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On July 22 2011 11:15 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:10 Roggay wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:06 NexUmbra wrote:On July 22 2011 11:05 zev318 wrote:On July 22 2011 11:02 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 10:59 Nausea wrote:
That would assume that the person got an education, work experience and that there are jobs available. The purpose of moving esports forward is to make it so that players can live off it, and once they retire live a good life and have money saved up. Like any other professional sport.
Is this a bad joke or do you have absolutely no idea how other professional sports work? It's only a very very small percentage that ever make a decent living out of it, much less enough money to retire and live a good life with the money they saved up. It's a high risk "career" and people signing up for it generally know what they're getting into and accept those risks. u mean the NBA players who make like 10 million dollars a year can't retire off that and live a good life? even entry level professional sports people make more than enough. injuries are covered, its not like they dont get paid if they're injured >Implying every player in the NBA makes 10 million dollars a year. http://www.insidehoops.com/minimum-nba-salary.shtmlur saying u can't live off of 473k a year? Ok, i have to correct you here. A lot of pro are not making much in their respective sports (a basketball player in europe for example won't make much money in general). And if you get injured, it pretty much means you have to search for another job. lets say u get injured year 1 and u were signed for 1 year only. if u get injured, im assuming u still get paid, cause u got injured while working. and lets say its career ending, so at least very least u still have 200k (whatever is left after tax) to still get an education or whatever u choose to do. and is it just me, but if i had 200k, and i had no job, i think that'd still be enough for me live off of for like 3-4 years easy.
people tend to go a bit out of control when they have this much money so it's not as easy as you think it is
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On July 22 2011 11:18 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP? Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: Show nested quote +"It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses. Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th. EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. ** http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=* EDIT 1: In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially. ** Edit 2: In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far.
The OP did not say EG did pay, the OP meant EG agreed to pay (the fact that EG sent the offer and wait for Puma to sign implies that EG agreed to pay).
The edit 1 information is from Coach Lee, so he is accountable for that info, you can go and ask him not TL.
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The 'front page' of GD isn't as illustrious as you're making it sound. It's not as if this was a featured news article. It's really more to the point of the OP that instead of commenting on missteps in business dealings with the Korean scene, AG opts to insist their business model is wrong and pass some blame off to both the coach and Milk for making the event public.
Your edits are well and good, but don't really add to the true topic. It also says Puma has left the house and told his coach of his intention to move to EG. So, regardless of whether he's received money or not and the details of the interaction between EG and Puma, unbenounced to his coach, are fairly moot.
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On July 22 2011 11:23 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:18 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP? Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses. Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th. EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. ** http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=* EDIT 1:In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially. ** Edit 2:In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far. Good job, Milk really should edit in the EG stance from WoC 12 hours before WoC started. False journalism right there.
When new info comes in, journalists update their articles - That's how it works online.
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On July 22 2011 11:22 baumer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:16 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. Again, I do not blame Milkis at all, but I do believe that since the facts are laid out, things like "EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments" should be corrected to reflect it. It's not even that hard. It's a minute of editing from Milkis or from a TL admin. To edit what exactly? The accurate translation of a statement made by the TSL coach on a major korean SCII site? The information posted at the time was accurate, and the source of it was clear. The fact that no other information was available at the time doesn't make posting it wrong. Most journalists (or sites that i've seen for that matter) will go back and add updates or edits when bits of information are found to be incorrect. I think Team Liquid should strive to be more journalistic, there's a real opportunity for them to become a leader in the e-sports (specifically SC2) journalistic world.
They did go back to edit and update
But there's no information from EG so there's nothing to be added into the OP.
And the one who wrote the OP just got insulted on the WoC show, maybe he should rush back to edit his post?
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On July 22 2011 11:23 LegendaryZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:11 zev318 wrote:
im replying to the guy who just did. he said "only a very very small percentage ever makes a decent living out of it" and "much less enough money to retire and live a good life" I didn't say anything about the NBA. I was talking about professional sports in general. And no, the vast majority of player that play professional sports don't actually make enough out of it to retire and live a good life. Only a select few players that devote their lives to a sport, giving up everything they have, will make it into a major team (most never make it past minor leagues) and out of those that do, fewer still have careers that are long enough to accumulate the type of savings to support you for your life. Just because a career path requires you to throw away everything to follow doesn't mean that you should automatically be set for life for following it. Playing professional sports, even well established ones, is a risk from the moment you set your heart on that goal. Taking up an unestablished sport like eSports is even more of a risk and players know it, but are willing to take that leap on the off chance that they do actually find success.
then i guess i misinterpreted ur definition of "professional sports"
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On July 22 2011 11:25 Thrax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:23 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:18 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP? Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses. Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th. EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. ** http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=* EDIT 1:In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially. ** Edit 2:In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far. Good job, Milk really should edit in the EG stance from WoC 12 hours before WoC started. False journalism right there. When new info comes in, journalists update their articles - That's how it works online.
If milk is getting paid for the job, sure, he should edit post asap after new facts present itself.
Is he? No.
Are you saying he should get back to his desk to edit this FORUM post as soon as the WoC show finishes?
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On July 22 2011 11:25 Thrax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:23 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:18 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP? Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses. Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th. EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. ** http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=* EDIT 1:In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially. ** Edit 2:In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far. Good job, Milk really should edit in the EG stance from WoC 12 hours before WoC started. False journalism right there. When new info comes in, journalists update their articles - That's how it works online.
Milkis isn't a journalist ><
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On July 22 2011 11:28 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:25 Thrax wrote:On July 22 2011 11:23 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:18 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP? Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses. Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th. EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. ** http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=* EDIT 1:In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially. ** Edit 2:In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far. Good job, Milk really should edit in the EG stance from WoC 12 hours before WoC started. False journalism right there. When new info comes in, journalists update their articles - That's how it works online. Milkis isn't a journalist ><
There is still no WRITTEN statement by EG.
What is there to post?
A link to the podcast?
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If I was Milkis, I would put Alex's points in the OP, but of course, he's probably pissed right now.
I believe Alex was completely wrong about Milkis being a journalist, and having to wait and shit.
but now after all the shit has gone down, Milkis has become the defacto leader for the thread, and it should be updated to be fair to both sides, either he or a mod can do so
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On July 22 2011 11:28 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:25 Thrax wrote:On July 22 2011 11:23 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:18 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP? Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses. Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th. EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. ** http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=* EDIT 1:In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially. ** Edit 2:In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far. Good job, Milk really should edit in the EG stance from WoC 12 hours before WoC started. False journalism right there. When new info comes in, journalists update their articles - That's how it works online. Milkis isn't a journalist ><
Also that info is from the interview with Coach Lee, so its his opinion. Milkis didnot make it up or create it himself.
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On July 22 2011 11:27 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:25 Thrax wrote:On July 22 2011 11:23 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:18 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP? Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses. Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th. EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. ** http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=* EDIT 1:In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially. ** Edit 2:In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far. Good job, Milk really should edit in the EG stance from WoC 12 hours before WoC started. False journalism right there. When new info comes in, journalists update their articles - That's how it works online. If milk is getting paid for the job, sure, he should edit post asap after new facts present itself. Is he? No. Are you saying he should get back to his desk to edit this FORUM post as soon as the WoC show finishes?
i think if the thread itself is gonna create a big discussion and be put on front page, then yes he should or at least someone should, or take it down cause any new people coming in is just gonna read the OP and not be correctly informed
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I keep seeing posts like "all the Korean teams are gonna be locking down their players now" etc etc. Who is to say that these players will want to sign these new contracts? Or be bound to any type of league. I am not familiar with the BW scene but from what I have heard it's basically a concentration camp.
Honestly, what does a SC2 Korean team have to offer? Some food? Shelter? One extremely difficult tournament to train for? The western scene is thriving. The Korean players are taking notice while their teams are not, relying on loyalty, verbal contracts.
Seems to me the Korean teams are doing whats best for the team, and not really looking out for their players.
So if you were a korean pro gamer, and had the option of joinng a foreign team, what would you decide.
Be a slave, or live like a rockstar??
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On July 22 2011 11:22 baumer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:16 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. Again, I do not blame Milkis at all, but I do believe that since the facts are laid out, things like "EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments" should be corrected to reflect it. It's not even that hard. It's a minute of editing from Milkis or from a TL admin. To edit what exactly? The accurate translation of a statement made by the TSL coach on a major korean SCII site? The information posted at the time was accurate, and the source of it was clear. The fact that no other information was available at the time doesn't make posting it wrong. Most journalists (or sites that i've seen for that matter) will go back and add updates or edits when bits of information are found to be incorrect. I think Team Liquid should strive to be more journalistic, there's a real opportunity for them to become a leader in the e-sports (specifically SC2) journalistic world.
Nothing Milkis wrote was factually incorrect. And nothing EG has said changes anything significantly. I mean, 'he hasn't signed yet' doesn't actually change the situation, since that should just be a formality.
Blame for this is squarely on EG PR, because approaching players and actually offering them contracts usually leaks, especially in sports.
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On July 22 2011 11:27 Mioraka wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:25 Thrax wrote:On July 22 2011 11:23 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:18 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:12 Mioraka wrote:On July 22 2011 11:10 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 11:08 Derez wrote:On July 22 2011 10:57 Primadog wrote:On July 22 2011 10:53 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Few things:
Milk is not a licensed journalist - TL.net has no burden of journalistic integrity regardless of how many people view their site. This would be the case if TL were founding themselves as a news entity. You may be saying 'but they are!'; TL hosts an open forum and their existence as a news source is subject to the community's prerogative. In a case such as this, nothing posted on TL needs sources, from all angles, regardless of its contents.
Strong disagreement. TeamLiquid IS the primary news source for all of English-speaking StarCraft community. This is a fact that's undisputable. TL does not and should not "publish" something misleading or factually incorrect, especially when it's featured on its front page. Fallen back to "volunteer" or "no burden of journalistic integrity" is not a stance that should be held by TeamLiquid. Whether Milkis can be squarely blamed for infactual news on TeamLiquid is debatable, but when something is proven false on TL, corrections NEED to be made, immediately. Again, it's a translation. If I were to translate a statement by a dutch member of parliament that was posted on a dutch newssite into english, no journalistic standards apply. If Milkis was writing an essay on how western teams are stealing korean players, the standard would be different. In this case, it's utterly ridiculous to argue that. If the stance of TeamLiquid management is one where they're not accountable for the facts presented on the TL frontpage (at least to the community, whether legal/moral is debatable), than I am ashamed as one of its many, many writers. TeamLiquid is a driving force behind E-sports, our standard is the reason why TL is at the top of the food chain and survived GosuGamers and other competitors. PLEASE, please clarify. Which part of this OP is proven wrong? And what information did EG release that CAN be edited into the OP? Again, I do not place any blame on Milkis. I simply feel that TeamLiquid should make the effort to correct infactual statements. Here's how I will edit the OP, if I have admin access:
Update: TSL Coach Lee Woon Jae explains his stance Coach Lee Woon Jae of TSL talked with TeamLiquid, trying to clear up some of the misunderstandings while explaining the situation from his point of view: "It's not just TSL, but most Starcraft II teams right now run on trust and faith instead of contracts. Because of many similar occurances [to Puma's case], we plan to make contracts mandatory.
Puma was with us for ten months, and where we provided him and his teammates with a good practice environment, food, etc, and developed him as a player. The team didn't take any of the prize money a player earned, all of it went to the player. Unfortunately, Puma wished to join EG so we released him.
To acquire a player, contacting the original team regarding a transfer is a natural courtesy and the way things should be done. That is why I am very angry, and why it is huge topic in Korea right now. The Korean SC II association is preparing some measures, and I believe something similar won't happen again.
EG claims that Puma approached them first regarding joining their team, but this is not true.* As I know it, EG's owner contacted Puma first. Not only Puma, but other Korean players."
TSL announced today that they will be releasing Puma on their team. The team revealed today that after Puma won NASL, Puma directly received interest from a foreign team, Evil Geniuses. Manager Lee noted that "It is disappointing that we have to make a decision like this, but it's extremely objectionable [T/N: displeasing, disgusting, etc] that Evil Geniuses would ignore the coaches completely and directly go talk to the player" TIG confirms that Puma will be joining Evil Geniuses. EG made an offer to Puma after they made it to the round of 4, and after that, Puma had decided that he would accept EG's offer. Puma revealed his intentions to the TSL manager after coming back to Korea. Manager Lee decided to respect the player's wishes in the end. He noted that "It's really disturbing. It feels like the player I raised was just stolen away from me.", adding that "There needs to be a system to stop foreign teams from stealing Korean players like this" Puma had left the TSL house as of the 20th. EG has been revealed to pay Puma a certain amount of salary, and to provide Puma with money for foreign tournaments. ** http://www.playxp.com/news/read.php?news_id=3209550http://www.thisisgame.com/board/view.php?id=709880&board=&category=13438&subcategory=&page=1&best=&searchmode=&search=&orderby=&token=* EDIT 1:In WoC Episode #32, Alex, an EG representative, states this was inaccurate. EG never intend to state that Puma approached them initially. ** Edit 2:In the same episode, EG states that they have not yet signed Puma on contract, nor made any payments to Puma thus far. Good job, Milk really should edit in the EG stance from WoC 12 hours before WoC started. False journalism right there. When new info comes in, journalists update their articles - That's how it works online. If milk is getting paid for the job, sure, he should edit post asap after new facts present itself. Is he? No. Are you saying he should get back to his desk to edit this FORUM post as soon as the WoC show finishes?
From the moment TL features the post as Community News, I think TeamLiquid is responsible to keep the article updated and accurate. Whether that is Milkis (as a volunteer staff) or someone in a more official capacity doesn't matter. Does that have to be done the second WoC finishes? Of course not, we can be reasonable.
In the same way, I would say that EG should have tried to get the article corrected a lot earlier instead of waiting for WoC.
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TL is a community site, not a service site, if you think they own you that they have to update information right when it is available. Please just get out of here because you don't deserve what has been brought to you.
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On July 22 2011 11:26 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2011 11:23 LegendaryZ wrote:On July 22 2011 11:11 zev318 wrote:
im replying to the guy who just did. he said "only a very very small percentage ever makes a decent living out of it" and "much less enough money to retire and live a good life" I didn't say anything about the NBA. I was talking about professional sports in general. And no, the vast majority of player that play professional sports don't actually make enough out of it to retire and live a good life. Only a select few players that devote their lives to a sport, giving up everything they have, will make it into a major team (most never make it past minor leagues) and out of those that do, fewer still have careers that are long enough to accumulate the type of savings to support you for your life. Just because a career path requires you to throw away everything to follow doesn't mean that you should automatically be set for life for following it. Playing professional sports, even well established ones, is a risk from the moment you set your heart on that goal. Taking up an unestablished sport like eSports is even more of a risk and players know it, but are willing to take that leap on the off chance that they do actually find success. then i guess i misinterpreted ur definition of "professional sports"
A minor league baseball player is still a professional baseball player. He just makes a lot less than players who make it to Yankees. There are also more professional basketball leagues than just the NBA so to only look at the minimum NBA salary is misleading. Most professional basketball players don't actually make the minimum NBA salary just like most professional baseball players don't make the minimum MLB salary.
Just to make sure you don't misunderstand me. I don't disagree that players should ideally be able to make a living. I'm just saying that most really don't and find themselves having to find alternate sources of income after their careers and given the current state of eSports and the limited budget teams have right now, it's difficult to expect them to pay their players any reasonable salary on top of their housing and food. The money just isn't there right now for most Korean teams. A team like EG is a bit different because they're much more well-established by comparison and they extend beyond just SC2, but even these more established teams are only now beginning to build player houses and such.
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On July 22 2011 11:30 Jetsfan wrote:
I keep seeing posts like "all the Korean teams are gonna be locking down their players now" etc etc. Who is to say that these players will want to sign these new contracts? Or be bound to any type of league. I am not familiar with the BW scene but from what I have heard it's basically a concentration camp.
Honestly, what does a SC2 Korean team have to offer? Some food? Shelter? One extremely difficult tournament to train for? The western scene is thriving. The Korean players are taking notice while their teams are not, relying on loyalty, verbal contracts.
Seems to me the Korean teams are doing whats best for the team, and not really looking out for their players.
So if you were a korean pro gamer, and had the option of joinng a foreign team, what would you decide.
Be a slave, or live like a rockstar??
i could see some korean pros signing just cause its the culturally right thing to do. not necessarily the best for themselves.
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Anybody think it could have been EG's intention to circumvent the coach so that they couldn't propose one of those outrageous 'transfering fees' AG was talking about?
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On July 22 2011 11:32 DrNK.Zeal wrote:
Anybody think it could have been EG's intention to circumvent the coach so that they couldn't propose one of those outrageous 'transfering fees' AG was talking about?
Very likely. In fact, I just don't trust them in this whole situation.
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EPT
