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[Update] Raidcall situation - Page 5

Forum Index > SC2 General
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etree
Profile Joined July 2011
United States10 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-13 17:37:27
July 13 2011 17:34 GMT
#81
Well it's confirmed. I followed this here from the Blizzard forums. Both my friend and I are banned as of last night for using Raidcall. Blizzard refuses to comment, are now ignoring our support tickets and saying that they have investigated and that they made the right decision entirely.

http://pastebin.com/a5RWaBD1

That's the latest response.
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-13 17:43:44
July 13 2011 17:38 GMT
#82
On July 14 2011 02:16 Morfildur wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2011 02:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On July 14 2011 02:06 noob styles wrote:
On July 14 2011 02:00 Morfildur wrote:
On July 14 2011 01:31 noob styles wrote:
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote:
Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.


an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay


This is so horribly wrong...

An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.



He asked what an overlay was, I gave the most simple example i could think of. Are you saying that the images casters use to cover up replay lengths are not overlays?

Eh, honestly that is what I first assumed they were talking about as well, but pretty clearly its not. And no hes not saying those arent overlays as well, just *not the overlays you are looking for* (/waves hand).

Dont need to be defensive~


You always know how to put it into good words, but i'll still explain it a little further:
They are overlays, but just a totally different kind of overlays.

Most casters actually use irfanview with "Always on Top", "No Menu" and "No Borders" enabled while SC2 runs in Windowed (/Windowed-Fullscreen) mode. This way the caster overlay has no influence on SC2 at all. It's an extra window lying on top.

The voice chat overlays (not just raidcall, i remember TS and Ventrillo had similar) are directly hooking into the rendering process and _could_ modify the information you get, like removing objects or changing textures (for example giving cloaked units a clearly visible texture or - depending on how SC2 is programmed - remove the fog). There is no way for SC2 to know what that overlay exactly does, so Blizzard has to assume the worst.

I think Blizzard will unban those accounts as soon as they exactly know what it does. All they know atm is that there is an application that is hooking into the graphics engine and does who-knows-what.


It's reasonable to assume that SC2 and blizzard have only limited capability to detect 'tampering' due to DX/OGL overlays, and I doubt they're able to tell the difference between a overlay designed for maphacks and one for voicecomms. After all, it was coded as a game, not as a full security software suite. I honestly wouldn't count on any exceptions being made for any programs in the future, you just won't be able to use any DX/OGL overlays that hook up directly into SC2. Which isn't exactly the end of the world.

Did any people get perma banned or is it all 2-3 day bans?
chickenhawk
Profile Joined February 2011
Portugal339 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-13 17:39:55
July 13 2011 17:38 GMT
#83
A) They can ban you for any given time if you violate the terms.
B) Log your IP address banning future accounts.
C) Don't be stupid, follow a companies ToS if you sign them.


B) Stupid since 99% of internet users uses a dynamic ip address
C) In most EU countries the ToS is illegal

Also how con you support a decision that is banning the wrong kind of people?
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
July 13 2011 17:39 GMT
#84
--- Nuked ---
Houkka
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland51 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-13 17:44:19
July 13 2011 17:43 GMT
#85
On July 14 2011 02:39 Inori wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2011 02:25 Tuczniak wrote:
Hopefully they will unban accounts soon.
They made a new line, which we shouldn't cross. It's quite reasonable. Mod makers are more limited, but less hackers.

Funny thing is that almost no hackers got hit by this ban wave.


Where'd you get this information?
“Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist” -George Carlin
Navillus
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1188 Posts
July 13 2011 17:47 GMT
#86
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote:
While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.

Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.

I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.

Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.


Why? Just don't do anything that Blizz is officially against and let others do it at their own risk, I think Blizz should enforce what they see as an actual problem, they obviously can't allow MPQ editing because they don't want to deal with all the figuring out who's doing what and how far they're going, but I don't see why they should go out of their way to get people who are just changing the menu.
"TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa
etree
Profile Joined July 2011
United States10 Posts
July 13 2011 17:51 GMT
#87
On July 14 2011 02:38 Derez wrote:
It's reasonable to assume that SC2 and blizzard have only limited capability to detect 'tampering' due to DX/OGL overlays, and I doubt they're able to tell the difference between a overlay designed for maphacks and one for voicecomms. After all, it was coded as a game, not as a full security software suite. I honestly wouldn't count on any exceptions being made for any programs in the future, you just won't be able to use any DX/OGL overlays that hook up directly into SC2. Which isn't exactly the end of the world.

Did any people get perma banned or is it all 2-3 day bans?



Both my friend and I are perma banned.
Derez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands6068 Posts
July 13 2011 17:58 GMT
#88
On July 14 2011 02:47 Navillus wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote:
While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.

Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.

I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.

Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.


Why? Just don't do anything that Blizz is officially against and let others do it at their own risk, I think Blizz should enforce what they see as an actual problem, they obviously can't allow MPQ editing because they don't want to deal with all the figuring out who's doing what and how far they're going, but I don't see why they should go out of their way to get people who are just changing the menu.


Again, blizzards abilities to detect tampering with MPQ files are probably very limited. They might be able to detect the fact that you're tampering, but not to what extent, and they won't be telling us what they're capable/not capable of doing either.

Under the ToS it's illegal to modify MPQ files, and you are taking a risk.Not that Blizzard will be actively targetting people that replace their loading screen, the risk you take is that they can't tell the difference between a minor infraction of the ToS and all-out hacking. Which is what I assume happened in this case also.
Johnthebold2
Profile Joined July 2011
United States16 Posts
July 13 2011 17:59 GMT
#89
Perma ban here as well. This is the latest response to my help ticket with Blizzard.

"As this issue has been reviewed by multiple representatives, it is now considered closed. Should you have any questions regarding a different account or issue, please feel free to contact us again. However, further inquiries regarding this issue will no longer receive a reply."
Flight
Profile Joined August 2010
Brazil163 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-13 18:00:13
July 13 2011 17:59 GMT
#90
I have a friend that was recently banned for 15 days, and other friend that was banned permanently. Both told me they never used any kind of hacks. I will check if they used raidcall and edit here later. But anyways, looks like Blizzard is getting thrigger happy these days.
Oune
Profile Joined November 2010
Switzerland35 Posts
July 13 2011 18:03 GMT
#91
I got an answer from Blizzard about my mail about Raidcall : They didn't answer the question ...

Nice ...
mindwave1sg
Profile Joined June 2011
Taiwan18 Posts
July 13 2011 18:05 GMT
#92
On July 14 2011 02:59 Johnthebold2 wrote:
Perma ban here as well. This is the latest response to my help ticket with Blizzard.

"As this issue has been reviewed by multiple representatives, it is now considered closed. Should you have any questions regarding a different account or issue, please feel free to contact us again. However, further inquiries regarding this issue will no longer receive a reply."


for people that think they are perma banned, check this link.


http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/account-status
Johnthebold2
Profile Joined July 2011
United States16 Posts
July 13 2011 18:07 GMT
#93
Hmm thanks dude it says I am unbanned on the 15th.
Dalguno
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2446 Posts
July 13 2011 18:11 GMT
#94
So my question is, how do they know you're using RaidCall?
"I'm gonna keep making drones cause I'm a baller, and ballers make drones." -Snute
Holcan
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada2593 Posts
July 13 2011 18:14 GMT
#95
On July 14 2011 03:11 Dalguno wrote:
So my question is, how do they know you're using RaidCall?

If they KNEW it was raidcall, it would be no problem, however they assume its people hooking into overlays (at least thats what ive gathered from this thread)
Reference The Inadvertant Joey, Strong talented orchastrasted intelligent character.
TBO
Profile Joined September 2009
Germany1350 Posts
July 13 2011 18:17 GMT
#96
On July 14 2011 02:38 Derez wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2011 02:16 Morfildur wrote:
On July 14 2011 02:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
On July 14 2011 02:06 noob styles wrote:
On July 14 2011 02:00 Morfildur wrote:
On July 14 2011 01:31 noob styles wrote:
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote:
Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.


an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay


This is so horribly wrong...

An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.



He asked what an overlay was, I gave the most simple example i could think of. Are you saying that the images casters use to cover up replay lengths are not overlays?

Eh, honestly that is what I first assumed they were talking about as well, but pretty clearly its not. And no hes not saying those arent overlays as well, just *not the overlays you are looking for* (/waves hand).

Dont need to be defensive~


You always know how to put it into good words, but i'll still explain it a little further:
They are overlays, but just a totally different kind of overlays.

Most casters actually use irfanview with "Always on Top", "No Menu" and "No Borders" enabled while SC2 runs in Windowed (/Windowed-Fullscreen) mode. This way the caster overlay has no influence on SC2 at all. It's an extra window lying on top.

The voice chat overlays (not just raidcall, i remember TS and Ventrillo had similar) are directly hooking into the rendering process and _could_ modify the information you get, like removing objects or changing textures (for example giving cloaked units a clearly visible texture or - depending on how SC2 is programmed - remove the fog). There is no way for SC2 to know what that overlay exactly does, so Blizzard has to assume the worst.

I think Blizzard will unban those accounts as soon as they exactly know what it does. All they know atm is that there is an application that is hooking into the graphics engine and does who-knows-what.


It's reasonable to assume that SC2 and blizzard have only limited capability to detect 'tampering' due to DX/OGL overlays, and I doubt they're able to tell the difference between a overlay designed for maphacks and one for voicecomms. After all, it was coded as a game, not as a full security software suite. I honestly wouldn't count on any exceptions being made for any programs in the future, you just won't be able to use any DX/OGL overlays that hook up directly into SC2. Which isn't exactly the end of the world.

Did any people get perma banned or is it all 2-3 day bans?


As someone not too experienced with tech stuff like this... the upcoming xsplit versions have the options to directly grab the gamesource from DX / OGL. (I assume what they do is read only though while this raid call did write some stuff on it)... could this also cause problems with warden?
UniversalMind
Profile Joined March 2011
United States326 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-13 18:20:39
July 13 2011 18:20 GMT
#97
Just because your friend is like hey dude download this overlay it will get rid of that problem, doesn't mean you should download and use it. Obviously its throwing a red light to blizzard, you shouldn't complain about blizzard taking action cause of violation of EULA but you should contact the people who made Raidcall and ask them whats going on with your product

If you cant see past that you deserved to be/remained banned
Cyber_Cheese
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Australia3615 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-13 18:24:02
July 13 2011 18:20 GMT
#98
On July 14 2011 00:48 ArcticVanguard wrote:
What happens to people who use steam? Since it has an overlay, I mean. That has me rather worried since I run SC2 from steam.


Blizzard wouldn't ban people using the steam overlay
I think the steam overlay doesn't effect the games rendering in non-steam games anyway
Could a mod change the title to will be banned? Blizzard have specifically stated that this is against their TOS
The moment you lose confidence in yourself, is the moment the world loses it's confidence in you.
Firepaw292
Profile Joined January 2011
Canada126 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-13 18:21:45
July 13 2011 18:21 GMT
#99
edit: missed it
Deleted User 61629
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1664 Posts
July 13 2011 18:22 GMT
#100
--- Nuked ---
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