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On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job.
and EG offers him something to fall back on while doing what he likes.
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On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat.
Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors.
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It's all about business people. It's not appropriate, but thats how the business is.
You dont expect everything to be fair in real life dont you, "this is not a game"
Alex is a clever business man, i'l leave it just like that.
I understand puma, working with no contract, come on, nothing guarantee his career.
and he could have a life of his dream, "who care's if his skill drop",
IF THIS IS WHAT'S HE WORKING SO HARD FOR !!
he dosent even know how long he can be in this business, what if 1 day he broke his hand.
Now what ?
And Mr.Wheat, thanks for the show, i really enjoy it. peace V
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On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat.
Exactly, progaming wont keep them off the streets if their team disolves and they don't have the results to pick up a fast team house.
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On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat.
Read what I originally said,
"Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world.
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On July 22 2011 10:37 Scribble wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:22 Taf the Ghost wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 Longshank wrote:
I'm usually a fan of Wheat but this episode was disgusting, I never thought I'd see him kiss someones butt like he did today.
"Yeah Alex, you know I agree with you but this is a topic for another time"
WTF wheat : / What's wrong with that? Sooner or later (Im guessing sooner) there is going to be a long serious pretty damn unpleasent discussion about the power / responsibility of TL and what exactly constitutes staff here and what the expectations for reporting Esports news are. But that's another issue for another day, it would take far longer then they had and completely drown out the purpose of tonights show to crack it open now. In certain jurisdictions of the EU, libel & slander laws a much loser than the USA. While Milkis' post and what was edited in weren't a problem, we're 1 step from it becoming a problem. This was technically Alex's point and it's going to be a BIG one in the future. However, Alex was really just ruminating about a power-dynamic (TL has the ability to drive a SC2 news cycle) that had Milkis right in the middle of it. So, either way you approach it, it's going to be viewed as an attack. It's really just something that impacts Alex's business, not really a problem Milkis has. Doesn't mean it wasn't a bit in bad form, really. Quoting this because you this is an important point. I'd also like to bring up that part of the accountability problem is that Milkis posted a translation with one side of the story as a news article which kicked off a controversy, made a bunch of condescending tweets, and then tweeted that he wanted to hear the other side of the story. I'm seeing a lot of people saying 'well, in defense of Milkis, he did ask for EG's response...' after the fact. This is just one in a series of recent issues that only covered one side of the story initially that kicked up a big stink because the authors didn't bother contacting both parties before any article was posted. And that is, imo, what Alex was talking about. We're raising shit storms by posting threads where both sides of the story aren't available in the OP at the time of posting and yet we don't see this as a big enough problem to start holding the OPs accountable? ...
The thing here is that Milkies did not post any news post. Milkis actually didn't release any information at all. As far as I can understand the post Milkis first posted contained only information that had already been released publicly from an official TSL source. Trying to in any way blame Milkis for simply relaying information that was already made public to the non-korean speaking sc2 community seems incredibly weird.
If this would have been information that had been released to Milkis in private and not been made public yet then yes, by all means he should have tried to check in with EG before releasing anything. In this case he didn't release anything, TSL did. All he did was made the publications available to people who can't read Korean.
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On July 22 2011 10:47 h3nG wrote:
Sh!t like this cannot continue...
The way I see it:
1. TSL provided PUMA the opportunity to Compete in close to the HARDEST tournament structure known to man and maybe make it to code s
2. PUMA wins a event thanks to flash
>>>>PUMA winning a event makes a name for himself
4. EG saw talent and asked if he would like more tournament exposure like Nasl, salary, and the chance to compete all over the world.
+ for PUMA
+ for EG
- for TSL
.
fixed
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On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:
Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job.
I had a dream once, it became my career. It's now also my shackle.
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On July 22 2011 10:47 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:45 nufcrulz wrote:
Also, why isnt EG's position on this in the OP as well. Why am i getting one sided views from the Korean side? Because this is a TRANSLATED ARTICLEBy the Korean website which dislikes this.
And because EG didn't released an official statement, as far as i know. (except the whole WOC thing)
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On July 22 2011 10:51 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. and EG offers him something to fall back on while doing what he likes.
But he loses all his practice partners and has to pay home and food for himself.
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On July 22 2011 10:39 Emporio wrote:
My question is: Why?
So I happen to be the first to see a tweet of potentially controversial news, I am responsible for investigating everything before being allowed to post a thread on it?
I was wondering this aswell. Did AG expect Milikis to not release his translations untill EG had responded, or what?
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On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors.
And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive?
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On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:51 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. and EG offers him something to fall back on while doing what he likes. But he loses all his practice partners and has to play home and food for himself.
You do realize EG is opening a team house right?
And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive?
Exactly my point, what happens when they are done progamming, is the team going to keep housing and feeding them or are they just SOL. Can't live and eat on respect.
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On July 22 2011 10:49 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:44 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:40 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. They are providing them with free food, housing, coachs and practice partners... Its not unreasonnable at all. What I find offensive and unreasonable is this belief that for some reason consent or notification should be provided by an employer hiring a person from another company. TSL_Puma wanted to leave his job, as he was being paid only in coaching and room and board, for another company, that gave him a better offer. This is standard in business, and no courtesy call would be expected, nor generally given. This belief that TSL was somehow robbed, neglects employee rights in favor of monopolistic employers(and any organization of companies, formal or informal, that prohibits free transfer of employees is monopolistic). Buisness-wise it is understandable. Ethically it is way less, especially if you take into account the cultural problem, and they should have taked it into account if they wanted to be respectful. I can understand that koreans are not happy about it.
I hold that it is thoroughly unethical to restrict an employee from taking a better offer, or expect yourselves as an employer to have any say in the matter.
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On July 22 2011 10:51 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:47 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:45 nufcrulz wrote:
Also, why isnt EG's position on this in the OP as well. Why am i getting one sided views from the Korean side? Because this is a TRANSLATED ARTICLEBy the Korean website which dislikes this. And because EG didn't released an official statement, as far as i know. (except the whole WOC thing)
Why would they? the deal was not complete. why announce the deal when it isnt a deal yet?
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Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
On 'but morally... Milk should have contacted EG': Who published the article? Milk or someone from PlayXP? Suggesting someone needs to contact both parties for a statement before posting a link (and a translation) of the primary source is completely bogus. AG asserting his position on journalistic integrity within TL at this point was timed to devalue Milk's stance - it was virtually irrelevant and borderline a smear campaign. Just because you preface a statement suggesting what you're about to say isn't meant to be such, does not, sir, make it so. K, moving on - I feel like that's pretty straightforward.
Milk: You should have contacted the coach, it's how it's done in Korea. The culture is different - it's always this way. (i.e. MANNER UP)
AG: The culture boundary between us and Korea exists, but needlessly - this is just how business is done in the international scene and further how we've done business for years. The Korean business model is incorrect and they need to be aware of ours.
This is the thin straw man Milk was referring to. To make it clear:
Your answer isn't a counter point to his. What you've done here is suggest that since your perspective/business model/culture is different, you're not at fault for offending the Korean community. Not only is this swiss-cheese weak but it is straw man fallacious.
M: The Korean culture is such that pride/honor/family is often involved even in business decisions. You offended them because you did not respect their cultural tradition of contacting coaches/management.
A: Their business model is weak, ours is better, they shouldn't be offended - they should understand where we're coming from.
M states A has ignored/offended Korean culture and this is bad for A.
A states Koreans don't have the correct business model for the growth of e-sports on an international scale.
The discussion in the the interview and the OP was not about the growth of e-sports or how to most efficiently run a progaming team. You've explained why you did what you did and then passed it off as a rebuttal to the claim that such cultural missteps are damaging to your company and its image. You offended the Korean community and then in an interview explained why their culture is wrong and hurting the growth of e-sports. Holy shit.
Also, I've loved djWheat for a while now - but this was awful. Don't have two people on for some kind of debate and then interject with your own views and speak over any of the participants.
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On July 22 2011 10:43 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. That's a dangerous road to go down if TL continues to be the news hub of western SC2, reporting one sided news as fact without checking your sources / both sides and then expecting the other side to do damage control with their PR team is going to result in a hell of a lot of unneeded drama, grudges and over all damage ESPORTS.
This post is not a journal, it's a translation.
Teamliquid is not a news site, it's a community site.
There is drama because EG made the move, not because TL decided to play it up to get attention.
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On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors.
...Did you even read the quote I was responding to or did you just see my post and spam the reply button?
Players being payed is a good thing, getting no pay and having no set contract means you're basically a slave to your team as you have no other options / no fallbacks.
If you need to leave the teamhouse for any reason then you have no job, no money, no shelter and no fallbacks, thats a shitty shitty model.
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On July 22 2011 10:52 Nausea wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors. And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive?
You could like... You know... Get another job?
Oh wait, that would be logical.
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Obviously EG has offered Puma more in some way. Think of it as a professional sport, a player will switch teams 99% of the time if they offer him more money/benefits. Not only is this a game, but it's a business and I feel extremely bad for the TSL team who raised him but they have to follow up and give him what he deserves with his good performance and obviously Puma felt he will be rewarded more greatly with EG.
Only question I have is where will Puma be staying now? Will he not be living in a practice environment? Will there be EG members setting up shop in Korea?
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EPT
