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On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately.
Uhuh?
Something is proven wrong? What is proven wrong here?
Whether its right or wrong, did EG not talk to the player straight up? Did the Coach not have a negative opinion on this? Did EG release anything that was purposely left out of the OP?
Yes, if something is wrong/additional information presents, correntions need to be made, and they will.
Problem is that there is no additional information from EG.
Then they accused Milklis of not asking them for information when he did, while at the same time saying its not an accusation.
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This thread is featured on the frontpage of TeamLiquid, thus we as a community naturally assumed that it's factual. Many whom that did not watch WoC today will continue to assume all on it is factual, at least not proven to be incorrect.
There are elements in this thread topic that is proven in correct, such as Puma has signed a contract with EG or that Puma received an unspecific sum from EG. These needed to be corrected.
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On July 22 2011 11:00 Roggay wrote:
*snip*
Furthermore, EG could have easily released an official statement and it would have been added without problem, they just didnt.
I'm not sure EG could, or should have. Puma is not under contract with EG, even if the intent is there. It sounds like it's still being negotiated, and general rule in business is you make announcements after people are signed on the dotted line, not before hand.
edit: inserted a missed word.
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On July 22 2011 10:58 NexUmbra wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:54 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:52 Nausea wrote:On July 22 2011 10:51 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 10:50 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:49 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 esotericc wrote:On July 22 2011 10:44 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:37 esotericc wrote:
[quote]
I find it offensive that Korean teams think they shouldn't have to pay their players. Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world. And if the team dissolves or they don't win tournaments now what? No salary they have nothing to fall back on. Pay your employees or expect someone else too. Jesus this isn't some kind of typical job, this is their dream, to be a progamer. And if they are worried about "having nothing to fall back on" then don't become a progamer and go get a normal job. Fun fact, progamers still need to eat. Which they do. For free. Because their teams pay their food. Which they do since they have freaking sponsors. And now to the point... when the career is over ... do the team still give them house/food? Or should they just hope that they have won cash to survive? You could like... You know... Get another job? Oh wait, that would be logical. I am sure your extensive experience in progaming will get you a beautiful job instead of you know, the large money you could be making towards the future while progaming. As I said earlier and will say again, THIS IS THEIR DREAM. They have chosen to become Pro-gamers because it is what they want to do. If they are worried about the future then go work in a fucking office, or become a lawyer or a doctor, or anything. Are you dense? there are teams willing to pay them to do their dreams and teams that aren't its a pretty easy choice which team they should be with. But this argument doesn't concern that, this started off with (as far as I can recall, with it being 3am and all  ) saying what has TSL done for PuMa which I then said "Instead they house them, feed them and give them the best practice conditions in the world." someone then went on about food and you are talking about something else.
it started off with TSL doesnt pay puma, and then the argument was well they feed/house them and that's enough. meanwhile after their progaming careers are done, they really dont have any qualifications to do anything else, remember these guys are putting school aside to be a progamer in most cases. so sc2 is all they pretty much know. why shouldnt they be able to get paid so they can save for retirement like everyone else? just because they get food/housing doenst mean that's all they should get and nothing else.
consider the number of progamers there are in korea, how many coach spots do u really think exists? each team needs 1, i dunno any team that have 2 or more. what happens to the progamers who can't get that coaching job? can they go back to school? no cause they didnt save anything cause all they got was food/housing.
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On July 22 2011 10:38 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:35 meep wrote:On July 22 2011 10:34 travis wrote:On July 22 2011 10:10 Barkziee wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!! As long as travis gets to spam another post out its all good! On topic, it was an invalid debate from the start because there was no fair respresentation and no impartial observer leading the debate. lulz, my "spam" had about 20 people reply to it im the only one that replies to yours t.t so sorrrrrrry because all that matters is having people reply to you it is nice to have people care about what you're saying
Stop spamming please. Try and contribute to the actual conversation.
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On July 22 2011 11:01 NexUmbra wrote:
But you see, e-sports isn't sports..... If you wanna be a progamer, forget about having any kind of living after retiring.
Problem?
So it works pretty much like drugs then? Should be banned globaly then...
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On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately.
The point was from a literal and legal stand point. TL themselves didn't publish anything and are absolutely not, themselves, accountable for posts in the general forum - pretty much every forum ever makes this clear. Sure, if they had published their own TL featured article - it would be a disaster.
The larger point was that it was slimey for AG to bring up journalistic integrity to milk for pasting/linking an already-published article over to the english-speaking community. If he's upset about not being contacted for a comment, he needs to speak to someone who's responsible for doing so over at PXP. It comes off as a ploy to devalue milk's stance and integrity.
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someone did a rough translation earlier in the thread but it got buried in the shitstorm of people crying bloody murder on EG.
like i've said multiple times in this thread (not that anyone probably read it with the pitch forks raised at EG) this was handled poorly by both organizations.
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On July 22 2011 11:02 Primadog wrote:
This thread is featured on the frontpage of TeamLiquid, thus we as a community naturally assumed that it's factual. Many whom that did not watch WoC today will continue to assume all on it is factual, at least not proven to be incorrect.
There are elements in this thread topic that is proven in correct, such as Puma has signed a contract with EG or that Puma received an unspecific sum from EG. These needed to be corrected.
When in the OP saying that Puma has signed the contract and received the money. You sir have reading comprehensive problem. Check your facts before saying other facts are wrong. In fact, i think you deserve to be banned for stating those falsified information.
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I can appreciate if people think that AG had a crappy personality, but somebody who is hating on EG's actions please tell me:
If AG is not lying and:
- Their recruitment was just handing out flyers, with no intention of contract signing before TSL had been informed and have their chance to make an offer
- Puma requested that he be the one to tell TSL coach
What is shady about EG's actions at any point?
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Canada5565 Posts
On July 22 2011 10:39 Emporio wrote:
So I happen to be the first to see a tweet of potentially controversial news, I am responsible for investigating everything before being allowed to post a thread on it?
No, you do not have to investigate everything.
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On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks.
u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured
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On July 22 2011 11:01 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:59 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 10:54 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 10:43 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. That's a dangerous road to go down if TL continues to be the news hub of western SC2, reporting one sided news as fact without checking your sources / both sides and then expecting the other side to do damage control with their PR team is going to result in a hell of a lot of unneeded drama, grudges and over all damage ESPORTS. This post is not a journal, it's a translation. Teamliquid is not a news site, it's a community site. There is drama because EG made the move, not because TL decided to play it up to get attention. Teamliquid is a news site. A) Says so right in the banner and B) Trying to claim that TL isn't the news hub of Western SC2 is laughable. Teamliquid developed into having a news function =/= teamliquid is a news site. the banner says new, community and team. This is a post on a community forum, not an official news release from teamliquid. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you there. It was featured on the frontpage Community News and Headlines sections, they featured it as news.
"community news"
If you read them often, you'd realize they are posts from the community member.
And if you think everyone posting on these forums have journalistic obligation, then i duno what to say.
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On July 22 2011 11:02 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:00 Roggay wrote:
*snip*
Furthermore, EG could have easily released an official statement and it would have been added without problem, they just didnt. I'm not sure EG could, or should have. Puma is not under contract with EG, even if the intent is there. It sounds like it's still being negotiated, and general rule in business is you make announcements after people are signed on the dotted line, not before hand. edit: inserted a missed word.
They could have just said that the whole matter was still in negotiation and that nothing was decided, and it would have been fine.
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On July 22 2011 11:01 TheButtonmen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:59 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 10:54 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 10:43 TheButtonmen wrote:On July 22 2011 10:38 PHC wrote:On July 22 2011 10:33 Dingobloo wrote:On July 22 2011 10:27 Daedra wrote:
Milkis also didn't do anything wrong, it is his job to translate, not write a formal article. But I can see where EG is coming from, a huge thread on this issue and a lot of it hate on EG when the facts weren't known. It's pretty sticky, and certainly a discussion for another thread, but I feel it might be a TL moderation thing, the topic should be closed until they get a statement from EG then re-opened, leaving it open I fear just leads to 100's of pages of baseless speculation before anyone from EG even has a chance to wake up in the morning. Why should this thread be closed until EG posts a statement? This is a public community forum. It's their PR job to remedy the situation. That's a dangerous road to go down if TL continues to be the news hub of western SC2, reporting one sided news as fact without checking your sources / both sides and then expecting the other side to do damage control with their PR team is going to result in a hell of a lot of unneeded drama, grudges and over all damage ESPORTS. This post is not a journal, it's a translation. Teamliquid is not a news site, it's a community site. There is drama because EG made the move, not because TL decided to play it up to get attention. Teamliquid is a news site. A) Says so right in the banner and B) Trying to claim that TL isn't the news hub of Western SC2 is laughable. Teamliquid developed into having a news function =/= teamliquid is a news site. the banner says new, community and team. This is a post on a community forum, not an official news release from teamliquid. If you can't see the difference, I can't help you there. It was featured on the frontpage Community News and Headlines sections, they featured it as news.
I have no problem with what is written on TL or this thread, but i agree that TL has prematurely featured the article as news
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On July 22 2011 11:05 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:39 Emporio wrote:
So I happen to be the first to see a tweet of potentially controversial news, I am responsible for investigating everything before being allowed to post a thread on it? No, you do not have to investigate everything.
But don't forget to see whether it was posted already.
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On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured
>Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year.
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On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
On 'but morally... Milk should have contacted EG': Who published the article? Milk or someone from PlayXP? Suggesting someone needs to contact both parties for a statement before posting a link (and a translation) of the primary source is completely bogus. AG asserting his position on journalistic integrity within TL at this point was timed to devalue Milk's stance - it was virtually irrelevant and borderline a smear campaign. Just because you preface a statement suggesting what you're about to say isn't meant to be such, does not, sir, make it so. K, moving on - I feel like that's pretty straightforward.
Milk: You should have contacted the coach, it's how it's done in Korea. The culture is different - it's always this way. (i.e. MANNER UP)
AG: The culture boundary between us and Korea exists, but needlessly - this is just how business is done in the international scene and further how we've done business for years. The Korean business model is incorrect and they need to be aware of ours.
This is the thin straw man Milk was referring to. To make it clear:
Your answer isn't a counter point to his. What you've done here is suggest that since your perspective/business model/culture is different, you're not at fault for offending the Korean community. Not only is this swiss-cheese weak but it is straw man fallacious.
M: The Korean culture is such that pride/honor/family is often involved even in business decisions. You offended them because you did not respect their cultural tradition of contacting coaches/management.
A: Their business model is weak, ours is better, they shouldn't be offended - they should understand where we're coming from.
M states A has ignored/offended Korean culture and this is bad for A.
A states Koreans don't have the correct business model for the growth of e-sports on an international scale.
The discussion in the the interview and the OP was not about the growth of e-sports or how to most efficiently run a progaming team. You've explained why you did what you did and then passed it off as a rebuttal to the claim that such cultural missteps are damaging to your company and its image. You offended the Korean community and then in an interview explained why their culture is wrong and hurting the growth of e-sports. Holy shit.
Also, I've loved djWheat for a while now - but this was awful. Don't have two people on for some kind of debate and then interject with your own views and speak over any of the participants.
Haha holy shit indeed. I dunno. Everyone at EG seems to be infinitely bad at PR and when they try to do "damage control" they end up doing more damage.
This is a pretty relatively minor thing. Half the posts in this thread are missing the issue entirely. This isn't about Puma leaving or contracts or poaching or business ethics or players should get paid more or Kespa & the end of esports or any of the other silly topics springing out of this. All EG did was not follow etiquette they may or not have been aware of. A simple "my bad, I didn't know?" Would've saved EG some face. Instead they attack a messenger and play the victim. Haha
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Blaming Milkis for not double checking with EG is a little bit weird in my opinion because Milkis wasn't the one who wrote the news. He did not act as a journalist in this instance. He acted as a translator
He translated a newspiece that is already available in PlayXP. If the article is wrong or lacking in accuracy, then the one that they should go after is the PlayXP writer.
It is like the fragster article in which fragster said Cloud left MYM which was proven wrong afterwards. If someone translated that and put it on TL, and the news turned out to be wrong, the blame lies with fragster ( the source) and not the translator. Nor is it the fault of someone who posted the thread ( it just so happened though that in this case, the one who posted the thread was someone from fragster)
Milkis is not PlayXP employee. Blaming him for posting that article is absurd.
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