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On July 22 2011 10:27 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:26 poorbeggarman wrote:On July 22 2011 10:20 pdd wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 poorbeggarman wrote:On July 22 2011 10:06 pdd wrote:On July 22 2011 10:03 koreasilver wrote:On July 22 2011 10:00 nam nam wrote:On July 22 2011 09:58 VillageBC wrote:
milki's can't just hide behind the 'i'm just translating' label while at the same time slanting that translation with his bias. I don't care, I think EG is right.. Milki's is overly concerned with Korean culture and TL is ruining e-sports. If the translations is accurate he can say whatever he likes about it. You know like any of us. But to be fair, when Milkis then continues on to say things like "if you don't understand why this is such a big deal, then you just don't understand Korean culture" in a pretty condescending manner. It's obvious that Milkis was very biased in how he carried out the whole thing. His job was to present the Korean side of the story, which I disagree with. It's kind of time for Koreans to understand that SC2 is becoming globalized and start to protect their players as they're competing with foreign teams now. However I lost a ton of respect for AG when he started attacking Milkis for his post. It was unnecessary and Milkis, as a translator should only post a translation of what was put on ThisIsGame and PlayXP. Which is what he did. Other translators would have done the same. I disagree that he was "attacking" Milkis. AG clearly stated that his statement regarding the journalism thing was not accusatory. However, i don't think the main problem is with the whole reporting journalism thing, but the gullibility of some in the TL community, who make spontaneous decisions regarding an issue before hearing both sides of the story. Then wouldn't it be EG's responsibility to quell the shitstorm? Or PlayXP/TIS/TSL's fault for somewhat inaccurate reports? Why put the blame on Milkis? Again: I disagree that he was "attacking" Milkis. AG clearly stated that his statement regarding the journalism thing was not accusatory.-Meaning, he wasn't blaming Milkis for anything.
He just said that, there needs to be some kind of standard to translations of official posts from korea, like hearing both sides of the story, since it may affect gaming organizations, players, etc. Saying "no offense" before saying something offensive doesnt make it not offensive. It's not how it works.
Agreed. He brings up another argument to try to cover up the one at hand. Also to say that is to say something like, "I don't mean to to make you fall but i am going to pull the rug from under your feet."
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all the people saying " shame on wheat for ganging up on milkis" what did he bring to the table?
you all pointed out he is ONLY a translator. so him even being on the show boggles the mind.
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On July 22 2011 10:29 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:28 Takezou wrote:On July 22 2011 10:26 pdd wrote:
Ultimately this comes down to a conflict between 2 things:
Business vs Culture
Korean e-sports mentality vs International esports mentality.
Both sides made mistakes but I can't say there's anyone who's really at fault here. What the two sides need to do is adapt to this experience. EG (and other foreign teams) to be more culturally sensitive and TSL (and other Korean teams) to be more competitive in terms of incentives and sponsorships.
IMO the biggest loser here is ultimately Puma, who no doubt has lost a lot of fans and his practice partners in Korea due this drama. I really hope that is not the case. At least on TL it seems (just from what i can see) that people are not blaming him in anyway. Hopefully, it doesn't do him any harm. I understand that the Korean netizens are extremely disappointed in him.
If true that sucks ><
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On July 22 2011 10:25 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:22 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:20 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:19 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:15 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:13 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Goldfish wrote:On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)? HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount. The point is what they were not giving him: a salary. They may have been providing a training environment, but EG is offering a training environment and a salary. Its not EG's fault that TSL is either unwilling or unable to compensate their players properly. "training environment" is pretty laughable. If EG was serious they would have their team actually training instead of traveling doing casting / streaming shows etc. They could have had a training house up 8 months ago if serious. Fact is the koreans are ahead of the game and instead of doing it themselves they simply tried to poach players. After Puma that wont work with korea contracting every player. That is beside the point though. The point is that it is better for the player, or at least he felt it was a better decision to take EG's offer. We are talking about business here, not high school football. If your employees are under-performing, you fire them and replace them with employees from other businesses, who are making less then you are currently offering. You don't give a courtesy call or beg for permission, you hire them, and the employees and your business both profit. No-one begrudges that, and TSL is living in a fantasy world if they think they have any say over the dealings of an unsigned, unpaid player, and other teams. listen everyone knows its a business move. IT's a business move when health insurance says "nope we wont cover this life saving operation because we dont have to" It doesnt make it any less unethical. TSL learned their lesson and so did all of korea and will not be sending players internationally without contracts, expect a crazy contract wave to happen before the next MLG. How is it unethical to offer someone more money for doing a job, let alone someone who was not even being paid? He had just been paid 50,000 dollars btw. Before EG from the training/work TSL put in making him better. The fact is the unethical part came in when TSL had been training him, feeding him, and housing him for 10 months. It's fair to say that hes a product of that environment and they did expect him to stay with them and work together. TSL has been a pretty upstanding team and the first in korea with salaries. The fact they put that effort/time/money into a player and when he first gets exposure he leaves is pretty underhanded. It's overall good for Puma but it could have been handled better and with more cooperation with TSL instead of underhandedly. Basically it was all honor code in Korea and now it will go to tight contracts thanks to this. Trust me when I say koreans know how to write contracts.
How is it underhanded? It is standard business, and it benefits the employees. If anything is unethical it is non-compete contracts, like the sort that are now going to pop up to protect the employers at the expense of the employees. Contracts of that sort are actually illegal/unenforceable in many states within the US.
In business it is standard to loss lead new hires for training. Do you think the company that hires you out of college for 55,000 or whatever, is going to make that back from you in your first year? No, they will not usually get that productivity out of you, when you cost in training expenses. Once you start performing they raise your salary, or some other company hires you. They don't go through the bother of contacting your employer, nor is there a presumption that they should: if your employer valued your employment properly, they would pay you more.
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On July 22 2011 10:28 Nausea wrote:
- Puma will now get payed for doing what he loves. (somehow this is a bad thing)
NOBODY is arguing that was Puma did is a bad thing. Stop making up nonsense.
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On July 22 2011 10:26 Delinius wrote:
I don't hate EG as a team, but Alex can go eat a bag of sand.
well that's a bit rude.
i personally don't understand why Alex keeps making statements. every time he goes on one of these shows to explain EG's stance on whatever issue surround them is, i just end up hating EG more. but whenever scoots goes on a djWheat show and just states the facts and his opinions straight up, i love EG. it's like Alex is a PR person that does nothing but hurt the team's image. i guess scoots doesn't feel the same way though.
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On July 22 2011 10:24 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:18 shavi wrote:
Again, I don't have a problem with EG acquiring a player from any team. I just find it rather disrespectful to not even talk to the team regarding a player you're talking to. Obviously it was pretty dumb not to have him contracted (but it's not like that would have mattered, EG would have still gotten him I'm assuming), but the fact that they didn't even try to contact TSL. Am I the only one who finds it disrespectful and disgusting to approach the team of an unsigned player asking for permission to talk to them? Puma is not TSL property as much as people want to believe it. You're wrong. TSL wanted to be informed of the process. No team appreciates being hit by a player's departure out of the blue.
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- A korean mans feelings were hurt. (somehow this matters)
The big thing is it doesn't matter, everyone here just seems to think it does because korea = amazing to them.
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On July 22 2011 10:26 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:24 VillageBC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 shavi wrote:
Again, I don't have a problem with EG acquiring a player from any team. I just find it rather disrespectful to not even talk to the team regarding a player you're talking to. Obviously it was pretty dumb not to have him contracted (but it's not like that would have mattered, EG would have still gotten him I'm assuming), but the fact that they didn't even try to contact TSL. Am I the only one who finds it disrespectful and disgusting to approach the team of an unsigned player asking for permission to talk to them? Puma is not TSL property as much as people want to believe it. What the fuck...? It's not about him being property, he's still a living asset, someone that they've invested in and built upon.
It's like you growing apple on a tree. The apple and tree obviously doesn't have any contract with you. But it's on your land, so others just can't go in your garden and pick it, then say you don't have any legal right to stop me.
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I can understand their plight, but TSL also lost some players to other Korean teams. How was this issued received by the koreans? Or did people just blow up because he joined a foreign team?
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On July 22 2011 09:59 gurrpp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 09:57 zoLo wrote:On July 22 2011 09:55 saint_d wrote:On July 22 2011 09:53 StarStruck wrote:On July 22 2011 09:52 chipmonklord17 wrote:On July 22 2011 09:51 StutteR wrote:On July 22 2011 09:50 Corrosive wrote:
Milkis getting defensive for no reason. AG is dumping a bunch of bullshit on him. This is not on Milkis. EG needs to take care of its own PR problems. Don't blame the community. Don't blame a valued member of our community. Nothing is bullshit about what he's saying. Milkis has brought up multple sources to confirm the transfer and none of them were EG. It's EG's job to post a Press Statement for f sake. /facepalm It's EG's job to post a press statement about them maybe picking up a player? It is. If you follow news from other teams, they often post a press statement about acquiring a player. EG recently picked up floe, Choco Blanka, and Momochi and they even put out a statement, but for some reason they didn't for Puma. Because they haven't even signed him yet. Still, it doesn't really give them an excuse to get up in milkis' grill for not seeking a statement from eg.
He didn't get up in milkis grill about not getting a statement, he said that like literally 15 times. "I am not blaming\accusing you of anything." he said that exact statement SO many times. he was merely saying that he COULD have contacted EG. and had milkis wanted a nonbiased post\thread about it, then he SHOULD have obviosuly gotten statements from both sides, not just the Coach lee side. He did not, which is fine too. But getting all up in EG's grill because they say "hey why didnt you try to get both sides of the story" is pretty meh. To me Milkis came off somewhat bad, trying to throw sort of petty jabs at alex and making what to me seemed like unrelated comments at times, whereas alex tried to explain the situation.
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On July 22 2011 10:29 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:28 Takezou wrote:On July 22 2011 10:26 pdd wrote:
Ultimately this comes down to a conflict between 2 things:
Business vs Culture
Korean e-sports mentality vs International esports mentality.
Both sides made mistakes but I can't say there's anyone who's really at fault here. What the two sides need to do is adapt to this experience. EG (and other foreign teams) to be more culturally sensitive and TSL (and other Korean teams) to be more competitive in terms of incentives and sponsorships.
IMO the biggest loser here is ultimately Puma, who no doubt has lost a lot of fans and his practice partners in Korea due this drama. I really hope that is not the case. At least on TL it seems (just from what i can see) that people are not blaming him in anyway. Hopefully, it doesn't do him any harm. I understand that the Korean netizens are extremely disappointed in him.
and this same community is posting pictures of Slayer's Eve photoshopped onto bodies of porn stars. They can have their own opinion but it doesn't make them right either.
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On July 22 2011 10:27 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:17 tuho12345 wrote:
Puma didn't have any contract with TSL because that's how Asian culture work. They base on ethnic and trust, not a legal paper. You guys probably haven't seen Chinese ppl borrow millions dollars from others with just a single word right? And this is a good way to get screwed over in the real world where money and contracts actually mean something. Sick of the Korean ass kissing that goes on in this community.
That is why they are going to 'do something about it' now so they wont get screw over in the future. I just feel that this will hurt any future foreign team trying to aquire Korean players.
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On July 22 2011 10:25 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:22 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:20 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:19 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:15 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:13 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Goldfish wrote:On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)? HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount. The point is what they were not giving him: a salary. They may have been providing a training environment, but EG is offering a training environment and a salary. Its not EG's fault that TSL is either unwilling or unable to compensate their players properly. "training environment" is pretty laughable. If EG was serious they would have their team actually training instead of traveling doing casting / streaming shows etc. They could have had a training house up 8 months ago if serious. Fact is the koreans are ahead of the game and instead of doing it themselves they simply tried to poach players. After Puma that wont work with korea contracting every player. That is beside the point though. The point is that it is better for the player, or at least he felt it was a better decision to take EG's offer. We are talking about business here, not high school football. If your employees are under-performing, you fire them and replace them with employees from other businesses, who are making less then you are currently offering. You don't give a courtesy call or beg for permission, you hire them, and the employees and your business both profit. No-one begrudges that, and TSL is living in a fantasy world if they think they have any say over the dealings of an unsigned, unpaid player, and other teams. listen everyone knows its a business move. IT's a business move when health insurance says "nope we wont cover this life saving operation because we dont have to" It doesnt make it any less unethical. TSL learned their lesson and so did all of korea and will not be sending players internationally without contracts, expect a crazy contract wave to happen before the next MLG. How is it unethical to offer someone more money for doing a job, let alone someone who was not even being paid? He had just been paid 50,000 dollars btw. Before EG from the training/work TSL put in making him better. The fact is the unethical part came in when TSL had been training him, feeding him, and housing him for 10 months. It's fair to say that hes a product of that environment and they did expect him to stay with them and work together. TSL has been a pretty upstanding team and the first in korea with salaries. The fact they put that effort/time/money into a player and when he first gets exposure he leaves is pretty underhanded. It's overall good for Puma but it could have been handled better and with more cooperation with TSL instead of underhandedly. Basically it was all honor code in Korea and now it will go to tight contracts thanks to this. Trust me when I say koreans know how to write contracts.
i dont understand this logic, so when is puma allowed to leave if he wanted to? cause you're saying he won because of TSL's food/training etc, so as long as he keeps winning, he can't leave? would he have to go into a funk and then he can leave cause he's not pulling his weight?
this first in korea to pay thing... i swear i heard in the conversation that puma wasn't being paid. maybe im wrong
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On July 22 2011 10:29 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:27 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:17 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 10:15 dacthehork wrote:On July 22 2011 10:13 InvalidID wrote:On July 22 2011 10:12 Goldfish wrote:On July 22 2011 10:07 Mohdoo wrote:
DJWheat confirming the massive culture gap >_<
"Its all about the individual, not the team who made him who he is!" I'm confused, is that discrediting team practice (In context)? HuK (for example) wouldn't as good today if it wasn't for the oGs house and team practice. Also TSL did provide Puma with free food, housing, practice partners, and they keep 100% of their tournament winnings. Who knows how much TSL contributed to Puma's skills but they probably at least contributed some amount. The point is what they were not giving him: a salary. They may have been providing a training environment, but EG is offering a training environment and a salary. Its not EG's fault that TSL is either unwilling or unable to compensate their players properly. "training environment" is pretty laughable. If EG was serious they would have their team actually training instead of traveling doing casting / streaming shows etc. They could have had a training house up 8 months ago if serious. Fact is the koreans are ahead of the game and instead of doing it themselves they simply tried to poach players. After Puma that wont work with korea contracting every player. streaming and stuff is how u make money from sponsors. do u think sponsors would pay shit if they never got exposure other than live events every 3 months? maybe that is why no korean sponsors pay the teams, cause they dont get them enough exposure http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201086TSL had sponsored players that they did pay. from what i heard, they said puma wasn't paid. so i guess only select players were being paid? whereas foreign team, everyone is paid (i hope), EG pays all their players at least. what im saying is, they dont get paid enough, i dont assume to know the reason, but i think exposure might be a good start cause u dont see SC2 players live other than GSL events mostly. i dunno the streaming community in korea, i do know some have started to stream on justin.tv and that creates exposure for sure and the foreign scene have embraced streaming without a doubt. They fed, housed, and trained him for a long time. That's more support than EG gives most of their players, especially BW ones who only got product I heard. Fact is that is money/time/effort. They felt they didnt need a contract and none of the teams in korea did. Now that will become the standard and korea will be more closed off / distrustful of sending players overseas if EG is going to make them huge offers if they do well.
Or instead they will emulate the likes of oGs and fOu and go about setting up intelligent business deals.
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On July 22 2011 10:26 Sky0 wrote:
sorry everyone but this is about making money, not i play 10 hrs a day for a team that doesn't pay me. Im pretty sure in any culture working for no pay is culturally accepted. Puma has to make a living just like everyone else. Maybe hes just looking out for himself just like everyone else in the world. I bet pumas not losing any sleep at night cause a few people on playxp and tl are butt hurt cause hes not doing the honorable thing and working for no money!!!!
heres the problem. in eastern culture business is synonymous with relationship. by being on TSL, and having that working relationship, he was as good as signed in every koreans eyes. obviously with sc2 being relatively weak (in business) they couldnt afford to pay him, and for them it made no sense to waste money writing up a contract. they had this working relationship and that is how it worked. TSL is also ok with buying and selling these players who are in their team, obviously its not that simple since theres no official contract, but in the eastern world they would of prefered to come to some kind of an agreement. either just some time to find a replacement or even as little as the fair warning so they felt puma and TSL could leave on good terms.
now thanks to the way things have turned out it has been difficult for them to part how they would of liked to part. maybe coach lee and puma are still good friends maybe not, it doesnt even matter. the point is that eastern business culture is so vastly different to western that 'he wasnt contracted' isnt as simple a fact as it might seem
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On July 22 2011 10:30 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:29 babylon wrote:On July 22 2011 10:28 Takezou wrote:On July 22 2011 10:26 pdd wrote:
Ultimately this comes down to a conflict between 2 things:
Business vs Culture
Korean e-sports mentality vs International esports mentality.
Both sides made mistakes but I can't say there's anyone who's really at fault here. What the two sides need to do is adapt to this experience. EG (and other foreign teams) to be more culturally sensitive and TSL (and other Korean teams) to be more competitive in terms of incentives and sponsorships.
IMO the biggest loser here is ultimately Puma, who no doubt has lost a lot of fans and his practice partners in Korea due this drama. I really hope that is not the case. At least on TL it seems (just from what i can see) that people are not blaming him in anyway. Hopefully, it doesn't do him any harm. I understand that the Korean netizens are extremely disappointed in him. If true that sucks ><
It really, really does. I'm not a Puma fan, and I actually think that he handled this situation extremely poorly - he seems to have caused most of the miscommunication between EG and TSL - but he doesn't deserve to be at the center of a witch-hunt. I hope he makes it out okay.
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On July 22 2011 10:27 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:26 poorbeggarman wrote:On July 22 2011 10:20 pdd wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 poorbeggarman wrote:On July 22 2011 10:06 pdd wrote:On July 22 2011 10:03 koreasilver wrote:On July 22 2011 10:00 nam nam wrote:On July 22 2011 09:58 VillageBC wrote:
milki's can't just hide behind the 'i'm just translating' label while at the same time slanting that translation with his bias. I don't care, I think EG is right.. Milki's is overly concerned with Korean culture and TL is ruining e-sports. If the translations is accurate he can say whatever he likes about it. You know like any of us. But to be fair, when Milkis then continues on to say things like "if you don't understand why this is such a big deal, then you just don't understand Korean culture" in a pretty condescending manner. It's obvious that Milkis was very biased in how he carried out the whole thing. His job was to present the Korean side of the story, which I disagree with. It's kind of time for Koreans to understand that SC2 is becoming globalized and start to protect their players as they're competing with foreign teams now. However I lost a ton of respect for AG when he started attacking Milkis for his post. It was unnecessary and Milkis, as a translator should only post a translation of what was put on ThisIsGame and PlayXP. Which is what he did. Other translators would have done the same. I disagree that he was "attacking" Milkis. AG clearly stated that his statement regarding the journalism thing was not accusatory. However, i don't think the main problem is with the whole reporting journalism thing, but the gullibility of some in the TL community, who make spontaneous decisions regarding an issue before hearing both sides of the story. Then wouldn't it be EG's responsibility to quell the shitstorm? Or PlayXP/TIS/TSL's fault for somewhat inaccurate reports? Why put the blame on Milkis? Again: I disagree that he was "attacking" Milkis. AG clearly stated that his statement regarding the journalism thing was not accusatory.-Meaning, he wasn't blaming Milkis for anything.
He just said that, there needs to be some kind of standard to translations of official posts from korea, like hearing both sides of the story, since it may affect gaming organizations, players, etc. Saying "no offense" before saying something offensive doesnt make it not offensive. It's not how it works.
Exactly, if I say "No offence, but you are a fucking cunt" it doesn't mean it isn't offensive..
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On July 22 2011 10:26 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:24 VillageBC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 shavi wrote:
Again, I don't have a problem with EG acquiring a player from any team. I just find it rather disrespectful to not even talk to the team regarding a player you're talking to. Obviously it was pretty dumb not to have him contracted (but it's not like that would have mattered, EG would have still gotten him I'm assuming), but the fact that they didn't even try to contact TSL. Am I the only one who finds it disrespectful and disgusting to approach the team of an unsigned player asking for permission to talk to them? Puma is not TSL property as much as people want to believe it. What the fuck...? It's not about him being property, he's still a living asset, someone that they've invested in and built upon.
I would be fucking pissed right off if a recruiter went to my company and said. 'Hey, we want this guy. So we're going to talk to him' without going through me first. It presents a risk to my career and the perceptions of my company.
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On July 22 2011 10:28 Nausea wrote:
So what i take away from this is:
- Puma will now get payed for doing what he loves. (somehow this is a bad thing)
- A korean mans feelings were hurt. (somehow this matters)
- EG is now rly evil, because they asked Puma if he would be interested in signing with them,
he then goes on to say that he will talk to his coach, all goes well with that and then it doesn't.
That's it in a nutshell, my mind hurts trying to wrap it around where there's 300 pages worth of anger over this. TSL is falling apart, before this they lost 3 players in the last month, things were not going well, and puma, a 19 year old man, decided to make a career choice for himself. I wonder how people would have felt if Puma had been the one to break it, maybe things would be different? I don't know, the reaction to this situation confused the hell out of me.
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EPT
