Tripple Mod EDIT It would appear that this false positive is being cleared up - there have been plenty of reports about people banned for this reason getting their bans reversed. From what Ive been able to find out, players should not be banned for using this program in the future...
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
He asked what an overlay was, I gave the most simple example i could think of. Are you saying that the images casters use to cover up replay lengths are not overlays?
Eh, honestly that is what I first assumed they were talking about as well, but pretty clearly its not. And no hes not saying those arent overlays as well, just *not the overlays you are looking for* (/waves hand).
Dont need to be defensive~
You always know how to put it into good words, but i'll still explain it a little further: They are overlays, but just a totally different kind of overlays.
Most casters actually use irfanview with "Always on Top", "No Menu" and "No Borders" enabled while SC2 runs in Windowed (/Windowed-Fullscreen) mode. This way the caster overlay has no influence on SC2 at all. It's an extra window lying on top.
The voice chat overlays (not just raidcall, i remember TS and Ventrillo had similar) are directly hooking into the rendering process and _could_ modify the information you get, like removing objects or changing textures (for example giving cloaked units a clearly visible texture or - depending on how SC2 is programmed - remove the fog). There is no way for SC2 to know what that overlay exactly does, so Blizzard has to assume the worst.
I think Blizzard will unban those accounts as soon as they exactly know what it does. All they know atm is that there is an application that is hooking into the graphics engine and does who-knows-what.
/Jinro
Me and my friends, never used any cheats/hacks and just got banned from SC2 due to "hacking" (might be because of the raidcall overlay).
Edit: To be safe I suggest ANYONE who doesn't want their account banned to stop using overlays for the time being until we hear an official response about this.
While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
Overlays are very often seen by anti hack program as a real hack. I would suggest you mail blizzard and ask if they would be so kind to find a way to exclude the program. It's not likely though. It might also be possible for the program author to change something.
Teamspeak overlay got quite some people banned by punkbuster a couple of years ago.
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
Actually the fact that they're "detecting" overlays means that Blizzard is the one that should be punished for breaking the law (the actual law, not stupid TOS that means nothing in court).
Mumble also has an overlay, which I typically have enabled... :S Dunno what the overlay of raidcall exactly does, but I'm guessing it's like the one on Mumble, where it merely shows you an overlay that has the names of the people in the channel you're in, and an icon lights up when they're speaking.
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay.
I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it.
On July 14 2011 00:39 SilverPotato wrote: Huh, so the Raidcall overlay, it just gives you information on who's talking to you? But nothing about whats going on in the game?
Yes, exactly.
On July 14 2011 00:41 Torte de Lini wrote: What is raidcall for those who don't use it?
Its a free voice-over-ip program, much like ventrilo but without the need for the same kind of server setup.
On July 14 2011 00:41 denzelz wrote: I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay.
I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it.
Raidcall doesn't modify the game, it only provides an overlay.
On July 14 2011 00:39 SilverPotato wrote: Huh, so the Raidcall overlay, it just gives you information on who's talking to you? But nothing about whats going on in the game?
On July 14 2011 00:41 denzelz wrote: I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay.
I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it.
Raidcall doesn't modify the game, it only provides an overlay.
On July 14 2011 00:39 SilverPotato wrote: Huh, so the Raidcall overlay, it just gives you information on who's talking to you? But nothing about whats going on in the game?
Yes, exactly.
On July 14 2011 00:41 Torte de Lini wrote: What is raidcall for those who don't use it?
Its a free voice-over-ip program, much like ventrilo but without the need for the same kind of server setup.
On July 14 2011 00:41 denzelz wrote: I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay.
I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it.
Raidcall doesn't modify the game, it only provides an overlay.
Maphacks also just provide an overlay.
Maphacks also leech information from starcraft2 to supply information to that overlay, its not the same thing
I mean I don't see the need to run an overlay to see who you are talking to.... shouldn't you know that anyway and is it that inconvenient to tab out for a millisecond to see if it is that important?
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay.
I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it.
WFT you comppletely ok with people being baned for not hacking? .
On July 14 2011 00:49 ilovelings wrote: Are these people serious? The main reason internet developed the way it did, it's because the freedom it provides. He was not cheating so stfu.
Also TOS mean nothing hahaha.
Sure, go ahead and spend money suing Blizzard over a $50 game. I will be eagerly waiting the results in two years.
On July 14 2011 00:52 noob styles wrote: feeling very happy that i have the overlay dissabled in mumble ATM. it really sucks that blizz is banning people for using Raidcall though.
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay.
I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it.
WFT you comppletely ok with people being baned for not hacking? .
I don't see how people are not okay with this, but okay with airport security. This move probably banned a bunch of maphacks in Starcraft 2, while banning a few "innocent" people (who claim they were only using RaidCall). Airport security routinely harass millions of people every day in hopes of finding ONE OR TWO terrorists a day. People on TL are truly ridiculous, arguing for "freedom" over this, while ignoring everything else going on in the world.
Airport security routinely harass millions of people every day in hopes of finding ONE OR TWO terrorists a day. People on TL are truly ridiculous, arguing for "freedom" over this, while ignoring everything else going on in the world.
You heard it here first folks, catching terrorists and map hackers is of equal importance.
On July 14 2011 00:52 noob styles wrote: feeling very happy that i have the overlay dissabled in mumble ATM. it really sucks that blizz is banning people for using Raidcall though.
On July 14 2011 00:41 denzelz wrote:
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay.
I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it.
WFT you comppletely ok with people being baned for not hacking? .
I don't see how people are not okay with this, but okay with airport security. This move probably banned a bunch of maphacks in Starcraft 2, while banning a few "innocent" people (who claim they were only using RaidCall). Airport security routinely harass millions of people every day in hopes of finding ONE OR TWO terrorists a day. People on TL are truly ridiculous, arguing for "freedom" over this, while ignoring everything else going on in the world.
Yes let’s give up all our freedom. All hail dictator Blizzard! They’ll protect up from all the hackers, and anyone that gets caught in the cross fire can shut the fuck up!
EDIT: Also basically ever caster used for sort of overlay program to cover the replay length. I wonder if they'll be any 'high profile' banings?
EDIT2: first sentence was unnecessary and over the top
You get banned for using a 3rd party program even though when you agree to the blizzard EULA it says not to use 3rd party program and you complain about it? Isn't this your own dumb fault?
Ouch, that sucks. My guess is that it's just a false-positive, and not that Blizzard decided to "draw the line" and include harmless overlays like these. I'd e-mail them and tell them what happened, maybe they'll do something about it.
Obviously the problem is with Raidcall's overlay giving off false positives. If you run overlays or anything that interferes with the game in any way you run the risk of this happening, which you should've been aware of from the start. I've always disabled overlays for this reason. They're not very useful anyway.
Is it not pretty obvious that you should not be using overlays tho? I mean an overlay could be something innocent, like a playlist for Mp3's, or it could be a cheat such as a maphack or production tab.
If i was designing Warden i would make it react to any type of overlay over the game.
And as mentioned before the same issue has popped up with overlays in the past with other cheatdetectors, hence why i never use them while gaming.
On July 14 2011 00:48 ArcticVanguard wrote: What happens to people who use steam? Since it has an overlay, I mean. That has me rather worried since I run SC2 from steam.
I just deleted my SC2 shortcut from Steam. Better safe than sorry.
On July 14 2011 00:49 ilovelings wrote: Are these people serious? The main reason internet developed the way it did, it's because the freedom it provides. He was not cheating so stfu.
Also TOS mean nothing hahaha.
maybe in court, are you going to sue them for banning you?
If Blizzard is letting Steam sell you SC2, I have a really hard time beliving they will ban you for it! Calm down people!
There might be some softwares that triggers a ban from Blizzard, but shouldn't you just call blizzard and ask them what made them ban you instead of guessing?
probably spottet people hiding stuff under those overlays and felt to save, so a general ban was in order. Like any copy protections: "To bad for the innocent, but you can thank the cheaters".
Its interesting though, would be interesting how they could check for overlays, would be lovely to see everyone using overlays banned all around the mmo genre, though it would get pretty lonley lol.
Wonder if they unban people again, i mean teamspeak is generally accepted. Or in a few days everyone streaming will be banned too :3.
My guess is on an automated banning mistake, they will unban people but tell them that overlays are no go from now on. Its a nice pr now, hey we can detect overlays legally now fear us 3rd party tool users.
On July 14 2011 01:23 Jiddra wrote: If Blizzard is letting Steam sell you SC2, I have a really hard time beliving they will ban you for it! Calm down people!
There might be some softwares that triggers a ban from Blizzard, but shouldn't you just call blizzard and ask them what made them ban you instead of guessing?
steam isnt selling the game..btu with any game u can add it to ur list of games in steam and u can launch and use the overlay in any game.
And i dont see the big deal. You knew 3rd party programs were prohibited so dont use them? When i use to raid back in vanilla wow...i could pick out someones voice out of a possible of 50 people(for the most part) so i dont know why people feel the need to have a overlay especially for a mostly small group game.
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
Forgive me if I'm incorrect but everyone saying stuff like "you shouldnt have used a third party program its your own fault", as far as I know, this overlay and countless like it do not receive any information from the game and do not modify anything in the game, and there is a very clear difference between a maphack and a tool giving you information about things unrelated to your starcraft 2 game.
Im all for catching map/drop/whatever hackers but the whole innocent until proven guilty mentality exists for a reason to protect people who just harmlessly want to see who is talking in their VOIP channel. As many people have pointed out, steam, vent, teamspeak, mumble all have overlays of some kind, not to mention the overlays that casters use.
Anyways, obviously no one but blizzard has the full story here but it seems a little weird to me at this point. My $0.02.
On July 14 2011 00:52 noob styles wrote: feeling very happy that i have the overlay dissabled in mumble ATM. it really sucks that blizz is banning people for using Raidcall though.
On July 14 2011 00:41 denzelz wrote:
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay.
I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it.
WFT you comppletely ok with people being baned for not hacking? .
I don't see how people are not okay with this, but okay with airport security. This move probably banned a bunch of maphacks in Starcraft 2, while banning a few "innocent" people (who claim they were only using RaidCall). Airport security routinely harass millions of people every day in hopes of finding ONE OR TWO terrorists a day. People on TL are truly ridiculous, arguing for "freedom" over this, while ignoring everything else going on in the world.
There has been a lot of outrage and controversy at recent airport security measures, not sure what world you live in.
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
Actually the fact that they're "detecting" overlays means that Blizzard is the one that should be punished for breaking the law (the actual law, not stupid TOS that means nothing in court).
Oh here we go again.
Lawyers ahoy!
Estonian Lawyers ahoy! I love it when people do this shit. Well everyone should sue {insert referenced company} because I don't like what they just did. Let's start by signing an internet petition! Then if all that fails we'll just get anonymous to attack them!
Seriously side, how does raidcall differ in functionality from Skype? I'm unfamiliar with the program and don't see how you'd be seriously limited by using a program that doesn't have an overlay.
On July 14 2011 01:40 VassiliZaytsev wrote: Forgive me if I'm incorrect but everyone saying stuff like "you shouldnt have used a third party program its your own fault", as far as I know, this overlay and countless like it do not receive any information from the game and do not modify anything in the game, and there is a very clear difference between a maphack and a tool giving you information about things unrelated to your starcraft 2 game.
Im all for catching map/drop/whatever hackers but the whole innocent until proven guilty mentality exists for a reason to protect people who just harmlessly want to see who is talking in their VOIP channel. As many people have pointed out, steam, vent, teamspeak, mumble all have overlays of some kind, not to mention the overlays that casters use.
Anyways, obviously no one but blizzard has the full story here but it seems a little weird to me at this point. My $0.02.
It depends on the overlay. Some overlays mess with the game by becoming a part of the hardware accelerated game rendering. Also, this isn't the first time overlays have caused false positives. It's third party and can interfere with the game. It's pretty clear cut.
I didn't read the all the whine in this thread but I just wanted to ask, what makes you think it was raidcall? Maybe it's a mistake or about something else.
Its pretty definitively RaidCall. Me and my friends all use the program and are not cheaters in any way shape or form. All of us were banned. You do the math.
On July 14 2011 01:46 Piski wrote: I didn't read the all the whine in this thread but I just wanted to ask, what makes you think it was raidcall? Maybe it's a mistake or about something else.
Because most of the people who got banned were using raidcall, not a very difficult problem to solve.
Wait what, people are siding with blizzard over all these false positive bans? :S Since when was it okay for the innocent to be punished for the acts of the few who decide to fuck things up :S.
For all the "well if it gets rid of maphackers its okay" group.. herpa, it doesnt work that way.
I have a guy on my friend list who i've reported many times, and he openly admits in chat that he maphacks, logged in this evening - not banned.
Wish i had more than an anecdote for that actually.. but it's pretty astounding that everyone is saying "yah its okay to ban people for no reason" Especially when blizzard charge $60 a pop for this game, and being banned instantly fucks over any reputation you'd have held within the game
Origination In-game Activity Ban Type: in-game activities that violate the Terms of Use. Expires: Friday, July 15, 2011 6:59:33 PM PDT (in 2 days, 9 hours) Ban Reason: N/A
also please stop saying things like "oh its 3rd party, its against the rules" There's a very big distinction between 3rd party and independent programs.
I didn't read the all the whine in this thread but I just wanted to ask, what makes you think it was raidcall? Maybe it's a mistake or about something else.
You should have read the entire thread. The community compared resources to find a common association and everyone was using some kind of overlay program, specifically a lot of people where using RaidCall.
Don't know if anyone knows the answer to the question, but what happens if the overlay is being displayed on a second monitor? Does it still interact with the game in the same manner, thus possibly causing a false/positive. Trying to determine if it is best to turn off overlay programs at this time or if it is safe to leave the program on my second monitor.
I would suggest to those of you using Raidcall to tell Raidcall directly that an issue is popping up. Considering they sponsor a sc2 team they might be willing to help with blizzard issues. At the very least they will probably change there program in the future so it wont be getting people banned.
I would also suggest to anyone else using a popular program with an overlay to contact the makers of the program informing them of the possibility of this happening, spreading it around quickly will help less false-positives pop up!
Does anyone know how the overlay gave Warden (or whatever) the false positive? I'm rather worried by this news since I'm working on a casting program that might cause a similar trip if it's just triggered by drawing on the screen by an unrecognized program.
On July 14 2011 01:46 vrok wrote: It depends on the overlay. Some overlays mess with the game by becoming a part of the hardware accelerated game rendering. Also, this isn't the first time overlays have caused false positives. It's third party and can interfere with the game. It's pretty clear cut.
This sounds legitimate - Maybe raidcall hooks onto the gpu rendering thread when the game is fullscreen mode so it can still draw on the screen (and therefore those using raidcall who didn't get banned were in either of SC2's windowed modes?).
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
On July 14 2011 00:49 ilovelings wrote: Are these people serious? The main reason internet developed the way it did, it's because the freedom it provides. He was not cheating so stfu.
Also TOS mean nothing hahaha.
Yep those "terms of service" mean nothing.
Don't be an idiot, if you pay for the game, and agree (sign) the terms of service which clearly state that this kind of thing is against policy then it means that:
A) They can ban you for any given time if you violate the terms. B) Log your IP address banning future accounts. C) Don't be stupid, follow a companies ToS if you sign them.
Blizzard's in game voice chat system never works for my friends and I, so we use skype.
But if I had in-game friends who I don't know in person, I wouldn't want to add them on skype, so a 3rd party program like raidcall would be really useful.
On July 14 2011 00:49 ilovelings wrote: Are these people serious? The main reason internet developed the way it did, it's because the freedom it provides. He was not cheating so stfu.
Also TOS mean nothing hahaha.
Yep those "terms of service" mean nothing.
Don't be an idiot, if you pay for the game, and agree (sign) the terms of service which clearly state that this kind of thing is against policy then it means that:
A) They can ban you for any given time if you violate the terms. B) Log your IP address banning future accounts. C) Don't be stupid, follow a companies ToS if you sign them.
Are you really saying he deserved to be banned for using raid call? It's ridiculous yet Blizzard have done a terrible job with banning the drophackers and the normal hackers or w/e.
On July 14 2011 02:01 ilion wrote: But if I had in-game friends who I don't know in person, I wouldn't want to add them on skype, so a 3rd party program like raidcall would be really useful.
Raidcall isn't the only program for this purpose. And most programs that have the overlay option have the option to turn the overlay off as well. So you can use it without the overlay, so you (probably) won't be against the ToS.
Also, I don't think voice-chat programs like raidcall, ventrilo, mumble, teamspeak, etc. count as "3rd party".
EDIT: Just to be clear, I think these bans are not ok. I want to know if I can use FRAPS?
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
He asked what an overlay was, I gave the most simple example i could think of. Are you saying that the images casters use to cover up replay lengths are not overlays?
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
He asked what an overlay was, I gave the most simple example i could think of. Are you saying that the images casters use to cover up replay lengths are not overlays?
Eh, honestly that is what I first assumed they were talking about as well, but pretty clearly its not. And no hes not saying those arent overlays as well, just *not the overlays you are looking for* (/waves hand).
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
Thanks for clarifying, I had originally thought any open window that I placed on top of SC2 would count. This seems more reasonable.
On July 14 2011 00:49 ilovelings wrote: Are these people serious? The main reason internet developed the way it did, it's because the freedom it provides. He was not cheating so stfu.
Also TOS mean nothing hahaha.
Blizzard is a corporation and Bnet 2.0 is a privately-owned space. They only need to cater to our desire for "freedom" insofar as they can profit off our "freedom." While the Internet might offer seemingly infinite customizable options, I'd hardly argue that it is a place of "freedom."
They should enforce the TOS and they should draw the line somewhere. I see no reason for anyone to "stfu" because they are claiming that Blizz has a right to ban.
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
He asked what an overlay was, I gave the most simple example i could think of. Are you saying that the images casters use to cover up replay lengths are not overlays?
Eh, honestly that is what I first assumed they were talking about as well, but pretty clearly its not. And no hes not saying those arent overlays as well, just *not the overlays you are looking for* (/waves hand).
Dont need to be defensive~
You always know how to put it into good words, but i'll still explain it a little further: They are overlays, but just a totally different kind of overlays.
Most casters actually use irfanview with "Always on Top", "No Menu" and "No Borders" enabled while SC2 runs in Windowed (/Windowed-Fullscreen) mode. This way the caster overlay has no influence on SC2 at all. It's an extra window lying on top.
The voice chat overlays (not just raidcall, i remember TS and Ventrillo had similar) are directly hooking into the rendering process and _could_ modify the information you get, like removing objects or changing textures (for example giving cloaked units a clearly visible texture or - depending on how SC2 is programmed - remove the fog). There is no way for SC2 to know what that overlay exactly does, so Blizzard has to assume the worst.
I think Blizzard will unban those accounts as soon as they exactly know what it does. All they know atm is that there is an application that is hooking into the graphics engine and does who-knows-what.
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
OP should quote this. As a technological noob I had no idea this is what was being discussed. It all makes a ton more sense now.
Hopefully they will unban accounts soon. They made a new line, which we shouldn't cross. It's quite reasonable. Mod makers are more limited, but less hackers.
Well it's confirmed. I followed this here from the Blizzard forums. Both my friend and I are banned as of last night for using Raidcall. Blizzard refuses to comment, are now ignoring our support tickets and saying that they have investigated and that they made the right decision entirely.
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
He asked what an overlay was, I gave the most simple example i could think of. Are you saying that the images casters use to cover up replay lengths are not overlays?
Eh, honestly that is what I first assumed they were talking about as well, but pretty clearly its not. And no hes not saying those arent overlays as well, just *not the overlays you are looking for* (/waves hand).
Dont need to be defensive~
You always know how to put it into good words, but i'll still explain it a little further: They are overlays, but just a totally different kind of overlays.
Most casters actually use irfanview with "Always on Top", "No Menu" and "No Borders" enabled while SC2 runs in Windowed (/Windowed-Fullscreen) mode. This way the caster overlay has no influence on SC2 at all. It's an extra window lying on top.
The voice chat overlays (not just raidcall, i remember TS and Ventrillo had similar) are directly hooking into the rendering process and _could_ modify the information you get, like removing objects or changing textures (for example giving cloaked units a clearly visible texture or - depending on how SC2 is programmed - remove the fog). There is no way for SC2 to know what that overlay exactly does, so Blizzard has to assume the worst.
I think Blizzard will unban those accounts as soon as they exactly know what it does. All they know atm is that there is an application that is hooking into the graphics engine and does who-knows-what.
It's reasonable to assume that SC2 and blizzard have only limited capability to detect 'tampering' due to DX/OGL overlays, and I doubt they're able to tell the difference between a overlay designed for maphacks and one for voicecomms. After all, it was coded as a game, not as a full security software suite. I honestly wouldn't count on any exceptions being made for any programs in the future, you just won't be able to use any DX/OGL overlays that hook up directly into SC2. Which isn't exactly the end of the world.
Did any people get perma banned or is it all 2-3 day bans?
A) They can ban you for any given time if you violate the terms. B) Log your IP address banning future accounts. C) Don't be stupid, follow a companies ToS if you sign them.
B) Stupid since 99% of internet users uses a dynamic ip address C) In most EU countries the ToS is illegal
Also how con you support a decision that is banning the wrong kind of people?
On July 14 2011 02:25 Tuczniak wrote: Hopefully they will unban accounts soon. They made a new line, which we shouldn't cross. It's quite reasonable. Mod makers are more limited, but less hackers.
Funny thing is that almost no hackers got hit by this ban wave.
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
Why? Just don't do anything that Blizz is officially against and let others do it at their own risk, I think Blizz should enforce what they see as an actual problem, they obviously can't allow MPQ editing because they don't want to deal with all the figuring out who's doing what and how far they're going, but I don't see why they should go out of their way to get people who are just changing the menu.
On July 14 2011 02:38 Derez wrote: It's reasonable to assume that SC2 and blizzard have only limited capability to detect 'tampering' due to DX/OGL overlays, and I doubt they're able to tell the difference between a overlay designed for maphacks and one for voicecomms. After all, it was coded as a game, not as a full security software suite. I honestly wouldn't count on any exceptions being made for any programs in the future, you just won't be able to use any DX/OGL overlays that hook up directly into SC2. Which isn't exactly the end of the world.
Did any people get perma banned or is it all 2-3 day bans?
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
Why? Just don't do anything that Blizz is officially against and let others do it at their own risk, I think Blizz should enforce what they see as an actual problem, they obviously can't allow MPQ editing because they don't want to deal with all the figuring out who's doing what and how far they're going, but I don't see why they should go out of their way to get people who are just changing the menu.
Again, blizzards abilities to detect tampering with MPQ files are probably very limited. They might be able to detect the fact that you're tampering, but not to what extent, and they won't be telling us what they're capable/not capable of doing either.
Under the ToS it's illegal to modify MPQ files, and you are taking a risk.Not that Blizzard will be actively targetting people that replace their loading screen, the risk you take is that they can't tell the difference between a minor infraction of the ToS and all-out hacking. Which is what I assume happened in this case also.
Perma ban here as well. This is the latest response to my help ticket with Blizzard.
"As this issue has been reviewed by multiple representatives, it is now considered closed. Should you have any questions regarding a different account or issue, please feel free to contact us again. However, further inquiries regarding this issue will no longer receive a reply."
I have a friend that was recently banned for 15 days, and other friend that was banned permanently. Both told me they never used any kind of hacks. I will check if they used raidcall and edit here later. But anyways, looks like Blizzard is getting thrigger happy these days.
On July 14 2011 02:59 Johnthebold2 wrote: Perma ban here as well. This is the latest response to my help ticket with Blizzard.
"As this issue has been reviewed by multiple representatives, it is now considered closed. Should you have any questions regarding a different account or issue, please feel free to contact us again. However, further inquiries regarding this issue will no longer receive a reply."
for people that think they are perma banned, check this link.
On July 14 2011 03:11 Dalguno wrote: So my question is, how do they know you're using RaidCall?
If they KNEW it was raidcall, it would be no problem, however they assume its people hooking into overlays (at least thats what ive gathered from this thread)
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
He asked what an overlay was, I gave the most simple example i could think of. Are you saying that the images casters use to cover up replay lengths are not overlays?
Eh, honestly that is what I first assumed they were talking about as well, but pretty clearly its not. And no hes not saying those arent overlays as well, just *not the overlays you are looking for* (/waves hand).
Dont need to be defensive~
You always know how to put it into good words, but i'll still explain it a little further: They are overlays, but just a totally different kind of overlays.
Most casters actually use irfanview with "Always on Top", "No Menu" and "No Borders" enabled while SC2 runs in Windowed (/Windowed-Fullscreen) mode. This way the caster overlay has no influence on SC2 at all. It's an extra window lying on top.
The voice chat overlays (not just raidcall, i remember TS and Ventrillo had similar) are directly hooking into the rendering process and _could_ modify the information you get, like removing objects or changing textures (for example giving cloaked units a clearly visible texture or - depending on how SC2 is programmed - remove the fog). There is no way for SC2 to know what that overlay exactly does, so Blizzard has to assume the worst.
I think Blizzard will unban those accounts as soon as they exactly know what it does. All they know atm is that there is an application that is hooking into the graphics engine and does who-knows-what.
It's reasonable to assume that SC2 and blizzard have only limited capability to detect 'tampering' due to DX/OGL overlays, and I doubt they're able to tell the difference between a overlay designed for maphacks and one for voicecomms. After all, it was coded as a game, not as a full security software suite. I honestly wouldn't count on any exceptions being made for any programs in the future, you just won't be able to use any DX/OGL overlays that hook up directly into SC2. Which isn't exactly the end of the world.
Did any people get perma banned or is it all 2-3 day bans?
As someone not too experienced with tech stuff like this... the upcoming xsplit versions have the options to directly grab the gamesource from DX / OGL. (I assume what they do is read only though while this raid call did write some stuff on it)... could this also cause problems with warden?
Just because your friend is like hey dude download this overlay it will get rid of that problem, doesn't mean you should download and use it. Obviously its throwing a red light to blizzard, you shouldn't complain about blizzard taking action cause of violation of EULA but you should contact the people who made Raidcall and ask them whats going on with your product
If you cant see past that you deserved to be/remained banned
On July 14 2011 00:48 ArcticVanguard wrote: What happens to people who use steam? Since it has an overlay, I mean. That has me rather worried since I run SC2 from steam.
Blizzard wouldn't ban people using the steam overlay I think the steam overlay doesn't effect the games rendering in non-steam games anyway Could a mod change the title to will be banned? Blizzard have specifically stated that this is against their TOS
On July 14 2011 00:48 ArcticVanguard wrote: What happens to people who use steam? Since it has an overlay, I mean. That has me rather worried since I run SC2 from steam.
Blizzard wouldn't ban people using the steam overlay I think the steam overlay doesn't effect the games rendering in non-steam games anyway Could a mod change the title to will be banned? Blizzard have specifically stated that this is against their TOS
RaidCall overlay against the TOS ?
Then, I hope that blizzard will do something against RaidCall. Oh, I forgot ... RaidCall are involved in esport ...
"Please understand that violations of this type have a highly negative impact on the game's integrity and on other players as well"
"This decision has been reached in order to uphold the integrity of the game as a whole, and has not been taken lightly."
These are the two sentences I find most hilarious from the email response. I would LOVE to hear how Raidcall specifically has a negative impact on the game, maybe since the in game voice feature doesn't work for a lot of people, they figure anyone using an outside voice program must be 1337 h4x0rs yo!
In regards to sentence two, mass banning doesn't come off to me as a matter taken seriously, when these are clearly auto bans rather then seriously investigating people who have been reported of hacking, especially those caught admitting to it.
Assuming Morfildur is correct, people should direct their anger toward RaidCall rather than Blizzard, or towards themself for not understanding or investigating what product they're using.
On July 14 2011 01:27 Scipaeus121212 wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but what are the "overlays"? Im not really sure what programs are dangerous and what aren't.
an overlay is just an image ontop of another eg Day9 has the day9 logo covering replay lengths when hes doing the daily. the image covering the replay length is an overlay
This is so horribly wrong...
An overlay in this case is a DirectX/OpenGL Hook that changes the output, for example by adding additional (external) information like "who is speaking on the voice chat". It has nothing at all to do with the overlay images Day9 or other casters use. The DX/OGL Hooks plug directly into the game and can do basically anything with the output before it's rendered. Remove objects, remove textures, etc., so the situation is a lot more complex as SC2 can only detect if something is happening between it sending rendering information to the graphics card and the actual rendering, but not what exactly is happening.
This will affect screen capture programs as well, won't it?
Fraps uses DirectX hooking (it is probably whitelisted) Dxtory? Xsplit uses GDI instead (according to R1CH), so it won't be affected, but they plan to implement an "Add Game.." feature which could be affected.
This means you will be in a grayzone if you are streaming. They could autoban every streamer that use tools that hook OGL/DirectX and which are not in a Blizzard whitelist.
On July 14 2011 03:36 Battleaxe wrote: "Please understand that violations of this type have a highly negative impact on the game's integrity and on other players as well"
"This decision has been reached in order to uphold the integrity of the game as a whole, and has not been taken lightly."
These are the two sentences I find most hilarious from the email response. I would LOVE to hear how Raidcall specifically has a negative impact on the game, maybe since the in game voice feature doesn't work for a lot of people, they figure anyone using an outside voice program must be 1337 h4x0rs yo!
In regards to sentence two, mass banning doesn't come off to me as a matter taken seriously, when these are clearly auto bans rather then seriously investigating people who have been reported of hacking, especially those caught admitting to it.
It's likely they can't determine exactly what it is or what it's doing, and it's better to assume the worst, like what everyone else in the thread said. How about instead of breaking the ToS and whining when you get banned you just don't break the ToS?
Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
On July 14 2011 03:41 R1CH wrote: Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
looks like everyone i know that got banned is gona get unbanned in 2 days.
Origination In-game Activity Ban Type: in-game activities that violate the Terms of Use. Expires: Friday, July 15, 2011 6:59:33 PM PDT (in 2 days, 7 hours) Ban Reason: N/A
On July 14 2011 00:48 ArcticVanguard wrote: What happens to people who use steam? Since it has an overlay, I mean. That has me rather worried since I run SC2 from steam.
Blizzard wouldn't ban people using the steam overlay I think the steam overlay doesn't effect the games rendering in non-steam games anyway Could a mod change the title to will be banned? Blizzard have specifically stated that this is against their TOS
Saying that Blizzard wont ban you for using steam makes no more sense than saying they wont ban people for using voice chat software.
Also, I don't see why the ToS is more relevant for this voice chat program than for any other software. I admit I haven't read it, like most people, but if it does not state something like "third party programs - that modify the game play", then for example using an antivirus is against the ToS as well.
ToS agreements and EULA's tend to be written so they basically mean "if we want to discontinue the service for any reason what so ever it is covered in the user agreement". Which ironically is why caring about EULA's and ToS agreements is generally pointless as well
On July 14 2011 03:41 R1CH wrote: Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
This could have been just a serious backlash against the advertising that those drophacks did for hacks in general. Some of the popular hacks out use overlays for production hacking and general maphacking. I wouldn't be surprised that they just turned up the heat for a couple of weeks. Hopefully they fix anybody somehow caught in the fire by dumb luck.
Airport security routinely harass millions of people every day in hopes of finding ONE OR TWO terrorists a day. People on TL are truly ridiculous, arguing for "freedom" over this, while ignoring everything else going on in the world.
You heard it here first folks, catching terrorists and map hackers is of equal importance.
On July 14 2011 03:41 R1CH wrote: Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
Exactly, Blizzard can't really account for EVERY somewhat unknown program that is harmless.
I do agree that wrongfully banned people should be unbanned though but it's gonna take a while to investigate each individual case..
On July 14 2011 00:48 ArcticVanguard wrote: What happens to people who use steam? Since it has an overlay, I mean. That has me rather worried since I run SC2 from steam.
Blizzard wouldn't ban people using the steam overlay I think the steam overlay doesn't effect the games rendering in non-steam games anyway Could a mod change the title to will be banned? Blizzard have specifically stated that this is against their TOS
Saying that Blizzard wont ban you for using steam makes no more sense than saying they wont ban people for using voice chat software.
Not necessarily. Steam is almost universal these days for PC gamers. Creating some sort of exception for Steam interaction seems like a no brainer when designing security like Warden. For more obscure 3rd party aps, however, you'd be lucky to find any sort of acknowledgment it even exists.
How is Blizzard supposed to keep support and keep growing when they ban their professional players and the fanbase. These are the people that will be preordering your next games.
Seriously, they can't really believe there were (from it seems like) a few thousand people including professionals all hacking the same exact way...
On July 14 2011 00:48 ArcticVanguard wrote: What happens to people who use steam? Since it has an overlay, I mean. That has me rather worried since I run SC2 from steam.
Blizzard wouldn't ban people using the steam overlay I think the steam overlay doesn't effect the games rendering in non-steam games anyway Could a mod change the title to will be banned? Blizzard have specifically stated that this is against their TOS
Saying that Blizzard wont ban you for using steam makes no more sense than saying they wont ban people for using voice chat software.
Also, I don't see why the ToS is more relevant for this voice chat program than for any other software. I admit I haven't read it, like most people, but if it does not state something like "third party programs - that modify the game play", then for example using an antivirus is against the ToS as well.
ToS agreements and EULA's tend to be written so they basically mean "if we want to discontinue the service for any reason what so ever it is covered in the user agreement". Which ironically is why caring about EULA's and ToS agreements is generally pointless as well
How does an anti-virus program modify your gameplay?
Steam, FRAPS and DXTory all use page flip hooking to draw overlays exactly like Raidcall does. There are differences in the implementation but the concepts are the same.
The thing is programs that can be "hacks" or change online gameplay can use the same hooks as these "overlay" programs and as such should be prevented until blizzard knows exactly which can do what and then whitelist or ban them based on those results.
On July 14 2011 04:01 timewaster wrote: I would say that my account was hacked and I wasn't the one using the overlay. Maybe they'll be nicer in not perma banning you?
No one(very rare cases for permabans have been reported) is getting perma banned even repeated map hackers are only getting 3day bans which are really meaningless coming at a time between seasons.
On July 14 2011 03:41 R1CH wrote: Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
this situation has never come up with regards to wow
On July 14 2011 00:48 ArcticVanguard wrote: What happens to people who use steam? Since it has an overlay, I mean. That has me rather worried since I run SC2 from steam.
Blizzard wouldn't ban people using the steam overlay I think the steam overlay doesn't effect the games rendering in non-steam games anyway Could a mod change the title to will be banned? Blizzard have specifically stated that this is against their TOS
Saying that Blizzard wont ban you for using steam makes no more sense than saying they wont ban people for using voice chat software.
Not necessarily. Steam is almost universal these days for PC gamers. Creating some sort of exception for Steam interaction seems like a no brainer when designing security like Warden. For more obscure 3rd party aps, however, you'd be lucky to find any sort of acknowledgment it even exists.
I'm sure most understand that it's unlikely that you will get banned for using steam overlays but I'm quite sure even Blizzard sc2 developers would have said it's extremely unlikely that you would get banned for using voice chat programs before this happened as well. It boils down to that when they handle it like this there is simply no way for the average "non hacking" users to know what might get them banned.
On July 14 2011 03:41 R1CH wrote: Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
Few years ago, Warden was updated, and it incorrectly diagnosed anyone running WoW through Linux (afaik, specifically, Cedega) were using a hack, and massively banned all WoW Linux users. Backlash happened, Blizzard apologized, and unbanned all affected Linux users.
For those who understand Frensh, the answer I reseved about the RaidCall Overlay : + Show Spoiler +
J'ai bien pris connaissance de votre requête concernant l'Overlay de Raidcall.
J'ai vérifié les communications de nos développeurs dernièrement, nous n'avons pas reçu d'information particulière concernant cette fonctionnalité et/ou ce programme.
Ce que je vous conseille de faire c'est de poser la question sur les forums, en particulier les forums américains, qui permettent une communication plus directe et rapide avec les développeurs.
Je ne peux m'engager en leur nom et donc pas vous garantir une réponse de leur part, mais il me semble que c'est la meilleure marche à suivre.
Merci de votre patience et compréhension, en espérant que vous obtiendrez rapidement une réponse à ce sujet.
To sum up : They don't know about an issue with raidcall. But he suggests to try the americain forums. Has somebody already posted about ?
[Edit] : Ok, nice. No perm. ban anymore only for 3 days
On July 14 2011 00:48 ArcticVanguard wrote: What happens to people who use steam? Since it has an overlay, I mean. That has me rather worried since I run SC2 from steam.
Blizzard wouldn't ban people using the steam overlay I think the steam overlay doesn't effect the games rendering in non-steam games anyway Could a mod change the title to will be banned? Blizzard have specifically stated that this is against their TOS
Saying that Blizzard wont ban you for using steam makes no more sense than saying they wont ban people for using voice chat software.
Also, I don't see why the ToS is more relevant for this voice chat program than for any other software. I admit I haven't read it, like most people, but if it does not state something like "third party programs - that modify the game play", then for example using an antivirus is against the ToS as well.
ToS agreements and EULA's tend to be written so they basically mean "if we want to discontinue the service for any reason what so ever it is covered in the user agreement". Which ironically is why caring about EULA's and ToS agreements is generally pointless as well
How does an anti-virus program modify your gameplay?
Ty rich ;p.
I didn't say it does, which most would probably say about voice chat programs as well.
Well luckily this time it was discovered as a false-positive because raidcall has so many users. What happens when some random playing with a program open he doesn't realise will also register in their hack detection system and gets banned?
On July 14 2011 03:41 R1CH wrote: Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
That does happen actually. Had a small program that gave out RGB values to copy and paste for coding and such. AVG told me it's a virus. Had an old Japanese game installer in one of my folders. OMG VIRUS
On July 14 2011 03:41 R1CH wrote: Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
this situation has never come up with regards to wow
It sort of has, I guess. There was a WoW Add-on that calculated the damage zone (current or predicted) of AoE effects in raid battles and drew a colored damage field in the 3d space of the game. It trivialized some raid fights like Putricide where it literally became as brainless as "use this add-on and avoid the colored circles." In that case, though, Blizzard just patched the dependency out and effectively disabled the add-on rather than outright banning the users. They're probably a bit touchier in SC2 because there's more direct competition between players.
On July 14 2011 03:41 R1CH wrote: Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
this situation has never come up with regards to wow
It sort of has, I guess. There was a WoW Add-on that calculated the damage zone (current or predicted) of AoE effects in raid battles and drew a colored damage field in the 3d space of the game. It trivialized some raid fights like Putricide where it literally became as brainless as "use this add-on and avoid the colored circles." In that case, though, Blizzard just patched the dependency out and effectively disabled the add-on rather than outright banning the users. They're probably a bit touchier in SC2 because there's more direct competition between players.
That, and the add-on in question (cleverly) used built in API for add-ons to accomplish those overlays. SC2 by default does not allow ANY customization to the default UI beyond the options given in the menu (and custom maps). In the case of the WoW add-on (AVR is the name), Blizzard originally gave the capability to add-on devs, so to ban players using the add-ons would be like banning people for stacking Vikings before it was patched out.
Actually my friend has just called Blizzard support. All accounts that have been banned for this reason are PERMANENTLY closed. Supposedly they were reviewed and approved to be closed by their head of department and will not be re-opened. The only way you can do it now is probably to file a class-action lawsuit against Blizzard and hope for the best.
Both my and my friend's account status says Unban in 2 days but he called and got that response. So I don't know if that's just when the message expires or they're wrong.
I did not get banned but many of my friends did. I feel very bad about them and this is completely BS. Those employees are likely to have a quota on how many people to ban so they just slack off and did some horrible job.
On July 14 2011 04:50 Laggard wrote: Those employees are likely to have a quota on how many people to ban so they just slack off and did some horrible job.
I'm 100% sure that Blizzard doesn't have a quota on how many people their customer service people ban. Seriously.
On July 14 2011 04:50 Laggard wrote: Those employees are likely to have a quota on how many people to ban so they just slack off and did some horrible job.
I'm 100% sure that Blizzard doesn't have a quota on how many people their customer service people ban. Seriously.
You shouldn't be banned for streaming games but I'd double check with their support first. It's better than getting banned like us for a stupid reason.
I use mumble for voicechat which has an overlay that allows you to see whos talking in a channel with more than 2 people.
My rainmeter clock skin is also set on always on top so it shows when I run sc2 in fullscreen windowed so I can know what time it is when I'm playing if I say have an appointment and I'm trying to cut it close with a 10 minute match.
Kind of stupid to ban for such harmless stuff. I mean it's not any different from say posting a post-it on your monitor bezel.
You can only use a guest account, your account is entirely banned and sealed. Guest accounts have no achievements, cannot access multiplayer, and do not save.
On July 14 2011 05:16 travis wrote: This seems really really wrong by blizzard there should be a class action suit against them..
My friend called Blizzard again and forwarded them information about Raidcall and they said they'd look into it. That's the best we have unless someone feels like filing a lawsuit against them.
So, if I'm getting the situation correct. Raidcall has been more or less unanimously defined as the culprit of this mass ban, where some accounts have been banned permanently while others were only banned for a couple of days?
On top of that, would it be fair to say that Raidcall is used by a good portion of the WoW community, yet none of these users of the same program have been banned?
Seems like some serious inconsistency to me, and something if enough people were willing to fight for could actually get some results from.
On July 14 2011 05:19 Battleaxe wrote: So, if I'm getting the situation correct. Raidcall has been more or less unanimously defined as the culprit of this mass ban, where some accounts have been banned permanently while others were only banned for a couple of days?
On top of that, would it be fair to say that Raidcall is used by a good portion of the WoW community, yet none of these same users were banned?
Seems like some serious inconsistency to me, and something if enough people were willing to fight for could actually get some results from.
From what I've seen so far, the Account Status reads that your ban is like a 2-3 day ban. However when my friend called them, they said the message would expire in that time, but your account is permanently closed due to hacking. Supposedly the head of department makes the decision on who gets banned for hacking and who doesn't and only he can reverse the decision. That's all I know from the phone call my friend made so far.
As for WoW, I'm not entirely sure because I don't play it. I believe someone made a post earlier about the difference in API and hooks.
On July 14 2011 03:41 R1CH wrote: Have their been instances in other games such as WoW of Blizzard undoing bans? It's pretty obvious this is a false positive, I'd be extremely disappointed if they don't revert all these bans. It seems they whitelisted common DX hooks such as FRAPS, Steam, etc and ignored the less well known programs and classified any unknown modifications as "hacks". This would be like your anti-virus not recognizing a program and then classifying it as a virus based on that fact alone.
this situation has never come up with regards to wow
It sort of has, I guess. There was a WoW Add-on that calculated the damage zone (current or predicted) of AoE effects in raid battles and drew a colored damage field in the 3d space of the game. It trivialized some raid fights like Putricide where it literally became as brainless as "use this add-on and avoid the colored circles." In that case, though, Blizzard just patched the dependency out and effectively disabled the add-on rather than outright banning the users. They're probably a bit touchier in SC2 because there's more direct competition between players.
it was an addon that was well known about for a long time, blizzard gave a long warning that they were going to make it not work. noone was banned for using it because it simply didnt work after the patch. this issue seems to be more fundamental because the programs sidestep sc2 rather than act as addons
On July 14 2011 05:16 travis wrote: This seems really really wrong by blizzard there should be a class action suit against them..
My friend called Blizzard again and forwarded them information about Raidcall and they said they'd look into it. That's the best we have unless someone feels like filing a lawsuit against them.
You won't even be able to actually sue them even if you wanted to.
Quoting the terms of use:
You agree that you will not, under any circumstances use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Service, any Game or any Game experience
Raidcall modifies the game experience (infamous overlay) and isn't authorized (I don't know a single piece of software that is). That said, I doubt it is blizzards intention to permaban people for using voicecomm software, so I'd assume they'll explain it at some point. It's not like they want less people playing SC2.
There doesn't seem to be anything up on the US B.net forums yet tho :/ (except for an excellent discussion on how magic boxing/extractor tricks are glitches and should be removed from the game).
I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
This is the latest response from Customer Support: Following a review of your case, I can confirm that the evidence presented was correct, and that the subsequent action taken was appropriate. Our decision in this matter stands, and will not be overturned.
Please note, it is our policy never to reveal details regarding account investigations, beyond the information given in the original notice mail, for privacy and security reasons.
We now consider this matter closed, and would not look to enter into further communication on the matter.
thanks blizzard, i have never used cheat on sc2 and u just cost me 60 euro cuz i was talking with ppl using raidcall :S
Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game?
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
On July 14 2011 07:00 Energizer wrote: Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game?
Seems the wish has been granted.
I don't think it's what the hackers wanted. While there are almost certainly lots of false positives because of this, their ToS covers this as a 3rd party program, and blind banning of overlays was probably Blizzard's only option to prevent even more rampant drop hacking (amongst other hacks)
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
Are you? Like I said, you CAN sue them, but it's up to you to prove it's unreasonable that they are allowed to ban people for 3rd party programs while playing their game, which is specifically covered in their ToS (You know, the one they update and you agree to every time there's a new patch?), so good luck.
Again, it's all covered very well in the ToS. If you think you have a case, don't argue it to me, go start your case. I'll eagerly await your results.
Is there a way to actually know if these people were banned for using this program and not something else? Is there a chance they could have actually been hacking or breaking TOS in another way because Blizzard seems very adamant that they made the correct decision and Blizzard is pretty smart usually.
On July 14 2011 07:08 Kamikiri wrote: Is there a way to actually know if these people were banned for using this program and not something else? Is there a chance they could have actually been hacking or breaking TOS in another way because Blizzard seems very adamant that they made the correct decision and Blizzard is pretty smart usually.
Three of my friends and myself are banned for using raidcall. We're positive because we've never changed anything except for the additional use of raidcall recently.
However, we're willing to test this and we've asked another friend to message blizzard that he will be running raidcall while playing, and played a few games with it running. If the detection bans him then it is confirmed that raidcall is the reason.
However with the large number of raidcall-users being banned, I'm pretty confident in saying that it is the reason. :|
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
They can revoke your access for whatever reason they want. If they decide to shut down the servers next week then you have no recourse. Just because it seems unfair doesn't mean there's a legal case
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
The program is a hack itself... or a door atleast. Blizzard can't go back on unbanning because then it would be ok to use it and from quote from OP, is a bad thing...
The voice chat overlays (not just raidcall, i remember TS and Ventrillo had similar) are directly hooking into the rendering process and _could_ modify the information you get, like removing objects or changing textures (for example giving cloaked units a clearly visible texture or - depending on how SC2 is programmed - remove the fog). There is no way for SC2 to know what that overlay exactly does, so Blizzard has to assume the worst.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
It boggles my mind that people are so quick to side with Blizzard before we have even heard from them - i.e., Blizzard could easily apologize and unban the accounts, but there is already a swarm of people saying that it serves them right for using voip during a video game.
Even going as far to say that you prefer false positives rather than a ladder full of hackers? Just isn't realistic. There are false positives and still hackers, not just in game but account theft. They insist that they have total control over the one ladder and place you can play online, and now evaluate the quality of that obligatory service... how are you people so loyal to a corporate steamroller?
On July 14 2011 00:22 svefnleysi wrote: While it sucks that people get banned for using stuff like Raidcall, I think Blizzard has to draw the line somewhere.
Something that creates an overlay can be abused, and while it sometimes isn't, having to evaluate each case would make catching people who do abuse it infinitely harder for Blizzard.
I just wish Blizzard would communicate better what is and isn't allowed and then enforce it.
Like the MPQ editing. It's against the TOS but Blizzard doesn't seem to care. I'd prefer it if Blizzard acted on it, because people will keep stretching the limits of what they can and can't do.
I don't see how people are confused as to what is allowed on Battle.net. Blizzard clearly states that ANYTHING that modifies the game is illegal and is bannable. Just because they haven't banned you for something you did does not make it okay.
I just don't understand how people want certain things allowed, but still want hackers banned. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. There will always be false-positives and I'm absolutely okay with it.
yeah you're absolutely ok with it until you get banned for something as silly as this.
My friend got banned for this, only for using a chat program, and that's shit because it's money down the drain. He's not going to buy another copy and now the only friend that I have played with is gone. Good job Blizzard. At least you have people with a complete lack of empathy on your side.
On July 14 2011 07:14 oBlade wrote: It boggles my mind that people are so quick to side with Blizzard before we have even heard from them - i.e., Blizzard could easily apologize and unban the accounts, but there is already a swarm of people saying that it serves them right for using voip during a video game.
Even going as far to say that you prefer false positives rather than a ladder full of hackers? Just isn't realistic. There are false positives and still hackers, not just in game but account theft. They insist that they have total control over the one ladder and place you can play online, and now evaluate the quality of that obligatory service... how are you people so loyal to a corporate steamroller?
"People think it's ok to ban them for using VOIP in a video game" - Horrible Strawman
No one is arguing that. People use ventrillo every day. They got banned for the overlay the program was creating because it's the same thing that hackers use to remain undetected.
The correct argument is one of is it "ok" that a bunch of innocent people got banned because that was the only way to stop the hackers? Personally I believe so, but I didn't get banned for it, so I'm admittedly bias.
If there was a way to differentiate the real hackers from the only voip users, then I would be all for fixing the problem, but I'm assuming that there is not a way to do so based on Bliz's responses.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
Are you? Like I said, you CAN sue them, but it's up to you to prove it's unreasonable that they are allowed to ban people for 3rd party programs while playing their game, which is specifically covered in their ToS (You know, the one they update and you agree to every time there's a new patch?), so good luck.
Again, it's all covered very well in the ToS. If you think you have a case, don't argue it to me, go start your case. I'll eagerly await your results.
The bigger issue here would be finding someone stupid enough to shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees to recover their $50 purchase price for a computer game.
On July 14 2011 06:50 duxx wrote: This is the latest response from Customer Support: Following a review of your case, I can confirm that the evidence presented was correct, and that the subsequent action taken was appropriate. Our decision in this matter stands, and will not be overturned.
Please note, it is our policy never to reveal details regarding account investigations, beyond the information given in the original notice mail, for privacy and security reasons.
We now consider this matter closed, and would not look to enter into further communication on the matter.
thanks blizzard, i have never used cheat on sc2 and u just cost me 60 euro cuz i was talking with ppl using raidcall :S
That is the same thing the Customer Support in Taiwan answered us. Now 40% of people in Taiwan server got banned because of this reason, this is madness!! This is _______!!!!!
On July 14 2011 07:00 Energizer wrote: Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game?
Seems the wish has been granted.
Are you serious?
Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding.
Recent news here from one of my friends who made a ticket today. He isn't being ignored yet like myself and my other friend who opened tickets last night.
Support said that they had to escalate the issue up to the account admins to review his account and review the program.
One more step forward! Phone calls and support tickets to make them recognize that there IS an issue.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
uhh, yeah because you create the product, using blizzards editor, and thereby AGREEING to their EULA before you ever even create something.
On July 14 2011 07:14 oBlade wrote: It boggles my mind that people are so quick to side with Blizzard before we have even heard from them - i.e., Blizzard could easily apologize and unban the accounts, but there is already a swarm of people saying that it serves them right for using voip during a video game.
Even going as far to say that you prefer false positives rather than a ladder full of hackers? Just isn't realistic. There are false positives and still hackers, not just in game but account theft. They insist that they have total control over the one ladder and place you can play online, and now evaluate the quality of that obligatory service... how are you people so loyal to a corporate steamroller?
"People think it's ok to ban them for using VOIP in a video game" - Horrible Strawman
No one is arguing that. People use ventrillo every day. They got banned for the overlay the program was creating because it's the same thing that hackers use to remain undetected.
The correct argument is one of is it "ok" that a bunch of innocent people got banned because that was the only way to stop the hackers? Personally I believe so, but I didn't get banned for it, so I'm admittedly bias.
If there was a way to differentiate the real hackers from the only voip users, then I would be all for fixing the problem, but I'm assuming that there is not a way to do so based on Bliz's responses.
It's not a strawman, it's a rhetorical device to try to get you to behold the absurdity of the situation. And while I appreciate you condescending to explain, I think you understand the technology even worse than I do. It should be obvious you can't use raidcall's overlay "to remain undetected" during maphacking if you immediately get detected and banned for it.
On July 14 2011 07:00 Energizer wrote: Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game?
Seems the wish has been granted.
Are you serious?
Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding.
The R1CH has spoken!
no but seriously, I don't agree to all these bannings, i have had several friends get banned who I reliably believe don't hack/cheat, but probably got caught using a voip overlay. Strange because I use Mumble, and it creates an overlay as well, but it doesn't seem like Mumble users were banned, only Raidcall? So there must be something specific about how Raidcall creates these overlays that is flagging Warden.
Maybe R1CH can find a way to uniquely identify these "hooks" to come from raidcall and not some other 3rd party program, to allow it to be overturned for a large mass of people. The fear though is letting actual hackers slip through the cracks.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program?
On July 14 2011 07:00 Energizer wrote: Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game?
Seems the wish has been granted.
Are you serious?
Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding.
I'm not saying that this particular overlay is cheating or modding. What I am saying is that there were (are) numerous of people who clamor that anyone who goes against the TOS/EULA in any way shape or form deserves to be instant-banned with no warning whatsoever, and it was those same people who say they deserved to lose their $60 over it.
Now here we are with the overlay. Does it at all give you an advantage in any way shape or form in-game? No, and I'm certain that blizzard wouldn't have a problem either if it didn't affect the game itself in a way where it could be manipulated for other mods that are game influencing.
Your anti virus / security software probably violates the TOS/EULA too by injecting and intercepting API calls. Should Blizzard ban for that as well since it's a 3rd party program?
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program?
You can take unconscionable contracts to court in real life, and shrinkwrap licenses aren't handled exactly the same (they probably have a little less force than other contracts but wouldn't go to court as often because they are normally so trivial). You can take EULAs to court too, supposing you have money. This comes up too often to have such misinformation. Edit: On the point of IP, it's a simple analogy. Sibelius and Printmusic don't own the original works of composers just because they wrote them down using that software. Spalding doesn't own your tennis skills. Nikon doesn't own those nude pictures you took in a hotel.
On July 14 2011 07:14 oBlade wrote: It boggles my mind that people are so quick to side with Blizzard before we have even heard from them - i.e., Blizzard could easily apologize and unban the accounts, but there is already a swarm of people saying that it serves them right for using voip during a video game.
Even going as far to say that you prefer false positives rather than a ladder full of hackers? Just isn't realistic. There are false positives and still hackers, not just in game but account theft. They insist that they have total control over the one ladder and place you can play online, and now evaluate the quality of that obligatory service... how are you people so loyal to a corporate steamroller?
"People think it's ok to ban them for using VOIP in a video game" - Horrible Strawman
No one is arguing that. People use ventrillo every day. They got banned for the overlay the program was creating because it's the same thing that hackers use to remain undetected.
The correct argument is one of is it "ok" that a bunch of innocent people got banned because that was the only way to stop the hackers? Personally I believe so, but I didn't get banned for it, so I'm admittedly bias.
If there was a way to differentiate the real hackers from the only voip users, then I would be all for fixing the problem, but I'm assuming that there is not a way to do so based on Bliz's responses.
It's not a strawman, it's a rhetorical device to try to get you to behold the absurdity of the situation. And while I appreciate you condescending to explain, I think you understand the technology even worse than I do. It should be obvious you can't use raidcall's overlay "to remain undetected" during maphacking if you immediately get detected and banned for it.
Your post has a simple answer. They didn't know how to detect those hacks. They were undetectable, and they still are. Clearly, the most probable reason is that since they couldn't differentiate overlays, they banned ALL overlays.
That's why that post is a strawman. It's an argument no one is making or presenting, IE the definition exactly of a strawman.
Please don't presume to know more than me just because I disagreed with you and adequately explained the situation. I understand perfectly how bnet works with respect to server client relationship, in addition to how hacks are undetectable, with an even more additional understanding of how hacks use overlays to remain hidden.
So once again, the argument is, "was there not another way to detect it?" Probably not. And - "did all overlay users have to get banned?"
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program?
Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs.
Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program?
Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs.
Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room.
I don't know what you're trying to argue. It's not an arguable position. You're simply wrong.
This is exactly why they have a ToS, and what it is for. Your governmental rights don't supercede private contracts you agree to. I almost feel like next you're going to say you have a right to free speech on battle.net like the high schooler without any legal knowledge.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program?
Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs.
Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room.
If Crayola made you agree to a ToS that stated that it owns everything created by its crayons, then yes they would own all drawings. You can't argue against a ToS.
On July 14 2011 07:00 Energizer wrote: Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game?
Seems the wish has been granted.
Are you serious?
Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding.
The R1CH has spoken!
no but seriously, I don't agree to all these bannings, i have had several friends get banned who I reliably believe don't hack/cheat, but probably got caught using a voip overlay. Strange because I use Mumble, and it creates an overlay as well, but it doesn't seem like Mumble users were banned, only Raidcall? So there must be something specific about how Raidcall creates these overlays that is flagging Warden.
Maybe R1CH can find a way to uniquely identify these "hooks" to come from raidcall and not some other 3rd party program, to allow it to be overturned for a large mass of people. The fear though is letting actual hackers slip through the cracks.
Well that's the thing, isn't it? It all depends on what SC2 can actually see and whether it's able to identify a particular process that's drawing to the screen. I'm not a programmer so I don't know exactly how DX hooks work, but if all Warden sees is "something is presenting an overlay and it's accessing the network" and that's how it classifies hacks then that's why they're not budging on it. If they're able to distinguish in some way, like "process X with Y memory signature (or some other identifier) is overlaying the screen", then Blizzard tests Raidcall and gets that information and compares it to what's recorded, then they could reverse the bans. It all depends on how much information they actually have to distinguish between a hacker's overlay and something like Raidcall, in my estimation.
Anyways I can tell you "no company can tell me what I agree to" types are getting mad at the truth, so I'll just leave you to your imaginary lawsuits.
I am truely sorry if any of you got incorrectly banned, but in the end it was for the greater good. I hope Bliz can find a way to identify the false positives.
I love all the people wanting to sue blizzard. besides wasting $60 dollars on a game you can no longer play, what are blizzard's damages against you? what are you going to sue for, $60?
On July 14 2011 07:17 iba001 wrote: My friend got banned for this, only for using a chat program, and that's shit because it's money down the drain. He's not going to buy another copy and now the only friend that I have played with is gone. Good job Blizzard. At least you have people with a complete lack of empathy on your side.
It's not «empathy», from what they saw and the information they had it was a plug to the game rendering engine altering what the SC2 window was showing.
As they didn't have any other info, it's quite normal they banned the account.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program?
Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs.
Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room.
If Crayola made you agree to a ToS that stated that it owns everything created by its crayons, then yes they would own all drawings. You can't argue against a ToS.
Lawsuits are filed arguing against a ToS every day. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, and usually they settle.
On July 14 2011 07:28 R1CH wrote: Your anti virus / security software probably violates the TOS/EULA too by injecting and intercepting API calls. Should Blizzard ban for that as well since it's a 3rd party program?
Sure, I mean if people are so willing to fight for other people losing $60 if it means that everyone has a leveled playing field.
I'm not saying that what Blizzard is doing is right on any level. In fact for them to be so readily to ban people that arn't hacking but simply using a voice overlay is what baffles me, hell its ludicrous. But how could anyone not see this kind of situation coming when Blizzard came out and said "We will ban anyone using software that influences the gaming experience".
On July 14 2011 07:08 Kamikiri wrote: Is there a way to actually know if these people were banned for using this program and not something else? Is there a chance they could have actually been hacking or breaking TOS in another way because Blizzard seems very adamant that they made the correct decision and Blizzard is pretty smart usually.
Well Blizzard made Bnet 2.0, so I wouldn't give them too much credit...
I'm actually surprised that people are willing to go with "as long as it protects me from the hackers, the people who are banned deserve it". It's the same kind of slippery slope that gives people false security, while giving more power to corporations and taking away common sense.
It's clear that since not everyone using overlays were banned, Blizzard does have some sort of detection that is preventing them from banning their entire user base. Otherwise, the fact that there are so many people calling should raise a flag in their customer service department. If people remember the realID storm that was raised awhile back, Blizzard does revert changes if enough shit is raised.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program?
Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs.
Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room.
If Crayola made you agree to a ToS that stated that it owns everything created by its crayons, then yes they would own all drawings. You can't argue against a ToS.
Uhhh, what? People do it and win.
Sure, I mean if people are so willing to fight for other people losing $60 if it means that everyone has a leveled playing field.
I'm not saying that what Blizzard is doing is right on any level. In fact for them to be so readily to ban people that arn't hacking but simply using a voice overlay is what baffles me, hell its ludicrous. But how could anyone not see this kind of situation coming when Blizzard came out and said "We will ban anyone using software that influences the gaming experience".
I think my brain is going to pop. Blizzard doesn't have the right to be overzealous idiots about banning people just because they take a hardline, people are essentially giving them a free pass and saying they dont have to do their due diligence in getting it right while their own customers have to tip toe around an unnecessarily hazy line when it comes to this.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program?
Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs.
Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room.
If Crayola made you agree to a ToS that stated that it owns everything created by its crayons, then yes they would own all drawings. You can't argue against a ToS.
the fact that ToS are always adherent contracts, makes them arguable.
On July 14 2011 07:28 R1CH wrote: Your anti virus / security software probably violates the TOS/EULA too by injecting and intercepting API calls. Should Blizzard ban for that as well since it's a 3rd party program?
Sure, I mean if people are so willing to fight for other people losing $60 if it means that everyone has a leveled playing field.
I'm not saying that what Blizzard is doing is right on any level. In fact for them to be so readily to ban people that arn't hacking but simply using a voice overlay is what baffles me, hell its ludicrous. But how could anyone not see this kind of situation coming when Blizzard came out and said "We will ban anyone using software that influences the gaming experience".
You do realize that they are not banning because its an overlay but because of how the program works, correct? They probably dont know its just an overlay or they wouldnt ban these people. They also did not say they will ban anyone using software that influences the gaming experience.
Blizzard banned because the program looked like a hack to them because of the way it works read the other posts they didnt just go its an overlay those evil people /ban. This being said Blizzard will probably unban the people once they realize what happened but you really should not hate on blizzard for doing this, yes it sucks to the people who got banned for this and you will probably get your account back.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
Of course it's legal if you agreed to it. Obviously you haven't had any real jobs, because every contract I've signed has stated that anything I invent or come up while under employment is property of the company I work for. It's a standard clause. And of course they own it, it's entirely contained, editted, and distributed on their servers. How would you have any legal standing to ownership of a map that you created with nothing but their program?
Simple. A government law says blizzard cant. Every man woman and child is entitled to IP rights that they create. Its like saying crayola instantly owns every drawing that was made with their colors and they have it as a TOS behind every package. Everything from the next Leonardo picture to a lousy 3erd grade craft project is theirs.
Now, could your map be copied by blizzard? Sure, unless you copyright it. But to say that blizzard instantly owns anything you make would never hold up in a American court room.
User was warned for this post
Don't post stuff like this. Internet lawyers are not appreciated, and neither is derailing the thread. Keep on topic.
On July 14 2011 05:57 travis wrote: I am no lawyer but I am still pretty sure that yes you can sue them. Maybe some lawyer can come clarify but i'd bet my left nut they could be sued and there would be a strong case against them.
Sure you always "can," but you wouldn't have a case. As mentioned, their ToS protects them from any lawsuits, regardless of the impact of the 3rd party application.
Not to say that obviously innocent people didn't get screwed here, but if Blizzard were to back down now, they would let rampant hackers also go free because everyone would use the "i was just using THAT overlay, not prod/map hack" defense.
Crappy situation that came about because map hack, prod hack, and drop hack became so frequent and impossible to track that the ladder lost all value.
are you a lawyer?
because I doubt blizzard's terms of service protects them when they are unreasonably taking away people's ability to use the product they purchased
their eula's for all their games clearly state that at no point do you own anything and that blizzard has the right to do whatever they want without reason or warning
This is an important legal point. As mentioned, you have licensed the game from Blizzard. They own it, you bought the rights to play it online under their ToS. They have written their ToS in such a way that they can do anything they want at any time and you can do nothing against it except vote with your dollar elsewhere.
Their EULA also says that anything you make (IE A map through blizzard's Editor) Instantly belongs to them because you have no IP rights.
You honestly believe a judge would say that's legal in any way? In fact, you can make a case about any section of Blizzard's EULA. Just because they write it down does not make it law.
uhh, yeah because you create the product, using blizzards editor, and thereby AGREEING to their EULA before you ever even create something.
Yeah this is "similar" with other programs too like 3ds Max (the non business version that is) and basically any other program that has a business and/or home use version. Also the list includes video games (some video game engines are free to use and free to be used for games but for most you need to license the engine to be able to sell it).
Now with those programs, you cannot sell things made using the program unless you get the business or commercial version. Sort of the same thing with Blizzard (except in this case there is no business version [well except map market place coming in HotS but it's still technically Blizzard's map]).
You may say in those cases , people own the stuff they create. That is partially true (if they made assets using 3ds Max for example) but they still cannot sell it (which means that you do not completely own it) because you used 3ds Max to create that asset. Same thing sort of applies with SC2.
Finally it's a way for Blizzard to gain legal freedom with SC2 (it would stink for Blizzard if they got sued because they gave map makers ownership of their own maps).
Honestly I do not think Blizzard is that "evil" of a company (most of the time they're reasonable, especially with community made stuff) for this to be a concern.
I'm fine with Blizzard having ownership of the map because the Galaxy Editor is really good and they continue to update it. Other games you won't get a good modding tool as Galaxy Editor (in other cases, they don't even want you to mod their games and/or there's no easy way to share your mods with others).
[Edit] In terms of Blizzard stealing or using things from maps made by players in their own maps or so - I don't think that's a concern. Now I'm not a Blizzard fanboy (I sided with KeSPA because Blizzard really seemed greedy in that case) but I think it's fine Blizzard wants 100% ownership of the map because the tools and assets Blizzard has provided is all theirs.
What about custom assets? Well that's debateable and depends whether or not the EULA directly states all maps and all things used in the map(key phrase) "or" simply just all maps used using Blizzard's assets (technically the map itself would be an asset that belongs to Blizzard due to using SC2 engine. In this case the "SC2 map" would be owned by Blizzard regardless of whether it contains 100% user created assets but those assets would still belong to the person I "assume").
On July 14 2011 07:00 Energizer wrote: Wait... Weren't people ASKING blizzard to ban people with no warning if they were caught cheating/modding? And could a plugin not be created from this to abuse the game?
Seems the wish has been granted.
Are you serious?
Please explain how a overlay showing you who is talking on a VoIP program is cheating or modding.
The R1CH has spoken!
no but seriously, I don't agree to all these bannings, i have had several friends get banned who I reliably believe don't hack/cheat, but probably got caught using a voip overlay. Strange because I use Mumble, and it creates an overlay as well, but it doesn't seem like Mumble users were banned, only Raidcall? So there must be something specific about how Raidcall creates these overlays that is flagging Warden.
Maybe R1CH can find a way to uniquely identify these "hooks" to come from raidcall and not some other 3rd party program, to allow it to be overturned for a large mass of people. The fear though is letting actual hackers slip through the cracks.
Well that's the thing, isn't it? It all depends on what SC2 can actually see and whether it's able to identify a particular process that's drawing to the screen. I'm not a programmer so I don't know exactly how DX hooks work, but if all Warden sees is "something is presenting an overlay and it's accessing the network" and that's how it classifies hacks then that's why they're not budging on it. If they're able to distinguish in some way, like "process X with Y memory signature (or some other identifier) is overlaying the screen", then Blizzard tests Raidcall and gets that information and compares it to what's recorded, then they could reverse the bans. It all depends on how much information they actually have to distinguish between a hacker's overlay and something like Raidcall, in my estimation.
Generally hacks like maphacks work by merely presenting information that is already present on the client but hidden in view. What I am saying is that maphacks do not need to perform anything over the internet connection as the opponents movements are already inside the running client. All that the hack does is render that information.
So how does it work? Well normally through memory injection but it can still be seen as a running process.
Why can't Blizzard just check your running processes in your memory? Because that is illegal. Blizzard can only check Blizzard process because that is the length of there sovereignty. This was circumvented in WoW awhile back by blizzard. What they would do is if they suspected you were cheating, they would hammer the core that your WoW was running on until it gave up, because when this happens a memory dump occurs and Blizzard can then check the dump for stuff against the terms of use. Now with multicore processors being all the rage, Im sure this process is a little more complicated, they do this when picking up new hacks I believe.
Why ban an overlay? Well, I am pretty sure they do not know exactly what raidcall is capable of or what it exactly looks when running at that low of a level. So Blizzard merely flags and bans a particular family of processes that they see is tampering with anything graphically related to SC2. Raidcall would most certainly fit in that family.
Can someone explain what you can achieve with an overlay as far as external maphack that you can't achieve with a second monitor or by relaying the information over the network to a laptop next to you. I don't have experience using these hacks but I am a graduate student in Computer Science and read the source code to one of the original external maphacks so I understand how they work.
Is their some magic to what they are doing with overlays that makes it so much better than simply displaying the minimap and current production information on a separate screen?
There is a poll being held in Taiwan, because of so many people being banned, Currently 714 people has answered the poll, 281 got banned, 39.36% of total 463 uses RC, 64.85% of total
For those who got banned: 253 are using RC, 90.04% of those being banned
For those who use RC: 253 are banned, 54.64% of those using RC.
On July 14 2011 07:57 meursault wrote: Can someone explain what you can achieve with an overlay as far as external maphack that you can't achieve with a second monitor or by relaying the information over the network to a laptop next to you. I don't have experience using these hacks but I am a graduate student in Computer Science and read the source code to one of the original external maphacks so I understand how they work.
Is their some magic to what they are doing with overlays that makes it so much better than simply displaying the minimap and current production information on a separate screen?
I might be having a hard time completely breaking down your question but, I have a feeling that it is either because dual monitor setups are not very mainstream, or that the hack itself is reliant on the graphical process of the game itself in order to display the information discretely.
Sigh at all the forum heroes who have no idea about software or how Warden works jumping on their little pink ponies to ride to battle (sue -Blizzard- for enforcing the eula you agreed to... sick plan) because they are for some reason under the impression that Warden is actually an AI that can tell that the 3rd party program performing memory injections and scans is actually 'just an overlay from some random company that happens to sponsor Fnatic'. Cause the suits of Fnatic and RaidCall who sign the contracts to boost revenue stream totally check the backend or crosscheck with blizz to ensure it wouldn't be picked up by Warden. Lol.
The focus should be on the developers of RaidCall, not Blizz. Warden is as Warden does, write a better program that doesn't molest it and cause accounts to be flagged.
In general, overlays are going to hook the D3D Present call. This is done by injecting a dll into the SC2 process, setting the loaded d3d dll's memory to writable and modifying it to jump into the code that draws the overlay. This is unfortunately the same set of steps taken by a map hack and makes it hard to distinguish the two. Warden detects the hack or overlay by looking for patches or hooks (see: http://www.woodmann.com/collaborative/tools/index.php/HookShark). This is done by scanning a list of offsets in the process memory to determine if they have been tampered with. Unfortunately since Blizzard was successfully sued a while back, they can only look at the memory of their own process so it is extremely hard/impossible for them to distinguish between a legitmate patch for an overlay and one for a hack.
This seems pretty legit to me, it's pretty clear that blizzard can only see that their rendering is being modified which to them is enough to suspect a hack which is banable under the ToS.
i think the problem is that the average joe uses softwares like raidcall not knowing how it actually works, all they want is just be able to talk to their buddies awhile they play. its something that spread word to mouth, i personally use skype since my friend asked me to get it, but if my friend asked me to get raidcall i wouldn't have hesitated to do so.
then they got banned for trying to talk to their friends while playing.
blizzard has banned hundreds of people for suspicion. if the average joe asks, "what the hell did i do wrong?" blizzard simply answers, "you broke the rule."
is blizzard going to stand by their words(thx for money, bye bye) or will they actually try to help out the innocent people?
seriously, $60 out the door for trying to talk to friends. not sure how much raidcall is related to the fiasco in taiwan but that situation is pretty fucking ridiculous in blizzard's part.
On July 14 2011 08:23 jinorazi wrote: i think the problem is that the average joe uses softwares like raidcall not knowing how it actually works, all they want is just be able to talk to their buddies awhile they play. its something that spread word to mouth, i personally use skype since my friend asked me to get it, but if my friend asked me to get raidcall i wouldn't have hesitated to do so.
then they got banned for trying to talk to their friends while playing.
blizzard has banned hundreds of people for suspicion. if the average joe asks, "what the hell did i do wrong?" blizzard simply answers, "you broke the rule."
is blizzard going to stand by their words(thx for money, bye bye) or will they actually try to help out the innocent people?
seriously, $60 out the door for trying to talk to friends. not sure how much raidcall is related to the fiasco in taiwan but that situation is pretty fucking ridiculous in blizzard's part.
no it's ridiculous on RaidCalls part for not performing reasonable verification on their software before pumping it out to the masses and going to great lengths to advertise / appear to be developing reputable software (see sponsoring a professional esports team). Focus your attention on the correct entity.
Well, this sure sucks for the people invovled. In my opinion Blizzard should at least have stated officially that using this program will result in a banned since there's so many people using it.
On July 14 2011 08:07 cryL wrote: Sigh at all the forum heroes who have no idea about software or how Warden works jumping on their little pink ponies to ride to battle (sue -Blizzard- for enforcing the eula you agreed to... sick plan) because they are for some reason under the impression that Warden is actually an AI that can tell that the 3rd party program performing memory injections and scans is actually 'just an overlay from some random company that happens to sponsor Fnatic'. Cause the suits of Fnatic and RaidCall who sign the contracts to boost revenue stream totally check the backend or crosscheck with blizz to ensure it wouldn't be picked up by Warden. Lol.
The focus should be on the developers of RaidCall, not Blizz. Warden is as Warden does, write a better program that doesn't molest it and cause accounts to be flagged.
You know that if EULA is unquestionably enforced, even if their program steals all the shit from your computer; send them to Russia or KGB or some shit; then turns your computer into a nuclear bomb then blow it up, it will still not be their fault, right?
If Blizzard are banning people who are not using hacks, that's obviously their mistake. RC maybe a fucked up software, but that's also their fault. The only ones who are not at fault right now, are the players who use a CHATTING SOFTWARE. Yet they are the only ones who are being punished.
Because they are the ones without any power in this case.
Seriously, who would know a chatting software would be considered a third party software? If Blizzard fucked up with Warden ( ie. it detects non-hacking software as hacking software), whose fault is that?
If Blizzard choose to go with this, sure they might not get sued, but it's definitely a huge PR disaster.
Well http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/account-status still says I'm banned, but when I login to battle.net's game manager it says I'm active again and I can login and play. Glad they resolved this.. hopefully.
On July 14 2011 08:53 etree wrote: Well http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/account-status still says I'm banned, but when I login to battle.net's game manager it says I'm active again and I can login and play. Glad they resolved this.. hopefully.
Recently, a StarCraft II account under your Battle.net account was actioned for potential violations of our Terms of Use. Upon further review of the action taken upon this account, we reversed the action previously applied.
Reason for Action: Use of 3rd Party Programs Previous Account Action: Closure New Account action: Warning
Please note that while the action has been overturned, we still urge users to be cautious when utilizing any sort of 3rd party program that may interact with StarCraft II. Any modification of the executable or the way it runs is in direct violation of the Battle.net Terms of Use.
In the end, we want Battle.net to be a fun and safe environment for all players. It is to this end that we enforce our Battle.net Terms of Use and In-Game Policies (http://us.blizzard.com/support/article/SC2policies
On July 14 2011 09:15 -Zoda- wrote: Does this mean I could be banned because of Mumble's overlay as well ?
Short answer: yes. I wouldn't count on blizzard modifying Warden to an extent that it differentiates between all (legit) overlays.
Altho it seems like your account would currently only get a warning, I imagine that people that keep using the overlays will accumulate multiple warnings and eventually get a ban. Personally, I'd just undo all MPQ editing and disable all overlays (except for overlays like infranview). Even tho they're perfectly fine to use in terms of effect on gameplay, blizzard apparantly is taking a harder line against any modifications at all.
In WoW multiple warnings gets you banned. I'm guessing they're applying the same policy to SC2 now. Time to learn people's voices ;p.
On July 14 2011 08:07 cryL wrote: Sigh at all the forum heroes who have no idea about software or how Warden works jumping on their little pink ponies to ride to battle (sue -Blizzard- for enforcing the eula you agreed to... sick plan) because they are for some reason under the impression that Warden is actually an AI that can tell that the 3rd party program performing memory injections and scans is actually 'just an overlay from some random company that happens to sponsor Fnatic'. Cause the suits of Fnatic and RaidCall who sign the contracts to boost revenue stream totally check the backend or crosscheck with blizz to ensure it wouldn't be picked up by Warden. Lol.
The focus should be on the developers of RaidCall, not Blizz. Warden is as Warden does, write a better program that doesn't molest it and cause accounts to be flagged.
You know that if EULA is unquestionably enforced, even if their program steals all the shit from your computer; send them to Russia or KGB or some shit; then turns your computer into a nuclear bomb then blow it up, it will still not be their fault, right?
If Blizzard are banning people who are not using hacks, that's obviously their mistake. RC maybe a fucked up software, but that's also their fault. The only ones who are not at fault right now, are the players who use a CHATTING SOFTWARE. Yet they are the only ones who are being punished.
Because they are the ones without any power in this case.
Seriously, who would know a chatting software would be considered a third party software? If Blizzard fucked up with Warden ( ie. it detects non-hacking software as hacking software), whose fault is that?
If Blizzard choose to go with this, sure they might not get sued, but it's definitely a huge PR disaster.
It doesn't state hacking software, it says 3rd party software. They are banning people using 3rd party software that alters and scans memory addresses within the game. It's not their mistake, Warden is working as intended for their part. It's the mistake of the people who created the 3rd party software, and those who chose to use it blindly. Any action taken to rectify the situation is simply Blizzard being well mannered and helpful, not doing 'what they had to do cause this is totally their fault'.
On July 14 2011 08:23 jinorazi wrote: i think the problem is that the average joe uses softwares like raidcall not knowing how it actually works, all they want is just be able to talk to their buddies awhile they play. its something that spread word to mouth, i personally use skype since my friend asked me to get it, but if my friend asked me to get raidcall i wouldn't have hesitated to do so.
then they got banned for trying to talk to their friends while playing.
blizzard has banned hundreds of people for suspicion. if the average joe asks, "what the hell did i do wrong?" blizzard simply answers, "you broke the rule."
is blizzard going to stand by their words(thx for money, bye bye) or will they actually try to help out the innocent people?
seriously, $60 out the door for trying to talk to friends. not sure how much raidcall is related to the fiasco in taiwan but that situation is pretty fucking ridiculous in blizzard's part.
no it's ridiculous on RaidCalls part for not performing reasonable verification on their software before pumping it out to the masses and going to great lengths to advertise / appear to be developing reputable software (see sponsoring a professional esports team). Focus your attention on the correct entity.
Not sure if you read all of the relevant arguments here.
Blizzard's devices are flagging harmless pieces of software as cheating mechanisms. They're not whitelisting RaidCall properly, as they clearly don't have issues with other overlay programs (FRAPS/Steam, etc.). Thus, there's something wrong on their end.
On July 14 2011 04:01 R1CH wrote: Steam, FRAPS and DXTory all use page flip hooking to draw overlays exactly like Raidcall does. There are differences in the implementation but the concepts are the same.
On July 14 2011 07:28 R1CH wrote: Your anti virus / security software probably violates the TOS/EULA too by injecting and intercepting API calls. Should Blizzard ban for that as well since it's a 3rd party program?
On July 14 2011 07:57 meursault wrote: Can someone explain what you can achieve with an overlay as far as external maphack that you can't achieve with a second monitor or by relaying the information over the network to a laptop next to you. I don't have experience using these hacks but I am a graduate student in Computer Science and read the source code to one of the original external maphacks so I understand how they work.
Is their some magic to what they are doing with overlays that makes it so much better than simply displaying the minimap and current production information on a separate screen?
R1CH can probably answer this but my non-programer brain tells me that this action from Blizzard seems very stupid to put it nicely. The line of thinking appears to be something like this: 1) People use hacks on sc2. 2)These hacks display something on the screen like almost every consumer software out there. 3)One of these hacks(or some) use these kinds of DX hooks or whatever they are called, probably exactly like most programs do that are able to show things on the screen when people play games in full screen mode. 4)Ban accounts where the computers the accounts were used on had software that used this technique.
There are probably millions of different software on peoples starcraft 2 computers around the world, just buying a computer from for example HP probably equals to like 50 already installed. Banning accounts because peoples computers have to Blizzard unknown software on them will most likely never work unless people start using special computers that they only use for starcraft and absolutely nothing else.
Not only does banning because of these DX hooks or whatever seem stupid, it shouldn't have any effect what so ever on the so called "hackers" since, as far as I can understand, these hack programs don't need to use these techniques more than normal programs.
But again, I'm not a programer so if I'm wrong someone like R1CH will hopefully correct me.
Stupid, justified, good, whatever... It will come down to image.
The image a company will get for banning people for using chat software X that does not offer them any kind of help in the game is going to be a negative one. When we are talking about the numbers that it seems like (over 33% of TW server lol?) I will place money on this being 'fixed' in some fashion.
This is business. A tough warden is good for business until it causes something like this.
Companies do things that enable them to make money, they are tools to that purpose and that purpose alone. Just ask yourself what makes sense with that in mind and it will be clear what the outcome of this will be.
My account was banned as well for using third party programs. I have never hacked and did not use RaidCall. My ban was also downgraded to a warning, but I already paid $60 for a new license. Hopefully they'll give me a refund and restore my old Starcraft II character and its portraits, achievements, etc.
On July 14 2011 10:53 StarDrive wrote: My account was banned as well for using third party programs. I have never hacked and did not use RaidCall. My ban was also downgraded to a warning, but I already paid $60 for a new license. Hopefully they'll give me a refund and restore my old Starcraft II character and its portraits, achievements, etc.
wait a sec. bliz ban your account for no reason and the first thing you do is sending them 60$? omg thats wired. if bliz del my account for nothing i would never buy any of there products again in my life...
On July 14 2011 07:57 meursault wrote: Can someone explain what you can achieve with an overlay as far as external maphack that you can't achieve with a second monitor or by relaying the information over the network to a laptop next to you. I don't have experience using these hacks but I am a graduate student in Computer Science and read the source code to one of the original external maphacks so I understand how they work.
Is their some magic to what they are doing with overlays that makes it so much better than simply displaying the minimap and current production information on a separate screen?
R1CH can probably answer this but my non-programer brain tells me that this action from Blizzard seems very stupid to put it nicely. The line of thinking appears to be something like this: 1) People use hacks on sc2. 2)These hacks display something on the screen like almost every consumer software out there. 3)One of these hacks(or some) use these kinds of DX hooks or whatever they are called, probably exactly like most programs do that are able to show things on the screen when people play games in full screen mode. 4)Ban accounts where the computers the accounts were used on had software that used this technique.
There are probably millions of different software on peoples starcraft 2 computers around the world, just buying a computer from for example HP probably equals to like 50 already installed. Banning accounts because peoples computers have to Blizzard unknown software on them will most likely never work unless people start using special computers that they only use for starcraft and absolutely nothing else.
Not only does banning because of these DX hooks or whatever seem stupid, it shouldn't have any effect what so ever on the so called "hackers" since, as far as I can understand, these hack programs don't need to use these techniques more than normal programs.
But again, I'm not a programer so if I'm wrong someone like R1CH will hopefully correct me.
I'm probably not comparable with R1CH, but in short:
This DX Hooks are put directly between SC2 and the Graphics Card, they have full access to the rendering of SC2. They are not limited to drawing something on the screen, they could go far deeper and do basically anything, from replacing textures and making cloaked units easily visible to (maybe, depends on SC2 programming) removing the fog or drawing other information into the world (for example actions your opponent performs that the hooked program intercepts from the network traffic).
SC2 can not know what the Hook does, it could be as harmless as Raidcall or as bad as a maphack. They very probably keep a whitelist of programs that are known to be Ok, like the often mentioned Steam and Fraps. Raidcall was not in the whitelist, so Blizzard/Warden had to assume it's something evil since Raidcall put itself between SC2 and the Graphics Card and did who-knows-what. I also assume that SC2 does not transfer personal information like the list of running processes, so they don't know what exactly the hook is.
Would you rather have a few people banned and later unbanned or hackers that roam free because "they might not have done something wrong"? It is not possible for blizzard to use a blacklist, as that would miss every new maphack that would appear. A whitelist is a sensible choice and while it's sad that it hit a few innocent people, i'm sure those accounts will be restored. They just can't know about every program that plugs into the DirectX API.
On July 14 2011 10:35 vaderseven wrote: Stupid, justified, good, whatever... It will come down to image.
The image a company will get for banning people for using chat software X that does not offer them any kind of help in the game is going to be a negative one. When we are talking about the numbers that it seems like (over 33% of TW server lol?) I will place money on this being 'fixed' in some fashion.
I haven't read the TW thread since yesterday, but wasn't TW something totally different?
EDIT: Ok, checked the TW thread again. 253 people used Raidcall of 281 banned, so it looks probable that it's related. Still, 281 banned accounts are 0.2% of the TW Server, not 33%. Just because it's 33% of the poll doesn't mean it's 33% of the server unless every single person on that server voted in the poll.
Would you rather have a few people banned and later unbanned or hackers that roam free because "they might not have done something wrong"?
yes its better to have one guilty person free than one not guilty person in jail ^^ thats common thinking in democratic states.
It is not possible for blizzard to use a blacklist, as that would miss every new maphack that would appear.
They are not able to detect every new maphack anyway. On common operations you have to use blacklist. Think about what would happen if a antivirus softoware use white not blacklist.
A whitelist is a sensible choice and while it's sad that it hit a few innocent people, i'm sure those accounts will be restored.
we are not talking about few people here
They just can't know about every program that plugs into the DirectX API.
thats why no one in this market expect them would even think about a white list
PS: sorry for double post i messed up the quote in quote thing hard
Would you rather have a few people banned and later unbanned or hackers that roam free because "they might not have done something wrong"? It is not possible for blizzard to use a blacklist, as that would miss every new maphack that would appear. A whitelist is a sensible choice and while it's sad that it hit a few innocent people, i'm sure those accounts will be restored. They just can't know about every program that plugs into the DirectX API.
1) They are not able to detect every new maphack anyway.
2)On common operations you have to use blacklist. Think about what would happen if a antivirus softoware use white not blacklist.
3) And yes its better to have one guilty person free than one not guilty person in jail ^^ thats common thinking in democratic states.
1) They can detect every maphack that uses a DX Hook
2) Unlike AntiVir programs and file operations, there are only very few reasons for any program to use DX Hooks, so for AntiVir programs 99% of the cases are ok, for DX Hooks in SC2, 99% of the cases are not. This is why in AntiVir programs, blacklists are ok while for SC2 and DX Hooks, whitelists are the correct choice.
Example: You know you only recieve E-Mails from 5 persons/websites/companies, but you get a few hundred spam emails a day. Would you rather whitelist the 5 persons and have everything else land in a "spam" folder or blacklist every single mail address that does not belong to those 5 entities?
3) Having a banned account is not comparable with being in prison.
1) They can detect every maphack that uses a DX Hook
2) Unlike AntiVir programs and file operations, there are only very few reasons for any program to use DX Hooks, so for AntiVir programs 99% of the cases are ok, for DX Hooks in SC2, 99% of the cases are not. This is why in AntiVir programs, blacklists are ok while for SC2 and DX Hooks, whitelists are the correct choice.
Example: You know you only recieve E-Mails from 5 persons/websites/companies, but you get a few hundred spam emails a day. Would you rather whitelist the 5 persons and have everything else land in a "spam" folder or blacklist every single mail address that does not belong to those 5 entities?
3) Having a banned account is not comparable with being in prison.
1) they can detect every Program that use a dx hook you mean...
2) there are many program who use this. like video players.
example: I will never get a new costumer in my life because he get blocked. Looks like a very bad idea to use a whitelist. i never heard of a email whitelist in my life and in working in this businesses.
3) yes but in both cases: innocent until they proof your guilty
### What happens if you miss a cheater with your detection: you have 1 cheater more. What happens if you ban a nocheater: i loose 1 costumer forever... BUT: what happens if you ban a noncheating nerd: you get 60$ bliz have a financial interest in banning innocent guys. I dont think they work with this, but the setup is scary.
PS: sorry for the mass edit so you replay to older version. i should think longer before i click post ^^
1) They can detect every maphack that uses a DX Hook
2) Unlike AntiVir programs and file operations, there are only very few reasons for any program to use DX Hooks, so for AntiVir programs 99% of the cases are ok, for DX Hooks in SC2, 99% of the cases are not. This is why in AntiVir programs, blacklists are ok while for SC2 and DX Hooks, whitelists are the correct choice.
Example: You know you only recieve E-Mails from 5 persons/websites/companies, but you get a few hundred spam emails a day. Would you rather whitelist the 5 persons and have everything else land in a "spam" folder or blacklist every single mail address that does not belong to those 5 entities?
3) Having a banned account is not comparable with being in prison.
1) they can detect every Program that use a dx hook you mean...
2) there are many program who use this. like video players.
example: I will never get a new costumer in my life because he get blocked. Looks like a very bad idea to use a whitelist. i never heard of a email whitelist in my life and in working in this businesses.
You seem to not have understood what DX Hooks are. No Videoplayer uses DX Hooks. Not a single one. They sometimes use DirectX Rendering, but thats (almost) completely unrelated. They don't change the output of other applications.
There are about a dozen programs that use DX Hooks for valid reasons, all others are usually maphacks, wallhacks and other such programs.
1) They can detect every maphack that uses a DX Hook
2) Unlike AntiVir programs and file operations, there are only very few reasons for any program to use DX Hooks, so for AntiVir programs 99% of the cases are ok, for DX Hooks in SC2, 99% of the cases are not. This is why in AntiVir programs, blacklists are ok while for SC2 and DX Hooks, whitelists are the correct choice.
Example: You know you only recieve E-Mails from 5 persons/websites/companies, but you get a few hundred spam emails a day. Would you rather whitelist the 5 persons and have everything else land in a "spam" folder or blacklist every single mail address that does not belong to those 5 entities?
3) Having a banned account is not comparable with being in prison.
1) they can detect every Program that use a dx hook you mean...
2) there are many program who use this. like video players.
example: I will never get a new costumer in my life because he get blocked. Looks like a very bad idea to use a whitelist. i never heard of a email whitelist in my life and in working in this businesses.
You seem to not have understood what DX Hooks are. No Videoplayer uses DX Hooks. Not a single one. They sometimes use DirectX Rendering, but thats (almost) completely unrelated. They don't change the output of other applications.
There are about a dozen programs that use DX Hooks for valid reasons, all others are usually maphacks, wallhacks and other such programs.
Checked it, informed myself. Your right! I should do more research in the frist run.
Still i think a whitelist is to strong because a false positive is just to bad in any scan-procedure.
1) They can detect every maphack that uses a DX Hook
2) Unlike AntiVir programs and file operations, there are only very few reasons for any program to use DX Hooks, so for AntiVir programs 99% of the cases are ok, for DX Hooks in SC2, 99% of the cases are not. This is why in AntiVir programs, blacklists are ok while for SC2 and DX Hooks, whitelists are the correct choice.
Example: You know you only recieve E-Mails from 5 persons/websites/companies, but you get a few hundred spam emails a day. Would you rather whitelist the 5 persons and have everything else land in a "spam" folder or blacklist every single mail address that does not belong to those 5 entities?
3) Having a banned account is not comparable with being in prison.
1) they can detect every Program that use a dx hook you mean...
2) there are many program who use this. like video players.
example: I will never get a new costumer in my life because he get blocked. Looks like a very bad idea to use a whitelist. i never heard of a email whitelist in my life and in working in this businesses.
You seem to not have understood what DX Hooks are. No Videoplayer uses DX Hooks. Not a single one. They sometimes use DirectX Rendering, but thats (almost) completely unrelated. They don't change the output of other applications.
There are about a dozen programs that use DX Hooks for valid reasons, all others are usually maphacks, wallhacks and other such programs.
Checked it, informed myself. Your right! I should do more research in the frist run.
Still i think a whitelist is to strong because a false positive is just to bad in any scan-procedure.
+rep
You are the first person ever on the internet to change their opinion. CONGRATULATIONS Humanity is evolving! Have many many children for evolution sake please.
1) They can detect every maphack that uses a DX Hook
2) Unlike AntiVir programs and file operations, there are only very few reasons for any program to use DX Hooks, so for AntiVir programs 99% of the cases are ok, for DX Hooks in SC2, 99% of the cases are not. This is why in AntiVir programs, blacklists are ok while for SC2 and DX Hooks, whitelists are the correct choice.
Example: You know you only recieve E-Mails from 5 persons/websites/companies, but you get a few hundred spam emails a day. Would you rather whitelist the 5 persons and have everything else land in a "spam" folder or blacklist every single mail address that does not belong to those 5 entities?
3) Having a banned account is not comparable with being in prison.
1) they can detect every Program that use a dx hook you mean...
2) there are many program who use this. like video players.
example: I will never get a new costumer in my life because he get blocked. Looks like a very bad idea to use a whitelist. i never heard of a email whitelist in my life and in working in this businesses.
You seem to not have understood what DX Hooks are. No Videoplayer uses DX Hooks. Not a single one. They sometimes use DirectX Rendering, but thats (almost) completely unrelated. They don't change the output of other applications.
There are about a dozen programs that use DX Hooks for valid reasons, all others are usually maphacks, wallhacks and other such programs.
Checked it, informed myself. Your right! I should do more research in the frist run.
Still i think a whitelist is to strong because a false positive is just to bad in any scan-procedure.
I'm suprised, i found someone who admitted to being wrong.... on the internet
It is strong and we could argue forever about wether it is too strong or not. I'm siding with blizzard in this case, but, well, if he works long enough, every programmer turns into a paranoid who thinks everyone is evil (My usual phrase is "If you write an application for any number of people, from one user - including yourself - to a billion users, there is always at least one person with malicious intentions"). I can understand that your opinion is different and won't argue more about it.
Blizzard made a business decision which - while maybe too strong - was not completely unreasonable (though maybe not completely reasonable either) and wether it was the correct decision or not, those users are still banned. I just hope Blizzard unbans them before the accounts get deleted.
They will probably change the policies in the future, though i fear they might start transfering the process list for those using programs with DX Hooks - which would be a big privacy concern.
On July 14 2011 07:17 iba001 wrote: My friend got banned for this, only for using a chat program, and that's shit because it's money down the drain. He's not going to buy another copy and now the only friend that I have played with is gone. Good job Blizzard. At least you have people with a complete lack of empathy on your side.
It's not «empathy», from what they saw and the information they had it was a plug to the game rendering engine altering what the SC2 window was showing.
As they didn't have any other info, it's quite normal they banned the account.
Let's just hope they'll unban them ASAP.
i wasnt referring to blizz, i was referring to the people who instantly went to their defence with "I'm ok with it" comments. I actually quoted one of those too but you seem to have deleted it?
anyhow, it doesnt matter anymore, blizz saw the error of their ways and my friend got sent a retraction email after contacting them.
This should teach those who instantly defended blizz to take a breath and think about the situation, not everything blizz does is the right thing, they themselves acknowledged it. I love blizz and the games they make, but please try to think for yourselves people.
On July 14 2011 07:17 iba001 wrote: My friend got banned for this, only for using a chat program, and that's shit because it's money down the drain. He's not going to buy another copy and now the only friend that I have played with is gone. Good job Blizzard. At least you have people with a complete lack of empathy on your side.
It's not «empathy», from what they saw and the information they had it was a plug to the game rendering engine altering what the SC2 window was showing.
As they didn't have any other info, it's quite normal they banned the account.
Let's just hope they'll unban them ASAP.
i wasnt referring to blizz, i was referring to the people who instantly went to their defence with "I'm ok with it" comments. I actually quoted one of those too but you seem to have deleted it?
anyhow, it doesnt matter anymore, blizz saw the error of their ways and my friend got sent a retraction email after contacting them.
This should teach those who instantly defended blizz to take a breath and think about the situation, not everything blizz does is the right thing, they themselves acknowledged it. I love blizz and the games they make, but please try to think for yourselves people.
How exactly did they do the wrong thing? Banning and then unbanning is the right thing to do as Blizzard knows they're the only ones that clean up the mess that this program creator did. It is up to the program creator to inform Blizzard of their programme and warn the users that their programme has not been cleared by Blizzard yet. You can't hijack SC2 and expect Blizzard to be ok with it. I'm not a Blizzard fanboy but I am a programmer. From a security perspective, I have to agree with Blizzard's approach. If I'm a maphacker right now, I'll probably try to figure out ways to hack into SC2 and pretend to be this friendly program. If a new harmless program that has this same behavior comes out, Blizzard will do this all over again.
1) They can detect every maphack that uses a DX Hook
2) Unlike AntiVir programs and file operations, there are only very few reasons for any program to use DX Hooks, so for AntiVir programs 99% of the cases are ok, for DX Hooks in SC2, 99% of the cases are not. This is why in AntiVir programs, blacklists are ok while for SC2 and DX Hooks, whitelists are the correct choice.
Example: You know you only recieve E-Mails from 5 persons/websites/companies, but you get a few hundred spam emails a day. Would you rather whitelist the 5 persons and have everything else land in a "spam" folder or blacklist every single mail address that does not belong to those 5 entities?
3) Having a banned account is not comparable with being in prison.
1) they can detect every Program that use a dx hook you mean...
2) there are many program who use this. like video players.
example: I will never get a new costumer in my life because he get blocked. Looks like a very bad idea to use a whitelist. i never heard of a email whitelist in my life and in working in this businesses.
You seem to not have understood what DX Hooks are. No Videoplayer uses DX Hooks. Not a single one. They sometimes use DirectX Rendering, but thats (almost) completely unrelated. They don't change the output of other applications.
There are about a dozen programs that use DX Hooks for valid reasons, all others are usually maphacks, wallhacks and other such programs.
Checked it, informed myself. Your right! I should do more research in the frist run.
Still i think a whitelist is to strong because a false positive is just to bad in any scan-procedure.
I'm suprised, i found someone who admitted to being wrong.... on the internet
It is strong and we could argue forever about wether it is too strong or not. I'm siding with blizzard in this case, but, well, if he works long enough, every programmer turns into a paranoid who thinks everyone is evil (My usual phrase is "If you write an application for any number of people, from one user - including yourself - to a billion users, there is always at least one person with malicious intentions"). I can understand that your opinion is different and won't argue more about it.
Blizzard made a business decision which - while maybe too strong - was not completely unreasonable (though maybe not completely reasonable either) and wether it was the correct decision or not, those users are still banned. I just hope Blizzard unbans them before the accounts get deleted.
They will probably change the policies in the future, though i fear they might start transfering the process list for those using programs with DX Hooks - which would be a big privacy concern.
Publicity wise, transferring the process list would be a lot worse. That is so intrusive. They have to do more than just check the name of the process. They have to verify the dlls that are loaded are genuine. I'm not sure that's even legal.
After having to read this thread just to get my head around why raidcall users were banned and unbanned I have to ask, why did they need to use a direct x hook, or whatever strange method that flagged it as a a possible hack just to display an overlay?
How different is it to just have an application pop up on top of SC2? Did they need to do it the way they did for some fancy looking transparency or shading out when you bring up the program like steam does (how the background fades out but you can still make out what the game is doing).
I'm asking mainly in relation to my overlay macro thread, but also to get my head around why software like this turns out the way it does..
On July 15 2011 14:04 zergrushkekeke wrote: After having to read this thread just to get my head around why raidcall users were banned and unbanned I have to ask, why did they need to use a direct x hook, or whatever strange method that flagged it as a a possible hack just to display an overlay?
How different is it to just have an application pop up on top of SC2? Did they need to do it the way they did for some fancy looking transparency or shading out when you bring up the program like steam does (how the background fades out but you can still make out what the game is doing).
I'm asking mainly in relation to my overlay macro thread, but also to get my head around why software like this turns out the way it does..
Well we meet again ^_^ By using DX you can display something even in "fullscreen" (not "windowed fullscreen") mode. This graphic mode is default and faster than "windowed". So most of users prefer "fullscreen". I believe that Raidcall do this because many games use just DirectX fullscreen. It's not for SC2 only. But only SC2 has got ban for this.
On July 15 2011 14:04 zergrushkekeke wrote: After having to read this thread just to get my head around why raidcall users were banned and unbanned I have to ask, why did they need to use a direct x hook, or whatever strange method that flagged it as a a possible hack just to display an overlay?
How different is it to just have an application pop up on top of SC2? Did they need to do it the way they did for some fancy looking transparency or shading out when you bring up the program like steam does (how the background fades out but you can still make out what the game is doing).
I'm asking mainly in relation to my overlay macro thread, but also to get my head around why software like this turns out the way it does..
It isn't a strange method is the issue. Steam, Mumble, Ventrilo, Teamspeak, and FRAPS all do it.
On July 15 2011 14:04 zergrushkekeke wrote: After having to read this thread just to get my head around why raidcall users were banned and unbanned I have to ask, why did they need to use a direct x hook, or whatever strange method that flagged it as a a possible hack just to display an overlay?
How different is it to just have an application pop up on top of SC2? Did they need to do it the way they did for some fancy looking transparency or shading out when you bring up the program like steam does (how the background fades out but you can still make out what the game is doing).
I'm asking mainly in relation to my overlay macro thread, but also to get my head around why software like this turns out the way it does..
Not 100% positive this is the case, but overlays like irfan can be clicked and obstruct the playing field when they are always on top, meanwhile the direct x hooked overlays can be clicked through so that it doesnt interfere with play. I have never used raidcall, but this is likely the case.
You are definitely right about how irfanview will capture clicks. That's why in my macro helper I need to try and pop the images up where a player doesn't usually click, and that also makes sense that they would want to do it that way, also something I didn't consider is they most likely didn't tailor raidcall to sc2, but just have a generic way to deal with all games that unfortunately got picked up by the warden.
For everyone that keeps saying that the people who were using RaidCalls overlay were somehow breaking BIlzzs ToS., you are wrong....
The ToS states that you can not "...use cheats, automation software (bots), hacks, mods or any other unauthorized third-party software designed to modify the Service, any Game or any Game experience;"
RaidCall was not designed to (though it might) modify the service or any game experience. thus no one is breaking the ToS.
EDIT key words are designed to. RaidCall was designed to allow users to communicate vocally over the internet. not hack SC2.
Well it does unintentionally modify the game (somehow) and that's how it was detected by their system. If it didn't affect the game in some way it wouldn't have been picked up.
I agree with you completely Kurosuke that the way you put is the way it should work, but the way the argument went down in the other thread was practically anything can modify the game experience, so any software that makes noise, or pops up on your screen can suffer the ban hammer. Some program that can be sniffed out by warden interacting with the game, that blizzard don't whitelist can then be used as ground to ban the player, then only when hundreds or thousands of customers complain will they un ban them.
well then in that case zergrushkekeke i think blizz should just be more transparent with what is/not okay. Technically, you and your partner talking about strategy in in-game chat or over voice com changes the "in game experience". or you talking to your opponent at the start of the game may chang the game experience for one of you....
Blizz should come out and publish a list of programs that they DO allow to run at the same time as SC2 (like Any AVs that may set off trigger, or streaming programs, or Voip programs that they support and features they DONT support)
like srsly, who would think that a feature in their perfectly legit Voip software would violate the ToS and get them banned without said company explicitly saying that overlays on some voice chat programs could cause you to get banned.
why couldnt they simply have that message? since its not just RC that has they DX/OGL Overlay.
EPT
