I feel like there is a fundamental divide in mentality on this thread.
There's the I want the casts to remain how I want it so that I can enjoy it and if this restricts access to others (either by age or by perceptions of immaturity), then they have to deal with it because I want my crude humour in casts.
Vs
I want others to share these casts with my friends/ family but I know there are age or perception barriers to overcome, so I'd like to see a few changes so that others can join in.
I don't know. Is it so wrong to want to lower barriers of entry to enjoying esports?
Maybe it's a tangent, but I see a parallel to the older days of BW English casting where several outspoken TL members would absolutely rag on English casters, preferring Korean casters which no Westerner could understand. Because Korean casters were way more indepth then Klazart and the rest of the SC2GG casters and damn SC2GG for lowering the barrier to entry of enjoying esports. The culture of BW is to watch it in Korean and if you didn't like it, you needed to learn to like it. (The whole, the outsiders need to adapt to our own internal culture argument.)
Having just skimmed through this thread, I just want to apologize to the few people who actually tried to contribute to the original topic. This thread quickly went from the OP simply wanting some rating system for casters/program to America sucks, censorship and SC2 is rated T for teen. Shame on all of you! I'm surprised this isn't even locked yet, R1CH pretty much solved the issue anyway.
I will say, however, that you can't underestimate how a little professionalism can go a long way.
On May 27 2011 20:45 Drolla wrote: This thread has sadly gone way off topic. In happier news TL added streamers an option to set a maturity rating, possibly in response to this thread.
Hopefully this commnet won't get lost in the mists of troll land
Trying to prevent your kids swearing by completely preventing any exposure to it will work about as well as trying to stop them getting pregnant by abstinence-only sex education. The fact that the same people tend to be proponents of both methods is probably not a coincidence. Even if you somehow manage to raise an 18-year-old who has never heard the word "fuck", the moment he discovers it, he's going to go around saying it for the next month.
Swearing is a useful linguistic tool for emphasis, and all the casters I've seen typically use it purely for this purpose. Making it taboo not only deprives them of this tool, but likely makes your kids even more eager to swear when they inevitably do learn it.
On May 27 2011 20:45 Drolla wrote: This thread has sadly gone way off topic. In happier news TL added streamers an option to set a maturity rating, possibly in response to this thread.
Agreed. It went from a simple request for some cleaner casting to a huge parenting discussion which is sadly very heavily represented by people who are not parents and don't know how to raise children.
Putting that aside, it's really cool that R1CH added a way for people concerned about the content of the streams they view here on TL to get some insight before watching one of the streams while young ones are around. Bravo to the TL staff and hopefully the trolls will soon subside.
Trying to prevent your kids swearing by completely preventing any exposure to it will work about as well as trying to stop them getting pregnant by abstinence-only sex education. The fact that the same people tend to be proponents of both methods is probably not a coincidence. Even if you somehow manage to raise an 18-year-old who has never heard the word "fuck", the moment he discovers it, he's going to go around saying it for the next month.
Swearing is a useful linguistic tool for emphasis, and all the casters I've seen typically use it purely for this purpose. Making it taboo not only deprives them of this tool, but likely makes your kids even more eager to swear when they inevitably do learn it.
In regards to this post I would say that you're not really comparing apples to apples here. Sexual education is something that is taught to teenagers and is absolutely necessary for these teens to be informed to make good decisions.
The issue of swearing in casting, as I understand it, is focused more around the affect it has on much younger children who still repeat a large amount of what they hear. Obviously people get exposed to swearing at some point in their lives but most parents don't want their children to grow up thinking it's acceptable to speak like that all the time which is why certain things are best left for adults.
Swearing is not a linguistic tool by the way. It's a crutch for people who lack the vocabulary and intellect to accurately verbalize their thoughts. If you want to emphasize something then learn useful, non offensive words that accomplish what you're trying to say.
That all being said, I'm still not opposed to swearing in general and if casters want to swear that's fine with me. It would be helpful for some people who do enjoy watching SC2 with their children though to have some way to see what type of language they can expect from various streams that they may enjoy watching. So again I say thanks to R1CH for hearing the parents in the community and offering up a solution!
On May 27 2011 18:06 Bread779 wrote: Having just skimmed through this thread, I just want to apologize to the few people who actually tried to contribute to the original topic. This thread quickly went from the OP simply wanting some rating system for casters/program to America sucks, censorship and SC2 is rated T for teen. Shame on all of you! I'm surprised this isn't even locked yet, R1CH pretty much solved the issue anyway.
I will say, however, that you can't underestimate how a little professionalism can go a long way.
As I've said, the addition of the language option by R1CH should effectively solve the problem, but a lot of people started bringing up professionalism in casts and the desire to grow eSports yada yada, which took us of topic. Also, since you added to the off-topic discussion in your post, let me address it once more.
I mentioned the T for Teen because it should act as a general rating of what to expect in terms of age appropriation for those watching and playing the game. For all major events, leagues and tournaments it's pretty much PG-13, which is roughly the equivalent of a T rating, so I was simply saying, if you want a rating to consult, look at the back of the box, the content of all major events matches that content. Now, individual streams tend to have varying degrees of language but R1CH's language rating should solved any issues with that.
On May 27 2011 17:25 Falling wrote: I feel like there is a fundamental divide in mentality on this thread.
There's the I want the casts to remain how I want it so that I can enjoy it and if this restricts access to others (either by age or by perceptions of immaturity), then they have to deal with it because I want my crude humour in casts.
Vs
I want others to share these casts with my friends/ family but I know there are age or perception barriers to overcome, so I'd like to see a few changes so that others can join in.
I don't know. Is it so wrong to want to lower barriers of entry to enjoying esports?
Maybe it's a tangent, but I see a parallel to the older days of BW English casting where several outspoken TL members would absolutely rag on English casters, preferring Korean casters which no Westerner could understand. Because Korean casters were way more indepth then Klazart and the rest of the SC2GG casters and damn SC2GG for lowering the barrier to entry of enjoying esports. The culture of BW is to watch it in Korean and if you didn't like it, you needed to learn to like it. (The whole, the outsiders need to adapt to our own internal culture argument.)
Also, I don't think some profanity and slightly mature jokes are unprofessional at all, and I don't know if changing the format and content of casts would be worth it for expanding the scene, because we don't know how much it would actually expand it for the changes that would potentially be made. Additionally, I don't think swearing is a crutch, I think it's a tool that can be used effectively or excessively and can be particularly useful in comedy when used appropriately. If it were as simple as reducing the mature content of something to make it more popular, then every bloody film, television show etc. should very well aim for a G-rating. I don't know if weighing the possible changes to content in particular in regards to the target audience would be something I'd want just so that a younger audience, for which the game is not age-recommended could enjoy it.
Also, I don't really know anyone, from my friends to of-age family members who would really be put off by the mild profanity in all major events and tournaments. They're doing perfectly fine in my opinion.
On May 28 2011 00:52 Mordiford wrote: As I've said, the addition of the language option by R1CH should effectively solve the problem, but a lot of people started bringing up professionalism in casts and the desire to grow eSports yada yada, which took us of topic. Also, since you added to the off-topic discussion in your post, let me address it once more.
The option wont solve the problem, because there are too many kids who are unattended while watching Starcraft. It is a curse of our times that parents dont have enough time to do that anymore, so the responsibility of the casters remains. As R1CH mentioned it is the responsibility of the casters to set the rating correctly, but the fact also remains that not everyone who watches Starcraft goes to Teamliquid first and then looks for a Stream.
Oh and lets not forget the "X rated" = more attractive to kids due to the thrill of doing something illegal. It has made rappers famous and might do the same for certain casters who are willing to stoop to such low levels.
tl;dr: The problem remains, but Teamliquid has done all it could / should ...
Unfortunately nothing good can come of this thread, in my honest opinion. Cultural differences makes this almost impossible to discuss in any sensible way.
On May 27 2011 23:20 Achaia wrote: Agreed. It went from a simple request for some cleaner casting
I don't think there was ever even a request for a change in casting from the OP. Everyone apparently read it that way though.
Sorry, I guess he didn't directly request cleaner casting. He was actually asking for a rating system so he could determine what games would be appropriate to watch with his sons. The general effect though was that he prefers to watch cleaner casting, I guess that's not to say that he's putting the pressure on the casters to provide this though, merely that he wants some way to tell what the language used in the casting is before he watches it with his kids.
On May 28 2011 00:52 Mordiford wrote: As I've said, the addition of the language option by R1CH should effectively solve the problem, but a lot of people started bringing up professionalism in casts and the desire to grow eSports yada yada, which took us of topic. Also, since you added to the off-topic discussion in your post, let me address it once more.
The option wont solve the problem, because there are too many kids who are unattended while watching Starcraft. It is a curse of our times that parents dont have enough time to do that anymore, so the responsibility of the casters remains. As R1CH mentioned it is the responsibility of the casters to set the rating correctly, but the fact also remains that not everyone who watches Starcraft goes to Teamliquid first and then looks for a Stream.
Oh and lets not forget the "X rated" = more attractive to kids due to the thrill of doing something illegal. It has made rappers famous and might do the same for certain casters who are willing to stoop to such low levels.
tl;dr: The problem remains, but Teamliquid has done all it could / should ...
It solves the problem of the OP. What you keep bringing up is past anything that anyone can solve short of removing all content from everywhere that isn't G-rated, because kids will always be able to watch stuff that's age inappropriate, from movies, to television shows, to music...
It's the responsibility of the parents to restrict access to age-inappropriate content, it's ridiculous to expect this content to be eliminated in it's entirely. Ratings and notices are the most that can really be done in this age unless you want to censor and remove all content that may be inappropriate for children. It's the parents responsibility to police access to inappropriate content.
On May 26 2011 15:48 rightstuff wrote: Ignoring the fact that there may be kids watching casts, professional standards should be held to professional casted games. If our goal is to promote esports and SC2 into a mainstream entertainment field like TV in the west, or even to promote into general acceptability as a sport, we need to hold our professionals to standards we would expect from other types of sports casting. If you watch a professionally cast Basketball, Football, Football (the world sport kind ), etc. you don't expect the casters to be swearing on camera. In fact, as far as the US is concerned you'd be fined for it.
An interesting question that I'd pose is: Do you think standards should be different for casters in an Esport even instead of a normal sporting event? Also, does the fact that most casting is done online make a difference in what standards we hold?
The question is comparability, Starcraft 2 as a game has it's own individual rating and contains content that you will not see in Basketball, Football etc... I don't think they're directly comparable, and then there's the aspects of casual, gamer culture which I actually enjoy. I don't think any of the major casted events are unprofessional, but they aren't clean either. They're age appropriate to the rating Starcraft 2 itself receives, with content that is similar to the warning label on the back of the box, interesting enough. I think that's perfectly fine.
You make a valid point. SC2 is already rated and that should speak to content of broadcasts as well. However, I think I should have been more clear. There is a minimal standard of professionalism expected for public face jobs. Vulgarity should be discouraged in professional broadcasts. It's not the age of the community, or general maturity when it comes to swearing, that I'm questioning. It's the idea of professionalism at the workplace. It's not appropriate to use foul language in a public position because it is unseemly and impolite, not because people don't hear or use fuck, shit, damn, etc. in everyday life.
This sketch from "A bit of fry and laurie" pretty much sums my opinion into foul language:
Context is all that matters, Stephen has commented into this matter numerous times, and i doubt you find many people with as good skills in using english language and vocabulary.
First things first. Your kids are watching a war game where sentient beings (except zerg, maybe?) are slaughtering each other mercilessly and you are worried about a sexual joke? A bad word? Give me a break, the silliness of this discussion in the first place is just...crazy amounts of silly. Just plain silly to even discuss this. However, since the world is filled with such silly discussions, we should make sure they are resolved.
We don't have the numbers on this but I would gander on a whim that the number of people watching starcraft with their 8 year old kid is in the minority. I feel it's mostly 16-30 year old males. Those people are adults and can make their own decisions, thus they require no censorship. I feel that censorship or any rating system on this basis alone is irrelevant. However, since the issue is being raised, I feel it's important to find solutions given the need.
If in fact this proves to be a relevant issue in the future, I think the problem lies in the unpredictability of the expletive language and not the language itself. If you could know the language being used beforehand your problem would be solved, or at least partially. You would no longer have to worry about said expletive language being used abruptly, but rather having to watch certain programs on mute with your children, making for a less enjoyable viewing experience. I think the solution is simple then just as the OP has suggested. Just have a rating system and have the casters informed as to what language they can and cannot use for the given rating.
Personally I think the issue is moot given the overall viewer base of starcraft content atm, and that individual exceptions to this rule should create their own solutions, like understanding that their kids are going to use bad language anyways and the whole issue is backwards to begin with.
edit: I say this having heard and read almost no arguments so it seems that many people are saying the same things.
Swearing is not a linguistic tool by the way. It's a crutch for people who lack the vocabulary and intellect to accurately verbalize their thoughts. If you want to emphasize something then learn useful, non offensive words that accomplish what you're trying to say.
I suggest you watch this and the second part from a psychology professor to explain the role of swearing as a linguistic tool:
Add a rating to the casters but please don't make all go all american. I wanna listen to mature casters to. Not all husky... it gets pretty boring. I like psystarcraft for not being PC all the time.
The thing is, the streams indicate if mature language is used, and if that's the case and the person in question does not want his or her children or whatever to hear bad language etc then just don't watch that stream....
EPT
), etc. you don't expect the casters to be swearing on camera. In fact, as far as the US is concerned you'd be fined for it.
