EPTIt's only words Öo
the people that are offended by words are prude
just words nothing else just words
Casting Language Standards - Page 32
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Cuiu
Germany410 Posts
It's only words Öo the people that are offended by words are prude just words nothing else just words | ||
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Blondinbengt
Sweden578 Posts
On June 03 2011 14:50 Falling wrote: Just going to throw this out there for curiosity sake as everyone seems to make a big deal out of nationality. Are swear words not considered as serious when English is learned as a second language? I'm talking as a general rule of thumb- I know I'm going to get a bunch of replies either saying they are another nationality other than is shown. I know I'm also going to get a bunch of 'English is my first language and I've been keeping it real with f-bombs since the 90's'. But for ESL's, is curses in another language ever that big of a deal or just amusing? I know for myself, if I learn the 'bad' words in another language, they don't seem like such a big deal. There's little cultural context and the only reason why I know they're bad is someone has told me. In addition, curse words are generally the first words one learns in another language. In Sweden, there really aren't any ''special'' words you can say that will cause any sort of ''you shouldn't say that''-reaction. Also, as far as I know, there is no swedish FCC and you can hear swear words on TV at any time, on any channel during any show (obviously certain types of programmes like cartoons for small children don't use any swear words, but I don't think there are any rules against it). This is why I think many swedes (myself included) really can't relate to this whole professionalism = no swearing thing, swearing on TV (for example, during a sports cast) isn't regarded as unprofessional. Now, if someone on TV were swearing every other word, then people might think it's dumb, but as long as there's context swedes aren't going to react more negatively to swear words than to any other words. | ||
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Regina
Netherlands148 Posts
On June 03 2011 16:32 Blondinbengt wrote: In Sweden, there really aren't any ''special'' words you can say that will cause any sort of ''you shouldn't say that''-reaction. Also, as far as I know, there is no swedish FCC and you can hear swear words on TV at any time, on any channel during any show (obviously certain types of programmes like cartoons for small children don't use any swear words, but I don't think there are any rules against it). This is why I think many swedes (myself included) really can't relate to this whole professionalism = no swearing thing, swearing on TV (for example, during a sports cast) isn't regarded as unprofessional. Now, if someone on TV were swearing every other word, then people might think it's dumb, but as long as there's context swedes aren't going to react more negatively to swear words than to any other words. Totally agree with this. It's a typical American "problem" so to speak. Europeans are much less vulnerable for offending words since it isnt censored on our television nor radio etc... I guess if the Americans feel like it should be censored do it, for the European streams stick with what you do right now  don't become an American | ||
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SkyCrawler
United States69 Posts
On June 03 2011 16:10 nohbrows wrote: While major tournaments(TSL, NASL, GSL, MLG, etc) should keep the level of swearing and inappropriateness to a minimum (or none at all), the profanity level of individual casting streams/VODs of casters/commentators should be up to the caster himself. Since it's an individual's choice to watch the stream/VOD of the caster, if the profanity is offensive, one can simply choose not to watch it. In addition, I believe that for a sport that is relatively young and still not as widely accepted as traditional sports such as soccer, the casters have to infuse some sort of personality into their casts to attract a more mainstream audience, especially when the game in question (starcraft2) is by nature a difficult game to comprehend from the beginner's standpoint. That being said, I think that the level of professionalism in major tournaments must be held up to a high standard. Commentators in sports such as basketball and football and soccer retain a rather high level of professionalism while retaining their level of enthusiasm for the sport--in fact, sometimes they become shining examples of good rhetoric in whichever language the commentator the is speaking in. But to the OP, I think that it is a balance of one's one parenting values and the values of casters. In addition, one must take into account that the game's intended audience are those who are 13 and over(at least in the United States) and therefore one can reasonably expect that the community of players will be most likely those who have heard swear words in their lifetime and is either not bothered by it or can handled it maturely. But I like how you are introducing Starcraft to the younger generation of new players! I agree, major tournaments need to be able to open to as wide an audience as possible by keeping the level of swearing and inappropriateness as low as possible. As I am from the US I can only speak for my own culture and that there is an effort to shield the ears of younger kids and it is frowned upon when no effort is done to. That is the fact of US culture. No amount of criticism, relevant or otherwise, will change this fact. Thus for the sake of eSports in the US, there should be attempts to tone it down (where regionally relevant) as it is all in good business. Additionally, in the US and because of the cultural tendency I mentioned before, anything that a parent feels is inappropriate for their kids are also prevented from watching it freely themselves. Such parents will be "forced" (as in they will have to choose to either modify their watching habits or parenting style) to watch these shows out of view of their kids. So in answering the OP, language standards would only help bring in new viewers. In the US vulgar language is an excluding element (the # of people able to watch a movie decreases as its rating goes from G to PG to PG13 to NC17 to R). I can't recall anyone I know specifically watching a caster because he was particularly vulgar. Unless someone can argue successfully that vulgarity brings more people than having language standards would, then from a business standpoint then language standards are useful. The idea of mainstream is to make something appealing to as many people as possible. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On May 25 2011 01:04 warsinger wrote: I just composed this as an email to State of the Game. Hope they address it, but I'd like to hear what the always level-headed and polite TL community has to say on the issue. I am a father of 2 boys (12 and 8) and we love watching Starcraft casts and tournaments. We watch most of NASL, TSL, IPL and occasionally GSL as well as lots of independent casts and streams. My oldest son and I have attended both MLG Dallas 2010 & 2011. My question is about maturity level of the casting. Using MPAA ratings for comparison some casters I can count on to use PG language and jokes and some go all the way up to R level (or beyond). I try to learn the various styles and "ratings" for each caster and tournament and filter appropriately. If I know a caster is likely to drop F-bombs I will listen solo or maybe watch it on mute with the kids. Then there are casts that are mostly clean but occasionally use some harsher language or sexually oriented jokes (looking at you Gretorp). Another situation is during post game interviews with the players. 5 seconds into the TSL3 championship post game interview, the F-bomb emerges after a pretty clean cast. I reached for the mute button very quickly. Glad my wife didn't hear it. I'm not trying to complain or say there should be any censorship, but I would like to hear your discussion on some sort of mechanism for determining what the age appropriateness of specific tournament casts will be. Would it be possible to have some sort of rating system so that when tuning in to watch a tournament I can know that the casters will or will not be using certain types of language? Another idea is a PG edited version where someone has taken the time to bleep out parts of the cast (like the TV version of an R movie). I'd love to have this for something like the Day9 Daily but I know such things take time and money. Can you imagine an edited version of SOTG? As esports continues to grow I think this may be a barrier to entry for some like myself who are trying to protect the minds and ears of our little children at least for a few more years. I realize my standards are quite different from many but there are established standards for the major TV networks. Would a model like this help or hurt esports development? Love to hear your thoughts. Warsinger Bronze Division Braxis Zeta So, you let your toddlers watch content involving killing and destruction, but you are worried that an occasional "fuck" from a caster is going to corrupt the minds of your kids? And whats wrong with "sexually oriented jokes"? I was 7 when I watched my first porno - admittedly not understanding much at the time - tried my first beer not long after that, and still, I never got arrested or got into any other sort of trouble. Do I need to mention, that I hold an academic degree and that I'm a productive member of society? Honestly, you US Americans have a screwed up relationship with sexuality and violence. Boobs being shown on TV create an outrage and a scandal (J. Jackson + Timberlake), but at the same time every underage fuck can buy a gun in a supermarket and kill his neighbours... | ||
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purpose
Sweden1017 Posts
If you have children who are not old enough to watch something that might contian the F-word, then its your job as a parent to make sure whatever they watch is safe. You can never demand that a stream or tourney cast remove sertain words just because you dont like it. Its up to them to decide what they will say or not say. If enough people dont watch then that of course will probably force a change but in the end we just have to accept that people are allowed to use whatever words they want. | ||
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Lutto
Sweden198 Posts
thats just my opinion... Edit: I also think americans are pretty stupid with how you have these things, its like destiny said about SAW movies and pornos rly.. and also what incontrol said "The people in Europe is just looking at us and says:What the f**k is wrong with them".... | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
On June 03 2011 20:24 IVN wrote: Honestly, you US Americans have a screwed up relationship with sexuality and violence. Boobs being shown on TV create an outrage and a scandal (J. Jackson + Timberlake), but at the same time every underage fuck can buy a gun in a supermarket and kill his neighbours... This is the same thing as me saying everyone in Canada is from Quebec or everyone in England is a chav. | ||
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Pragmalice
United States7 Posts
On one level, there is just some arbitrary social stigma attached to some word for one reason or another. Usually there is some kind of associated shock factor involved where some colloquialism is used to reference some taboo subject in anything other than a purely professional/observational setting. Think about it. Every vulgar word/phrase you use has some other "normal" word/phrase that can replace it... it simply doesn't sound as "cool" or "shocking". At this level, setting standards of communication is simply about being sensitive to other people's sensibilities, justified or otherwise. Also bear in mind that there are plenty of word/phrases that aren't specifically considered vulgar, but are still considered offensive to some (for instance "rape" or "slave") and would fall into this same category of standards. On another level, there is pride of the wordsmith. Resorting to vulgarities to get your point across is commonly regarded as intellectual and/or creative bankruptcy. At this level, setting standards is more about enforcing a certain level of quality in communications. Eloquence wins the game, so to speak. Taken to an extreme, we'd have a bunch of Steve Miller wannabes parading the airwaves, but I hope you get the picture. It isn't so much about being pretentious as being professional. In terms of the community having standards, I think every caster should strive for excellence in communications and sensitivity to others regardless if they're major names doing big events or just a personal casters doing stuff for kicks n' giggles. The more popular the caster, the more important striving for those standards is, but it is still important for the most obscure casters too. So long as you are a part of the community, you're also a spokesperson of that community whether you want to be or not. Alienating part of the community, even if it is a part that you don't personally care to associate with, still damages the community as a whole. Anyone arguing that censoring one's self in the name of keeping standards is tantamount to "selling out", as Destiny put it on SotG, is being short-sighted and selfish. I know that counter-culture principles are the hip/cool thing to follow, but they are also, by definition, what erodes communities. Shouldn't we, as a community, instead be looking to foster growth and cooperation? | ||
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PlayerSFoxeR
Ireland44 Posts
On June 10 2011 16:31 Pragmalice wrote: Resorting to vulgarities to get your point across is commonly regarded as intellectual and/or creative bankruptcy. At this level, setting standards is more about enforcing a certain level of quality in communications. Eloquence wins the game, so to speak. Taken to an extreme, we'd have a bunch of Steve Miller wannabes parading the airwaves, but I hope you get the picture. It isn't so much about being pretentious as being professional. In terms of the community having standards, I think every caster should strive for excellence in communications and sensitivity to others regardless if they're major names doing big events or just a personal casters doing stuff for kicks n' giggles. The more popular the caster, the more important striving for those standards is, but it is still important for the most obscure casters too. So long as you are a part of the community, you're also a spokesperson of that community whether you want to be or not. Alienating part of the community, even if it is a part that you don't personally care to associate with, still damages the community as a whole. Anyone arguing that censoring one's self in the name of keeping standards is tantamount to "selling out", as Destiny put it on SotG, is being short-sighted and selfish. I know that counter-culture principles are the hip/cool thing to follow, but they are also, by definition, what erodes communities. Shouldn't we, as a community, instead be looking to foster growth and cooperation? I don't see anything creative or intellectual about confining yourself to a set list of words and I don't see how vulgarity is considered uncreative. When people have to censor themselves then it's not them anymore, it's some watered down product and it's saddening to see that. I enjoy seeing people raw and unrefined. Sure some people can just be jackasses, but there's nothing wrong with vulgarity, after all they're just a word. People like Day9 and Destiny use vulgarity, albeit true one moreso than the other and they're both still awesome people as far as I'm concerned. I have no problem with people who don't use them by default or whatever, but I don't think refining people is a good thing. As for calling "counter-culture" the hip and cool thing to do, it's just some label people put on stuff they consider not good for little Jimmy, which is of course totally subjective. We can foster a community without just surrendering to what has deemed itself "culture" in whatever specific country, other places around the world do have different cultures regarding stuff like this and they've turned out fine. Long story short the Birth of Venus wouldn't be the same if she was wearing a one-piece swim suit and they made sure you couldn't see her tooshie. Fuck. | ||
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ManOnBoy
37 Posts
The OP thinks his 12 year old son has never heard the F-Bomb before. 6th grade is full of vulgarity. Hell, your 8 year old probably hears worse simply because its new to the younger kids and its cooler because "the older kids do it." Wise up people. | ||
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Sinborn
United States275 Posts
Location matters immensely. The ability to swear is a controllable element of communication. You can bloat the significance of cursing as an integral part of your personality, but it has proven itself to be more difficult to not swear in various situations. Therefore, it seems reasonable that casters do the harder thing as a matter of professionalism in a real-job situation. Cursing in streams implies that it is okay in that situation, when it actually isn't. It would be a disservice to the impressionable community to make it seem like sportscasting allows vulgarity. Streaming is a product of personality, however. If anything, it feeds off of the rigidity evidenced in the general workplace by presenting something more raw and real. If you like people being as true to their nuances as possible, streaming seems like a great place to expect it. It is okay here because the target audience not only accepts the use of vulgarity as a means of self expression, but enjoys it. | ||
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Pragmalice
United States7 Posts
On June 11 2011 04:18 PlayerSFoxeR wrote: I don't see anything creative or intellectual about confining yourself to a set list of words and I don't see how vulgarity is considered uncreative. When people have to censor themselves then it's not them anymore, it's some watered down product and it's saddening to see that. I enjoy seeing people raw and unrefined. Sure some people can just be jackasses, but there's nothing wrong with vulgarity, after all they're just a words. People like Day9 and Destiny use vulgarity, albeit true one moreso than the other and they're both still awesome people as far as I'm concerned. I have no problem with people who don't use them by default or whatever, but I don't think refining people is a good thing. As for calling "counter-culture" the hip and cool thing to do, it's just some label people put on stuff they consider not good for little Jimmy, which is of course totally subjective. We can foster a community without just surrendering to what has deemed itself "culture" in whatever specific country, other places around the world do have different cultures regarding stuff like this and they've turned out fine. Long story short the Birth of Venus wouldn't be the same if she was wearing a one-piece swim suit and they made sure you couldn't see her tooshie. Fuck. Are you going to avoid a stream because a lack of vulgarity? You may not mind the vulgarity, or perhaps you even enjoy it in all it's raw expository glory, but are you going to actively avoid streams where they've censored themselves? The reverse is true for many people, whereby the lack of censorship (warranted or not) limits your potential audience, and thereby potentially affects the whole of the game / e-sports community. Keep in mind that the underpinnings of this argument are in terms of "growing the e-sports community" and establishing some degree of mainstream legitimacy to the extent that such a thing is possible. If that isn't a goal you want to buy into, then by all means be as individualistic, vulgar, shocking, sensationalist, etc. that you want to be. Kudos. However, recognize that anyone that does buy into that goal will have a vested interest in downplaying or marginalizing you despite any other contributions you may provide to the community. Mind you, I'm not actually suggesting what standards we should actually adhere to. I do think part of that depends on the nature of both the game and venue at hand. Whichever exhibits the higher standard is the one that should probably be adhered to. It still doesn't diminish the value of holding yourself to a higher standard than what is required of you, and that it is best for the community as a whole for every individual caster to strive for those higher standards no matter the circumstance. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On June 03 2011 16:31 Cuiu wrote: i dont rly get the conversation here It's only words Öo the people that are offended by words are prude just words nothing else just words Being prudish has nothing to do with being offended by words like nigger. The point is not to use offensive words because they are aggressive. Using these words shows a lack of respect for others and that is a bad thing for any society. Some "low level parts of society" may use these aggressive words like candy and not get annoyed by them anymore (kinda like "hey asshole, what's up?"), but assuming that everyone "has to" think of them as "normal words" as they do is just total arrogance. The perfect solution has come from Day[9] IMO. If you want to be the "cool swearing caster [idiot]" you should adapt his "cursing by proxy" and make up new words. This has been suggested before by Oxhorn for WoW and it seems like a good idea. The only problem is that not everyone is as good as Day[9]. | ||
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algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
"I fucking love you man." "Fucking yeah!" "Fucking rights!" "Fuck yeah!" If this is a mainstream sport (many Americans might disagree) and is considered professional how can we claim cursing makes us seem less mainstream? Compare this to a recent NASL interview (with Ret I think???) that was ruined because it was just a series of BEEPS. | ||
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Phaded
Australia579 Posts
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SuperGnu
Sweden240 Posts
Says everything you need to know about the F-Word. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On June 03 2011 20:24 IVN wrote: And whats wrong with "sexually oriented jokes"? I was 7 when I watched my first porno - admittedly not understanding much at the time - tried my first beer not long after that, and still, I never got arrested or got into any other sort of trouble. Do I need to mention, that I hold an academic degree and that I'm a productive member of society? This isn't normal or desirable for children. Not saying you're some maladjusted person but I wouldn't want my children watching porn at age 7 and drinking "not long after"; yet, I'd hardly call myself a prude. What you described is an extreme situation. I think it's also a little presumptuous to tell that man how he should raise his kids. | ||
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IPA
United States3206 Posts
On June 11 2011 04:18 PlayerSFoxeR wrote: Long story short the Birth of Venus wouldn't be the same if she was wearing a one-piece swim suit and they made sure you couldn't see her tooshie. Your example is hilarious. Do you think its beauty and enduring popularity are because of the nudity? Really? The human form in that context is about as far from vulgarity as possible; Botticelli saw the human form as the peak of beauty, balance and proportion. Crudely comparing its nudity to cursing casters is patently absurd. Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again: those who can use cursing and vulgar language for beautiful, creative and articulate purposes (George Carlin, the Coen Brothers, Vonnegut) are few and far between. I'm not a prude in the least bit; I just think there are far better ways to express yourself than "derp fuck yeah, that was fuckin' sick brah derppp!" Cheers. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
It's a bit harder for me to ascertain why sex and sexuality elicit such severe outcry on behalf of parents, as well as the moral opprobrium associated with child sexuality in general. I guess it's somewhat like imagining one's parents doing the dirty deed, something we'd rather not think about...but I'd love if someone could explain to me why an exposed breast garners an instant adult rating, whereas mass murder and flayed limbs can still reliably be pg-13. @_@ | ||
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