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On July 22 2011 10:52 Nausea wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors. And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive?
As I said earlier and will say again, THIS IS THEIR DREAM. They have chosen to become Pro-gamers because it is what they want to do. If they are worried about the future then go work in a fucking office, or become a lawyer or a doctor, or anything.
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On July 22 2011 10:26 DizzyDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:18 Twoinches wrote:
No, Why does the foreign scene have to bend over backwards for Korean culture at every turn, when do they do some bending? anywhere else a free agent is a free agent. and he wasnt "poached" or harrassed they had a nice conversation and he wanted to leave tsl (like so many other members have already). If they had such a issue with it they would have offered him a deal as well to counter it.
Because they are signing a KOREAN player who's on a KOREAN team who mostly plays in KOREA and has a lot of KOREAN fans. Yes, I agree they didn't NEED to "bend over backwards", but you can't be surprised at the response they are getting when they don't.
imo that's exactly why things have turned out the way they have. In business deals that involve two different (in this case drastically different) cultures, you have to respect the other side's cultural difference and use the appropriate conduct.
As for the whole not under contract business. Didn't Milkis say something to the effect that in Korea the idea of providing shelter and food for a player was like a contract, and the reason why no formal paperwork is done is because it's kinda pretentious for a team to make a player sign a contract when they are not making money and thus frowned upon?
However, I would like to say I'm excited with what the future holds for Puma and am happy for him (assuming the signing does go through).
And just because he said he doesn't mean to be "accusatory" doesn't mean that he's off the hook. The words and tone he used was clearly accusatory. I wasn't surprised at all that Milkis took it the way he did.
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EG are just acting like bullies now. Why on earth does a full fletched gaming team feel the need to gang up on the translator on their show instead of just addressing the issue head on and making a post like everyone else?
I have lost a lot of respect for EG, and much more for the way they handled the situation after it came out (incontrol trolling last night, etc) then for the Puma deal.
This entire event shows EG's nerve, ignorance, and complete disregard for their fans and the community.
Disgusting.
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It is not Milkis' job to get a statement from EG. It is their own responsibility to mitigate any damage that this swipe may have cost them
How is this any different than when EG made that statement about Team Liquid not being in their team cup or whatever and didn't tell the complete story? And then you had people like inControl and Idra saying it wasn't their responsibility to speak on behalf of TL,.
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On July 22 2011 10:53 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:43 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. That's a dangerous road to go down if TL continues to be the news hub of western SC2, reporting one sided news as fact without checking your sources / both sides and then expecting the other side to do damage control with their PR team is going to result in a hell of a lot of unneeded drama, grudges and over all damage ESPORTS. This post is not a journal, it's a translation. Teamliquid is not a news site, it's a community site. There is drama because EG made the move, not because TL decided to play it up to get attention.
Teamliquid is a news site.
A) Says so right in the banner and B) Trying to claim that TL isn't the news hub of Western SC2 is laughable.
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On July 22 2011 10:52 DizzyDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:39 Emporio wrote:
My question is: Why?
So I happen to be the first to see a tweet of potentially controversial news, I am responsible for investigating everything before being allowed to post a thread on it? I was wondering this aswell. Did AG expect Milikis to not release his translations untill EG had responded, or what?
And if someone else had made the same translations and posted them would they have expected TL close that thread?
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On July 22 2011 10:53 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:52 Nausea wrote:On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors. And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive? You could like... You know... Get another job? Oh wait, that would be logical.
I am sure your extensive experience in progaming will get you a beautiful job instead of you know, the large money you could be making towards the future while progaming.
As I said earlier and will say again, THIS IS THEIR DREAM. They have chosen to become Pro-gamers because it is what they want to do. If they are worried about the future then go work in a fucking office, or become a lawyer or a doctor, or anything.
Are you dense? there are teams willing to pay them to do their dreams and teams that aren't its a pretty easy choice which team they should be with.
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On July 22 2011 10:51 Twoinches wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:47 h3nG wrote:
Sh!t like this cannot continue...
The way I see it:
1. TSL provided PUMA the opportunity to Compete in close to the HARDEST tournament structure known to man and maybe make it to code s
2. PUMA wins a event thanks to flash
>>>>PUMA winning a event makes a name for himself
>>>>PUMA being awesome can bring in TSL money via +SPONSORS for TSL
4. EG saw talent and asked if he would like more tournament exposure like Nasl, salary, and the chance to compete all over the world.
+ for PUMA
+ for EG
- for TSL
. fixed
Fixed again.
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Who knows Eg wasnt trying to contact the coach when HE went to the press early. Deal wasnt done yet and the coach acts like its a month old and he is still sobbing. Maybe if he hadnt jumped the news gun this would have all been a simple process. did anyone think of that?
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On July 22 2011 10:52 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:51 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. and EG offers him something to fall back on while doing what he likes. But he loses all his practice partners and has to play home and food for himself. You do realize EG is opening a team house right? Show nested quote +And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive? Exactly my point, what happens when they are done progamming, is the team going to keep housing and feeding them or are they just SOL. Can't live and eat on respect.
Ok, but his practice partners are going to be vastly inferior to his practice partners in Korea.
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On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:51 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. and EG offers him something to fall back on while doing what he likes. But he loses all his practice partners and has to pay home and food for himself.
u dont know that he loses all his practice partners. the translated article said his teammate even did a farewell party for him, so its not like they all hate him. and there's more than just TSL progamers in korea, im sure lots of people would love to practice their vT with puma.
depending on his salary, maybe it'll just cover his room/food, and maybe it's a lot more than that and will allow him to save some money. no one knows about the numbers, but im sure if it didn't make sense to puma, he wouldnt have been thinking about the offer.
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On July 22 2011 10:53 grooverave wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:26 DizzyDrone wrote:On July 22 2011 10:18 Twoinches wrote:
No, Why does the foreign scene have to bend over backwards for Korean culture at every turn, when do they do some bending? anywhere else a free agent is a free agent. and he wasnt "poached" or harrassed they had a nice conversation and he wanted to leave tsl (like so many other members have already). If they had such a issue with it they would have offered him a deal as well to counter it.
Because they are signing a KOREAN player who's on a KOREAN team who mostly plays in KOREA and has a lot of KOREAN fans. Yes, I agree they didn't NEED to "bend over backwards", but you can't be surprised at the response they are getting when they don't. imo that's exactly why things have turned out the way they have. In business deals that involve two different (in this case drastically different) cultures, you have to respect the other side's cultural difference and use the appropriate conduct. As for the whole not under contract business. Didn't Milkis say something to the effect that in Korea the idea of providing shelter and food for a player was like a contract, and the reason why no formal paperwork is done is because it's kinda pretentious for a team to make a player sign a contract when they are not making money and thus frowned upon? However, I would like to say I'm excited with what the future holds for Puma and am happy for him (assuming the signing does go through). And just because he said he doesn't mean to be "accusatory" doesn't mean that he's off the hook. The words and tone he used was clearly accusatory. I wasn't surprised at all that Milkis took it the way he did.
I couldn't agree with you more. A bunch of ppl here just throw out the no-contract crap without the context. Even giving example in US. Its Korea we are talking about here. You can bring rules in US and apply in Korea. Thats it.
About the TL thing, I think its just him blaming other parties. If you want to protect your image, feel free come in here and post. Demanding Milkis to wait for EG before putting the translation up is just plain wrong and frankly its stupid consider the nature of TL.
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On July 22 2011 10:53 Twoinches wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:51 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:45 nufcrulz wrote:
Also, why isnt EG's position on this in the OP as well. Why am i getting one sided views from the Korean side? Because this is a TRANSLATED ARTICLEBy the Korean website which dislikes this. And because EG didn't released an official statement, as far as i know. (except the whole WOC thing) Why would they? the deal was not complete. why announce the deal when it isnt a deal yet?
Well maybe because they are running on marketing money, and if they don't release a statement half of the world is going to hate them and what they are marketing?
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On July 22 2011 10:53 creamer wrote:
Obviously EG has offered Puma more in some way. Think of it as a professional sport, a player will switch teams 99% of the time if they offer him more money/benefits. Not only is this a game, but it's a business and I feel extremely bad for the TSL team who raised him but they have to follow up and give him what he deserves with his good performance and obviously Puma felt he will be rewarded more greatly with EG.
Only question I have is where will Puma be staying now? Will he not be living in a practice environment? Will there be EG members setting up shop in Korea?
AG said they'd fly him to the EG house a few weeks in advance before foreign events to get acquanited/play with his team mates, assuming he signs the contract to join EG(which he hasn't yet.) I think it can be assumed that otherwise he'd reside in Korea but don't quote me on that.
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On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players.
korean teams do not think they shouldnt have to pay their players....where did you get this???
coach lee said in his interview with playxp.com that their sponsors were leaving because of lack of exposure due to small viewership of SC2 in korea ATM.
they didnt pay him salary because of financial hardship. not because they feel like they shouldnt.
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On July 22 2011 10:54 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:52 Nausea wrote:On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors. And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive? You could like... You know... Get another job? Oh wait, that would be logical. I am sure your extensive experience in progaming will get you a beautiful job instead of you know, the large money you could be making towards the future while progaming. Show nested quote +As I said earlier and will say again, THIS IS THEIR DREAM. They have chosen to become Pro-gamers because it is what they want to do. If they are worried about the future then go work in a fucking office, or become a lawyer or a doctor, or anything. Are you dense? there are teams willing to pay them to do their dreams and teams that aren't its a pretty easy choice which team they should be with.
Dude, look at any progamer that has retired. They have either gotten jobs as coaches or they have simply gotten a "normal" job. I dont get your problem at all.
But if he signs with a team that has worse practice, he has to pay housing himself and has to pay food himself, is that really worth it?
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On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement.
TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid.
Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately.
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On July 22 2011 10:52 esotericc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:51 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:36 KevinBacon wrote:
I am pretty sure players like Puma don't have a contract because korean teams didn't expect this kind of ninja steal from foreigner teams could happen since it doesn't amonst the korean ones if they knew i think they would have made them sign contracts even without a salary which i believe will happen in the future.
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. and EG offers him something to fall back on while doing what he likes. But he loses all his practice partners and has to play home and food for himself. You do realize EG is opening a team house right? Show nested quote +And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive? Exactly my point, what happens when they are done progamming, is the team going to keep housing and feeding them or are they just SOL. Can't live and eat on respect.
pro football player gets a few years in the big leagues. get injured a lot or things just dont pan out and he retires without a nest egg.
so you blame the team because he didnt get a 'real job' ?
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Milki's translates the article, then provides the slant that EG is disrespectful to Korean culture, then goes on to WoC to defend the Coach Lee/Korean/whatever perspective. Of course he's going to get attacked.
He was also completely the wrong person for it, all he should have done is say... PlayXP/Korea says X, Y, Z and leave it at that.
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I honestly can't understand how people are using a western mindset to question the feelings of a Korean Organization.
Eastern culture is much different, and it's easy to say - Well, no contract, no problem here in the West, but that's not always the case in other cultures. All the teams know each other to an extent and trust their players, as well as other team managers to at least contact them in some way before deals happen. These teams are not by any means against players leaving their teams for better opportunities. They want to provide players with opportunities but often times cannot. When another organization comes along, they generally wish these players well and hope for them to be successful - but there is always contact between the players and management. If the player wants to leave, and he is receiving better opportunities elsewhere - the manager will allow the player to leave and most likely wish him well. BUT there needs to be respect on EG's end to know the culture and contact the coaches.
I know some people may think it's naive to assume that management will be receptive to these offers - I suggest you take a look at FXO acquiring fOu, the SK / OGS deal, and Rain leaving TSL. Also, players change teams all the time in Korea.
No, I'm not saying that the teams own them. That argument makes no sense if you have any sense of cultural knowledge. Collectivist cultures are always representing groups - You represent your family name, your team, your business, etc. - that is extremely important almost always. The Western culture is more individualistic and we want to separate ourselves from the groups as much as possible without being completely ostracized. EG should have contacted TSL. Not much else you can say about this if you have knowledge of cultural differences.
I don't think EG was wrong or TSL was wrong. I do, believe that when you are making this kind of deal, communication is essential. To those of you arguing that the player wanted to talk to the coach himself, I think that argument is irrelevant. That conversation is happening regardless of whether EG talks to TSL. The conversation between a player who cares about the team and the coach who cares about the player will happen inevitably. It is still EG's responsibility to contact TSL or at least do research about the way things work in Korea.
Anyways, I think overall the deal is a great thing - and I wish both organizations the best in the future.
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EPT
