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On July 22 2011 11:14 felizuno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:51 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 10:47 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 10:45 nufcrulz wrote:
Also, why isnt EG's position on this in the OP as well. Why am i getting one sided views from the Korean side? Because this is a TRANSLATED ARTICLEBy the Korean website which dislikes this. And because EG didn't released an official statement, as far as i know. (except the whole WOC thing) there is nothing to officially state, Puma hasn't signed anything (lol with TSL or EG)
You could state that nothing was decided yet. Easy.
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On July 22 2011 11:13 thanhbao86 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:11 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? E-sports isnt as big as NBA man, you cant compare them ffs... im replying to the guy who just did. he said "only a very very small percentage ever makes a decent living out of it" and "much less enough money to retire and live a good life" How many basketball players make it to NBA? Have you considered that?
why, he said professional sports, i suppose u can argue that the minor leagues are pro too, but i assume top tier pros, which is what korean pros would be equal to.
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On July 22 2011 11:01 bokchoi wrote:
This is just an example of how weak the Korean pro-teams are and how weak the Korean SC2 market truly is in comparison to the global / western market. Most Korean pro-teams don't have written contracts because at this time they cannot guarantee or provide salaries, housing, food, etc. Yes, most teams will try their best to provide the bare necessities, housing and food, and that what PuMa was getting. Its kind of disappointing that PuMa took the easy way out (for himself) rather than banding together with his teammates and trying to make something with TSL.
In BW, prior to most teams getting big corporate sponsors, etc. most teams struggled and had their players poached by bigger teams. In one such team, GO (now CJ Entus), their star player at the time XellOs, the one who stuck it out with his team, gave up his own prize winnings to help finance the team. That is being true to your verbal (or non-verbal) contract you have made to your team and teammates to band together and make something.
Maybe in some ways SC2 in Korea needs KeSPA so that they can get the corporate backing to help support their teams. Some people may see Korean teams being unable to provide salary as exploiting their players, but they don't provide salaries, because they simply don't have the means. Also, when you think about it being provided space in a team house (practice, housing, food) can be much better than receiving salary unless the salary is significant enough to cover housing and living expenses.
An insightful response for a change. Claps.
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On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. Again, I do not blame Milkis at all, but I do believe that since the facts are laid out, things like "EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments" should be corrected to reflect it. It's not even that hard. It's a minute of editing from Milkis or from a TL admin.
To edit what exactly? The accurate translation of a statement made by the TSL coach on a major korean SCII site?
The information posted at the time was accurate, and the source of it was clear. The fact that no other information was available at the time doesn't make posting it wrong.
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On July 22 2011 11:14 Dr.Sin wrote:
For all the intellectual masturbation of the contract / no contract based nature of business in Korea/Asia, does anyone have any real statistics on the subject to back up their claims?
There are no contracts to begin with so how would you count then.
Coach Lee also stated about the fact that there are no contracts in many SC2 players in Korea and relationship are built on trust. I believe him unless you implied he is lying which I don't see any reasons why he would do so.
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On July 22 2011 11:15 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:10 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? Ok, i have to correct you here. A lot of pro are not making much in their respective sports (a basketball player in europe for example won't make much money in general). And if you get injured, it pretty much means you have to search for another job. lets say u get injured year 1 and u were signed for 1 year only. if u get injured, im assuming u still get paid, cause u got injured while working. and lets say its career ending, so at least very least u still have 200k (whatever is left after tax) to still get an education or whatever u choose to do. and is it just me, but if i had 200k, and i had no job, i think that'd still be enough for me live off of for like 3-4 years easy.
You are living in a bubble, only a selected few in the world make 200k/year.
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On July 22 2011 11:13 thanhbao86 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:11 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? E-sports isnt as big as NBA man, you cant compare them ffs... im replying to the guy who just did. he said "only a very very small percentage ever makes a decent living out of it" and "much less enough money to retire and live a good life" How many basketball players make it to NBA? Have you considered that?
Were talking about people who "have already made it" to the NBA (Progaming) Of course they should be paid.
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On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP?
Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance
Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view:
"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses.
Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player"
TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this"
Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th.
EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. **
http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550
http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=
* EDIT 1: In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially.
** Edit 2: In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far.
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Why are people angry at Milkis for this? He just translated some stupid article. This whole incident is ONLY a big deal because the 300 pages of posts on TL made it a big deal. Why don't people understand this? Milkis never translated this article and posted it on TL with the intent of generating controversy.
He has translated plenty of SC1 articles that get like 2 comments total ALL THE TIME. Don't kill the messenger.
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On July 22 2011 11:03 Apollo_Shards wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 10:38 travis wrote:On July 22 2011 10:35 meep wrote:On July 22 2011 10:34 travis wrote:On July 22 2011 10:10 Barkziee wrote:On July 22 2011 10:08 travis wrote:
lol ppl here are so naturally competitive here everything needs to have a clear winner and loser. Did AG win? Did Milkis win? WHO WON DAMNIT!! As long as travis gets to spam another post out its all good! On topic, it was an invalid debate from the start because there was no fair respresentation and no impartial observer leading the debate. lulz, my "spam" had about 20 people reply to it im the only one that replies to yours t.t so sorrrrrrry because all that matters is having people reply to you it is nice to have people care about what you're saying Stop spamming please. Try and contribute to the actual conversation.
the sad thing is you probably havent been here long enough to know what it means that Travis' name looks "different"
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On July 22 2011 11:16 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:13 thanhbao86 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:11 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? E-sports isnt as big as NBA man, you cant compare them ffs... im replying to the guy who just did. he said "only a very very small percentage ever makes a decent living out of it" and "much less enough money to retire and live a good life" How many basketball players make it to NBA? Have you considered that? why, he said professional sports, i suppose u can argue that the minor leagues are pro too, but i assume top tier pros, which is what korean pros would be equal to.
Professional means that you have a salary. And in most leagues you don't get a lot.
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On July 22 2011 11:18 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:15 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? Ok, i have to correct you here. A lot of pro are not making much in their respective sports (a basketball player in europe for example won't make much money in general). And if you get injured, it pretty much means you have to search for another job. lets say u get injured year 1 and u were signed for 1 year only. if u get injured, im assuming u still get paid, cause u got injured while working. and lets say its career ending, so at least very least u still have 200k (whatever is left after tax) to still get an education or whatever u choose to do. and is it just me, but if i had 200k, and i had no job, i think that'd still be enough for me live off of for like 3-4 years easy. You are living in a bubble, only a selected few in the world make 200k/year.
but im saying u get paid and that's how u have back up plans in case things dont work out. that 200k? u can invest, u can start a business, u can go to school, u can do a lot of things.
where as when u dont get paid as a progamer, u are royally screwed when ur career is over. and im only addressing people who are said "sure they dont pay, but they offer food/housing" and acting like that's enough somehow.
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On July 22 2011 11:20 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:18 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 11:15 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? Ok, i have to correct you here. A lot of pro are not making much in their respective sports (a basketball player in europe for example won't make much money in general). And if you get injured, it pretty much means you have to search for another job. lets say u get injured year 1 and u were signed for 1 year only. if u get injured, im assuming u still get paid, cause u got injured while working. and lets say its career ending, so at least very least u still have 200k (whatever is left after tax) to still get an education or whatever u choose to do. and is it just me, but if i had 200k, and i had no job, i think that'd still be enough for me live off of for like 3-4 years easy. You are living in a bubble, only a selected few in the world make 200k/year. but im saying u get paid and that's how u have back up plans in case things dont work out. that 200k? u can invest, u can start a business, u can go to school, u can do a lot of things. where as when u dont get paid as a progamer, u are royally screwed when ur career is over. and im only addressing people who are said "sure they dont pay, but they offer food/housing" and acting like that's enough somehow.
You can't ask for big salaries for every players if there is no money to pay them with. Stop being blind.
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On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. Again, I do not blame Milkis at all, but I do believe that since the facts are laid out, things like "EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments" should be corrected to reflect it. It's not even that hard. It's a minute of editing from Milkis or from a TL admin.
EG sent the offer that agrees to pay Puma a salary and stipends for foreign tournament. so Milkis stated that "EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments". That statement says exactly the situation how is it false then?
If you failed to understand that statement, then its your stupidity thats the problem not TL staffs.
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On July 22 2011 11:19 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:16 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:13 thanhbao86 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:11 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Slakter wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? E-sports isnt as big as NBA man, you cant compare them ffs... im replying to the guy who just did. he said "only a very very small percentage ever makes a decent living out of it" and "much less enough money to retire and live a good life" How many basketball players make it to NBA? Have you considered that? why, he said professional sports, i suppose u can argue that the minor leagues are pro too, but i assume top tier pros, which is what korean pros would be equal to. Professional means that you have a salary. And in most leagues you don't get a lot.
korean pros are top tier and they're call PROgamers (but most dont have a salary), am i right in this assumption? so im only relating them to top tier in other sports, and not your local soccer team with random person A to Z.
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On July 22 2011 11:16 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. Again, I do not blame Milkis at all, but I do believe that since the facts are laid out, things like "EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments" should be corrected to reflect it. It's not even that hard. It's a minute of editing from Milkis or from a TL admin. To edit what exactly? The accurate translation of a statement made by the TSL coach on a major korean SCII site? The information posted at the time was accurate, and the source of it was clear. The fact that no other information was available at the time doesn't make posting it wrong.
Most journalists (or sites that i've seen for that matter) will go back and add updates or edits when bits of information are found to be incorrect.
I think Team Liquid should strive to be more journalistic, there's a real opportunity for them to become a leader in the e-sports (specifically SC2) journalistic world.
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On July 22 2011 11:22 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:20 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:18 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 11:15 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? Ok, i have to correct you here. A lot of pro are not making much in their respective sports (a basketball player in europe for example won't make much money in general). And if you get injured, it pretty much means you have to search for another job. lets say u get injured year 1 and u were signed for 1 year only. if u get injured, im assuming u still get paid, cause u got injured while working. and lets say its career ending, so at least very least u still have 200k (whatever is left after tax) to still get an education or whatever u choose to do. and is it just me, but if i had 200k, and i had no job, i think that'd still be enough for me live off of for like 3-4 years easy. You are living in a bubble, only a selected few in the world make 200k/year. but im saying u get paid and that's how u have back up plans in case things dont work out. that 200k? u can invest, u can start a business, u can go to school, u can do a lot of things. im not asking for big salaries, im asking for ANY salary. where as when u dont get paid as a progamer, u are royally screwed when ur career is over. and im only addressing people who are said "sure they dont pay, but they offer food/housing" and acting like that's enough somehow. You can't ask for big salaries for every players if there is no money to pay them with. Stop being blind.
im not asking for big salaries, im asking for ANY salary.
i think u r the one being blind, ive said several times that this is a response to the people that said "its ok not to pay them anything because they are already providing them with food/housing"
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On July 22 2011 11:18 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP? Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: Show nested quote +"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses. Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th. EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. ** http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=* EDIT 1:In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially. ** Edit 2:In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far.
Good job, Milk really should edit in the EG stance from WoC 12 hours before WoC started. False journalism right there.
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On July 22 2011 11:11 zev318 wrote:
im replying to the guy who just did. he said "only a very very small percentage ever makes a decent living out of it" and "much less enough money to retire and live a good life"
I didn't say anything about the NBA. I was talking about professional sports in general. And no, the vast majority of player that play professional sports don't actually make enough out of it to retire and live a good life. Only a select few players that devote their lives to a sport, giving up everything they have, will make it into a major team (most never make it past minor leagues) and out of those that do, fewer still have careers that are long enough to accumulate the type of savings to support you for your life.
Just because a career path requires you to throw away everything to follow doesn't mean that you should automatically be set for life for following it. Playing professional sports, even well established ones, is a risk from the moment you set your heart on that goal. Taking up an unestablished sport like eSports is even more of a risk and players know it, but are willing to take that leap on the off chance that they do actually find success.
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On July 22 2011 11:20 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:18 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 11:15 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? Ok, i have to correct you here. A lot of pro are not making much in their respective sports (a basketball player in europe for example won't make much money in general). And if you get injured, it pretty much means you have to search for another job. lets say u get injured year 1 and u were signed for 1 year only. if u get injured, im assuming u still get paid, cause u got injured while working. and lets say its career ending, so at least very least u still have 200k (whatever is left after tax) to still get an education or whatever u choose to do. and is it just me, but if i had 200k, and i had no job, i think that'd still be enough for me live off of for like 3-4 years easy. You are living in a bubble, only a selected few in the world make 200k/year. but im saying u get paid and that's how u have back up plans in case things dont work out. that 200k? u can invest, u can start a business, u can go to school, u can do a lot of things. where as when u dont get paid as a progamer, u are royally screwed when ur career is over. and im only addressing people who are said "sure they dont pay, but they offer food/housing" and acting like that's enough somehow.
But progamers DO get payed salaries most of the time, just not in SC2 since SC2 is teeny tiny and you have to put trust in the scene for it to grow.
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