I just composed this as an email to State of the Game. Hope they address it, but I'd like to hear what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue.
I am a father of 2 boys (12 and 8) and we love watching Starcraft casts and tournaments. We watch most of NASL, TSL, IPL and occasionally GSL as well as lots of independent casts and streams. My oldest son and I have attended both MLG Dallas 2010 & 2011.
My question is about maturity level of the casting. Using MPAA ratings for comparison some casters I can count on to use PG language and jokes and some go all the way up to R level (or beyond). I try to learn the various styles and "ratings" for each caster and tournament and filter appropriately. If I know a caster is likely to drop F-bombs I will listen solo or maybe watch it on mute with the kids. Then there are casts that are mostly clean but occasionally use some harsher language or sexually oriented jokes (looking at you Gretorp). Another situation is during post game interviews with the players. 5 seconds into the TSL3 championship post game interview, the F-bomb emerges after a pretty clean cast. I reached for the mute button very quickly. Glad my wife didn't hear it.
I'm not trying to complain or say there should be any censorship, but I would like to hear your discussion on some sort of mechanism for determining what the age appropriateness of specific tournament casts will be. Would it be possible to have some sort of rating system so that when tuning in to watch a tournament I can know that the casters will or will not be using certain types of language?
Another idea is a PG edited version where someone has taken the time to bleep out parts of the cast (like the TV version of an R movie). I'd love to have this for something like the Day9 Daily but I know such things take time and money. Can you imagine an edited version of SOTG?
As esports continues to grow I think this may be a barrier to entry for some like myself who are trying to protect the minds and ears of our little children at least for a few more years. I realize my standards are quite different from many but there are established standards for the major TV networks. Would a model like this help or hurt esports development?
I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
I am a father of 2 boys (12 and 8) and we love watching Starcraft casts and tournaments. We watch most of NASL, TSL, IPL and occasionally GSL as well as lots of independent casts and streams. My oldest son and I have attended both MLG Dallas 2010 & 2011.
As a fellow StarCraft 2 fan, I only have one thing to say: Good job - you have my blessings!
To everything else: I don't know to be honest. On one hand, I'd love to have a more professional approach to the whole casting theme, but on the other hand I also love it the way it is. I definitely follow some of the questions, you raise and agree with them to an extent. I don't live in the United States where everything is filtered and censored, so I don't feel the same way that you do, nor am I as afraid to have my upcoming/potential children to here F-bombs or some stupid jokes, they don't really understand.
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
First let me say, that I'm not a fan of Gretorps weird and inapproriate jokes, but me not being American and live by your standards, what worries me is how afraid people are of your 12-year-old kid hearing the word 'fuck' or something similar.
An example could easily be Tastosis. I don't think they are inapproriate at all and most times they are often bringing very kid-friendly jokes to the table, but they overstep boundaries as well. But that just makes it more fun to some extent, if you ask me.
I find it hard to believe anyone will really have an issue with that you have brought up. Knowing beforehand what kind of language is used and them sticking to it I think is the first step. Having edited versions I think might happen but I find it more likely casters should just work on cleaning up the language.
The biggest issue I think is that different places have different standards. Since this is a global thing it is hard to really get a standard of casting or even standard medium of judging the language level of the casts. I assume the only way to do it is take the most sensitive demographic and have that as a "rating" system. So people know exactly what kind of language will be used within the casts.
That being said most casters are very passionate people and certain things might slip during a cast. So it's a hard thing to implement properly for now. I think in time it's a good thing to work towards. I doubt it really has any effect on esports development though. Esports will develop because people are passionate and enjoy it. If people give up on it because of language used within casts then I don't really think they would have helped the growth anyway.
EDIT:
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
I could be wrong but from what I heard certain demographics take language quite liberally. For instance what jinro and others have said about swearing in Sweden it sounds like a non-issue for children and/or parents. However certain jokes and imagery would most likely be inappropriate so how exactly do you rate something? Personally I find swearing a non-issue but other mature things as an issue but others might be different.
I do agree with you, just wondering what you would call "PG" etc.
I think you bring up some valid points. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is you're not as much worried about your children hearing certain words as repeating them? In which case maybe you can punish them for using language by not letting them watch certain shows?
The other thing, and this is a huge pet peeve of mine: Violent language vs "offensive" language. There doesn't seem to be much in the complaints about violent or aggressive language used by casters, and I don't personally take offense to it, but it seems much more offensive than various non-aggressive sexual terms that casters used ("The player is getting raped." is both sexual and violent), but I think a lot of the language people get offended by is mostly words that are either sexual words or sexual ideas which is a little silly. I don't plan on ripping someone's arms off at any time in the future, but I'm less so planning on having children by immaculate conception.
Edit: I also want to briefly touch on ratings. They're never going to be reliable and are mostly a form of censorship. I would much prefer it just have a warning about language used potentially offensive than have an R / PG-13 / PG / G rating system as the former inherently is a form of content control. I guess as long as it isn't legally enforced in anyway and is just a guidance I could be ok with it.
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
Pretty much agree with this. The big tournaments(GSL, NASL, IPL, TSL) should try and keep it PG. It's a good thing that parents are starting to watch with their kids, getting a whole new generation into e-sports is always good and casters should accommodate as best as they can.
I think for something like the Day9 Daily or user streams it would be pretty difficult to censor things. Not only does a user stream have a pretty targeted audience that may prefer harsh language, but more importantly those people are working within the confines of the site they use for streaming. Censoring mid-broadcast on Justin.tv is likely completely impossible.
For large scale productions like MLG or GSL etc I agree that stuff should be kept PG though. I also agree that NASL hasn't tried as hard to achieve a PG rating as they probably could!
I <3 Gretorp and Incontrol, but you guys know it's true
It is something that is likely to get better over time rather than worse as the game becomes more popular, so I don't think you need to worry too much.
Gretorp's sexual language should only be picked up by an adult minds filter of what is inappropriate. I doubt that at 12 or 8 years old I would of deciphered or did anything other than giggle when Gretorp keeps these sexual innuendos going.
I'd just stick to watching the big tournaments that are dry, clean and professional. SOTG, Day 9 and any other show like Inside the Game are suppose to be unfiltered and raw/fun/mature.
Just keep watching what you think is safe for your children and if you don't like what you are hearing, send the league and/or sponsors an e-mail telling them about the problem.
I think casters should aim for something along the lines of old (old!) episodes of The Simpsons. 'LOL', right? Let me explain:
When I was a kid, I watched The Simpsons. I laughed when Bart made jokes, or when Homer acted like a buffoon. However nowadays when I watch those older episodes, there is just so much subtle, adult oriented humour that I can still find funny.
If you wanna make 'mature' jokes, find ways to slip them in covertly, imo!
I think most livestreams are going to be caveat emptor type of scenarios but for pre-recorded streams or broadcasts, when the post-production knows the content already, maybe it is sensible to slap a warning before the broadcast or something.
I know Penny Arcade (when they used to do their DND podcasts) used to have "mature language" warnings before the podcasts. Something similar, I imagine, can't be that difficult, no?
From my recollection, I feel like 90% of content out there is PG or PG-13. SOTG, a few streamers/casters (Destiny comes to mind), and a few others are /maybe/ R because of a few f-bombs?
I think this is probably going to be a NA vs EU issue as it seems Americans and Canadians are more sensitive to these kinds of things. One of the things I like the most is the humor of certain people, and it really detracts from their style if they're forced to sort of put a filter on what they talk about. On the other hand I can understand that a father who enjoys this game doesn't want his kids to be exposed to this kind of stuff, but to be honest starcraft is designed with a slightly more mature audience, it is rated for over 16's (at least in the UK) and most of the audience is in their late teens to mid twenties. I'd really hate for show hosts to be filtered out because I feel like we lost a major part of their personality.
I don't care if people swear or make crass sexual jokes or innuendos when I watch anything. If your children are on the internet, they have access to so much fucked up shit that some swearing and smutty innuendo on a SC2 cast or YouTube video is practically harmless.
But if the caster is aiming for a more mainstream audience then you definitely have to mind your language because you're reaching out to an audience of all ages. But I like a solo caster who sticks to his personality more than someone who conforms to etiquette just because people think that some swearing and innuendo means the terrorists have won.
I really agree with you in the fact that the commentators need to be absolutely professional when casting live events. The NASL seems to be lacking this sometimes when the casters ( sometimes ) go off on a tangent. Although I don't have specific examples I'm sure people know what I'm talking about.
On May 25 2011 01:16 Demonace34 wrote: Gretorp's sexual language should only be picked up by an adult minds filter of what is inappropriate. I doubt that at 12 or 8 years old I would of deciphered or did anything other than giggle when Gretorp keeps these sexual innuendos going.
I'd just stick to watching the big tournaments that are dry, clean and professional. SOTG, Day 9 and any other show like Inside the Game are suppose to be unfiltered and raw/fun/mature.
Just keep watching what you think is safe for your children and if you don't like what you are hearing, send the league and/or sponsors an e-mail telling them about the problem.
Yes, most of the streams ive ever seen or even most of the GOMtv casts of GSL i watched (mainly VODs thought so mybe they edited out any swearing i missed) i havent seen any huge bad language. Ive heard 1/2 swears from tasteless before but nothing bad.
However i do remember a certain jinro in GSL season 3 swrore several times in his interviews lol, was funny though!
Many casters already seem to be watching themselves when they cast, especially the casters doing the big tournies such as the plott bros, artosis, incontrol and the like.
I think this is a great step for e-sports, and other casters should follow suit. As much as free speech is great, there should be a standard for casters that should allow them to be appropriate for all ages since this is a video game. The days where SC was a cult following is over... now it's mainstream. It's time for the professionals in the business to take notice of who they're talking to and entertaining. =]
What about an 'explicit' tag like iTunes or something? I agree, although "mature" language doesn't turn me off, If i was watching with my little brother or cousin I'd be grateful knowing a caster wouldn't 'go there'.
Maybe im selfish or just from a country much more tolerant of swearing and the like but i much prefer no censorship. I would think the vast majority of starcraft players/streaming viewers feel the same.
On May 25 2011 01:16 Demonace34 wrote: Gretorp's sexual language should only be picked up by an adult minds filter of what is inappropriate. I doubt that at 12 or 8 years old I would of deciphered or did anything other than giggle when Gretorp keeps these sexual innuendos going.
I'd just stick to watching the big tournaments that are dry, clean and professional. SOTG, Day 9 and any other show like Inside the Game are suppose to be unfiltered and raw/fun/mature.
Just keep watching what you think is safe for your children and if you don't like what you are hearing, send the league and/or sponsors an e-mail telling them about the problem.
This. Why don't parents realize this?
Kids don't understand subtext. kthxbai.
This is valid point. Back in the old days when I watched Friends as a 12 year old, I did not understand half the dirty jokes going around, but I was still entertained. Albeit it was also b/c my parents knew no english so I'm sure they didn't pick up on the subtext as well.... hahaha =]
But as much as I hate to say it, kids are getting smarter these days. In the near future (or even now) they will pick up on those things much easier due to the mildly censored mainstream entertainment out there. However, if Starcraft 2 wants to provide a medium that is much more traditionally acceptable for families, that would be a huge step in appeasing to the greater portion of the parents who desire to raise their kids in a safer/wholesome environment.
I know that plenty of people will argue times are changing and we should get over it... but all I'm saying is that this is my opinion. =]
On May 25 2011 01:12 MoreFaSho wrote: I think you bring up some valid points. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my guess is you're not as much worried about your children hearing certain words as repeating them? In which case maybe you can punish them for using language by not letting them watch certain shows?
The other thing, and this is a huge pet peeve of mine: Violent language vs "offensive" language. There doesn't seem to be much in the complaints about violent or aggressive language used by casters, and I don't personally take offense to it, but it seems much more offensive than various non-aggressive sexual terms that casters used ("The player is getting raped." is both sexual and violent), but I think a lot of the language people get offended by is mostly words that are either sexual words or sexual ideas which is a little silly. I don't plan on ripping someone's arms off at any time in the future, but I'm less so planning on having children by immaculate conception.
Isn't the 'violent' aspect just simply the result of watching a wargame tho? All over the screen units, resembling humans, are pretty much getting blown to bits, and I don't see how a 'violent' description of what essentially is over-the-top violence makes any of it any worse.
The same goes for offensive language, I mean, you have a problem with someone saying the word 'fuck' in front of your children, but stuff dying is suddenly 'cool'?
Casting is as much a game as the actual game, get over it. I think certain casters are more/less prone to use certain words (Tastosis being pretty much the least bad-mouthed of the major ones) and you should be able to trust that, but you can't expect to control what people say in an interview right after a victory. Especially with young players, celebrating a win, anything goes imo.
Wow, I'm amazed with the amount of negative response on this topic. I completely agree with the OP and I really think that's something the casters, and even more so, the tournamentadmins should take into account. We're all saying that we want e-sports to grow and to become a more socially acceptable hobby. To make that happen, we need to grow out of our own costume of immaturity and bring in more proffessionallism to the scene.
A very good topic and something that should really be something for every caster out there, heck every communitymember to read!
On May 25 2011 01:16 Demonace34 wrote: Gretorp's sexual language should only be picked up by an adult minds filter of what is inappropriate. I doubt that at 12 or 8 years old I would of deciphered or did anything other than giggle when Gretorp keeps these sexual innuendos going.
I'd just stick to watching the big tournaments that are dry, clean and professional. SOTG, Day 9 and any other show like Inside the Game are suppose to be unfiltered and raw/fun/mature.
Just keep watching what you think is safe for your children and if you don't like what you are hearing, send the league and/or sponsors an e-mail telling them about the problem.
This. Why don't parents realize this?
Kids don't understand subtext. kthxbai.
This is true to a point, I mean the simpsons have been using this type of thing for years, that's why its so popular. On one level the kids get it, and on another there's another whole level of Joke the parents can appreciate. I do think keeping bad language ie F-words and the like, kept out of casts can never be considered a bad thing. I think for the most part Day[9] is a lot more PG now than he used to be, occasionally something will slip, but for the most part his dailies are swear word free. Unless used for dramatic effect ie Just go+ Show Spoiler +
I absolutely agree with this, I watch a lot of things in my room with the speakers on while i'm doing other things and I would definitely prefer to not have to keep the volume down to prevent bad language from echoing through my house.
It's not just a personal wish either, I absolutely love the idea of parents and their kids watching SC2 together, or maybe the opposite, kids bringing their parents into SC2, and I think keeping tournaments PG makes that way easier. Day9 for instance, he says whatever the hell he wants during the daily and thats totally cool, id be upset if he did censor himself during the daily, but I have never heard him ever use any curse words in a tournament cast (at least as far as I can remember). I think this is how casters should compose themselves.
I don't want to call out any casters at all, up until now this would never have been considered an issue in E-sports broadcasting, not in a million years. But I guess things are changing a bit so adjustments need to be made to help facilitate the growth.
This is a non-issue in most european countries. Kids are on the internet watching porn and swear all the time when they are 12. However I do agree that it makes the cast more professional if they refrain from sexual jokes and swearing in big tournaments such as MLG, GSL, NASL etc.
The game is rated "T" for teen. Thats one rating system in place that you already do not follow. However, the produced tournaments should and generally do adhere to TV standards for swearing and some even push it a bit just like MTV does, which is fine.
People doing live streams can do whatever they want
I certainly wouldn't want the casts reduced to Chill's epic "Minerals being mined" style.
I remember a few weeks ago when SirScoots and others were campaigning on twitter to remove the term "rape" from the vocabulary in regards to gaming. I totally can get behind that.
We filter our kids' internet usage quite vigorously for obvious reasons. Once something gets into their heads, it stays there for a long time. As they get older, they get better equipped to deal with such things (if I've done my job right) and the sheltering gets less and less.
But then this isn't a "How To Parent" thread "The More You Know..."
On May 25 2011 01:11 Numy wrote: I find it hard to believe anyone will really have an issue with that you have brought up. Knowing beforehand what kind of language is used and them sticking to it I think is the first step. Having edited versions I think might happen but I find it more likely casters should just work on cleaning up the language.
The biggest issue I think is that different places have different standards. Since this is a global thing it is hard to really get a standard of casting or even standard medium of judging the language level of the casts. I assume the only way to do it is take the most sensitive demographic and have that as a "rating" system. So people know exactly what kind of language will be used within the casts.
That being said most casters are very passionate people and certain things might slip during a cast. So it's a hard thing to implement properly for now. I think in time it's a good thing to work towards. I doubt it really has any effect on esports development though. Esports will develop because people are passionate and enjoy it. If people give up on it because of language used within casts then I don't really think they would have helped the growth anyway.
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
I could be wrong but from what I heard certain demographics take language quite liberally. For instance what jinro and others have said about swearing in Sweden it sounds like a non-issue for children and/or parents. However certain jokes and imagery would most likely be inappropriate so how exactly do you rate something? Personally I find swearing a non-issue but other mature things as an issue but others might be different.
I do agree with you, just wondering what you would call "PG" etc.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask casters not to drop f-bombs or other similar words. Outside of that I think almost anything is fine.
From what I've experienced it's safe to watch the GSL and all the GOM tournaments, because all those casters are really attentive of their speech, and I'm sure GOM has assured the casters know their audience also may include children. Day9 is also pretty aware that nothing dirty goes on in his casts, except the occasional innuendo, but nothing graphic. So, those are safe to watch with your children. And it's a great thing you're doing with your kids, it's better then letting them game by themselves.
On May 25 2011 01:11 Numy wrote: I find it hard to believe anyone will really have an issue with that you have brought up. Knowing beforehand what kind of language is used and them sticking to it I think is the first step. Having edited versions I think might happen but I find it more likely casters should just work on cleaning up the language.
The biggest issue I think is that different places have different standards. Since this is a global thing it is hard to really get a standard of casting or even standard medium of judging the language level of the casts. I assume the only way to do it is take the most sensitive demographic and have that as a "rating" system. So people know exactly what kind of language will be used within the casts.
That being said most casters are very passionate people and certain things might slip during a cast. So it's a hard thing to implement properly for now. I think in time it's a good thing to work towards. I doubt it really has any effect on esports development though. Esports will develop because people are passionate and enjoy it. If people give up on it because of language used within casts then I don't really think they would have helped the growth anyway.
EDIT:
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
I could be wrong but from what I heard certain demographics take language quite liberally. For instance what jinro and others have said about swearing in Sweden it sounds like a non-issue for children and/or parents. However certain jokes and imagery would most likely be inappropriate so how exactly do you rate something? Personally I find swearing a non-issue but other mature things as an issue but others might be different.
I do agree with you, just wondering what you would call "PG" etc.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask casters not to drop f-bombs or other similar words. Outside of that I think almost anything is fine.
It depends on what the caster is doing I think. If its working for a professional tournament (or one that has a broad viewer base and sponsors funding it and whatnot) like DreamHack, MLG, GSL, NASL, TSL then yes they should be expected to uphold professional standards and conduct. If we're just talking about independent casters working on their own projects like Day9 daily, youtube commentary, State of the Game, etc then I think its ridiculous to expect them to censor their language.
On May 25 2011 01:30 TheConquereer wrote: Starcraft 2 is PEGI +16.
Haha indeed, such a good point. I personally can't watch a dry "pg" cast except in official stuff like MLG however something like the swedish wcg qualifiers few days ago was so much more entertaining than most of the "ok we official and professional" stuff so meh.
On May 25 2011 01:04 warsinger wrote: I just composed this as an email to State of the Game. Hope they address it, but I'd like to hear what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue.
I am a father of 2 boys (12 and 8) and we love watching Starcraft casts and tournaments. We watch most of NASL, TSL, IPL and occasionally GSL as well as lots of independent casts and streams. My oldest son and I have attended both MLG Dallas 2010 & 2011.
My question is about maturity level of the casting. Using MPAA ratings for comparison some casters I can count on to use PG language and jokes and some go all the way up to R level (or beyond). I try to learn the various styles and "ratings" for each caster and tournament and filter appropriately. If I know a caster is likely to drop F-bombs I will listen solo or maybe watch it on mute with the kids. Then there are casts that are mostly clean but occasionally use some harsher language or sexually oriented jokes (looking at you Gretorp). Another situation is during post game interviews with the players. 5 seconds into the TSL3 championship post game interview, the F-bomb emerges after a pretty clean cast. I reached for the mute button very quickly. Glad my wife didn't hear it.
I'm not trying to complain or say there should be any censorship, but I would like to hear your discussion on some sort of mechanism for determining what the age appropriateness of specific tournament casts will be. Would it be possible to have some sort of rating system so that when tuning in to watch a tournament I can know that the casters will or will not be using certain types of language?
Another idea is a PG edited version where someone has taken the time to bleep out parts of the cast (like the TV version of an R movie). I'd love to have this for something like the Day9 Daily but I know such things take time and money. Can you imagine an edited version of SOTG?
As esports continues to grow I think this may be a barrier to entry for some like myself who are trying to protect the minds and ears of our little children at least for a few more years. I realize my standards are quite different from many but there are established standards for the major TV networks. Would a model like this help or hurt esports development?
Love to hear your thoughts.
Warsinger Bronze Division Braxis Zeta
I'm sorry OP, but I don't see why when the rating system for SC2 determines the game to be appropriate for a "Teen", along with Language as one of the features that prompted that rating, that commentaries need to be separately rated for the "children" who are watching them. This comes with the territory, and if you get your children involved in anything internet-related, they are going to see and hear things that you both know and don't know about.
Anyway, they are going to hear this language in a year or two anyway at school, and what is more important than trying to get them to never hear it at all (good luck with that one) is to make sure they understand what it means and why it is not acceptable for them to use swear words themselves.
As a parent I can understand not wanting to expose your children to lots of swearing, but sexual innuendo and double entendres are way beyond children's understanding, and besides the game is rated for Teens, if you let your children watch it then you have chosen to allow them to view content not suitable for them.
I remember when the simpsons was shown after the watershed in the UK, now its shown on saturday mornings, along with Frasier, Friends and a whole bunch of other stuff that would have been considered adult when I was growing up. I've rarely heard swearing in SC2 casts for MLG, NASL and GSL and anything that doesn't fall into that category is not considered to be adult material and doesn't fall under watershed rules.
The NASL et al cater to an audience of mainly late teens and adults, its not for children.
Anyone from the UK will be familiar with panto jokes like the following:
Ugly sister 1: Do you like my new perfume? Ugly Sister 2: ooh, what's it called? Ugly sister 1: It's called "Come to me" Ugly Sister 2: Doesn't smell like come to me, smells more like wee wee
The kids laugh at wee wee, the adults laugh at the actual joke. This is the kind of stuff you hear on casts most of the time, if your kids understand the real joke then I would be worried about other things than them watching SC2
I would appreciate if certain casts were kept to a pg rating. I have many younger friends who I'm trying to get into SC2, but I can't comfortably recommend any of my favorite casters unless I want parents calling to yell at me. If there were a certain set of shows or tournaments that labeled themselves pg and kept to that, it would be awesome.
I doubt Europeans are going to do anything about it. When you here fuck this and fuck that at 3PM on TV no one is going to make it a big deal.
But yeah, I don't care either way. We get our Rated fun somewhere anyway, so people are not going to diss bigger tournaments if they try to be family friendly. Also, auto-mute if swedes are interviewed, the F-bomb is guaranteed.
On May 25 2011 01:11 Numy wrote: I find it hard to believe anyone will really have an issue with that you have brought up. Knowing beforehand what kind of language is used and them sticking to it I think is the first step. Having edited versions I think might happen but I find it more likely casters should just work on cleaning up the language.
The biggest issue I think is that different places have different standards. Since this is a global thing it is hard to really get a standard of casting or even standard medium of judging the language level of the casts. I assume the only way to do it is take the most sensitive demographic and have that as a "rating" system. So people know exactly what kind of language will be used within the casts.
That being said most casters are very passionate people and certain things might slip during a cast. So it's a hard thing to implement properly for now. I think in time it's a good thing to work towards. I doubt it really has any effect on esports development though. Esports will develop because people are passionate and enjoy it. If people give up on it because of language used within casts then I don't really think they would have helped the growth anyway.
EDIT:
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
I could be wrong but from what I heard certain demographics take language quite liberally. For instance what jinro and others have said about swearing in Sweden it sounds like a non-issue for children and/or parents. However certain jokes and imagery would most likely be inappropriate so how exactly do you rate something? Personally I find swearing a non-issue but other mature things as an issue but others might be different.
I do agree with you, just wondering what you would call "PG" etc.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask casters not to drop f-bombs or other similar words. Outside of that I think almost anything is fine.
I partly agree with you because of the following, let's say the swearing is a part of their persona. We all know casters who like to swear a bit. Let's take for example a caster who's show is aimed at the older teen audience (16-22). He get's asked to cast in a big tournament, then the tournament organizor should know what the caster's all about, because he'll take a part of his audience with him. And when he gets asked to tone it down a bit, it could dissapoint a part of the viewers who weren't expecting a change of persona. I hope you understand my reasoning because my english isn't the best. I find some casters pretty entertaining because of their swearing, and wouldn't like the down-toned version of them to cast, better to get a 'clean' caster then a toned-down one.
My attitude towards swearing is probably more relaxed because I am from Germany, and not from the States. All I have to say has already been said. In a rap song. Swearing pretty much all the time. You might wanna read this without your kids at your side:
It is by Eminem, and the song is called "Who knew". It's all about US hypocrisy when it comes to the difference between violence and cursewords.
So who's bringin the guns in this country? (Hmm?) I couldn't sneak a plastic pellet gun through customs over in London And last week, I seen a Schwarzenegger movie where he's shootin all sorts of these motherfuckers with a uzi I see three little kids, up in the front row, screamin "Go," with their 17-year-old Uncle I'm like, "Guidance - ain't they got the same moms and dads who got mad when I asked if they liked violence?" And told me that my tape taught 'em to swear What about the make-up you allow your 12-year-old daughter to wear? (Hmm?) So tell me that your son doesn't know any cuss words when his bus driver's screamin at him, fuckin him up worse ("Go sit the fuck down, you little fuckin prick!") And fuck was the first word I ever learned up in the third grade, flippin the gym teacher the bird (Look!)
Most of the casters are real "gamers" and gamers tend to use less appropriate language, especially online. Also the casts would be boring without some adult jokes here and there, since there are only 2 casters who provide complete info on the game for the whole duration of it, the rest need something extra to keep attention. And this:
On May 25 2011 01:35 Longshank wrote: So you ask for PG rated casting on a T rated game?
I guess it's a cultural thing but get worked up over some f-words while watching marines splatter all over the place seems odd to me.
On May 25 2011 01:11 Numy wrote: I find it hard to believe anyone will really have an issue with that you have brought up. Knowing beforehand what kind of language is used and them sticking to it I think is the first step. Having edited versions I think might happen but I find it more likely casters should just work on cleaning up the language.
The biggest issue I think is that different places have different standards. Since this is a global thing it is hard to really get a standard of casting or even standard medium of judging the language level of the casts. I assume the only way to do it is take the most sensitive demographic and have that as a "rating" system. So people know exactly what kind of language will be used within the casts.
That being said most casters are very passionate people and certain things might slip during a cast. So it's a hard thing to implement properly for now. I think in time it's a good thing to work towards. I doubt it really has any effect on esports development though. Esports will develop because people are passionate and enjoy it. If people give up on it because of language used within casts then I don't really think they would have helped the growth anyway.
EDIT:
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
I could be wrong but from what I heard certain demographics take language quite liberally. For instance what jinro and others have said about swearing in Sweden it sounds like a non-issue for children and/or parents. However certain jokes and imagery would most likely be inappropriate so how exactly do you rate something? Personally I find swearing a non-issue but other mature things as an issue but others might be different.
I do agree with you, just wondering what you would call "PG" etc.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask casters not to drop f-bombs or other similar words. Outside of that I think almost anything is fine.
How bad are f-bombs compared to "rape/d" in US-American Culture? In germany / most of continental europe an f-bomb is something you hear on TV / Radio all around the clock but the word "rape" would result in getting fired instantly. Just curious, because rape/d is really the only word I really have a problem with when listening to a cast (not personally but when reflecting upon how the general audience could receive that)
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
Should we sensor out the blood when a unit dies too? I'm a little lost as to why showing a young kid violence is better then letting him hear a curse word.
the biggest reason I have to disagree is that the game is rated at least 12+ (T in US) in every country that it is published. If you are allowing them to play/watch the game you are already assuming their level of responsibility to be of that level. I haven't played the SC2 campaign so I'm not sure how harsh the language is there, but the SC1 rating was reverted to T and it had pretty harsh language. I think it would be ridiculous to have the casts censored and watered down even more than the game itself.
Its different for every culture. Although I do agree that if some casters could tone it down it would be good. Tastosis for example, one of the very best casting duos and no bad language.
Only Americans are butthurted by F-bombs and things like that ...
BTW, Starcraft is supposed to be 12+yo (at least in France), so i don't see why casters should force them to speak in a certain way, when every 12+yo person is used to harsh words and such ...
On May 25 2011 01:42 Bonkarooni wrote: Excatly. The game already has a rating, expect anything you watch that involves the game to be at that rating. I think you're being silly if you expect otherwise.
Also, the f-bomb? one of your children is 12, I promise you some of his friends have said it already. He's going to learn the word eventually, I promise.
That is what blew my mind.
The game is rated T for Teens, which is age 13 and up. How can anyone let a 12 and 8 year old watch and probably even play the game, completely ignore the rating and then have the audacity to tell others, that they should follow his made-up standards.
This has probably been said but there is a 0% chance your 12 year old hasn't heard the word fuck. In fact 12 should be 6th or 7th grade right? Him and his friends probably cuss quite a bit..
I agree with the OP. Why should casters feel entitled to swear? It's unprofessional and it doesn't improve the commentary in the slightest. Best to keep the commentary PG rated for a variety of reasons.
I also agree with the above poster that "rape/d" should stop being used by casters immediately. I appreciate that the leaders of the SC community are pretty progressive and socially conscious in general but it makes me cringe every time Day[9] et al. use that word... I'd much rather my children hear 'shit' and 'fuck' than hear 'rape' being bandied about so casually.
On May 25 2011 01:46 Pokebunny wrote: I would agree with you
BUT
the biggest reason I have to disagree is that the game is rated at least 12+ (T in US) in every country that it is published. If you are allowing them to play/watch the game you are already assuming their level of responsibility to be of that level. I haven't played the SC2 campaign so I'm not sure how harsh the language is there, but the SC1 rating was reverted to T and it had pretty harsh language.
Goddamit poke, you beat me to the point I was going to bring up....
This game is already rated teen which implies it can have "infrequent use of strong language."
I see most casters use naughty language infrequently as well. I don't think of it as a real issue unless they're dropping f-bombs all day which I never actually see used given I watch a lot of casted events.
I do agree as far as saying fuck and talking about crazy weird stuff like casters sometimes do in big events but as far as anything else goes I think its fine as is. The game has cussing in it and even some of the in game units say curse words as well so it has to be expected casters should be able to say those things as well. User streams should always be rated M because I mean those aren't professional company paid streams (usually).
Well - I think enough people mentioned that you seem kind of a hypocrit that you want to discuss certain ratings for casts, when you already break other ratings (SC2 ESBR:T; PEGI: 16; ...) when you watch the games / casts with your kids. Wonder what your wife would say to that since you imply she would freak out over one "fuck"
But overall - I kinda have to agree. I dont care if someone says "fuck" (or other light swearing) or something like that after winning, or if a caster is being slightly inappropiate (if kids get the sexual reference, well then it's too late anyway^^) once/twice in a cast. Some casters though just should watch their language. It sometimes seems too much swearing and I have the impression the casters goad each other to new limits. And it just gets awkward.
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
Should we sensor out the blood when a unit dies too? I'm a little lost as to why showing a young kid violence is better then letting him hear a curse word.
Just because there's one thing we can't control doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about what we can control.
On May 25 2011 01:11 Numy wrote: I find it hard to believe anyone will really have an issue with that you have brought up. Knowing beforehand what kind of language is used and them sticking to it I think is the first step. Having edited versions I think might happen but I find it more likely casters should just work on cleaning up the language.
The biggest issue I think is that different places have different standards. Since this is a global thing it is hard to really get a standard of casting or even standard medium of judging the language level of the casts. I assume the only way to do it is take the most sensitive demographic and have that as a "rating" system. So people know exactly what kind of language will be used within the casts.
That being said most casters are very passionate people and certain things might slip during a cast. So it's a hard thing to implement properly for now. I think in time it's a good thing to work towards. I doubt it really has any effect on esports development though. Esports will develop because people are passionate and enjoy it. If people give up on it because of language used within casts then I don't really think they would have helped the growth anyway.
EDIT:
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
I could be wrong but from what I heard certain demographics take language quite liberally. For instance what jinro and others have said about swearing in Sweden it sounds like a non-issue for children and/or parents. However certain jokes and imagery would most likely be inappropriate so how exactly do you rate something? Personally I find swearing a non-issue but other mature things as an issue but others might be different.
I do agree with you, just wondering what you would call "PG" etc.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask casters not to drop f-bombs or other similar words. Outside of that I think almost anything is fine.
How bad are f-bombs compared to "rape/d" in US-American Culture? In germany / most of continental europe an f-bomb is something you hear on TV / Radio all around the clock but the word "rape" would result in getting fired instantly. Just curious, because rape/d is really the only word I really have a problem with when listening to a cast (not personally but when reflecting upon how the general audience could receive that)
Children would never hear fuck on TV or on the radio at normal hours. They would also never hear rape.
After-hours they are more likely to hear fuck than rape.
On May 25 2011 01:49 GagnarTheUnruly wrote: I agree with the OP. Why should casters feel entitled to swear? It's unprofessional and it doesn't improve the commentary in the slightest. Best to keep the commentary PG rated for a variety of reasons.
I also agree with the above poster that "rape/d" should stop being used by casters immediately. I appreciate that the leaders of the SC community are pretty progressive and socially conscious in general but it makes me cringe every time Day[9] et al. use that word... I'd much rather my children hear 'shit' and 'fuck' than hear 'rape' being bandied about so casually.
But you're okay with the fact that they watch death and violence on a constant basis? I would really like to hear the logic behind why shooting someone with a gun is okay to watch, but hearing bad words will somehow effect your kids in a negative way?
Well, especially on our show, we enforce a PG-13 rating purely because of what the OP stated; there is a large viewer base and our main demographic is 12-25ish, so we try to make it an enjoyable show for all.
But I don't feel that any stream takes it too overboard when it comes to cussing and inappropriate stuff on the air, and even if they did and continued to they'd probably loose quite alot of viewers because of it. Even the user streams are most of the time cuss free, although there are a few exceptions to this of course.
On May 25 2011 01:11 Numy wrote: I find it hard to believe anyone will really have an issue with that you have brought up. Knowing beforehand what kind of language is used and them sticking to it I think is the first step. Having edited versions I think might happen but I find it more likely casters should just work on cleaning up the language.
The biggest issue I think is that different places have different standards. Since this is a global thing it is hard to really get a standard of casting or even standard medium of judging the language level of the casts. I assume the only way to do it is take the most sensitive demographic and have that as a "rating" system. So people know exactly what kind of language will be used within the casts.
That being said most casters are very passionate people and certain things might slip during a cast. So it's a hard thing to implement properly for now. I think in time it's a good thing to work towards. I doubt it really has any effect on esports development though. Esports will develop because people are passionate and enjoy it. If people give up on it because of language used within casts then I don't really think they would have helped the growth anyway.
EDIT:
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
I could be wrong but from what I heard certain demographics take language quite liberally. For instance what jinro and others have said about swearing in Sweden it sounds like a non-issue for children and/or parents. However certain jokes and imagery would most likely be inappropriate so how exactly do you rate something? Personally I find swearing a non-issue but other mature things as an issue but others might be different.
I do agree with you, just wondering what you would call "PG" etc.
I don't think it's unreasonable to ask casters not to drop f-bombs or other similar words. Outside of that I think almost anything is fine.
How bad are f-bombs compared to "rape/d" in US-American Culture? In germany / most of continental europe an f-bomb is something you hear on TV / Radio all around the clock but the word "rape" would result in getting fired instantly. Just curious, because rape/d is really the only word I really have a problem with when listening to a cast (not personally but when reflecting upon how the general audience could receive that)
In the UK saying raped on TV before the watershed would be bad unless its part of a drama storyline or the news, using it like gamers do would be....very bad. But then this is the internet, not TV.
IN the states they allow 5 year children to watch wrestling, in which there are women wearing next to nothing, people beating each other with metal chairs, sledge hammers and all kinds of weird stuff and they do ALOT of sexual jokes....... WWE is "PG" these days and still does this stuff (PG in WWE means no swearing, and no blood). SC2 is a game and is what i would consider cartoon violence, but its a game for teens and up, asking casters to cater to a miniscule minority of viewers by being completely PG is just silly..... not swearing i can get on board with, but the rest i can't.
As a parent the responsibility falls on you. If your child is 12 its generally accepted in NA culture that they will have encountered cursing at one point or another. You're also 100% fully aware that cursing may [ and is likely to ] occur.
8 year olds don't understand sexual innuendo. You are asking gretorp to forever cut out his signature awkwardness towards sexual innuendo jokes in order to cater to a very very small group.
I think the OP made this kind of request without thinking about it much further than 1. I want to enjoy starcraft with my kids. 2. Oops, I'm actually exposing them to cursing. 3. I still want my kids to watch starcraft with me so organizations should change.
Instead, you should just realize that you cannot change the nature of casters/gamers who grew up just like your own children and use this opportunity to act as a responsible parent to explain what cursing is to your children and how they should handle it.
Personally I think a lot of viewers would be turned off by the fact that interviews would be censored, emotions couldn't be caught live, and imposing your own values onto players/organizations from around the world.
Edit: Seriously I've seen so many posters say they want more emotion and personal interaction in the west compared to what we saw in BW progaming and GSL, yet some guy makes a post about his kids where he has maybe 1 valid complaint [ 8 year old ] and suddenly everyone can't say fuck once per 3 hour broadcast? Come on.
I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
On May 25 2011 01:51 Chill wrote: Because there's one thing we can't control doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about what we can control.
You can't control what your kids play?
Not all the time, especially when parents have two jobs and need to rely on the elder child to supervise the younger one after school.
Well at that point you've already kind of given up censoring them personally, that's more of an issue of trust.
You haven't given it up, you just haven't put as a priority beyond financially ensuring your child has food on the table, an education and a roof.
Yes, it is an issue of trust where you trust your child's responsibility to not engage in things or shows that aren't suited for him. Whether he knows what is suitable for him or not is another issue.
Point being, controlling things your children play is not always reasonable for some.
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
Should we sensor out the blood when a unit dies too? I'm a little lost as to why showing a young kid violence is better then letting him hear a curse word.
Just because there's one thing we can't control doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about what we can control.
But we could control this...It would be slightly harder, but I also would imagine that seeing someone get shot with a gun and hearing a cheering crowd behind it is more harmful to a childs psyche then hearing the f-bomb is.
Personally, I dont think either are actually that harmful, but I can't understand why you'd say one IS harmful and the other isn't.
Can you link anything studies that say swearing is worse then violence? Or are you just saying that casters should censor themselves to meet some outdated american ideals?
I would not mind a rating system, since it could help people like warsinger, and, in an a perfect world, not hurt anyone. I do not wan't a secret meeting of secret people, choosing the rating, if the rating afterwards was used by websites, to choose if a stream should be shown - which is the worst case scenario. I would not mind if websites had a rating system, but the rating should not hold any power, but mainly being an information.To be honest I don't really trust websites not to abuse a rating, so in the end I would not like a rating (not TL of course, but other websites ) . I want websites to be able to choose which stream they want to show, but not from one person/groups oppinion, since it would give the person/group so much power, and I dont believe that there is a person in E-sports without any conflict of interest.
The solution I see, is that each stream should rate themselves, if they don't keep to their own rating, we would realise quie fast (if you say you don't want to say f**k, and after 5 min you have said it 5 times........). So maybe a global rating system, but streamers should rate them selves, then websites could post the rating, and people who care, can watch the stream, and make sure it is something they wan't/don't wan't to see. This way the rating won't have too much power, since each streamer choose their own rating, and it is still gonna be usefull (asuming that most af the streamers a honest people). The difference between this, and no rating, is that you can sort out the streams by looking the rating that are worse, and companies like GOMTV/NASL/MLG, would have to keep their own rating, or else I am sure it will have a negative effect.
My assumption is that most people are honest, but no one are so honest they can handle all the streams by them selves (being a group or a person).
The solution is not perfect, but i think that there is some situations we should avoid (like i mentioned at the start of my post) at all cost (the worst cost being no rating system).
After a while you should figure out who you can trust and who you can't. I never really paid attention to it all that much, but I don't think Husky swears a whole lot nor does HD and they are both really good casters with enough energy to keep kids entertained too.
Crota)Blizshouter) isn't as energic, but you'll never hear him swear or say any bad things at all. He's a pretty good caster too.
You can't take a caster that swears quite a bit and make sex reference in his casts since the beggining and expect him to change his style completely. That's who he is, you like it you watch it, you don't like it, you don't watch it.
There is enough content out there to find casters that suits what you want.
And post game interview there's always a risk, if you aren't ready to take the risk, mute them..
On May 25 2011 01:51 Chill wrote: Because there's one thing we can't control doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about what we can control.
You can't control what your kids play?
Not all the time, especially when parents have two jobs and need to rely on the elder child to supervise the younger one after school.
Well at that point you've already kind of given up censoring them personally, that's more of an issue of trust.
You haven't given it up, you just haven't put as a priority beyond financially ensuring your child has food on the table, an education and a roof.
Yes, it is an issue of trust where you trust your child's responsibility to not engage in things or shows that aren't suited for him. Whether he knows what is suitable for him or not is another issue.
Point being, controlling things your children play is not always reasonable for some.
Your point isn't really valid in this argument though...If a child is to the point of being raised by him/herself or an older sibling, I think hearing curse words in a starcraft commentary is probably the least of his/her concerns..
This idea that swearing is somehow damaging for kids is outdated and wrong. In Denmark, where I am from, we hear swear words in tv daily and we still manage to have a less kids shoot them self than in USA
Also, the f-word is used a lot in the campaign, so if you allow your kids to play/watch SC2 then they might have already heard it.
In stead of sheltering your kids from "bad" words, you should educate them so they know how and when to use them...
Also, the f-word and other swear words help bring passion into the commentating, if it wasn't for those words we could just have a robot commentating
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football.
On May 25 2011 01:49 GagnarTheUnruly wrote: I agree with the OP. Why should casters feel entitled to swear? It's unprofessional and it doesn't improve the commentary in the slightest. Best to keep the commentary PG rated for a variety of reasons.
I also agree with the above poster that "rape/d" should stop being used by casters immediately. I appreciate that the leaders of the SC community are pretty progressive and socially conscious in general but it makes me cringe every time Day[9] et al. use that word... I'd much rather my children hear 'shit' and 'fuck' than hear 'rape' being bandied about so casually.
But you're okay with the fact that they watch death and violence on a constant basis?
No, I'm not.
Still think I'm a hypocrite?
Reasons for not cussing in a SC cast:
a) It's unnecessary b) It's unprofessional c) It offends some people
All good reasons not to do it. As Chill pointed out the argument that it's OK to cuss on a SC cast because SC is a T rated game is vapid because one doesn't follow naturally from the other. There's no reason to compound the T-ratedness of it, particularly as different people have different standards of what they find acceptable and willing to expose their children to, and they're entitled to making their own standards. Cussing doesn't add anything to casts at best, and at worst it offends some people and reduces acceptance of SC, so why do it?
A few things, as I agree with the OP. Before it was so readily accessible I didn't mind the language, but now that SC2 is bigger it definitely has to have casters that filter their language. It's not an issue of maturity and who should watch what. It's more about taking shoutcasting and the SC2 competitive scene seriously. This is a place where a cue should be taken from the major networks in including as many people as possible, or rather, excluding as few as possible.
Oh and the argument about "your kids are going to hear it anyway" is a pretty poor one, and one that typically comes from younger people that don't have kids. There's no sense in explaining it either to someone without children, they wouldn't understand.
Video games and ESPORTS have been the domain of 14-22 year old boys since their inception. If you want to bring more money into ESPORTS (as a caster, player, whatever) then you have to drag a bigger net. That means appealing to a wider audience base. Obviously the decision is up to the organization hosting/running the tournament, or the individual casting/commentating their play, but attracting new viewers might mean not swearing.
On May 25 2011 01:32 Bergys wrote: This is a non-issue in most european countries. Kids are on the internet watching porn and swear all the time when they are 12. However I do agree that it makes the cast more professional if they refrain from sexual jokes and swearing in big tournaments such as MLG, GSL, NASL etc.
On May 25 2011 01:41 HwangjaeTerran wrote: I doubt Europeans are going to do anything about it. When you here fuck this and fuck that at 3PM on TV no one is going to make it a big deal.
But yeah, I don't care either way. We get our Rated fun somewhere anyway, so people are not going to diss bigger tournaments if they try to be family friendly. Also, auto-mute if swedes are interviewed, the F-bomb is guaranteed.
On May 25 2011 01:48 Fatalize wrote: Only Americans are butthurted by F-bombs and things like that ...
BTW, Starcraft is supposed to be 12+yo (at least in France), so i don't see why casters should force them to speak in a certain way, when every 12+yo person is used to harsh words and such ...
I would say the same for my country. Also I don't think I have ever picked up something wildly inappropriate. You cannot put sporadic mild cursing in there, many times they even go holy cow. But if you do, well that guy that screams at the cashier in front of you makes your kid not go with you when you do groceries.
However if there would somehow be a rating for casters. I would personally think it's kinda stupid, though I like that it makes it easier for parents to decide if they should allow their kids to watch it.
However with that, if you are the one watching you are a much better judge for what your kid can watch than any rating system.
I believe the rating system itself is good, but it's main purpose is for allowing a parent to decide if it's ok to buy game X for their kid when they will never know wtf game X is. You just check the box and it's like <drugs,sex,cursing> ok I think my child is too young for that. "No, you cannot get this game".
So with that in mind, I don't think its relevant to have a rating system for a parent that wants his child to watch streams with him.
Furthermore there is one negative to the rating system and that is the stigma or something. Especially for newer people or those who improperly use a rating system, not only they but we would miss out on them watching.
On May 25 2011 02:02 Ramong wrote: This idea that swearing is somehow damaging for kids is outdated and wrong. In Denmark, where I am from, we hear swear words in tv daily and we still manage to have a less kids shoot them self than in USA
Also, the f-word is used a lot in the campaign, so if you allow your kids to play/watch SC2 then they might have already heard it.
In stead of sheltering your kids from "bad" words, you should educate them so they know how and when to use them...
Also, the f-word and other swear words help bring passion into the commentating, if it wasn't for those words we could just have a robot commentating
Tbh this reminds me of a gig i played about 2 years ago, I swear alot on stage, I don't really know why but in between songs when im talking about why i wrote this or that song I swear more than i should. So anywho, I'm playing a gig at a pub and a woman walks up to me in between sets and says "Hi, I'm really enjoying the music but do you think you could tone down the language you use when you are talking, by 14 year old daughter is here"....
I said, in the most polite way I could that I this is a pub, therefore her 14 year daughter shouldn't be here unless she is willing to hear bad language and that I wouldn't censor myself for the sake of one person that shouldn't even be in the building anyway.
Words are just words, they don't hurt anyone, while we need to be considerate of our audience as performers, you can't ask someone to cater to an audience their performance wasn't intended for.
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Watch your language young man, this thread is rated PG. I'm reading it with my 8-year old kid and had to close this thread really fast when I saw this nasty word in that post of yours.
Luckily, the wife didn't see it...
Good natured sarcasm aside, I wouldn't worry about a couple curse words like fuck or similar in a commentary about a game that's rated 12+. But being European, I do have less problems with cursing and the depiction and discussion of sex than most US people do, so I dunno if that's what the OP wants to hear.
The way to "mainstream acceptance" is not reaching out to children under 10 by neutering and censoring our commentaries.
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football.
If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
Seems to depend on the event being casted. The GSL is the most professional out of all of them since they are produced straight out of a television company, Artosis and Tasteless, along with Moletrap and now Wolf, seem to keep it pretty tame, while casts that are more tied to an internet stream or website tend to have more liberal use of language as it is taking place in a more relaxed and less professional setting. It seems as though GSL events and LAN events such as MLG and ESL etc are your best bet because they are under the jurisdiction of an overarching corporation or organization.
You're still trying to justify letting your kids watch a T rated game, which they shouldn't.
The casters might become more careful with their language in the future, if it's going to be needed for it to look more professional, but you still shouldn't let your kids watch it, because it's a T rated game!
You've got parental controls on everything for gods sake. It was probably USA in the first place, that made sure of this, but you don't even use it and blame others, instead of taking the blame.
If your kids like to hang out, when you play, then play something else. Or you're telling me, that if they see you watch Dexter or Spartacus, you keep watching, because you like to hang out with them?
For the record, my 12 yo plays SC2 but I don't let him play the campaign because of the language and some other content. He doesn't like it but he lives with it. My 8 yo watches him play custom games and such. And my wife and I still debate whether this is OK between ourselves.
As for the argument that they're going to hear this anyway so anything goes, just because something might happen doesn't mean I want it in my house on a constant basis. The more we hear things the more we internalize it and desensitize to it. Take the example of the word "rape". The more we hear it the more it desensitizes us to the horror of the reality of the word.
If I think something is bad for my children, I try to protect them from it till I feel they are ready to deal with it on their own. This is very personal and different for each family and individual child which is why I didn't call for any kind of regulation or mandates, just some consideration and perhaps information.
In America, the Federal Communication Commission (FCC) has broad jurisdiction over the standards on broadcast media (i.e. "free-air" TV and radio). The basic standard can be summed-up by the George Carlin monologue "Seven Words You Can Never Say on Television".
Also, American TV has lots and lots of violence. However, American TV will not allow nudity in any form. Again, big cultural issue here, as it is my understanding that Europe is the opposite in this regard.
And someone should ban the idiot that suggested the OP simply stop watching the game with his children. That's really going to help things move forward, hey?
This shouldn't be hard to resolve - get a few heads together and just agree to have some form of self-induced rating advertised along with the broadcast (you are viewing a PG, MA+15 broadcast or whatever).
Well some casters do tend to make sex jokes, but i doubt anyone who isnt at least 13 understands it.
I dont know of any caster who says fuck a lot. Actually i dont think i've ever heard it from any live caster. If someone could tell me who does that then go ahead. Maybe in player interviews? But it seems like such a small problem. I would let almost anyone watch NASL, MLG or GSL.
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football.
If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
She's just trying to spend time with her father and he's trying to share with her something he enjoys. Why should that get disrupted and why should his parental goals be undermined because the casters are feeling antisocial?
On May 25 2011 02:14 warsinger wrote: For the record, my 12 yo plays SC2 but I don't let him play the campaign because of the language and some other content. He doesn't like it but he lives with it. My 8 yo watches him play custom games and such. And my wife and I still debate whether this is OK between ourselves.
As for the argument that they're going to hear this anyway so anything goes, just because something might happen doesn't mean I want it in my house on a constant basis. The more we hear things the more we internalize it and desensitize to it. Take the example of the word "rape". The more we hear it the more it desensitizes us to the horror of the reality of the word.
If I think something is bad for my children, I try to protect them from it till I feel they are ready to deal with it on their own. This is very personal and different for each family and individual child which is why I didn't call for any kind of regulation or mandates, just some consideration and perhaps information.
I'm totally with you on the swearing, unfortunately gamers have long used "rape" to describe being absolutely ripped apart by your opponent, it has a completely different meaning to how it is used outside of gaming and is a hard word to get people to stop using, long time gamers use it without thinking about it, its not considered swearing or inappropriate to use for most of us. If we can remove it from casts, then all the better, but it would be very hard simply because its one of those words that gamers use.
I don't believe you can claim a T-rating of a game means a similar 12+ rating for viewing it (ESRB rating). That rating takes into account things like language, suggestive themes, and drugs which are not involved in multiplayer viewing And it also takes into account that you are the one doing the actions. I almost certainly believe that if SC2 were broadcasted on television, it would be a PG rating, not TV-14.
Also, claiming that it is insignificant to you for someone to say the F word, or to make sexual jokes in front of a child, is not relevant. You can make all the claims you want about how his culture is wrong, or his societal values are out of date, but that does not change them. These things are wrong to him, and your two line post isn't going to change his world.
The OP also points to tournaments almost exclusively casted by Americans (TSL being the only exception I believe). And aside from the GSL, they are produced within the U.S. (TSL being a slight exception again). I don't think it is very unreasonable for him to ask for American produced casting to meet American standards for children. Now if he were to start claiming the ESL swears to much in their casts, that would be another story.
If these things like MLG and NASL are going to try to continue to grow in the U.S., they're going to have to start having either stricter standards, or at least describing the content beforehand with a rating system.
At the very least, I think you have to accept the OP's request for tournaments to say what kind of content will be involved in the casting. Not necessarily censor it.
I agree with you the bigger productions like GSL, MLG and TSL should perhaps watch their language a bit. Just because of the variety of possible viewers.
"smaller" productions like day9, sotg, into the game should have the freedom to do what they want.
This said, people also shouldnt freak out if they hear 1 bad word. Wheat starting TSL with "wazzzzzupppp bitches" is just him being him, and i thought that was absolutely fine. Kids of 12 hear far worse things hanging around with their friends on the playground nowadays.
While I agree that casters should really try and keep things professional. I still don't understand why people shelter their kids from words they have very likely heard already.
On May 25 2011 02:09 Bobster wrote: The way to "mainstream acceptance" is not reaching out to children under 10 by neutering and censoring our commentaries.
It might baffle you a bit, but there are mature persons who don't like to hear this words in a professional cast either. I would certainly be annoyed by it if the same language was to be used in a football (soccer) broadcast for example. There is no need for censorship, just don't use that vocabulary in professional, big broadcasts like GSL, MLG, etc. where you want to reach out for a more casual audience. Nobody cares about smaller events where just hardcore fans are watching anyways.
On May 25 2011 02:16 k!llua wrote: And someone should ban the idiot that suggested the OP simply stop watching the game with his children. That's really going to help things move forward, hey?
Let's start playing Call of Duty with children, that will surely help...because the game seriously need more acceptance and this will get things moving.
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football.
If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
She's just trying to spend time with her father and he's trying to share with her something he enjoys. Why should that get disrupted and why should his parental goals be undermined because the casters are feeling antisocial?
BECAUSE ITS NOT FOR HER. Asking people not to swear because someone wants to let their 4 year old watch is insane, thats like saying to a film director "hey could you remove all the sex scenes and violence from your film because apart from that stuff, its totally appropriate for my 4 year to watch"..... simply insane. SC2 is not something you share with your children until they are ready to understand it, you find other things to do with them.
I see it now, we'll have Sc2FamilyFun.tv all day and djWheat and 2gd hosting 'Starcraft After Dark' at midnight where they interview Swedes and all nasty shit >.<
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football.
If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
She's just trying to spend time with her father and he's trying to share with her something he enjoys. Why should that get disrupted and why should his parental goals be undermined because the casters are feeling antisocial?
BECAUSE ITS NOT FOR HER. Asking people not to swear because someone wants to let their 4 year old watch is insane, thats like saying to a film director "hey could you remove all the sex scenes and violence from your film because apart from that stuff, its totally appropriate for my 4 year to watch"..... simply insane.
Why not? What inherent quality does SC casting have that makes it inappropriate for children. If the only issue is the language of the casters, then why should they force the issue?
If it's not the only issue, then let parents decide on that basis.
Ninja edit:
Something like TL attack I can see being kept for mature audiences. It's a bunch of guys messing around and being occasionally BM, so it may not be best for young kids.
But tournament casts should be widely accessible and should be kept clean. What helps parents isn't widespread censorship, but consistent standards.
ok for the record, it's pretty easy to go into options and select something like "reduced gore" and all the death animations become really nondescript and it generally looks like reduced violence.
that said, starcraft 2 is a more wholesome activity than going to any public school in america; its both more mentally stimulating and there's less objectionable content.
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football.
If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
On May 25 2011 01:51 Chill wrote: Because there's one thing we can't control doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about what we can control.
You can't control what your kids play?
Not all the time, especially when parents have two jobs and need to rely on the elder child to supervise the younger one after school.
Well at that point you've already kind of given up censoring them personally, that's more of an issue of trust.
You haven't given it up, you just haven't put as a priority beyond financially ensuring your child has food on the table, an education and a roof.
Yes, it is an issue of trust where you trust your child's responsibility to not engage in things or shows that aren't suited for him. Whether he knows what is suitable for him or not is another issue.
Point being, controlling things your children play is not always reasonable for some.
Your point isn't really valid in this argument though...If a child is to the point of being raised by him/herself or an older sibling, I think hearing curse words in a starcraft commentary is probably the least of his/her concerns..
Not true either. Levels of responsibility are set at the interpretation of the child. To ensure he gets home in time or both siblings ensure that both know the rights and wrongs of their actions (or viewing of prohibited material) doesn't necessarily mean they have an understanding as to why nor apply to filter naughty words.
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
Agreed
At the very least, it's disappointing to see people swear like sailors. Sometimes cursing is part of the joke, sometimes people just curse a lot as an alternative to saying "uh"
I believe people should simply stop being wimps who shiver at the mere sight of the dreaded "F-bomb"... I mean seriously, cursing is totally harmless. It's merely a verbal tool to express emphasis or emotions that would be hard to convey otherwise.
The emphasis of a parent should be more about educating their children to discern when and how cursing is appropriate or not, than about desperately trying to protect them from ever hearing curses. A parent needs to educate before he "protects" in order to raise a child who will understand the world instead of being disoriented and scared once the protective veil inevitably shatters.
So to answer the question, no MPAA ratings should be required merely for casting a game such as sc2. People's conception of cursing should simply evolve and reach the 21st century.
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football.
If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
She's just trying to spend time with her father and he's trying to share with her something he enjoys. Why should that get disrupted and why should his parental goals be undermined because the casters are feeling antisocial?
BECAUSE ITS NOT FOR HER. Asking people not to swear because someone wants to let their 4 year old watch is insane, thats like saying to a film director "hey could you remove all the sex scenes and violence from your film because apart from that stuff, its totally appropriate for my 4 year to watch"..... simply insane.
Why not? What inherent quality does SC casting have that makes it inappropriate for children. If the only issue is the language of the casters, then why should they force the issue?
If it's not the only issue, then let parents decide on that basis.
The inherent quality is that the game is designed for teens and up, therefore the casts cater to those people. SC2 is not football or tennis, its not for all ages and thats why even the damn government make them put labels on games that say what age group it is appropriate for. A 4 year old shouldn't be watching Starcraft unless you are ok with them being introduced to more adult themes.
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other?
She's seen more blood and guts watching me skin deer and clean fish.
On May 25 2011 02:09 Bobster wrote: The way to "mainstream acceptance" is not reaching out to children under 10 by neutering and censoring our commentaries.
It might baffle you a bit, but there are mature persons who don't like to hear this words in a professional cast either. I would certainly be annoyed by it if the same language was to be used in a football (soccer) broadcast for example. There is no need for censorship, just don't use that vocabulary in professional, big broadcasts like GSL, MLG, etc. where you want to reach out for a more casual audience. Nobody cares about smaller events where just hardcore fans are watching anyways.
In that case, I'm not sure what the big events like GSL, MLG or EPS should do differently, since they're already upholding those standards as far as I'm aware. And since you also that this would be fine in the smaller events appealing to the hardcore fans...
Are we in agreement that nothing should change? :D
I've been around swearing my whole life, and I see no problems with it whatsoever, if anything I encourage people to just speak how they do in real life....all the time.
By giving so much attention to the word FUCK you give it more power. To me, it's just a word, and has been my whole life. My mom uses it, even my GRANDMOM who is currently 86 years old says plenty of "bad words" and they have ever since I was old enough to remember.
Seriously what makes words bad for kids to hear? Why cant you just tell your kids what the words are, and not to go shouting them in public for no reason.
If I swear, there's a reason. Simple as that. Same for ANYTHING I say, no matter the "vulgarity"
I say let people express their thoughts in the most natural way for them, if that includes dropping "The F-Bomb" (artosis did it xD) when something REALLY exciting or crazy happens, or maybe saying "well shit, that really failed." when say Cliiiiiiiiide is gonna lose the game.
Seriously, words only have the meanings that you allow them to have. If my mom didnt censure the world from me and I turned out just fine, I don't see how other parents can't do the same. And she did it by herself.
On May 25 2011 02:18 Befree wrote: I don't believe you can claim a T-rating of a game means a similar 12+ rating for viewing it (ESRB rating). That rating takes into account things like language, suggestive themes, and drugs which are not involved in multiplayer viewing And it also takes into account that you are the one doing the actions. I almost certainly believe that if SC2 were broadcasted on television, it would be a PG rating, not TV-14.
Also, claiming that it is insignificant to you for someone to say the F word, or to make sexual jokes in front of a child, is not relevant. You can make all the claims you want about how his culture is wrong, or his societal values are out of date, but that does not change them. These things are wrong to him, and your two line post isn't going to change his world.
The OP also points to tournaments almost exclusively casted by Americans (TSL being the only exception I believe). And aside from the GSL, they are produced within the U.S. (TSL being a slight exception again). I don't think it is very unreasonable for him to ask for American produced casting to meet American standards for children. Now if he were to start claiming the ESL swears to much in their casts, that would be another story.
If these things like MLG and NASL are going to try to continue to grow in the U.S., they're going to have to start having either stricter standards, or at least describing the content beforehand with a rating system.
At the very least, I think you have to accept the OP's request for tournaments to say what kind of content will be involved in the casting. Not necessarily censor it.
The entire problem with your post is that SC2 is a game based around killing stuff. I understand that US culture has less of an issue with violence then with sexuality/cursing, but if you're showing your child the mass-deaths of things that resemble humans, being violently blown to bits by tanks, huge insects or space aliens, you should accept that that kind of violence comes with a certain kind of description, and that the people that play these games have developed a certain vocabulary to describe what they're doing. Noone in their right mind thinks 'raping' someone in a computer game has anything to do with the act of raping someone.
So yea, get over yourself. Have your kids watch stuff that's intended for them, not your inappropriate hobby. I hear dora the explorer is pretty legendary.
I don't mind sexual jokes as long as they're funny. I don't really care about cursing at all, as longs as it's kind of funny to make up for the use of it.
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other?
You've heard it here first. People being shot, sliced in two, blown up, dissolved in acidic spit or writhing while being burned alive is not as bad as a caster saying fuck or mentioning boobies.
On May 25 2011 02:09 Bobster wrote: The way to "mainstream acceptance" is not reaching out to children under 10 by neutering and censoring our commentaries.
It might baffle you a bit, but there are mature persons who don't like to hear this words in a professional cast either. I would certainly be annoyed by it if the same language was to be used in a football (soccer) broadcast for example. There is no need for censorship, just don't use that vocabulary in professional, big broadcasts like GSL, MLG, etc. where you want to reach out for a more casual audience. Nobody cares about smaller events where just hardcore fans are watching anyways.
In that case, I'm not sure what the big events like GSL, MLG or EPS should do differently, since they're already upholding those standards as far as I'm aware. And since you also that this would be fine in the smaller events appealing to the hardcore fans...
Are we in agreement that nothing should change? :D
I think the big events could still improve a little bit in that regard. Other than that, it think that nothing really has to be changed as far as I can see.
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other?
She's seen more blood and guts watching me skin deer and clean fish.
And you think that messes a child up less than hearing swearing? Holy moly...... I wouldn't even want to see that. Thats where the cultural divide really shows, if you think thats ok for your child but hearing some dude say the word fuck isn't.... we have completely different ideas about what is appropriate for a child, and I would guess 99% of the people in the UK would agree with me.
I'm not saying you are wrong to let your child see it, but just goes to show that whats ok in one place is completely different from another, and with the internet..... thats what you have to deal with.
Personally I don't get why you would want your kids to watch sc2. That aside, sc2 won't ever be so mainstream that the majority of the viewers wont be 15-30 year old gamers. It would be a shame to force American fear of swearwords on it then.
Like everything it should be in moderation of course.
She's seen more blood and guts watching me skin deer and clean fish.
i just dont understand, how can some cussing from the casters be a problem when the game they are casting shows two armies doing their best to kill each other? i mean, how can hearing a word be tougher to deal with than seeing dad poke around inside a dead fish?
On May 25 2011 01:55 Joedaddy wrote: I agree with the OP. I'd love to be able to include my daughter when I watch tournaments but I can't because of the crude language used by the casters.
The only thing my daughter knows about SC2 is that it is not appropriate for her to watch.
I'd like your explanation for why you think it's okay for them to watch/play a teen rated game but not to listen to a (IMO) PG-13 cast. I'm not trying to be an asshole, it just doesn't make sense to me.
She doesn't play SC2 because she is only 4. She sees me watching tournaments though and wants to watch too. She does the same thing when I watch other sports. She's not old enough to play, but she still likes hang out with dad and ask questions about baseball and football.
If your daughter is 4 she should be watching cartoons, not SC2. No amount of PGness makes SC2 appropriate for a 4 year old, even the most basic parts of the game would be beyond her comprehension anyways. Sometimes being a parent means telling your kids, sorry this is Daddy time, if your Daddy time is interfering with your together time, then thats a whole other issue. My son is 6, i let him play SC2 and watch SC2 but he also understands that its not ok to shoot guns (hes not even allowed toy guns) and its not ok to swear, even if i do swear in his presence from time to time, he knows that swear words are for adult use only, if he couldn't understand those ideas.... i wouldn't let him play it.
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
Well let's look at the ESRB rating site of SC2. Shitton about the violence (against humans, which is an important factor).
You have a view - when you say it's only the swearing which annoys you - that is not compliant with the general view. Because of this you are the minority. I dont want to tell you to change your view - it's your buisness. But if you request that the majority changes established standards because of you - it would need to change as well for the other minority which demands that SC2 is 18+, because of graphical voilence and shouldnt be broadcasted / played at all.
Al Michaels wouldn't swear while calling a Monday night football game; I wish SC2 casters would follow suit. It would bring legitimacy to something I love.
There is nothing articulate about swearing and it's comedic value is used up almost immediately unless you're 13 or you're a knuckle dragger.
On the differences between language and violence - you ever notice how much dark, disturbing content is in fairy tales and bedtime stories? ;o Regardless, they don't illustrate these scenes with vulgarity.
That aside, I think casters of big tourneys should be mindful of their language. Almost every competition or spectacle has some kind of implied or overt violence tied into it, but there is depth beyond that. There's no depth behind low-grade language, though there is occasional humor to be found - I'd say Day[9] is the one SC2 personality that applies it appropriately in his casts/content~. ;o
On May 25 2011 02:14 warsinger wrote: As for the argument that they're going to hear this anyway so anything goes, just because something might happen doesn't mean I want it in my house on a constant basis. The more we hear things the more we internalize it and desensitize to it. Take the example of the word "rape". The more we hear it the more it desensitizes us to the horror of the reality of the word.
For the 12 year old this isn't something he is going to hear it's something he has heard and hears on a daily basis. If he's gone to public school his whole life then he probably uses it himself. It's actually kind of amazing to me how quickly parents forget what middle school is like.
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other?
She's seen more blood and guts watching me skin deer and clean fish.
And you think that messes a child up less than hearing swearing? Holy moly...... I wouldn't even want to see that. Thats where the cultural divide really shows, if you think thats ok for your child but hearing some dude say the word fuck isn't.... we have completely different ideas about what is appropriate for a child, and I would guess 99% of the people in the UK would agree with me.
I'm not saying you are wrong to let your child see it, but just goes to show that whats ok in one place is completely different from another, and with the internet..... thats what you have to deal with.
You're starting to get it. People have different standards. Some parents might have an issue with the violence in SC -- others may not. Some may have more of an issue than others with rude language during casts. Kids differ in what they can handle, too, and it's up to the parents and not the casters to decide.
The point is, there's no reason to pack casts to the gills with PEGI 16 just because the game is independently rated that way. Some parents may feel that their kids can easily come to grips with the way violence is presented in the game, but they don't want them to also be challenged by rude language from the casters.
Why make it harder than it needs to be? Where is the good reason to use bad language on tournament casts?
kids are going to learn swear words sooner or later, chances are they already know most of them from school, i know i was cursing up a storm by the time i was in 6th grade (of course this is also because asian parents curse all the time). the novelty wears off and you end up not doing it that later. i dunno. i really don't think it is a huge deal.
i started playing sc when i was around their age. the original marine had the saying 'oooh that's the stuff' whenever you stimpacked them, and the original sc booklet even mentioned that marines used drugs as a a method to 'increase their rate of fire'. that doesn't mean i suddenly thought that shooting amphetamines was cool.
i think people underestimate how much kids can grasp, and yes, a child can certainly learn that context matters, which a valuable thing to learn. for example, i learned that cursing around friends or peers was fine, cursing in a manner towards older people was not, cursing as a method to express hate was also not 'acceptable'. i think its quite a bit a better to let a child see this, and make them more socially adept.
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.
Because of that, I wouldn't expect any caster to censor their language at any level lower than that.
Although, if some casters truly are rated M, I can agree that there should be a way of distinguishing them from those who are not.
I do agree with you and I don't think it is a bad thing watching Starcraft with your children. I grow up playing Starcraft with my father and to this very day I still cherish those time that I shared with my old man. It means a world to me as I am sure would to them.
Being mannered and considerate is definitely not too much to ask for from the casters. You don't have to be vulgar to be funny.
On May 25 2011 02:38 IPA wrote: Al Michaels wouldn't swear while calling a Monday night football game; I wish SC2 casters would follow suit. It would bring legitimacy to something I love.
There is nothing articulate about swearing and it's comedic value is used up almost immediately unless you're 13 or you're a knuckle dragger.
Nice post OP.
And that's why the worlds most famous comedians never swear... oh wait......
I'm sorry but any argument that swearing is immature or dumb doesn't make sense, one of the most famous people in the UK is Stephen Fry, an oxford educated man who is probably smarter than any two people i know, with a wit beyond pretty much anyone else on this planet and he is one of the biggest supporters of the use of swearing. It give language flavour and can be used to great effect for dramatic or comedic purposes.... just because you've never heard someone swear in an intelligent way doesn't mean its inherently dumb...
Infact the most intelligent people on the planet generally swear alot, Albert Einstein was notorious for swearing, if you are going to tell me that he was a knuckle dragger then I honestly would just laugh.
On May 25 2011 02:09 Bobster wrote: The way to "mainstream acceptance" is not reaching out to children under 10 by neutering and censoring our commentaries.
It might baffle you a bit, but there are mature persons who don't like to hear this words in a professional cast either. I would certainly be annoyed by it if the same language was to be used in a football (soccer) broadcast for example. There is no need for censorship, just don't use that vocabulary in professional, big broadcasts like GSL, MLG, etc. where you want to reach out for a more casual audience. Nobody cares about smaller events where just hardcore fans are watching anyways.
In that case, I'm not sure what the big events like GSL, MLG or EPS should do differently, since they're already upholding those standards as far as I'm aware. And since you also that this would be fine in the smaller events appealing to the hardcore fans...
Are we in agreement that nothing should change? :D
I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
I myself prefer as little swearing as possible but I have no problem listening to SotG or watching Day9. Preference: they scale back. Is it s a deal-breaker? No. However, I think the more "censoring" or really just self-control in expressing oneself to the public, the more happy the mainstream audience will be. I can't deny the effect of some words in certain contexts but most of the time it's not really necessary at all.
On May 25 2011 02:14 warsinger wrote: As for the argument that they're going to hear this anyway so anything goes, just because something might happen doesn't mean I want it in my house on a constant basis. The more we hear things the more we internalize it and desensitize to it. Take the example of the word "rape". The more we hear it the more it desensitizes us to the horror of the reality of the word.
For the 12 year old this isn't something he is going to hear it's something he has heard and hears on a daily basis. If he's gone to public school his whole life then he probably uses it himself. It's actually kind of amazing to me how quickly parents forget what middle school is like.
Since when did we decide to let middle schoolers become standard bearers for acceptable behavior?
On May 25 2011 02:38 IPA wrote: Al Michaels wouldn't swear while calling a Monday night football game; I wish SC2 casters would follow suit. It would bring legitimacy to something I love.
There is nothing articulate about swearing and it's comedic value is used up almost immediately unless you're 13 or you're a knuckle dragger.
Nice post OP.
And that's why the worlds most famous comedians never swear... oh wait......
I'm sorry but any argument that swearing is immature or dumb doesn't make sense, one of the most famous people in the UK is Stephen Fry, an oxford educated man who is probably smarter than any two people i know, with a wit beyond pretty much anyone else on this planet and he is one of the biggest supporters of the use of swearing. It give language flavour and can be used to great effect for dramatic or comedic purposes.... just because you've never heard someone swear in an intelligent way doesn't mean its inherently dumb...
Infact the most intelligent people on the planet generally swear alot, Albert Einstein was notorious for swearing, if you are going to tell me that he was a knuckle dragger then I honestly would just laugh.
Even though Stephen Fry, Lewis Black, Louis C.K., etc can apply vulgarity to express a point or present humor, that doesn't mean everyone who uses vulgarity is immediately as funny as they.
I feel like if you can give an acceptable logical reason why ANYONE shouldn't say the word 'fuck' or how a word can be 'bad', then you have a point. Otherwise, you need to think well what should they say instead. 'Darn' instead of 'shit'? It's a synonym. It conveys more emotion, sure, but the actual logic behind curse words even existing is just silly
On May 25 2011 02:14 warsinger wrote: As for the argument that they're going to hear this anyway so anything goes, just because something might happen doesn't mean I want it in my house on a constant basis. The more we hear things the more we internalize it and desensitize to it. Take the example of the word "rape". The more we hear it the more it desensitizes us to the horror of the reality of the word.
For the 12 year old this isn't something he is going to hear it's something he has heard and hears on a daily basis. If he's gone to public school his whole life then he probably uses it himself. It's actually kind of amazing to me how quickly parents forget what middle school is like.
Since when did we decide to let middle schoolers become standard bearers for acceptable behavior?
Oh I'm not really using that as an argument that casters should be allowed to swear in tourneys I don't really have an opinion on that since I literally don't care either way. I kind of like hearing Artosis swear since it's funny but I also hate gretorops jokes. Just pointing out the ridiculousness of not wanting a 12 year old to hear the word 'fuck'.
I hate this whole "Bad Language" thing. The only reason it is bad language is because YOU (the general public) label it as bad. If you simply turned round and said it was just a word you use to emphasize emotions and statements, then you can't get offended by them?
I just think its silly that eventually you are going to have to tell your kids "So kids, today we will learn about the word "shit". Now although you know this word you are NEVER allowed to say it!"
If people just accepted them as normal words that are used for expression no one would EVER have a problem with them.
The occasional fuck is a problem but exploding marines are not?
I do understand the issue though but when a game is rated "teen" already which is 13+ apparently then where do you get the idea that maybe the casting should be completely f-bomb free because you are watching it with an 8 and 12 year old.
On the other side, swearing does not help e-sports grow if you look at it from a professional view.
On May 25 2011 02:38 IPA wrote: Al Michaels wouldn't swear while calling a Monday night football game; I wish SC2 casters would follow suit. It would bring legitimacy to something I love.
There is nothing articulate about swearing and it's comedic value is used up almost immediately unless you're 13 or you're a knuckle dragger.
Nice post OP.
And that's why the worlds most famous comedians never swear... oh wait......
I'm sorry but any argument that swearing is immature or dumb doesn't make sense, one of the most famous people in the UK is Stephen Fry, an oxford educated man who is probably smarter than any two people i know, with a wit beyond pretty much anyone else on this planet and he is one of the biggest supporters of the use of swearing. It give language flavour and can be used to great effect for dramatic or comedic purposes.... just because you've never heard someone swear in an intelligent way doesn't mean its inherently dumb...
Infact the most intelligent people on the planet generally swear alot, Albert Einstein was notorious for swearing, if you are going to tell me that he was a knuckle dragger then I honestly would just laugh.
People who can use swearing to actually color their language with additional texture and meaning are exceedingly few and far between. SC2 casters are not future George Carlins, I'm afraid. If Stephen Fry ever ends up casting, let me know; otherwise, your post wasn't relevant.
When MLG / GSL / NASL get big enough, language standards will absolutely go into effect. It's just a matter of time.
On May 25 2011 02:48 Westy wrote: I hate this whole "Bad Language" thing. The only reason it is bad language is because YOU (the general public) label it as bad. If you simply turned round and said it was just a word you use to emphasize emotions and statements, then you can't get offended by them?
I just think its silly that eventually you are going to have to tell your kids "So kids, today we will learn about the word "shit". Now although you know this word you are NEVER allowed to say it!"
If people just accepted them as normal words that are used for expression no one would EVER have a problem with them.
I agree with you, though I also feel that catch-all expletives like shit 'n' fuck tend to drag down the level of conversation. Have you also noticed this?
SC2 has an ESRB rating of Teen. How old are your kids?
I guess desensitizing your children to racially charged violence is ok, but you'd rather not have to face the wrath of mommy when your kid drops the f-bomb for the first time.
On May 25 2011 02:49 IPA wrote: When MLG / GSL / NASL get big enough, language standards will absolutely go into effect. It's just a matter of time.
Ok - let's discuss this when SC2 is getting big enough. Until then the casters should be allowed to drop a "fuck" every once in a while or make a sexual reference.
On May 25 2011 01:04 warsinger wrote: what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue.
We sure earned that one. Gawsh we like to debate. But yes SOTG should be allowed to go on as it were and be obnoxious and inappropriate at times. And the GSL should be professional and not include swearing. And everyone else should find their niche and act accordingly. We will be taken seriously one day when the whole gang comes over with their nephews beers and chips to gather round the tube and watch their favorite team. And late night starcraft on cable will say Parent advisory: Mature language and awkward sexual jokes. ( lol poor gretorp)
All professional attempts to reach a large audience should make aware the appropriate viewer.
Those speaking of the violence of starcraft in relation to the language used by casters. please srsly? take it up at the PTA if you have an issue with video game violence that has nothing to do with this. kids hear and repeat words that's the issue with accidentally exposing your kids to language.
I believe NASL TSL GSL should not use offensive language so no ones daughter will be told starcraft is not appropriate for her to watch.
For me, as someone who grew up with swearing being as natural as breathing I have to say I would find a censored cast very stale and boring (whether it was being censored by bleeps or by casters not using ''harsh language'').
But that's just me, if some casters want to start censor themselves to reach out to the people who for different reasons want a ''clean'' caster then awesome, the more casters and casting styles the better.
However, for the big tournaments my guess would be that the majority of viewers don't fall into the category of people who want less swearing and to be frank, the majority rules.
Maybe you should include a poll about how people feel about swearing? (does it bother them?, don't care?, want it to stay?, toned down? etc.etc)
Lets censor SC just like we fucking censor everything else for no good reason. Don't like the cast or the language? Mute it. SC2 is a teen rated game anyway is it not? Don't want casters having to tiptoe around for the sake of not offending 6 people.
I think that events should be able to cast with whatever language they like but with the knowledge they could lose fans because of excessive cursing. I don't think that any restricitions should be put on any major tournament, we're lucky enough we even have them cast in english. If the GSL NASL MLG or any other tourney wanna stay clean (and all 3 are extremely clean) then thats perfectly fine with me however if they wanted to let day9 rip it up with f-bombs I would also approve of this as well. Its up to them with how they would like their tourney ran, its not TV its the internet remember.
The way I see it is the rating for the game is the same "rating" that the casting has I consider most all casts to be at around the teen level otherwise the kids really shoudlnt be doing anything with the game except I guess watching is ok but I dont think they will really get any of the jokes that they make that are adult anyway sooooooo.
Well again fact is that this is a international community and diffrent standards apply. For instance its not uncommon for politicians to use FFS in speaches here and as a result its not going to bother anyone. NASL MLG for example can have there standards set but you cannot expect the same standards evrywhere and each cast will be diffrent While im sure that GSL tries to avoid them aswell i would not expect a dreamhack event for example without atleast a little swearing any time soon.
Speaking from a personal view i belive it can add a certain passion too the cast and emphasis that something amazeing happend in a way that feels more genuine cause the caster doesnt spend time thinking of the word for it.
On May 25 2011 01:26 centinel4 wrote: It is an interesting topic. But i would rather be outside kicking/throwing a ball with my kids.
as much as that would sound like you are having fun with your kids doing that, its all about having fun with your kids, some may go out side and play, others stay in and watch starcraft with there son and daughter? it shouldnt really matter, but hes still looking out for his kids regardless ,
I always thought, that they should get some characters from sesame street to cast NASL. I would prefer it by the way, if NASL edited out all the blood and replaced the marines with robots. Do it for the children please.
you think it's ok that an 8 year old sees the violence in sc2 (the game is rated ESRB: T / PEGI: 16+ for a reason) but you're worried he might be corrupted by some caster using the "f-word" every once in a while? seriously?
I personally want my casters to speak however they want to. I don't see the need for online Starcraft II streams to follow the rules of american Television. There is obviously no need for swear words, but if that's what the caster wants to say then I want him to be allowed to do so. Even more so if he's not a caster. If Thorzain thinks that his victory is "fucking amazing", he should be allowed to say that, otherwise there's no point in having him interviewed at all. (The american view on swear words is hard for me to understand anyways. No TV show in the world uses language as bad as the average schoolyard conversation, so I feel it's pretty sugarcoated to pretend kids won't learn to use words like "fuck" if they don't hear them on TV.)
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other?
She's seen more blood and guts watching me skin deer and clean fish.
And you think that messes a child up less than hearing swearing? Holy moly...... I wouldn't even want to see that. Thats where the cultural divide really shows, if you think thats ok for your child but hearing some dude say the word fuck isn't.... we have completely different ideas about what is appropriate for a child, and I would guess 99% of the people in the UK would agree with me.
I'm not saying you are wrong to let your child see it, but just goes to show that whats ok in one place is completely different from another, and with the internet..... thats what you have to deal with.
You're starting to get it. People have different standards. Some parents might have an issue with the violence in SC -- others may not. Some may have more of an issue than others with rude language during casts. Kids differ in what they can handle, too, and it's up to the parents and not the casters to decide.
The point is, there's no reason to pack casts to the gills with PEGI 16 just because the game is independently rated that way. Some parents may feel that their kids can easily come to grips with the way violence is presented in the game, but they don't want them to also be challenged by rude language from the casters.
Why make it harder than it needs to be? Where is the good reason to use bad language on tournament casts?
Simply because casting is in part connecting with your audience, and SC2 gets played/watched mainly by men between the ages of 14-28 (give or take). As much as it might offend you, this is the vocabulary used in competitive gaming and between the majority of people that discuss the games together. To not use that vocabulary would in my eyes (and I'm guessing a large part of viewers) diminish the 'authenticity'. If casting suddenly became a swamp of political correctness, it loses at lot of it's appeal.
Your children are in no way the target audience, and tailoring the vocabulary to overconcerned parents would diminish a lot of the casting personalities have come to know and love (in the eyes of the intended viewers).
You should be able to count on casters to be somewhat consistent in their level of cursing, but that's all you should expect. There's absolutely no need to appease a minority with 'higher' standards, especially a standard so illogical that it places more value on words that are commonly used in the real world, but is perfectly fine with extreme violence.
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
What's the harm in children hearing "fuck" or the like? It's just a word, I really don't understand the whole censorship thing North America has going on, it's such an alien concept to me. That said, I believe your complaint is unfounded, I've heard tastosis utter the word "fuck" a grand total of once if I recall correctly. And sexually charged humor goes way over kids heads, so don't even worry about that. Just think back to when you were that age, would you have understood? I sure as hell didn't when I was 8.
I think the GSL is always a safe bet I dont remember Tastosis or Doa/Moletrap ever cussing but I could be wrong since I dont pay attention to it. Lets face it ... Gretorp/Incontrol are going to say inappropriate stuff IMO its hilarious but thats just there style.
But seriously come on ... first of all if your kid is 12 years old he most likely has heard everything in the book and more and you probably just dont realize hes not a little kid anymore. Your 8 your 8 year old kid has probably seen worse on TV. I think its a non issue... if dont want them to see/hear it dont watch it.
99.9999999% of the SC2 community is over 12/13 and I see no problem in the casting language for that age group
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
im sorry, im not a parent so i may not be able to relate as much. Personally I think making all the starcraft casts "children with sensitive parents proof" is a bad idea. I don't think it should be vulgar or anything but come on, 99.99% of the people watching it are grown ups anyway.
apart from that I think its totally rediculous to be horrified of your children hearing the "F word" while you are letting them whatch a game where people are:
-shot to death -burned to dust -splattered over the floor -ripped to shreds -molten by acid -etc.
and all of that with very audible screams of agony and death. But ofcourse, your children, your choice. I just dont think sc2 is a game for little kids at all.
This is surely a problem mostly for americans? This hypervigilant attitude towards cursing. Fuck is not an fbomb, its just a word. Or at least I have no problem with it. I don't have kids myself, but watch my brothers every now and then.. A little cursing is the least of their problems. I'm also a teacher... and believe me.. these kids already know all that stuff and use it^^
OP, I think the original idea you've presented is a solid idea not only for the people in your situation but for teenagers who might want to share SC2 with their siblings/parents and explain their hobby to their family.
It's a shame that a discussion about something completely reasonable got turned into a critique of your parenting and a bunch of mindless chest-beating over how little people care about the word fuck.
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
But that's to play the game. Not to watch it, By that logic if Football could only be played 18+ then you'd be saying people can't watch who are under 18 for example. I can't see any harm in a special symbol showing if the show is going to contain alot of cussing or anything for that matter. It's not hard to do and just helps people choosing what to watch.
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
Wow you didnt read the thread did you? This is about casts and streams getting a rating if they contain strong language etc and not about starcraft itself, dumbass
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
No there's a T label and there's no need to be an ass about it.
I totally agree with you. The whole e-Sport scene is laking professionalism in many fields. The commentators of the big leagues and tournaments should strive after becoming role models for the kids watching. One person i feel truly understands this and deserves credit for it is iNcontroL. He does alot for the community and also trying to make e-Sports more professional.
A persons maturity can be reflected in his use of language. That's atleast something I've learned from meeting other people. And if we want e-Sports to grow we should present the scene more maturely. At the same time I like the chill attitude and the using of jokes during the commentating. So it's not like we have to choose one or the other. We can have both.
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
But that's to play the game. Not to watch it, By that logic if Football could only be played 18+ then you'd be saying people can't watch who are under 18 for example. I can't see any harm in a special symbol showing if the show is going to contain alot of cussing or anything for that matter. It's not hard to do and just helps people choosing what to watch.
So it's ok for kids to watch others having sex since they are not doing it themselves :3
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
But that's to play the game. Not to watch it, By that logic if Football could only be played 18+ then you'd be saying people can't watch who are under 18 for example. I can't see any harm in a special symbol showing if the show is going to contain alot of cussing or anything for that matter. It's not hard to do and just helps people choosing what to watch.
So it's ok for kids to watch others having sex since they are not doing it themselves :3
I wish you could've posted a serious reply, That's obviously a different matter and not related what so ever.
However as someone posted above me; This would also be a good thing for showing friends/family about Starcraft/eSports and would be great to be involving more people in it.
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
But that's to play the game. Not to watch it, By that logic if Football could only be played 18+ then you'd be saying people can't watch who are under 18 for example. I can't see any harm in a special symbol showing if the show is going to contain alot of cussing or anything for that matter. It's not hard to do and just helps people choosing what to watch.
If you go into the situation knowing the content being reviewed/watched is mature, you should expect mature content?
does some far right christian boys still dont know all these words by age 8 in america? thats strange.. do they know theres an act called love making or do you not get to know about these things until after marriage?
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
But that's to play the game. Not to watch it, By that logic if Football could only be played 18+ then you'd be saying people can't watch who are under 18 for example. I can't see any harm in a special symbol showing if the show is going to contain alot of cussing or anything for that matter. It's not hard to do and just helps people choosing what to watch.
If you go into the situation knowing the content being reviewed/watched is mature, you should expect mature content?
Amazing.
As someone else stated, It's a T label actually. But you're saying the content is "mature" and yet there is no complaint about that, The OP is saying about the actual casting/commentating being Mature and no warning when going to watch it. He's not saying anything about the game's ESRB rating at all.
Stop derailing the thread already. The OP asked is a "Rating" system for streams.
I think that solution is too good. Streamers could write in their stream description: "I use mature language" or "I refrain from profane language" and the problem is solved. If a streamer does not write that, watch at your own peril.
On May 25 2011 03:19 Soma.bokforlag wrote: does some far right christian boys still dont know all these words by age 8 in america? thats strange.. do they know theres an act called love making or do you not get to know about these things until after marriage?
they do know all of them... but for some reasons parents here choose the least important things to worry about when parenting
but please know that not all of US citizens are like this
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
But that's to play the game. Not to watch it, By that logic if Football could only be played 18+ then you'd be saying people can't watch who are under 18 for example. I can't see any harm in a special symbol showing if the show is going to contain alot of cussing or anything for that matter. It's not hard to do and just helps people choosing what to watch.
If you go into the situation knowing the content being reviewed/watched is mature, you should expect mature content?
Amazing.
As someone else stated, It's a T label actually. But you're saying the content is "mature" and yet there is no complaint about that, The OP is saying about the actual casting/commentating being Mature and no warning when going to watch it. He's not saying anything about the game's ESRB rating at all.
Fine, it's Teen. Doesn't change much considering the situation.
Perhaps I'll start a dildo review blog but ensure that I keep the language civil. After all, I don't want to offend any father's that may be reviewing the content with their small children.
On May 25 2011 03:25 multrak wrote: Fine, it's Teen. Doesn't change much considering the situation.
Perhaps I'll start a dildo review blog but ensure that I keep the language civil. After all, I don't want to offend any father's that may be reviewing the content with their small children.
Seems like everyone in this thread wants to give this guy parenting advice rather than respond to his question. Seems to me that if SC2 casting wants to appeal to a broader audience then 16-25 year old "men" it should maintain a professional manner. The Korean casters have always impressed me with their attire and demeanor on-screen.
People swear on the internet. If your seriously afraid to "expose" your kids to such language then you should keep them away from computers (and schools, and other people, and most TV).The internet being uncensored is way more important than everything being G-rated and kid safe. Honestly, I worry for your kids if they're incapable of understanding what inappropriate language is.
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
There is a mature label posted up front. It's on the outside of the box.
But that's to play the game. Not to watch it, By that logic if Football could only be played 18+ then you'd be saying people can't watch who are under 18 for example. I can't see any harm in a special symbol showing if the show is going to contain alot of cussing or anything for that matter. It's not hard to do and just helps people choosing what to watch.
If you go into the situation knowing the content being reviewed/watched is mature, you should expect mature content?
Amazing.
As someone else stated, It's a T label actually. But you're saying the content is "mature" and yet there is no complaint about that, The OP is saying about the actual casting/commentating being Mature and no warning when going to watch it. He's not saying anything about the game's ESRB rating at all.
Starcraft 2 has a T rating. By all means play the campaign if you want to experience that T rating. Blizzard isn't responsible for what people say online. Tournaments and casted events have absolutely nothing to do with a game's age rating.
On May 25 2011 03:25 multrak wrote: Fine, it's Teen. Doesn't change much considering the situation.
Perhaps I'll start a dildo review blog but ensure that I keep the language civil. After all, I don't want to offend any father's that may be reviewing the content with their small children.
Somehow I don't think maturity is something you're qualified to discuss.
On the subject of the, well subject. Swearing while as far as I'm concerned, irrelevant, doesn't add anything to a broadcast and usuall indicates a lack of diverse vocabulary on the part of the person using it. It doesn't have any place in broadcast sports, e or otherwise.
On May 25 2011 02:44 mordek wrote: I think the OP and a lot of others are quite pleased with how major tournaments are keeping things PG but I believe what he's asking for is a label so he can rest easy watching it with kids. If there's a mature label posted up front, he knows he should probably steer clear, otherwise with PG label he can have the whole family watch it.
This is precisely my desire. Thanks
To be realistic about it, it would certainly be a possibility for NASL and MLG but I don't see how you can expect TLO and 2gd casting a Swedish event to adhere to and follow some american labeling system. Sweden and Swedish organisations(used as an example since it's the culture I know) will never allow any form of cencorship, ever. You can't force them to label their stream inappropriate for kids since they don't believe it is.
I don't even have kids and I can't stand the sexual jokes, to me they are unfunny and immature, I would have maybe liked them 5-10 years ago that's just the way things go. Just another reason I don't enjoy NASL as much as GSL.
Also since some people are bringing it up as if it's some extreme: GSL already censors out the blood in their casts.
I would prefer tournaments to be more or less PG, I think GSL has the occasional use of the word "damn" and that's about it.
While I think you bring a very interesting point, that is very worthy of all the pages it has gotten, I agree with this:
On May 25 2011 01:16 Demonace34 wrote: Gretorp's sexual language should only be picked up by an adult minds filter of what is inappropriate. I doubt that at 12 or 8 years old I would of deciphered or did anything other than giggle when Gretorp keeps these sexual innuendos going.
I mean I'm all the time watching old movies/tv shows I watched when I was younger, and discovering a big difference in experience, where I missed or just didn't understand all these jokes that were a bit cryptic(and sometimes even not so cryptic). This has mostly to do with sexual jokes.
Violent stuff("x just got raped" etc) is however a different story, which I think commentators of big tournies should refrain from using(tbh I don't recall them using those kind of lines anyway), and I doubt it would make the viewing experience any worse for the rest of the viewers.
For streams... Well I mean it might be a good idea, but for the most part I think you'll just see everyone tagging themselves with "I use mature language", better than being "PG language" and getting all hell loose on them when they swear after loosing to an allin.
I 100% agree. There's no reason why casters need to make crude, offensive, or vulgar jokes either - it doesn't add anything to the cast. Tastosis manages to be funny without resorting to that, I don't see why casters for large tournaments like NASL/IPL/GSL etc need to use that kind of language. Nobody (except for the parents) would even notice if they just used clean language, so why not do it?
At the very least I would hope that some kind of rating system could be implemented. I find the hypocrisy in this thread a bit sickening, to be honest. On one hand, so many people on this forum are waving the "esports" flag around at every possible opportunity, doing their best to make "esports" big in the west, but when somebody comes around making a very minor and reasonable request (rating system) you all jump all over him. He didn't come here asking for parenting advice, that's his business. Your opinion of whether or not a 10 year old should hear crude sexual jokes and swearing is completely irrelevant, in fact. The fact is that the language IS a barrier of entry for some people, and that we might consider doing something about that.
If a parent wants to find appropriate content they could be a bit more proactive and screen content like VODs beforehand to make sure it fits their standards. It's better for parents to not have to rely on other people to do their job for them. This would solve the problem by itself and we wouldn't have to worry about "labeling" all content.
On the one hand there is a problem with swearing but on the other hand watching humans(in this case marines/marrauders etc) getting killed is cool? Beside this small logical error I find it a good thing what you do, watching SC2 with your kids, is something, that a lot more parents should do. Not because SC2 is such a fantastic game, its more about knowing what your kids watch in the TV/Internet etc. I think we can all agree, the swearing thing seems to be mainly a problem for americans. Even if I don't understand the argumentation behind it, I think the casters should be aware of the fact, the bigger the viewership gets the more should they think about what they are saying, because SC2/esports should be a thing everyone can enjoy. I don't think they should stop completely swearing but reduce it to a minimum.
Sidenote for Tasteless: Don't tell the audience Santa Claus doesn't exist
Why make it harder than it needs to be? Where is the good reason to use bad language on tournament casts?
Because it's like the only thing that makes SC2 fun to watch right now, like 2gd and dreamhack, it was the most awesome SC2 event ever because of his terrible jokes and language that you think should be censored. I'd possibly agree with you if SC2 was televised on national television and watched by a ton of people, like in SK. But it's really far from being at that point, it's still just a small niche audience (and that's not because of the language casters use), so right now there might be 100k nerds watching that loves the language, while 7 people wants it to be censored, the 100k should get priority. Would be pretty ironic if SC2 e-sports lost popularity simply because they started catering to people who doesn't watch it and tried to make it much more professional than it is.
(I think most of this discussion is also because many US people got sandy vaginas, not many countries are the same way and in most countries the kids that are old enough to understand english casting are old enough to hear those "bad words". If it ever gets televised in the US (or anywhere else where people want to censor it), then sure do it but international streams should remain like they are.)
@the OP's idea of slapping a T/M/whatever tag on official tournaments wouldn't be a bad idea though and wouldn't hurt anyone so I don't really see a problem with that at all.
On May 25 2011 03:31 Treemonkeys wrote:
Also since some people are bringing it up as if it's some extreme: GSL already censors out the blood in their casts..
GSL only does that because korean SC2 doesn't have red blood, smoking or profanity, it's not like it's a choice by GOMTV.
On May 25 2011 03:37 Fission wrote: I 100% agree. There's no reason why casters need to make crude, offensive, or vulgar jokes either - it doesn't add anything to the cast. Tastosis manages to be funny without resorting to that, I don't see why casters for large tournaments like NASL/IPL/GSL etc need to use that kind of language. Nobody (except for the parents) would even notice if they just used clean language, so why not do it?
At the very least I would hope that some kind of rating system could be implemented. I find the hypocrisy in this thread a bit sickening, to be honest. On one hand, so many people on this forum are waving the "esports" flag around at every possible opportunity, doing their best to make "esports" big in the west, but when somebody comes around making a very minor and reasonable request (rating system) you all jump all over him. He didn't come here asking for parenting advice, that's his business. Your opinion of whether or not a 10 year old should hear crude sexual jokes and swearing is completely irrelevant, in fact. The fact is that the language IS a barrier of entry for some people, and that we might consider doing something about that.
The point people are making is it is a 12+ game, and even under that rating it allows for infrequent strong language, violence etc. The OP is worried more about the language than addressing another issue which is the violence and killing aspect of Starcraft 2.
I would encourage anyone complaining about cursing in this thread to link/make a youtube video that shows all the slip ups of cursing and blatant sexual jokes (in which 12yo and younger could actually decipher) in major tournaments. Out of all the tournaments I've watched since last August, I can count maybe 5-10 occurrences (2 or 3 of them being Jinro interviews lol).
Why make it harder than it needs to be? Where is the good reason to use bad language on tournament casts?
Because it's like the only thing that makes SC2 fun to watch right now, like 2gd and dreamhack, it was the most awesome SC2 event ever because of his terrible jokes and language that you think should be censored. I'd possibly agree with you if SC2 was televised on national television and watched by a ton of people, like in SK. But it's really far from being at that point, it's still just a small niche audience (and that's not because of the language casters use), so right now there might be 100k nerds watching that loves the language, while 7 people wants it to be censored, the 100k should get priority. Would be pretty ironic if SC2 e-sports lost popularity simply because they started catering to people who doesn't watch it and tried to make it much more professional than it is.
(I think most of this discussion is also because many US people got sandy vaginas, not many countries are the same way and in most countries the kids that are old enough to understand english casting are old enough to hear those "bad words". If it ever gets televised in the US (or anywhere else where people want to censor it), then sure do it but international streams should remain like they are.)
@the OP's idea of slapping a T/M/whatever tag on official tournaments wouldn't be a bad idea though and wouldn't hurt anyone so I don't really see a problem with that at all..
On May 25 2011 03:25 multrak wrote: Fine, it's Teen. Doesn't change much considering the situation.
Perhaps I'll start a dildo review blog but ensure that I keep the language civil. After all, I don't want to offend any father's that may be reviewing the content with their small children.
Somehow I don't think maturity is something you're qualified to discuss.
On the subject of the, well subject. Swearing while as far as I'm concerned, irrelevant, doesn't add anything to a broadcast and usuall indicates a lack of diverse vocabulary on the part of the person using it. It doesn't have any place in broadcast sports, e or otherwise.
Pretty much my sentiments. If e-sports really wants to become professional, it needs to adopt the same practices of today's current sports broadcasts. I know when I watch ESPN I'm not going to hear foul language, and I can feel comfortable watching it in anyone's company.
I agree with the topic starter, and Chill's initial response. Personal player's streams and special programming (Day9 Dailies, SoTG, etc.) are free game, at the content creator's discretion. For tournaments however, I expect higher standards. If you want more viewers, if you want to portray professionalism, and if you want to support the growth of e-sports, it's in the tournaments best interest to appeal to ALL audiences.
On May 25 2011 03:39 Dhystopia wrote: If a parent wants to find appropriate content they could be a bit more proactive and screen content like VODs beforehand to make sure it fits their standards. It's better for parents to not have to rely on other people to do their job for them. This would solve the problem by itself and we wouldn't have to worry about "labeling" all content.
That's an unreasonable amount of time to ask of a parent... Content similar to SC2 casts and vods use the rating system. Heck, I think JP has a Parental Advisory label for SotG on his iTunes. It's not that difficult to assign at least a ballpark value to whether the content is mature.
There's plenty of people in my life that aren't in the scene but may be opposed to it if there's gratuitous swearing. I'd love to be able to show them streams or vods (Day9 for example) but a lot of times I decide not to.
Regardless, this is about asking for a labelling system that is standard for all organizations streaming StarCraft. Sounds perfectly reasonable, [i][even if you are opposed to the idea of censorship/i].
On May 25 2011 03:25 multrak wrote: Fine, it's Teen. Doesn't change much considering the situation.
Perhaps I'll start a dildo review blog but ensure that I keep the language civil. After all, I don't want to offend any father's that may be reviewing the content with their small children.
Somehow I don't think maturity is something you're qualified to discuss.
On the subject of the, well subject. Swearing while as far as I'm concerned, irrelevant, doesn't add anything to a broadcast and usuall indicates a lack of diverse vocabulary on the part of the person using it. It doesn't have any place in broadcast sports, e or otherwise.
Pretty much my sentiments. If e-sports really wants to become professional, it needs to adopt the same practices of today's current sports broadcasts. I know when I watch ESPN I'm not going to hear foul language, and I can feel comfortable watching it in anyone's company.
I agree with the topic starter, and Chill's initial response. Personal player's streams and special programming (Day9 Dailies, SoTG, etc.) are free game, at the content creator's discretion. For tournaments however, I expect higher standards. If you want more viewers, if you want to portray professionalism, and if you want to support the growth of e-sports, it's in the tournaments best interest to appeal to ALL audiences.
That's the american standard though, I can tell you that the swedish standard is completely different.
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
Should we sensor out the blood when a unit dies too? I'm a little lost as to why showing a young kid violence is better then letting him hear a curse word.
Just because there's one thing we can't control doesn't mean we shouldn't worry about what we can control.
But shouldn't we be consistent in our control? This makes no sense to me, if they're going to be seeing blood and gore, we should at least make it so they can't hear the occasional swear word? I don't think any organization has really gone overboard in this regard... I can't think of a single one, perhaps the NASL with it's When Cheese Fails bit but that was a one-time thing. Other than that the casting has been fine, there is an rare F-bomb here and there and I'm fine with that.
Why should we worry about the content of the cast, provided it's in line with the age expectation for the violence on screen? The casting should have a lower age expectation than the events on screen? That makes no sense to me, it's almost like shipping a violent movie but going to the MPAA and being like, "We took out the swear words, so it's a PG right?". If children are watching something that's age inappropriate in terms of violence, why regulate the commentary, currently all commentary for major events that I've seen matches the age expectation for the content on screen.
In all western countries besides USA nobody cares for your language. You can F*-Bomb (that word even doesnt exist for example in spanish) all day [and often see tits in TV too]... So is now every european a psychotic freak and a bad person?
Well no. Just relax US guys, just relax. Your kids wont die if they hear a dirty joke (which they probably just wont get) or hear F***. Really, i promise!
Why make it harder than it needs to be? Where is the good reason to use bad language on tournament casts?
Because it's like the only thing that makes SC2 fun to watch right now, like 2gd and dreamhack, it was the most awesome SC2 event ever because of his terrible jokes and language that you think should be censored. I'd possibly agree with you if SC2 was televised on national television and watched by a ton of people, like in SK. But it's really far from being at that point, it's still just a small niche audience (and that's not because of the language casters use), so right now there might be 100k nerds watching that loves the language, while 7 people wants it to be censored, the 100k should get priority. Would be pretty ironic if SC2 e-sports lost popularity simply because they started catering to people who doesn't watch it and tried to make it much more professional than it is.
(I think most of this discussion is also because many US people got sandy vaginas, not many countries are the same way and in most countries the kids that are old enough to understand english casting are old enough to hear those "bad words". If it ever gets televised in the US (or anywhere else where people want to censor it), then sure do it but international streams should remain like they are.)
@the OP's idea of slapping a T/M/whatever tag on official tournaments wouldn't be a bad idea though and wouldn't hurt anyone so I don't really see a problem with that at all..
Are you serious?
Certainly not the only thing but a lot of it. Anyway, how many times have people heard someone say fuck etc INTENTIONALLY? on a cast? Even in interviews it's been like less than 5 so I don't see how cursing is a problem, even for americans. But I guess it would be good to slap the same age restriction on tournaments as the game has. Kinda like telling not to microwave ur cat to dry it tbh though imo.
On May 25 2011 03:27 Offhand wrote: Tournaments and casted events have absolutely nothing to do with a game's age rating.
That's where you're wrong. The violence is still there.
So if anything you can expect the maturity level of a cast to increase. The game's violence should also be a larger concern than any bad word or innuendo. But some people live in a fantasy world where that isn't the case so I guess this is a pretty dumb argument.
At first I was thinking this is a difficult forum for this discussion because, in general, even the younger players who play starcraft 2 write pretty well (see Pokebunny). I was thinking it would be hard to get a feel for what perspective people were posting their opinion from...
What I learned from this thread actually has real applications. This thread makes it clear that maturity and empathy have a positive correlation. Thanks.
i still think theres a huge difference in understanding of PG and bad words from US to Europe so its still hard overall even 5 year old guys say "fuck u" not knowing what it means and not even can speak english ^^ i still think usa thinks to much about it (same like seeing boobs etc and its 18years+ and in europe its free for 6+ ^^)
1) The ESRB does not rate the online experience of a game. The T rating is irrelevant and applies to the singleplayer component only. Who is to say why? Maybe it's the fact that the single-player deals with crass treachery, genocide, the slaughter of innocent civilians and god knows what else that lead to that rating?
2) To the people claiming his kids shouldn't be watching Starcraft. Are you serious? Please don't tell me you're the same people wanting eSports to grow. Of course kids should be watching sports, ideally, eSports would be a family and friends event just like any real sport. It's some way off, that's for sure, but isn't that the goal?
3) To a lot of people, fantasy make-believe violence is less of a concern than swearing. I can see their point, kids play with toy guns and pretend to kill each other all the time, from the age of toddlers. What is the difference?
While I dislike the notion of having casters curb their language, I would welcome an initiative, where casters are given a general rating, so that you know what to expect when you tune into a cast. Some listing of a caster, what language level he generally uses and how likely it is that he exceeds his normal level.
On May 25 2011 03:56 Jayrod wrote: At first I was thinking this is a difficult forum for this discussion because, in general, even the younger players who play starcraft 2 write pretty well (see Pokebunny). I was thinking it would be hard to get a feel for what perspective people were posting their opinion from...
What I learned from this thread actually has real applications. This thread makes it clear that maturity and empathy have a positive correlation. Thanks.
I think it's more what YOU deem maturity would be all the people who agree with you and have the same point of view, whether or not that view is correct, and, therefore, are more like to have empathy for your situation, because they agree with you.
On May 25 2011 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few things to consider.
1) It was already pointed out, that the rating includes the graphic violence that is there even in MP, so the rating can't get any lower than that.
2) If I'm a fan of Mixed martial arts. Should I tell my kids to watch that? Is the growth really that important? Are you serious?
3) The difference is, that you can actually see people die in horrible ways as they scream in Starcraft? How can you even ask that question?
You could even use the same argument for movies and TV shows. It's obviously only made-up thing, who would believe that right? Yet, we have ratings for that, ratings, that some parents actually follow...
Being from Ireland I really have no idea what the fuss about using certain words is about. Nor do i understand why certain words are taken to be rude or offensive when not used in an offensive way. That being said, everyone wants the best for their kids, so if that's important to you i whole-heartedly agree there should be some sort of notification on major tournaments and shows if there is going to be swearing. A PG or explicit slide for a few seconds before the show harms nobody.
Mostly yes but alright not the only thing (some exceptional games could still be pretty cool even without any casting) , but I think I'd be bored out of my mind watching SC2 if the casters couldn't talk shit during slow games/downtime and I think the casters should have some freedom and not always having to worry about dropping a bomb. To me Dreamhack Invitational was the best event ever, not because it had more amazing games than other tournaments but simply because of the host. He alone made that event 10000 times more fun to watch than your average *any-tournament* match.
It's a game about intergalactic war and you have a problem with swearing? More proof that as long as "offensive" language and sexual innuendo/situations are present, American parents couldn't care less about violence. Hooray for priorities.
On May 25 2011 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few things to consider.
1) The ESRB does not rate the online experience of a game. The T rating is irrelevant and applies to the singleplayer component only. Who is to say why? Maybe it's the fact that the single-player deals with crass treachery, genocide, the slaughter of innocent civilians and god knows what else that lead to that rating?
2) To the people claiming his kids shouldn't be watching Starcraft. Are you serious? Please don't tell me you're the same people wanting eSports to grow. Of course kids should be watching sports, ideally, eSports would be a family and friends event just like any real sport. It's some way off, that's for sure, but isn't that the goal?
3) To a lot of people, fantasy make-believe violence is less of a concern than swearing. I can see their point, kids play with toy guns and pretend to kill each other all the time, from the age of toddlers. What is the difference?
1) I highly doubt the multiplayer experience would get a lower rating. The not rated tag would probably be in there for all the people cursing at you after a game they lose in.
2) But where is the cut off point to when kids shouldn't watch two armies killing each other, with units on screen dying, etc?
Which words are completely off the table? What if a caster says, that game was fucking amazing? Is that different than a caster using fuck as two people having sexual intercourse? Personally it is the meaning behind the word that matters. Fuck being used for excitement and positive connotations is totally different from using it sexually or angry fits. (I'm arguing a George Carlin point here)
Another example of how I'm trying to convey the differences:
3) I don't know or have the statistics, but I think saying by saying "alot of people" you mean U.S. media outlets/parents where sexuality and violence is less of a problem than bad words. The problem with words is that people give them so much more meaning than they actually deserve. This has been reinforced for generations in the U.S. and as long as the words are "bad" and scary they will be looked down upon.
I am not saying that fuck, shit, and god damnit every other sentence is needed, but I hate saying these things are all off limits.
In my mind there are different types of casts and they should be expected to maintain different standards of language. Something like SOTG (which the OP referenced) should continue as is, at the end of the day the show started out as a bunch of fans talking about a game they love, they stand by the fact that if you listen then they will offend you at some point That's what the show is and that's what makes it great.
On the other hand you have sponsored shows and tournament casts which should be using cleaner language. If you are relying on a sponsor to make your tournament/show happen then they will most likely hold the caster accountable for the language used, which may or may not affect future sponsorships.
As for specific words, really the only one that makes me cringe every time I hear it is rape. I realise that casting involves a massive amount of adlibbing, but if the tournament casts can be kept clean then there's a good chance that individual casters will get into the habit of not swearing while they are on a cast whether its a tournament cast or a podcast.
I think in this day and age it would be wiser to teach your kids not to use bad language instead of trying to block it out. No matter what they are going to be exposed to it.
On May 25 2011 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few things to consider.
1) The ESRB does not rate the online experience of a game. The T rating is irrelevant and applies to the singleplayer component only. Who is to say why? Maybe it's the fact that the single-player deals with crass treachery, genocide, the slaughter of innocent civilians and god knows what else that lead to that rating?
2) To the people claiming his kids shouldn't be watching Starcraft. Are you serious? Please don't tell me you're the same people wanting eSports to grow. Of course kids should be watching sports, ideally, eSports would be a family and friends event just like any real sport. It's some way off, that's for sure, but isn't that the goal?
3) To a lot of people, fantasy make-believe violence is less of a concern than swearing. I can see their point, kids play with toy guns and pretend to kill each other all the time, from the age of toddlers. What is the difference?
The violence in Starcraft 2 is pretty different from pretending to kill each other with make believe guns, this is largely a cultural thing in my opinion... But I don't know for sure, it just seems bloody inconsistent.
I was actually surprised the first time I noticed how gory it is when a zealot slices a marine or marauder in half, when a colossus burns a group of marines alive and they writhe in pain as they're melded by the corrosive acid of the roach. The minimum age expectation of the T-rating carries over in terms of violence at the very least, what it comes down to is people who are okay with the violence in the game being seen by their kids, but not okay with the nature of some casts, which are for all major events so far, entirely age equivalent to the violence portrayed on screen.
It's essentially like going into a PG-13 movie, and then voicing a complaint about the nature of the film and it's slightly mature themes outside of the violence. Some people are okay with their kids viewing violence, but rating systems aren't exclusive in this sense, if something contains violence that would generally be considered inappropriate for a younger audience, then it gets rated as such regardless of whether it has crass language or not.
So, could we have a label system that states a cast may contain some mature language, sure, slap it onto every major event, no event so far has exceeded this threshold in my opinion, I can't think of a single one, not the NASL(minus the Cheese Fails thing), TSL, MLG or GSL among numerous others.
The language is generally age equivalent to the content seen on screen in my opinion, I don't see an issue except for in regards to parents who are okay with their kids being exposed to certain mature content, but not to other mature content, in that case, slap on a label, but the game itself will visually still be roughly 12+ in terms of a general guideline, the content of casts so far has matches this expectation.
On May 25 2011 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few things to consider.
1) It was already pointed out, that the rating includes the graphic violence that is there even in MP, so the rating can't get any lower than that.
2) If I'm a fan of Mixed martial arts. Should I tell my kids to watch that? Is the growth really that important? Are you serious?
3) The difference is, that you can actually see people die in horrible ways as they scream in Starcraft? How can you even ask that question?
You could even use the same argument for movies and TV shows. It's obviously only made-up thing, who would believe that right? Yet, we have ratings for that, ratings, that some parents actually follow...
No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
When I watch state of the game I understand people will swear, you are listening in on SC2 related banter. When I watch GSL, I would be surprised to hear a peep out of anyone. As much I dislike the OP's attitude to swearing (I swear like its going out of fashion and I like to think I turned out okay.), I understand that there are people that want clean versions, but I'm not sure there is enough demand to have clean versions of SOTG e.g.
On May 25 2011 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few things to consider.
1) It was already pointed out, that the rating includes the graphic violence that is there even in MP, so the rating can't get any lower than that.
2) If I'm a fan of Mixed martial arts. Should I tell my kids to watch that? Is the growth really that important? Are you serious?
3) The difference is, that you can actually see people die in horrible ways as they scream in Starcraft? How can you even ask that question?
You could even use the same argument for movies and TV shows. It's obviously only made-up thing, who would believe that right? Yet, we have ratings for that, ratings, that some parents actually follow...
No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
They don't rate that because it's based around player interaction, that doesn't change the base-line content of the game, which they've already rated... The online version still contains all the dismemberment, melting, exploding, incinerating that the offline version contains.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here.
The change is not that small if we are talking about live events. You can't just review it and put a sticker on it, because you have to review it before it occurs. That means, either you use the highest rating available (I believe that's R in the USA) or you tell your casters how to talk. And some people (including myself) don't like the latter.
I'm pretty sure that the majority of casts (or at least the highest level ones) are played with reduced violence enabled, so using the argument that the violence is there so the swearing should be there too doesn't really make all that much sense. I personally don't like to hear swearing in casts and really appreciate casters that can still keep things interesting and entertaining (even in the games that would be less entertaining otherwise) without having to resort to swearing or making sexual jokes and whatnot, which is one reason I really enjoy listening to Tasteless and Artosis. I don't understand how having a "clean" cast makes it more stale to some people; to me THAT shows a lack of maturity.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here.
The change is not that small if we are talking about live events. You can't just review it and put a sticker on it, because you have to review it before it occurs. That means, either you use the highest rating available (I believe that's R in the USA) or you tell your casters how to talk. And some people (including myself) don't like the latter.
Yeah I understand your perspective and I don't think casters should be told how to talk, but with live events it wont really be a change of a cast if in some situations you told the casters to try and refrain from using strong language, sure it happens time to time on air because that's just a general mishap that happens in any event. However, it is not hard to try and keep the language to a minimum during a cast, and the OP is not asking/forcing any sort of all PG-13 action, he would just like to be given a heads-up if there could be some language he would not like his siblings to hear.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear that.
You can't obviously rate the MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about.
So... you don't give your sons access to the internet, either? Only with supervision? I mean we all know what the internet is for (and full of).
I don't think the casts are especially 'mature' or anything. Every rap song on the radio is raunchier than all the SC2 casts I've seen so far. Furthermore, not sure how technically advanced your sons are, but back when I was 12, let's just say my friends and I knew our way around the net.
The 8 year old... not sure, depends on his development, but I doubt he'd pick up anything more disturbing than what can be picked up by listening to aforementioned rap songs. But of course if you really want to try to shelter them from bad words like "shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker motherfucker and tits" (TM), you can always just mute the sound and commentate for the kids.
On May 25 2011 03:56 Jayrod wrote: At first I was thinking this is a difficult forum for this discussion because, in general, even the younger players who play starcraft 2 write pretty well (see Pokebunny). I was thinking it would be hard to get a feel for what perspective people were posting their opinion from...
What I learned from this thread actually has real applications. This thread makes it clear that maturity and empathy have a positive correlation. Thanks.
I think it's more what YOU deem maturity would be all the people who agree with you and have the same point of view, whether or not that view is correct, and, therefore, are more like to have empathy for your situation, because they agree with you.
How can you even argue the point that it being aware of your general impact on others signifies a level a maturity? I wasn't arguing an opinion at all... I was making a statement of fact that this thread brought to light. I am unenthusiastic about the subject, but I tend to agree that the idea should be to appeal to the largest body of people and that having less cursing would probably work towards that.
I never once said or assumed im more mature than the next person, only made an observation that more mature viewpoints tend to be able to put themselves in the shoes of the opposing side.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here.
The change is not that small if we are talking about live events. You can't just review it and put a sticker on it, because you have to review it before it occurs. That means, either you use the highest rating available (I believe that's R in the USA) or you tell your casters how to talk. And some people (including myself) don't like the latter.
Yeah I understand your perspective and I don't think casters should be told how to talk, but with live events it wont really be a change of a cast if in some situations you told the casters to try and refrain from using strong language, sure it happens time to time on air because that's just a general mishap that happens in any event. However, it is not hard to try and keep the language to a minimum during a cast, and the OP is not asking/forcing any sort of all PG-13 action, he would just like to be given a heads-up if there could be some language he would not like his siblings to hear.
The thing is, currently I can't think if a single major cast(or any event) where the PG-13 threshold has been exceeded, so that pretty much seems like the standard for all casts. The violence you're seeing matches that age suggestion, and the content of the casts is age appropriate.
Even F-Bombs are so few and far between(generally like 1-2 per cast if ever) that it still falls under the general PG-13 expectation.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear about that.
You can't obviously rate a MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about.
But is he really asking too much? TV and even trailers have warnings about mature themes in a show or even in a small trailer, he is just asking for a similar thing here.
People keep raising the point behind the rating, but there really is nothing to talk about with it. Parents have enough sense to decide whether they want their kids to see/hear certain things. If the parents are fine with some features inside of the game such as units dieing, why should that automatically force them to accept mature language on a stream?
I don't believe you can learn some bad language from casters, most kids pick up on way worse phrases in schools and from their friends. The obsession with "fuck" is a bit silly IMO
On May 25 2011 02:16 k!llua wrote: And someone should ban the idiot that suggested the OP simply stop watching the game with his children. That's really going to help things move forward, hey?
Let's start playing Call of Duty with children, that will surely help...because the game seriously need more acceptance and this will get things moving.
Think before you post.
He's not playing Call of Duty, he (and his children) are playing Starcraft 2. Don't bring in examples that have nothing to do with the current discussion.
There's nothing wrong with promoting eSports at an early age; it's not the acceptance that needs building, but the groundswell of support for the strength of the GSL/team leagues to grow into something like the OSL/MSL so we can continue to enjoy competitive gaming at a top level for years to come.
OP makes a simple request that seems reasonable, but at the same time E-sports is growing and with the growth comes new responsibilities such as no swearing during broadcasts. But E-sports isnt at that level yet and some matches can be super dry for the first 5 minutes so I think its necessary for the little jokes and such.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear about that.
You can't obviously rate a MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about.
But is he really asking too much? TV and even trailers have warnings about mature themes in a show or even in a small trailer, he is just asking for a similar thing here.
People keep raising the point behind the rating, but there really is nothing to talk about with it. Parents have enough sense to decide whether they want their kids to see/hear certain things. If the parents are fine with some features inside of the game such as units dieing, why should that automatically force them to accept mature language on a stream?
Every major cast is hovering around the same threshold right now though, the GSL, NASL, TSL, MLG even to an extent are all roughly around PG-13 in terms of the content of their casting, which is age-appropriate in regards to violence already contained in the game. If you're okay with your child seeing the violence in the game but not okay with age-equivalent casting then just auto-assume that these events will have that issue, because they all do. I can't think of one that exceeds that threshold, and I can't think of one that is consistently below it, it varies from day to day but it is always around that same general region, the content will be age-appropriate in regards to the rating of the game.
On May 25 2011 04:17 Kerotan wrote: The biggest issue is the need to be consistent.
When I watch state of the game I understand people will swear, you are listening in on SC2 related banter. When I watch GSL, I would be surprised to hear a peep out of anyone. As much I dislike the OP's attitude to swearing (I swear like its going out of fashion and I like to think I turned out okay.), I understand that there are people that want clean versions, but I'm not sure there is enough demand to have clean versions of SOTG e.g.
I think this is the important point as well. Major events should be broadcast according to industry standards for other sports.
But shows like SotG and TLAttack should be allowed to play to their own standard, as long as they're upfront about what that standard is (which they are).
On May 25 2011 04:17 Kerotan wrote: The biggest issue is the need to be consistent.
When I watch state of the game I understand people will swear, you are listening in on SC2 related banter. When I watch GSL, I would be surprised to hear a peep out of anyone. As much I dislike the OP's attitude to swearing (I swear like its going out of fashion and I like to think I turned out okay.), I understand that there are people that want clean versions, but I'm not sure there is enough demand to have clean versions of SOTG e.g.
I think this is the important point as well. Major events should be broadcast according to industry standards for other sports.
But shows like SotG and TLAttack should be allowed to play to their own standard, as long as they're upfront about what that standard is (which they are).
But it's not exactly like other sports because of the nature of the game, the nature of the content you're already seeing on screen. No event has exceeded this, I can't think of a single offense that would require casters being told to tone it down, or players being told to tone it down aside from the stuff that's obviously been stated to be a little over the top such as state of the game. It's all remained around PG-13, which is equivalent to the level of violence on screen.
On May 25 2011 04:26 Firesilver wrote: But is he really asking too much? TV and even trailers have warnings about mature themes in a show or even in a small trailer, he is just asking for a similar thing here.
People keep raising the point behind the rating, but there really is nothing to talk about with it. Parents have enough sense to decide whether they want their kids to see/hear certain things. If the parents are fine with some features inside of the game such as units dieing, why should that automatically force them to accept mature language on a stream?
TV and trailers have it, because someone set a standard. Similar standards concerning games are set pretty much all around the world.
If you're the one setting your own standards and everyone can have a different opinion on this topic, then what exactly should the companies do?
What about live coverage? If you set the rating before, it means censorship. And what if they adopt our idea behind the SP rating transferring to MP? Then everything Starcraft related will be rated T anyways.
On May 25 2011 04:29 k!llua wrote: He's not playing Call of Duty, he (and his children) are playing Starcraft 2. Don't bring in examples that have nothing to do with the current discussion.
It has plenty to do with this. Both games are not suited for kids that are 12 and 8 years of age according to the standards.
If I'm playing something like that and kids come around, I quit the game. You would do the same, if there was something "bad" on TV, wouldn't you? So why should Starcraft be any different?
Yeah I definitely agree that casters need to be more conscience of ratings, even though I don't personally like them.
However I would point out that there are already ways to filter content. Both youtube and justin.tv channels can flag their content as explicit, which forces a confirmation page unless you login. As long as you can deal with the inconvenience of not logging in, it does a pretty good job of filtering content.
I don't think the NASL is adult content. The problem with NASL is that when Gretorp unintentionally makes a sexual innuendo both him and Geoff giggle and call attention to it. If they ignored it and moved on like most professional broadcasters it wouldn't be a problem. I mean seriously, you can turn any sport broadcast into a chain of innuendos if you put effort into it.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear about that.
You can't obviously rate a MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about.
But is he really asking too much? TV and even trailers have warnings about mature themes in a show or even in a small trailer, he is just asking for a similar thing here.
People keep raising the point behind the rating, but there really is nothing to talk about with it. Parents have enough sense to decide whether they want their kids to see/hear certain things. If the parents are fine with some features inside of the game such as units dieing, why should that automatically force them to accept mature language on a stream?
Every major cast is hovering around the same threshold right now though, the GSL, NASL, TSL, MLG even to an extent are all roughly around PG-13 in terms of the content of their casting, which is age-appropriate in regards to violence already contained in the game. If you're okay with your child seeing the violence in the game but not okay with age-equivalent casting then just auto-assume that these events will have that issue, because they all do. I can't think of one that exceeds that threshold, and I can't think of one that is consistently below it, it varies from day to day but it is always around that same general region, the content will be age-appropriate in regards to the rating of the game.
I think the assertion that simulated violence and vulgar diction go together hand in hand is a faulty one.
Regardless, the discussion and question posed here is about the feasibility and application of casting-centric labels... to which the relationship between game rating and presentation tone is only tangentially related. ;o
I'd like to raise the point that - if your kids never hear any swearing, sexual innuendo, and other more adult-oriented humor until someone tells them in school they will be worse off than having heard it with their parents, and being able to have someone put it into context. Not all children are as unreceptive and stupid as some people may think, explaining to them the content of a more adult-related show, movie, game, etc. oftentimes sinks in more than it may be apparent.
On May 25 2011 04:52 kNightLite wrote: Yeah I definitely agree that casters need to be more conscience of ratings, even though I don't personally like them.
However I would point out that there are already ways to filter content. Both youtube and justin.tv channels can flag their content as explicit, which forces a confirmation page unless you login. As long as you can deal with the inconvenience of not logging in, it does a pretty good job of filtering content.
I don't think the NASL is adult content. The problem with NASL is that when Gretorp unintentionally makes a sexual innuendo both him and Geoff giggle and call attention to it. If they ignored it and moved on like most professional broadcasters it wouldn't be a problem. I mean seriously, you can turn any sport broadcast into a chain of innuendos if you put effort into it.
The NASL's content is age-equivalent to the content of the game though(like every other event), I have no problem with the innuendos, the F-bomb happens like once or twice a cast at most. The game is essentially the equivalent of PG-13, the content you see on screen matches that, the casts generally stay around that and never exceed that.
I think official tournaments like MLG, NASL, IPL, GSL, ect, should be casted using appropriate language if esports is going to progress...It should be natural really.
On the other hand, podcasts like SOTG and so on can use the language they want since they are trying to appeal to an audience of their choosing.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear about that.
You can't obviously rate a MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about.
But is he really asking too much? TV and even trailers have warnings about mature themes in a show or even in a small trailer, he is just asking for a similar thing here.
People keep raising the point behind the rating, but there really is nothing to talk about with it. Parents have enough sense to decide whether they want their kids to see/hear certain things. If the parents are fine with some features inside of the game such as units dieing, why should that automatically force them to accept mature language on a stream?
Every major cast is hovering around the same threshold right now though, the GSL, NASL, TSL, MLG even to an extent are all roughly around PG-13 in terms of the content of their casting, which is age-appropriate in regards to violence already contained in the game. If you're okay with your child seeing the violence in the game but not okay with age-equivalent casting then just auto-assume that these events will have that issue, because they all do. I can't think of one that exceeds that threshold, and I can't think of one that is consistently below it, it varies from day to day but it is always around that same general region, the content will be age-appropriate in regards to the rating of the game.
I think the assertion that simulated violence and vulgar diction go together hand in hand is a faulty one.
Regardless, the discussion and question posed here is about the feasibility and application of casting-centric labels... to which the relationship between game rating and presentation tone is only tangentially related. ;o
I've already said, I'm fine with a label but considering these events are live, I wouldn't want to have to tell the players to behave a different way since the way they currently behave is consistent with what would be a PG-13 rating, which is what the violent content of the game would receive.
So, in that sense it's safe to say that every major cast is basically a T: for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes. in the US.
there are more important things to care about than the usage of F-words on starcraft II streams for the good of your children, especially in your society. unless they are secretly deaf, they know these words, no doubt about it. they go to school everyday and probably hear their friends swearing if they don't do it themselves already, but you know it's not because they say such words that you have to wash their mouth with soap. you should consider the capacity of children to actually learn and understand things : if they understand why they should not repeat (in your opinion) such words, then they can hear these without your having to care about it, if they do not, then blocking it will only create the anti-effect and cause them to use these words more when they grow up. in both cases, blocking it is unrealistic and quite uncharacteristic for a parent that shows starcraft to his kids. sure you should not watch the more agressive shows because they would not actual grasp the irony in most of the things that are said with for example sexual vocabulary. on a more positive note, you should not understimate the ability of children to make the difference between "good" and "bad", me and my brother grew up playing GTA and Driver on playstation and neither of us is a criminal yet, nor we use agressive language all that often, and i believe using a fiction character to kill cops and cut people's heads off on the street 'for fun' is worse than listening to incontrol saying "fuck". just my personal opinion though, you raise your children the way you want.
On May 25 2011 04:58 Steel wrote: I think official tournaments like MLG, NASL, IPL, GSL, ect, should be casted using appropriate language if esports is going to progress...It should be natural really.
On the other hand, podcasts like SOTG and so on can use the language they want since they are trying to appeal to an audience of their choosing.
The content of the game is PG-13, language should be allowed to match that, its quite simple really. I understand that some parents want to shelter their children from certain things but the fact of the matter is that this game is NOT intended for an audience below the age of 13. Forcing the casters to cater to an audience below this age would be unnecessarily cumbersome for production given the content of the game itself, not to mention alienate the target audience of the game itself (13 to 30).
Do you know if there are any legal repercussions possible, if they say their stream is <rating> and a caster will slip up during a cast? With googling I only found an article from 2006 so I doubt it's useful.
On May 25 2011 04:58 Steel wrote: I think official tournaments like MLG, NASL, IPL, GSL, ect, should be casted using appropriate language if esports is going to progress...It should be natural really.
On the other hand, podcasts like SOTG and so on can use the language they want since they are trying to appeal to an audience of their choosing.
The content of the game is PG-13, language should be allowed to match that, its quite simple really. I understand that some parents want to shelter their children from certain things but the fact of the matter is that this game is NOT intended for an audience below the age of 13. Forcing the casters to cater to an audience below this age would be unnecessarily cumbersome for production given the content of the game itself, not to mention alienate the target audience of the game itself (13 to 30).
Is having a little tag somewhere that says that a particular cast is going to be "rated M for mature" going to alienate you? What bout missing out on Gretorps jokes about fudge packing (euphemism for anal sex) in the nasl matches a couple days ago? Is that what makes starcraft 2 fun to watch? I'm pretty sure the casters can find ways to be entertaining that are acceptable to a wider audience.
Do you know if there are any legal repercussions possible, if they say their stream is <rating> and a caster will slip up during a cast? With googling I only found an article from 2006 so I doubt it's useful.
I don't, but it's kind of extreme to say that they should suffer legal repercussions if they do accidentally slip up? I don't think anyone is calling for there to be legal action forcing streams to enforce a PG-13 rating, but rather just try to stick to it, like I stated earlier; sometimes cussing does happen on accident and that's just how life is, people make mistakes.
Also the article won't load for me for some reason.
On May 25 2011 04:58 Steel wrote: I think official tournaments like MLG, NASL, IPL, GSL, ect, should be casted using appropriate language if esports is going to progress...It should be natural really.
On the other hand, podcasts like SOTG and so on can use the language they want since they are trying to appeal to an audience of their choosing.
The content of the game is PG-13, language should be allowed to match that, its quite simple really. I understand that some parents want to shelter their children from certain things but the fact of the matter is that this game is NOT intended for an audience below the age of 13. Forcing the casters to cater to an audience below this age would be unnecessarily cumbersome for production given the content of the game itself, not to mention alienate the target audience of the game itself (13 to 30).
Is having a little tag somewhere that says that a particular cast is going to be "rated M for mature" going to alienate you? What bout missing out on Gretorps jokes about fudge packing (euphemism for anal sex) in the nasl matches a couple days ago? Is that what makes starcraft 2 fun to watch? I'm pretty sure the casters can find ways to be entertaining that are acceptable to a wider audience.
No one is going to understand that unless they already know what it means... It doesn't affect the younger audiences that much.
As for a tag, for most events, it's a live cast, so it'd be kinda tough, just assume it'll be age equivalent to the content of the game, as I stated earlier... No cast has gone beyond this, no cast has gone too far below this simply because of the nature of the game.
On May 25 2011 05:20 Molkovien wrote: Everything else aside, I honestly do not think f-bombs and the term rape ever add anything to the game.
That does not mean we can't have mature content, but random swearing just, in my opinion, seems juvenile.
F-bombs are super rare and rape is pretty taboo anyways...
F-bombs are fine to me, as long as they are few and far between, I mean honestly, I can't imagine myself bursting out laughing if Strelok hadn't opened his opening interview question with, "You know... it was like 'What the fuck?'".
As many have stated before, I think consistency is the key. The OP clearly stated that he'd just mute the cast if the language was crude - no harm done and everyone's happy. I'd hate to see stones being thrown for a slip up though.
Off topic: As for the general idea that clean language is a vital part of professionalism and directly reflects the maturity of the speaker, I can't disagree more. While the notion is generally accepted, it is naught but elitism in my eyes.
Cussing can be hilarious. The chill vs combatEX grudge match is a prime example of comedy :>
Off off topic: Not to bash on anyone's parenting, but kids usually know more than the parents expect them to. Language and sexual references (obvious ones) are probably closer to a child than most would assume at an adult age. Protecting your kids is admirable but often overdone
On May 25 2011 03:39 Dhystopia wrote: If a parent wants to find appropriate content they could be a bit more proactive and screen content like VODs beforehand to make sure it fits their standards. It's better for parents to not have to rely on other people to do their job for them. This would solve the problem by itself and we wouldn't have to worry about "labeling" all content.
Maybe in some ideal world, but that is not how parents handle content in our society - almost everything is rated. It's not going to help grow the viewership if parents who care about this have to watch everything twice. The tournaments are already pretty much PG or PG-13, so it would just be a matter of setting an expectation and sticking to it. Very easy to label it.
It seems that I need to move to Sweden because my reaction to "curse" words is nothing like most Americans. Words mean only what you want them to mean, if you stop making a big deal of them kids won't either. It wouldn't be so taboo (yet appealing) for a kid to say fuck if people didn't blow it out of proportion. I can see the argument for limiting use of the word rape, as it can easily cause discomfort for a victim, but I really wish people would stop caring about fuck etc. and care about something that is actually important.
On May 25 2011 03:39 Dhystopia wrote: If a parent wants to find appropriate content they could be a bit more proactive and screen content like VODs beforehand to make sure it fits their standards. It's better for parents to not have to rely on other people to do their job for them. This would solve the problem by itself and we wouldn't have to worry about "labeling" all content.
Maybe in some ideal world, but that is not how parents handle content in our society - almost everything is rated. It's not going to help grow the viewership if parents who care about this have to watch everything twice. The tournaments are already pretty much PG or PG-13, so it would just be a matter of setting an expectation and sticking to it. Very easy to label it.
They are pretty consistent though, they stay around the PG-13 mark and never really go above that...
If you want a label, I guess... why not...
I'd recommend just look at the back of the Starcraft 2 box, interestingly enough it's pretty representative of the level of casting of most all events...
** 13+ - Blood and Gore - Language - Suggestive Themes - Violence
On May 25 2011 05:38 Moderas wrote: It seems that I need to move to Sweden because my reaction to "curse" words is nothing like most Americans. Words mean only what you want them to mean, if you stop making a big deal of them kids won't either. It wouldn't be so taboo (yet appealing) for a kid to say fuck if people didn't blow it out of proportion. I can see the argument for limiting use of the word rape, as it can easily cause discomfort for a victim, but I really wish people would stop caring about fuck etc. and care about something that is actually important.
come on now... I don't understand this ...
I dont know anyone that is offended by cussing unless it is a intentionally offensive word like racials slurs etc.
people in this thread are acting like Americans dont cuss... wtf thats not true at all
On May 25 2011 05:20 Molkovien wrote: Everything else aside, I honestly do not think f-bombs and the term rape ever add anything to the game.
That does not mean we can't have mature content, but random swearing just, in my opinion, seems juvenile.
F-bombs are super rare and rape is pretty taboo anyways...
F-bombs are fine to me, as long as they are few and far between, I mean honestly, I can't imagine myself bursting out laughing if Strelok hadn't opened his opening interview question with, "You know... it was like 'What the fuck?'".
Well, the frequency of 'rape' did decline from beta till now, I'll give you that much. I don't think it's much of a problem, though.
No censorship. If you don't want your kids to use the words, explain it to them. You have them watch hundreds of people/aliens/creatures get killed but don't appreciate harsh language?
On May 25 2011 05:43 Psychobabas wrote: I guarantee you, your 12 year old has heard a lot worse at school.
In my opinion, it's not a big deal.
This is very true. I remember 6 years ago cussing was quite common and I went to a private parochial school where consequences for language misconduct were strictly enforced.
Someone brought up the idea of rating casters. While this might work, it also has some pitfalls.
As an example, DJ Wheat and Incontrol both cast for various tournaments. In TSL and NASL each of them were pretty clean IMO. Then I turn on the EG Master's Cup the other night (by myself) and hear several swear words from each of them. In this case, the casters apparently are tailoring their language to the standards set for the tournament. So I'm assuming those standards exist in some form ranging from "don't say these words" to "say whatever you want". I'd like a way to see those guidelines just like I can see the tournament format, prize pool, rules, etc.
I know MLG has some standards as well because last year at MLG Dallas after a day of casting I heard Day9 say "I haven't been able to swear all day".
First let me say, that I'm not a fan of Gretorps weird and inapproriate jokes, but me not being American and live by your standards, what worries me is how afraid people are of your 12-year-old kid hearing the word 'fuck' or something similar.
An example could easily be Tastosis. I don't think they are inapproriate at all and most times they are often bringing very kid-friendly jokes to the table, but they overstep boundaries as well. But that just makes it more fun to some extent, if you ask me.
I agree with this. Your children are going to hear those big scary 'bad words' whether you like it or not. I definitely respect your wishes and you should parent however you think is best.
Honestly I'm not sure how to resolve your issue. I mean, you already know which casts are normally 'PG'. The only way to get what you want, is for casters/organizations to essentially sign a document saying that they won't ever slip out a cuss?
I just don't really understand what is so horrible about how you do things now. You seem deeply afraid of the effects a single 'F-bomb' can have on your children, and all I can say is that they will be fine. From what you have said, you have been able to mute the cuss word sufficiently. It kind of boggles my mind how you can be so afraid of a SINGLE f-bomb dropping. You act as if they don't sneak in naughty TV when you aren't looking(or they are at a friend's house) or cuss to their friends all day at school. They will hear it from plenty of other sources... So is them hearing one single slip from a SC2 stream really worth all of the effort just to... POSSIBLY prevent a single F-bomb slipping from a particular commentators mouth?
It sure doesn't seem like it to me. My parents educated me on what the bad words are and what not to say in public and I listened. I also watched all kind of cussing on TV and movies and it never hurt me in any way.
It just seems like your child is going to hear cussing in real life many more times/week than he will hear it from a SC2 cast, especially when you already know which casters rarely cuss.
I don't really see the problem with a little swearing here and there, maybe that is because us in Scandinavia are a little more liberal than americans. But seriously though, I have watched a lot of streams and I can't say I can point out any of them and say they wouldnt be suitable for a 12 yr old.
I haven't gone through all thirteen pages of this thread, but Starcraft 2 has a T rating, so the language used by the commentators should at minimum coincide with this rating. There isn't a place to complain if your child is under the age suggested to play the game in the first place. If the commentators do plan on using adult language, there should be some sort of warning for those who are worried about those types of things.
On May 25 2011 01:34 mahrgell wrote: StarCraft2 is depending on country for ppl 12+ to 16+ (in some countries the uncensored version is 18+)
Why does the language on a stream about 12+ content need to be adjusted for 8 years old?
Many parents don't want their 12 year olds being exposed to f-bombs either.
America is a bit weird in this respect - adults swear all the time, but the "but not in front of the kids!!" attitude is extremely prevalent, even from parents who swear a lot themselves outside of their kids' presence.
The OP is an example of the audience that esports needs to reach out to in order to achieve the mainstream appeal of conventional sports. Within esport communities there's this awful tendency (perhaps something to do with the young base) to demand broad acceptance without compromise. This sort of thing is simply not realistic, and if we continue to demand that mainstream audiences see the "error in their ways" and embrace SC2, gaming, e-sports, without compromise, the communities will see no growth.
Whether we like it or not, the perception of professionalism and maturity plays a huge role in whether an endeavour is positively or negatively received. While we might reflexively want to argue the absurdity of societal expectations, being the brash young adults we are, we should take a moment to consider where these expectations come from.
In regards to the issue of language: I think people misunderstand the nature of crude language and its usage. While to an extent some of us find it displeasing due to conditioning, crude language also exists to serve the purpose of expressing mild to extreme disrespect. Words like "fuck" and "rape" are not artificial; they exist because we need them to exist. The presence of cursing in a broadcast or communique can indicate colloquiality, casual dirsregard, or even contempt, depending on the frequency used. That is to say, cursing is a tool that we use intuitively. We censor ourselves when we wish to express respect and friendliness, and we swear when we wish to express disrespect, either explicitly to our enemies or ironically to our friends.
With this in mind, we need to accept that a fastidious attitude toward language is something we must embrace as esports continues to grow. We must understand that cursing in large-scale events like GSL and TSL would have very negative consequences, not because society at large is afraid of words like "fuck," but because it takes offense to the implications of the word "fuck" in a prestigious and mainstream events.
And when it comes to parents, we should recognize that the desire to teach our children the differences between "good" and "bad" words comes not from the irrational fear of the words, but from the intuitive desire to teach our kids good diplomacy.
PS: The argument that Starcraft is a "mature" game and thus should be exempted from mainstream expectations misses the issue entirely. It's not an issue of values or parenting, it's an issue of professionalism.
Post game interviews are the responsibility of both the players being interviewed, and the organisation informing the players that they shouldn't be dropping f bombs etc.
As for broadcasting, I've only really seen gretorp push the edge with his attempts at innuendo jokes.
GSL seems definitely PG (apart from the interviews with Jinro) . Just look at how restrained the language was when Artosis ranted about the Zelda vs Starcraft g4tv deathmatch. He was teetering on the edge of dropping a fuck but was able to control himself.
The OP is an example of the audience that esports needs to reach out to in order to achieve the mainstream appeal of conventional sports. Within esport communities there's this awful tendency (perhaps something to do with the young base) to demand broad acceptance without compromise. This sort of thing is simply not realistic, and if we continue to demand that mainstream audiences see the "error in their ways" and embrace SC2, gaming, e-sports, without compromise, the communities will see no growth.
Whether we like it or not, the perception of professionalism and maturity plays a huge role in whether an endeavour is positively or negatively received. While we might reflexively want to argue the absurdity of societal expectations, being the brash young adults we are, we should take a moment to consider where these expectations come from.
In regards to the issue of language: I think people misunderstand the nature of crude language and its usage. While to an extent some of us find it displeasing due to conditioning, crude language also exists to serve the purpose of expressing mild to extreme disrespect. Words like "fuck" and "rape" are not artificial; they exist because we need these words to exist. The presence of these words in a broadcast or communique can indicate colloquiality, casual dirsregard, or even contempt, depending on the frequency used. That is to say, cursing is a tool that we use intuitively. We censor ourselves when we wish to express respect and friendliness, and we swear when we wish to express disrespect, either explicitly to our enemies or ironically to our friends.
With this in mind, we need to accept that a fastidious attitude toward language is something we must embrace as esports continues to grow. We must understand that cursing in large-scale events like GSL and TSL would have very negative consequences, not because society at large is afraid of words like "fuck," but because they take offense to the implications of the word "fuck" in a prestigious and mainstream event.
And when it comes to parents, we should recognize that the desire to teach our children the differences between "good" and "bad" words comes not from, again, and irrational fear of the words, but from the intuitive desire to teach our kids good diplomacy.
PS: The argument that Starcraft is a "mature" game and thus should be exempted from mainstream expectations misses the issue entirely. It's not an issue of values or parenting, it's an issue of professionalism.
Wow, could not have stated it more clearly and professionally.
"Mom im playing a game where i blow up shit and am constantly thinking about setting all the opponents buildings on fire..." Sure go ahead son "Mom im gonna wach a stream where they might swear a lil bit" Nooooooo!!! Biased much? Kids are gonna have to deal with swearing at one point or another..Sad reality of life...You cant shelter them all the time... And more importantly you can never set guidelines on a caster who is doing it on his freewill....Dont like it?Dont watch Sure if the caster belongs to some corporation or some such and it is not his channel but the companies' then the company is free to set bars on the language of the caster.Since that is pretty scarce in the gaming scene and most casters work individually they shouldnt be pressured to do something they dont have to...Ofcourse smart casters will realize what their audiences want and if they figure out that the audience doesnt want swearing they obviously will stop..But again this is remote in the E-sports community as most of the viewers are young adults and hence dont give a rats ass about how clean the cast is...Infact most enjoy listening to crude jokes and funny swearing..
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear about that.
You can't obviously rate a MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about.
But is he really asking too much? TV and even trailers have warnings about mature themes in a show or even in a small trailer, he is just asking for a similar thing here.
People keep raising the point behind the rating, but there really is nothing to talk about with it. Parents have enough sense to decide whether they want their kids to see/hear certain things. If the parents are fine with some features inside of the game such as units dieing, why should that automatically force them to accept mature language on a stream?
Every major cast is hovering around the same threshold right now though, the GSL, NASL, TSL, MLG even to an extent are all roughly around PG-13 in terms of the content of their casting, which is age-appropriate in regards to violence already contained in the game. If you're okay with your child seeing the violence in the game but not okay with age-equivalent casting then just auto-assume that these events will have that issue, because they all do. I can't think of one that exceeds that threshold, and I can't think of one that is consistently below it, it varies from day to day but it is always around that same general region, the content will be age-appropriate in regards to the rating of the game.
I think the assertion that simulated violence and vulgar diction go together hand in hand is a faulty one.
Regardless, the discussion and question posed here is about the feasibility and application of casting-centric labels... to which the relationship between game rating and presentation tone is only tangentially related. ;o
I've already said, I'm fine with a label but considering these events are live, I wouldn't want to have to tell the players to behave a different way since the way they currently behave is consistent with what would be a PG-13 rating, which is what the violent content of the game would receive.
So, in that sense it's safe to say that every major cast is basically a T: for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes. in the US.
I think the assertion that simulated violence and vulgar diction go together hand in hand is a faulty one.
At a VERY young age (as early as first grade) I have been exposed to the idea of rape and murder on the TV news as I watch it with my parents during dinner time (prime hours!).
You learn even more if you watch movies.
It is inevitable for children these days to not learn a full array of mature languages when they enter school.
I personally do not mind it as long as it is not excessive and used in the "proper context".
The OP is an example of the audience that esports needs to reach out to in order to achieve the mainstream appeal of conventional sports. Within esport communities there's this awful tendency (perhaps something to do with the young base) to demand broad acceptance without compromise. This sort of thing is simply not realistic, and if we continue to demand that mainstream audiences see the "error in their ways" and embrace SC2, gaming, e-sports, without compromise, the communities will see no growth.
Whether we like it or not, the perception of professionalism and maturity plays a huge role in whether an endeavour is positively or negatively received. While we might reflexively want to argue the absurdity of societal expectations, being the brash young adults we are, we should take a moment to consider where these expectations come from.
In regards to the issue of language: I think people misunderstand the nature of crude language and its usage. While to an extent some of us find it displeasing due to conditioning, crude language also exists to serve the purpose of expressing mild to extreme disrespect. Words like "fuck" and "rape" are not artificial; they exist because we need them to exist. The presence of cursing in a broadcast or communique can indicate colloquiality, casual dirsregard, or even contempt, depending on the frequency used. That is to say, cursing is a tool that we use intuitively. We censor ourselves when we wish to express respect and friendliness, and we swear when we wish to express disrespect, either explicitly to our enemies or ironically to our friends.
With this in mind, we need to accept that a fastidious attitude toward language is something we must embrace as esports continues to grow. We must understand that cursing in large-scale events like GSL and TSL would have very negative consequences, not because society at large is afraid of words like "fuck," but because it takes offense to the implications of the word "fuck" in a prestigious and mainstream events.
And when it comes to parents, we should recognize that the desire to teach our children the differences between "good" and "bad" words comes not from the irrational fear of the words, but from the intuitive desire to teach our kids good diplomacy.
PS: The argument that Starcraft is a "mature" game and thus should be exempted from mainstream expectations misses the issue entirely. It's not an issue of values or parenting, it's an issue of professionalism
.
Very good post. I just want to say that cleaning up the language for the sake of professionalism is one thing, it's up to the organizers how they wish to promote their product but I agree that for the bigger tournaments it could be a good idea to keep it clean. Which they do 99% of the time. Forcing it due to concerned parents in the US however is something different and something I'm strongly against. If a group of volunteers would set up a web page where they rated the various streams it's all good, but don't come slapping maturity ratings on Dreamhack and expect it to be official. Know that eSports and Sc2 is a global phenomena and not everyone share the american view on cuss words and censorship. Your ways aren't our ways and don't try to force them on us.
I would love to see a 'cursing jar' or something where the casters would have to put money in every time they said something inappropriate. It would be funny as hell to see on camera. A good running joke and a fun way of self-censorship.
I support what the OP is getting at about having some kind of warning that particular casters use more mature language, or trying to keep major online broadcasts to a PG or PG-13 level. Kids can access too much adult content as it is. SC2 would be better off being more family friendly because that will save on potential issues with the FCC and parenting groups down the road if SC2 were to expand outside of internet broadcasts.
On May 25 2011 01:24 Pandemona wrote: Yes, most of the streams ive ever seen or even most of the GOMtv casts of GSL i watched (mainly VODs thought so mybe they edited out any swearing i missed) i havent seen any huge bad language. Ive heard 1/2 swears from tasteless before but nothing bad.
However i do remember a certain jinro in GSL season 3 swrore several times in his interviews lol, was funny though!
The OP is an example of the audience that esports needs to reach out to in order to achieve the mainstream appeal of conventional sports. Within esport communities there's this awful tendency (perhaps something to do with the young base) to demand broad acceptance without compromise. This sort of thing is simply not realistic, and if we continue to demand that mainstream audiences see the "error in their ways" and embrace SC2, gaming, e-sports, without compromise, the communities will see no growth.
Whether we like it or not, the perception of professionalism and maturity plays a huge role in whether an endeavour is positively or negatively received. While we might reflexively want to argue the absurdity of societal expectations, being the brash young adults we are, we should take a moment to consider where these expectations come from.
In regards to the issue of language: I think people misunderstand the nature of crude language and its usage. While to an extent some of us find it displeasing due to conditioning, crude language also exists to serve the purpose of expressing mild to extreme disrespect. Words like "fuck" and "rape" are not artificial; they exist because we need them to exist. The presence of cursing in a broadcast or communique can indicate colloquiality, casual dirsregard, or even contempt, depending on the frequency used. That is to say, cursing is a tool that we use intuitively. We censor ourselves when we wish to express respect and friendliness, and we swear when we wish to express disrespect, either explicitly to our enemies or ironically to our friends.
With this in mind, we need to accept that a fastidious attitude toward language is something we must embrace as esports continues to grow. We must understand that cursing in large-scale events like GSL and TSL would have very negative consequences, not because society at large is afraid of words like "fuck," but because it takes offense to the implications of the word "fuck" in a prestigious and mainstream events.
And when it comes to parents, we should recognize that the desire to teach our children the differences between "good" and "bad" words comes not from the irrational fear of the words, but from the intuitive desire to teach our kids good diplomacy.
PS: The argument that Starcraft is a "mature" game and thus should be exempted from mainstream expectations misses the issue entirely. It's not an issue of values or parenting, it's an issue of professionalism
.
Very good post. I just want to say that cleaning up the language for the sake of professionalism is one thing, it's up to the organizers how they wish to promote their product but I agree that for the bigger tournaments it could be a good idea to keep it clean. Which they do 99% of the time. Forcing it due to concerned parents in the US however is something different and something I'm strongly against. If a group of volunteers would set up a web page where they rated the various streams it's all good, but don't come slapping maturity ratings on Dreamhack and expect it to be official. Know that eSports and Sc2 is a global phenomena and not everyone share the american view on cuss words and censorship. Your ways aren't our ways and don't try to force them on us.
I echo your sentiments. I don't think the 'standards' will be the same everywhere, but a warning would definitely be good if someone new is unaware of Europe's more lax stance on language. If these things were ever to really materialize, I imagine they'd be upheld by the sponsors before anyone else so the level of professionalism deemed necessary will likely directly relate to the nationality of the source.
It's less about the conduct itself rather than not knowing the conduct is going to occur - the OP and people like him aren't demanding all live SC2 content be sterilized, just that they be told what to expect. Those people are still a minority, so organizers will sooner attach a 'casters are raunchy' tag before censoring content... I'd hope. o__o
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear about that.
You can't obviously rate a MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about.
But is he really asking too much? TV and even trailers have warnings about mature themes in a show or even in a small trailer, he is just asking for a similar thing here.
People keep raising the point behind the rating, but there really is nothing to talk about with it. Parents have enough sense to decide whether they want their kids to see/hear certain things. If the parents are fine with some features inside of the game such as units dieing, why should that automatically force them to accept mature language on a stream?
Every major cast is hovering around the same threshold right now though, the GSL, NASL, TSL, MLG even to an extent are all roughly around PG-13 in terms of the content of their casting, which is age-appropriate in regards to violence already contained in the game. If you're okay with your child seeing the violence in the game but not okay with age-equivalent casting then just auto-assume that these events will have that issue, because they all do. I can't think of one that exceeds that threshold, and I can't think of one that is consistently below it, it varies from day to day but it is always around that same general region, the content will be age-appropriate in regards to the rating of the game.
I think the assertion that simulated violence and vulgar diction go together hand in hand is a faulty one.
Regardless, the discussion and question posed here is about the feasibility and application of casting-centric labels... to which the relationship between game rating and presentation tone is only tangentially related. ;o
I've already said, I'm fine with a label but considering these events are live, I wouldn't want to have to tell the players to behave a different way since the way they currently behave is consistent with what would be a PG-13 rating, which is what the violent content of the game would receive.
So, in that sense it's safe to say that every major cast is basically a T: for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes. in the US.
When you say something new, I'll say something new.
When you make a point, I'll speak to that point.
I never said that vulgar diction and violence go hand in hand, but both are generally considered inappropriate for youngsters, if something has levels violence that leads to a rating of 13+, then removing any aspects of language won't change that the violence is still present. If you're fine with your child viewing violent imagery but not hearing mature language then that's your call.
I was speaking more specifically to the idea of a tag in that post, generally if you take don't take issue with the things listed on the back of Starcraft 2(Violence, Blood and Gore, Language and Suggestive Themes), you won't have a problem with pretty much every major casting event... Just use that as your gauge.
In regards to Starcraft 2, casting is generally leveled around the PG-13 mark, which is the level of content in the game as well as what happens to be listed on the box.
What point are you making? I'm confused... Yeah, violence doesn't require vulgarity to go hand-in-hand with it, I never said that it does.
On May 25 2011 05:39 DestroManiak wrote: Kids do not need your protection... (Unless it is some extreme hardcore porn or some serious violence, like footage of real violence or something...)
Thats totally up to the parents of the kids in question as to what their kids need protection from, you may not care about anything except hardcore porn and violence, but I guarantee there is a very large portion of parents who have much stricter guidelines for what they do not want THEIR kids exposed to at certain ages.
I agree with having a rating for casted tournaments and shows. I very much think that it's really easy to rate a show as mature and be done with it there. User streams should be taken as being unrated though imo.
Under 13 should not be watching SC2 anyway. The casters are not the problem you are if you let children see marines getting massacred by blades and acid. Sc is rated Teen.
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.
Mpaa rating that goes with 13+ PG-13 for Parental Guidance 13+ - Parents urged to be cautious. Some material may be inappropriate for pre-teenagers.
So yea when it comes to ops point I think they need to start slapping a pg13 tag or something onto events with casters just to keep them safe. But anyone who thinks censoring great personalitys like day9/tastosis is a good ideal your crazy. Lagtv is a good example of funny ass casters who are lamer when they try to censor casts.
The OP is an example of the audience that esports needs to reach out to in order to achieve the mainstream appeal of conventional sports. Within esport communities there's this awful tendency (perhaps something to do with the young base) to demand broad acceptance without compromise. This sort of thing is simply not realistic, and if we continue to demand that mainstream audiences see the "error in their ways" and embrace SC2, gaming, e-sports, without compromise, the communities will see no growth.
Whether we like it or not, the perception of professionalism and maturity plays a huge role in whether an endeavour is positively or negatively received. While we might reflexively want to argue the absurdity of societal expectations, being the brash young adults we are, we should take a moment to consider where these expectations come from.
In regards to the issue of language: I think people misunderstand the nature of crude language and its usage. While to an extent some of us find it displeasing due to conditioning, crude language also exists to serve the purpose of expressing mild to extreme disrespect. Words like "fuck" and "rape" are not artificial; they exist because we need them to exist. The presence of cursing in a broadcast or communique can indicate colloquiality, casual dirsregard, or even contempt, depending on the frequency used. That is to say, cursing is a tool that we use intuitively. We censor ourselves when we wish to express respect and friendliness, and we swear when we wish to express disrespect, either explicitly to our enemies or ironically to our friends.
With this in mind, we need to accept that a fastidious attitude toward language is something we must embrace as esports continues to grow. We must understand that cursing in large-scale events like GSL and TSL would have very negative consequences, not because society at large is afraid of words like "fuck," but because it takes offense to the implications of the word "fuck" in a prestigious and mainstream events.
And when it comes to parents, we should recognize that the desire to teach our children the differences between "good" and "bad" words comes not from the irrational fear of the words, but from the intuitive desire to teach our kids good diplomacy.
PS: The argument that Starcraft is a "mature" game and thus should be exempted from mainstream expectations misses the issue entirely. It's not an issue of values or parenting, it's an issue of professionalism
.
Very good post. I just want to say that cleaning up the language for the sake of professionalism is one thing, it's up to the organizers how they wish to promote their product but I agree that for the bigger tournaments it could be a good idea to keep it clean. Which they do 99% of the time. Forcing it due to concerned parents in the US however is something different and something I'm strongly against. If a group of volunteers would set up a web page where they rated the various streams it's all good, but don't come slapping maturity ratings on Dreamhack and expect it to be official. Know that eSports and Sc2 is a global phenomena and not everyone share the american view on cuss words and censorship. Your ways aren't our ways and don't try to force them on us.
I echo your sentiments. I don't think the 'standards' will be the same everywhere, but a warning would definitely be good if someone new is unaware of Europe's more lax stance on language. If these things were ever to really materialize, I imagine they'd be upheld by the sponsors before anyone else so the level of professionalism deemed necessary will likely directly relate to the nationality of the source.
It's less about the conduct itself rather than not knowing the conduct is going to occur - the OP and people like him aren't demanding all live SC2 content be sterilized, just that they be told what to expect. Those people are still a minority, so organizers will sooner attach a 'casters are raunchy' tag before censoring content... I'd hope. o__o
Maybe it's the definition of the label I oppose. I suppose a tag saying the content is not censored or restricted would be alright and would serve as a warning for parents such as the OP. Forcing a label saying the content is not appropriate for children however just seems wrong to me, it could lead to European(or American for that matter) parents who doesn't care much about the occasional foul language would feel reluctant to let their children watch.
Although personally I have no issue with this, I havn't had any kids yet so my views could change! I do realise there are alot of parents out there who feel the same as the OP.
The first thing I would suggest, although I realise this really isn't ideal, is to watch anything you want to show them first and check for anything which you deem to be inappropriate. Obviously like I said this isn't ideal, but it's really the only way to be 100% sure if you really feel strongly about the issue.
Apart from that I don't really think there is any surefire way to police this, I mean when emotions are running high it's very easy to slip up on a live cast. But I agree casters should probably be a little more conscious of what they say in the larger tournaments. You would NEVER see someone swearing on GSL for instance, you often see Nick and Dan catch themselves though! lol
we as a community are trying to make sc as accessible as possible for everyone to enjoy so that the scene can prosper. I can see parents stopping their children from watching sc2 streams with mature language but i dont think mature audiences will stop watching sc2 if the language was more timid. I do think that maturer audiences may seek more mature kinds of enjoyment from streamers, but i think that it would be considerate to note that distinction by the streamer.
"Mature Language Streamer" is really all that needs to be put. Personally, I feel like the best casts dont necessarily rely on mature language, and since we are trying to make this game as accessible as possible i would recommend everyone to just refrain from it.
The OP makes a good argument, but i feel that if the kids really are interested in StarCraft, they're going to be watching the streams anyways, and be exposed to the mature content. People tend to freak out about obscene language these days, I've noticed.
I'm 14. I'm not going to go on a killing spree because I saw some marines get ripped apart by zerglings. Hearing casters scream "holy shit! <why it's amazing>" won't make me into a bad person. A lot of parents that I've met seem to assume that as long as the kid doesn't hear the word when they're around the parent, they're never going to hear the word. This is simply not true.
I'm with the europeans on this one, just chillax it.
That said, if keeping it all PG(-13) would help expand SC2, I'm all for it. Most casters are pretty good about keeping it under control. I don't think that i've ever heard Husky or Chill swear. Gretorp's little innuendos are a bit more suspect, but depending on how young the kid is, he's either heard it before or won't understand it.
Day[9] sometimes goes overboard, though. The best cast in history is a great example of this.Chill vs Combat-Ex
I disagree with the PG rule. Granted I prefer everything as R rated as possible, but I can understand why that's a negative thing for esports. However, that being said, I think it should be rated the same as the game itself is, Teen. So I suppose PG-13 is the appropriate comparison.
It just seems pretty unlikely that someone who is that young is going to be watching in the first place, the majority of viewers are ages 14+ and already swear like sailors.
Personally, I won't even watch a movie if its PG rated most of the time. I hate when things are dulled down, cause life sure isn't.
Silly idea! What's the fucking problem with an occasional curse word once in a while during a cast? A well placed holy shit or a fucking cunt enhances the cast. First it has a shock effect and secondly a humorous effect, if used properly and intelligent.
Wrong priority Why is that Americans claims they protect the children from cursing while not protecting them from far more severe problems. I talk about the right for parents to beat up a child! That horrible... What is worse a physically and mentality damaged child vs a child that experience a curse word?
In America there are many parents with guns and those guns invoke fear and cause a lot of accidental injuries and death for children.
The OP is an example of the audience that esports needs to reach out to in order to achieve the mainstream appeal of conventional sports. Within esport communities there's this awful tendency (perhaps something to do with the young base) to demand broad acceptance without compromise. This sort of thing is simply not realistic, and if we continue to demand that mainstream audiences see the "error in their ways" and embrace SC2, gaming, e-sports, without compromise, the communities will see no growth.
Whether we like it or not, the perception of professionalism and maturity plays a huge role in whether an endeavour is positively or negatively received. While we might reflexively want to argue the absurdity of societal expectations, being the brash young adults we are, we should take a moment to consider where these expectations come from.
In regards to the issue of language: I think people misunderstand the nature of crude language and its usage. While to an extent some of us find it displeasing due to conditioning, crude language also exists to serve the purpose of expressing mild to extreme disrespect. Words like "fuck" and "rape" are not artificial; they exist because we need them to exist. The presence of cursing in a broadcast or communique can indicate colloquiality, casual dirsregard, or even contempt, depending on the frequency used. That is to say, cursing is a tool that we use intuitively. We censor ourselves when we wish to express respect and friendliness, and we swear when we wish to express disrespect, either explicitly to our enemies or ironically to our friends.
With this in mind, we need to accept that a fastidious attitude toward language is something we must embrace as esports continues to grow. We must understand that cursing in large-scale events like GSL and TSL would have very negative consequences, not because society at large is afraid of words like "fuck," but because it takes offense to the implications of the word "fuck" in a prestigious and mainstream events.
And when it comes to parents, we should recognize that the desire to teach our children the differences between "good" and "bad" words comes not from the irrational fear of the words, but from the intuitive desire to teach our kids good diplomacy.
PS: The argument that Starcraft is a "mature" game and thus should be exempted from mainstream expectations misses the issue entirely. It's not an issue of values or parenting, it's an issue of professionalism
I agree with this 100%. If we (as a major part of the E-sports community) really want to be taken seriously, then we need to act professionally. It's perfectly exceptable for casters to get excited and let things slip. It happens, and it displays a level of passion that I think is important. But professional tournaments like NASL, TSL, GSL, etc should strive to maintain a professional cast.
On May 25 2011 01:34 mahrgell wrote: StarCraft2 is depending on country for ppl 12+ to 16+ (in some countries the uncensored version is 18+)
Why does the language on a stream about 12+ content need to be adjusted for 8 years old?
Many parents don't want their 12 year olds being exposed to f-bombs either.
America is a bit weird in this respect - adults swear all the time, but the "but not in front of the kids!!" attitude is extremely prevalent, even from parents who swear a lot themselves outside of their kids' presence.
America does seem to be very different when it comes to swearing. To me the American idea is not to swear in front of strangers or authority figures, mostly for the reasons TotalBiscuit has said (shows lack of vocabulary, nonprofessional, etc). Children don't develop a good sense of what is appropriate without a lot of reinforcement, so in general its safer to teach them not to swear. For instance, a person may be okay with their child swearing, but nobody wants their child to be constantly in trouble for swearing at school, and it can be very difficult to teach a child (and to some extent teenagers as well, depends on the kid) when swearing is okay.
To that end, I agree that major tournaments - the crux of expanding SC2 eSports' popularity - should adopt more of a PG language filter. I don't think the casts will suffer in any way from more professional language, and more professional casting will help bring more legitimacy to broadcasts. Shows where the community lets its hair down, so to speak, and are for more niche audiences like State of the Game and the Day9 Daily's don't need to be as professional.
I think professional casting is one of the things that will help keep the perception of SC2 as a sport, and not as a bunch of nerds watching each other play a videogame (which is unfortunately not uncommon.)
The ESRB rating of the game is T for Teen so technically no one can complain if the casting of the game stays at the teen level since lil kids shouldn't even be watching the game to begin with. Yeah I want e-sports to grow, but the game is still about killing people in mass quantities remember?
On May 25 2011 10:39 Medrea wrote: The ESRB rating of the game is T for Teen so technically no one can complain if the casting of the game stays at the teen level since lil kids shouldn't even be watching the game to begin with. Yeah I want e-sports to grow, but the game is still about killing people in mass quantities remember?
Also Day9 daily is extremely family friendly.
as hard as day 9 tries to keep it clean he often gets very excited about what he is talking about and he ends up saying fuck etc.
In a PG 13 movie they are allowed to say Fuck twice. So, daily is still fine.
Also a lot of people are getting offtopic when they argue stuff like "Well my kids see more guts or whatever on the WB" and thats for another thread. Topic of thread is about maturity level of casting. I believe that casters should not be forced to limit there content to below what the ESRB standard is anyway. If they can, great. If they have to go into M for mature rating land then an advisory beforehand would be perfect.
As a caster, player, and stream-watcher, I completely understand. My take on casting is that it never hearts to self-sensor. I feel like everyone can express themselves effectively without using harsh language. Not matter how I talk outside of casting, I prefer to take the safe bet when I do.
For the larger leagues and more popular casters, they're in the light much much much more than I am. When you are in the public's eye, you just have to make sure to act a certain way.
I think that the casters could do themselves all a big favour to bring a higher level of professionalism to the table when they're casting. While I don't see what the point is of trying to keep your 8 and 12 year olds from hearing cuss words they probably already use regularly when you're not around, it's unprofessional. While I don't personally mind, I understand that it's something that will hold back the growth of e-sports.
I have to wonder, how often do the Korean commentators swear or use inappropriate jokes in their casts? I'll bet that number is close to 0.
I agree with the OP keep things relatively PG rated. A good rule of thumb is that profanity is unprofessional same goes for the sexual innuendos. Using curse words is something that you do among friends and people that you know, should be used around people of mixed company, I mean that's just standard manners.
If eSports are going to get more popular, casters and the people affiliated with them, are going to have to be aware of what they are saying on air. But when they are off air, I don't really care what they say.
Why do so many people want esports to be all professional and serious (often times this means boring) at the expense of some of the fun and sillyness of it?
I mean it is a game and as such enjoyment and fun should be a the main priority.
GSL is clean (minus whenever Jinro is on), and has the most popular casting duo.
I have nothing against bad words or sexual jokes - they can certainly be entertaining. But, as an adult, especially when I'm watching a big tourney, I'd rather the casters are professional.
Its guns that kill people, not strong language or nudity. Set you premise right in the land of freedom. And btw. SC2 is rated T by the ESRB, how come your 8 year old kid is allowed to watch. Think about that before trying to make a serious point.
In addition to that i question the statement, that professional casters use strong language at all.
Doesnt the Box have a rating on it? If its rated teen. then expect anything that has to do with it to be at the teen level.
By the time a kid is a teen he knows what words mean, cursing etc. and a vast majority of kids know about sex by the time that they are that age as well.
I normally hate analogies, but if you brought your kids to the movies, and it was a movie that was rated for people older than your kids, are you going to ask the producers to change the movies that they write?
EDIT: beat by guy ahead of me,
but also i know players like huk have a "I am 18" button on their steam, because in the instance like huk, he prefers entertainment over professionalism when it comes to his desktop
You're watching dudes get melted by acid or incinerated, yet you care more about your kids hearing how "fucking awesome" it was? I bet you complain about tits in A Nightmare on Elms Street.
First of all, thanks for such a level headed post. Before reading this, I always thought that it was the parent's job to censor what their kids watch, but I do agree with you. I think that casts should be family friendly, both to seek professionalism and to appeal to a wider audience. By not dropping a curse word, basically everyone gets what they want.
That being said, I think that shows like SoTG and ItG should be able to use curse words if they wish. I'm not saying its a good decision, because limiting one'sTarget audience for no reason seems like a bad idea. However, I think that the format of these talk shows is a more relaxed, friendly atmosphere. I think that the hosts need to feel like they don’t need to watch what they can say as much as normal. For this to be true, I’m willing to accept a few curse words. That being said, my ideas are not set in stone, and I can see myself changing my mind in the future.
I agree with the OP. Cursing and sex jokes belong in the dorm, not in a professional broadcast. I don't have children but I can definitely understand wanting to keep their innocence as intact as possible for as long as possible.
Just because you can swear and joke about sex doesn't mean you should. Just because it doesn't seem very important to you doesn't mean it's like that to everyone.
By bringing up arguments about "how the game is rated T for Teen" or how "this must be an American thing" or "words don't hurt anyone" ignores the fact that by saying such things you are:
1. Being hypocritical, imposing your standards on someone else.
1A. And you're doing it in a much less polite way than the OP did. He wasn't even trying to impose his standards. He even said so! All he said he wanted was a discussion about the situation and maybe some kind of rating system for broadcasts if casters still want to use strong language and make adult jokes. He's saying, have your fun, say whatever you want, but let people know beforehand so if they don't want to hear profanity they don't have to find out when the f-bombs start dropping.
2. Probably just being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk. If it's not that important, then it's not important enough to question someone's parenting ability and/or make snide remarks about other countries.
The posts disagreeing with the OP overwhelmingly seem to be very defensive. There's nothing wrong with it (us), there's something wrong with you! He wasn't attacking anyone. There's no need to attack him. He didn't even say he thought adults swearing amongst themselves was wrong! He just said he didn't think it's right to do so where children can hear it, especially if it's going to be frequent and incendiary.
Its not about whether or not the game is beyond her comprehension. Whatever it is that you are doing, your kid is going to want to be there with you and take part too. She doesn't really understand football but she still loves to watch the games with me every Sunday. Aside from the language used by the casters, I can not recall anything that I felt was inappropriate for her to see or hear in a SC2 1v1 match.
What about the guys killing each other?
She's seen more blood and guts watching me skin deer and clean fish.
And you think that messes a child up less than hearing swearing? Holy moly...... I wouldn't even want to see that. Thats where the cultural divide really shows, if you think thats ok for your child but hearing some dude say the word fuck isn't.... we have completely different ideas about what is appropriate for a child, and I would guess 99% of the people in the UK would agree with me.
I'm not saying you are wrong to let your child see it, but just goes to show that whats ok in one place is completely different from another, and with the internet..... thats what you have to deal with.
Yeah, where I'm from and how I was raised hunting and fishing is a way of life. We don't kill animals just to kill them. Each year most of the men in my family donate a deer to a foundation called "hunters for the hungry" where the processed meat is used to feed the homeless and needy. Processing the meat is part of it for us. The kids almost always follow us around and hold the ice chest lid open so we can drop the quartered meat into it.
I personally am not offended by cursing and admittedly I swear more than I should when I'm out of the house and away from my family. I don't want to impose my beliefs on anyone, nor do I believe that the SC2 community is obligated to censorship.
That said, I still wish I was able to let my daughter watch SC2 tournaments with me just like we do baseball and football. Me and my wife have made a decision though not to expose her to profane language and sexually suggestive material. I don't think people are wrong for disagreeing with me, but I don't think I'm wrong either for wanting a more family friendly e-sports scene.
This is a very interesting topic and something I will luckily not have to deal with for another couple of years. However, I agree with Chill in most regards. Livestreams/user streams should remain uncensored.
Large tournaments with big followings - GSL, TSL, IPL, NASL, MLG etc should all have some rules not allowing swear words and overt sexual references. I watch GSL the most and feel that their casts are very appropriate and aren't really a worry for child audiences. Perhaps more casters should model language after Tastosis.
A lot of hate in this thread, I'm surprised, we should be applauding parents who expose their children to esports - recruiting youth is a essential to the survival to any major sport, and many active sporting codes invest alot of money into running teams for younger children.
I don't think it's reasonable, and I personally wouldn't like it at all if all swearing was banned, I enjoy Huk's desktops, and Day9 can be profane and fucking hilarious (BEAR SEMEN anyone?), and would hate to see them changed, these players are providing us a service and can do whatever they want on their own production.
As for NASL, TSL, GSL, they have, and do seem to be more professional, which is fine and probably needed cause they are they "major" events that people are likely to get into Starcraft, these should be friendly, and mostly are.
Also, the ESRB argument is invalid, because it clearly states that Online Interactions Not Rated by the ESRB on the box if you care to read it.
People here seem very concerned with appearing "desirable" and "professional" in order to promote Esports. I personally do not think that Esports needs to abide the rules of other sports when it comes to commentating, My view is that SC2 commentary should suit the audience's taste and nothing else, really. If the audience enjoys and demands a certain amount of profanity, dirty jokes or whatever, so be it, there is nothing wrong with it.
Esports culture does need to be traditional sports culture. It is the customer's needs that dictate the rules in business. Forcing a certain casting style purely of the sake of "professionalism" is pointless.
Arguments against OP 1. Restricting free speech 2. Not very important 3. There are other methods that should be implemented to protect children, especially (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_corporal_punishment) 4. The streaming medium is similar to cable and not to the standards of over-the-air method 5. Divides the community (Lamers on one side and Gamers on the other side) 6. Dishonest to the community and "selling out"
1. Stop imposing American ideals on me. 2. It's rated T for Teen, so children shouldn't watch anyways. 3. Using a more refined and appropriate vocabulary for large tournaments can ONLY help e-sports grow. The professionalism of the commentary and respect for ALL viewers will only invite more viewers. Nobody stops watching GSL because Tastosis doesn't swear enough.
My personal bias here should be obvious to anyone with respect to the growing industry we all support.
I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
On May 25 2011 12:04 Hatsu wrote: People here seem very concerned with appearing "desirable" and "professional" in order to promote Esports. I personally do not think that Esports needs to abide the rules of other sports when it comes to commentating, My view is that SC2 commentary should suit the audience's taste and nothing else, really. If the audience enjoys and demands a certain amount of profanity, dirty jokes or whatever, so be it, there is nothing wrong with it.
Esports culture does need to be traditional sports culture. It is the customer's needs that dictate the rules in business. Forcing a certain casting style purely of the sake of "professionalism" is pointless.
If you ever want to expand esports' audience outside of the high-school/young adult male demographic, it certainly does have a point.
And since accomplishing that means more exposure and more money, that point is a big one.
If you ever want to see Starcraft II or other esports being broadcast on live television anywhere outside of Korea you're going to have to give up the fucks and the pussy jokes. Not everyone is 23 and has no problem with sex and profanity being casual parts of conversation.
If you still want that, there will always be plenty of casual streams and SOTG, Day9, etc.
On May 25 2011 11:47 Joedaddy wrote: Yeah, where I'm from and how I was raised hunting and fishing is a way of life. We don't kill animals just to kill them. Each year most of the men in my family donates a deer to a foundation called "hunters for the hungry" where the processed meat is used to feed the homeless and needy. Processing the meat is part of it for us. The kids almost always follow us around and hold the ice chest lid open so we can drop the quartered meat into it.
I personally am not offended by cursing and admittedly I swear more than I should when I'm out of the house and away from my family. I don't want to impose my beliefs on anyone, nor do I believe that the SC2 community is obligated to censorship.
That said, I still wish I was able to let my daughter watch SC2 tournaments with me just like we do baseball and football. Me and my wife have made a decision though not to expose her to profane language and sexually suggestive material. I don't think people are wrong for disagreeing with me, but I don't think I'm wrong either for wanting a more family friendly e-sports scene.
Thats a pretty good statement, i don't want to question that a family friendly e-sports scene is cool. But: You get on a level where it is acceptable to watch some dudes kill other dudes. For you its OK, because its in a video game. Why do you apply this rule just to the killing stuff? Why is it such a big leap for you to say: "Yes they swear there sometimes, but they are grown up and in a video game."
I just don't (and will never) get why people make this difference. "Sex to the dorm...shh don't talk about it" - "This is the trigger, you have to aim for the head, son." Strong violence is needed to even make this game possible, but please no bad words.
I'm not trying to impose my opinion to anybody, I just can't solve this giant mindfuck. I fucked and cursed people, but i didn't kill anyone.
Edit:
If you ever want to see Starcraft II or other esports being broadcast on live television anywhere outside of Korea you're going to have to give up the fucks and the pussy jokes. Not everyone is 23 and has no problem with sex and profanity being casual parts of conversation.
If you ever want to see Starcraft II or other esports being broadcast on live television anywhere outside of Korea you're going to have to give up the fucks and the pussy jokes. Not everyone is 23 and has no problem with sex and profanity being casual parts of conversation.
JWD United States. May 25 2011 12:11
I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
I don't get it! Where are the caster that makes fool out of themselves? Can you name these casters that are so profane? When did it become a problem that the starcraft 2 casters weren't mainstream enough? Why are you recommending casters/streams that you have a encountered with questionable casters and still recommending it to friends. Did you enjoy them? Very strange.
i think that they should try to an extent to keep it clean but not to have to worry about it if it slips up. loose censorship can be a good thing but if the censorship gets outta hand ill just stop watching it and go somewhere else. i hate to listen to people trying to stay clean it just sounds fake sometimes.
It's a relevant to point to make from the broadcasters point of view alone. There is no professional broadcasting corporation around, sports related or otherwise that doesn't think hard about the kind of content it is producing and how it might be received by the public. While shows like State of the Game are definitely aimed towards a mature audience in terms of language used and the higher level discussions being had broadcasts of leagues and tournaments such as the NASL, TSL, GSL and such should definitely consider their audiences.
Personally I don't know a lot of people who will boycott a cast because there isn't any swearing in it and I really don't see where swearing has any relevance in that particular context. On the flip side, there are parents who monitor what their children watch and cleaning up the language is definitely going to boost the young SC2 fan numbers by making it more accessible to them. If dropping something like swearing can increase viewer numbers and on the side increase respectability and credibility among sponsors then they'd be stupid not to do it.
I think the obvious suggestion is that each tournament or league actively considers what age groups they want to target and then make it very clear to viewers so that fans like the OP can easily decide which streams and VODs to watch.
On May 25 2011 12:04 Hatsu wrote: People here seem very concerned with appearing "desirable" and "professional" in order to promote Esports. I personally do not think that Esports needs to abide the rules of other sports when it comes to commentating, My view is that SC2 commentary should suit the audience's taste and nothing else, really. If the audience enjoys and demands a certain amount of profanity, dirty jokes or whatever, so be it, there is nothing wrong with it.
Esports culture does need to be traditional sports culture. It is the customer's needs that dictate the rules in business. Forcing a certain casting style purely of the sake of "professionalism" is pointless.
If you ever want to expand esports' audience outside of the high-school/young adult male demographic, it certainly does have a point.
And since accomplishing that means more exposure and more money, that point is a big one.
If you ever want to see Starcraft II or other esports being broadcast on live television anywhere outside of Korea you're going to have to give up the fucks and the pussy jokes. Not everyone is 23 and has no problem with sex and profanity being casual parts of conversation.
If you still want that, there will always be plenty of casual streams and SOTG, Day9, etc.
The point of my post is that every community of people has a set of values, certain preferences and a certain taste. If the SC2 community, which is the real audience that exists right now and not some hypothetical expanded audience that may or may not exist in the future, enjoys a certain type of humor than it should be satisfied. This is what any sensible and educated marketing manager would do.
An expansion of Starcraft2 to a larger audience cannot come from a change imposed on the community by external forces but rather from cultural acceptance and a natural expansion of the SC2 community as it exists now and in the future. The SC2 community is a gamers community and if it ever grows it will be through a growth in the number of gamers. If you think that avoiding dirty jokes will magically attract a legion of 40 years old dads and their kids, please explain how.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
God forbid they suspect the SC2 community of having fun and having a friendly relationship with the players and casters.
It doesn't bother me personally, but in principle, if we are serious about being mainstream or at least popular we need to not have barriers to watching for some audiences based on language or content which doesn't actually add anything SC wise to the casts.
Edit: Also, it does seem kind of bush league when someone screams HOLY SHIT! or something like that. There is no reason I can think of that something like "Wow! Amazing play!" wouldn't do just as well.
I don't get why people are so against providing more information.
At the bare minimum, the op is looking for a label on the cast essentially describing the language content to be expected. aka information. Not censoring your precious swear words. Heaven's knows why it's so important to retain 'fuck' and 'rape' in a cast. But you do, and the op wants to know if that's the case in each tournament.
Information.
Sure it's rated Teen. And people are going to have different standards with issues of swearing, violence, sex, and disturbing content. That's why I find the MPAA ratings on movies incredibly useless and tend to check imdb to see specifically what it's rated for. Because I consider some things more disturbing then others. And apparently the op does so as well.
I don't really understand the violence apologists as they seem to think SC2 is somehow incredibly violent- everything is so small and most is mechanical. As far as intense violence, a PG movie like Prince Caspian is more violent. The point is, when one watches a SC tournament, one reasonably expects very miniature amounts of violence of very little emotional intensity (no close-ups, dieing scenes, no Saving Private Ryan moments), but one does not necessarily expect to be greeted by f-bombs and players 'getting raped'.
So the op wishes to be informed ahead of time.
Information. What do you have against it?
As a complete aside and nothing to do with this particular thread, but:
On May 25 2011 01:04 warsinger wrote: but I'd like to hear what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue.
I'm no longer convinced this is the case. They're out there I'm sure, but sometimes I feel like they've been drowned out.
Ugh, one of the reasons I prefer watching things on the internet is escaping all the ridiculous draconian rules the FCC imposes on conventional media. I enjoy watching a cast and hearing about how a player is getting raped or how a play was FUCKING good. I'm not suggesting you cast like Andrew Dice Clay, but if a "fuck" slips out every now and then, by all means let it.
And don't give me any of that "save the children" bs, a typical 4th grader will already know the vast majority of the American swear word lexicon, and what's the harm in them hearing it anyway? They're just words.
Toss a big fat R on the screen prior to the cast. Bam lets do this. I guess bad language offends some people and the situations that can be raised by language. If your child goes to public school then you shouldn't concern yourself with it because they hear worse there.
Honestly most casts i watch rarely involve bad language. More sexual situations then anything to me. And younger children probably wouldn't understood/comprehend those. If they do. Great for them.
I understand how you want to shield your children from it or desire a bit more respect from the casts. Or just want a warning. I really am not partial to it.
JTV does some asking if your 18 or older but thats completely up to the channel to have that.
I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
True!
I think many younger children are getting into eSports (duh, eSports is the future! I mean present!) and there should definitely be a little more consistency. I think the PG level would be good. This way, people would have more incentive to watch individual players' streams if they want to know their real side or want to hear them troll and BM and swear (destiny, etc. haha).
Casters, don't let language harm the future of eSports!
Those of you who say we shouldn't worry about the kids... the kids are the future! Are you saying that we should let something like bad language stop the new generations' interest? I thought it was eSports' goal to grow and become "legit" and widely accepted. Kids can tune into NBA and etc. and watch the game without worrying about explicit language.
It's hilarious that this just came up, cause I was just thinking about this while watching the EG Master's Cup Series.
While I enjoy the preshow music, I was surprised how much cussing was left in. Eminem talking about getting "shitfaced" is fine if you intentionally want to listen to Eminem, but I was pretty surprised to hear it while waiting to watch Starcraft.
Also, the blatent "What the FUCK!" in the intro was pretty surprising too.
Now I'm not one on censorship and the likes. I definitely don't think anyone or any group should be FORCED to edit their material.
I'd just like to encourage SC organizations to wean off the cursing, especially if they want to expand their viewer base. IMHO, I just don't get what purpose it serves. I doubt people are more prone to watch a show for the cussing, but instead, are more likely to NOT watch it because of it.
Like I said, I totally believe its up to a person/organization to decide whether or not they're going to cuss. And honestly, I'm not going to stop watching if they keep it up. But for the sake of the legitimacy of the sport, I'd just like to encourage them not to.
Agreed with the OP. If eSports wants to expand outside of late adolescent/young adult demograph then this needs to happen. Perfect example of this is parents watching with their children as brought up in the OP. Day9 does a pretty good job of keeping his casting friendly for all audiences (from what i've seen anyway, I don't watch the dailies). Offensive language just seems to creep in with people dropping F bombs, saying harassment/attacks did a "shitload of damage" and saying a player/army got "raped"
People are gonna have a kneejerk resistance to this and defend it by saying they dont want to become politically correct and boring but you can keep it real without profanity. Most sports commentators are forbidden to swear, I don't see why eSports should be exempt from this.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
God forbid they suspect the SC2 community of having fun and having a friendly relationship with the players and casters.
Fun and friendly is great, but it comes in all varieties. All I'm saying is that the PG-13 SC broadcasts don't appeal to my non-gamer-type friends, and aren't at all helping me convince those friends that they shouldn't dismiss SC2 fandom as purely for nerdy teenagers.
It's just harder to say that SC2 is a legitimate competitive/business enterprise when top SC2 broadcasts involve penis jokes.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
Ugh. They're just having fun and being entertaining, why do people give a fuck about swearing it's 2011 not 1408. I'm quite scared all this emphasis on being ~professional~ is going to make the casting scene rather stagnant and boring. It's first and foremost a game, and games should be fun and enjoyable.
EDIT: That said I do agree with the part about stupid grade 2 jokes being pretty terrible.
But the part in your above post about business enterprise is exactly what scares me, a shift of emphasis from the fun of the game to serious businessy type boring stuff.
Husky is okay for casting, I mean sometimes he occasionally has a "inappropriate" words, but only like in about one in seven or eight of his videos. Watching official tournaments should not be a problem, they will barely ever use profane language, such as GSL or NASL, at most "idiotic, stupid, retarded" etc., but nothing too vulgar. Sex jokes are rarely ever used, with a few exceptions such as HuK and Destiny.
I know in the OP you stated that you occasionally hear it such as the TSL, but in an organized tournament such as the GSL you will rarely hear it. It does depend on the caster, Gretorp is a bit more casual, but people such as iNcontroL and IdrA should not give you a problem.
But for fun, the most I would recommend is definitely HuskyStarCraft. Day9 usually never makes vulgar jokes for the fun of it, and only uses a few profane words here and there to "spice" up his language like the rest of us.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
Ugh. They're just having fun and being entertaining, why do people give a fuck about swearing it's 2011 not 1408. I'm quite scared all this emphasis on being ~professional~ is going to make the casting scene rather stagnant and boring. It's first and foremost a game, and games should be fun and enjoyable.
EDIT: That said I do agree with the part about stupid grade 2 jokes being pretty terrible.
But the part in your above post about business enterprise is exactly what scares me, a shift of emphasis from the fun of the game to serious businessy type boring stuff.
You can say it's 2011 and not 1408. But how can you argue about how an outsider should view your game. It's their perception you're trying to argue against. When it comes down to it, you're the insider to a very niche game that is hamstrung by a gamer culture that has a reputation of consisting of angry teens.
They're the outsider and no amount of 'get with times' will convince them that penis and rape jokes, f-bombs et al aren't juvenile but actually tremendously witty in the vein of Stephen Fry. You can try I guess, but it just doesn't sound so persuasive to me.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
Ugh. They're just having fun and being entertaining, why do people give a fuck about swearing it's 2011 not 1408. I'm quite scared all this emphasis on being ~professional~ is going to make the casting scene rather stagnant and boring. It's first and foremost a game, and games should be fun and enjoyable.
EDIT: That said I do agree with the part about stupid grade 2 jokes being pretty terrible.
But the part in your above post about business enterprise is exactly what scares me, a shift of emphasis from the fun of the game to serious businessy type boring stuff.
You can say it's 2011 and not 1408. But how can you argue about how an outsider should view your game. It's their perception you're trying to argue against. When it comes down to it, you're the insider to a very niche game that is hamstrung by a gamer culture that has a reputation of consisting of angry teens.
They're the outsider and no amount of 'get with times' will convince them that penis and rape jokes, f-bombs et al aren't juvenile but actually tremendously witty in the vein of Stephen Fry. You can try I guess, but it just doesn't sound so persuasive to me.
Oh yeh for sure, but although the scene is niche it is reasonably decent in size - in the scheme of things, does it really need to start pulling in larger numbers of people?
EDIT: Actually re reading your post I see it's not just about attracting viewers but social acceptance in which case I have to agree because that is important in terms of having people understand and public support on legal issues etc.
No, I'm not saying that we necessarily need to start pulling in larger numbers. However, what this thread is bringing out that there are people within our community including mods that would like to share their passion with a few more friends, but would rather not due to the risk juvenile sounding comments coming from the casters.
It's not so much that people are hoping that SC will ever be up there with the pro-sports. But it's the word of mouth spreading that people are still hesitant about due to language issues.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
God forbid they suspect the SC2 community of having fun and having a friendly relationship with the players and casters.
Fun and friendly is great, but it comes in all varieties. All I'm saying is that the PG-13 SC broadcasts don't appeal to my non-gamer-type friends, and aren't at all helping me convince those friends that they shouldn't dismiss SC2 fandom as purely for nerdy teenagers.
It's just harder to say that SC2 is a legitimate competitive/business enterprise when top SC2 broadcasts involve penis jokes.
We are talking about professional Starcraft playing here. It will be dismissed by the closeminded and elderly regardless of swearing, the audience, even among non-gamers, that would tune in wouldn't care about swearing. It's not a high-classed, dignified sport requiring polite golf clapping, quiet somber commentators who speak only in the most rigid of manners, or an air of professionalism. It's a bunch of guys being good at something they do, with a community of fun loving, semi-mature nerds who act like it. If your friends dismiss it as being nerdy teenagers because someone occasionally says "fuck", I doubt they'd stick around once Tastosis started dropping "nerd baller" and guinea pig facts.
On May 25 2011 13:36 Falling wrote: No, I'm not saying that we necessarily need to start pulling in larger numbers. However, what this thread is bringing out that there are people within our community including mods that would like to share their passion with a few more friends, but would rather not due to the risk juvenile sounding comments coming from the casters.
It's not so much that people are hoping that SC will ever be up there with the pro-sports. But it's the word of mouth spreading that people are still hesitant about due to language issues.
Yeh I understand now, can't disagree with that.
I guess the best solution was whoever said to try and promote keeping the bigger tournament casts to more acceptable language as they're most likely to actually reach out to a wider audience and the social perceptions of gamers will be shown in a more positive light.
I'm not sure if this was already mentioned because I didn't have the time to read all 16 pages right now but I still feel like I need to answer to this topic.
So, here is my point: If you think your children are intelligent enough that watching StarCraft won't make them believe that using guns, killing people, war in general and all those things that are basically the content of a game of StarCraft from a very naive/non-abstract perspective are good things or at least you think watching this won't hurt them, how in all the world can you mind the usage of any kind of language associated with the very natural act of love??
I know that this is a general issue with America and I especially do respect that I can't tell you how to raise your children, but still I can ask you to think about it... At least in Europe we have the widespread opinion that love and sex in general is something good and violence in general is at least less good. ^^
Basically, what I am saying is: if the child/teenager can know the difference between watching StarCraft and actual violence it might also understand that „f***“ in the context of commentary is just a word people use to emphasize whatever they wanted to say either way.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
God forbid they suspect the SC2 community of having fun and having a friendly relationship with the players and casters.
Fun and friendly is great, but it comes in all varieties. All I'm saying is that the PG-13 SC broadcasts don't appeal to my non-gamer-type friends, and aren't at all helping me convince those friends that they shouldn't dismiss SC2 fandom as purely for nerdy teenagers.
It's just harder to say that SC2 is a legitimate competitive/business enterprise when top SC2 broadcasts involve penis jokes.
We are talking about professional Starcraft playing here. It will be dismissed by the closeminded and elderly regardless of swearing,
This attitude is all wrong. I believe SC2 can and should have mass appeal! It may take lots of time sure, but I am hoping that the SC2 scene in the US can be something like what the BW scene is in Korea. And I think a very small step towards that is cleaning up casts a bit.
to be honest, the issue you bring up only seems to matter in the US. I mean, if you look at the UK, a lot of show after like 10 pm are very mature in content and language, same in France, Australia too. It seems like the American culture is very focused on political correctness, but the rest of the world isn't.
On May 25 2011 14:00 PlaGuE_R wrote: to be honest, the issue you bring up only seems to matter in the US. I mean, if you look at the UK, a lot of show after like 10 pm are very mature in content and language, same in France, Australia too. It seems like the American culture is very focused on political correctness, but the rest of the world isn't.
just my 2 cents
I'm sure there is some truth to this, but there are a lot of countries that have somewhat similar standards/conventions as the US does for TV content (Korea comes to mind).
And my point is that I'd love to see SC2 as the type of content that can play to all audiences in prime time, not be relegated to relatively amateur streams or late night TV. I find the allure of SC2 going mainstream more appealing than swearing and dirty jokes.
I don't know if I would still watch these casters if it weren't for thier sometimes inappropriate jokes. I mean, I can watch a replay by myself, but for the most part I watch casters and tournaments so that I can enjoy the game and the commentary. Don't get me wrong, I love the game and analyzing it, but I know many of us tune in to many casters because of thier humor and style.
On May 25 2011 14:06 A.J. wrote: I don't know if I would still watch these casters if it weren't for thier sometimes inappropriate jokes. I mean, I can watch a replay by myself, but for the most part I watch casters and tournaments so that I can enjoy the game and the commentary. Don't get me wrong, I love the game and analyzing it, but I know many of us tune in to many casters because of thier humor and style.
but its easy to be funny/entertaining without being innapropraite. pretty sure tastosis never swear, its prob even in their contract, but they are by far the best casters.
I think that if E sports, and sc2, want to expand, a certain level of proffesionalism needs to be present in casting, i feel user streams are different, but major tournaments like nasl tsl etc need to have a high level of proffesionalism.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
Mmm, this is very close to how I feel.
edit: I also wanted to applaud the OP for bringing a good thread in the form of a very valid and pertinent question on the forums on TL, and tell some of you guys that are being a bit aggressive about a simple question, not to mention not even reading the OP, to back off. He wants a warning label, not widespread internet censorship.
edit2: If you weren't being aggressive, I want to make it clear, I wasn't pointing that in your direction.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
I can understand(but I don't agree) parents trying to shelter their children from crude language. But protecting your friends? Has it come to the point in the US that even grown ups are chocked and offended by the occasional cuss word? Or are you and your friends really young?
SC2 is never going to go mainstream like it is in Korea. The internet/video game crowd is always going to be who watches SC2 but thats still millions of potential viewers. Overall in this market I don't see how "cleaning up" is going to attract more viewers even though I cant even think of any casters that even cuss/ say offensive things that much.
Its up to the individual events to decide what kind of show they want to run and if you dont like it dont watch it. Its as simple as that.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
I can understand(but I don't agree) parents trying to shelter their children from crude language. But protecting your friends? Has it come to the point in the US that even grown ups are chocked and offended by the occasional cuss word? Or are you and your friends really young?
I think you miss the context of gaming at least in the US (and Canada for that matter). The stereotypical gamer is some immature, angry teenager that rages when he loses and talks foul. In a word. Juvenile. So no, it's not a matter of protection except, perhaps to protect the image of Starcraft. These outsiders hardly need another instance to confirm their stereotypes with a couple penis jokes. And would those jokes really be missed that much?
This has definitely been said before, likely even in this thread, but it needs repeating. This game contains brutal violence, and the objective of the game is to slaughter your opponent. What goes through your head when you think mass killings are appropriate for your children to watch, yet hearing the f-bomb is intolerable?
1) Culture differences: The people that are concerned about swearing are in fact a minority of Americans and some Canadians (if this thread is any indication) plus the occasional Brit. But most SC leagues are meant to appeal to a global community and thus this subsection is a very small community compared to the rest who find cursing not very offensive and often amusing (god bless Sweden). I get that some people are not happy about the cursing, but I don't get why this "lowest common denominator" should dictate the types of casts available in any format. America already has way too much protectionism in this theory and practice and I feel culturally we (as people not as SC2 community) should discourage this in favor of personal responsibility.
2) Professionalism: This arguments seems to be strange to me since it assumes that something is only professional if it adheres to the standards of the minority community I discussed above. Certainly in many American professional situations there is much cursing. Bosses use it, employees use it. It is pervasive. So the argument from professionalism seems strange to me.
3) Expansion of E-sports: Why do we assume that for E-sports to be "widely accepted" it must drop the cursing. Some of the most popular movies in recent years contain tons of cursing, sexual innuendo, etc. I would argue it is BECAUSE of this that they are so widely popular because it is pressing against the overly protective culture currently running (or ruining) America.
4) Ratings: I'm not a fan of ratings since they are just a mechanism of censorship (if you don't agree please see "This Film is Not Yet Rated"). But the idea of rating streams and casts is not super offensive to me (certainly not as offensive as a single "Fuck" is to the OP's wife). However, which standards do we apply? The lowest common denominator wouldn't even want words like "damn" in the cast.
5) Responsibility: I know that it takes some "effort" to pre-screen your children's entertainment to see if they meet your standards but no one says you are free from the responsibility of parenting. It is far too common in American society to think that if there is something offensive or threating out there that we should be protected from it by some agency/society/government. This teaches people to have no personal responsibility. Take responsibility for your life, your child's life, and don't expect others to submit to your standards just because they are your standards.
Suggestions:
The beginning of every cast should display a list of every possible curse word that is possibly offensive with a "check" or "x" to tell us if it appears in that cast. This way everyone will know what to expect. (Note: sarcasm)
If your child hears a curse word take the opportunity to explain the complex social issue in using curses in society.
On May 25 2011 15:15 Angry_Fetus wrote: This has definitely been said before, likely even in this thread, but it needs repeating. This game contains brutal violence, and the objective of the game is to slaughter your opponent. What goes through your head when you think mass killings are appropriate for your children to watch, yet hearing the f-bomb is intolerable?
What sort of movies do you watch where you would think Starcraft is particularly violent in any sort of intensity? I don't honestly believe you (and all the others that bring up this point) actually think this game is that violent. I think it's a disingenuous argument.
The violence in Starcraft although technically violent if played out in a movie is neither intense emotionally nor dramatically. The few biological beings that die are small and most of the killings are mechanical and all of them are fast.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. A PG rated movie such as Prince Caspian with absolutely no blood is more intense and more potentially emotionally traumatizing than Starcraft. There are no close ups (I would call the deaths microscopic), no prolonged death scenes, no Saving Private Ryan scenes. There is competitive tension as in who will win in a hockey game. But there is no dramatic tension on whether the main character will survive all the explosions all around them. It's only violent in an abstract sense.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
I can understand(but I don't agree) parents trying to shelter their children from crude language. But protecting your friends? Has it come to the point in the US that even grown ups are chocked and offended by the occasional cuss word? Or are you and your friends really young?
I think you miss the context of gaming at least in the US (and Canada for that matter). The stereotypical gamer is some immature, angry teenager that rages when he loses and talks foul. In a word. Juvenile. So no, it's not a matter of protection except, perhaps to protect the image of Starcraft. These outsiders hardly need another instance to confirm their stereotypes with a couple penis jokes. And would those jokes really be missed that much?
I have no idea what penis jokes you're referring to, I honestly can't think of many jokes that are so crass that they would put anyone I know off, nor do I think there's any vulgarity in casting that shouldn't be too surprising if you consider the basic age expectation of the game. I understand that more people are getting their kids into it, but to that I say, Great... but most casts will be age appropriate to basic T rating, with the little notes on the back. No, casters aren't reading the back of the Starcraft 2 box and making it their code, but that seems to be the general level that's seen and since that's the case, I don't see an issue.
I don't want a possibly altered experience because of unnecessary stipulations, most all casters, particularly for major events are appropriate as is, no one is dropping F-bombs every other minute, the most you get is one or two a cast. Everything seems pretty fine as is, as for individual player streams, most use the 18+ thing if I'm not mistaken, but if not, if there's a mic, almost every player will at some point, utter some expletive out of frustration while playing, this is up to an individual to screen and won't always be consistent.
If you want a label, just look at the back of the Starcraft 2 box, that's what you should expect from almost all casts and events. Some casts attempt to avoid swearing, but generally some slips through even there, if you want a safe zone for your kids, then I guess some casters could individually put "Family Safe" on their channels if they want, but no event will be 100% clean in that sense, and I'm absolutely fine with that.
To all the people who keep raising the "STARCRAFT 2 HAS KILLING AND GUNZ IN IT WAI U CARE BOUT SWARZ?" argument.... Perhaps you didn't have the time or patience to read through Falling's post, which is pretty spot on in my opinion. So, I've highlighted it for you.
On May 25 2011 12:58 Falling wrote: I don't get why people are so against providing more information.
At the bare minimum, the op is looking for a label on the cast essentially describing the language content to be expected. aka information. Not censoring your precious swear words. Heaven's knows why it's so important to retain 'fuck' and 'rape' in a cast. But you do, and the op wants to know if that's the case in each tournament.
Information.
Sure it's rated Teen. And people are going to have different standards with issues of swearing, violence, sex, and disturbing content. That's why I find the MPAA ratings on movies incredibly useless and tend to check imdb to see specifically what it's rated for. Because I consider some things more disturbing then others. And apparently the op does so as well.
I don't really understand the violence apologists as they seem to think SC2 is somehow incredibly violent- everything is so small and most is mechanical. As far as intense violence, a PG movie like Prince Caspian is more violent. The point is, when one watches a SC tournament, one reasonably expects very miniature amounts of violence of very little emotional intensity (no close-ups, dieing scenes, no Saving Private Ryan moments), but one does not necessarily expect to be greeted by f-bombs and players 'getting raped'.
So the op wishes to be informed ahead of time.
Information. What do you have against it?
As a complete aside and nothing to do with this particular thread, but:
On May 25 2011 01:04 warsinger wrote: but I'd like to hear what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue.
I'm no longer convinced this is the case. They're out there I'm sure, but sometimes I feel like they've been drowned out.
If you have the time, I would recommend catching up on Falling's posts (they start in the middle of page 16). He is putting into words what I've struggled to convey, thank you (Falling) for your insights.
I think some of the poster's in this forum just don't care whether Starcraft 2 (or esports) becomes mainstream or not outside of Korea. I feel like we need a Martin Luther King Jr. to spring up and give us all a motivational speech about the potential this game and community has to achieve great things for esports as a whole, but I think many still see this as something that will never be watched anywhere but the internet, in solitude or close company, never to be accepted by the masses. I will not believe this.
Edit: Reading back, I find my last paragraph validated by posts like these...
On May 25 2011 15:06 ShooTouts wrote: SC2 is never going to go mainstream like it is in Korea. The internet/video game crowd is always going to be who watches SC2 but thats still millions of potential viewers. Overall in this market I don't see how "cleaning up" is going to attract more viewers even though I cant even think of any casters that even cuss/ say offensive things that much.
Its up to the individual events to decide what kind of show they want to run and if you dont like it dont watch it. Its as simple as that.
When i read this topic i think of: http://satwcomic.com/anything-but-that Its a game where ppl ( well kind of, in 4 out of 9 match ups ) get slaughtered by alines or by tank fire, or by the overpowerd colossus... etc, the thingy is that its a war game, violent etc. Now i have no problem with kids playing violent games, hell i was playing Painkiller when i was 9 BUT i do believe that R rate language is much less harmful for a kid then violent images.
You can always watch tournaments/matches casted by day9 i think cuz he is the most G rate caster out there i believe.
Editors should not take the time to make a PG friendly cast when the game is not created for a PG audience. It says on the box the game is for 13+ and you still choose to let your children below that guideline play.
Most casting is not professionally done and the ones that are not targeted for 12 and under. Joe Rogan works for UFC but I always here him use expletives. Why is he allowed to do that? because his audience is for adults, not children and it is the same for Starcraft.
If you really don't want your kids to listen to people who use "inappropriate language" it is your responsibility to filter it out for them, not the casters.
On a personal level I am quite fine with casters being who they are and not some tv-friendly fake. When SC becomes that I will be much less enthusiastic to pay and listen to those people who wear facades so they can appeal to all ages.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
I can understand(but I don't agree) parents trying to shelter their children from crude language. But protecting your friends? Has it come to the point in the US that even grown ups are chocked and offended by the occasional cuss word? Or are you and your friends really young?
I don't think you're quite understanding the point people are trying to make.
It's not necessarily that its the cussing and swear words the offend per say (although it would be in the case of children), but that if we want Starcraft to become something that is appealing to watch by a larger audience, than asking that the behaviour and language of the casters be a bit more tasteful isn't really that much.
I feel people claiming that the only reason they tune into watch is because of silly penis joke, or offensive jokes, or player bashing etc - is certainly not a good enough reason to work to phase it out. Certainly on the streams for the main-events (user streams should be able to do as they wish).
Or at least a warning as the OP calls for.
Tasteless and Artosis never need to swear during their broadcasts, and I'd more than happy to recommend people to watch them commentate. How is the generally considered best casting duo for Starcraft 2 not a good standard to set?
On May 25 2011 15:15 Angry_Fetus wrote: This has definitely been said before, likely even in this thread, but it needs repeating. This game contains brutal violence, and the objective of the game is to slaughter your opponent. What goes through your head when you think mass killings are appropriate for your children to watch, yet hearing the f-bomb is intolerable?
What sort of movies do you watch where you would think Starcraft is particularly violent in any sort of intensity? I don't honestly believe you (and all the others that bring up this point) actually think this game is that violent. I think it's a disingenuous argument.
The violence in Starcraft although technically violent if played out in a movie is neither intense emotionally nor dramatically. The few biological beings that die are small and most of the killings are mechanical and all of them are fast.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. A PG rated movie such as Prince Caspian with absolutely no blood is more intense and more potentially emotionally traumatizing than Starcraft. There are no close ups (I would call the deaths microscopic), no prolonged death scenes, no Saving Private Ryan scenes. There is competitive tension as in who will win in a hockey game. But there is no dramatic tension on whether the main character will survive all the explosions all around them. It's only violent in an abstract sense.
I actually have to disagree with you, obviously it's not as violent as an R-rated movie and there's no prolonged death scene but it's not as tame is you make it out to be either. There is some stuff in the game that I never even noticed playing on my own that I noticed almost immediately when I was watching competitive Starcraft 2.
A marauder getting sliced in half by a zealot with blood spraying out, a marine getting roasted and writhing in pain before falling charred, any bio unit spasming as they're melted by acid or burned by a Colossus fire, getting literally splattered over the landscape by siege tank fire... I really did not notice some of this stuff while playing but it became really apparent while spectating.
In truth, f-bombs are probably the biggest offender and realistically they aren't that frequent.
But from your writing I think you and I could agree that at the very least the op's point about placing some sort of rating on each tournament could beneficial? I was mostly annoyed at the internet freedom fighters taking the op to task for daring to frown on f-bombs and the like.
But let's take your example, that because it's rated a certain way, then we should pad the rating to it's full potential. Is that really necessary? Sexually suggestive, for instance. It's rated T, so I guess we ought to have implied sex and tastefully covered nudity? (And for those 18+ streams, we ought have full on nudity.) Admittedly, this might attract a certain crowd... Anyways, the point is just because it has a certain label, does it need to be amped up in all areas, or can the already rated content stand on it's own and that's good enough?
I like the idea of mainstream tournaments keeping it relatively clean (there'll be slip up, but no need to make a big deal of it), but keep streams to streamer discretion. But even were this not the case, I don't see why tournaments couldn't provide a little more information on what sort of content people will be viewing.
PG - A PG-rated film may not be suitable for children. The MPAA says a PG-rated should be checked out by parents before allowing younger children to see the movie. There could be some profanity, some violence, or brief nudity, however there will not be any drug use in a PG film.
On May 25 2011 15:49 Vardant wrote: Prince Caspian - PG rated movie
PG - A PG-rated film may not be suitable for children. The MPAA says a PG-rated should be checked out by parents before allowing younger children to see the movie. There could be some profanity, some violence, or brief nudity, however there will not be any drug use in a PG film.
So, erm, yeah, there goes the argument.
The argument goes nowhere. It goes beyond the rating. It's an emotional connection to events, individuals, it's intensity and violence that have emotional effects. I cannot seriously say I have an emotional connection with any of the marines that get splashed by banelings. It's a game, and it's cartoon violence. Children understand this because that's obviously what it is. They don't name every marine, tell his backstory, show clips from his life, his family and children....
On May 25 2011 15:49 Vardant wrote: Prince Caspian - PG rated movie
PG - A PG-rated film may not be suitable for children. The MPAA says a PG-rated should be checked out by parents before allowing younger children to see the movie. There could be some profanity, some violence, or brief nudity, however there will not be any drug use in a PG film.
So, erm, yeah, there goes the argument.
All you did was interpret a statement somewhat lacking in detail to favor your position.
Anyway wasn't one of the arguments that kids already hear fuck and know about sex?
You can't have it both ways.
1) Culture differences: The people that are concerned about swearing 1. are in fact a minority of Americans and some Canadians (if this thread is any indication) plus the occasional Brit. But most SC leagues are meant to appeal to a global community and 2. thus this subsection is a very small community compared to the rest who find cursing not very offensive and often amusing (god bless Sweden). I get that some people are not happy about the cursing, but I don't get why this "lowest common denominator" should dictate the types of casts available in any format. America already has way too much protectionism in this theory and practice and I feel culturally we (as people not as SC2 community) should discourage this in favor of personal responsibility.
2. does not follow from 1. because the OP and many of us agreeing with him are not talking about the community as is, we are talking about the opportunities the community has to grow out of the gamer stereotype demographic.
"Personal responsibility" is a cop-out. And it's not even like anyone wants to set up standards, police casters, anything like that.
It's like no one can say they dislike anything about any aspect of the community without a bunch of people lining up to tell them why they are wrong and why they are inferior people for it. Even when the person dissenting (or whatever, that seems a bit strong) is as polite and mild-mannered as the OP.
You're a reactionary. This is how things are and they should stay that way because this way is better because [some kind of circular logic and unsupported assertions go here].
It's not an elitist attitude but more of a cliquish one; it doesn't really matter. The game is going to move more and more mainstream as it gains popularity whether you like it or not. If there's money to be made in it, that's inevitable.
On May 25 2011 15:46 Falling wrote: In truth, f-bombs are probably the biggest offender and realistically they aren't that frequent.
But from your writing I think you and I could agree that at the very least the op's point about placing some sort of rating on each tournament could beneficial? I was mostly annoyed at the internet freedom fighters taking the op to task for daring to frown on f-bombs and the like.
But let's take your example, that because it's rated a certain way, then we should pad the rating to it's full potential. Is that really necessary? Sexually suggestive, for instance. It's rated T, so I guess we ought to have implied sex and tastefully covered nudity? (And for those 18+ streams, we ought have full on nudity.) Admittedly, this might attract a certain crowd... Anyways, the point is just because it has a certain label, does it need to be amped up in all areas, or can the already rated content stand on it's own and that's good enough?
I like the idea of mainstream tournaments keeping it relatively clean (there'll be slip up, but no need to make a big deal of it), but keep streams to streamer discretion. But even were this not the case, I don't see why tournaments couldn't provide a little more information on what sort of content people will be viewing.
I'm fine with a label, but I feel like that'd it should essentially be the same for every single one... I can't think of a single tournament that would fall below or go far above:
T(13+) - For violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes.
Some may be towards the lower end of the spectrum, but it'd all still end up with the same rating with perhaps the "language" note going to "mild language" for some. The F-bombs are always something spontaneous and generally hilarious(Strelok's NASL interview comes to mind), so you can't really factor those in, when they happen it won't be because it was planned and I wouldn't support penalizing it, so there's no point in making the distinction. Just slap the above rating on every event page.
Put it as a small image on the bottom of every tournament/event page if you'd like, just like most games have it now. I don't see a problem. As for the way that tournaments, leagues and events are casted, it should remain unchanged in my opinion as far as content moderation is concerned.
On May 25 2011 15:55 dOofuS wrote: You're missing the point.
The point is, that even a PG movie should be watched by parents first. But somehow in this case, it should be different, because with more ratings involved, this will help e-sports to grow.
It's ridiculous to be honest. If anything, more ratings will do more harm than good. Especially, if someone wants special ratings, that allow graphic violence, but don't allow anything else. This is not the case anywhere else. You get both or none, because it doesn't make much sense otherwise.
If you don't agree with the ratings and don't feel, that the graphical violence in Starcraft is to be concerned about, then you're obviously a minority and it should be your responsibility to screen the content before hand.
I seriously would be bothered more about the violence in the game than about the language of the casters, when I would watch SC2 with my kids.
But having lived in the US for a year, I realize it's just their way of seeing things. Violence and gore is OK, but don't let them see any breast (nipple gate much?). In Germany it's the other way around. Give us breasts, but please don't kill someone in a cruel fashion and being a child of my culture, I would rather have my sons hear a FUCK or some sexual innuendo, than having the caster describe in cruel detail what that roach acid is doing to that marine.
So give each caster a rating. Non of that movie rating nonsense, but a clear scale of how often and in how much detail a caster describes sex, violence and swear words. Each responsible parent can look a casters stats up when tuning into a cast and then decide whether to mute the sound or not.
If you don't agree with the ratings and don't feel, that the graphical violence in Starcraft is to be concerned about, then you're obviously a minority and it should be your responsibility to screen the content before hand.
If your majority remains the majority, it will be a sign of an opportunity missed for a great game.
On May 25 2011 15:49 Vardant wrote: Prince Caspian - PG rated movie
PG - A PG-rated film may not be suitable for children. The MPAA says a PG-rated should be checked out by parents before allowing younger children to see the movie. There could be some profanity, some violence, or brief nudity, however there will not be any drug use in a PG film.
So, erm, yeah, there goes the argument.
As an aside, it's funny that they'll let all those other things into PG movies, but not drugs...
But no, my point stands. I'm challenging the notion that you think Starcraft is at all violent in the sense of intensity or emotionally traumatizing. Sufficiently young enough kids will find the T-rex's in Land Before Time (original) frightening and that's rated G.
But if you compare the emotional intensity of something like Prince Caspian to Starcraft. The only way I'd accept your counter-argument is if you truly believe 8 year olds should also not watch Prince Caspian or the Phantom Menace (also PG). If you can say that, then I'll concede that according to your standards, children should also not watch Starcraft tournaments. But if you're of the "kid's have heard and probably said worse at public schools" school of thought then I call bullshit on your argument.
@Mord Maybe I'm downplaying the violence contained within SC2. And you're right if you're paying attention, there are some more gruesome animations. However, I maintain that it's still not as emotionally trying as some big action PG film simply because it's so microscopic, there's no emotional investment as they function more as game pieces. I dunno, it just doesn't seem so in your face as any action movie I could think of.
On May 25 2011 15:46 Falling wrote: In truth, f-bombs are probably the biggest offender and realistically they aren't that frequent.
But from your writing I think you and I could agree that at the very least the op's point about placing some sort of rating on each tournament could beneficial? I was mostly annoyed at the internet freedom fighters taking the op to task for daring to frown on f-bombs and the like.
But let's take your example, that because it's rated a certain way, then we should pad the rating to it's full potential. Is that really necessary? Sexually suggestive, for instance. It's rated T, so I guess we ought to have implied sex and tastefully covered nudity? (And for those 18+ streams, we ought have full on nudity.) Admittedly, this might attract a certain crowd... Anyways, the point is just because it has a certain label, does it need to be amped up in all areas, or can the already rated content stand on it's own and that's good enough?
I like the idea of mainstream tournaments keeping it relatively clean (there'll be slip up, but no need to make a big deal of it), but keep streams to streamer discretion. But even were this not the case, I don't see why tournaments couldn't provide a little more information on what sort of content people will be viewing.
I'm fine with a label, but I feel like that'd it should essentially be the same for every single one... I can't think of a single tournament that would fall below or go far above:
T(13+) - For violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes.
Some may be towards the lower end of the spectrum, but it'd all still end up with the same rating with perhaps the "language" note going to "mild language" for some. The F-bombs are always something spontaneous and generally hilarious(Strelok's NASL interview comes to mind), so you can't really factor those in, when they happen it won't be because it was planned and I wouldn't support penalizing it, so there's no point in making the distinction. Just slap the above rating on every event page.
Put it as a small image on the bottom of every tournament/event page if you'd like, just like most games have it now. I don't see a problem. As for the way that tournaments, leagues and events are casted, it should remain unchanged in my opinion as far as content moderation is concerned.
Your T-13 label is essentially the same thing that is on the box of SC2. And what does every online game have as a disclaimer? Something along the lines of "experience online may not reflect the rating of this game." This carries over to any cast of the game.
I think any parent that feels protective need to use the basic rating guideline of SC2 as a starting point and find themselves what is appropriate for their children and not act entitled to special treatment when they are very marginal % of people watching game commentators and casts.
Firstly i want to say that i understand you are not trying to censor per se, but realize that in many countries just slapping a label on would be considered sensoring.
I have been reading most of this thread (got to page 10), and i agree with a lot of the posters. One being that it is true that this is mainly a problem in the US and nowhere else. Two is that casters all have their own personas, ive even heard fuck and shit from Artosis during GSL casts.
I believe though that one thing you have to realize is that as gamers we have grown up all of our lives saying these words. Especially "rape/d" In gaming that word has absolutely nothing to do with the physical act. Gaming in itself is a very niche market and now we add RTS which is much more niche. Just something i was thinking about while reading through this thread.
Edit: Just to be clear because i know somebody will bring this up. I am not saying that big time tournaments shouldn't censor the language some, but i think even Tastosis should be allowed to curse from time to time as it is just a general thing in the gaming community.
On May 25 2011 15:55 dOofuS wrote: You're missing the point.
The point is, that even a PG movie should be watched by parents first. But somehow in this case, it should be different, because with more ratings involved, this will help e-sports to grow.
It's ridiculous to be honest. If anything, more ratings will do more harm than good. Especially, if someone wants special ratings, that allow graphic violence, but don't allow anything else. This is not the case anywhere else. You get both or none, because it doesn't make much sense otherwise.
If you don't agree with the ratings and don't feel, that the graphical violence in Starcraft is to be concerned about, then you're obviously a minority and it should be your responsibility to screen the content before hand.
You're basing your argument entirely on the fact that MPAA's site says PG movies should be screened by parents. I do not know a single soul that believes this, PG is generally accepted as clean viewing. Obviously it varies from household to household, but this just goes to prove the point further. The rating works. No two people share the same moral values, but at least when they understand the ratings, they can make judgement calls about what movies are appropriate based on them. This could easily translate over to Starcraft 2 tournament commentary.
I am personally of the opinion however, that a rating system is unnecessary, and that casters should simply be like Tastosis, who even though they are not regulated at all by GOM on their language and content of their cast, they keep it clean because they genuinely care about the mass appeal of the sport they love.
On May 25 2011 15:36 dOofuS wrote: To all the people who keep raising the "STARCRAFT 2 HAS KILLING AND GUNZ IN IT WAI U CARE BOUT SWARZ?" argument.... Perhaps you didn't have the time or patience to read through Falling's post, which is pretty spot on in my opinion. So, I've highlighted it for you.
On May 25 2011 12:58 Falling wrote: I don't get why people are so against providing more information.
At the bare minimum, the op is looking for a label on the cast essentially describing the language content to be expected. aka information. Not censoring your precious swear words. Heaven's knows why it's so important to retain 'fuck' and 'rape' in a cast. But you do, and the op wants to know if that's the case in each tournament.
Information.
Sure it's rated Teen. And people are going to have different standards with issues of swearing, violence, sex, and disturbing content. That's why I find the MPAA ratings on movies incredibly useless and tend to check imdb to see specifically what it's rated for. Because I consider some things more disturbing then others. And apparently the op does so as well.
I don't really understand the violence apologists as they seem to think SC2 is somehow incredibly violent- everything is so small and most is mechanical. As far as intense violence, a PG movie like Prince Caspian is more violent. The point is, when one watches a SC tournament, one reasonably expects very miniature amounts of violence of very little emotional intensity (no close-ups, dieing scenes, no Saving Private Ryan moments), but one does not necessarily expect to be greeted by f-bombs and players 'getting raped'.
So the op wishes to be informed ahead of time.
Information. What do you have against it?
As a complete aside and nothing to do with this particular thread, but:
On May 25 2011 01:04 warsinger wrote: but I'd like to hear what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue.
I'm no longer convinced this is the case. They're out there I'm sure, but sometimes I feel like they've been drowned out.
If you have the time, I would recommend catching up on Falling's posts (they start in the middle of page 16). He is putting into words what I've struggled to convey, thank you (Falling) for your insights.
I think some of the poster's in this forum just don't care whether Starcraft 2 (or esports) becomes mainstream or not outside of Korea. I feel like we need a Martin Luther King Jr. to spring up and give us all a motivational speech about the potential this game and community has to achieve great things for esports as a whole, but I think many still see this as something that will never be watched anywhere but the internet, in solitude or close company, never to be accepted by the masses. I will not believe this.
Edit: Reading back, I find my last paragraph validated by posts like these...
On May 25 2011 15:06 ShooTouts wrote: SC2 is never going to go mainstream like it is in Korea. The internet/video game crowd is always going to be who watches SC2 but thats still millions of potential viewers. Overall in this market I don't see how "cleaning up" is going to attract more viewers even though I cant even think of any casters that even cuss/ say offensive things that much.
Its up to the individual events to decide what kind of show they want to run and if you dont like it dont watch it. Its as simple as that.
The argument goes both ways. The Starcraft violence is mild. So is swearing in casts. I haven't yet seen "FUCKING SHIT YOU CUNTS DID YOU SEE THEM MOTHERFUCKING RAPLEINGS TEAR INTO THAT MARINES ASSHOLE LIKE I DID TO YO MAMMAS PUSSY?" Really, how often do casters swear anyway? It's rarely noticeable, never excessive, and always appropriate for the moment if it happens. As for the accessibility being affected by the oh so gratuitous swearing, I'd put that more to the ingrained "nerd culture" in it, as much as I hate the term. The most obvious examples would be Tastosis, but old videogame comparisons and jokes are almost universal in casting. Starcraft will appeal to gamers, but few others. This is not a bad thing. It's a very, very large demographic. eSports is expanding, but it's still nowhere near the prevalence of physical sports, because a large amount of people still have skewed perspectives of it, mostly due to age. Eventually, if everything goes well, it'll eventually have the airtime we desire. That time's not now. It's going to take a long, long time for western societies to jump on the bandwagon, why start regulating it for the end goal now, who see no appeal as is, and risk alienating our current audience?
On May 25 2011 15:49 Vardant wrote: Prince Caspian - PG rated movie
PG - A PG-rated film may not be suitable for children. The MPAA says a PG-rated should be checked out by parents before allowing younger children to see the movie. There could be some profanity, some violence, or brief nudity, however there will not be any drug use in a PG film.
So, erm, yeah, there goes the argument.
As an aside, it's funny that they'll let all those other things into PG movies, but not drugs...
But no, my point stands. I'm challenging the notion that you think Starcraft is at all violent in the sense of intensity or emotionally traumatizing. Sufficiently young enough kids will find the T-rex's in Land Before Time (original) frightening and that's rated G.
But if you compare the emotional intensity of something like Prince Caspian to Starcraft. The only way I'd accept your counter-argument is if you truly believe 8 year olds should also not watch Prince Caspian or the Phantom Menace (also PG). If you can say that, then I'll concede that according to your standards, children should also not watch Starcraft tournaments. But if you're of the "kid's have heard and probably said worse at public schools" school of thought then I call bullshit on your argument.
@Mord Maybe I'm downplaying the violence contained within SC2. And you're right if you're paying attention, there are some more gruesome animations. However, I maintain that it's still not as emotionally trying as some big action PG film simply because it's so microscopic, there's no emotional investment as they function more as game pieces. I dunno, it just doesn't seem so in your face as any action movie I could think of.
In terms of the emotional connection to random marines as opposed to fleshed out characters I suppose... but that's not really the point, visually the violence and gore is present. The rating is there, so we have an existing label, if you disagree with the rating of the game, that's one thing but I think it's appropriate. I also thing pretty much all casts are age appropriate in regards to the game.
But like I said in an earlier post, if you want a simple tag at the bottom... I'd be fine with that, but it would pretty much be the same for every event.
On May 25 2011 15:46 Falling wrote: In truth, f-bombs are probably the biggest offender and realistically they aren't that frequent.
But from your writing I think you and I could agree that at the very least the op's point about placing some sort of rating on each tournament could beneficial? I was mostly annoyed at the internet freedom fighters taking the op to task for daring to frown on f-bombs and the like.
But let's take your example, that because it's rated a certain way, then we should pad the rating to it's full potential. Is that really necessary? Sexually suggestive, for instance. It's rated T, so I guess we ought to have implied sex and tastefully covered nudity? (And for those 18+ streams, we ought have full on nudity.) Admittedly, this might attract a certain crowd... Anyways, the point is just because it has a certain label, does it need to be amped up in all areas, or can the already rated content stand on it's own and that's good enough?
I like the idea of mainstream tournaments keeping it relatively clean (there'll be slip up, but no need to make a big deal of it), but keep streams to streamer discretion. But even were this not the case, I don't see why tournaments couldn't provide a little more information on what sort of content people will be viewing.
I'm fine with a label, but I feel like that'd it should essentially be the same for every single one... I can't think of a single tournament that would fall below or go far above:
T(13+) - For violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes.
Some may be towards the lower end of the spectrum, but it'd all still end up with the same rating with perhaps the "language" note going to "mild language" for some. The F-bombs are always something spontaneous and generally hilarious(Strelok's NASL interview comes to mind), so you can't really factor those in, when they happen it won't be because it was planned and I wouldn't support penalizing it, so there's no point in making the distinction. Just slap the above rating on every event page.
Put it as a small image on the bottom of every tournament/event page if you'd like, just like most games have it now. I don't see a problem. As for the way that tournaments, leagues and events are casted, it should remain unchanged in my opinion as far as content moderation is concerned.
Your T-13 label is essentially the same thing that is on the box of SC2. And what does every online game have as a disclaimer? Something along the lines of "experience online may not reflect the rating of this game." This carries over to any cast of the game.
I think any parent that feels protective need to use the basic rating guideline of SC2 as a starting point and find themselves what is appropriate for their children and not act entitled to special treatment when they are very marginal % of people watching game commentators and casts.
This is pretty much what I've been saying... That said, if people want an extra label, just put the SC2 rating at the bottom of the tournament page and I'd have no problem with that.
Parent should expect the content of a cast, to reflect the base-line rating of the game, no tournament really exceeds that.
There are 20+ people in this thread who'd like to see some label or warning on the streams. Why don't you spend 30 minutes to set up a page where you can slap whatever ratings on whichever stream you see fit? Bam! Problem solved. Promote it on the community sites and concerned parents who make an wffort will find it in no time.
It's a simple thing to do, why do you expect others to do it for you?
NASL, IPL, GSL, MLG and other large prize pool professional style events should keep the casting clean. SotG is great and should be left to operate on JPs standards.
My personal honest opinion is that there is no issue at all with the content. So your kids hear the F-word on TV, who cares? They will hear it somewhere eventually, if you have a problem with your kids using it it's up to YOUR parenting to teach them not to. Shielding them from the word is futile.
As for sexual references, I would assume that if the kids are old enough to understand them, it's not a bad thing. There are probably a fine line here though and I wouldn't be surprised if the line is crossed hardcore sometimes by some casters which would definitely be a bad thing.
Overall though, teach your kids not to swear and you won't have a problem with them hearing swearwords.
To go from a completely different direction, if you're so uptight about your kids upbringing, why are you letting them watch SC2? It's a very violent game, I'd think it was more important to you that your children aren't watching marines shoot other marines than having a caster use the f-word when something really exciting happens.
On May 25 2011 16:41 Longshank wrote: There are 20+ people in this thread who'd like to see some label or warning on the streams. Why don't you spend 30 minutes to set up a page where you can slap whatever ratings on whichever stream you see fit? Bam! Problem solved. Promote it on the community sites and concerned parents who make an wffort will find it in no time.
It's a simple thing to do, why do you expect others to do it for you?
edit: Or just make a running thread here on TL.
The community can report on past content, but you can't expect the community to know in advance, what a tournament will allow in terms of content. Even someone like IPL, as professional as their broadcasts are, can't control the commentary of the casters, specifically for live broadcasts.
There's really no way to rate it, unless the caster(s) themselves clearly define their personal 'rating'.
So the point is, the casting community as a whole, if it wants to continue to progress the industry that provides for them, should consider for themselves whether to adopt these standards. The two most successful casters (Tasteless and Artosis) are just as clean or cleaner than most casters, and I don't think that's a coincidence.
I completely agree with the OP. However, somethings I believe should remain unchanged. In particular Day[J]'s Dailies where the fucks are like a rare occasion and are warranted, and of course SotG, where that guy who's controlled by UnControlable trolls a lot. League casts thou - should learn from GSL. There was one time a fuck has been heard at the GSL and it was from a player (LiquidJinro) and not from the casters. And again, it was a well deserved fuck at that time and place, so I'm pretty sure everyone let it slip with a smile. "Transitioning into loosing your whole fucking base" is very fit for Funday Monday, but not for NASL, IPL, DreamHack or MLG.
On May 25 2011 01:04 warsinger wrote: I just composed this as an email to State of the Game. Hope they address it, but I'd like to hear what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue.
I am a father of 2 boys (12 and 8) and we love watching Starcraft casts and tournaments. We watch most of NASL, TSL, IPL and occasionally GSL as well as lots of independent casts and streams. My oldest son and I have attended both MLG Dallas 2010 & 2011.
My question is about maturity level of the casting. Using MPAA ratings for comparison some casters I can count on to use PG language and jokes and some go all the way up to R level (or beyond). I try to learn the various styles and "ratings" for each caster and tournament and filter appropriately. If I know a caster is likely to drop F-bombs I will listen solo or maybe watch it on mute with the kids. Then there are casts that are mostly clean but occasionally use some harsher language or sexually oriented jokes (looking at you Gretorp). Another situation is during post game interviews with the players. 5 seconds into the TSL3 championship post game interview, the F-bomb emerges after a pretty clean cast. I reached for the mute button very quickly. Glad my wife didn't hear it.
I'm not trying to complain or say there should be any censorship, but I would like to hear your discussion on some sort of mechanism for determining what the age appropriateness of specific tournament casts will be. Would it be possible to have some sort of rating system so that when tuning in to watch a tournament I can know that the casters will or will not be using certain types of language?
Another idea is a PG edited version where someone has taken the time to bleep out parts of the cast (like the TV version of an R movie). I'd love to have this for something like the Day9 Daily but I know such things take time and money. Can you imagine an edited version of SOTG?
As esports continues to grow I think this may be a barrier to entry for some like myself who are trying to protect the minds and ears of our little children at least for a few more years. I realize my standards are quite different from many but there are established standards for the major TV networks. Would a model like this help or hurt esports development?
Love to hear your thoughts.
Warsinger Bronze Division Braxis Zeta
Looks like you brought me out of lurking.
First of all, I'd like to thank you for exposing your sons to such an enriching game. It shares many similarities to chess and other strategy games. I would argue its very stimulating for the mind and helps you think on multiple levels.
Second, websites like justin.tv do have mature filters. They state that some of the material may be inappropriate for younger viewers, i.e. Steven Bonnell's stream and DJWheats stream both have these filters. I don't believe there has been any official statement on this, but I believe that the casters and spokespeople for the MLG try to act as professionally as possible. This includes not going off the hook with things like swearing or sexual jokes.
While I would agree a rating system could be necessary, I would ask you, where do we draw the line? How many times is someone allowed to swear? What about when players swear? Many other people from other countries also watch these streams. Would we impose the same censorship on them that we would on us Americans? I should hope not. If the casts are absolutely riddled with curse words and sexual innuendo it doesn't work. People don't want to watch it because its not entertaining, its just stupid.
To address whether or not the standard model for TV broadcasts, they actually do have very lewd and foul language. I could search youtube for clips to prove my point, but I think it speaks for itself. Furthermore, this game has gore in it. Plenty of it too when your zergling chews through a marine, a hatchery bleeds, or when roaches are splattered by tank fire. I would think it would be more appropriate to as you said "protect" the minds of your children from this violence as much as it would the strong language present in the broadcasts of this game.
As for my final point I would ask you this: your kids will be exposed to this language anyway. When I was your kids age, I entered middle school. All we did was curse and swear at each other and our teachers. It would be better if you sat your kids down and explained when its appropriate to use strong language rather than to consider ratings or censorship.
ACB: M BBFC: 15[6] ESRB: T GRB: 12+ (censored) 18+ (uncensored) PEGI: 16+
Your kids should not be watching starcraft 2. I am sorry but i hate these kinds of topics that the OP is talking about. The game is for adult/teens. Another thing is your kids wont even understand the language that they use and if you make a big deal out of it (bu muting it or covering their ears or something) they will understand that its a big deal and remember that word. E-sports its not ment to be professional, where all gamers, where all ment to have fun and relax.
I think you're looking at this at a totally wrong point of view. Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty is rated T (ESRB), other rating systems have it rated 16+, elsewhere in europe. If you have problem w/ the sexual innuendo's that will fly way above your kids head (they won't understand it), but don't have a problem w/ marines catching on fire from hellions, and them blowing up w/ guts and bits from siegetank shot. I believe you have your priorities as a parent way off.
First off, I agree with you on the majority of your post.
I think there is a big difference between someone casting an event, and an independent stream. I think if someone is casting an event the promotion they are casting for should be able to rely on a certain degree of professionalism. Just as they should be able to rely on their players to set a positive example for the youth and players watching.
However, I think when it comes to watching independent streams that is the streamers chance to show who they are, and some people do curse like sailors. However, there is others out there like Sheth for example, that are very courteous and respectful while he is streaming his private games.
On May 25 2011 16:41 Longshank wrote: There are 20+ people in this thread who'd like to see some label or warning on the streams. Why don't you spend 30 minutes to set up a page where you can slap whatever ratings on whichever stream you see fit? Bam! Problem solved. Promote it on the community sites and concerned parents who make an wffort will find it in no time.
It's a simple thing to do, why do you expect others to do it for you?
edit: Or just make a running thread here on TL.
The community can report on past content, but you can't expect the community to know in advance, what a tournament will allow in terms of content. Even someone like IPL, as professional as their broadcasts are, can't control the commentary of the casters, specifically for live broadcasts.
There's really no way to rate it, unless the caster(s) themselves clearly define their personal 'rating'.
Well the OP was asking for a rating system - if it's impossible to rate then I'm not sure how to get this any further. Events and casters are free to rate themself I guess but good luck enforcing it in Europe, censorship and restrictions aren't very popular here.
On May 25 2011 17:53 wei2coolman wrote: I think you're looking at this at a totally wrong point of view. Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty is rated T (ESRB), other rating systems have it rated 16+, elsewhere in europe. If you have problem w/ the sexual innuendo's that will fly way above your kids head (they won't understand it), but don't have a problem w/ marines catching on fire from hellions, and them blowing up w/ guts and bits from siegetank shot. I believe you have your priorities as a parent way off.
I dont know the UK rating system but the german version is rated 12+. and as a parent I wouldnt have a problem when my kids play sc2. in my eyes even 12+ is a joke (when I was at that age it was normal for everyone to play half life etc).
But a different thing is the language. I must say that I haven't heard any "bad" language from any professional caster (GSL, MLG, IEM/ESL, TSL), but I might be wrong since I don't concentrate on this too much. But I agree that casters should be aware that kids might be watching and use their language appropriately.
Completely different in my eyes are shows like Stotg or user streams - in that case every person should just act normal.
I always find it fun that people go to the mature languages first in this sort of discussions, especially seeing marauders literally get cleaved in half by zealots, people exploding in mists of blood and such. Those things affect kids a helluva lot more than someone saying fuck when the kid is 8 and has no clue what it means. Like someone else said, it only becomes an interesting word when you start covering it up.
I wholeheartedly disagree with you. There is nothing wrong with swear words. They're just words. Why can we say stuff like 'This work day was torture for me!' and not 'Fuck yeah, this is awesome!'. Notice how torture is something horrible, while fuck is arguably a very nice thing, not to mention it is required for the survival of mankind.
Seriously, sooner or later you children are going to hear the 'F-word'. Just teach them to not swear at every little thing, but there is nothing wrong with swearing once in a while, for expressing yourself a little stronger (if the situation is appropriate).
I'll sure as hell won't be 'protecting' my children from swear words. I'll be teaching them how to handle them responsibly.
I'm sorry but this is so typical of US values. You are upset over some swear words in a game where things get constantly splattered by tanks, lightning storms or suicide bombing acid ball things and want to censor it for everyone else too. Lovely.
Extremely violent movies and stuff are fine, but when someone shows a boob (OH MY GOD! A BOOB!) or when someone says fuck, it's BEEP or BLUR.
I'm sorry but this is so typical of US values. You are upset over some swear words in a game where things get constantly splattered by tanks, lightning storms or suicide bombing acid ball things and want to censor it for everyone else too. Lovely.
I dont want my content censored because someone else might have kids watching. If you dont want your kids to hear/see it turn it the fuck off and stop attempting to infringe on others freedom.
when i was young and my dad wanted to watch something he found inappropriate, he send me away or watched it when I was sleeping. I can't see why you can't apply the same technique. you even have the benefit of vods. if you want your kid to watch sc2, find someone who doesn't swear...hd, husky, painuser etc.
The biggest problem with this discussion is the vast cultural difference of the people that actually watches this game. Brood War had it easy, since they can just tailor it perfectly for koreans. Starcraft 2 on the other hand is vastly more international, and with this comes differences.
In Norway you'd be hard pressed to find people who aren't or hasn't been gamers of any sort, so the "nerdy juvenile teenager" stereotype basicly fits the entire population. Swearing is fucking normal around here and no one bats an eye at it, and it's being shown on broadcasts all the time.
My biggest problem with this is that e-sport is an internet thing, and as a person who has grown up on the internet, people here are usually more thick-skinned and more desensitized about everything really. Violence, swearing or sex, it's all over the net. So let your kids watch tv or whatever and let us have our stereotypical fun. When they're old enough for you to consider letting them surf around as much as they want on the net, that's when you should let them get integrated in the language too. Don't fuck over us europeans just because you americans are afraid of simple words that can be used as proper adjectives when something really cool happends.
On May 25 2011 21:19 kaztah wrote: The biggest problem with this discussion is the vast cultural difference of the people that actually watches this game. Brood War had it easy, since they can just tailor it perfectly for koreans. Starcraft 2 on the other hand is vastly more international, and with this comes differences.
In Norway you'd be hard pressed to find people who aren't or hasn't been gamers of any sort, so the "nerdy juvenile teenager" stereotype basicly fits the entire population. Swearing is fucking normal around here and no one bats an eye at it, and it's being shown on broadcasts all the time.
My biggest problem with this is that e-sport is an internet thing, and as a person who has grown up on the internet, people here are usually more thick-skinned and more desensitized about everything really. Violence, swearing or sex, it's all over the net. So let your kids watch tv or whatever and let us have our stereotypical fun. When they're old enough for you to consider letting them surf around as much as they want on the net, that's when you should let them get integrated in the language too. Don't fuck over us europeans just because you americans are afraid of simple words that can be used as proper adjectives when something really cool happends.
This! Seriously, it's just words, and words they will hear anyway. As many have pointed out the game isn't made for kids either, I would hate it if every cast got censored because someone took offense.. I'm offended by the fact that everyone is offended by everything (lol). Soon we won't be able to say a word anywhere because someone might be offended. It's ridiculous.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
This is a good point and is why this type of thing should not be overlooked.
On May 25 2011 12:11 JWD wrote: I agree with OP for the simple reason that I am embarrassed to recommend SC2 streams to my friends because I know there's a substantial chance they'll flip on the program and hear gratuitous cursing or a second-grade-level joke.
God bless DJWheat, but the one day I tweeted to recommend TSL on my personal twitter he opened the broadcast with "What up bitches??" That is not the impression I wanted to give my friends of what the SC2 scene is like.
This is a good point and is why this type of thing should not be overlooked.
What impression is that giving that you don't want to give? I can't see how that would be offensive or off-putting to anyone of my friends, I'm wondering why it would be off-puting to yours? This really makes no sense to me, I can't see how anyone of my friends would be offended by something as simple as the opening of "What up bitches"...
I feel like some of you are really blowing the content of the casts out of proportion, I honestly can't think of anything that's disproportionate in terms of age expectation to what's being seen on screen.
I've noticed a majority of professional casters avoid stepping over the line when it comes to profanity. I follow that model myself. There are always better ways of saying things.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote: "What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
Based on the context of those words, they most likely come at the start of something. Start of the cast, the start of the discussion after a game, something. Unfortunately, having those 4 words right there would make it most memorable.
I agree that people take it too seriously. It's just that, sometimes it is right to take it seriously. I don't expect any profanity to occur while I'm watching the finals of the GSL, only because of the super high production value and the extreme broad audience it is catering to. For casts that are more audience specific, or of less critical importance, then I wouldn't give a crap.
I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise.
On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote: Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
/heartstops
Thanks, Wheat. I am eager to hear your thoughts and I appreciate the thoughts of the others who are casters who have responded to this thread. Even if the ultimate answers are not exactly what I want, I know the professional Starcrafters will have to address these and other issues as the community broadens and grows.
I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise.
Profanity in itself is just a stupid concept. If you aren't using profanity to insult others, what's the problem? They're just words that intensify a feeling, like "It's a beautiful sunset" or "It's a fucking awesome match". Words are just that, words, being offended by someone saying 'fuck' is just stupid. How can you be offended by that? Are you offended by the literal act it represents? What do you think your parents did? If anything it's the most beautiful thing in the world and somehow people are 'offended' by it.
On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote: "What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
Based on the context of those words, they most likely come at the start of something. Start of the cast, the start of the discussion after a game, something. Unfortunately, having those 4 words right there would make it most memorable.
I agree that people take it too seriously. It's just that, sometimes it is right to take it seriously. I don't expect any profanity to occur while I'm watching the finals of the GSL, only because of the super high production value and the extreme broad audience it is catering to. For casts that are more audience specific, or of less critical importance, then I wouldn't give a crap.
I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise.
In regards to the GSL, they're catering to a mainly different audience in terms of expectations in Korea. The original version of Starcraft 2 was rated Adults Only for foul language unit Blizzard changed it, toned it down, they have different expectations and the casting is appropriate to that level more or less. Even so, there are some jokes and statements("I think I just had an orgasm") that could be considered age appropriate for the audience of the game, but not for an 8 or 12 year old. No less so than any of the innuendo on the NASL though, so I don't see an issue.
No major event is completely free of this, it's all age-appropriate to the rating of the game, look at the back of the fucking game, that's the level of content you're getting from these casts because that's the expectation as it should be.
There's nothing wrong with, "Whats up bitches?", it's age appropriate to the content of the game.
I understand that the OP may want a label, but all I'm saying is you'd have to label everything and every event, from NASL, to GSL, to TSL roughly the same...
T for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes.
So and assume that's the rating for every event.
The current casting is age appropriate for anyone who is watching the game in my opinion. It's perfectly fine.
On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote: "What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
Based on the context of those words, they most likely come at the start of something. Start of the cast, the start of the discussion after a game, something. Unfortunately, having those 4 words right there would make it most memorable.
I agree that people take it too seriously. It's just that, sometimes it is right to take it seriously. I don't expect any profanity to occur while I'm watching the finals of the GSL, only because of the super high production value and the extreme broad audience it is catering to. For casts that are more audience specific, or of less critical importance, then I wouldn't give a crap.
I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise.
In regards to the GSL, they're catering to a mainly different audience in terms of expectations in Korea. The original version of Starcraft 2 was rated Adults Only for foul language unit Blizzard changed it, toned it down, they have different expectations and the casting is appropriate to that level more or less. Even so, there are some jokes and statements("I think I just had an orgasm") that could be considered age appropriate for the audience of the game, but not for an 8 or 12 year old. No less so than any of the innuendo on the NASL though, so I don't see an issue.
No major event is completely free of this, it's all age-appropriate to the rating of the game, look at the back of the fucking game, that's the level of content you're getting from these casts because that's the expectation as it should be.
There's nothing wrong with, "Whats up bitches?", it's age appropriate to the content of the game.
I understand that the OP may want a label, but all I'm saying is you'd have to label everything and every event, from NASL, to GSL, to TSL roughly the same...
T for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes.
So and assume that's the rating for every event.
The current casting is age appropriate for anyone who is watching the game in my opinion. It's perfectly fine.
Regarding the bit you have about the GSL - yes and no. Tastosis does not cater to the audience in Korea. However, they do have to give a show of professionalism. I don't think professionalism immediately removes "innuendos" and "Tasteless jokes" (teehee) from consideration, but cursing is something else. Yes, saying "what's up, bitches" is different from "you're a bitch". However, still using it feel unprofessional in my opinion. There are better ways to express that sort of entry/joke.
Again, it's not such a big deal when you target your audience to be a certain group (for example, the group that plays T rated games)- the group who can take such comments without care. But once you start trying to expand to more people, then considerations should be made, no?
I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise.
Profanity in itself is just a stupid concept. If you aren't using profanity to insult others, what's the problem? They're just words that intensify a feeling, like "It's a beautiful sunset" or "It's a fucking awesome match". Words are just that, words, being offended by someone saying 'fuck' is just stupid. How can you be offended by that? Are you offended by the literal act it represents? What do you think your parents did? If anything it's the most beautiful thing in the world and somehow people are 'offended' by it.
Profanity can be used to express indirect anger or frustration. "This fucking ketchup bottle will NOT OPEN."
Regarding your second point: If the words have a history and context of being insulting, and the use of it is primarily to insult, how can you tell me not to be offended? When I have someone belligerent tell me, "FUCK YOUR MOTHER", well shit, I'm going to be offended.
And before anyone else brings up that "Fuck - word context" video from before - what I am saying is exactly what that video is doing. Should we be making the word "mainstream"? My feeling is no. Maybe you feel otherwise =\
On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote: "What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
Based on the context of those words, they most likely come at the start of something. Start of the cast, the start of the discussion after a game, something. Unfortunately, having those 4 words right there would make it most memorable.
I agree that people take it too seriously. It's just that, sometimes it is right to take it seriously. I don't expect any profanity to occur while I'm watching the finals of the GSL, only because of the super high production value and the extreme broad audience it is catering to. For casts that are more audience specific, or of less critical importance, then I wouldn't give a crap.
I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise.
In regards to the GSL, they're catering to a mainly different audience in terms of expectations in Korea. The original version of Starcraft 2 was rated Adults Only for foul language unit Blizzard changed it, toned it down, they have different expectations and the casting is appropriate to that level more or less. Even so, there are some jokes and statements("I think I just had an orgasm") that could be considered age appropriate for the audience of the game, but not for an 8 or 12 year old. No less so than any of the innuendo on the NASL though, so I don't see an issue.
No major event is completely free of this, it's all age-appropriate to the rating of the game, look at the back of the fucking game, that's the level of content you're getting from these casts because that's the expectation as it should be.
There's nothing wrong with, "Whats up bitches?", it's age appropriate to the content of the game.
I understand that the OP may want a label, but all I'm saying is you'd have to label everything and every event, from NASL, to GSL, to TSL roughly the same...
T for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes.
So and assume that's the rating for every event.
The current casting is age appropriate for anyone who is watching the game in my opinion. It's perfectly fine.
Regarding the bit you have about the GSL - yes and no. Tastosis does not cater to the audience in Korea. However, they do have to give a show of professionalism. I don't think professionalism immediately removes "innuendos" and "Tasteless jokes" (teehee) from consideration, but cursing is something else. Yes, saying "what's up, bitches" is different from "you're a bitch". However, still using it feel unprofessional in my opinion. There are better ways to express that sort of entry/joke.
Again, it's not such a big deal when you target your audience to be a certain group (for example, the group that plays T rated games)- the group who can take such comments without care. But once you start trying to expand to more people, then considerations should be made, no?
I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise.
Profanity in itself is just a stupid concept. If you aren't using profanity to insult others, what's the problem? They're just words that intensify a feeling, like "It's a beautiful sunset" or "It's a fucking awesome match". Words are just that, words, being offended by someone saying 'fuck' is just stupid. How can you be offended by that? Are you offended by the literal act it represents? What do you think your parents did? If anything it's the most beautiful thing in the world and somehow people are 'offended' by it.
Profanity can be used to express indirect anger or frustration. "This fucking ketchup bottle will NOT OPEN."
Regarding your second point: If the words have a history and context of being insulting, and the use of it is primarily to insult, how can you tell me not to be offended? When I have someone belligerent tell me, "FUCK YOUR MOTHER", well shit, I'm going to be offended.
And before anyone else brings up that "Fuck - word context" video from before - what I am saying is exactly what that video is doing. Should we be making the word "mainstream"? My feeling is no. Maybe you feel otherwise =\
I would say "No", in regards to this case.
The visual content they're seeing is still consistent to the rating you would expect, if a parent is fine with violence but not swearing that's their call, but the content in general is age appropriate to what's being seen on screen, and as I said, you can consider the T-rating with notes your point of reference, and I'd be fine with putting that at the bottom of tournament pages if that's really wanted, it does no harm.
I agree with the OPs concern about language. The major casters should keep it clean. I don't let my kids (7&10) watch the Day[9] Daily anymore. He was (mostly) clean at the beginning, but got foul mouthed over the last while.
The younger kids (and the geek dads that encourage them) are the future of eSports.
As long as the casters talk like teenage boys, that's the only audience they will appeal to, and the only audience eSports will get.
Hm... why is it that americans have a problem when their kids hear the f-word, but see absolutely no problem letting their kids watch a scene where a dark templar slices a ghost literally in half, splattering blood everywhere, his screams piercing the air? Or a group of marines being corned by a swarm of zerglings who rip them apart mercilessly, drowning the floor in their blood?
I agree with the OP. I'm a parent 24/7 (2yr old, another on the way) and I'd like to continue to enjoy SC2 content regardless of that fact. Like any other sporting event, I expect to be able to watch hockey (Go Canucks Go) minus the f-bombs and to be honest off coloured jokes. I can turn on any sports channel or radio talk show and get generally explicative free content. I treat SC2 similar way, often streaming something as background noise as I'm doing something else and not actively watching it. I know the community players well enough that I generally know what is safe and isn't. But an extra tool would be helpful, pretty certain GOM, NASL, IPL and MLG are all going to be clean or clean enough for me to have on.
Is that smaller tournament cast by relative unknowns going to be clean? From experience, probably not so i'm not going to fire it up. Is State of the Game going to be clean, fuck no and it shouldn't be and I know what I'm getting and love it. However is Inside the Game? I've watched the episodes, but I'm not sure where it's trying to fall, it's got Geoff and it's the middle of the day and starts with 'what up biatches'. But I can't really recall a lot of profanity so I think it's safe-ish at least.
But as a general rule, just shut the fuck up with your profanity. I don't want to hear it whether I have a kid or not.
On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote: "What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
You won't find those words in any mainstream coverage about any mainstream sport.
I think there SHOULD be foul-mouthed casters running internet shows that appeal to people who like that sort of thing.
BUT I think there should ALSO be shows/casts that parents can be comfortable letting their 7 yr old future GSL winner watch. Especially more improve-your-game sorts of shows. The current scene is dominated by the former.
IDEA - someone should make a list of kid friendly casters and shows.
On May 26 2011 01:25 CrushDog5 wrote: I agree with the OPs concern about language. The major casters should keep it clean. I don't let my kids (7&10) watch the Day[9] Daily anymore. He was (mostly) clean at the beginning, but got foul mouthed over the last while.
The younger kids (and the geek dads that encourage them) are the future of eSports.
As long as the casters talk like teenage boys, that's the only audience they will appeal to, and the only audience eSports will get.
I disagree.
It's like taking your kids to a PG-13 movie, and then being pissed that there was some profanity in addition to people being blown up all over the the place. It's age appropriate to the content on screen, I think casters are generally doing a fine job in regards to keeping it appropriate. If you're fine with one aspect(violence) but not another(mild profanity) then you can take the time for find specific casters for that, and I'd encourage anyone who wants to push such a tag to go for it.
But a far as ANY event goes, it has always been and should always be age appropriate to the content of the game.
It's an individual perturbation to the profanity, while not minding the violence. I think that all event casting I've seen so far has been age appropriate.
The violence would still earn it the same rating and then it would have just been down to parent who were okay with that but not the rest of the content and wanted to watch it with their kids, that becomes cultural, some people are fine with violence but not profanity, some are fine with profanity but not violence. The content as a whole is age appropriate for it's rating.
On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote: "What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
Thank you WHEAT. I was waiting for someone to post this. I'm not a father so using mature language and mature jokes come natural and I don't think anything of them. I view this as I do music. Censorship takes away from what the artist was saying. Your "What is up bitches!" is your catch line and something people can identify with being as you. There's no way in hell I'd watch a censored version of SOTG or Weapon of Choice. It just wouldn't happen, because I enjoy the mature nature of young adults/adults being who they are and not some "oh god i hope i don't offend somebody". I understand where the OP is coming from but feel that the internet community is not ready for censored casting.
On May 26 2011 01:34 VillageBC wrote: I agree with the OP. I'm a parent 24/7 (2yr old, another on the way) and I'd like to continue to enjoy SC2 content regardless of that fact. Like any other sporting event, I expect to be able to watch hockey (Go Canucks Go) minus the f-bombs and to be honest off coloured jokes. I can turn on any sports channel or radio talk show and get generally explicative free content. I treat SC2 similar way, often streaming something as background noise as I'm doing something else and not actively watching it. I know the community players well enough that I generally know what is safe and isn't. But an extra tool would be helpful, pretty certain GOM, NASL, IPL and MLG are all going to be clean or clean enough for me to have on.
Is that smaller tournament cast by relative unknowns going to be clean? From experience, probably not so i'm not going to fire it up. Is State of the Game going to be clean, fuck no and it shouldn't be and I know what I'm getting and love it. However is Inside the Game? I've watched the episodes, but I'm not sure where it's trying to fall, it's got Geoff and it's the middle of the day and starts with 'what up biatches'. But I can't really recall a lot of profanity so I think it's safe-ish at least.
But as a general rule, just shut the fuck up with your profanity. I don't want to hear it whether I have a kid or not.
Actually, the major events you listed aren't always 100% clean. None of them are, and that's fine, it's still age appropriate.
If you're fine with one thing but not another, that's your prerogative, but I don't think casters should be expected to adhere to it. It doesn't compare to other sporting events in the same way, because the game itself has a rating with "violence, blood and gore". It's like allowing your kids to watch wrestling or having it playing in your house, or UFC or whatever, the violence and blood are okay to you, but in general it's considered to be age restrictive and in that target, the profanity is age appropriate.
So, Casters? keep doing what you're doing. Players in interviews? Keep doing what you're doing. No need to shut the fuck up with anything.
I don't understand this, the most important part of being a parent is teaching your kids stuff. And one of the things you should teach them is just because the people on the internet swear, it doesn't mean they should too. There is literally no reason to censor words from your children. Even if you have a 7 year old that hears day9 say "Go and fucking kill him." What does that really do to the kid? Nothing at all. It's okay watching all the gore filled deaths in video games or movies but god forbid they see a tit or hear a bad word.
well ideally sc2 casters mimic the professionalism of sports casters on tv. we can clearly see that those 'casters' are successful and do a good job of commentating while we watch the action.
Man when I was a kid I knew like almost every sexual reference and bs when I turned 12. Parents like to think that their kids are completely innocent but once you go to school its like hats off your gonna learn retarded things some things you wish you never learned. Its better to just embrace the curse words then censor em. Its not like sc2 commentators are talking about the dirtiest most disgusting senile crap they just hit a few swear notes here and there to express how they feel.
In large tournaments I haven't noticed or heard any bad language its just usually personal stuff will you ever get to hear it.
In most cases its just the players playing in the game would curse and it will be viewed beause its broadcasted live. It happens, players curse all the time in every sport whether you like it or not. People can put the language filter on sc2 because yes there is an option but in the end of the day 99% of the people would like to see for themselves that yes indeed idra told Huk to go fuck off.
On May 26 2011 02:02 JiYan wrote: well ideally sc2 casters mimic the professionalism of sports casters on tv. we can clearly see that those 'casters' are successful and do a good job of commentating while we watch the action.
The thing is, casting is based on a game that itself has a rating. There is an age restriction/recommendation/expectation just by the very nature of the game that isn't present in other sports.
On May 25 2011 07:40 Swad1000 wrote: Under 13 should not be watching SC2 anyway. The casters are not the problem you are if you let children see marines getting massacred by blades and acid. Sc is rated Teen.
Titles rated T (Teen) have content that may be suitable for ages 13 and older. Titles in this category may contain violence, suggestive themes, crude humor, minimal blood, simulated gambling, and/or infrequent use of strong language.
Mpaa rating that goes with 13+ PG-13 for Parental Guidance 13+ - Parents urged to be cautious. Some material may be inappropriate for pre-teenagers.
So yea when it comes to ops point I think they need to start slapping a pg13 tag or something onto events with casters just to keep them safe. But anyone who thinks censoring great personalitys like day9/tastosis is a good ideal your crazy. Lagtv is a good example of funny ass casters who are lamer when they try to censor casts.
This is totally what I feel as well. If you are 8 you shouldn't even be watching the game in the first place. Censoring casters because of that would actually agitate me very much!
On May 25 2011 23:35 Wolf wrote: I've noticed a majority of professional casters avoid stepping over the line when it comes to profanity. I follow that model myself. There are always better ways of saying things.
Agreed Wolf. I personally don't have any problem with the profanity but I don't think its necessary, especially during big events.
Interesting topic. So far I don't find SC community mature enough to let my kids watch games with me. It's a 14+ rating at least, and I do think this is hurting the growth of e-sport, on a 10 years scale.
I mean in a few years, I would not encourage my boys to play SC2 competitively as long as it does not acquire higher standards of quality to make it a real social activity. I'd like my boys to play a game that make them better, and SC2 community fails at that.
On May 26 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote: Actually, the major events you listed aren't always 100% clean. None of them are, and that's fine, it's still age appropriate.
If you're fine with one thing but not another, that's your prerogative, but I don't think casters should be expected to adhere to it. It doesn't compare to other sporting events in the same way, because the game itself has a rating with "violence, blood and gore". It's like allowing your kids to watch wrestling or having it playing in your house, or UFC or whatever, the violence and blood are okay to you, but in general it's considered to be age restrictive and in that target, the profanity is age appropriate.
So, Casters? keep doing what you're doing. Players in interviews? Keep doing what you're doing. No need to shut the fuck up with anything.
It compares fine with other sporting events, plenty are violent. Can't think of much commentary that is laced with profanity or innuendo. Not sure on the UFC/WWE angle as one is just barbaric and the other a joke. But I'd argue that violence and language don't necessarily line up. SC2 isn't particularly violent by my standards unless you spend the entire time zoomed in watching marines get acid bathed even then it's not exactly realistic. From a parent perspective, it's easy to shield her eyes from it if I want and need to but not so easy to shield the ears. For myself, I just don't enjoy profanity laced casts anyway so I wouldn't listen to them anyway which makes it easier.
Anyway, I think casters alienate a certain portion of your potential audience by over using profanity.in their content. Which, if eliminated would not detract from it at all unless the show is designed around it. State of the Game and Inside the Game are easiest (only?) examples to really look at, one is definitely designed around a relaxed drunk casting discussion free for all and the other is like a radio call in show where the former would lose something to be censored and the latter would only gain.
edit: Missed a word changing the sentence meaning, doh!
I don't want my shows ruined by politically correct bullshit.
One of the reasons I like watching Starcraft 2 is that its not like TV, the casters and players are not bound and gagged, they are free to speak as they wish.
I am fucking tired of parents who want the content creators to regulate the language because the parents want to give their kids only parts of an experience rather than the whole.
On May 26 2011 02:04 Raid wrote: Man when I was a kid I knew like almost every sexual reference and bs when I turned 12. Parents like to think that their kids are completely innocent but once you go to school its like hats off your gonna learn retarded things some things you wish you never learned. Its better to just embrace the curse words then censor em. Its not like sc2 commentators are talking about the dirtiest most disgusting senile crap they just hit a few swear notes here and there to express how they feel.
In large tournaments I haven't noticed or heard any bad language its just usually personal stuff will you ever get to hear it.
In most cases its just the players playing in the game would curse and it will be viewed beause its broadcasted live. It happens, players curse all the time in every sport whether you like it or not. People can put the language filter on sc2 because yes there is an option but in the end of the day 99% of the people would like to see for themselves that yes indeed idra told Huk to go fuck off.
I'm sorry, but profanity brings zero value to sc2 casts. Go find a Gus Johnson soundboard and see how many times you hear him swearing. You're turning off viewers in exchange for what? I've never watched a professional sporting broadcast and thought to myself "man, I wish vin scully would let loose sometimes and tell the ump to go fuck himself." What viewer is watching your cast and decides to keep watching because you swear? keepin it real is so 1996
On May 26 2011 02:26 darkscream wrote: I don't want my shows ruined by politically correct bullshit.
One of the reasons I like watching Starcraft 2 is that its not like TV, the casters and players are not bound and gagged, they are free to speak as they wish.
I am fucking tired of parents who want the content creators to regulate the language because the parents want to give their kids only parts of an experience rather than the whole.
So, your experience is better because the guy said "Holy shit that was awesome" instead of "Wow that was awesome"? This isn't about political correctness, I wonder if you even understand the term. Is occasional f-bomb going to stop me from watching SC2 - no. But quite frankly it IS going to make me feel like I'm back in high school, and I've no particular interest in reliving that train wreck.
Let me put it another way: If someone went an entire cast with no lewd references of cursing, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't notice if there was no big deal made about the fact they were going to cut the stuff out. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who WOULD notice in the opposite scenario.
Frankly, you sound like you are a rebellious teenager who thinks the word "fuck" makes it more "real" or "authentic." In reality, it just makes it sound amateurish.
On May 26 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote: Actually, the major events you listed aren't always 100% clean. None of them are, and that's fine, it's still age appropriate.
If you're fine with one thing but not another, that's your prerogative, but I don't think casters should be expected to adhere to it. It doesn't compare to other sporting events in the same way, because the game itself has a rating with "violence, blood and gore". It's like allowing your kids to watch wrestling or having it playing in your house, or UFC or whatever, the violence and blood are okay to you, but in general it's considered to be age restrictive and in that target, the profanity is age appropriate.
So, Casters? keep doing what you're doing. Players in interviews? Keep doing what you're doing. No need to shut the fuck up with anything.
It compares fine with other sporting events, plenty are violent. Can't think of much commentary that is laced with profanity or innuendo. Not sure on the UFC/WWE angle as one is just barbaric and the other a joke. But I'd argue that violence and language don't necessarily line up. SC2 isn't particularly violent by my standards unless you spend the entire time zoomed in watching marines get acid bathed even then it's not exactly realistic. From a parent perspective, it's easy to shield her eyes from it if I want and need to but not so easy to shield the ears. For myself, I just don't enjoy profanity laced casts anyway so I wouldn't listen to them anyway which makes it easier.
Anyway, I think casters alienate a certain portion of your potential audience by over using profanity.in their content. Which, if eliminated would not detract from it at all unless the show is designed around it. State of the Game and Inside the Game are easiest (only?) examples to really look at, one is definitely designed around a relaxed drunk casting discussion free for all and the other is like a radio call in show where the former would lose something to be censored and the latter would only gain.
edit: Missed a word changing the sentence meaning, doh!
I don't think it compares, because I can't think of any other sporting event that is violent in the same sense, unless some huge mishap happens and someone gets seriously hurt. In addition, Starcraft 2 has it's own rating so if you disagree and don't find it particularly violent that's your call, but it's there and it's rated accordingly.
Can you please give me an example of a profanity laced cast that detracts from the game? There are plenty of casters I have trouble enjoying but I honestly can't think of a single one that puts be me off because of their profanity. At most you get some minor expletives, F-bombs are so few and far between that I don't consider it an issue. Maybe I just haven't encountered the casts you have, but for the life of me I can't think of something I would consider age inappropriate for the game or offensive to me personally(or anyone I know).
Everything in the world alienates some people because of it's content, any violent movie could have the cussing removed to potentially invite kids with parents who don't give a crap about people being melted and sliced and half but don't like swear words, but there are age expectations based on ratings and content is made age appropriate around that. Pretty much all casting I've encountered has been age appropriate to the content of Starcraft 2, and if you look at the label on the box, it actually turns out that it matches what you can expect from any cast.
I seriously do not understand the american approach to profanity (im generalizing here based on the censorship in tv, i don't want to step on anyone's toes). You watch a game with your kids in which humans and aliens kill each other with a wide range of weapons. you listen to death screams and gunshots. you trust in your children to be able to differentiate these things from the real world. yet you are afraid of hearing some profane words of casters.
while profanity usually is rather useless, it seems to be a part of the net culture because all children get sheltered away from it at home and love to use it when their parents ain't around. this way it also moved into the gaming culture. you should definately watch casters that "drop the f-bomb" with your kids, that way they might at least learn that these words aint anything special and using em' doesn't make you cool. again, you let em watch people beating the shit out of each other. how much worse could some profane words be?
On May 26 2011 02:26 darkscream wrote: I don't want my shows ruined by politically correct bullshit.
One of the reasons I like watching Starcraft 2 is that its not like TV, the casters and players are not bound and gagged, they are free to speak as they wish.
I am fucking tired of parents who want the content creators to regulate the language because the parents want to give their kids only parts of an experience rather than the whole.
So, your experience is better because the guy said "Holy shit that was awesome" instead of "Wow that was awesome"? This isn't about political correctness, I wonder if you even understand the term. Is occasional f-bomb going to stop me from watching SC2 - no. But quite frankly it IS going to make me feel like I'm back in high school, and I've no particular interest in reliving that train wreck.
Let me put it another way: If someone went an entire cast with no lewd references of cursing, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't notice if there was no big deal made about the fact they were going to cut the stuff out. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who WOULD notice in the opposite scenario.
Frankly, you sound like you are a rebellious teenager who thinks the word "fuck" makes it more "real" or "authentic." In reality, it just makes it sound amateurish.
In reality, it doesn't fucking matter whether you say 'it was super awesome' or 'it was fucking awesome'. Both are words used to intensify what you are saying. The only difference is that one of them has been labeled 'a curse word'. You really should grow up if you are offended by curse words.
People are getting cut in half on the screen and you complain about an innocent word? Go away. Children don't magically turn gay, or shoot their classmates when they hear a curse word.
I see a few people putting out arguments "kids shouldn't be watching it anyways".
I'm not arguing against using profanity because of kids. As adults, we should know when and where profanity should be used. If you are using it humorously ("what's up, bitches!"), it's definitely different than using it insultingly ("fuck you, bitches"). However, from a professional standpoint, it's still not completely acceptable, regardless of intent. There is a reason why MMA commentary doesn't have such colorful language; because a good amount of people think it is inappropriate to use language deemed as insulting just for the sake of using it.
As a few other people said, there isn't a need to use them if something else works just as well.
NOW - if the people you are broadcasting to are of the teen to young adult group, they most likely don't care and appreciate the colorfulness. That's fine - you cater to that group. But when you advertise E-sports as something that's up and coming, and then you spend tons of money advertising and broadcasting, professionalism is something that is expected.
On May 26 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote: Actually, the major events you listed aren't always 100% clean. None of them are, and that's fine, it's still age appropriate.
If you're fine with one thing but not another, that's your prerogative, but I don't think casters should be expected to adhere to it. It doesn't compare to other sporting events in the same way, because the game itself has a rating with "violence, blood and gore". It's like allowing your kids to watch wrestling or having it playing in your house, or UFC or whatever, the violence and blood are okay to you, but in general it's considered to be age restrictive and in that target, the profanity is age appropriate.
So, Casters? keep doing what you're doing. Players in interviews? Keep doing what you're doing. No need to shut the fuck up with anything.
It compares fine with other sporting events, plenty are violent. Can't think of much commentary that is laced with profanity or innuendo. Not sure on the UFC/WWE angle as one is just barbaric and the other a joke. But I'd argue that violence and language don't necessarily line up. SC2 isn't particularly violent by my standards unless you spend the entire time zoomed in watching marines get acid bathed even then it's not exactly realistic. From a parent perspective, it's easy to shield her eyes from it if I want and need to but not so easy to shield the ears. For myself, I just don't enjoy profanity laced casts anyway so I wouldn't listen to them anyway which makes it easier.
Anyway, I think casters alienate a certain portion of your potential audience by over using profanity.in their content. Which, if eliminated would not detract from it at all unless the show is designed around it. State of the Game and Inside the Game are easiest (only?) examples to really look at, one is definitely designed around a relaxed drunk casting discussion free for all and the other is like a radio call in show where the former would lose something to be censored and the latter would only gain.
edit: Missed a word changing the sentence meaning, doh!
I don't think it compares, because I can't think of any other sporting event that is violent in the same sense, unless some huge mishap happens and someone gets seriously hurt. In addition, Starcraft 2 has it's own rating so if you disagree and don't find it particularly violent that's your call, but it's there and it's rated accordingly.
Can you please give me an example of a profanity laced cast that detracts from the game? There are plenty of casters I have trouble enjoying but I honestly can't think of a single one that puts be me off because of their profanity. At most you get some minor expletives, F-bombs are so few and far between that I don't consider it an issue. Maybe I just haven't encountered the casts you have, but for the life of me I can't think of something I would consider age inappropriate for the game or offensive to me personally(or anyone I know).
Everything in the world alienates some people because of it's content, any violent movie could have the cussing removed to potentially invite kids with parents who don't give a crap about people being melted and sliced and half but don't like swear words, but there are age expectations based on ratings and content is made age appropriate around that. Pretty much all casting I've encountered has been age appropriate to the content of Starcraft 2, and if you look at the label on the box, it actually turns out that it matches what you can expect from any cast.
I think the goal is to ensure that the big professional casts avoid using any profanity. For example, I don't think the educational Day9 dailies should have profanity. However, the stuff like Funday Monday or any of his humor segments should not be restricted in any way. That's my take on it.
On May 26 2011 02:26 darkscream wrote: I don't want my shows ruined by politically correct bullshit.
One of the reasons I like watching Starcraft 2 is that its not like TV, the casters and players are not bound and gagged, they are free to speak as they wish.
I am fucking tired of parents who want the content creators to regulate the language because the parents want to give their kids only parts of an experience rather than the whole.
So, your experience is better because the guy said "Holy shit that was awesome" instead of "Wow that was awesome"? This isn't about political correctness, I wonder if you even understand the term. Is occasional f-bomb going to stop me from watching SC2 - no. But quite frankly it IS going to make me feel like I'm back in high school, and I've no particular interest in reliving that train wreck.
Let me put it another way: If someone went an entire cast with no lewd references of cursing, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't notice if there was no big deal made about the fact they were going to cut the stuff out. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who WOULD notice in the opposite scenario.
Frankly, you sound like you are a rebellious teenager who thinks the word "fuck" makes it more "real" or "authentic." In reality, it just makes it sound amateurish.
In reality, it doesn't fucking matter whether you say 'it was super awesome' or 'it was fucking awesome'. Both are words used to intensify what you are saying. The only difference is that one of them has been labeled 'a curse word'. You really should grow up if you are offended by curse words.
People are getting cut in half on the screen and you complain about an innocent word? Go away. Children don't magically turn gay, or shoot their classmates when they hear a curse word.
Then what's the point of using those words? What's their existance? If not for insult, then why use them at all? Why are we using the word "fuck" if it means the same as "having sex"? "This game is having sex awesome!"
Did it really evolve like in the "Fuck" video posted previously? Do we accept is as such? Why should we accept it?
Can you please give me an example of a profanity laced cast that detracts from the game?
"Wow that army just got RAPED" is something that always makes me cringe a bit, heard that a few times. Just as an example. That definitely detracts from the game for me. I probably won't turn it off, but its not outside the realm of reason if I did. It isn't about people shouting shit and fuck non stop, its just that when they do come out, it just feels amateurish. My wife doesn't care, but she absolutely will poke fun at me for watching something that uses that kind of language for no reason. And thats really the point - are we interested in this ever being socially acceptable? If all we care about is our own personal viewing, then no, it doesn't matter the huge majority of the time. If we are interested in making the content as accessible and acceptable as possible, I think its worth sticking to the same standards as any other sports cast.
It isn't about age appropriateness in my opinion, its about production quality and professionalism. I think its very simple: Turn on any sporting event on TV, those are expertly commentated, entertaining, and well done all while remaining perfectly acceptable to any given person who might turn it on. I don't see why Starcraft should try to emulate anything else. I think a good example of this kind of professionalism comes from Diggity, he seems to take his craft seriously, while still being enthusiastic and entertaining.
On May 26 2011 02:29 scorch- wrote: I'm sorry, but profanity brings zero value to sc2 casts. Go find a Gus Johnson soundboard and see how many times you hear him swearing. You're turning off viewers in exchange for what? I've never watched a professional sporting broadcast and thought to myself "man, I wish vin scully would let loose sometimes and tell the ump to go fuck himself." What viewer is watching your cast and decides to keep watching because you swear? keepin it real is so 1996
Why do people keep assuming that Esports need to follow the rules set by other sports? The Esport culture is unique and different from, for example, basketball culture. You cannot apply the same rules and, if it ever becomes "mainstream" (whatever that means, really), it will be by staying true to its nature, not by parroting other activities out of what sometimes feels like an inferiority complex.
On top of that, seriously, is there that much profanity in GSL, IPL, NASL and TSL casts? While I do not mean to tell anybody how to raise their kids, I hope parents do realize that kids learn swear words and are often exposed to sexual jokes pretty much as soon as they hit school age. If the F word comes up in a cast, why don't you take the opportunity to actually explain its usage rather than attempting to censor it (which is useless)?
On May 26 2011 02:40 DocGore wrote: I seriously do not understand the american approach to profanity (im generalizing here based on the censorship in tv, i don't want to step on anyone's toes). You watch a game with your kids in which humans and aliens kill each other with a wide range of weapons. you listen to death screams and gunshots. you trust in your children to be able to differentiate these things from the real world. yet you are afraid of hearing some profane words of casters.
while profanity usually is rather useless, it seems to be a part of the net culture because all children get sheltered away from it at home and love to use it when their parents ain't around. this way it also moved into the gaming culture. you should definately watch casters that "drop the f-bomb" with your kids, that way they might at least learn that these words aint anything special and using em' doesn't make you cool. again, you let em watch people beating the shit out of each other. how much worse could some profane words be?
All this censorship is ridiculous, I completely agree with DocGore here. Why is it okay for them to view any sort of violence, but not listen to some language with negative connotations?
Curse words are words, people need to grow up a bit here.
Can you please give me an example of a profanity laced cast that detracts from the game?
"Wow that army just got RAPED" is something that always makes me cringe a bit, heard that a few times. Just as an example. That definitely detracts from the game for me. I probably won't turn it off, but its not outside the realm of reason if I did. It isn't about people shouting shit and fuck non stop, its just that when they do come out, it just feels amateurish. My wife doesn't care, but she absolutely will poke fun at me for watching something that uses that kind of language for no reason. And thats really the point - are we interested in this ever being socially acceptable? If all we care about is our own personal viewing, then no, it doesn't matter the huge majority of the time. If we are interested in making the content as accessible and acceptable as possible, I think its worth sticking to the same standards as any other sports cast.
It isn't about age appropriateness in my opinion, its about production quality and professionalism. I think its very simple: Turn on any sporting event on TV, those are expertly commentated, entertaining, and well done all while remaining perfectly acceptable to any given person who might turn it on. I don't see why Starcraft should try to emulate anything else. I think a good example of this kind of professionalism comes from Diggity, he seems to take his craft seriously, while still being enthusiastic and entertaining.
I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? )
On May 26 2011 02:43 JinDesu wrote: NOW - if the people you are broadcasting to are of the teen to young adult group, they most likely don't care and appreciate the colorfulness. That's fine - you cater to that group. But when you advertise E-sports as something that's up and coming, and then you spend tons of money advertising and broadcasting, professionalism is something that is expected.
Pretty much exactly the point. OP is the type of viewer that brings money to esports through advertising. Parents of teenagers spend a LOT of money, and their attention (and their kids') is worth a lot to advertisers. It doesn't fucking matter if it's *right* that OP doesn't watch sc2 casts with profanity because he watches with his kids. It happens.
If casters care about their business, they need to have a good reason to be turning these viewers off, or else they're shooting themselves in the foot.
I'm fine with the language used because I'm an adult, but I see where you're coming from. It's ok to crack jokes, but some stuff does make my raise an eyebrow and say "what?"
Casting should be treated as radio. If you couldn't say it on the radio you shouldn't be saying it during something like NASL. Day9 and SoTG are different, but to be as inclusive as possible they really should watch what they say. I'd rather see SC2 grow and gain mainstream popularity, so that's something they'd have to watch eventually.
On May 26 2011 02:43 JinDesu wrote: I see a few people putting out arguments "kids shouldn't be watching it anyways".
I'm not arguing against using profanity because of kids. As adults, we should know when and where profanity should be used. If you are using it humorously ("what's up, bitches!"), it's definitely different than using it insultingly ("fuck you, bitches"). However, from a professional standpoint, it's still not completely acceptable, regardless of intent. There is a reason why MMA commentary doesn't have such colorful language; because a good amount of people think it is inappropriate to use language deemed as insulting just for the sake of using it.
As a few other people said, there isn't a need to use them if something else works just as well.
NOW - if the people you are broadcasting to are of the teen to young adult group, they most likely don't care and appreciate the colorfulness. That's fine - you cater to that group. But when you advertise E-sports as something that's up and coming, and then you spend tons of money advertising and broadcasting, professionalism is something that is expected.
On May 26 2011 01:47 Mordiford wrote: Actually, the major events you listed aren't always 100% clean. None of them are, and that's fine, it's still age appropriate.
If you're fine with one thing but not another, that's your prerogative, but I don't think casters should be expected to adhere to it. It doesn't compare to other sporting events in the same way, because the game itself has a rating with "violence, blood and gore". It's like allowing your kids to watch wrestling or having it playing in your house, or UFC or whatever, the violence and blood are okay to you, but in general it's considered to be age restrictive and in that target, the profanity is age appropriate.
So, Casters? keep doing what you're doing. Players in interviews? Keep doing what you're doing. No need to shut the fuck up with anything.
It compares fine with other sporting events, plenty are violent. Can't think of much commentary that is laced with profanity or innuendo. Not sure on the UFC/WWE angle as one is just barbaric and the other a joke. But I'd argue that violence and language don't necessarily line up. SC2 isn't particularly violent by my standards unless you spend the entire time zoomed in watching marines get acid bathed even then it's not exactly realistic. From a parent perspective, it's easy to shield her eyes from it if I want and need to but not so easy to shield the ears. For myself, I just don't enjoy profanity laced casts anyway so I wouldn't listen to them anyway which makes it easier.
Anyway, I think casters alienate a certain portion of your potential audience by over using profanity.in their content. Which, if eliminated would not detract from it at all unless the show is designed around it. State of the Game and Inside the Game are easiest (only?) examples to really look at, one is definitely designed around a relaxed drunk casting discussion free for all and the other is like a radio call in show where the former would lose something to be censored and the latter would only gain.
edit: Missed a word changing the sentence meaning, doh!
I don't think it compares, because I can't think of any other sporting event that is violent in the same sense, unless some huge mishap happens and someone gets seriously hurt. In addition, Starcraft 2 has it's own rating so if you disagree and don't find it particularly violent that's your call, but it's there and it's rated accordingly.
Can you please give me an example of a profanity laced cast that detracts from the game? There are plenty of casters I have trouble enjoying but I honestly can't think of a single one that puts be me off because of their profanity. At most you get some minor expletives, F-bombs are so few and far between that I don't consider it an issue. Maybe I just haven't encountered the casts you have, but for the life of me I can't think of something I would consider age inappropriate for the game or offensive to me personally(or anyone I know).
Everything in the world alienates some people because of it's content, any violent movie could have the cussing removed to potentially invite kids with parents who don't give a crap about people being melted and sliced and half but don't like swear words, but there are age expectations based on ratings and content is made age appropriate around that. Pretty much all casting I've encountered has been age appropriate to the content of Starcraft 2, and if you look at the label on the box, it actually turns out that it matches what you can expect from any cast.
I think the goal is to ensure that the big professional casts avoid using any profanity. For example, I don't think the educational Day9 dailies should have profanity. However, the stuff like Funday Monday or any of his humor segments should not be restricted in any way. That's my take on it.
There's nothing unprofessional about profanity to me in the situations that it's used, I have no problem with some mild language during casts, even an F-bomb once in a while isn't making me think they're unprofessional in their medium.
Do I think Strelok was unprofessional for answering his NASL interview question with, "You know, it was like 'What the fuck'? I didn't expect him to go all-in in that game", No... I think he was bloody hilarious.
It's not about the kids then...? It's about professionalism? I don't think it's unprofessional, I don't it should be held to the same standards because it remains age appropriate to the content of the game and caster's are never(in my experience) excessive or offensive.
On May 26 2011 02:26 darkscream wrote: I don't want my shows ruined by politically correct bullshit.
One of the reasons I like watching Starcraft 2 is that its not like TV, the casters and players are not bound and gagged, they are free to speak as they wish.
I am fucking tired of parents who want the content creators to regulate the language because the parents want to give their kids only parts of an experience rather than the whole.
So, your experience is better because the guy said "Holy shit that was awesome" instead of "Wow that was awesome"? This isn't about political correctness, I wonder if you even understand the term. Is occasional f-bomb going to stop me from watching SC2 - no. But quite frankly it IS going to make me feel like I'm back in high school, and I've no particular interest in reliving that train wreck.
Let me put it another way: If someone went an entire cast with no lewd references of cursing, I'm willing to bet you wouldn't notice if there was no big deal made about the fact they were going to cut the stuff out. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who WOULD notice in the opposite scenario.
Frankly, you sound like you are a rebellious teenager who thinks the word "fuck" makes it more "real" or "authentic." In reality, it just makes it sound amateurish.
It doesn't really make me feel like I'm back in High School, and I liked High School... I don't really relate with you on your first point. When I hear "Holy shit that was awesome" naturally, it doesn't irritate me in any way, I would hate to force casters to moderate themselves past what they already do, and they currently do it quite well, they know not to take things overboard and that's fine. The current level of profanity is acceptable to me.
No, you can make that argument for tons of things... You could remove all the profanity and sexual content from almost any film or show, and potentially widen it's audience but it's age expectation would still be based on the rating, which would go unchanged. For example, if a movie is rated PG-13 for violence and gore after you've remove the profanity, the age recommendation and expectation is the same. That's in regards to parents and their kids.
As for it sounding amateurish, I don't feel that at all... It sounds natural to me, I don't even really mind the expletives but I do find it noticeable sometimes when a caster tries to gloss over what would have been an expletive. F-bombs are so rare that it's not an issue to me, and when they happen they still don't offend me, it's usually something humorous because of it's rarity.
On May 26 2011 02:57 Playguuu wrote: I'm fine with the language used because I'm an adult, but I see where you're coming from. It's ok to crack jokes, but some stuff does make my raise an eyebrow and say "what?"
Casting should be treated as radio. If you couldn't say it on the radio you shouldn't be saying it during something like NASL. Day9 and SoTG are different, but to be as inclusive as possible they really should watch what they say. I'd rather see SC2 grow and gain mainstream popularity, so that's something they'd have to watch eventually.
Why would you want to see SC2 grow mainstream if it meant to censor the shows that are such a huge part of sc2 community?
On May 26 2011 02:35 Mordiford wrote: I don't think it compares, because I can't think of any other sporting event that is violent in the same sense, unless some huge mishap happens and someone gets seriously hurt. In addition, Starcraft 2 has it's own rating so if you disagree and don't find it particularly violent that's your call, but it's there and it's rated accordingly.
Can you please give me an example of a profanity laced cast that detracts from the game? There are plenty of casters I have trouble enjoying but I honestly can't think of a single one that puts be me off because of their profanity. At most you get some minor expletives, F-bombs are so few and far between that I don't consider it an issue. Maybe I just haven't encountered the casts you have, but for the life of me I can't think of something I would consider age inappropriate for the game or offensive to me personally(or anyone I know).
Everything in the world alienates some people because of it's content, any violent movie could have the cussing removed to potentially invite kids with parents who don't give a crap about people being melted and sliced and half but don't like swear words, but there are age expectations based on ratings and content is made age appropriate around that. Pretty much all casting I've encountered has been age appropriate to the content of Starcraft 2, and if you look at the label on the box, it actually turns out that it matches what you can expect from any cast.
I don't see why the rating of the game and the cast are being equated. They are both separate entities, and I can listen to a cast without watching the game. I can follow a tournament and never actually watch a match. UFC is brutal, I don't watch it but is their profanity in their commentary?
Can't really give a direct example of profanity laced casts that detract from the game. I've found the major players to be mostly fine, and the occasional dropped f-bomb isn't a big deal. Only if it was being dropped in every game casts, then it would matter. But I've tried to some of the smaller tournament casts out there and I found the lessor known casters do tend to drop too many f-bombs for my tastes that I just stopped tuning them in. There are shows I wish I could listen to but can't when the kids around like Day9, but it just became too much and kid is at that stage where she picks up language and you can't just explain to her not to use that word. =) For obvious reasons, I just avoid peoples streams though I don't recall Sheth swearing, I could be wrong and Idra never talks so he's often safe.
On May 26 2011 02:35 Mordiford wrote: I don't think it compares, because I can't think of any other sporting event that is violent in the same sense, unless some huge mishap happens and someone gets seriously hurt. In addition, Starcraft 2 has it's own rating so if you disagree and don't find it particularly violent that's your call, but it's there and it's rated accordingly.
Can you please give me an example of a profanity laced cast that detracts from the game? There are plenty of casters I have trouble enjoying but I honestly can't think of a single one that puts be me off because of their profanity. At most you get some minor expletives, F-bombs are so few and far between that I don't consider it an issue. Maybe I just haven't encountered the casts you have, but for the life of me I can't think of something I would consider age inappropriate for the game or offensive to me personally(or anyone I know).
Everything in the world alienates some people because of it's content, any violent movie could have the cussing removed to potentially invite kids with parents who don't give a crap about people being melted and sliced and half but don't like swear words, but there are age expectations based on ratings and content is made age appropriate around that. Pretty much all casting I've encountered has been age appropriate to the content of Starcraft 2, and if you look at the label on the box, it actually turns out that it matches what you can expect from any cast.
I don't see why the rating of the game and the cast are being equated. They are both separate entities, and I can listen to a cast without watching the game. I can follow a tournament and never actually watch a match. UFC is brutal, I don't watch it but is their profanity in their commentary?
Can't really give a direct example of profanity laced casts that detract from the game. I've found the major players to be mostly fine, and the occasional dropped f-bomb isn't a big deal. Only if it was being dropped in every game casts, then it would matter. But I've tried to some of the smaller tournament casts out there and I found the lessor known casters do tend to drop too many f-bombs for my tastes that I just stopped tuning them in. There are shows I wish I could listen to but can't when the kids around like Day9, but it just became too much and kid is at that stage where she picks up language and you can't just explain to her not to use that word. =) For obvious reasons, I just avoid peoples streams though I don't recall Sheth swearing, I could be wrong and Idra never talks so he's often safe.
Well, in terms of smaller tournaments, that's sort of their own thing. I guess you guys could push for a label for people who want to push themselves as profanity free, but that's up to them.
As for major tournaments, leagues and casts I think there's nothing that should be changed in regards to appropriateness. I can't think of anything profanity-wise that has made me go, "Wow that was unprofessional/inappropriate", there are some jokes I find dumb but that's it's own thing. The only thing that sticks out in my mind is the When Cheese Fails segment during the NASL which was immediately acknowledged by inControl as inappropriate.
I can't recall a major caster saying, "That army just got raped" in any significant event, but I agree for a cast that would be inappropriate.
Basically, I don't see any fix necessary, I do think the rating of the game should be an easy identifier for the level of content you can expect in most casts, most events with any significant prize pool or organization has been age appropriate to the rating and labeling of the game.
Well, yeah.. Hence why I have no issues having NASL, IPL, GSL, and MLG casts. They are keeping themselves in check fine if they didn't I wouldn't be watching them. A voluntary rating system or self identifying rating system would be an additional nice courtesy to have and additional tool for me. When I evaluate your stream/show/podcast/whatever and if or what timeslot I fit you into.
Can I listen to this at work, when the kids around or do I need to wait until tonight?
I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? )
I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right?
I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? )
I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right?
The "young males" demographic is not exactly homogeneous.
I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? )
I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right?
The "young males" demographic is not exactly homogeneous.
Horrible example I know, I just hate that point that people who like a computer game can't like sports. Makes no sense. People can be fans of more than one thing. Which is why esports would be smart to be more friendly to a younger/more sensitive audience. It only makes sense to appeal to the masses, although I know many will disagree with that. It'll bring in more views which can get more sponsors, ad revenue, etc. Sure the cursing makes it interesting in the shows (day9, sotg, etc) but for the bigtime casts, just keep it to the action in the game and ease off the bad words. I would think thats the smart way to go no?
On May 26 2011 02:53 RoyalCheese wrote: But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? )
I'm not offended when I hear curse words, I think it sounds amateurish. If we're ok with that as a community, then fine. No one is going to lose their mind when they hear the word shit or fuck. Kids here this stuff at school every day. Its simply about professionalism and treating competitive SC2 as a serious profession and not as a hobby/pass time. When you hear "Holy shit, that army just got raped!" its just like saying "Hey, I've no training in this profession and I'm just saying what comes to my mind." This is what I mean when I say amateurish. It can be done better, I think someone like DJ Wheat manages to say get away with things like "What is up bitches?!" at the beginning of his casts because he actually comes across as professional and its a sort of calling card. But when its just random exclamation, it sounds like the person casting has no control over what is coming out of their mouths.
I'm not calling for censorship, if casters want to keep cursing, then go right ahead. Its just important that they realize they are doing it, what the consequences of it is, and whether or not they want to keep doing it. Its about our approach to the game. If this is "for us, by us" then whatever. But if its about something bigger, we need to consider our position in a large context. Simple as that.
On May 26 2011 04:03 Essentia wrote: I would be extremely surprised if your 12 year old kid hasn't already been exposed to all this profanity that you are worried about from SC2 casts.
I like the viewpoint because someone is exposed to something from one source it's okay for them to be exposed to that something from any other source. I can get behind that, it makes total sense.
How many times are people going to post "Hurrrr your kid already knows those words" without reading the thread?
I'm sure the OP was not seeking parenting advice from those who don't have kids of their own, which I am certain is what the majority of this thread contains.
I see both sides of the argument. Starcraft 2 is rated as a "Teen" game, we all understand that. But in the end, anything that brings Starcraft to a broader audience is fine by me. I feel as though unnecessary swearing provides nothing beneficial to the product or to the community.
I would also like to link to this thread by DJWheat (which may have already been posted, I apologize if so). Just because Starcraft 2 is not aimed at youngsters, it does not mean that it cannot be enjoyed through parental guidance and moderation.
I think if esports is going to grow its going to be the younger generation that helps it grow(more likely to get a 12 yr old to turn in then convince a 30 yr old whos mind is already set that pro gaming is awesome) so watching the language in casts wouldnt only benefit the scene imo. However i really dont see anyone being all that vulgar while casting tournies?
The only negative casting i see is sexual ineuendo and really a large majority of "kid" movies have jokes in there ment for the adults to get and thats suppose to fly over your kids head. And i see that as whats happening in casts.
On May 26 2011 04:20 Karshe wrote: How many times are people going to post "Hurrrr your kid already knows those words" without reading the thread?
I'm sure the OP was not seeking parenting advice from those who don't have kids of their own, which I am certain is what the majority of this thread contains.
I see both sides of the argument. Starcraft 2 is rated as a "Teen" game, we all understand that. But in the end, anything that brings Starcraft to a broader audience is fine by me. I feel as though unnecessary swearing provides nothing beneficial to the product or to the community.
I would also like to link to this thread by DJWheat (which may have already been posted, I apologize if so). Just because Starcraft 2 is not aimed at youngsters, it does not mean that it cannot be enjoyed through parental guidance and moderation.
I wouldn't really have casters change anything though, because I think it's fine as is. What would you recommend? They seem pretty good about not being excessive, the little profanity that is there isn't an issue to me and if it's an issue to you, then once again, the "Teen" rating is a fine response...
You can effectively make the argument to change anything to appeal to a wider audience, for example... Most PG-13 violent action films could have their profanity removed, but the film would still be PG-13 and it would come down to a parent being okay with violence but not okay with profanity. This seems like a cultural thing, more or less so I don't see how you'd want to go about it.
As for a label, I encourage individual casters to add a tag to their YouTube/Justin.tv/Ustream channel saying "Profanity Free" or whatever but as for any major event, it's always going to satisfy it's age expected rating regardless of the profanity. Should we request a censored version of the game for people who are fine with the language but don't like the violent imagery?
It's a cultural thing and I don't think it's fair to highlight profanity as an issue when it's mild as hell for all but the small tournaments run by first time or newer casters(who I don't really watch so I don't know how bad it is), but for most tournaments and leagues, yes there's language, yes there's some suggestive jokes but that's age appropriate for the rating of the game.There's a lot you could do to any game, movie, show, song to make it okay for younger audiences but when there's an age restrictive aspect that will be there and you're leaving in, I don't think it makes sense.
DJWheat is fine with letting MiniWheat play SC2, I'd be fine with letting my kid play it honestly, in a controlled environment. I don't have an issue with it, but if you do, you shouldn't let them play or watch casts because by the rating it's age inappropriate regardless, I wouldn't say a word to the casters about it because they're by and large doing a bang-up job in that respect, keeping it PG-13.
Hmm, I guess I will never understand what the big deal is with curse-words.
First of all, even though it's kept on a down-low around parents nobody curses more than children. Especially if it's forbidden. That makes it cooler. I was never ever shielded from cursing growing up, there's no harm in hearing swearing whatsoever. I heard a lot of cursing and I can't come up with a single example of it being harmful to any part of me. What's weird is that even though neither me or anyone in my family has ever had a problem with cursing I have never cursed in front of my parents ever. I'm 27. When I'm with my friends it's a natural part of my vocabulary, why shouldn't it be? If the word fits the situation it should be used in variance with its synonyms, why stomp my vocabulary for no reason?
Secondly children don't get sex jokes at all. It flies right above their heads. Eg I remember rewatching movies I watched when I was younger like Ace Ventura or Police Academy that had blatant blow job-scenes. When I was a kid had no idea, and I was a bright bright kid, I even skipped a grade. Still when I watched those scenes I was completely oblivious to what was really going on.
IMO it's ignorant to protect children from hearing swearing. You think it's wrong probably only because that's how you were brought up. The adverse effect from being subjected to cursewords is artificially created in your society. The "problem" should become extinct when people stop using circular reasoning and think for themself. I know that's an extremely arrogant thing to say, but that is my opinion and I feel you're trying to handle a problem that shouldn't be an issue in the first place.
I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? )
I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right?
The "young males" demographic is not exactly homogeneous.
Horrible example I know, I just hate that point that people who like a computer game can't like sports. Makes no sense. People can be fans of more than one thing. Which is why esports would be smart to be more friendly to a younger/more sensitive audience. It only makes sense to appeal to the masses, although I know many will disagree with that. It'll bring in more views which can get more sponsors, ad revenue, etc. Sure the cursing makes it interesting in the shows (day9, sotg, etc) but for the bigtime casts, just keep it to the action in the game and ease off the bad words. I would think thats the smart way to go no?
People can certainly enjoy both traditional sports and Esports, but that does not imply that they want or need them to be the same. I, for example, love watching basketball and SC2 and I can appreciate the cultural difference between the two. So yes, there is certainly a certain amount of overlapping and I am sure that Blizzard, being a competent company, has done its market research and figured it out. However none of us here has any actual data so we are speculating, which is pointless. Also, keep in mind that being "mainstream" is not always the best business decision. SC2 could do very well even by just filling its own not-so-little niche.
I think being afraid to let your kids hear jokes above their maturity is just a stupid fear, heres what happens when a kid heres a joke thats above their maturity level.... they don't get it. Oh well it will be funny in a few years, hearing the word fuck does not make your kid into a drug addict, stop worrying about stuff that can't hurt kids and start worrying about stuff that can like our failing education system, because its more concerned with kids not hearing the word fuck then it is with teaching them shit. GG NO RE
On May 26 2011 04:40 Mordiford wrote: *snip* As for a label, I encourage individual casters to add a tag to their YouTube/Justin.tv/Ustream channel saying "Profanity Free" or whatever but as for any major event, it's always going to satisfy it's age expected rating regardless of the profanity. Should we request a censored version of the game for people who are fine with the language but don't like the violent imagery? *snip*
Well, it does have an option to turn off gore in the game settings. Haven't tried it, I should just to see. I think China's version has been changed as well. =) Still going to maintain the game rating is unrelated to the cast language, Counter-Strike is rated mature. I wouldn't expect or appreciate casters (does it have them? I just assumed) profanity in that either. Maybe CS doesn't have anything of that nature. I just remember watching plenty of matches, but no casts. =)
From what i get from the OP, the TE does not want censorship or something like that, he basically wants a parents guide to casters. And in my opinion, there is abolutely nothing wrong with that.
You could even make a thread, and maybe somehow formulate the OP so that it encourages less discussion about the legitimacy of such a thing, and more like-minded people to post their experiences with different casters, so that you know what to expect when you turn on a specific stream.
I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? )
I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right?
The "young males" demographic is not exactly homogeneous.
I just hate that point that people who like a computer game can't like sports. Makes no sense.
Yes, it makes no sense. That's why i said something completely different. I said that SC2 viewers are not necessarily the sports viewers. Therefore it's stupid to just blindly copy what works there without thinking and experimenting.
On May 26 2011 04:03 Essentia wrote: I would be extremely surprised if your 12 year old kid hasn't already been exposed to all this profanity that you are worried about from SC2 casts.
I like the viewpoint because someone is exposed to something from one source it's okay for them to be exposed to that something from any other source. I can get behind that, it makes total sense.
Instead of shielding children from swear words, you should learn children that they shouldn't curse if you feel that strong about it. They will be exposed (and probably have been already) to them anyway. Better to teach them that swear words are bad (which they are not, but you think they are) instead of covering their ears every time.
I don't have children myself yet and I'm not trying to teach you how to parent (which would be stupid), but that's the way I'm going to do it myself.
I'd be more concerned with the violence in SC2 instead of some innocent words.
When you hear "Holy shit, that army just got raped!" its just like saying "Hey, I've no training in this profession and I'm just saying what comes to my mind."
Well, you shouldn't say rape anyway, because that actually is a bad word, unlike fuck and shit. I indeed have a problem with casters who say 'raped'. That is amateurish, not some usage of fuck and shit.
But when its just random exclamation, it sounds like the person casting has no control over what is coming out of their mouths.
Why? What's the difference between "That match was fucking awesome!" and "That match was fantastic!".
I'm not calling for censorship, if casters want to keep cursing, then go right ahead. Its just important that they realize they are doing it, what the consequences of it is, and whether or not they want to keep doing it. Its about our approach to the game. If this is "for us, by us" then whatever. But if its about something bigger, we need to consider our position in a large context. Simple as that.
I say we don't give in to stupid people that think words affect children more than all the graphic violence.
I'm offended by people being offended by curse words.
On May 26 2011 06:38 Thorakh wrote: Instead of shielding children from swear words, you should learn children that they shouldn't curse if you feel that strong about it. They will be exposed (and probably have been already) to them anyway. Better to teach them that swear words are bad (which they are not, but you think they are) instead of covering their ears every time.
I don't have children myself yet and I'm not trying to teach you how to parent (which would be stupid), but that's the way I'm going to do it myself.
I'd be more concerned with the violence in SC2 instead of some innocent words.
You'll change your tune when you are a parent. I thought the same thing, then I became one. It's not so simple and there's lots of juggling various aspects of their exposures to all sorts of things. There is a rather long period of time where they are exposed, taking in things and they do not have a way to grasp the concept of acceptable or not. They are just mimics and I'd still like to enjoy SC2 during the next 5 years (2nd kid on the way =)) while they move through that stage.
There's an obvious divide of people who have experience raising children and those who don't in here. I'm new at, but what I thought going in and what I think now are two different things. It's much more fun then I expected. =)
A word is just a word(and it's detached from it's main figurative meaning) , if you brought up your children in the right way the will understand that it's something that they should avoid saying for the next 6 or so years.
Then they will start saying it anyways.
I don't know, that's how we think in my region, words are just that, words, without figurative context ( two people having sex, in this case). So we don't really care if children listen to those. If they are educated in the right manner, they will avoid them for some time ( as I said, 6 years in you case), and that's that. If they are not, then the shame is on the parents, not on the media in question.
I agree with the OP even though I'm old enough to hear adult language and sexual humor I still think the casters should act more professional during big events. I have read in this thread a number of times others who have posted something similar. However, I still enjoy some adult humor once in a while depending on my mood. STOG is on later at night not to mention once a week therefore I don't think they should have to censor anything and I enjoy their humor. Other events such as NASL, MLG, IGN, DreamHack, GSL, perhaps should be dealt with more cation. Perhaps we can act more professional to make ESPORTS as big as possible so all ages can enjoy starcraft. Doesn't matter what Starcraft is "rated" imo if younger kids want to watch it and not be afraid of hearing harsh language they shouldn't have to worry. I do think there IS a place and time for that type of humor on starcraft just should be censored to younger ears.
First of all, I find it surprising(AND AWESOME) that kids so young are watching Starcraft.
Just make sure you tell the caster, and possibly find other people who have children as well. If they find out that they have a younger audience than they think, i'm sure they'd tone it down.
You show to your kids a videogame were people are cut into pieces, blown up, burn alive or consumed into acid and you don't want them to hear the word of the act that gave them their lives. I'm the kind of guy that would rather avoid words like suffer, destruction, pain, those words we use normally and have the real strong negative meaning. It's so silly the arbitrary censorship people use, and won't even stop for a second to think about it. Your kids won't transform into gangster if they hear a word on tv, quit following the "standard mature behaviour" which has medieval ideas and stop for a second to think how silly some of them are.
The internet is a "problem zone", simply because you never know who is watching. Thus the only real solution would be to have the casters control themselves and not use inappropriate language. Putting up stickers and rating will NOT prevent kids from watching Starcraft and might even make it more attractive the more "X-rated" it becomes. Thus the opposite effect would be achieved.
During the TSL3 casts djWheat always started his casts with "What is uuuuppp ..." and I finished it mentally with "bitches". I personally wouldnt use that word, but it has crept into my thought process due to his usual greeting on his shows.
Just a few days back I was picking up my nieces from school and some 10-year old boys were talking about Facebook, sex and that there were some pages with explicit positions on it. One of them proceeded to describe said positions, so the kids do have uncontrolled first hand access to it. This should make it totally clear that the internet is a "lawless problem zone" and that the Starcraft 2 community should do its utmost to control its content, because the casters dont only have a job, they also have a responsibility as every other public figure does.
So the only real solution is to control it from the casters end, because it doesnt work to say "its the parents job to educate their children correctly". That just puts ALL the burden and responsibility on the VICTIMS. No one would say something like "its that old grandmas fault she was mugged, because she didnt learn Karate" ....
It'd be really nice to see the ages of all the posters in this thread. I feel that the majority of the posts from adults (particularly ones with children) are in favor of some kind of understanding on the part of casters of the wide range of their audience. I feel that those who outright don't care what children are exposed to are still probably children themselves.
Casting should be done professionally like the Korean casters do. Think of it as if you are casting a football game or something, but a bit more informal. Assume the people watching at least knows what each units do and what they are good against and what they are bad against. You don't need to explain things like that every game. And just be professional and keep the inside jokes and such out of it, and keep the language PG.
On May 26 2011 14:35 dOofuS wrote: It'd be really nice to see the ages of all the posters in this thread. I feel that the majority of the posts from adults (particularly ones with children) are in favor of some kind of understanding on the part of casters of the wide range of their audience. I feel that those who outright don't care what children are exposed to are still probably children themselves.
Flame away.
That is exactly what I thought ... thanks for mentioning it. So have a bucket of water from me for any eventual flames ...
It'd be really nice to see the ages of all the posters in this thread. I feel that the majority of the posts from adults (particularly ones with children) are in favor of some kind of understanding on the part of casters of the wide range of their audience. I feel that those who outright don't care what children are exposed to are still probably children themselves.
Flame away.
It would be interesting to see the cultural/political/religious affiliations of most of the people in this thread. I'm sure there will be a more interesting trend. We've already identified that most of the Europeans think the idea of censorship or fear of swearing is mostly foolish (but I guess all Europeans are children). BTW I'm a 33 year old male with no children of my own but I do have 2 young nieces.
Also your post seems to be pretty condescending to younger people. Is that what you intended?
On May 26 2011 14:29 Rabiator wrote: The internet is a "problem zone", simply because you never know who is watching. Thus the only real solution would be to have the casters control themselves and not use inappropriate language. Putting up stickers and rating will NOT prevent kids from watching Starcraft and might even make it more attractive the more "X-rated" it becomes. Thus the opposite effect would be achieved.
During the TSL3 casts djWheat always started his casts with "What is uuuuppp ..." and I finished it mentally with "bitches". I personally wouldnt use that word, but it has crept into my thought process due to his usual greeting on his shows.
Just a few days back I was picking up my nieces from school and some 10-year old boys were talking about Facebook, sex and that there were some pages with explicit positions on it. One of them proceeded to describe said positions, so the kids do have uncontrolled first hand access to it. This should make it totally clear that the internet is a "lawless problem zone" and that the Starcraft 2 community should do its utmost to control its content, because the casters dont only have a job, they also have a responsibility as every other public figure does.
So the only real solution is to control it from the casters end, because it doesnt work to say "its the parents job to educate their children correctly". That just puts ALL the burden and responsibility on the VICTIMS. No one would say something like "its that old grandmas fault she was mugged, because she didnt learn Karate" ....
This is an absolutely atrocious analogy, I don't see how it applies to age appropriate language during casts. Also, you can't really compare age appropriate language in casts to grandma getting mugged, that's dumb as hell... You can quite easily put the burden and responsibility on them, the parents are not the victims in this case, you're putting the responsibility on them, not the children. If you really want to use the grandma example, it would be more like, "It's that cops fault he let that grandma get mugged right in front of him" and even then, it's terrible to compare an age-appropriate caster to a mugger. I'm not getting into the specifics of parental responsibility, because that's not something I want to touch on, but your reasoning and subsequent analogy are just terrible.
Once again, I keep asking for an example because I can't think of any cast I've watched that has been age inappropriate for the audience I expect to be watching it, nor do I think it's age inappropriate considering the base-line age expectation of the game.
It'd be really nice to see the ages of all the posters in this thread. I feel that the majority of the posts from adults (particularly ones with children) are in favor of some kind of understanding on the part of casters of the wide range of their audience. I feel that those who outright don't care what children are exposed to are still probably children themselves.
Flame away.
It would be interesting to see the cultural/political/religious affiliations of most of the people in this thread. I'm sure there will be a more interesting trend. We've already identified that most of the Europeans think the idea of censorship or fear of swearing is mostly foolish (but I guess all Europeans are children). BTW I'm a 33 year old male with no children of my own but I do have 2 young nieces.
Also your post seems to be pretty condescending to younger people. Is that what you intended?
I agree, his post ends with "Flame away", after making nothing other than an inflammatory post. It's just condescension.
Ignoring the fact that there may be kids watching casts, professional standards should be held to professional casted games. If our goal is to promote esports and SC2 into a mainstream entertainment field like TV in the west, or even to promote into general acceptability as a sport, we need to hold our professionals to standards we would expect from other types of sports casting. If you watch a professionally cast Basketball, Football, Football (the world sport kind ), etc. you don't expect the casters to be swearing on camera. In fact, as far as the US is concerned you'd be fined for it.
An interesting question that I'd pose is: Do you think standards should be different for casters in an Esport even instead of a normal sporting event? Also, does the fact that most casting is done online make a difference in what standards we hold?
On May 26 2011 15:48 rightstuff wrote: Ignoring the fact that there may be kids watching casts, professional standards should be held to professional casted games. If our goal is to promote esports and SC2 into a mainstream entertainment field like TV in the west, or even to promote into general acceptability as a sport, we need to hold our professionals to standards we would expect from other types of sports casting. If you watch a professionally cast Basketball, Football, Football (the world sport kind ), etc. you don't expect the casters to be swearing on camera. In fact, as far as the US is concerned you'd be fined for it.
An interesting question that I'd pose is: Do you think standards should be different for casters in an Esport even instead of a normal sporting event? Also, does the fact that most casting is done online make a difference in what standards we hold?
The question is comparability, Starcraft 2 as a game has it's own individual rating and contains content that you will not see in Basketball, Football etc... I don't think they're directly comparable, and then there's the aspects of casual, gamer culture which I actually enjoy. I don't think any of the major casted events are unprofessional, but they aren't clean either. They're age appropriate to the rating Starcraft 2 itself receives, with content that is similar to the warning label on the back of the box, interesting enough. I think that's perfectly fine.
Oh man, I dont get how so many people in this thread already (after 1 year of Starcraft) can have the audacity to demand anything form any caster. Censoring what they are alowed to say is even more outrageous. Well I guess thats what a Husky or TotalBiscuit brings to this community...
I also think that this is a issue that concerns exclusively americans since it is the only country that I can think of that takes verbal censorship so seriously. Take Europe for example. No one, and I really mean NO ONE would ever get the idea of censoring a televised broadcast. In german Television everything is allowed (i mean really...everything). Or take Sweden for example. Jinro stated in an interview that using strong laguage is very normal.
So I would suggest all you people who agree with the OP to chill out (no pun intended) and accept that starcraft is a world with a mostly online community, wich means everyone is invited to join but please please dont force anything on to this still infant franchise.
PS: I am NOT talking about political censorshit of course.
Ignoring the fact that there may be kids watching casts, professional standards should be held to professional casted games. If our goal is to promote esports and SC2 into a mainstream entertainment field like TV in the west, or even to promote into general acceptability as a sport, we need to hold our professionals to standards we would expect from other types of sports casting. If you watch a professionally cast Basketball, Football, Football (the world sport kind ), etc. you don't expect the casters to be swearing on camera. In fact, as far as the US is concerned you'd be fined for it.
An interesting question that I'd pose is: Do you think standards should be different for casters in an Esport even instead of a normal sporting event? Also, does the fact that most casting is done online make a difference in what standards we hold?
An interesting question is why are people fined in America for this? Also why are THESE the standards of American sports casting?
I think the reason you don't hear swears or looser language on American TV is BECAUSE there are fines for it. Also why are there no swears on major sports casts is because there are major contracts with major networks that are subject to these rules. I don't think that the reason is because the majority of people actually think it is more "professional" or less "offensive" for this type of language to be prohibited. I think Europe is a great example of how a society does not go to shit if these rules don't exist.
On May 26 2011 14:29 Rabiator wrote: The internet is a "problem zone", simply because you never know who is watching. Thus the only real solution would be to have the casters control themselves and not use inappropriate language. Putting up stickers and rating will NOT prevent kids from watching Starcraft and might even make it more attractive the more "X-rated" it becomes. Thus the opposite effect would be achieved.
During the TSL3 casts djWheat always started his casts with "What is uuuuppp ..." and I finished it mentally with "bitches". I personally wouldnt use that word, but it has crept into my thought process due to his usual greeting on his shows.
Just a few days back I was picking up my nieces from school and some 10-year old boys were talking about Facebook, sex and that there were some pages with explicit positions on it. One of them proceeded to describe said positions, so the kids do have uncontrolled first hand access to it. This should make it totally clear that the internet is a "lawless problem zone" and that the Starcraft 2 community should do its utmost to control its content, because the casters dont only have a job, they also have a responsibility as every other public figure does.
So the only real solution is to control it from the casters end, because it doesnt work to say "its the parents job to educate their children correctly". That just puts ALL the burden and responsibility on the VICTIMS. No one would say something like "its that old grandmas fault she was mugged, because she didnt learn Karate" ....
This is an absolutely atrocious analogy, I don't see how it applies to age appropriate language during casts. Also, you can't really compare age appropriate language in casts to grandma getting mugged, that's dumb as hell...
Obviously the analogy is exaggerated, but language is important ... always. If your kid picks up the regular use of swear words and such from watching Starcraft broadcasts it might have a problem later by not getting a high paying job by talking too dirty or whatever.
If you didnt understand the analogy between VICTIM and RESPONSIBILITY its your problem(*1), but the fact remains that public figures - like casters - influence the culture and behaviour of everyone who watches them. Thus their responsibility can not be denied.
(*1) hint: One is aggressor and the other the victim who didnt want its live changed, but nevertheless was forced into it. The prevention of these unwanted changes should not be burdened upon the victims.
On May 26 2011 14:29 Rabiator wrote: The internet is a "problem zone", simply because you never know who is watching. Thus the only real solution would be to have the casters control themselves and not use inappropriate language. Putting up stickers and rating will NOT prevent kids from watching Starcraft and might even make it more attractive the more "X-rated" it becomes. Thus the opposite effect would be achieved.
During the TSL3 casts djWheat always started his casts with "What is uuuuppp ..." and I finished it mentally with "bitches". I personally wouldnt use that word, but it has crept into my thought process due to his usual greeting on his shows.
Just a few days back I was picking up my nieces from school and some 10-year old boys were talking about Facebook, sex and that there were some pages with explicit positions on it. One of them proceeded to describe said positions, so the kids do have uncontrolled first hand access to it. This should make it totally clear that the internet is a "lawless problem zone" and that the Starcraft 2 community should do its utmost to control its content, because the casters dont only have a job, they also have a responsibility as every other public figure does.
So the only real solution is to control it from the casters end, because it doesnt work to say "its the parents job to educate their children correctly". That just puts ALL the burden and responsibility on the VICTIMS. No one would say something like "its that old grandmas fault she was mugged, because she didnt learn Karate" ....
This is an absolutely atrocious analogy, I don't see how it applies to age appropriate language during casts. Also, you can't really compare age appropriate language in casts to grandma getting mugged, that's dumb as hell...
Obviously the analogy is exaggerated, but language is important ... always. If your kid picks up the regular use of swear words and such from watching Starcraft broadcasts it might have a problem later by not getting a high paying job by talking too dirty or whatever.
If you didnt understand the analogy between VICTIM and RESPONSIBILITY its your problem(*1), but the fact remains that public figures - like casters - influence the culture and behaviour of everyone who watches them. Thus their responsibility can not be denied.
(*1) hint: One is aggressor and the other the victim who didnt want its live changed, but nevertheless was forced into it. The prevention of these unwanted changes should not be burdened upon the victims.
What? That doesn't make sense... You use terms like aggressor and it's so out of place.
I understand you're analogy, it's just illogical. You're calling the casters the aggressor and the children the victim while excluding the key party, the parents, you can't use such an analogy for something like this otherwise every piece of music, film, television show etc. is an aggressor when exposed to a certain audience. The parents are the key in this case, your analogy is flawed because it removes them from the equation and considers children to be victims and casters to be aggressors while excluding the key role of parents. No one is forcing them to watch casts, this analogy is broken.
I agree with the OP, some caster really needs to drop the F bomb or sexual jokes off. I think many minors watches SC2 cast out there, since they are the true future of SC and esport. Remember that Flash was only around 12-13 when he got really good at SC:BW and start owning people after that.
But on the show like SOTG, I think its ok to have some heavy stuff, just don't let children watch that since they better off practicing to be the next Flash anyway :D.
Mass respect to OP, I can sense two SC2 stars right there.
I agree... So many of you want to keep them locked in a cage unable to experience reality and learn how to cope with REAL LIFE. That way they grow up to be adults frightened of everything... even WORDS! I bet then they would vote for governments that try to control every aspect of their lives because they were unable to take responsibility for themselves out of the incredible fear they have when facing the world.
My parents taught me not to swear, I don't know where you get the idea that because I've been taught not to swear, I fear the words. I simply don't appreciate them, as I don't see them adding anything to conversation, let alone professional commentating.
On May 25 2011 01:48 Fatalize wrote: Only Americans are butthurted by F-bombs and things like that ...
BTW, Starcraft is supposed to be 12+yo (at least in France), so i don't see why casters should force them to speak in a certain way, when every 12+yo person is used to harsh words and such ...
I'm American and I wish there was absolutely no censorship except maybe a super gory scene.
Anyways, maybe a censored and uncensored version/stream because I think holding back/censoring isn't that good and makes it not as entertaining especially when there is bleeps or pauses.
I almost died out of disbelief and shock. You are right, every developped country on the planet except americans hate their children...spot on.
When kids learn so many bad words they might not get a highpaying yob
Thats right...only americans that dont know a synonym for feces can have high paying jobs. Totally correct.
this shit needs to stop. If you are a parent, then dont back away from your responsiblility and teach your kids how these words work. Dont just shit all over anyone who uses them.
On May 25 2011 01:35 Longshank wrote: So you ask for PG rated casting on a T rated game?
I guess it's a cultural thing but get worked up over some f-words while watching marines splatter all over the place seems odd to me.
It is kind of ironic, then again, I can't see many people getting worked up about this. Whether you like it or not, kids will use f-bombs by the time they're 11-12.
On May 26 2011 16:36 Rabiator wrote:Obviously the analogy is exaggerated, but language is important ... always. If your kid picks up the regular use of swear words and such from watching Starcraft broadcasts it might have a problem later by not getting a high paying job by talking too dirty or whatever.
PLEASE tell me you are kidding here! PLEASE TELL ME THAT YOU ARE KIDDING, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! So now I know why Americans have such an aversion against swear words, they think their children can't get good jobs when they hear swear words. HILARIOUS!
(*1) hint: One is aggressor and the other the victim who didnt want its live changed, but nevertheless was forced into it. The prevention of these unwanted changes should not be burdened upon the victims.
Using swear words is not a bad thing, and therefore there is no aggressor and no victim, thus your analogy is flawed.
My parents taught me not to swear, I don't know where you get the idea that because I've been taught not to swear, I fear the words. I simply don't appreciate them, as I don't see them adding anything to conversation, let alone professional commentating.
My parents taught me not to swear. I don't have a problem with swearing. They add just as much to the conversation as any other intensifier words.
I agree... So many of you want to keep them locked in a cage unable to experience reality and learn how to cope with REAL LIFE. That way they grow up to be adults frightened of everything... even WORDS! I bet then they would vote for governments that try to control every aspect of their lives because they were unable to take responsibility for themselves out of the incredible fear they have when facing the world.
Really, please think before posting such drivel.
I assume then from this that you won't suddenly turn around and say that the game is too violent for kids/ they shouldn't be watching a T game because that would be locking them in cages, etc, etc.
On May 25 2011 01:35 Longshank wrote: So you ask for PG rated casting on a T rated game?
I guess it's a cultural thing but get worked up over some f-words while watching marines splatter all over the place seems odd to me.
It is kind of ironic, then again, I can't see many people getting worked up about this. Whether you like it or not, kids will use f-bombs by the time they're 11-12.
Maybe. But this is one giant assumption and thus a bad premise for an argument. Can't say I've ever dropped the f-bomb. Easier that way actually, as a lot of my peers have been trying to curb their tongues as we've been stepping into the teaching profession. And as such, I don't buy the whole 'words are just words' and dropping f-bombs can be professional because I don't perceive swearing to be un-professional. Not in any professional job I've come across. Certainly not in mine.
But maybe we don't want Starcraft to be professional. That's fine, but we need to know that's what were doing. We also need to know we might be cutting off certain groups of people. Because at least in North America swearing is considered unprofessional, the MLG, NASL, and TSL are all broadcasted from North America. In addition, North America has this stereotypical view of gamers- particularly the unsavoury fps, angry teen gamer (or lazy college drop-out), a lot of foul talk simply confirms stereotypes. You can tell them to l2p, to grow up, to join the 21st Century, to stop being so American, to get more outraged about violence than about curses and sex, to not care about the meaning of words, but you're arguing against outsider's perceptions. And you won't change their perception with any sort of arguments, when the stereotype is being fed.
But if we're good with that, then carry on as we were.
On May 25 2011 01:04 warsinger wrote: I just composed this as an email to State of the Game. Hope they address it, but I'd like to hear what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue.
I am a father of 2 boys (12 and 8) and we love watching Starcraft casts and tournaments. We watch most of NASL, TSL, IPL and occasionally GSL as well as lots of independent casts and streams. My oldest son and I have attended both MLG Dallas 2010 & 2011.
My question is about maturity level of the casting. Using MPAA ratings for comparison some casters I can count on to use PG language and jokes and some go all the way up to R level (or beyond). I try to learn the various styles and "ratings" for each caster and tournament and filter appropriately. If I know a caster is likely to drop F-bombs I will listen solo or maybe watch it on mute with the kids. Then there are casts that are mostly clean but occasionally use some harsher language or sexually oriented jokes (looking at you Gretorp). Another situation is during post game interviews with the players. 5 seconds into the TSL3 championship post game interview, the F-bomb emerges after a pretty clean cast. I reached for the mute button very quickly. Glad my wife didn't hear it.
I'm not trying to complain or say there should be any censorship, but I would like to hear your discussion on some sort of mechanism for determining what the age appropriateness of specific tournament casts will be. Would it be possible to have some sort of rating system so that when tuning in to watch a tournament I can know that the casters will or will not be using certain types of language?
Another idea is a PG edited version where someone has taken the time to bleep out parts of the cast (like the TV version of an R movie). I'd love to have this for something like the Day9 Daily but I know such things take time and money. Can you imagine an edited version of SOTG?
As esports continues to grow I think this may be a barrier to entry for some like myself who are trying to protect the minds and ears of our little children at least for a few more years. I realize my standards are quite different from many but there are established standards for the major TV networks. Would a model like this help or hurt esports development?
Love to hear your thoughts.
Warsinger Bronze Division Braxis Zeta
unfortunately kids of 13 or less are not the target audience of SC2. I mean besides the language have you actually seen how some of the units die?
One of the marauder's death animations is the marauder getting split in half and falling to the ground and spraying blood everywhere, Banelings blowing up and melting marines while they scream,collosus and hellions setting units on fire and they wither and burn when they die.
Tastosis has already said they can curse but they keep it classy which is their choice. But I don't think it's reasonable to force PG language on casters so that little children, who shouldn't even be watching the game, won't hear any bad language. Nevermind all the gruesome death animations. Honestly I don't know how this game got a T rating with the kind of death animations they have. I think you can turn it off but the casters for the most part, don't. or at least I think they don't.
On that note, Infested Terrans shoot themselves when they 'expire.' ;D
I think asking for something like having videos bleeped out is practically insane, as just making the videos in the first place takes a tremendous amount of time and effort. Something like a warning label for seems reasonable, though. It should take no more than 5 minutes to stick something like that in, and then you immediately know what the worst you can expect will be.
Also, lol @ everyone getting mad at poor Gretorp. XD
On May 25 2011 01:48 Fatalize wrote: Only Americans are butthurted by F-bombs and things like that ...
BTW, Starcraft is supposed to be 12+yo (at least in France), so i don't see why casters should force them to speak in a certain way, when every 12+yo person is used to harsh words and such ...
But it's not true, not every 12+ yo person is used to "harsh" words. And even so, it's more what their parents will allow them to hear. I'm 16 and my parents still do not like me watching anything with the smallest vulgarity in it (of course I still do)
It seems highly likely that tourney casting will move towards language that parallels the game's rating, especially as more high profile sponsors move in.
Does anyone know what the case is for Korean language content? Presumably it has far greater levels guidance on content seeing as the scene is on a national scale. what about GOM.tv, does what's their policy?
I doubt any of these consideration will apply to SOTG - it is a very differnent kettle of cucumbers compared to a tournay cast. Half the fun is listening to tow pros sware at each other. Though seriously, are 8-12 years listening to this?
Well done on getting in their first Chill. Now GET OUT! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
I think having a rating for casts in general isn't a bad thing but the whole issue of censoring/bleeping seems to be a cultural thing. People in the USA or UK are used to bleeping/language filters. Other countries are way more lenient on these things or don't enforce language filters as strongly.
Personally, I am always appalled by the bleeping, so I don't want that to happen to casts.
If you don't like people saying fuck perhaps you could go do something worthwhile with your children. I don't know about everyone else but I'd be pissed if the highlight of my childhood was being forced to watch Gretorp on mute with my father.
This has probably been mentioned 10.000 times in this thread, but a game in which characters shoot eachother and explore violently, should have a more tremendous effect on your childs mind than "harsh language", a sentence like "He was really fucking good" is simply putting more pressure on the word "Good", "Oh my god he's getting raped out there" simply means something bad is happening to the player.
Sexual references being outlawed still makes me ponder, sex is a a nice thing, and yet it's incredibly sensored, while violence, hurting other people, is standard.
I may be a bit biased considering my country shows boobs and curses on national TV as standard, but all things must be taken in moderation.
PG - Parental Guidance Suggested - Some material may not be suitable for children under 10. These films may contain milder swear words, brief smoking, crude/suggestive humor, natural non-sexual nudity, short and infrequent horror moments and/or mild violence. Usually no drug use is acceptable in this category. Topless men may be present but topless woman are not usually acceptable unless in an educational or scientific context. A few racial insults may also be heard. Before the creation of PG-13, many "PG" films (e.g. Airplane!, Terms of Endearment, Nine to Five and Footloose) included elements such as swearing and drug use. Content such as this helped lead to the creation of the "PG-13" rating. Examples include Who Framed Roger Rabbit and The Incredibles.
PG-13 - Parents Strongly Cautioned - Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. These films may contain sex references, up to four uses of explicit language, drug innuendo, strong crude/suggestive humor, mature/political themes, moderately long horror moments and/or moderate action violence.
You can say fuck up to 4 times in a movie and still have it PG13. Starcraft is rated the equivalent of PG-13. As long as Incontrol and Gretorp are not shown having some kind of graphic sex scene(or as long as they don't fucking say fuck in every fucking word of the fucking sentence), you have no room to complain.
PG - Parental Guidance Suggested - Some material may not be suitable for children under 10. These films may contain milder swear words, brief smoking, crude/suggestive humor, natural non-sexual nudity, short and infrequent horror moments and/or mild violence. Usually no drug use is acceptable in this category. Topless men may be present but topless woman are not usually acceptable unless in an educational or scientific context. A few racial insults may also be heard. Before the creation of PG-13, many "PG" films (e.g. Airplane!, Terms of Endearment, Nine to Five and Footloose) included elements such as swearing and drug use. Content such as this helped lead to the creation of the "PG-13" rating. Examples include Who Framed Roger Rabbit and The Incredibles.
PG-13 - Parents Strongly Cautioned - Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. These films may contain sex references, up to four uses of explicit language, drug innuendo, strong crude/suggestive humor, mature/political themes, moderately long horror moments and/or moderate action violence.
You can say fuck up to 4 times in a movie and still have it PG13. Starcraft is rated the equivalent of PG-13. As long as Incontrol and Gretorp are not shown having some kind of graphic sex scene(or as long as they don't fucking say fuck in every fucking word of the fucking sentence), you have no room to complain.
That is a win right there. But yeah, I'm glad you brought up the pg-13 thing.
I wouldn't want my son to listen to Incontrol and Gretorp casting but that's mostly because I don't want him picking up their habit of needlessly mangling the english language
what your kids are 8 and 12 and don't know the word "fuck"? i hope i understood this correctly... i mean we are 4 brothers and our youngest brother is 12. he knows exactly "where the babys come from"... i don't know maybe it's different in germany... but i remember that we watched an education movie about having sex in primaryschool...
and about swearing: my brother also knows like every single bad word in the entire german and english language :D that doesn't mean he uses any of them. i don't want to tell you how to raise your children, but i don't think that it's the right way if you just dont let you kids hear the words.
i think it's absolutely no problem at all... my brother is the best student in his class...
On May 26 2011 22:19 supersoft wrote: what your kids are 8 and 12 and don't know the word "fuck"? i hope i understood this correctly... i mean we are 4 brothers and our youngest brother is 12. he knows exactly "where the babys come from"... i don't know maybe it's different in germany... but i remember that we watched an education movie about having sex in primaryschool...
i think it's absolutely no problem at all... my brother is the best student in his class...
I can see it being a problem if the OP's children look up to players/commentators like Incontrol, Gretrop, IdrA, etc. If they view these guys as role models they would probably curse a lot more. That's what kids do. They see something they like and they start acting upon it.
As a parent, I can see how this would be an issue for other parents. I've noticed several casters trying to hold back already. At certain events like MLG, the casters are even asked not to curse at all. The big organizations are heading in the right direction in terms of class and professionalism. If you are watching someone's own stream. That is a different can of worms. They can say whatever the heck they want in their own stream.
On May 26 2011 22:19 supersoft wrote: what your kids are 8 and 12 and don't know the word "fuck"? i hope i understood this correctly... i mean we are 4 brothers and our youngest brother is 12. he knows exactly "where the babys come from"... i don't know maybe it's different in germany... but i remember that we watched an education movie about having sex in primaryschool...
and about swearing: my brother also knows like every single bad word in the entire german and english language :D that doesn't mean he uses any of them. i don't want to tell you how to raise your children, but i don't think that it's the right way if you just dont let you kids hear the words.
i think it's absolutely no problem at all... my brother is the best student in his class...
It isn't about hearing the word fuck, its about it seeming amateurish. It makes casters seem like a couple of kids in their parents basement watching video games when its all "holy shit" and "what the hell" and so forth. Its like wearing a big sign that says "eSports isn't ready for prime time yet." Maybe it isn't, and thats fine. Maybe we don't care if it ever is, and thats fine. But frankly, if this is ever something I am going to try and get people in to, or be really excited about talking about in front of my friends, the only way is going to be socially acceptable and legitimate is it has an air of professionalism about it. As it stands I'd be embarrassed to show most of my friends and colleagues a lot of Starcraft 2 casts. I'm sure that lots of people will say "oh, it shouldn't be that way" or "its not our job to conform to arbitrary cultural/societal norms" etc. Fine fine fine, but just realize what you are saying.
Think of something like the X-Games. That never would've caught on if it was a bunch of stoned snowboarders cursing and making pot jokes while commentating. But, it got legitimatized precisely because it was treated seriously by ESPN, had a high production quality, and so forth. I think Starcraft and professional gaming needs to follow a similar path to successful. I've never watched the X-Games and thought, gee if only these people would really let loose with the swearing my experience would be better.
Finally, on a slightly different topic I feel like the two sides of this argument are operating from different assumptions about the "default" state of language. To me, swearing is not some kind immoral thing, but if you are saying them, there should be a point. That is to say, the "default" way of talking doesn't include them, but they can be added for emphasis or something like that. I think the pro cursing or anti censorship crowd (or however they identify) would argue that cursing is part of the casters normal language and shouldn't be removed for some arbitrary standards. So to me cursing is adding something that wasn't there before and not including them in your casts isn't really an imposition, and to them not cursing is taking away something that is there normally so it is censorship, I suspect this is the source of a lot of the conflict.
On May 27 2011 00:03 fant0m wrote: If your kids' lives will be ruined because they heard the word fuck, then you need to do something differently....
It's just a word, explain that to them. No need to shelter them from the real world. Ever.
Thanks, armchair parent.
This thread was not-at-all about censoring every caster, but rather giving a choice and creating standards to be able to choose what to watch. Looking for a little more sophistication and content-friendliness isn't sheltering your kids.
It's just a word and a very flexible and useful one, too. I never associate it with the act of having sex when used in contexts like "that was a fucking great match" or "I hate this fucking strategy" and neither should you. And even if you would, what's so bad about sex anyway? You watch humans get killed in the most gruesome ways in this game yet when someone says "fuck" it's not okay?
The only reason why "fuck" is such a powerful and feared word in American society is cause you give it so much attention. Treat it like a normal word, it doesn't hurt.
I would personally hate it if casters became more "professional" about what they say just because some people demand it. It will take away from their personality and it's just sad that they can't say what they want cause you have to cover your ears when someone says "dirty words" lol
On May 27 2011 00:14 Ragoo wrote: I love reading about the "f-word" or "f-bomb" lol
It's just a word and a very flexible and useful one, too. I never associate it with the act of having sex when used in contexts like "that was a fucking great match" or "I hate this fucking strategy" and neither should you. And even if you would, what's so bad about sex anyway? You watch humans get killed in the most gruesome ways in this game yet when someone says "fuck" it's not okay?
The only reason why "fuck" is such a powerful and feared word in American society is cause you give it so much attention. Treat it like a normal word, it doesn't hurt.
I would personally hate it if casters became more "professional" about what they say just because some people demand it. It will take away from their personality and it's just sad that they can't say what they want cause you have to cover your ears when someone says "dirty words" lol
I never realized that a lot of people view U.S.A as the censorship capital of the world. Like I said early I'm against censorship, but i can understand why people think that. I guess I never thought about it.
I think definetly the word 'retard' needs to go it's just a really bad word to use to describe in game decisions and people. I don't mind swearing and stuff and some of the jokes are funny but I do think casters need to start going to a professional level instead of the 'talking to your fellow nerds' mentality.
I feel bad for Gretorp getting called out on the "sexual jokes" lol. From what I understand he says a lot of that stuff not even really realizing what he's saying until iNcontrol calls him out on it. It's funny either way but I don't think Gretorp is being deliberately dirty most of the time.
For people calling out parents about not wanting their kids to say the "f-word" I think perhaps you should rethink posting about parenting if you're not a parent yourself. I have a 3 year old daughter myself and I would be appalled if she used such language. You can't justify bad language by saying "it's just a word", some words are offensive. It's that simple. Do you think it's acceptable for me to just run around saying nigger to whoever I want, or to use any other kind of language that is generally seen as racially demeaning? Just because a word has a meaning doesn't justify its use.
Anyone who would think I'm a language censor or something can shut that down right now. I don't have a problem with certain words in certain contexts. That kind of language is absolutely unacceptable for any child by societal standards and that's what the parents in the threads are speaking to.
On May 27 2011 01:02 Achaia wrote: That kind of language is absolutely unacceptable for any child by societal standards and that's what the parents in the threads are speaking to.
What makes you think that children adopt this language if they hear it?
On May 27 2011 01:02 Achaia wrote: That kind of language is absolutely unacceptable for any child by societal standards and that's what the parents in the threads are speaking to.
What makes you think that children adopt this language if they hear it?
experience of being a parent. children are like little parrots, repeating anything and everything they hear. Kinda like people who watch CNN or Fox News
On May 27 2011 01:02 Achaia wrote: That kind of language is absolutely unacceptable for any child by societal standards and that's what the parents in the threads are speaking to.
What makes you think that children adopt this language if they hear it?
experience of being a parent. children are like little parrots, repeating anything and everything they hear. Kinda like people who watch CNN or Fox News
I knew this would come up. And do your kids kill other people because they saw it?
On May 27 2011 01:02 Achaia wrote: That kind of language is absolutely unacceptable for any child by societal standards and that's what the parents in the threads are speaking to.
What makes you think that children adopt this language if they hear it?
experience of being a parent. children are like little parrots, repeating anything and everything they hear. Kinda like people who watch CNN or Fox News
I knew this would come up. And do your kids kill other people because they saw it?
On May 27 2011 01:02 Achaia wrote: That kind of language is absolutely unacceptable for any child by societal standards and that's what the parents in the threads are speaking to.
What makes you think that children adopt this language if they hear it?
experience of being a parent. children are like little parrots, repeating anything and everything they hear. Kinda like people who watch CNN or Fox News
I knew this would come up. And do your kids kill other people because they saw it?
Two different things, dont be silly.
Hell no, why always this difference? Sure its exaggerated but why do you think children won't get aggressive when they see violence? You deaden your kids towards violence. They eventually play sometimes bad guy and good guy with wooden swords or plastic pistols or whatever, thats normal. However they wont yell "make me a sandwich or i KILL YOU!" at the dinner table. Same goes for language, they wont yell "what the fuck is this on my sandwich bitch?". But that is not because you censor authentic expression, its because they learned what they can do, what is acceptable and what isn't.
I think the bigger issue, from an esports perspective, is professionalism. I can kind of understand the OP though. I don't have a problem with swearing, but if he does he has a right to censor it as he sees fit for his kids. It's not what i would do, but that's irrelevant.
But just because a commentator CAN swear doesn't mean they SHOULD. Once you get past the age of 14/15 and swearing isn't "cool" any more and whatever your own opinion may be, swearing is seen as immature and uncouth for a reason. I don't find it offensive but i also don't find it especially amusing in and of itself. There is always another word you can use in place of a swear word, and if esports wants to be professional its commentators should carry on using another word... or, you know, just keep yelling "ohhhhhhhhhh" and "oh my god." Because that's entertaining AND informative.
Frankly, though, i can hardly remember a commentator swearing anyway, except on the Day9 Dailies, but that's a much different show with a different audience to general SC2 match coverage.
Well this is something that is going to need to be addressed eventually. As esports gets bigger and more children get into it, parents are going to demand everything be censored. There is a reason broadcasting stations have very strict guidelines they have to follow with regards to swearing.
I don't see it as a bad thing that it starts off now. Really there is no need for swearing. It doesn't add anything to the broadcast. All it does is deter people (like the OP) from watching.
So why not cut it out entirely? Nothing to lose, tons of gain.
From an Esports perspective i think its really important that they don't swear. Would i prefer it if they did, yeah, because I'm comfortable with that language.
From a concerned parents perspective(i am not a parent) I would be more concerned with my childs understanding of use of the "inappropriate" words. Words like fuck are not professional, but they are great words, and your kids will use them, they just need to know when to use them, and when not too.
In something informal like sports or esports does it really matter if incontrol says, "idra is fucked if this push doesn't work and will have no other options if this rush fails". It gets the point across, and its merely entertainment, this isn't our job. this is their job, and their job is to entertain.
If your a parent, i would say don't worry about your kids hearing bad words just spend some time to make sure they understand the contexts that they should use them(they will learn that anyway)
On May 27 2011 01:02 Achaia wrote: That kind of language is absolutely unacceptable for any child by societal standards and that's what the parents in the threads are speaking to.
What makes you think that children adopt this language if they hear it?
experience of being a parent. children are like little parrots, repeating anything and everything they hear. Kinda like people who watch CNN or Fox News
I knew this would come up. And do your kids kill other people because they saw it?
Two different things, dont be silly.
Hell no, why always this difference? Sure its exaggerated but why do you think children won't get aggressive when they see violence? You deaden your kids towards violence. They eventually play sometimes bad guy and good guy with wooden swords or plastic pistols or whatever, thats normal. However they wont yell "make me a sandwich or i KILL YOU!" at the dinner table. Same goes for language, they wont yell "what the fuck is this on my sandwich bitch?". But that is not because you censor authentic expression, its because they learned what they can do, what is acceptable and what isn't.
Cursing and violence are different things by their nature.
People, and children, and animals, and plants, anything living, etc. all understand violence. It brings pain, which we know inherently to avoid. When your child falls down and smacks their head on the floor, you don't have to explain to them that it hurts. The act of causing another to hurt, therefore, is understood by empathy. We inherently understand that if there is someone getting beat up over there, and you don't know why - you don't go over there because you might get beat up too. No one needs that concept explained to them. On the other hand, to one who is not familiar with the meaning of these words, there is no reason "fuck" can't mean the same thing as "hello".
Violence is something we are predisposed to avoiding. Swearing is something we have no predisposition about, since we aren't even able to recognize it until it is pointed out. You can't say swearing and violence are similar just because they are similarly taboo. They're not the same thing.
Yes, kids repeat what they hear - from the time they are old enough to understand their mouth can make noises they are trying to emulate the noises they hear their 'examples' make, whether that be parent, grandparent, or someone else. It pleases them to be able to do so because for years it is something they struggle with. It shows progress.
I personally don't think swearing would have so much power if our culture (USA here) didn't look at it in such a negative light - but it does. And in that light, we prevent our children from swearing to prevent that power from adversely affecting them in the eyes of others. I can't say that I like that it is that way, but since I can't do anything to change it, I can at least keep something as trivial as the particular words used to express an idea from affecting my family. Would you do differently?
I try to keep all my casts G rated. VERY RARELY will I have a video with 1-2 swear words in it, and usually it is if its a video featuring personalities other than myself.
As far as my LiveStream goes I treat it PG-13. I honestly swear a lot in my natural 'gamer' habitat and is just how I enjoy playing games most. I rarely livestream though, but it is comparable to 'live' TV where anything can happen. Especially with gamers, we just swear and get competitive, its all in good fun .
I dont have kids but if I did I would just know that any time they venture onto the internet there is a huge chance they'll stumble upon something inappropriate for their age. Just have to be careful and screen things before sharing it with them. Yay for showing SC2 to your kids though!
On May 27 2011 01:02 Achaia wrote: That kind of language is absolutely unacceptable for any child by societal standards and that's what the parents in the threads are speaking to.
What makes you think that children adopt this language if they hear it?
experience of being a parent. children are like little parrots, repeating anything and everything they hear. Kinda like people who watch CNN or Fox News
I knew this would come up. And do your kids kill other people because they saw it?
Two different things, dont be silly.
Hell no, why always this difference? Sure its exaggerated but why do you think children won't get aggressive when they see violence? You deaden your kids towards violence. They eventually play sometimes bad guy and good guy with wooden swords or plastic pistols or whatever, thats normal. However they wont yell "make me a sandwich or i KILL YOU!" at the dinner table. Same goes for language, they wont yell "what the fuck is this on my sandwich bitch?". But that is not because you censor authentic expression, its because they learned what they can do, what is acceptable and what isn't.
Cursing and violence are different things by their nature.
People, and children, and animals, and plants, anything living, etc. all understand violence. It brings pain, which we know inherently to avoid. When your child falls down and smacks their head on the floor, you don't have to explain to them that it hurts. The act of causing another to hurt, therefore, is understood by empathy. We inherently understand that if there is someone getting beat up over there, and you don't know why - you don't go over there because you might get beat up too. No one needs that concept explained to them. On the other hand, to one who is not familiar with the meaning of these words, there is no reason "fuck" can't mean the same thing as "hello".
Violence is something we are predisposed to avoiding. Swearing is something we have no predisposition about, since we aren't even able to recognize it until it is pointed out. You can't say swearing and violence are similar just because they are similarly taboo. They're not the same thing.
Yes, kids repeat what they hear - from the time they are old enough to understand their mouth can make noises they are trying to emulate the noises they hear their 'examples' make, whether that be parent, grandparent, or someone else. It pleases them to be able to do so because for years it is something they struggle with. It shows progress.
I personally don't think swearing would have so much power if our culture (USA here) didn't look at it in such a negative light - but it does. And in that light, we prevent our children from swearing to prevent that power from adversely affecting them in the eyes of others. I can't say that I like that it is that way, but since I can't do anything to change it, I can at least keep something as trivial as the particular words used to express an idea from affecting my family. Would you do differently?
I agree to the majority. Just a few thoughts if you like to go that deep: Words can hurt people too, they can be violent. It doesn't even matter which words you choose. "dumbass" and "fool" can have exactly the same impact. In addition: Cursing someone is often directly linked with aggression to this person and the urge to do something about it/him. This explains the link between violence and swearing.
In conclusion (and maybe away from the discussion back to the op): Beeps or big "Mature only" signs in casts: No All caster being aware that they should use "less offensive" words to describe: Yes.
On May 27 2011 01:02 Achaia wrote: That kind of language is absolutely unacceptable for any child by societal standards and that's what the parents in the threads are speaking to.
What makes you think that children adopt this language if they hear it?
If you've ever been around a child for longer that a few hours you would know that a lot of their learning at a young age is repeating what they see and hear. A young child (especially before they're in Kindergarten even) will pick up a lot of their language and routine from the environment their parents provide for them. Again, this is something you can't really appreciate unless you're a parent.
Oh and BTW I don't really care if casters swear or not. Everyone caters to different audiences and the people who don't like the swearing don't have to watch casters that swear. My point is just that I don't want my daughter surrounded by that kind of language so when she's around I don't listen to those types of videos or streams.
All I want to say is that the OP bring up a great point, if e-Sports wants to ever expand its market. What I find appalling is this prevailing attitude:
On May 27 2011 02:27 algorithm0r wrote: Myth: E-sports is going to rise to mass acceptance in North America to rival Baseball, Football, Basketball and Hockey.
Myth: E-sports can only attract more viewers by eliminating the VERY FEW curse words and sexual innuendos that occur in the casts.
You make some bold claims, and lack vision for the future of e-sports. If Koreans had that same attitude over a decade ago, Starcraft would never have gotten as popular as it is today. I myself don't believe that e-sports will ever rival baseball, football, or basketball in the states, but I do believe it can rival the less-watched sports. As the generation of gamers gets older, the potential audience only increases.
Now, on the matter of eliminating curse words. In personal streams, or shows like State of the Game, it is up to the discretion of the content creator, swearing is allowed, and should not be controlled by censorship (as it is now), however, professional tournaments, with larger broadcast audiences looking to bring in advertising money and increased viewership will only benefit from removing all swearing in a broadcast.
A perfect example of this is Tastosis at the GSL. Everyone here watches the GSL (I assume). Nobody here complains that they don't swear enough. They are very professional in how they choose to carry themselves during live broadcasts. The Code-A casters do this as well. Tasteless frequently mentions that they are not censored at all by GOM.
Now, I've heard several legitimate claims from individuals in this thread who are hesitant to invite friends to watch e-sports, due to the appearance that is often portrayed. I myself fall into this category. My dream is that e-sports will continue to grow, and that I will have an opportunity to work within that industry. This dream's progress is slowed and even halted when the viewership is too embarrassed or concerned for their personal image to recommend this to a friend. (This is where Europeans tell me it's a personal problem, but here in the culture of the USA, it's a legitimate problem, and you waste your breath if you simply say "It shouldn't be that way") This is further hindered by the inability for parents to trust the content of the broadcasts, so their children can watch.
Organizations like GOM and MLG are excellent examples of forward thinking broadcasts. I would recommend both of these to friends, without hesitation.
The argument about violence is irrelevant to me. If a parent sees the violence and doesn't like it, they won't allow their children to watch it. However if the parent feels the imagery is tame enough, but doesn't like the off-chance of commentator swearing, they will still not allow their children to watch it. We can't prevent the first problem, but we can prevent the second.
When will this thread stop containing posts about parenting? The OP did not come here looking for parental advice, so stop giving it.
It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
On May 26 2011 22:27 primebeef wrote: Idealy this would be a good idea, but it's really hard for a commentator to control their words when something exciting is happening.
every other commentator on national TV manages to do this 99.9% of the time. most people at any decent job manages to do this in public, unless they're in a position of power so that no one can tell them to shut up. it's not that hard.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then.
one of the reasons i love esports so much is because of the language. its different from other tv networks because it seems to be geared towards people my age (18-28). The jokes are some of the same jokes my friends and I use and the language is as well. I understand that as a whole our nation is extremely against the use of bad language, at least compared to many parts of Europe, so I personally love esports even more when I hear someone say fuck or shit during a cast. This could all be just because im a 21 year old college kid who likes when people rebel against society, but i fucking love it none the less.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then.
Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then.
Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand.
Thanks for the response. I will pretend that it isn't condescending.
In response though, since you didn't link me to this previous post, I went through the pages and read your posts. It sounds to me like your idea is that we should cater to the Starcraft 2 audience, and not conform to broadcasting standards because Starcraft 2 viewers are a different kind of audience. While this may be true, it seems illogical to close the gate to new viewers, on the basis of what you assume current Starcraft 2 viewers want.
I watch the GSL, and support it every season with my money. I do the same for MLG. I did the same for NASL when it was announced because I loved the idea of the tournament, and the amount of money involved. It was a logical move in supporting esports. I will not however, be supporting NASL again with my money, if their current broadcasts are indicative of their future broadcasts. I can't stand Gretorp (personal preference) and the production quality is not what I expected with all of the hype (I'm not bitter, just saying I won't support in the future if things aren't improved).
I can't imagine the investor meetings, where someone is attempting to secure funding for the growth of e-sports, showing footage that includes foul language or dirty jokes. I honestly cannot see that being the case.
I agree that official, big broadcasts probably should not be offensive. However, the question that arises here is: Where do you draw the line? Obviously there should be no racist/homophobic jokes, but political correctness can become rather boring. Occasional utterings of "rape", "fuck" etc. should not be a problem in my opinion. After all, ESPORTS is a niche product mostly targeted at and watched by young males. No matter how much you change your marketing, they are probably always going to make up most of the viewers.
Also, your kids probably get the "f-bomb" dropped on them every day at school/kindergarten/sports practice/on the street. Starcraft should be the least of your worries.
On May 27 2011 05:03 insaneMicro wrote: I agree that official, big broadcasts probably should not be offensive. However, the question that arises here is: Where do you draw the line? Obviously there should be no racist/homophobic jokes, but political correctness can become rather boring. Occasional utterings of "rape", "fuck" etc. should not be a problem in my opinion. After all, ESPORTS is a niche product mostly targeted at and watched by young males. No matter how much you change your marketing, they are probably always going to make up most of the viewers.
Also, your kids probably get the "f-bomb" dropped on them every day at school/kindergarten/sports practice/on the street. Starcraft should be the least of your worries.
I seem to remember seeing several female viewers at every OSL/MSL/SPL. The audience has room to grow, especially outside Korea.
On May 27 2011 05:03 insaneMicro wrote: Also, your kids probably get the "f-bomb" dropped on them every day at school/kindergarten/sports practice/on the street. Starcraft should be the least of your worries.
It's not the same thing - when it happens at a parent-sanctioned event, the kid believes not only that it happens, but that it's acceptable. For instance, if someone at school calls an overweight kid a name, the kid knows it happens - whether or not he participates depends somewhat on parenting, somewhat on the circumstantial stuff and somewhat on the kid themselves. On the other hand, if you as a parent call every overweight person you know names behind their back or to their face while the child is around, that tells the kid that it doesn't just happen - that it's acceptable and even necessary.
And anyway, the repeated implication that viewers' parenting standards are "unnecessary" are really beside the point. This isn't a thread about how starcraft fans should raise their kids. I should hope the parents here have a source of better moral guidance than the SC2 community when it comes to teaching kids. I'm not saying your viewpoint is objectively wrong, but that it is not applicable here. Please direct it to such threads as "[H] Vulgarity strat in Parent vs. Child".
On May 27 2011 05:03 insaneMicro wrote: I agree that official, big broadcasts probably should not be offensive. However, the question that arises here is: Where do you draw the line? Obviously there should be no racist/homophobic jokes, but political correctness can become rather boring. Occasional utterings of "rape", "fuck" etc. should not be a problem in my opinion. After all, ESPORTS is a niche product mostly targeted at and watched by young males. No matter how much you change your marketing, they are probably always going to make up most of the viewers.
Also, your kids probably get the "f-bomb" dropped on them every day at school/kindergarten/sports practice/on the street. Starcraft should be the least of your worries.
You don't draw the line. The audience tells you what they will and won't watch by turning on and off your show. It doesn't matter whether the caster thinks it's cool to swear if everyone turns off his stream when he does. Just like it doesn't matter if a caster thinks swearing is immoral if no one watches unless he's doing it... if he wants people to watch his stream at least.
The OP doesn't want to censor anyone, he just wants to know if we can have some kind of rating system so that people know what to expect when they tune into a stream. I suspect that if he had a framework in mind, this thread would be a lot more focused :/ The sad thing is that this had promise for a great discussion topic but is constantly derailed by people discussing whether kids should hear people saying 'fuck' or watch aliens spraying other aliens with acid.
I think that a rating system would be great. There's minimal effort required by streamers and casters... look at a table of language ratings and add it to their stream header/footer. It allows a wider audience of sc2 enthusiasts to comfortably explore new streams and casters without the worry of social/familial backlash. It seems like a great thing to help casters find new audiences.
On May 27 2011 05:33 scorch- wrote: The sad thing is that this had promise for a great discussion topic but is constantly derailed by people discussing whether kids should hear people saying 'fuck' or watch aliens spraying other aliens with acid.
Maybe one of the marketing genius parents on this thread can explain why "The Hangover" was the sixth largest grossing film of 2009? How could they possibly attract that large of an audience with so much foul language and unprofessionalism and sexual innuendo.
Fact: There is an enormous audience out there who appreciate "crude language" and "mature themes" and there is no reason why the E-sports community can't cater to them over the PTA.
You are all making strong doomsday claims that E-sports cannot survive without eliminating WHAT YOU SEE as unprofessional language. However the small community that has such strong standards may not, and need not, be the audience E-sports is aimed at. If you wish they aimed at you, then that is unfortunately your problem, not theirs.
And Toy Story 3 was the top grossing film of 2010.
But as scorch- said, what's the problem with have a rating system that the community can voluntarily get behind and allowing everyone to make an informed choice.
My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
The main thing to remember is that, unlike in, say, football, we don't need all casters and content to follow similar guidances. The main point of the OP is to provide the viewers with an opportunity to prepare themselves instead of relying on common knowledge about the specific casters.
I'd like to point out two things. The first is that most casters' language won't change in a noticeable way if they stop saying "fuck".
The second is that mainstream sports are by no means clean. Yes, the commentators are careful with their language but there is soo much profanity by players and fans alike that makes esports BM look like nothing at all.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then.
Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand.
Thanks for the response. I will pretend that it isn't condescending.
In response though, since you didn't link me to this previous post, I went through the pages and read your posts. It sounds to me like your idea is that we should cater to the Starcraft 2 audience, and not conform to broadcasting standards because Starcraft 2 viewers are a different kind of audience. While this may be true, it seems illogical to close the gate to new viewers, on the basis of what you assume current Starcraft 2 viewers want.
I watch the GSL, and support it every season with my money. I do the same for MLG. I did the same for NASL when it was announced because I loved the idea of the tournament, and the amount of money involved. It was a logical move in supporting esports. I will not however, be supporting NASL again with my money, if their current broadcasts are indicative of their future broadcasts. I can't stand Gretorp (personal preference) and the production quality is not what I expected with all of the hype (I'm not bitter, just saying I won't support in the future if things aren't improved).
I can't imagine the investor meetings, where someone is attempting to secure funding for the growth of e-sports, showing footage that includes foul language or dirty jokes. I honestly cannot see that being the case.
Well, I am sorry if that felt condescending to you but I simply stated what was rather clear to me. I believe that talking about things that you do not understand is rather useless.
I am thankful you took the time to find my posts in the previous pages though (not that it takes more than 15 seconds to do so). Innovations such as E-sports do not go "mainstream" (and mind you, this is a very loose term) by following the blueprint of other ventures. There are no comparable ventures, in fact, as Esports are not traditional sports. On the contrary, they gain popularity by promoting their culture, which is defined by the community of people behind it. And changing a culture on purpose ("let's not allow certain words in the way we communicate") is extremely hard and risky. Because of this, it makes far more sense for a company to play it safe, cater for the existing audience and try to expand it rather than attempting to change the audience's culture/values in an attempt to make the product more palatable to other demographic segments.
You may not realize it, but there are TONS of examples of companies (even major ones) using bad words or sexual references in the way they market their product or in their product itself. An investor does not care about such things, it is perfectly fine as long as it is financially sound.
On May 27 2011 05:55 algorithm0r wrote: My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
There may be large audiences other than the general audience, but none are as large as the general audience. If you want to use your own inherently flawed analogy of high-grossing films, you should really use something other than the 6th highest grossing film of 2009. A very odd choice. History proves the point you are arguing against.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then.
Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand.
Thanks for the response. I will pretend that it isn't condescending.
In response though, since you didn't link me to this previous post, I went through the pages and read your posts. It sounds to me like your idea is that we should cater to the Starcraft 2 audience, and not conform to broadcasting standards because Starcraft 2 viewers are a different kind of audience. While this may be true, it seems illogical to close the gate to new viewers, on the basis of what you assume current Starcraft 2 viewers want.
I watch the GSL, and support it every season with my money. I do the same for MLG. I did the same for NASL when it was announced because I loved the idea of the tournament, and the amount of money involved. It was a logical move in supporting esports. I will not however, be supporting NASL again with my money, if their current broadcasts are indicative of their future broadcasts. I can't stand Gretorp (personal preference) and the production quality is not what I expected with all of the hype (I'm not bitter, just saying I won't support in the future if things aren't improved).
I can't imagine the investor meetings, where someone is attempting to secure funding for the growth of e-sports, showing footage that includes foul language or dirty jokes. I honestly cannot see that being the case.
Well, I am sorry if that felt condescending to you but I simply stated what was rather clear to me. I believe that talking about things that you do not understand is rather useless.
I am thankful you took the time to find my posts in the previous pages though (not that it takes more than 15 seconds to do so). Innovations such as E-sports do not go "mainstream" (and mind you, this is a very loose term) by following the blueprint of other ventures. There are no comparable ventures, in fact, as Esports are not traditional sports. On the contrary, they gain popularity by promoting their culture, which is defined by the community of people behind it. And changing a culture on purpose ("let's not allow certain words in the way we communicate") is extremely hard and risky. Because of this, it makes far more sense for a company to play it safe, cater for the existing audience and try to expand it rather than attempting to change the audience's culture/values in an attempt to make the product more palatable to other demographic segments.
You may not realize it, but there are TONS of examples of companies (even major ones) using bad words or sexual references in the way they market their product or in their product itself. An investor does not care about such things, it is perfectly fine as long as it is financially sound.
While you may have a point, you have produced no examples that truly support your statements. On the other hand, Starcraft has already created an industry in Korea. This industry has been successful for over a decade, and has proven profitable. Is there any reason we should not use Korea as a model for the growth potential in other countries? If it is not a good model, why? If you do produce an example in support of your statements, why is it a better model for Starcraft broadcasting than the proven model that exists in Korea today?
On May 27 2011 05:55 algorithm0r wrote: My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
There may be large audiences other than the general audience, but none are as large as the general audience.
I feel like most starcraft 2 related things are small enough in viewership where they shouldn't have to worry about trying not to offend people. If it is not GOM or MLG I would expect maybe a curse word here or there or maybe a crude joke but are state of the game and smaller tournaments large enough were they should feel obligated to have a rating system.
I makes me sick when there is some form of entertainment and some people like it and some people don't and then people try to change the entertainment because they feel offended or it is not perfectly ideal for them. Because if they actually made the casts more bland and phony it would actually be worse for me but I would realize that It is fine that I am offended and get over it. Phony voices and ballwashing in casts just really turn me off even though it is considered "professional".
People in this thread act like there are some crazy shit going down in NASL casts... It is a few curses and silly sexual innuendos that make little senses and should go over the head of the precious little ones. That is the only major tournament that I have seen this kind of behavior in and it feels so minor and probably will be changed so they can chase the impossible goal of making everybody happy.
On May 27 2011 05:55 algorithm0r wrote: My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
There may be large audiences other than the general audience, but none are as large as the general audience.
Define general audience.
It's not my term, but I'd assume it's in reference to the G rating by the MPAA, which means in fact, General Audience. I only used the term in the light of the way it was being used by algorithm0r. A more proper term might be 'a more general audience' since there really is no way to define 'general audience'.
On May 27 2011 04:25 dOofuS wrote: It's pretty simple to me. If we want larger prize pools, more competition, and increased opportunities at home and abroad, we need to support this mentality. More viewers means more advertising money. More advertising money means the industry can grow.
You do not have a lot of education in marketing, do you?
Care to explain? For the record I do not. I am currently in University, studying communications, but have not yet progressed to any of the advertising/marketing classes. Please, educate me.
Well, no. I am not going to spend time explaining marketing theory to you on Teamliquid, sorry. All I will say is that your perspective is quite simplistic.
Fair enough, we can just assume you are wrong and continue on then.
Or you could read my previous posts in this topic and avoid discussing things you do not know nor understand.
Thanks for the response. I will pretend that it isn't condescending.
In response though, since you didn't link me to this previous post, I went through the pages and read your posts. It sounds to me like your idea is that we should cater to the Starcraft 2 audience, and not conform to broadcasting standards because Starcraft 2 viewers are a different kind of audience. While this may be true, it seems illogical to close the gate to new viewers, on the basis of what you assume current Starcraft 2 viewers want.
I watch the GSL, and support it every season with my money. I do the same for MLG. I did the same for NASL when it was announced because I loved the idea of the tournament, and the amount of money involved. It was a logical move in supporting esports. I will not however, be supporting NASL again with my money, if their current broadcasts are indicative of their future broadcasts. I can't stand Gretorp (personal preference) and the production quality is not what I expected with all of the hype (I'm not bitter, just saying I won't support in the future if things aren't improved).
I can't imagine the investor meetings, where someone is attempting to secure funding for the growth of e-sports, showing footage that includes foul language or dirty jokes. I honestly cannot see that being the case.
Well, I am sorry if that felt condescending to you but I simply stated what was rather clear to me. I believe that talking about things that you do not understand is rather useless.
I am thankful you took the time to find my posts in the previous pages though (not that it takes more than 15 seconds to do so). Innovations such as E-sports do not go "mainstream" (and mind you, this is a very loose term) by following the blueprint of other ventures. There are no comparable ventures, in fact, as Esports are not traditional sports. On the contrary, they gain popularity by promoting their culture, which is defined by the community of people behind it. And changing a culture on purpose ("let's not allow certain words in the way we communicate") is extremely hard and risky. Because of this, it makes far more sense for a company to play it safe, cater for the existing audience and try to expand it rather than attempting to change the audience's culture/values in an attempt to make the product more palatable to other demographic segments.
You may not realize it, but there are TONS of examples of companies (even major ones) using bad words or sexual references in the way they market their product or in their product itself. An investor does not care about such things, it is perfectly fine as long as it is financially sound.
While you may have a point, you have produced no examples that truly support your statements. On the other hand, Starcraft has already created an industry in Korea. This industry has been successful for over a decade, and has proven profitable. Is there any reason we should not use Korea as a model for the growth potential in other countries? If it is not a good model, why? If you do produce an example in support of your statements, why is it a better model for Starcraft broadcasting than the proven model that exists in Korea today?
What examples do you want me to give? Ask and you shall be given. And yes, there are enormous and outstanding reasons why Korea cannot be a model in other countries: it is hugely different culture from the West and a much smaller market geographically. What works in one country does not necessarily work in another. If you want examples or are interested in this, I can recommend you a few books.
On May 27 2011 05:55 algorithm0r wrote: My only point is that there are many LARGE audiences other than the General audience. Stop claiming the only way to grow the sport is by catering to YOUR audience.
Also the crying over a rating system is moot. ASSUME THAT ALL CASTS ARE RATED PG-13... it has been stated so many times. The real issue is that implicit in the rating system argument is that the casts should be rated PG, or at least NASL. What if NASL is happy being rated PG-13? Does it hurt their audience... I'm not sure it does and the parents in this thread have not convinced me of this.
Will parents and kids watch NASL if it becomes PG? Maybe. Will many gamers stop watching because it becomes PG? Also maybe.
There may be large audiences other than the general audience, but none are as large as the general audience.
Define general audience.
It's not my term, but I'd assume it's in reference to the G rating by the MPAA, which means in fact, General Audience. I only used the term in the light of the way it was being used by algorithm0r. A more proper term might be 'a more general audience' since there really is no way to define 'general audience'.
Alright, I can't just keep lurking, as I'm quite opinionated on this issue.
I've watched Steven Bonnell's stream for ages, and I honestly love his commentary which is occasionally full of spastic swearing and bad manners. I love SotG, and I like that it's geared towards people my age, I relate to them.
I didn't have a bad childhood, my parents taught me never to swear, but it happened. It doesn't make me a better or worse person than you, it doesn't make me any less cultured than you, I'd really like it if these people who seem to think that would just go elsewhere with their elitist bullshit.
As I've said earlier, I watch Destiny play. I have to sign something saying I'm 18 or older to watch his stream. I absolutely support this, and maybe on the stream page a rating system. I don't support censorship of any kind EXCEPT on major tournaments, that being said, just like in real life sports, occasionally the casters make a blunder and swear. Fact: I've seen Tasteless swear during major games, he looked and sounded embarrassed, afterwards, but it happens. It's going to happen, no matter what.
I like that there are parents that are open enough to let their kids watch streams with them, but it's kind of counteracted when you're concerned about the incredibly sparse "harsh" language on stuff like SotG which I barely notice.
Another thing I'd like to say is, this language isn't going to destroy any popularity SC2 can possibly have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the main viewing audience in Korea actually youth? Now, again, I have to point out that, as far as I know, in most cultures the youth are the ones cursing.
I'm not suggesting we have a profanity filled esport, only that we should be lenient and understanding if someone makes a mistake on a cast, and not to censor any PERSONAL streams (This means children simply wouldn't be able to watch any streams, I might add, because there's bound to be a few f-bombs once in a while.)
I have a hard time with the rape and retard usage. I myself like to make light of everything, I actually have a retarded brother, I have a close family member who was raped, I still make fun, of course, not in front of them, but humor is my escape, and I don't really feel like it'd be any better to avoid it, being ashamed. That being said, my personal relationships with people and what I say to them are different from me talking to thousands, or millions of people, obviously. I think rape, retard, whatever, should be noted in casters heads not to say.
It's important to realize words are only as harmful as you make them out to be.
I added an option on the TL stream control panel to mark the language level. This is purely voluntary and is the responsibility of the streamer to set correctly, but hopefully this should help you find streams which don't have any bad language if that's what you want.
On May 27 2011 06:48 R1CH wrote: I added an option on the TL stream control panel to mark the language level. This is purely voluntary and is the responsibility of the streamer to set correctly, but hopefully this should help you find streams which don't have any bad language if that's what you want.
Not that I'm probably going to need this for a few years yet, but this is brilliant. Thanks R1CH!
Sheila Broflovski: Remember what the MPAA says; Horrific, Deplorable violence is okay, as long as people don't say any naughty woids! That's what this war is all about!
On May 26 2011 15:55 Xacalite wrote: Oh man, I dont get how so many people in this thread already (after 1 year of Starcraft) can have the audacity to demand anything form any caster. Censoring what they are alowed to say is even more outrageous. Well I guess thats what a Husky or TotalBiscuit brings to this community...
I like being blamed for something for no apparent reason at all, it's pretty awesome.
On May 27 2011 06:48 R1CH wrote: I added an option on the TL stream control panel to mark the language level. This is purely voluntary and is the responsibility of the streamer to set correctly, but hopefully this should help you find streams which don't have any bad language if that's what you want.
Like anything looking to break through to be considered mainstream entertainment problems like this are going to arise. It is inevitable. Instead of the people looking for their current for of entertainment to not change you either have to accomplish two things. One is to in same way slow down the growth of E-sports so that everything gets to stay the same. The other alternative would be to do your part in changing what society views as acceptable to view/enjoy as entertainment. Good luck in whichever part you decide to participate in.
I have a child, (2yrs) and she doesn't watch Starcraft with me but picked up enough to confuse DJwheat with Day9. However she mimics what I say and what she hears especially when said with enough emotion and she's not at that stage where I can just tell her not to use the word. I often have Starcraft(or other gaming podcasts) casts on in the background not being watched but listened while doing other things. During this time I definitely want stuff on the cleaner language side.
I watch GSL, NASL, IPL, EGMC, other major tournaments or league. For my own enjoyment, I want these to be fairly clean, regardless of if I had a kid or not. I do not myself appreciate a tirade like 'OMG, That was fucking awesome! Did you see that fucking mothership!" style. You can be excited without the foul language. The occasional word dropped is fine, the string bugs me. NASL is by far the worst offender but not bad enough to make me walk away, yet. But it is definitely becoming grating, and because they can occupy that 5pm-9pm timeslot of background noise I'm more sensitive to it.
I will also turn casts(gaming,starcraft,etcetera) on at work for background noise. Obviously, I'm going to be pretty careful about them so not to offend anyone else.
It would suck if State of the Game decided it needed to be a clean show, I like to relax and have a beer and listen to them. It kind of sucks (for me) that Inside the Game language is borderline as it's on at 4pm, I'd like to listen to it live. But I have a sponge running around repeating words. I used to be able to listen to/watch Day9 while putting her to sleep but he just started swearing too much. Or she started repeating too much and then I noticed the swearing so that had to stop. =)
It all comes down to, I just want a way to easily be able to tell if the content I'm about to listen to is appropriate for my current circumstances.
On May 27 2011 06:48 R1CH wrote: I added an option on the TL stream control panel to mark the language level. This is purely voluntary and is the responsibility of the streamer to set correctly, but hopefully this should help you find streams which don't have any bad language if that's what you want.
That's very cool, and I hope casters take advantage of it. Thanks!
Ok you didn't like my Hangover example. Then please explain the extreme popularity of ROOTDestiny aka Steven Bonnell III stream?
It is quite clear that he is not the best Zerg player, but his popularity started in Beta BECAUSE he was profane, used off-color humor, and has a good BM style. This is the culture we are in. He makes so much money of SC2 casting now because he is like this. If in Beta he thought "gee, little kids and uptight parents might not like my stream" he'd be nowhere.
On May 26 2011 15:55 Xacalite wrote: Oh man, I dont get how so many people in this thread already (after 1 year of Starcraft) can have the audacity to demand anything form any caster. Censoring what they are alowed to say is even more outrageous. Well I guess thats what a Husky or TotalBiscuit brings to this community...
I like being blamed for something for no apparent reason at all, it's pretty awesome.
I think he means you keep it pretty PG TB, along with Husky of course.
On that note, maybe that's part of the reason why you and Husky are so popular. Great casts and normally pretty PG.
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
Pretty much agree with this. The big tournaments(GSL, NASL, IPL, TSL) should try and keep it PG. It's a good thing that parents are starting to watch with their kids, getting a whole new generation into e-sports is always good and casters should accommodate as best as they can.
”StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty” has a 16 year age limit. It contains an abundance of violence and bad language, and should not be played by anyone younger than 16. In the multiplayer mode you will, as in other online games, meet some challenges in relation to certain players who may act in an unsuitable fashion, and we advise you, therefore, not to reveal any personal information.
I'm sorry but I'm having a rough time taking the thread creator seriously. If you are worried about your two kids, that are both UNDER AGED for viewing and playing the game, maybe you shouldn't watch streamed content with your kids. It sounds so hypocritical when you say you want to protect your children from bad language but you still watch a game where the main goal is to slaughter your opponent. I don't have a solution for your problem and I hope casters and organisations don't waste time on censoring their casts etc for a age group that aren't even suppose to be involved with the game.
So, there's Howard Stern and Jerry Springer... Nobody is asking Steven Bennell III to change, and I think he already had in his description of the channel what kind of language you will get if you listen to it. I appreciate it, that's why I've never tuned in.
On May 27 2011 07:48 VillageBC wrote:The occasional word dropped is fine, the string bugs me.
I'd be interested to hear more parents' thoughts on this.
Personally, I don't mind swearing as long as it's occasional. Not because I get offended but because a lot of swearing usually means lack of other content and, also, that the actual swear words mean less. I want saying "Fuck!" to really mean something.
But I am not a parent and I won't be a parent anytime soon. Are you guys okay with the occasional swearing or would you prefer completely clean casts?
Also, please note that this is not a question whether it is good for children to be protected or whether it would actually protect them from anything anyway.
On May 25 2011 01:09 Chill wrote: I agree with this and I think it's something all casters should take into account when commentating. More and more these days parents are getting their children involved in watching Starcraft. I think any major broadcast should keep things more or less PG. I still feel like user livestreams and streamed shows should be expected to have mature content.
Pretty much agree with this. The big tournaments(GSL, NASL, IPL, TSL) should try and keep it PG. It's a good thing that parents are starting to watch with their kids, getting a whole new generation into e-sports is always good and casters should accommodate as best as they can.
”StarCraft 2: Wings of Liberty” has a 16 year age limit. It contains an abundance of violence and bad language, and should not be played by anyone younger than 16. In the multiplayer mode you will, as in other online games, meet some challenges in relation to certain players who may act in an unsuitable fashion, and we advise you, therefore, not to reveal any personal information.
I'm sorry but I'm having a rough time taking the thread creator seriously. If you are worried about your two kids, that are both UNDER AGED for viewing and playing the game, maybe you shouldn't watch streamed content with your kids. It sounds so hypocritical when you say you want to protect your children from bad language but you still watch a game where the main goal is to slaughter your opponent. I don't have a solution for your problem and I hope casters and organisations don't waste time on censoring their casts etc for a age group that aren't even suppose to be involved with the game.
+1 to you sir
Why are the posters watching a 16+ game with their kids?
Casters: be yourself. If you tend to swear, so be it. If you dont then that's obviously fine too. It's like watching a Call of Duty stream with your kids and then complaining about the swearing. Get a grip guys!
On May 27 2011 08:06 iNcontroL wrote: I propose we advance this thread to a more literal place
Does it bother anybody else that khaldor casts in german? Or totalbiscuit? I think in order for sc2 and ESPORTS to thrive we must only speak english.
Thoughts?
I think it would be more appropriate for casters to speak in the tongue of their ancestors. I.e. Artosis should cast in Polish, Wolf in German, and iNcontrol in Cherokee.
You're probably right about casting language. Being a young male, I have to admit I err on the side of vulgar more often than I would like. It doesn't bother me, but a step towards the civil would be a great advance for the mainstream spread of esports.
On May 27 2011 08:15 Psychobabas wrote: Why are the posters watching a 16+ game with their kids?
Because nobody is stupid enough to base their decisions completely off an arbitrary rating system. I also occasionally take more then the recommended number of pills on the aspirin bottle.
I'm pretty sure GSL is always PG. It's a difficult one, there's definitely a time and a place when PG stifles a show, but then I think it should be made clear that it's going to include it.
EDIT: I like R1CHs addition actually.
EDIT 2: Reading up through the comments I think a lot of people commenting just don't have kids and probably don't know much about them. They are so impressionable, if they see a caster swearing, someone they will look up to, they start to see it as slightly more acceptable. There is certainly a time and a place for swearing but it's pretty uncouth and should be reserved, and kids don't quite get that.
It's a T rated game yeah, but if a parent deems the game OK for their child, but swearing not, then that's the parents choice. They should at least be able to tell whether there is going to be additional mature content, though I'm not advocating censorship just clearer distinctions.
And as others have said, you're going to have a problem with the Swedish.
On May 27 2011 08:15 Psychobabas wrote: Why are the posters watching a 16+ game with their kids?
Because nobody is stupid enough to base their decisions completely off an arbitrary rating system. I also occasionally take more then the recommended number of pills on the aspirin bottle.
Well that's well and good, but the rating system is meant to let you know what to expect. If you take more than the recommended number of pills on the aspirin bottle and come out alright, that's all well and good, but if it fucks you up, then you had that label so it was your decision to go against recommendations.
Similarly, the point being brought up is the rating of the game is there, you can look at the rating and assume that's the age expectation, so if you are letting your kids play and watch the game, that's all well and good, but then it looks stupid if you complain about the content which is equivalent to the label on the bloody box.
On May 27 2011 08:31 Deadeight wrote: I had never even thought about this...
I'm pretty sure GSL is always PG. It's a difficult one, there's definitely a time and a place when PG stifles a show, but then I think it should be made clear that it's going to include it.
EDIT: I like R1CHs addition actually.
I would say the GSL(international cast) is PG-13, I would say almost every major event is PG-13 to be honest.
On May 27 2011 08:06 iNcontroL wrote: I propose we advance this thread to a more literal place
Does it bother anybody else that khaldor casts in german? Or totalbiscuit? I think in order for sc2 and ESPORTS to thrive we must only speak english.
Thoughts?
Well, only if they scream "NIEN". Then, and ONLY then, will that be acceptable for non-English speaking people to cast sc2. (It's sad that I had to google how to spell that xD)
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I really like the idea to add the "maturity level" thingy to stream settings. I hope this will help people out! I know for myself, sometimes I really dislike when people swear, and then sometimes I don't mind it at all!
Yay R1CH, saving the ESPORTS day one change at a time!
On May 26 2011 15:55 Xacalite wrote: Oh man, I dont get how so many people in this thread already (after 1 year of Starcraft) can have the audacity to demand anything form any caster. Censoring what they are alowed to say is even more outrageous. Well I guess thats what a Husky or TotalBiscuit brings to this community...
I like being blamed for something for no apparent reason at all, it's pretty awesome.
TB is an awesome caster ^^. What's wrong with bringing new people into a game? That's like saying, "NO I DUN WAN STARCRAFF TO GROO ANYMO!". Sheeeeesh -_______________-.
Unfortunately going mainstream makes the prudish/PC meter start inching upward, so to keep that viewer-ship high and that money flowing the content provided needs to have its sharp edges rounded.
It sucks but the other option is much less exposure and possibly a poor image for eSports. In this case the growth outweighs watching your language on a major cast.
On May 27 2011 08:51 Lokken wrote: Unfortunately going mainstream makes the prudish/PC meter start inching upward, so to keep that viewer-ship high and that money flowing the content provided needs to have its sharp edges rounded.
It sucks but the other option is much less exposure and possibly a poor image for eSports. In this case the growth outweighs watching your language on a major cast.
Should the industry self-rate like the ESRB does?
I don't know about that.
Also, I think the labeling on the box should cover as a sufficient rating for most, if not all major Starcraft 2 casts. Nothing exceeds what you would expect from reading the back of the Starcraft 2 box, the T rating with the little notes. It's made to be age appropriate for it's audience and for those who are fine with allowing folks younger than it's recommendation to watch it. I don't really think we need to self-rate any more than the language notification that R1CH set up(good job on that by the way). That should be up to the streamers and casters to notify if they're going to exceed the threshold with explicit content, otherwise the default assumption(and the content of almost all major events) should be roughly the T-rating with it's little notes.
On May 27 2011 08:06 iNcontroL wrote: I propose we advance this thread to a more literal place
Does it bother anybody else that khaldor casts in german? Or totalbiscuit? I think in order for sc2 and ESPORTS to thrive we must only speak english.
Thoughts?
Well, only if they scream "NIEN". Then, and ONLY then, will that be acceptable for non-English speaking people to cast sc2. (It's sad that I had to google how to spell that xD)
-----
I really like the idea to add the "maturity level" thingy to stream settings. I hope this will help people out! I know for myself, sometimes I really dislike when people swear, and then sometimes I don't mind it at all!
Yay R1CH, saving the ESPORTS day one change at a time!
On May 26 2011 15:55 Xacalite wrote: Oh man, I dont get how so many people in this thread already (after 1 year of Starcraft) can have the audacity to demand anything form any caster. Censoring what they are alowed to say is even more outrageous. Well I guess thats what a Husky or TotalBiscuit brings to this community...
I like being blamed for something for no apparent reason at all, it's pretty awesome.
TB is an awesome caster ^^. What's wrong with bringing new people into a game? That's like saying, "NO I DUN WAN STARCRAFF TO GROO ANYMO!". Sheeeeesh -_______________-.
Well, actually it is "nein" lol. "When those two vowels go walking, the second one does the talking". (Taking German in high school).
On topic: I don't necessarily agree with censorship or providing two forms of a cast (one uncensored and one clean), but I do like the addition of the warnings/notices. A broadcaster shouldn't feel obligated to change their content for those that don't like it, but they should have some sort of indicator as to the level of language used.
Similarly, the point being brought up is the rating of the game is there, you can look at the rating and assume that's the age expectation, so if you are letting your kids play and watch the game, that's all well and good, but then it looks stupid if you complain about the content which is equivalent to the label on the bloody box.
*snip*
I just don't believe the rating of the game, and the rating of cast are intrinsically linked like that. Guess it's just a fundamental difference in how I view it. I listen to SC2 without watching it quite often just like I'll listen to hockey play by play on the radio. So the cast and the game are separate items to me and evaluated as such.
On May 27 2011 08:06 iNcontroL wrote: I propose we advance this thread to a more literal place
Does it bother anybody else that khaldor casts in german? Or totalbiscuit? I think in order for sc2 and ESPORTS to thrive we must only speak english.
Thoughts?
Well, only if they scream "NIEN". Then, and ONLY then, will that be acceptable for non-English speaking people to cast sc2. (It's sad that I had to google how to spell that xD)
-----
I really like the idea to add the "maturity level" thingy to stream settings. I hope this will help people out! I know for myself, sometimes I really dislike when people swear, and then sometimes I don't mind it at all!
Yay R1CH, saving the ESPORTS day one change at a time!
-----
On May 27 2011 07:08 TotalBiscuit wrote:
On May 26 2011 15:55 Xacalite wrote: Oh man, I dont get how so many people in this thread already (after 1 year of Starcraft) can have the audacity to demand anything form any caster. Censoring what they are alowed to say is even more outrageous. Well I guess thats what a Husky or TotalBiscuit brings to this community...
I like being blamed for something for no apparent reason at all, it's pretty awesome.
TB is an awesome caster ^^. What's wrong with bringing new people into a game? That's like saying, "NO I DUN WAN STARCRAFF TO GROO ANYMO!". Sheeeeesh -_______________-.
Well, actually it is "nein" lol. "When those two vowels go walking, the second one does the talking". (Taking German in high school).
On topic: I don't necessarily agree with censorship or providing two forms of a cast (one uncensored and one clean), but I do like the addition of the warnings/notices. A broadcaster shouldn't feel obligated to change their content for those that don't like it, but they should have some sort of indicator as to the level of language used.
Something everyone needs to keep in mind about ESRB and other official game ratings is they do not take online interaction into account. The rating is specifically for content inside the game. If ESRB took into account multiplayer interaction and communication, Starcraft 2 and almost every MMO would be rated Adults Only. If SC2 had said fuck a single time in the game dialog it would have been rated 17+.
I really like this OP, obviously I can't read everything thats been said but I cast a lot and always try to be nice, never curse and be friendly. I've been wondering whether I was too clean or not, but I really focus on the game when I do things so its refreshing to see a reassuring post like this
On May 27 2011 09:22 BondGamer wrote: Something everyone needs to keep in mind about ESRB and other official game ratings is they do not take online interaction into account. The rating is specifically for content inside the game. If ESRB took into account multiplayer interaction and communication, Starcraft 2 and almost every MMO would be rated Adults Only. If SC2 had said fuck a single time in the game dialog it would have been rated 17+.
They don't take online interaction into account, but that doesn't change the minimum rating of the game, for example, WoW is rated T with all it's notes, with online interaction not rated though the game is purely online, the content of the game is still T and it can't go any lower than that, but online interaction may take it higher.
That said, most casters keep casts around a PG-13ish level, which is roughly equivalent to a T rating(though I do believe the ESRB has some different takes on language). All major events are pretty much PG-13, with content matching what you would expect from the labeling on the Starcraft 2 box.
Starcraft is Rated T for Teen, look on the box. it is NOT rated PG. i totally understand where the OP is coming from but i disagree with him. I am not saying it's ok to be constantly making mature jokes, however there is nothing wrong with them coming up once in a while. as for cursing, whats the big deal?? it's just a word, hearing an F-bomb here or there is nothing to freak out about.
For those who disagree with the OP let me put a different spin on it: sponsors. Anyone who is serious about bringing sponsorship dollars into this sport should be active in making its public image G-rated. All it would take is for some story to run in a newspaper about how starcraft casters use the word "rape" in casts and the next thing you know it will be bye-bye sponsors.
I also find this kind of language offensive and inappropriate for kids and I frankly don't enjoy listening to it. But I don't expect or want to impose my standards on others.
On May 27 2011 09:41 sick_transit wrote: For those who disagree with the OP let me put a different spin on it: sponsors. Anyone who is serious about bringing sponsorship dollars into this sport should be active in making its public image G-rated. All it would take is for some story to run in a newspaper about how starcraft casters use the word "rape" in casts and the next thing you know it will be bye-bye sponsors.
I also find this kind of language offensive and inappropriate for kids and I frankly don't enjoy listening to it. But I don't expect or want to impose my standards on others.
I don't think you have to be straight up G-rated to bring in sponsorship or money...
The word "rape" has already been mentioned as inappropriate for a cast for reasons outside of age appropriation.
On May 27 2011 06:48 R1CH wrote: I added an option on the TL stream control panel to mark the language level. This is purely voluntary and is the responsibility of the streamer to set correctly, but hopefully this should help you find streams which don't have any bad language if that's what you want.
so many things going through my head right now to say but the best i can do is "Thank You"
this is a big step in the right direction and I hope it will be used effectively and not abused. I certainly plan on supporting those streams that take the effort to be "family friendly"
I think the voluntary labelling is a good system to use as it isn't complicated or strict - just something convenient for viewers that don't want explicit language for whatever reason. As for my own opinion on the whole language standard deal, I don't think that explicit language should really be a big deal but I understand that others might be offended by it and appreciate the warning.
On May 27 2011 09:33 TheRealNidhogg wrote: Starcraft is Rated T for Teen, look on the box. it is NOT rated PG. i totally understand where the OP is coming from but i disagree with him. I am not saying it's ok to be constantly making mature jokes, however there is nothing wrong with them coming up once in a while. as for cursing, whats the big deal?? it's just a word, hearing an F-bomb here or there is nothing to freak out about.
Can you "unlearn" that F-word (and similar stuff) from any kids who pick it up from these casts?(*1) I doubt it, so why can you say that it isnt something to freak about? The alternative is not to have kids watch Starcraft, but that would hinder the growth.
Our language deteriorates / gets more brutal / shitty all the time, but that isnt an improvement. So we should do everything we can to halt this development. You can swear using not so bad words, but the sad story is that most people only know f...
(*1) Since there isnt any prescience to detect bad words to be said in 5 seconds the viewing can't even be censored by attentive parents. These parents are a myth anyways, because todays society creates too many single-parents, households which have two parents with jobs or "freedom loving" parents who dont look after their children out of the desire to "be nice". So any "bright idea" to put the controlling aspect on the viewers doesnt work.
So I have two kids, 4 and 8, and I really like to listen to porn on full blast on through speakers on the background. Can't those companies agree on making the text in those films somewhat kidfriendly ("Fuck me in the ass and cum all over my face" is not kidfriendly!!11)
I as a parent myself can't, for the love of god, stand all this parenting crap. Why do I have to do it, I already made those little things, now it's your turn "rest of the world" to do your best so my kid does not get involved with things it shouldn't.
Damn fuck, I CAN'T EVEN VISIT A STRIPCLUB WITH MY 8 YEAR OLD WITHOUT HIM SEEING SOME BOOBS AND NIPPLES. Fix that society, for fucks sake.
I mean seriously, I hate to tell you but: your kids - your responsibility in parenting them, not society's
Wow... so the streams now have an icon indicating the f-factor... too bad that won't work (and everyone will just have the mature language icon). Just saw it in the most recent state of the game: InControl just spoke about this thread, 3 seconds later HuK joins and immediately releases a dozen of these unwanted words.
Now concerning kids ... so maybe you can prevent them from learning the F-word in starcraft, but are you locking them in or what? Aren't they going outside to play or even to school? Guess where they get these words from, if not from their parents... right, from EVERYWHERE else (except maybe TV (kinda ironic, since you see boobs there (and also everywhere on the streets (commercial posters etc)) all the time). Pretty pointless trying to ninja-mute streams imho... rather teach them not so say such things, even if they heard them already and hear them others say every few seconds.
BTW, in Germany they don't censor f- and similar words in television and I'm pretty sure kids don't run around shouting them all the time. At least not more than American kids do.
On May 27 2011 13:53 Starfox wrote: So I have two kids, 4 and 8, and I really like to listen to porn on full blast on through speakers on the background. Can't those companies agree on making the text in those films somewhat kidfriendly ("Fuck me in the ass and cum all over my face" is not kidfriendly!!11)
I as a parent myself can't, for the love of god, stand all this parenting crap. Why do I have to do it, I already made those little things, now it's your turn "rest of the world" to do your best so my kid does not get involved with things it shouldn't.
Damn fuck, I CAN'T EVEN VISIT A STRIPCLUB WITH MY 8 YEAR OLD WITHOUT HIM SEEING SOME BOOBS AND NIPPLES. Fix that society, for fucks sake.
I mean seriously, I hate to tell you but: your kids - your responsibility in parenting them, not society's
This is so thoughtful. Your insight is invaluable. Thank you for that.
On May 27 2011 13:53 Starfox wrote: So I have two kids, 4 and 8, and I really like to listen to porn on full blast on through speakers on the background. Can't those companies agree on making the text in those films somewhat kidfriendly ("Fuck me in the ass and cum all over my face" is not kidfriendly!!11)
I as a parent myself can't, for the love of god, stand all this parenting crap. Why do I have to do it, I already made those little things, now it's your turn "rest of the world" to do your best so my kid does not get involved with things it shouldn't.
Damn fuck, I CAN'T EVEN VISIT A STRIPCLUB WITH MY 8 YEAR OLD WITHOUT HIM SEEING SOME BOOBS AND NIPPLES. Fix that society, for fucks sake.
I mean seriously, I hate to tell you but: your kids - your responsibility in parenting them, not society's
So you think its everyones own responsibility that they can defend themseves against robbers and that the police - which is the representative of society - shouldnt help you out? Great idea because we can just get rid of all those cops and save tons of tax money. [/sarcasm off]
Your analogy with porn stinks, because porn isnt intended for minors. Sure there is lots of free porn on the internet which smartass boys will find and spread eventually, but obviously that isnt something which society should act upon. [*sigh*] [/sarcasm off second try]
Everyone is responsible for how they behave in public and saying they shouldnt be held responsible for it is just stupid. It isnt just the parents job to show kids how to behave correctly, its everyones job. So if your kids arent at home but some friends of theirs come over it is NOT OK for you to take them into the living room where you are watching your porn and do what you have to do while watching that. It is your responsibility to "behave" ... even though they ARENT YOUR KIDS. The same holds true for everywhere a kid might watch you, so better not cross that street while the traffic light in front of that school is red for pedestrians and whatnot ...
On May 27 2011 13:53 Starfox wrote: So I have two kids, 4 and 8, and I really like to listen to porn on full blast on through speakers on the background. Can't those companies agree on making the text in those films somewhat kidfriendly ("Fuck me in the ass and cum all over my face" is not kidfriendly!!11)
I as a parent myself can't, for the love of god, stand all this parenting crap. Why do I have to do it, I already made those little things, now it's your turn "rest of the world" to do your best so my kid does not get involved with things it shouldn't.
Damn fuck, I CAN'T EVEN VISIT A STRIPCLUB WITH MY 8 YEAR OLD WITHOUT HIM SEEING SOME BOOBS AND NIPPLES. Fix that society, for fucks sake.
I mean seriously, I hate to tell you but: your kids - your responsibility in parenting them, not society's
So you think its everyones own responsibility that they can defend themseves against robbers and that the police - which is the representative of society - shouldnt help you out? Great idea because we can just get rid of all those cops and save tons of tax money. [/sarcasm off]
Your analogy with porn stinks, because porn isnt intended for minors. Sure there is lots of free porn on the internet which smartass boys will find and spread eventually, but obviously that isnt something which society should act upon. [*sigh*] [/sarcasm off second try]
Everyone is responsible for how they behave in public and saying they shouldnt be held responsible for it is just stupid. It isnt just the parents job to show kids how to behave correctly, its everyones job. So if your kids arent at home but some friends of theirs come over it is NOT OK for you to take them into the living room where you are watching your porn and do what you have to do while watching that. It is your responsibility to "behave" ... even though they ARENT YOUR KIDS. The same holds true for everywhere a kid might watch you, so better not cross that street while the traffic light in front of that school is red for pedestrians and whatnot ...
You make absolutely no sense. You use your stupid assault/robbery analogy but it's already pointed out why that's a failed analogy itself.
Furthermore, Starcraft 2 and casting events, leagues and tournaments aren't "the public", those are private events for a game with an age recommendation. Your analogies don't work and while his was excessive because of the nature of pornography, his point remains.
So, I like leaving It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia on, it's got some rotten language and vulgar jokes in it, now is it the shows responsibility if my kids are negatively affected by it when it's not necessarily intended for them? It comes with an age recommendation and anyone younger than the recommended age being exposed to it is the responsibility of the guardian. If you're fine with exposing them to such content, then that's your decision, there are many parents who expose their children to content below the recommended age and they turn out just fine.
The rating is there, the content is age appropriate to the rating, if you're exposing this content to people younger than the recommended age, that's your call but it isn't on everybody else to moderate the age appropriate content so that it's appropriate for the people you're exposing it to.
I feel like there is a fundamental divide in mentality on this thread.
There's the I want the casts to remain how I want it so that I can enjoy it and if this restricts access to others (either by age or by perceptions of immaturity), then they have to deal with it because I want my crude humour in casts.
Vs
I want others to share these casts with my friends/ family but I know there are age or perception barriers to overcome, so I'd like to see a few changes so that others can join in.
I don't know. Is it so wrong to want to lower barriers of entry to enjoying esports?
Maybe it's a tangent, but I see a parallel to the older days of BW English casting where several outspoken TL members would absolutely rag on English casters, preferring Korean casters which no Westerner could understand. Because Korean casters were way more indepth then Klazart and the rest of the SC2GG casters and damn SC2GG for lowering the barrier to entry of enjoying esports. The culture of BW is to watch it in Korean and if you didn't like it, you needed to learn to like it. (The whole, the outsiders need to adapt to our own internal culture argument.)
Having just skimmed through this thread, I just want to apologize to the few people who actually tried to contribute to the original topic. This thread quickly went from the OP simply wanting some rating system for casters/program to America sucks, censorship and SC2 is rated T for teen. Shame on all of you! I'm surprised this isn't even locked yet, R1CH pretty much solved the issue anyway.
I will say, however, that you can't underestimate how a little professionalism can go a long way.
On May 27 2011 20:45 Drolla wrote: This thread has sadly gone way off topic. In happier news TL added streamers an option to set a maturity rating, possibly in response to this thread.
Hopefully this commnet won't get lost in the mists of troll land
Trying to prevent your kids swearing by completely preventing any exposure to it will work about as well as trying to stop them getting pregnant by abstinence-only sex education. The fact that the same people tend to be proponents of both methods is probably not a coincidence. Even if you somehow manage to raise an 18-year-old who has never heard the word "fuck", the moment he discovers it, he's going to go around saying it for the next month.
Swearing is a useful linguistic tool for emphasis, and all the casters I've seen typically use it purely for this purpose. Making it taboo not only deprives them of this tool, but likely makes your kids even more eager to swear when they inevitably do learn it.
On May 27 2011 20:45 Drolla wrote: This thread has sadly gone way off topic. In happier news TL added streamers an option to set a maturity rating, possibly in response to this thread.
Agreed. It went from a simple request for some cleaner casting to a huge parenting discussion which is sadly very heavily represented by people who are not parents and don't know how to raise children.
Putting that aside, it's really cool that R1CH added a way for people concerned about the content of the streams they view here on TL to get some insight before watching one of the streams while young ones are around. Bravo to the TL staff and hopefully the trolls will soon subside.
Trying to prevent your kids swearing by completely preventing any exposure to it will work about as well as trying to stop them getting pregnant by abstinence-only sex education. The fact that the same people tend to be proponents of both methods is probably not a coincidence. Even if you somehow manage to raise an 18-year-old who has never heard the word "fuck", the moment he discovers it, he's going to go around saying it for the next month.
Swearing is a useful linguistic tool for emphasis, and all the casters I've seen typically use it purely for this purpose. Making it taboo not only deprives them of this tool, but likely makes your kids even more eager to swear when they inevitably do learn it.
In regards to this post I would say that you're not really comparing apples to apples here. Sexual education is something that is taught to teenagers and is absolutely necessary for these teens to be informed to make good decisions.
The issue of swearing in casting, as I understand it, is focused more around the affect it has on much younger children who still repeat a large amount of what they hear. Obviously people get exposed to swearing at some point in their lives but most parents don't want their children to grow up thinking it's acceptable to speak like that all the time which is why certain things are best left for adults.
Swearing is not a linguistic tool by the way. It's a crutch for people who lack the vocabulary and intellect to accurately verbalize their thoughts. If you want to emphasize something then learn useful, non offensive words that accomplish what you're trying to say.
That all being said, I'm still not opposed to swearing in general and if casters want to swear that's fine with me. It would be helpful for some people who do enjoy watching SC2 with their children though to have some way to see what type of language they can expect from various streams that they may enjoy watching. So again I say thanks to R1CH for hearing the parents in the community and offering up a solution!
On May 27 2011 18:06 Bread779 wrote: Having just skimmed through this thread, I just want to apologize to the few people who actually tried to contribute to the original topic. This thread quickly went from the OP simply wanting some rating system for casters/program to America sucks, censorship and SC2 is rated T for teen. Shame on all of you! I'm surprised this isn't even locked yet, R1CH pretty much solved the issue anyway.
I will say, however, that you can't underestimate how a little professionalism can go a long way.
As I've said, the addition of the language option by R1CH should effectively solve the problem, but a lot of people started bringing up professionalism in casts and the desire to grow eSports yada yada, which took us of topic. Also, since you added to the off-topic discussion in your post, let me address it once more.
I mentioned the T for Teen because it should act as a general rating of what to expect in terms of age appropriation for those watching and playing the game. For all major events, leagues and tournaments it's pretty much PG-13, which is roughly the equivalent of a T rating, so I was simply saying, if you want a rating to consult, look at the back of the box, the content of all major events matches that content. Now, individual streams tend to have varying degrees of language but R1CH's language rating should solved any issues with that.
On May 27 2011 17:25 Falling wrote: I feel like there is a fundamental divide in mentality on this thread.
There's the I want the casts to remain how I want it so that I can enjoy it and if this restricts access to others (either by age or by perceptions of immaturity), then they have to deal with it because I want my crude humour in casts.
Vs
I want others to share these casts with my friends/ family but I know there are age or perception barriers to overcome, so I'd like to see a few changes so that others can join in.
I don't know. Is it so wrong to want to lower barriers of entry to enjoying esports?
Maybe it's a tangent, but I see a parallel to the older days of BW English casting where several outspoken TL members would absolutely rag on English casters, preferring Korean casters which no Westerner could understand. Because Korean casters were way more indepth then Klazart and the rest of the SC2GG casters and damn SC2GG for lowering the barrier to entry of enjoying esports. The culture of BW is to watch it in Korean and if you didn't like it, you needed to learn to like it. (The whole, the outsiders need to adapt to our own internal culture argument.)
Also, I don't think some profanity and slightly mature jokes are unprofessional at all, and I don't know if changing the format and content of casts would be worth it for expanding the scene, because we don't know how much it would actually expand it for the changes that would potentially be made. Additionally, I don't think swearing is a crutch, I think it's a tool that can be used effectively or excessively and can be particularly useful in comedy when used appropriately. If it were as simple as reducing the mature content of something to make it more popular, then every bloody film, television show etc. should very well aim for a G-rating. I don't know if weighing the possible changes to content in particular in regards to the target audience would be something I'd want just so that a younger audience, for which the game is not age-recommended could enjoy it.
Also, I don't really know anyone, from my friends to of-age family members who would really be put off by the mild profanity in all major events and tournaments. They're doing perfectly fine in my opinion.
On May 28 2011 00:52 Mordiford wrote: As I've said, the addition of the language option by R1CH should effectively solve the problem, but a lot of people started bringing up professionalism in casts and the desire to grow eSports yada yada, which took us of topic. Also, since you added to the off-topic discussion in your post, let me address it once more.
The option wont solve the problem, because there are too many kids who are unattended while watching Starcraft. It is a curse of our times that parents dont have enough time to do that anymore, so the responsibility of the casters remains. As R1CH mentioned it is the responsibility of the casters to set the rating correctly, but the fact also remains that not everyone who watches Starcraft goes to Teamliquid first and then looks for a Stream.
Oh and lets not forget the "X rated" = more attractive to kids due to the thrill of doing something illegal. It has made rappers famous and might do the same for certain casters who are willing to stoop to such low levels.
tl;dr: The problem remains, but Teamliquid has done all it could / should ...
Unfortunately nothing good can come of this thread, in my honest opinion. Cultural differences makes this almost impossible to discuss in any sensible way.
On May 27 2011 23:20 Achaia wrote: Agreed. It went from a simple request for some cleaner casting
I don't think there was ever even a request for a change in casting from the OP. Everyone apparently read it that way though.
Sorry, I guess he didn't directly request cleaner casting. He was actually asking for a rating system so he could determine what games would be appropriate to watch with his sons. The general effect though was that he prefers to watch cleaner casting, I guess that's not to say that he's putting the pressure on the casters to provide this though, merely that he wants some way to tell what the language used in the casting is before he watches it with his kids.
On May 28 2011 00:52 Mordiford wrote: As I've said, the addition of the language option by R1CH should effectively solve the problem, but a lot of people started bringing up professionalism in casts and the desire to grow eSports yada yada, which took us of topic. Also, since you added to the off-topic discussion in your post, let me address it once more.
The option wont solve the problem, because there are too many kids who are unattended while watching Starcraft. It is a curse of our times that parents dont have enough time to do that anymore, so the responsibility of the casters remains. As R1CH mentioned it is the responsibility of the casters to set the rating correctly, but the fact also remains that not everyone who watches Starcraft goes to Teamliquid first and then looks for a Stream.
Oh and lets not forget the "X rated" = more attractive to kids due to the thrill of doing something illegal. It has made rappers famous and might do the same for certain casters who are willing to stoop to such low levels.
tl;dr: The problem remains, but Teamliquid has done all it could / should ...
It solves the problem of the OP. What you keep bringing up is past anything that anyone can solve short of removing all content from everywhere that isn't G-rated, because kids will always be able to watch stuff that's age inappropriate, from movies, to television shows, to music...
It's the responsibility of the parents to restrict access to age-inappropriate content, it's ridiculous to expect this content to be eliminated in it's entirely. Ratings and notices are the most that can really be done in this age unless you want to censor and remove all content that may be inappropriate for children. It's the parents responsibility to police access to inappropriate content.
On May 26 2011 15:48 rightstuff wrote: Ignoring the fact that there may be kids watching casts, professional standards should be held to professional casted games. If our goal is to promote esports and SC2 into a mainstream entertainment field like TV in the west, or even to promote into general acceptability as a sport, we need to hold our professionals to standards we would expect from other types of sports casting. If you watch a professionally cast Basketball, Football, Football (the world sport kind ), etc. you don't expect the casters to be swearing on camera. In fact, as far as the US is concerned you'd be fined for it.
An interesting question that I'd pose is: Do you think standards should be different for casters in an Esport even instead of a normal sporting event? Also, does the fact that most casting is done online make a difference in what standards we hold?
The question is comparability, Starcraft 2 as a game has it's own individual rating and contains content that you will not see in Basketball, Football etc... I don't think they're directly comparable, and then there's the aspects of casual, gamer culture which I actually enjoy. I don't think any of the major casted events are unprofessional, but they aren't clean either. They're age appropriate to the rating Starcraft 2 itself receives, with content that is similar to the warning label on the back of the box, interesting enough. I think that's perfectly fine.
You make a valid point. SC2 is already rated and that should speak to content of broadcasts as well. However, I think I should have been more clear. There is a minimal standard of professionalism expected for public face jobs. Vulgarity should be discouraged in professional broadcasts. It's not the age of the community, or general maturity when it comes to swearing, that I'm questioning. It's the idea of professionalism at the workplace. It's not appropriate to use foul language in a public position because it is unseemly and impolite, not because people don't hear or use fuck, shit, damn, etc. in everyday life.
This sketch from "A bit of fry and laurie" pretty much sums my opinion into foul language:
Context is all that matters, Stephen has commented into this matter numerous times, and i doubt you find many people with as good skills in using english language and vocabulary.
First things first. Your kids are watching a war game where sentient beings (except zerg, maybe?) are slaughtering each other mercilessly and you are worried about a sexual joke? A bad word? Give me a break, the silliness of this discussion in the first place is just...crazy amounts of silly. Just plain silly to even discuss this. However, since the world is filled with such silly discussions, we should make sure they are resolved.
We don't have the numbers on this but I would gander on a whim that the number of people watching starcraft with their 8 year old kid is in the minority. I feel it's mostly 16-30 year old males. Those people are adults and can make their own decisions, thus they require no censorship. I feel that censorship or any rating system on this basis alone is irrelevant. However, since the issue is being raised, I feel it's important to find solutions given the need.
If in fact this proves to be a relevant issue in the future, I think the problem lies in the unpredictability of the expletive language and not the language itself. If you could know the language being used beforehand your problem would be solved, or at least partially. You would no longer have to worry about said expletive language being used abruptly, but rather having to watch certain programs on mute with your children, making for a less enjoyable viewing experience. I think the solution is simple then just as the OP has suggested. Just have a rating system and have the casters informed as to what language they can and cannot use for the given rating.
Personally I think the issue is moot given the overall viewer base of starcraft content atm, and that individual exceptions to this rule should create their own solutions, like understanding that their kids are going to use bad language anyways and the whole issue is backwards to begin with.
edit: I say this having heard and read almost no arguments so it seems that many people are saying the same things.
Swearing is not a linguistic tool by the way. It's a crutch for people who lack the vocabulary and intellect to accurately verbalize their thoughts. If you want to emphasize something then learn useful, non offensive words that accomplish what you're trying to say.
I suggest you watch this and the second part from a psychology professor to explain the role of swearing as a linguistic tool:
Add a rating to the casters but please don't make all go all american. I wanna listen to mature casters to. Not all husky... it gets pretty boring. I like psystarcraft for not being PC all the time.
The thing is, the streams indicate if mature language is used, and if that's the case and the person in question does not want his or her children or whatever to hear bad language etc then just don't watch that stream....
This is rather interesting and rage inducing. You say that you want to protect your 12 year old and 8 year old from violent or offensive language; but correct me if I'm wrong. Starcraft II is in fact, a 16 rated game. So surely you should expect the language if you allow your children to watch a 16 rated game which is solely focused on violence and trying to kill your opponent.
Mature language is what should be the least of your worries imo.
On June 03 2011 05:54 CombineWithMe wrote: This is rather interesting and rage inducing. You say that you want to protect your 12 year old and 8 year old from violent or offensive language; but correct me if I'm wrong. Starcraft II is in fact, a 16 rated game. So surely you should expect the language if you allow your children to watch a 16 rated game which is solely focused on violence and trying to kill your opponent.
Mature language is what should be the least of your worries imo.
this. but i guess being a good parent is harder than trust companys to raise your kid.
I looked at my Starcraft 2: Wings of Liberty quick guide and saw the reasons why it's PEGI 16. The indicators for content includes: "Violence" and "Online gameplay".
The reason for a PEGI 16 years old labelling is:
"This rating is applied once the depiction of violence (or sexual activity) reaches a stage that looks the same as would be expected in real life. More extreme bad language, the concept of the use of tobacco and drugs and the depiction of criminal activities can be content of games that are rated 16."
Okay, streamers and casters should therefore warn viewers for violence, in line with PEGI labelling and if their vocabulary stems from a criminal steel worker, bad language. They could use the existing icons from the PEGI labelling to inform viewers.
On the subject of the, well subject. Swearing while as far as I'm concerned, irrelevant, doesn't add anything to a broadcast and usuall indicates a lack of diverse vocabulary on the part of the person using it. It doesn't have any place in broadcast sports, e or otherwise.
I think this bears repeating. People desperately trying to turn this into a "LOL AMERICANS SO STUPID AND SHELTERED" issue when it reality casting does not benefit at all from vulgarity. Use of swearing isn't often for 'emphasis' or 'passion' as people want to say, but really just shows a lack of intelligence and vocabulary.
On the subject of the, well subject. Swearing while as far as I'm concerned, irrelevant, doesn't add anything to a broadcast and usuall indicates a lack of diverse vocabulary on the part of the person using it. It doesn't have any place in broadcast sports, e or otherwise.
I think this bears repeating. People desperately trying to turn this into a "LOL AMERICANS SO STUPID AND SHELTERED" issue when it reality casting does not benefit at all from vulgarity. Use of swearing isn't often for 'emphasis' or 'passion' as people want to say, but really just shows a lack of intelligence and vocabulary.
casting does not benefit at all from obscure jokes between casters, but they happen.
Saying it doesn't benefit is a complete nonsequitur, it's a right of the people talking and by extension a right for all of us to hold on to.
In casting people really don't swear very much as it is and, like has been said before, this game is for 16+ so if you introduce an 8-12 year old, that's your fault, not the game's. Also, if you can't handle words, you need to grow up, too.
In casting people really don't swear very much as it is and, like has been said before, this game is for 16+ so if you introduce an 8-12 year old, that's your fault, not the game's. Also, if you can't handle words, you need to grow up, too.
Why does the rating of the game matter? The content of the cast can be completely unrelated to the game rating itself. It can be vulgar, R rated or completely G rated. Not all of us are in a secluded shielded man den and have children, family other people around and perhaps just perhaps we don't want to hear it anyway.
The audio is heard by more people then are watching, so the language of the cast does matter.
i think any kind, polite level-headed father should question why some language is considered bad and some good in the first place and why there should even be effort to shield anyone from anything in the first place.
my guess is that if one of your boys said a "bad word" he would be shunned in his community.
On June 03 2011 06:19 Eknoid4 wrote: So you don't let your kids listen to the radio or watch TV? because the language there is just as bad!
Ya except for the ridiculous censorship which is still around today. Censor media, kid walks out of the house and hears someone drop the f-bomb...so much for that .
In casting people really don't swear very much as it is and, like has been said before, this game is for 16+ so if you introduce an 8-12 year old, that's your fault, not the game's. Also, if you can't handle words, you need to grow up, too.
Why does the rating of the game matter? The content of the cast can be completely unrelated to the game rating itself. It can be vulgar, R rated or completely G rated. Not all of us are in a secluded shielded man den and have children, family other people around and perhaps just perhaps we don't want to hear it anyway.
The audio is heard by more people then are watching, so the language of the cast does matter.
because the cast is for the game. You wouldn't expect a commentary of a rated NC-17 movie to be PG would you?
Most people aren't secluded shielded man den. I'm certainly not. I did invest in a pair of headphones about 10 years ago and have been replacing them ever since. This wasn't even for bad reasons. My family had a computer room and we all played games together. There was too much sound for speakers.
Headphones is a good idea and if your only reason is the sound bleeding it, I'd say you invest in some. 20-30 dollars for a decent pair is only a couple GSLs worth of money. Then again, you could just get a secluded shielded man den.
Perhaps just perhaps you don't need to be so uptight about words other people are saying.
On June 03 2011 06:19 Eknoid4 wrote: So you don't let your kids listen to the radio or watch TV? because the language there is just as bad!
Ya except for the ridiculous censorship which is still around today. Censor media, kid walks out of the house and hears someone drop the f-bomb...so much for that .
No, they can say most swear words on the radio now.
On June 03 2011 06:19 Eknoid4 wrote: So you don't let your kids listen to the radio or watch TV? because the language there is just as bad!
Ya except for the ridiculous censorship which is still around today. Censor media, kid walks out of the house and hears someone drop the f-bomb...so much for that .
No, they can say most swear words on the radio now.
I suppose, but there is still a level of censorhip for some words, as well as what the discussion pretains to. Satellite radio on the other hand has abosolutely none but the DJs do use discretion obviously .
On the subject of the, well subject. Swearing while as far as I'm concerned, irrelevant, doesn't add anything to a broadcast and usuall indicates a lack of diverse vocabulary on the part of the person using it. It doesn't have any place in broadcast sports, e or otherwise.
I think this bears repeating. People desperately trying to turn this into a "LOL AMERICANS SO STUPID AND SHELTERED" issue when it reality casting does not benefit at all from vulgarity. Use of swearing isn't often for 'emphasis' or 'passion' as people want to say, but really just shows a lack of intelligence and vocabulary.
Swear words are some of the most linguistically rich words in the entire English language. The stigma attached to them is stupid.
As lexical items, they're almost unmatched in utility. Swear words are fucking awesome.
It looks like TL is already looking into this a bit themselves by adding the whole "stream maturity" thing but it's still an issue that needs to be faced, especially as there are barley no streams that have set their maturity level to a low level.
The point isn't to ensure that there are low maturity level streams, it's just to give the viewer a warning of what to expect instead of going into a stream completely blind.
Just going to throw this out there for curiosity sake as everyone seems to make a big deal out of nationality. Are swear words not considered as serious when English is learned as a second language? I'm talking as a general rule of thumb- I know I'm going to get a bunch of replies either saying they are another nationality other than is shown. I know I'm also going to get a bunch of 'English is my first language and I've been keeping it real with f-bombs since the 90's'. But for ESL's, is curses in another language ever that big of a deal or just amusing?
I know for myself, if I learn the 'bad' words in another language, they don't seem like such a big deal. There's little cultural context and the only reason why I know they're bad is someone has told me. In addition, curse words are generally the first words one learns in another language.
Does anyone here believe there are no kids younger than 16 playing the game and watching casts? Is miniWheat 16 already?
Pointing at the game rating and saying that it isnt for kids is just using the letter of the law to defeat the spirit of the law. Swearing, cursing, aggressing terms and phrases like STFU, demeaning terms all dont make a cast better ... they only point out the limited abilities of the caster and his "Peter Pan desire" to be a 13 year old kid which thinks it can fly. Using words like fuck and nigger and whatever else might let you sound like a 13 year old cool kid on the block, but the older you really are the less intelligent you seem as well.
"Immature - a word boring people use to describe fun people"
Censorship is the worst, do what you want yo. Conversely if you wanna ~better yourself~ and remove certain words to make yourself feel like ~the bigger person~ go for it.
Stop worrying about what other people do / try to get you to do, and decide for yourself which way you want to go.
While major tournaments(TSL, NASL, GSL, MLG, etc) should keep the level of swearing and inappropriateness to a minimum (or none at all), the profanity level of individual casting streams/VODs of casters/commentators should be up to the caster himself. Since it's an individual's choice to watch the stream/VOD of the caster, if the profanity is offensive, one can simply choose not to watch it. In addition, I believe that for a sport that is relatively young and still not as widely accepted as traditional sports such as soccer, the casters have to infuse some sort of personality into their casts to attract a more mainstream audience, especially when the game in question (starcraft2) is by nature a difficult game to comprehend from the beginner's standpoint.
That being said, I think that the level of professionalism in major tournaments must be held up to a high standard. Commentators in sports such as basketball and football and soccer retain a rather high level of professionalism while retaining their level of enthusiasm for the sport--in fact, sometimes they become shining examples of good rhetoric in whichever language the commentator the is speaking in.
But to the OP, I think that it is a balance of one's one parenting values and the values of casters. In addition, one must take into account that the game's intended audience are those who are 13 and over(at least in the United States) and therefore one can reasonably expect that the community of players will be most likely those who have heard swear words in their lifetime and is either not bothered by it or can handled it maturely. But I like how you are introducing Starcraft to the younger generation of new players!
On June 03 2011 14:50 Falling wrote: Just going to throw this out there for curiosity sake as everyone seems to make a big deal out of nationality. Are swear words not considered as serious when English is learned as a second language? I'm talking as a general rule of thumb- I know I'm going to get a bunch of replies either saying they are another nationality other than is shown. I know I'm also going to get a bunch of 'English is my first language and I've been keeping it real with f-bombs since the 90's'. But for ESL's, is curses in another language ever that big of a deal or just amusing?
I know for myself, if I learn the 'bad' words in another language, they don't seem like such a big deal. There's little cultural context and the only reason why I know they're bad is someone has told me. In addition, curse words are generally the first words one learns in another language.
In Sweden, there really aren't any ''special'' words you can say that will cause any sort of ''you shouldn't say that''-reaction.
Also, as far as I know, there is no swedish FCC and you can hear swear words on TV at any time, on any channel during any show (obviously certain types of programmes like cartoons for small children don't use any swear words, but I don't think there are any rules against it).
This is why I think many swedes (myself included) really can't relate to this whole professionalism = no swearing thing, swearing on TV (for example, during a sports cast) isn't regarded as unprofessional. Now, if someone on TV were swearing every other word, then people might think it's dumb, but as long as there's context swedes aren't going to react more negatively to swear words than to any other words.
On June 03 2011 14:50 Falling wrote: Just going to throw this out there for curiosity sake as everyone seems to make a big deal out of nationality. Are swear words not considered as serious when English is learned as a second language? I'm talking as a general rule of thumb- I know I'm going to get a bunch of replies either saying they are another nationality other than is shown. I know I'm also going to get a bunch of 'English is my first language and I've been keeping it real with f-bombs since the 90's'. But for ESL's, is curses in another language ever that big of a deal or just amusing?
I know for myself, if I learn the 'bad' words in another language, they don't seem like such a big deal. There's little cultural context and the only reason why I know they're bad is someone has told me. In addition, curse words are generally the first words one learns in another language.
In Sweden, there really aren't any ''special'' words you can say that will cause any sort of ''you shouldn't say that''-reaction.
Also, as far as I know, there is no swedish FCC and you can hear swear words on TV at any time, on any channel during any show (obviously certain types of programmes like cartoons for small children don't use any swear words, but I don't think there are any rules against it).
This is why I think many swedes (myself included) really can't relate to this whole professionalism = no swearing thing, swearing on TV (for example, during a sports cast) isn't regarded as unprofessional. Now, if someone on TV were swearing every other word, then people might think it's dumb, but as long as there's context swedes aren't going to react more negatively to swear words than to any other words.
Totally agree with this. It's a typical American "problem" so to speak. Europeans are much less vulnerable for offending words since it isnt censored on our television nor radio etc...
I guess if the Americans feel like it should be censored do it, for the European streams stick with what you do right now don't become an American
On June 03 2011 16:10 nohbrows wrote: While major tournaments(TSL, NASL, GSL, MLG, etc) should keep the level of swearing and inappropriateness to a minimum (or none at all), the profanity level of individual casting streams/VODs of casters/commentators should be up to the caster himself. Since it's an individual's choice to watch the stream/VOD of the caster, if the profanity is offensive, one can simply choose not to watch it. In addition, I believe that for a sport that is relatively young and still not as widely accepted as traditional sports such as soccer, the casters have to infuse some sort of personality into their casts to attract a more mainstream audience, especially when the game in question (starcraft2) is by nature a difficult game to comprehend from the beginner's standpoint.
That being said, I think that the level of professionalism in major tournaments must be held up to a high standard. Commentators in sports such as basketball and football and soccer retain a rather high level of professionalism while retaining their level of enthusiasm for the sport--in fact, sometimes they become shining examples of good rhetoric in whichever language the commentator the is speaking in.
But to the OP, I think that it is a balance of one's one parenting values and the values of casters. In addition, one must take into account that the game's intended audience are those who are 13 and over(at least in the United States) and therefore one can reasonably expect that the community of players will be most likely those who have heard swear words in their lifetime and is either not bothered by it or can handled it maturely. But I like how you are introducing Starcraft to the younger generation of new players!
I agree, major tournaments need to be able to open to as wide an audience as possible by keeping the level of swearing and inappropriateness as low as possible. As I am from the US I can only speak for my own culture and that there is an effort to shield the ears of younger kids and it is frowned upon when no effort is done to. That is the fact of US culture. No amount of criticism, relevant or otherwise, will change this fact. Thus for the sake of eSports in the US, there should be attempts to tone it down (where regionally relevant) as it is all in good business.
Additionally, in the US and because of the cultural tendency I mentioned before, anything that a parent feels is inappropriate for their kids are also prevented from watching it freely themselves. Such parents will be "forced" (as in they will have to choose to either modify their watching habits or parenting style) to watch these shows out of view of their kids.
So in answering the OP, language standards would only help bring in new viewers. In the US vulgar language is an excluding element (the # of people able to watch a movie decreases as its rating goes from G to PG to PG13 to NC17 to R). I can't recall anyone I know specifically watching a caster because he was particularly vulgar. Unless someone can argue successfully that vulgarity brings more people than having language standards would, then from a business standpoint then language standards are useful.
The idea of mainstream is to make something appealing to as many people as possible.
On May 25 2011 01:04 warsinger wrote: I just composed this as an email to State of the Game. Hope they address it, but I'd like to hear what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue.
I am a father of 2 boys (12 and 8) and we love watching Starcraft casts and tournaments. We watch most of NASL, TSL, IPL and occasionally GSL as well as lots of independent casts and streams. My oldest son and I have attended both MLG Dallas 2010 & 2011.
My question is about maturity level of the casting. Using MPAA ratings for comparison some casters I can count on to use PG language and jokes and some go all the way up to R level (or beyond). I try to learn the various styles and "ratings" for each caster and tournament and filter appropriately. If I know a caster is likely to drop F-bombs I will listen solo or maybe watch it on mute with the kids. Then there are casts that are mostly clean but occasionally use some harsher language or sexually oriented jokes (looking at you Gretorp). Another situation is during post game interviews with the players. 5 seconds into the TSL3 championship post game interview, the F-bomb emerges after a pretty clean cast. I reached for the mute button very quickly. Glad my wife didn't hear it.
I'm not trying to complain or say there should be any censorship, but I would like to hear your discussion on some sort of mechanism for determining what the age appropriateness of specific tournament casts will be. Would it be possible to have some sort of rating system so that when tuning in to watch a tournament I can know that the casters will or will not be using certain types of language?
Another idea is a PG edited version where someone has taken the time to bleep out parts of the cast (like the TV version of an R movie). I'd love to have this for something like the Day9 Daily but I know such things take time and money. Can you imagine an edited version of SOTG?
As esports continues to grow I think this may be a barrier to entry for some like myself who are trying to protect the minds and ears of our little children at least for a few more years. I realize my standards are quite different from many but there are established standards for the major TV networks. Would a model like this help or hurt esports development?
Love to hear your thoughts.
Warsinger Bronze Division Braxis Zeta
So, you let your toddlers watch content involving killing and destruction, but you are worried that an occasional "fuck" from a caster is going to corrupt the minds of your kids?
And whats wrong with "sexually oriented jokes"? I was 7 when I watched my first porno - admittedly not understanding much at the time - tried my first beer not long after that, and still, I never got arrested or got into any other sort of trouble. Do I need to mention, that I hold an academic degree and that I'm a productive member of society?
Honestly, you US Americans have a screwed up relationship with sexuality and violence. Boobs being shown on TV create an outrage and a scandal (J. Jackson + Timberlake), but at the same time every underage fuck can buy a gun in a supermarket and kill his neighbours...
This is really just a no issue debate. If you dont like the language used in a stream or for a tourney cast etc, just dont watch it.
If you have children who are not old enough to watch something that might contian the F-word, then its your job as a parent to make sure whatever they watch is safe.
You can never demand that a stream or tourney cast remove sertain words just because you dont like it. Its up to them to decide what they will say or not say. If enough people dont watch then that of course will probably force a change but in the end we just have to accept that people are allowed to use whatever words they want.
In my opinion you can't complain about anything when it comes to what the caster/streamer says when you are letting your kids watch a video game that isnt "Supposed" to their age grp and to let kids watch starcraft 2 and think that its okey? its people killing each other all the time, aliens, ZERG? and also the smallparts like stimpacks? and even what they say ingame....
thats just my opinion...
Edit: I also think americans are pretty stupid with how you have these things, its like destiny said about SAW movies and pornos rly.. and also what incontrol said "The people in Europe is just looking at us and says:What the f**k is wrong with them"....
Honestly, you US Americans have a screwed up relationship with sexuality and violence. Boobs being shown on TV create an outrage and a scandal (J. Jackson + Timberlake), but at the same time every underage fuck can buy a gun in a supermarket and kill his neighbours...
This is the same thing as me saying everyone in Canada is from Quebec or everyone in England is a chav.
On one level, there is just some arbitrary social stigma attached to some word for one reason or another. Usually there is some kind of associated shock factor involved where some colloquialism is used to reference some taboo subject in anything other than a purely professional/observational setting. Think about it. Every vulgar word/phrase you use has some other "normal" word/phrase that can replace it... it simply doesn't sound as "cool" or "shocking". At this level, setting standards of communication is simply about being sensitive to other people's sensibilities, justified or otherwise. Also bear in mind that there are plenty of word/phrases that aren't specifically considered vulgar, but are still considered offensive to some (for instance "rape" or "slave") and would fall into this same category of standards.
On another level, there is pride of the wordsmith. Resorting to vulgarities to get your point across is commonly regarded as intellectual and/or creative bankruptcy. At this level, setting standards is more about enforcing a certain level of quality in communications. Eloquence wins the game, so to speak. Taken to an extreme, we'd have a bunch of Steve Miller wannabes parading the airwaves, but I hope you get the picture. It isn't so much about being pretentious as being professional.
In terms of the community having standards, I think every caster should strive for excellence in communications and sensitivity to others regardless if they're major names doing big events or just a personal casters doing stuff for kicks n' giggles. The more popular the caster, the more important striving for those standards is, but it is still important for the most obscure casters too. So long as you are a part of the community, you're also a spokesperson of that community whether you want to be or not. Alienating part of the community, even if it is a part that you don't personally care to associate with, still damages the community as a whole.
Anyone arguing that censoring one's self in the name of keeping standards is tantamount to "selling out", as Destiny put it on SotG, is being short-sighted and selfish. I know that counter-culture principles are the hip/cool thing to follow, but they are also, by definition, what erodes communities. Shouldn't we, as a community, instead be looking to foster growth and cooperation?
Resorting to vulgarities to get your point across is commonly regarded as intellectual and/or creative bankruptcy. At this level, setting standards is more about enforcing a certain level of quality in communications. Eloquence wins the game, so to speak. Taken to an extreme, we'd have a bunch of Steve Miller wannabes parading the airwaves, but I hope you get the picture. It isn't so much about being pretentious as being professional.
In terms of the community having standards, I think every caster should strive for excellence in communications and sensitivity to others regardless if they're major names doing big events or just a personal casters doing stuff for kicks n' giggles. The more popular the caster, the more important striving for those standards is, but it is still important for the most obscure casters too. So long as you are a part of the community, you're also a spokesperson of that community whether you want to be or not. Alienating part of the community, even if it is a part that you don't personally care to associate with, still damages the community as a whole.
Anyone arguing that censoring one's self in the name of keeping standards is tantamount to "selling out", as Destiny put it on SotG, is being short-sighted and selfish. I know that counter-culture principles are the hip/cool thing to follow, but they are also, by definition, what erodes communities. Shouldn't we, as a community, instead be looking to foster growth and cooperation?
I don't see anything creative or intellectual about confining yourself to a set list of words and I don't see how vulgarity is considered uncreative. When people have to censor themselves then it's not them anymore, it's some watered down product and it's saddening to see that. I enjoy seeing people raw and unrefined. Sure some people can just be jackasses, but there's nothing wrong with vulgarity, after all they're just a word. People like Day9 and Destiny use vulgarity, albeit true one moreso than the other and they're both still awesome people as far as I'm concerned. I have no problem with people who don't use them by default or whatever, but I don't think refining people is a good thing.
As for calling "counter-culture" the hip and cool thing to do, it's just some label people put on stuff they consider not good for little Jimmy, which is of course totally subjective. We can foster a community without just surrendering to what has deemed itself "culture" in whatever specific country, other places around the world do have different cultures regarding stuff like this and they've turned out fine.
Long story short the Birth of Venus wouldn't be the same if she was wearing a one-piece swim suit and they made sure you couldn't see her tooshie.
I think toning down vulgarity in casting is a fair requirement. In streaming, no.
Location matters immensely. The ability to swear is a controllable element of communication. You can bloat the significance of cursing as an integral part of your personality, but it has proven itself to be more difficult to not swear in various situations. Therefore, it seems reasonable that casters do the harder thing as a matter of professionalism in a real-job situation. Cursing in streams implies that it is okay in that situation, when it actually isn't. It would be a disservice to the impressionable community to make it seem like sportscasting allows vulgarity.
Streaming is a product of personality, however. If anything, it feeds off of the rigidity evidenced in the general workplace by presenting something more raw and real. If you like people being as true to their nuances as possible, streaming seems like a great place to expect it. It is okay here because the target audience not only accepts the use of vulgarity as a means of self expression, but enjoys it.
Resorting to vulgarities to get your point across is commonly regarded as intellectual and/or creative bankruptcy. At this level, setting standards is more about enforcing a certain level of quality in communications. Eloquence wins the game, so to speak. Taken to an extreme, we'd have a bunch of Steve Miller wannabes parading the airwaves, but I hope you get the picture. It isn't so much about being pretentious as being professional.
In terms of the community having standards, I think every caster should strive for excellence in communications and sensitivity to others regardless if they're major names doing big events or just a personal casters doing stuff for kicks n' giggles. The more popular the caster, the more important striving for those standards is, but it is still important for the most obscure casters too. So long as you are a part of the community, you're also a spokesperson of that community whether you want to be or not. Alienating part of the community, even if it is a part that you don't personally care to associate with, still damages the community as a whole.
Anyone arguing that censoring one's self in the name of keeping standards is tantamount to "selling out", as Destiny put it on SotG, is being short-sighted and selfish. I know that counter-culture principles are the hip/cool thing to follow, but they are also, by definition, what erodes communities. Shouldn't we, as a community, instead be looking to foster growth and cooperation?
I don't see anything creative or intellectual about confining yourself to a set list of words and I don't see how vulgarity is considered uncreative. When people have to censor themselves then it's not them anymore, it's some watered down product and it's saddening to see that. I enjoy seeing people raw and unrefined. Sure some people can just be jackasses, but there's nothing wrong with vulgarity, after all they're just a words. People like Day9 and Destiny use vulgarity, albeit true one moreso than the other and they're both still awesome people as far as I'm concerned. I have no problem with people who don't use them by default or whatever, but I don't think refining people is a good thing.
As for calling "counter-culture" the hip and cool thing to do, it's just some label people put on stuff they consider not good for little Jimmy, which is of course totally subjective. We can foster a community without just surrendering to what has deemed itself "culture" in whatever specific country, other places around the world do have different cultures regarding stuff like this and they've turned out fine.
Long story short the Birth of Venus wouldn't be the same if she was wearing a one-piece swim suit and they made sure you couldn't see her tooshie.
Fuck.
Are you going to avoid a stream because a lack of vulgarity? You may not mind the vulgarity, or perhaps you even enjoy it in all it's raw expository glory, but are you going to actively avoid streams where they've censored themselves? The reverse is true for many people, whereby the lack of censorship (warranted or not) limits your potential audience, and thereby potentially affects the whole of the game / e-sports community.
Keep in mind that the underpinnings of this argument are in terms of "growing the e-sports community" and establishing some degree of mainstream legitimacy to the extent that such a thing is possible. If that isn't a goal you want to buy into, then by all means be as individualistic, vulgar, shocking, sensationalist, etc. that you want to be. Kudos. However, recognize that anyone that does buy into that goal will have a vested interest in downplaying or marginalizing you despite any other contributions you may provide to the community.
Mind you, I'm not actually suggesting what standards we should actually adhere to. I do think part of that depends on the nature of both the game and venue at hand. Whichever exhibits the higher standard is the one that should probably be adhered to. It still doesn't diminish the value of holding yourself to a higher standard than what is required of you, and that it is best for the community as a whole for every individual caster to strive for those higher standards no matter the circumstance.
On June 03 2011 16:31 Cuiu wrote: i dont rly get the conversation here It's only words Öo the people that are offended by words are prude just words nothing else just words
Being prudish has nothing to do with being offended by words like nigger. The point is not to use offensive words because they are aggressive. Using these words shows a lack of respect for others and that is a bad thing for any society. Some "low level parts of society" may use these aggressive words like candy and not get annoyed by them anymore (kinda like "hey asshole, what's up?"), but assuming that everyone "has to" think of them as "normal words" as they do is just total arrogance.
The perfect solution has come from Day[9] IMO. If you want to be the "cool swearing caster [idiot]" you should adapt his "cursing by proxy" and make up new words. This has been suggested before by Oxhorn for WoW and it seems like a good idea. The only problem is that not everyone is as good as Day[9].
Just watched the Stanley Cup final on NBC... The following phrases were uttered by Bruins players hoisting the Cup on national television:
"I fucking love you man." "Fucking yeah!" "Fucking rights!" "Fuck yeah!"
If this is a mainstream sport (many Americans might disagree) and is considered professional how can we claim cursing makes us seem less mainstream? Compare this to a recent NASL interview (with Ret I think???) that was ruined because it was just a series of BEEPS.
And whats wrong with "sexually oriented jokes"? I was 7 when I watched my first porno - admittedly not understanding much at the time - tried my first beer not long after that, and still, I never got arrested or got into any other sort of trouble. Do I need to mention, that I hold an academic degree and that I'm a productive member of society?
This isn't normal or desirable for children. Not saying you're some maladjusted person but I wouldn't want my children watching porn at age 7 and drinking "not long after"; yet, I'd hardly call myself a prude. What you described is an extreme situation. I think it's also a little presumptuous to tell that man how he should raise his kids.
On June 11 2011 04:18 PlayerSFoxeR wrote: Long story short the Birth of Venus wouldn't be the same if she was wearing a one-piece swim suit and they made sure you couldn't see her tooshie.
Your example is hilarious. Do you think its beauty and enduring popularity are because of the nudity? Really? The human form in that context is about as far from vulgarity as possible; Botticelli saw the human form as the peak of beauty, balance and proportion.
Crudely comparing its nudity to cursing casters is patently absurd.
Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again: those who can use cursing and vulgar language for beautiful, creative and articulate purposes (George Carlin, the Coen Brothers, Vonnegut) are few and far between. I'm not a prude in the least bit; I just think there are far better ways to express yourself than "derp fuck yeah, that was fuckin' sick brah derppp!"
Well, I think that the reason swear words have been demonized is to promote proper child development, and to ensure that coarse language does not replace the growing vocabulary of a child, or hinder their capacity for constructive self-expression. I presume that the age of eighteen has been determined by researchers much smarter than myself as an appropriate cut-off point for mental development--perhaps because the mind becomes less impressionable and malleable--such that swear words can be incorporated into daily language without deleterious effect.
It's a bit harder for me to ascertain why sex and sexuality elicit such severe outcry on behalf of parents, as well as the moral opprobrium associated with child sexuality in general. I guess it's somewhat like imagining one's parents doing the dirty deed, something we'd rather not think about...but I'd love if someone could explain to me why an exposed breast garners an instant adult rating, whereas mass murder and flayed limbs can still reliably be pg-13. @_@
I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
On June 16 2011 15:47 karpo wrote: I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
On June 16 2011 15:47 karpo wrote: I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
Interesting that a swede would say that about swears, from what I have heard Europeans simply don't give a fuck about swears. "I'm swedish, deal wit it."
On June 16 2011 15:47 karpo wrote: I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
yeah. or just find more mature ways of explaining yourself.
On June 16 2011 15:47 karpo wrote: I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
Fucking Americans.
All the same.
I'm not saying all americans but it seems to be a cultural thing amongst american teens and young adults.
On June 16 2011 15:47 karpo wrote: I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
Interesting that a swede would say that about swears, from what I have heard Europeans simply don't give a fuck about swears. "I'm swedish, deal wit it."
I have no problem with swears and foul language. I don't really enjoy language where swears are just put into every sentence with no purpose.
Just look at brittish comedians or panel shows, they use "offensive language" but only in certain situations for added effect.
On June 16 2011 15:47 karpo wrote: I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
Interesting that a swede would say that about swears, from what I have heard Europeans simply don't give a fuck about swears. "I'm swedish, deal wit it."
I have no problem with swears and foul language. I don't really enjoy language where swears are just put into every sentence with no purpose.
Just look at brittish comedians or panel shows, they use "offensive language" but only in certain situations for added effect.
I'm sorry, what is this thread of discussion than, the point of use words like fuck or any expletives, it can be useful for emphasis, while I feel it's not entirely appropriate in most casts, I don't think it's a big deal if there's one or two. As long as the profanity isn't diminishing the quality of the cast and if it is, it's not because of the nature of profanity itself but likely the excessive use of it. Most of the swearing in casts isn't even memorable unless you're actively looking to hear it.
I feel like if casters had to pre-rate their thing, all casters would just end up sort of, in some way or another, pre-emptively giving it a more mature rating than maybe would have been necessary, because these sorts of things just slip out,and they know they will. People talk this way every day--when you're casting, you may very well just end up speaking like you normally do. Swearing is common as fuck. It's going to be almost impossible to avoid.
I know you want to think of them as professional casters in a professional environment, but let's be honest. They're bros. We're all bros. Swearing is going to happen.
Keep in mind that the underpinnings of this argument are in terms of "growing the e-sports community" and establishing some degree of mainstream legitimacy to the extent that such a thing is possible. If that isn't a goal you want to buy into, then by all means be as individualistic, vulgar, shocking, sensationalist, etc. that you want to be. Kudos. However, recognize that anyone that does buy into that goal will have a vested interest in downplaying or marginalizing you despite any other contributions you may provide to the community.
I'm not typically an "I told you so" kind of person, but love or hate Destiny, and regardless of your personal views on vulgarity, this is just how the game is played... at least in the US where corporations / large organizations / and big time investors typically consider public vulgarity to be un-professional.
Regarding 'bad' language I think the majority of casters are really good about it. In fact I can't even remember the last time I heard a popular caster drop an F-bomb or anything like that.
I'm not a GSL watcher so I only have a limited idea of what Artosis and Tasteless are capable of, but their MLG coverage was absolutely outstanding. They were both extremely funny without vulgarity or immaturity as well as providing excellent coverage of the games. Day9 and DjWheat, though lacking some of the humour that Artosis and Tasteless provided, easily delivered on content without the need for vulgarity or immaturity.
Personally I welcome humour into casting, (as an option not an obligation) but I don't see why it needs to consist of innuendos and/or bad language. Furthermore, it seems unnecessary to have to use bad language to convey any substantial point in casting.
Keep in mind that the underpinnings of this argument are in terms of "growing the e-sports community" and establishing some degree of mainstream legitimacy to the extent that such a thing is possible. If that isn't a goal you want to buy into, then by all means be as individualistic, vulgar, shocking, sensationalist, etc. that you want to be. Kudos. However, recognize that anyone that does buy into that goal will have a vested interest in downplaying or marginalizing you despite any other contributions you may provide to the community.
I'm not typically an "I told you so" kind of person, but love or hate Destiny, and regardless of your personal views on vulgarity, this is just how the game is played... at least in the US where corporations / large organizations / and big time investors typically consider public vulgarity to be un-professional.
His release had nothing to do with language... Don't spread false shit. Read the TL thread before you post crap like this.
On June 16 2011 15:47 karpo wrote: I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
I've been to other countries and there's always a curse word that is overly used in my experience. In Greece, it's malaka, in England it's bloody (but that's now a "cutesy" phrase IMO). Perhaps Americans have taken to the f-word too naturally but I'm not as phased by its use as I am by other derogatory words.
On June 23 2011 23:40 Pragmalice wrote: Quoting myself from a few pages back:
...
Keep in mind that the underpinnings of this argument are in terms of "growing the e-sports community" and establishing some degree of mainstream legitimacy to the extent that such a thing is possible. If that isn't a goal you want to buy into, then by all means be as individualistic, vulgar, shocking, sensationalist, etc. that you want to be. Kudos. However, recognize that anyone that does buy into that goal will have a vested interest in downplaying or marginalizing you despite any other contributions you may provide to the community.
I'm not typically an "I told you so" kind of person, but love or hate Destiny, and regardless of your personal views on vulgarity, this is just how the game is played... at least in the US where corporations / large organizations / and big time investors typically consider public vulgarity to be un-professional.
His release had nothing to do with language... Don't spread false shit. Read the TL thread before you post crap like this.
If you read the thread then you would know that what you just posted is false. Later in the thread they mention that they wanted him to tone down the racist and homophobic comments.
On June 16 2011 15:47 karpo wrote: I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
Well.... In my experience my euro friends would swear as much as anyone, just not in English usually. But still is is kind of ridiculous to single out Americans as the sole users of so called "Foul language".
On June 16 2011 15:47 karpo wrote: I just feel that americans use "like" and "fucking" with no real purpose. "Fucking this", "Fucking that", "My fucking bla bal". You could easily remove those words and every sentence would be just as understandable and sound alot more pleasing. (at least to me).
Fucking Americans.
All the same.
I'm not saying all americans but it seems to be a cultural thing amongst american teens and young adults.
no ur stereotyping buddy and looking quite ignorant. besides, are you saying that in other countries the youth never speak a foul word?
My problem with the use of inappropriate language is how childish and immature it makes the Starcraft community look, on top of limiting the audience to mainly males 14-30 years of age.
Among adults with careers, swearing is generally seen as rather immature and low brow, something that only comes out among mature adults during moments of extreme anger. Teenagers and men in their 20s are the worst offenders for swearing, and they as a group are also the most immature group of people.
The arguments FOR swearing are very weak, and come down to "I can say whatever I want", which isn't true because when you're in the public eye you should follow basic social ettiquette and not use disrepectful and derogatory language. You never need the words, there are a wide range of much more nuanced expressive words available.
On June 23 2011 12:51 xrebelx wrote: why should casters change their language/style for the lowest common denominator? most people watching pro sc2 aren't children.
One could argue that the lowest common denominator in the arena of language are the people who swear all the time without any good reason and don't know how to express themselves without swearing.
On June 23 2011 12:51 xrebelx wrote: why should casters change their language/style for the lowest common denominator? most people watching pro sc2 aren't children.
One could argue that the lowest common denominator in the arena of language are the people who swear all the time without any good reason and don't know how to express themselves without swearing.
Then argue it. He has stated that the lowest common denominator watching competitive sc2 is children which makes sense because of the rating on the game. All you have stated is that you could argue a certain way, you haven't actually argued anything.
Is swearing really what you should be worrying about? It's not smart to spend your quality time with the kids watching pro starcraft 2 anyways. If a dad Always had his kids watch NFL games with him for quality time I'd think it would be just as irresponsible. There's more important things you could be encouraging and teaching them. Being a professional gamer is a difficult and risky job. Why would you want to expose your kids to it like it's something they should admire? I enjoy watching pros myself, but I made that decision on my own. Parents pushing it on their kids I think is unnecessary at that age. You should encourage more useful ways to earn Dad's approval.
On June 24 2011 05:08 Rah wrote: Is swearing really what you should be worrying about? It's not smart to spend your quality time with the kids watching pro starcraft 2 anyways. If a dad Always had his kids watch NFL games with him for quality time I'd think it would be just as irresponsible. There's more important things you could be encouraging and teaching them. Being a professional gamer is a difficult and risky job. Why would you want to expose your kids to it like it's something they should admire? I enjoy watching pros myself, but I made that decision on my own. Parents pushing it on their kids I think is unnecessary at that age. You should encourage more useful ways to earn Dad's approval.
they are kids man, wtf, you act like thats all he does because thats all he said.
i wholeheartedly agree with the OP and i've been thinking it for quite some time. if SC2 wants to become the mainstream giant that everyone wants it to be, it has to become mainstream. when was the last time you heard someone swear while broadcasting a sport, any sport? i don't think i can think of any instances where a professional broadcaster swore on TV because something exciting happened or has said the redsox are raping the yankees. it's not acceptable to do these things when trying to become mainstream. yes sometimes an athlete will curse during a post-game interview, but it's always bleeped and they get fined for it. often times that have to make some sort of public apology. it's time to uphold some standards for SC2. tournament casts should always be PG, and a worry free source of entertainment for parents with young children.
While I can understand the general issue of swearing while at the same time trying to grow into the "normal world", I really really really have a problem with this unbelivable display of hypocrisy.
Its ok for my 8 years old son to watch tiny humans getting torn apart in red explosions of gore, melting down in acid or getting incinerated but its not ok that he could possibly hear the f-word.
What really confuses me about ideas like "Swearing by Proxy" seems to be that some people think that some words are 'worse' for emphasis then others, it's pretty weird.
The word used for emphasis doesn't really have any meaning by itself other then the emphasis. While we know that the word 'fuck' means 'having sex' when used straight, we also know that it just means 'emphasis' in all other contexts.
"That was fucking awesome" and "That was fragaliciously awesome" (Cursing by proxy) are the same sentence with slightly different sounds. If enough people keep using the same word for emphasis, then eventually it'll just enter the litany of curse words. Because that's what curse words are, words you curse with.
Another example to explain how weird this 'curse word' avoidance is from a Swedish perspective is that our two most common curse words are 'Djävlar" (Devils) and "Fan" (The Devil). Now consider that something along the lines of 85% of the population are atheist, these two curse words have -no- meaning whatsoever beyond cursing and emphasis, they are effectively equivalent to "Cursing by proxy".
The only thing to keep in mind in my opinion is that regardless of what word you're using for emphasis, overdoing it makes the word lose a lot of its punch. It doesn't really matter if you're saying "That fucking game was so fucking fucked up" or "That fragging game was so fragging fragged up" either way it's a silly sentence.
Honestly, the whole basis for shielding kids from vulgarity stems off the belief that it stifles their education in language. Is there a shock factor component? Sure. There are definitely some prudish attitudes that will actually experience physical revulsion upon hearing a vulgarity uttered, and that mindset definitely has it's part to play in "protecting the kids". But the more harmful aspect of many vulgarities, in regards to a child's development, lies in their amorphous and/or ambiguous nature. There are tons of ways to replace or modify a sentence to be riddled with vulgarities and ultimately be unable to actually convey the explicit idea that the speaker/writer is trying to get across.... merely a general sentiment.
In fairness, there are plenty of non-vulgarities that exhibit the same property, but since they don't share the same shock value as vulgarities do they can be honestly addressed in classrooms. The shock value aspect is just the thing that lamentably makes broaching the subject of their improper use anathema in an educational setting. In an ironic twist of fate, proper education cannot take an appropriate place in "correcting" the "foul" language simply because it considers it to be "too foul" to mention.
Sheltering (or not) a kid from vulgarities or violence or sex or drugs will all have different underpinnings for their reasoning. To wrap them all up under the same umbrella as being "bad" things for children in general doesn't make it hypocritical for different people to evaluate each one's validity or importance differently. Consider that some people believe that exposure to a bad thing to some degree or another is altogether a good thing in the long run. Keeping a kid locked up in a completely sterile environment diminishes their immune system to the point that they risk serious illness or death if they ever leave that sterile environment, and that theme extends beyond the body's physical immune system to determine the whole range of tolerances exhibited in an individual's behavior.
It all boils down to which tolerances a parent (right or wrong) wants to instill in their child; the composite of which determines an entire society's generalized outlook on such things.
Honestly, the whole basis for shielding kids from vulgarity stems off the belief that it stifles their education in language. Is there a shock factor component? Sure. There are definitely some prudish attitudes that will actually experience physical revulsion upon hearing a vulgarity uttered, and that mindset definitely has it's part to play in "protecting the kids". But the more harmful aspect of many vulgarities, in regards to a child's development, lies in their amorphous and/or ambiguous nature. There are tons of ways to replace or modify a sentence to be riddled with vulgarities and ultimately be unable to actually convey the explicit idea that the speaker/writer is trying to get across.... merely a general sentiment.
Does there exist any actual studies on that or is that a post-facto explanation for the puritan behaviour? I have a hard time imagining vulgarities having much of an impact on a childs language development, but I'm not a child psychologist so *shrug*
There have been studies on both sides of the table. On the one hand, populations identified as being exposed to various degrees (volume-wise) of vulgarities showed a correspondence to expository aptitudes. Other studies show that the such exposure is often correlated to socio-economic status as well and that exposure to vulgarity is not necessarily a direct factor.
There are also studies that stem from a more behavioral aspect, where exposure to vulgarities leads to more emotion-based exposition over fact-based exposition... neither of which is "bad" exposition, however education systems generally prioritize fact-based exposition unless you're doing a specific "arts" lesson like in poetry or story composition. Since this is the case, someone inclined to write/speak based on facts will generally score higher than one who favors emotion... coloring the other study's evaluation on aptitudes to be biased towards non-vulgarity.
Aside from the shock factor, it's not that vulgarities are in and of themselves bad things... only that our society, in general, creates an atmosphere where their use is sub-optimal for the education of the child.
Though for those purposes it doesn't really matter if you're cussing or not does it?
Regardless if you're saying "That's fucking awesome" or "That's super awesome" or "That's fragaliciously awesome" you're still using emotion-based exposition and that's presumably what your child will learn, it'll just be using another word for it.
I feel reasonably sure that there are vastly more important factors in determining whether someone will grow up favouring fact-based or emotional-based exposition then whether the emotional exposition is done with curse words or not and ideally aren't most people supposed to learn 'context' and use whatever is the most appropriate for the current situation?
You curse when you drop something heavy on your foot or someone particularly mean manages to sneak reapers into your mineral line, you don't curse in your Curriculum Vitae or your research reports.
On June 25 2011 00:18 Zironic wrote: Though for those purposes it doesn't really matter if you're cussing or not does it?
Regardless if you're saying "That's fucking awesome" or "That's super awesome" or "That's fragaliciously awesome" you're still using emotion-based exposition and that's presumably what your child will learn, it'll just be using another word for it.
I feel reasonably sure that there are vastly more important factors in determining whether someone will grow up favouring fact-based or emotional-based exposition then whether the emotional exposition is done with curse words or not and ideally aren't most people supposed to learn 'context' and use whatever is the most appropriate for the current situation?
You curse when you drop something heavy on your foot or someone particularly mean manages to sneak reapers into your mineral line, you don't curse in your Curriculum Vitae or your research reports.
The difference between the 2nd phrase and the other two is that, even though "super" is not a strictly precise word, it is a word that is formally associated with magnitude. "Fucking" and "Fragaliciously" *may* indicate magnitude given the appropriate context, but aren't by definition related to magnitude. "Fucking" could similarly just be equating the awesomeness to that of having sex which is subjective in itself... or it could mean it's a whole lot of awesome.... or it could mean that the complement of something being awesome is merely conciliatory or even derisive. In other words, it is an intrinsically poor word choice because of it's ambiguity. The same could be said for "Fragaliciously" as it is a contrived word that even within the context of a gamer audience could still be misconstrued in different ways. And that really goes for any word that relies upon context that isn't conveyed a priori to the audience.
And perhaps the words emotion-based and fact-based are poorly chosen terms, and we should rather phrase them in terms of the pure-ly emotive (i.e. requiring emotive context to decipher meaning) and formal (i.e. leaning on pre-defined formal definitions). One also shouldn't read into it that people that are around vulgarity can't context switch when needed and write equisite formal exposition... only that when you're looking at works from the two extremes one is going to tend to use more formal language than the other more often than not. As it stands, the education system is biased to favor formal communication over emotive for any kind of work outside purposefully artistic bodies (perhaps a failing of our education systems... definitely debateable).
And for the record... I don't curse when bad things happen as you assert, though neither do I pass judgement upon those who do as I totally understand it. I do admit to having "fake" cursed on occasion (replacing vulgar colloquialisms with "safe" approximations such as "gosh durn'it!" or "sassafras!"), and know many who ascribe to it as the "proper" alternative to cursing, but more often than not I just react with grunts, groans, or an otherwise contorted, but silent, face. Ya... I know... I'm just weird like that.
I don't think there will be a standard casting language; however, I think over time, as SC2 becomes more popular and streams become more "corporate" because of sponsors and whatnot.. certain censorships will definitely happen.
Well I aside from my usual USA-rolleyes-sex-worse-than-killing-attitude I actually don't see a problem with labelling the streams :-) Or maybe the unlabeled ones are automatically the 16+ ones and the ones with "clean" language can add a label to them *100% cursewordfree* :-)
As a German I really find thins kind of dicussion otherworldly.
Maybe because the swearing culture around here is completely different. Our classics like Goehte and Schiller used swearwords in their writing. And at times when we still had an Emperor revered variety comedians like Karl Valentin could be as foul mouthed as it gets if they wanted to.
There are no real language restrictions and banned words on German telvision. That doesn't mean everyone swears all the time. It also doesn't mean there is outrage if anyone does swear. Some channels opt to beep more than others. Some channels don't beep at all.
Also the swearing itself is different. The standards are mostly of shit/ass nature. But also a good swearer is not considered someone who can utter the top 7 swearwords as often and with as much emphasis as possible, but usually the one who can create the best and most uniquely fitting and disgusting compounds for which our language lends itself so easily and fruitfully. Little kids often make a real contest out of that.
A truly great caster, just like a truly great speaker, can convey the information they want to convey effectively, in an engaging and hilarious manner, without resorting to cursing or some other form of attention-grabber. It's the reason Day[9]'s dailies are fantastic and very popular while he usually keeps them very PG (except for funday mondays, but hey, at least most of the time). It's also the reason why I like to watch GSL over most other SC2 tournaments, and why Wolf/QXC is my new favorite caster pair - they're completely professional and safe for everyone (unless I missed something huge recently), they are both very knowledgeable and can convey that well, and they're entertaining to listen to.
Sure, swearing is funny and a quick attention-getter, but if we hold our casters to the standard "be funny and knowledgeable while being safe for cable television", we'll get a lot of improvement in our casting. That said, I don't want mature streams to go away entirely - I'd support some kind of rating system implemented by TL (or even beyond if we wanted to set a standard for all of SC2). Maybe E for casts that are safe for everyone (GSL, most dailies, etc.), T for casts that are mostly clean but contain a few more sexual innuendos/maybe the occasional swear(most streams, TL Attack, NASL, etc.), and then M for the streams that are completely uncensored (Destiny).
The majority of Portuguese people are so illiterate they either don't understand it in movies or tv-shows, or they act like dumb kids and start using the word because it's "cool".
On May 25 2011 01:33 jamssi wrote: Only in America would this be an issue.
No only in Europe wouldn't this be an issue. You can't publicly have a potty mouth in Korea, Asia, Middle East or anywhere else I've been and I've been all over the world.
EPT
