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On May 25 2011 02:01 Bonkarooni wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 01:58 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 25 2011 01:55 Pokebunny wrote:On May 25 2011 01:53 Torte de Lini wrote:On May 25 2011 01:52 Vardant wrote:On May 25 2011 01:51 Chill wrote:
Because there's one thing we can't control doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about what we can control. You can't control what your kids play? Not all the time, especially when parents have two jobs and need to rely on the elder child to supervise the younger one after school. Well at that point you've already kind of given up censoring them personally, that's more of an issue of trust. You haven't given it up, you just haven't put as a priority beyond financially ensuring your child has food on the table, an education and a roof. Yes, it is an issue of trust where you trust your child's responsibility to not engage in things or shows that aren't suited for him. Whether he knows what is suitable for him or not is another issue. Point being, controlling things your children play is not always reasonable for some. Your point isn't really valid in this argument though...If a child is to the point of being raised by him/herself or an older sibling, I think hearing curse words in a starcraft commentary is probably the least of his/her concerns..
Not true either. Levels of responsibility are set at the interpretation of the child. To ensure he gets home in time or both siblings ensure that both know the rights and wrongs of their actions (or viewing of prohibited material) doesn't necessarily mean they have an understanding as to why nor apply to filter naughty words.
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On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote:
I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
Agreed
At the very least, it's disappointing to see people swear like sailors. Sometimes cursing is part of the joke, sometimes people just curse a lot as an alternative to saying "uh"
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I believe people should simply stop being wimps who shiver at the mere sight of the dreaded "F-bomb"... I mean seriously, cursing is totally harmless. It's merely a verbal tool to express emphasis or emotions that would be hard to convey otherwise.
The emphasis of a parent should be more about educating their children to discern when and how cursing is appropriate or not, than about desperately trying to protect them from ever hearing curses. A parent needs to educate before he "protects" in order to raise a child who will understand the world instead of being disoriented and scared once the protective veil inevitably shatters.
So to answer the question, no MPAA ratings should be required merely for casting a game such as sc2. People's conception of cursing should simply evolve and reach the 21st century.
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On May 25 2011 02:24 Joedaddy wrote:
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other?
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On May 25 2011 02:23 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:19 emythrel wrote:On May 25 2011 02:17 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:On May 25 2011 02:11 emythrel wrote:On May 25 2011 02:04 Joedaddy wrote:On May 25 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch. I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me. She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football. If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it. She's just trying to spend time with her father and he's trying to share with her something he enjoys. Why should that get disrupted and why should his parental goals be undermined because the casters are feeling antisocial? BECAUSE ITS NOT FOR HER. Asking people not to swear because someone wants to let their 4 year old watch is insane, thats like saying to a film director "hey could you remove all the sex scenes and violence from your film because apart from that stuff, its totally appropriate for my 4 year to watch"..... simply insane. Why not? What inherent quality does SC casting have that makes it inappropriate for children. If the only issue is the language of the casters, then why should they force the issue? If it's not the only issue, then let parents decide on that basis.
The inherent quality is that the game is designed for teens and up, therefore the casts cater to those people. SC2 is not football or tennis, its not for all ages and thats why even the damn government make them put labels on games that say what age group it is appropriate for. A 4 year old shouldn't be watching Starcraft unless you are ok with them being introduced to more adult themes.
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On May 25 2011 02:26 elis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:24 Joedaddy wrote:
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other?
She's seen more blood and guts watching me skin deer and clean fish.
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On May 25 2011 02:19 PhiLtheFisH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:09 Bobster wrote:
The way to "mainstream acceptance" is not reaching out to children under 10 by neutering and censoring our commentaries. It might baffle you a bit, but there are mature persons who don't like to hear this words in a professional cast either. I would certainly be annoyed by it if the same language was to be used in a football (soccer) broadcast for example. There is no need for censorship, just don't use that vocabulary in professional, big broadcasts like GSL, MLG, etc. where you want to reach out for a more casual audience. Nobody cares about smaller events where just hardcore fans are watching anyways. In that case, I'm not sure what the big events like GSL, MLG or EPS should do differently, since they're already upholding those standards as far as I'm aware. And since you also that this would be fine in the smaller events appealing to the hardcore fans...
Are we in agreement that nothing should change? :D
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I've been around swearing my whole life, and I see no problems with it whatsoever, if anything I encourage people to just speak how they do in real life....all the time.
By giving so much attention to the word FUCK you give it more power. To me, it's just a word, and has been my whole life. My mom uses it, even my GRANDMOM who is currently 86 years old says plenty of "bad words" and they have ever since I was old enough to remember.
Seriously what makes words bad for kids to hear? Why cant you just tell your kids what the words are, and not to go shouting them in public for no reason.
If I swear, there's a reason. Simple as that. Same for ANYTHING I say, no matter the "vulgarity"
I say let people express their thoughts in the most natural way for them, if that includes dropping "The F-Bomb" (artosis did it xD) when something REALLY exciting or crazy happens, or maybe saying "well shit, that really failed." when say Cliiiiiiiiide is gonna lose the game.
Seriously, words only have the meanings that you allow them to have. If my mom didnt censure the world from me and I turned out just fine, I don't see how other parents can't do the same. And she did it by herself.
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On May 25 2011 02:18 Befree wrote:
I don't believe you can claim a T-rating of a game means a similar 12+ rating for viewing it (ESRB rating). That rating takes into account things like language, suggestive themes, and drugs which are not involved in multiplayer viewing And it also takes into account that you are the one doing the actions. I almost certainly believe that if SC2 were broadcasted on television, it would be a PG rating, not TV-14.
Also, claiming that it is insignificant to you for someone to say the F word, or to make sexual jokes in front of a child, is not relevant. You can make all the claims you want about how his culture is wrong, or his societal values are out of date, but that does not change them. These things are wrong to him, and your two line post isn't going to change his world.
The OP also points to tournaments almost exclusively casted by Americans (TSL being the only exception I believe). And aside from the GSL, they are produced within the U.S. (TSL being a slight exception again). I don't think it is very unreasonable for him to ask for American produced casting to meet American standards for children. Now if he were to start claiming the ESL swears to much in their casts, that would be another story.
If these things like MLG and NASL are going to try to continue to grow in the U.S., they're going to have to start having either stricter standards, or at least describing the content beforehand with a rating system.
At the very least, I think you have to accept the OP's request for tournaments to say what kind of content will be involved in the casting. Not necessarily censor it.
The entire problem with your post is that SC2 is a game based around killing stuff. I understand that US culture has less of an issue with violence then with sexuality/cursing, but if you're showing your child the mass-deaths of things that resemble humans, being violently blown to bits by tanks, huge insects or space aliens, you should accept that that kind of violence comes with a certain kind of description, and that the people that play these games have developed a certain vocabulary to describe what they're doing. Noone in their right mind thinks 'raping' someone in a computer game has anything to do with the act of raping someone.
So yea, get over yourself. Have your kids watch stuff that's intended for them, not your inappropriate hobby. I hear dora the explorer is pretty legendary.
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I don't mind sexual jokes as long as they're funny. I don't really care about cursing at all, as longs as it's kind of funny to make up for the use of it.
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On May 25 2011 02:26 elis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:24 Joedaddy wrote:
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other? You've heard it here first. People being shot, sliced in two, blown up, dissolved in acidic spit or writhing while being burned alive is not as bad as a caster saying fuck or mentioning boobies.
It's a cultural thing.
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Any time a swedish player is giving an interview, mute that asap :D
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Germany442 Posts
On May 25 2011 02:29 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:19 PhiLtheFisH wrote:On May 25 2011 02:09 Bobster wrote:
The way to "mainstream acceptance" is not reaching out to children under 10 by neutering and censoring our commentaries. It might baffle you a bit, but there are mature persons who don't like to hear this words in a professional cast either. I would certainly be annoyed by it if the same language was to be used in a football (soccer) broadcast for example. There is no need for censorship, just don't use that vocabulary in professional, big broadcasts like GSL, MLG, etc. where you want to reach out for a more casual audience. Nobody cares about smaller events where just hardcore fans are watching anyways. In that case, I'm not sure what the big events like GSL, MLG or EPS should do differently, since they're already upholding those standards as far as I'm aware. And since you also that this would be fine in the smaller events appealing to the hardcore fans... Are we in agreement that nothing should change? :D
I think the big events could still improve a little bit in that regard. Other than that, it think that nothing really has to be changed as far as I can see.
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On May 25 2011 02:29 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:26 elis wrote:On May 25 2011 02:24 Joedaddy wrote:
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other? She's seen more blood and guts watching me skin deer and clean fish.
And you think that messes a child up less than hearing swearing? Holy moly...... I wouldn't even want to see that. Thats where the cultural divide really shows, if you think thats ok for your child but hearing some dude say the word fuck isn't.... we have completely different ideas about what is appropriate for a child, and I would guess 99% of the people in the UK would agree with me.
I'm not saying you are wrong to let your child see it, but just goes to show that whats ok in one place is completely different from another, and with the internet..... thats what you have to deal with.
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Personally I don't get why you would want your kids to watch sc2. That aside, sc2 won't ever be so mainstream that the majority of the viewers wont be 15-30 year old gamers. It would be a shame to force American fear of swearwords on it then.
Like everything it should be in moderation of course.
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okay show of hands, who didn't expect this thread to turn to shit on the first page
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On May 25 2011 02:29 Joedaddy wrote:
She's seen more blood and guts watching me skin deer and clean fish.
i just dont understand, how can some cussing from the casters be a problem when the game they are casting shows two armies doing their best to kill each other? i mean, how can hearing a word be tougher to deal with than seeing dad poke around inside a dead fish?
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On May 25 2011 02:24 Joedaddy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 02:11 emythrel wrote:On May 25 2011 02:04 Joedaddy wrote:On May 25 2011 01:57 Pokebunny wrote:On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch. I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me. She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football. If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it. Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
Well let's look at the ESRB rating site of SC2.
Shitton about the violence (against humans, which is an important factor).
You have a view - when you say it's only the swearing which annoys you - that is not compliant with the general view. Because of this you are the minority. I dont want to tell you to change your view - it's your buisness.
But if you request that the majority changes established standards because of you - it would need to change as well for the other minority which demands that SC2 is 18+, because of graphical voilence and shouldnt be broadcasted / played at all.
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Al Michaels wouldn't swear while calling a Monday night football game; I wish SC2 casters would follow suit. It would bring legitimacy to something I love.
There is nothing articulate about swearing and it's comedic value is used up almost immediately unless you're 13 or you're a knuckle dragger.
Nice post OP.
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On the differences between language and violence - you ever notice how much dark, disturbing content is in fairy tales and bedtime stories? ;o Regardless, they don't illustrate these scenes with vulgarity.
That aside, I think casters of big tourneys should be mindful of their language. Almost every competition or spectacle has some kind of implied or overt violence tied into it, but there is depth beyond that. There's no depth behind low-grade language, though there is occasional humor to be found - I'd say Day[9] is the one SC2 personality that applies it appropriately in his casts/content~. ;o
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EPT
