EPTPuma leaves TSL for EG - Page 300
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KevinBacon
Portugal48 Posts
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Scribble
2077 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:22 Taf the Ghost wrote: In certain jurisdictions of the EU, libel & slander laws a much loser than the USA. While Milkis' post and what was edited in weren't a problem, we're 1 step from it becoming a problem. This was technically Alex's point and it's going to be a BIG one in the future. However, Alex was really just ruminating about a power-dynamic (TL has the ability to drive a SC2 news cycle) that had Milkis right in the middle of it. So, either way you approach it, it's going to be viewed as an attack. It's really just something that impacts Alex's business, not really a problem Milkis has. Doesn't mean it wasn't a bit in bad form, really. Quoting this because you this is an important point. I'd also like to bring up that part of the accountability problem is that Milkis posted a translation with one side of the story as a news article which kicked off a controversy, made a bunch of condescending tweets, and then tweeted that he wanted to hear the other side of the story. I'm seeing a lot of people saying 'well, in defense of Milkis, he did ask for EG's response...' after the fact. This is just one in a series of recent issues that only covered one side of the story initially that kicked up a big stink because the authors didn't bother contacting both parties before any article was posted. And that is, imo, what Alex was talking about. We're raising shit storms by posting threads where both sides of the story aren't available in the OP at the time of posting and yet we don't see this as a big enough problem to start holding the OPs accountable? The EG Master Cup thread a while back is another example of this. The OP presented one side of the story, folks got half of the information necessary to form a rational and educated opinion, shit got out of hand quickly, and EG had to come into the thread to explain their side of the story and do damage control because of how out of hand things got. And why did that happen? Because instead of waiting for both sides of the story to come out, the thread was just posted off-the-cuff. I don't think every single member of the community needs to be a journalist to post "Xyz team changes logo!" (a source is fine), but for a major issue like this that has the potential to be a big controversy, the OP has a responsibility to reach out to the involved parties before publishing a one-sided post that could be damaging to the party/parties he or she failed to contact. Reaching out on twitter AFTER THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE shouldn't be considered acceptable. Edit: Didn't realize I got so long-winded there. The short: It's one thing to post a random news article about, say, fOu becoming FXO Korea with a playxp cited and not contact anyone to confirm the details. It's another to post something that at best has the potential to be damaging and at worst is outright inflammatory without making an earnest effort to contact both parties before any article is posted. | ||
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poorbeggarman
139 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:29 pdd wrote: I can say that my statement is not meant to undermine AG although it frankly is (and even I have to admit that). It's just a thinly veiled accusation. There were a lot of ways AG could have said it. He could have said it the way that you said it, questioning TL's policy, etc. But he chose to specifically hurl the question at Milkis, who's not a staff member on TL (I think). Saying "no offense" before saying something offensive doesnt make it not offensive. It's not how it works. Well, I can see how his statement can still be viewed as offensive to Milkis. But I do also think that he has a valid point. If translations have both sides of the story, discussion quality would improve. | ||
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RagnaRock
Poland76 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Charger
United States2405 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:29 Mioraka wrote: LOL he explained how his questions weren't accusatory the same way a man explains he doesn't mean to hurt you when he thrusts a broadsword into your asshole. Oh come on! If anyone is the blademaster for EG it's clearly Scoots - I mean the guy has a cane sword. Get your facts straight. + Show Spoiler +  | ||
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esotericc
449 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote: I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future. I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. | ||
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yoshi_yoshi
United States440 Posts
(Again, according to AG,) Puma requested to be the one to break the news to TSL coach. EG's default action would have been to contact TSL. This all makes sense: - Puma thought TSL would take the news better coming from him than from a stranger - EG decided that Puma knows more about proper conduct in Korea and deferred to his decision However, based on TSL coach's blowup, Puma apparently did not handle telling him well. | ||
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shavi
United States127 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:31 Earll wrote: He didn't get up in milkis grill about not getting a statement, he said that like literally 15 times. "I am not blaming\accusing you of anything." he said that exact statement SO many times. he was merely saying that he COULD have contacted EG. and had milkis wanted a nonbiased post\thread about it, then he SHOULD have obviosuly gotten statements from both sides, not just the Coach lee side. He did not, which is fine too. But getting all up in EG's grill because they say "hey why didnt you try to get both sides of the story" is pretty meh. To me Milkis came off somewhat bad, trying to throw sort of petty jabs at alex and making what to me seemed like unrelated comments at times, whereas alex tried to explain the situation. Milkis didn't get statements from either side. The Coach Lee addition was made by Waxangel I believe, NOT by Milkis. And Milkis was trying to make a point to the effect of Coach Lee isn't a TL member, nor a member of the english speaking community, but was cut off by djWHEAT. He didn't see this thread or read the twitter posts. EG did, and decided to stay quiet about the whole thing until they could get on their show to defend themselves. The only reason his response is even on here is because there was no other vessel for us to receive his message, whereas there were numerous ways EG could have shined light on the situation but decided not to. | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:35 meep wrote: because all that matters is having people reply to you it is nice to have people care about what you're saying | ||
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PHC
United States472 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote: It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote: I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future. This is pretty much what Milkis explained, both parties agreed that it's a wake up call for Koreans. Now, with the belief that foreign teams aren't going to play by the same rules so they need to lock shit down and draw up some contracts. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
I think we need a free agency period like the other professional organizations. The fact A.G. admitted that a lot of the International multi-gaming teams go out of there way to schmooze and prod players already on other teams is baffling. I know it was happening in the BW days, but we lacked the structure. When players are under contract they should respect those contracts, otherwise there should be penalties to not only the players, but the organizations as well. -_- | ||
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Marsupian
Netherlands455 Posts
- Puma doesn't have a contract and is therefor a free player - EG approaches him and asks him if he is interested in signing - Puma is interested and will talk to his coach to talk to him and tell him he wants to leave - Coach gets mad he lost one of his players (understandable but his own fault for not contracting him) - EG did something wrong????? I just don't see it. It's a free market and players should be allowed to sign with whichever team they want unless contracted (in which case a transfer fee or buyout price has to be paid). btw. On the whole Alex vs Milkis argument: Alex didn't blame Milkis for not contacting him but commented that he thinks it should be common practice to contact all parties involved. He agreed that he was also wrong for not posting his side himself. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be common procedure to contact involved parties in the future. | ||
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Nausea
Sweden807 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:35 turdburgler wrote: this is going to be really vulgar but here we go + Show Spoiler + you're a fucking cunt i think black people look funny women stay in the kitchen aids is for fags (i dont actually mean any of this) look, now you're feelings are hurt, but who cares right?!?! Ofcourse i don't want the man to be hurt, but it doesnt realy matter in a business perspective. It's business. | ||
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Emporio
United States3069 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:37 Scribble wrote: Quoting this because you this is an important point. I'd also like to bring up that part of the accountability problem is that Milkis posted a translation with one side of the story as a news article which kicked off a controversy, made a bunch of condescending tweets, and then tweeted that he wanted to hear the other side of the story. I'm seeing a lot of people saying 'well, in defense of Milkis, he did ask for EG's response...' after the fact. This is just one in a series of recent issues that only covered one side of the story initially that kicked up a big stink because the authors didn't bother contacting both parties before any article was posted. And that is, imo, what Alex was talking about. We're raising shit storms by posting threads where both sides of the story aren't available in the OP at the time of posting and yet we don't see this as a big enough problem to start holding the OPs accountable? The EG Master Cup thread a while back is another example of this. The OP presented one side of the story, folks got half of the information necessary to form a rational and educated opinion, shit got out of hand quickly, and EG had to come into the thread to explain their side of the story and do damage control because of how out of hand things got. And why did that happen? Because instead of waiting for both sides of the story to come out, the thread was just posted off-the-cuff. I don't think every single member of the community needs to be a journalist to post "Xyz team changes logo!" (a source is fine), but for a major issue like this that has the potential to be a big controversy, the OP has a responsibility to reach out to the involved parties before publishing a one-sided post that could be damaging to the party/parties he or she failed to contact. Reaching out on twitter AFTER THE DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE shouldn't be considered acceptable. My question is: Why? So I happen to be the first to see a tweet of potentially controversial news, I am responsible for investigating everything before being allowed to post a thread on it? | ||
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
Requirement to inform for inquiries (i.e. tell us if someone is asking), and Right to Match (they're allowed to match any written offers the other team makes). That'd solve most of this issue. The KeSPA contracts, from what people mention, are horrible, but you don't have to make them KeSPA contracts. Also, while I can appreciate what the Korean teams are on about, they *are* companies and this *is* a business. They need at least basic contracts. | ||
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farvacola
United States18874 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:32 Mordiford wrote: I'd rather have the news as it happens, in most situations the other party will give it's information immediately as a response as is necessary. FXOBoss is just one example of someone who is immediately there to comment on anything regarding FXO and I have a lot of respect for him because of it, Jason Lake will often comment on things regarding Complexity... It's not hard. SirScoots got a message on twitter from Milkis 16+ hours ago, we've seen managers and players respond within minutes. It's silly to hold Milkis to journalistic standards and completely ignore the dynamic of the community, everyone is coming to the same thread for information, it's not like I'm reading a New York Times article once and then never looking up the company they talked about because I trust the source. Here, that company can pretty release a statement in the exact same format as Milkis on the exact same site, getting the exact same traffic and reaching the same audience. It's not like some stupid Facebook comments at the bottom of a News Article, EG has the exact same tools. Milkis gets a post, EG gets a post, everyone in the community gets to post. In the end, it comes down to a simple truth. Posting an emotional translated piece of a coaches reaction to breaking news instead of sending it privately to the affected parties for fact checking is shortsighted and stupid journalistic rules notwithstanding, I'm talking basic common courtesy. | ||
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Twoinches
United States131 Posts
A- he didnt write the article B- he didnt source anything (who blindly does that and wants to be taken seriously?) C- he only tried to contact Scoots about this and when that didnt work once it was EG's Fault even though Puma had not been Signed yet and most press releases dont come till something is official. Milkis had no place on the show what so ever if the only info he had was from a article he translated. | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote: I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. They are providing them with free food, housing, coachs and practice partners... Its not unreasonnable at all. | ||
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Marsupian
Netherlands455 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:38 StarStruck wrote: Something needs to change in the International scene. I think we need a free agency period like the other professional organizations. The fact A.G. admitted that a lot of the International multi-gaming teams go out of there way to schmooze and prod players already on other teams is baffling. I know it was happening in the BW days, but we lacked the structure. When players are under contract they should respect those contracts, otherwise there should be penalties to not only the players, but the organizations as well. -_- The thing is Puma wasn't under a contract so he was a free agent. The thing that needs to change is that teams should either offer their players a contract and if they can't/don't want or the player doesn't want to sign they should accept the fact that they are free to leave. It's really that simple. | ||
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