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On May 25 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch. I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me. Watch your language young man, this thread is rated PG. I'm reading it with my 8-year old kid and had to close this thread really fast when I saw this nasty word in that post of yours.
Luckily, the wife didn't see it...
Good natured sarcasm aside, I wouldn't worry about a couple curse words like fuck or similar in a commentary about a game that's rated 12+. But being European, I do have less problems with cursing and the depiction and discussion of sex than most US people do, so I dunno if that's what the OP wants to hear.
The way to "mainstream acceptance" is not reaching out to children under 10 by neutering and censoring our commentaries.
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On May 25 2011 02:04 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch. I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me. She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football.
If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
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Seems to depend on the event being casted. The GSL is the most professional out of all of them since they are produced straight out of a television company, Artosis and Tasteless, along with Moletrap and now Wolf, seem to keep it pretty tame, while casts that are more tied to an internet stream or website tend to have more liberal use of language as it is taking place in a more relaxed and less professional setting. It seems as though GSL events and LAN events such as MLG and ESL etc are your best bet because they are under the jurisdiction of an overarching corporation or organization.
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Don't try to switch the subject.
You're still trying to justify letting your kids watch a T rated game, which they shouldn't.
The casters might become more careful with their language in the future, if it's going to be needed for it to look more professional, but you still shouldn't let your kids watch it, because it's a T rated game!
You've got parental controls on everything for gods sake. It was probably USA in the first place, that made sure of this, but you don't even use it and blame others, instead of taking the blame.
If your kids like to hang out, when you play, then play something else. Or you're telling me, that if they see you watch Dexter or Spartacus, you keep watching, because you like to hang out with them?
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For the record, my 12 yo plays SC2 but I don't let him play the campaign because of the language and some other content. He doesn't like it but he lives with it. My 8 yo watches him play custom games and such. And my wife and I still debate whether this is OK between ourselves.
As for the argument that they're going to hear this anyway so anything goes, just because something might happen doesn't mean I want it in my house on a constant basis. The more we hear things the more we internalize it and desensitize to it. Take the example of the word "rape". The more we hear it the more it desensitizes us to the horror of the reality of the word.
If I think something is bad for my children, I try to protect them from it till I feel they are ready to deal with it on their own. This is very personal and different for each family and individual child which is why I didn't call for any kind of regulation or mandates, just some consideration and perhaps information.
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For sure this is an interesting cultural issue.
In America, the Federal Communication Commission (FCC) has broad jurisdiction over the standards on broadcast media (i.e. "free-air" TV and radio). The basic standard can be summed-up by the George Carlin monologue "Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television".
Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words
Also, American TV has lots and lots of violence. However, American TV will not allow nudity in any form. Again, big cultural issue here, as it is my understanding that Europe is the opposite in this regard.
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Power to the OP for coming on here.
And someone should ban the idiot that suggested the OP simply stop watching the game with his children. That's really going to help things move forward, hey?
This shouldn't be hard to resolve - get a few heads together and just agree to have some form of self-induced rating advertised along with the broadcast (you are viewing a PG, MA+15 broadcast or whatever).
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Well some casters do tend to make sex jokes, but i doubt anyone who isnt at least 13 understands it.
I dont know of any caster who says fuck a lot. Actually i dont think i've ever heard it from any live caster. If someone could tell me who does that then go ahead. Maybe in player interviews? But it seems like such a small problem. I would let almost anyone watch NASL, MLG or GSL.
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On May 25 2011 02:11 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:04 Joedaddy wrote:On May 25 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch. I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me. She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football. If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
She's just trying to spend time with her father and he's trying to share with her something he enjoys. Why should that get disrupted and why should his parental goals be undermined because the casters are feeling antisocial?
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On May 25 2011 02:14 warsinger wrote:
For the record, my 12 yo plays SC2 but I don't let him play the campaign because of the language and some other content. He doesn't like it but he lives with it. My 8 yo watches him play custom games and such. And my wife and I still debate whether this is OK between ourselves.
As for the argument that they're going to hear this anyway so anything goes, just because something might happen doesn't mean I want it in my house on a constant basis. The more we hear things the more we internalize it and desensitize to it. Take the example of the word "rape". The more we hear it the more it desensitizes us to the horror of the reality of the word.
If I think something is bad for my children, I try to protect them from it till I feel they are ready to deal with it on their own. This is very personal and different for each family and individual child which is why I didn't call for any kind of regulation or mandates, just some consideration and perhaps information.
I'm totally with you on the swearing, unfortunately gamers have long used "rape" to describe being absolutely ripped apart by your opponent, it has a completely different meaning to how it is used outside of gaming and is a hard word to get people to stop using, long time gamers use it without thinking about it, its not considered swearing or inappropriate to use for most of us. If we can remove it from casts, then all the better, but it would be very hard simply because its one of those words that gamers use.
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I don't believe you can claim a T-rating of a game means a similar 12+ rating for viewing it (ESRB rating). That rating takes into account things like language, suggestive themes, and drugs which are not involved in multiplayer viewing And it also takes into account that you are the one doing the actions. I almost certainly believe that if SC2 were broadcasted on television, it would be a PG rating, not TV-14.
Also, claiming that it is insignificant to you for someone to say the F word, or to make sexual jokes in front of a child, is not relevant. You can make all the claims you want about how his culture is wrong, or his societal values are out of date, but that does not change them. These things are wrong to him, and your two line post isn't going to change his world.
The OP also points to tournaments almost exclusively casted by Americans (TSL being the only exception I believe). And aside from the GSL, they are produced within the U.S. (TSL being a slight exception again). I don't think it is very unreasonable for him to ask for American produced casting to meet American standards for children. Now if he were to start claiming the ESL swears to much in their casts, that would be another story.
If these things like MLG and NASL are going to try to continue to grow in the U.S., they're going to have to start having either stricter standards, or at least describing the content beforehand with a rating system.
At the very least, I think you have to accept the OP's request for tournaments to say what kind of content will be involved in the casting. Not necessarily censor it.
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I agree with you the bigger productions like GSL, MLG and TSL should perhaps watch their language a bit. Just because of the variety of possible viewers.
"smaller" productions like day9, sotg, into the game should have the freedom to do what they want.
This said, people also shouldnt freak out if they hear 1 bad word. Wheat starting TSL with "wazzzzzupppp bitches" is just him being him, and i thought that was absolutely fine. Kids of 12 hear far worse things hanging around with their friends on the playground nowadays.
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While I agree that casters should really try and keep things professional. I still don't understand why people shelter their kids from words they have very likely heard already.
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Germany442 Posts
On May 25 2011 02:09 Bobster wrote:
The way to "mainstream acceptance" is not reaching out to children under 10 by neutering and censoring our commentaries.
It might baffle you a bit, but there are mature persons who don't like to hear this words in a professional cast either. I would certainly be annoyed by it if the same language was to be used in a football (soccer) broadcast for example. There is no need for censorship, just don't use that vocabulary in professional, big broadcasts like GSL, MLG, etc. where you want to reach out for a more casual audience. Nobody cares about smaller events where just hardcore fans are watching anyways.
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On May 25 2011 02:16 k!llua wrote:
And someone should ban the idiot that suggested the OP simply stop watching the game with his children. That's really going to help things move forward, hey?
Let's start playing Call of Duty with children, that will surely help...because the game seriously need more acceptance and this will get things moving.
Think before you post.
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On May 25 2011 02:17 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:11 emythrel wrote:On May 25 2011 02:04 Joedaddy wrote:On May 25 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch. I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me. She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football. If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it. She's just trying to spend time with her father and he's trying to share with her something he enjoys. Why should that get disrupted and why should his parental goals be undermined because the casters are feeling antisocial?
BECAUSE ITS NOT FOR HER. Asking people not to swear because someone wants to let their 4 year old watch is insane, thats like saying to a film director "hey could you remove all the sex scenes and violence from your film because apart from that stuff, its totally appropriate for my 4 year to watch"..... simply insane. SC2 is not something you share with your children until they are ready to understand it, you find other things to do with them.
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I see it now, we'll have Sc2FamilyFun.tv all day and djWheat and 2gd hosting 'Starcraft After Dark' at midnight where they interview Swedes and all nasty shit >.<
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On May 25 2011 02:19 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:17 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:On May 25 2011 02:11 emythrel wrote:On May 25 2011 02:04 Joedaddy wrote:On May 25 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch. I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me. She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football. If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it. She's just trying to spend time with her father and he's trying to share with her something he enjoys. Why should that get disrupted and why should his parental goals be undermined because the casters are feeling antisocial? BECAUSE ITS NOT FOR HER. Asking people not to swear because someone wants to let their 4 year old watch is insane, thats like saying to a film director "hey could you remove all the sex scenes and violence from your film because apart from that stuff, its totally appropriate for my 4 year to watch"..... simply insane.
Why not? What inherent quality does SC casting have that makes it inappropriate for children. If the only issue is the language of the casters, then why should they force the issue?
If it's not the only issue, then let parents decide on that basis.
Ninja edit:
Something like TL attack I can see being kept for mature audiences. It's a bunch of guys messing around and being occasionally BM, so it may not be best for young kids.
But tournament casts should be widely accessible and should be kept clean. What helps parents isn't widespread censorship, but consistent standards.
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ok for the record, it's pretty easy to go into options and select something like "reduced gore" and all the death animations become really nondescript and it generally looks like reduced violence.
that said, starcraft 2 is a more wholesome activity than going to any public school in america; its both more mentally stimulating and there's less objectionable content.
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On May 25 2011 02:11 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:04 Joedaddy wrote:On May 25 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch. I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me. She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football. If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
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EPT
