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On July 22 2011 10:28 Marsupian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:22 koreasilver wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 poorbeggarman wrote:On July 22 2011 10:06 pdd wrote:On July 22 2011 10:03 koreasilver wrote:On July 22 2011 10:00 nam nam wrote:On July 22 2011 09:58 VillageBC wrote:
milki's can't just hide behind the 'i'm just translating' label while at the same time slanting that translation with his bias. I don't care, I think EG is right.. Milki's is overly concerned with Korean culture and TL is ruining e-sports. If the translations is accurate he can say whatever he likes about it. You know like any of us. But to be fair, when Milkis then continues on to say things like "if you don't understand why this is such a big deal, then you just don't understand Korean culture" in a pretty condescending manner. It's obvious that Milkis was very biased in how he carried out the whole thing. His job was to present the Korean side of the story, which I disagree with. It's kind of time for Koreans to understand that SC2 is becoming globalized and start to protect their players as they're competing with foreign teams now. However I lost a ton of respect for AG when he started attacking Milkis for his post. It was unnecessary and Milkis, as a translator should only post a translation of what was put on ThisIsGame and PlayXP. Which is what he did. Other translators would have done the same. I disagree that he was "attacking" Milkis. AG clearly stated that his statement regarding the journalism thing was not accusatory. However, i don't think the main problem is with the whole reporting journalism thing, but the gullibility of some in the TL community, who make spontaneous decisions regarding an issue before hearing both sides of the story. lol, if prefacing an attack with a "not to accuse you but..." or a "no offense but..." makes the attack a non-attack, then every racist that prefaces their diatribe with a "not to be racist but..." isn't a racist. It's nonsense. I think Alex just chose the wrong words. What he wanted to achieve (and I agree with him on the matter) is to have people try to contact the parties involved before releasing this kind of information. I don't think people should be blamed when they don't but it would be nice if it would become common for people around here to try and contact the parties involved before release (when possible). Alex should have just asked Milkis to do this next time something like this happens as now it sounded like an accusation (which I think wasn't intentional). Milkis reacted really defensively and rather aggressive. He could just agree with Alex that it would have probably been a good move to contact him but just didn't think about the option or didn't know how to contact him. There is nothing wrong with that and I think it's in the best interest of this site and the whole community if we tried to approach all involved parties before something like this is posted (although I don't think it should be a requirement, just something that would be good to do). Edit: Also Alex didn't post a response afterwards (which he agrees was wrong) so he wasn't clean as well but that doesn't mean it's not a good thing to do before posting.
There is no responsibility on Milkis at all for simply translating something, which is as far as I understand it all that he did. TSL chose to issue a statement, Milkis translated it, absolutely no journalistic criteria applied or should apply. It concerns information that is out there already.
If it takes EG hours to get a statement out on something they could have seen coming weeks ago, that's their problem.
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On July 22 2011 10:39 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:32 Mordiford wrote:On July 22 2011 10:26 farvacola wrote:On July 22 2011 10:20 Senx wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 farvacola wrote:On July 22 2011 10:13 Senx wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!! AG won because Milkis was pushed off the starting line before the race even began. I felt really sorry for him, getting accused for lack of journalist etiquette and then being silenced by DJWheat as soon as he's about to say something about the subject and then gives AG another 5 minute rant. My god that was a complete slaughter... Milkis did nothing wrong in this whole thing, he tried to contact EG but didn't get any statement.
He posted a translation on a forum and gets this treatment.zz WRONG, have you been paying no attention? Milkis put his attempt at communication on twitter, a decidedly PUBLIC means of sending a message, usually meant more to be read by many then by a few, and you wonder why EG doesn't immediately respond? Have you no idea how public opinion works? Milkis effectively cut AG off at the very start, so quit your whining. So you mean EG doesn't read TL and can't PM milkis on twitter or here? Or just make a statement on their own? I'm really confused. Because I know they do read and post here. With obviously controversial news like this, a preemptive release of any information, even if in the mundane form a new topic on TL, is simply underhanded, in every sense of the word. Communication, even when in the form of a forum post or a twitter, is made strategic and meaningful given its time, place, and context, and there are ramifications as such. The immediate and unquestioning release of a translated news snippet from Korea without its affected parties being aware is not an honorable thing to do, especially in a case where cultural misunderstanding is likely to take place. I'd rather have the news as it happens, in most situations the other party will give it's information immediately as a response as is necessary. FXOBoss is just one example of someone who is immediately there to comment on anything regarding FXO and I have a lot of respect for him because of it, Jason Lake will often comment on things regarding Complexity... It's not hard. SirScoots got a message on twitter from Milkis 16+ hours ago, we've seen managers and players respond within minutes. It's silly to hold Milkis to journalistic standards and completely ignore the dynamic of the community, everyone is coming to the same thread for information, it's not like I'm reading a New York Times article once and then never looking up the company they talked about because I trust the source. Here, that company can pretty release a statement in the exact same format as Milkis on the exact same site, getting the exact same traffic and reaching the same audience. It's not like some stupid Facebook comments at the bottom of a News Article, EG has the exact same tools. Milkis gets a post, EG gets a post, everyone in the community gets to post. In the end, it comes down to a simple truth. Posting an emotional translated piece of a coaches reaction to breaking news instead of sending it privately to the affected parties for fact checking is shortsighted and stupid journalistic rules notwithstanding, I'm talking basic common courtesy.
It came from PlayXP so if you want to make that blame, it goes on the person who actually posted it. Not on Milkis or any other translator who ensures that we get important KR news almost as post haste as Koreans.
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On July 22 2011 10:38 Marsupian wrote:
I just can't see how you can blame EG in any way.
- Puma doesn't have a contract and is therefor a free player
- EG approaches him and asks him if he is interested in signing
- Puma is interested and will talk to his coach to talk to him and tell him he wants to leave
- Coach gets mad he lost one of his players (understandable but his own fault for not contracting him)
- EG did something wrong?????
I just don't see it. It's a free market and players should be allowed to sign with whichever team they want unless contracted (in which case a transfer fee or buyout price has to be paid).
btw. On the whole Alex vs Milkis argument: Alex didn't blame Milkis for not contacting him but commented that he thinks it should be common practice to contact all parties involved. He agreed that he was also wrong for not posting his side himself. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be common procedure to contact involved parties in the future.
Have to agree, also Milkis went ahead and posted half the story as it happened and then didn't expect some backlash, seems short sighted. If you want to be "on the top" of the news but only post one half of the story don't try and back out by saying oh well after I made one party look bad I tried to talk to them so they can defend themselves.
Unbiased reporting wouldn't require them defending themselves in the first place because both sides of the story would be in the original report sans bias.
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On July 22 2011 10:38 Marsupian wrote:
btw. On the whole Alex vs Milkis argument: Alex didn't blame Milkis for not contacting him but commented that he thinks it should be common practice to contact all parties involved. He agreed that he was also wrong for not posting his side himself. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be common procedure to contact involved parties in the future.
If Milkis was writing an article / opinion piece on the situation, I agree. He should go out and contact both sides of whatever story he's running before posting any article.
But, if Milkis is just translating what an article said with no personal opinion at all then he doesn't need to contact anyone. He's just translating an article for the community.
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On July 22 2011 10:36 dcsoda wrote:
I'm not sure EG could have done anything to help this after the story was posted. People on here have been hating on EG well before this and any statement/thread from them would probably be decried as more lies by those people wouldn't it? Once the original story is posted people make up their minds and it's very very difficult to change them once that happens.
It seems insulting to me to hear that most Korean teams are being run this way when they have pioneered all of the measures to prevent this situation occurring with the BW scene. I'm curious how widespread the TSL attitude is in Korea or if they were just under very poor management? I have a hard time believing IM or OGS would be so cavalier with their relationship with their team members.
There's no doubt in question is something fundamentally is wrong at the TSL/how it's run. They've had 4 people(including Puma) all leave within a short time. There was a interview with ogs spunky(no idea what his role is now at OGS) at giantbomb.com(lol mainstream gaming website) but he did say when they recruit players for their team it's not something they do half assed but they place a lot of thought into it as if for some reason they fail to deliver(they aren't good) that they just kick them out of the house 2 weeks later. I'd imagine TSL and all of the other korean pro gamer team/houses have a similar mentality. We haven't heard of 4 people leaving other teams within a short period of time from the other teams so i'd imagine it's some kind of internal problem at TSL.
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well this thread is just one giant shit fest isn't it.
from what i can tell, this WoC went terribly, poor Milkis.
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On July 22 2011 10:38 Marsupian wrote:
I just can't see how you can blame EG in any way.
- Puma doesn't have a contract and is therefor a free player
- EG approaches him and asks him if he is interested in signing
- Puma is interested and will talk to his coach to talk to him and tell him he wants to leave
- Coach gets mad he lost one of his players (understandable but his own fault for not contracting him)
- EG did something wrong?????
IMO one thing they did wrong was not making a public statement, and instead going on a podscast bashing a great communitymember doing volountary translating for all of us.
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On July 22 2011 10:41 Kazeyonoma wrote:
well this thread is just one giant shit fest isn't it.
from what i can tell, this WoC went terribly, poor Milkis.
I kinda feel bad for him, he was way out of his element and was pretty much ganged up on.
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Well one good thing this thread has shown is that people really care about the growth of ESPORTS and are passionate about it, even though there are lots of things to disagree about.
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So Puma wanted to be the first to talk to his coach,, makes sense,,i would wanna do the same thing. This is not the korean way and somewhere in between this something sorta got scrambled.
I hope Alex and Lee will release a unified public statement after having spoken to eachother. It's the only way this can truly be solved.
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Well now EG has a player that will do well in Korea
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On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation.
That's a dangerous road to go down if TL continues to be the news hub of western SC2, reporting one sided news as fact without checking your sources / both sides and then expecting the other side to do damage control with their PR team is going to result in a hell of a lot of unneeded drama, grudges and over all damage ESPORTS.
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On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation.
How would TL feel if we just started posting baseless accusations in the sidebar as facts? This isn't that big, but there was certainly misinformation involved, that Puma was already signed (he isn't). TL in general prides itself on the quality of it's posts, something it has control over due to the moderation of the forum and rumors without fact checking or seeking statements should be the basis of a quality post about breaking news.
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On July 22 2011 10:40 Marsupian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:38 StarStruck wrote:
Something needs to change in the International scene.
I think we need a free agency period like the other professional organizations. The fact A.G. admitted that a lot of the International multi-gaming teams go out of there way to schmooze and prod players already on other teams is baffling. I know it was happening in the BW days, but we lacked the structure. When players are under contract they should respect those contracts, otherwise there should be penalties to not only the players, but the organizations as well. -_- The thing is Puma wasn't under a contract so he was a free agent. The thing that needs to change is that teams should either offer their players a contract and if they can't/don't want or the player doesn't want to sign they should accept the fact that they are free to leave. It's really that simple.
That's been said over 900 times already. I've made 20 posts in this thread alone. I'm talking about the whole picture. All the teams would benefit if they had a free agency period.
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On July 22 2011 10:41 Kazeyonoma wrote:
well this thread is just one giant shit fest isn't it.
from what i can tell, this WoC went terribly, poor Milkis.
yeah poor guy I don't even know why he was even on the show. Ideally you'd want Coach Lee on the show but due to the language barriers i'd imagine it would have been a recipe for disaster, especially on such short notice as the story isn't even 1 day old.
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On July 22 2011 10:40 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. They are providing them with free food, housing, coachs and practice partners... Its not unreasonnable at all.
What I find offensive and unreasonable is this belief that for some reason consent or notification should be provided by an employer hiring a person from another company. TSL_Puma wanted to leave his job, as he was being paid only in coaching and room and board, for another company, that gave him a better offer. This is standard in business, and no courtesy call would be expected, nor generally given. This belief that TSL was somehow robbed, neglects employee rights in favor of monopolistic employers(and any organization of companies, formal or informal, that prohibits free transfer of employees is monopolistic).
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On July 22 2011 10:43 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. That's a dangerous road to go down if TL continues to be the news hub of western SC2, reporting one sided news as fact without checking your sources / both sides and then expecting the other side to do damage control with their PR team is going to result in a hell of a lot of unneeded drama, grudges and over all damage ESPORTS.
That is something to take up with the TL management not Milkis.
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On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players.
Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world.
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On July 22 2011 10:43 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. How would TL feel if we just started posting baseless accusations in the sidebar as facts? This isn't that big, but there was certainly misinformation involved, that Puma was already signed (he isn't). TL in general prides itself on the quality of it's posts, something it has control over due to the moderation of the forum and rumors without fact checking or seeking statements should be the basis of a quality post about breaking news.
That's where the ban hammer and closed thread comes in. The staff members are pretty fast when it comes down to shit like that.
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EPT
