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On May 19 2011 06:48 Ownos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote:
Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there. Koreans aren't exactly flying over here for 'easy money' either.
What LAN in NA, or EU for that matter, would even be worth attending for the Koreans? 1st place prize money in the most prestigious LAN in NA is $5000. The GSL is in the tens of thousands. If the NA scene starts seeing 1st place prize money in the tens of thousands, I can guarantee you we'll be seeing more Koreans.
As for the dude you quoted. His post may come off as a little abbrasive and condescending, but I agree with him in principle.
If you want to be the best, Korea is where it's at. If you don't think you can compete, you can continue to make excuses and just stick to playing the smaller online events and coaching from home.
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Yeah I agree with that sentiment. The foreigners don't want to go because they know they don't really have a chance to win so its obviously not worth risk/reward. GSL represents the cream of the crop top players. The competition in EU and NA is going to be much easier, so it will be easier making a living here as oppossed to korea. Idra leaves Korea and stomps everyone and makes easy money, makes sense from a business perspective. Easier opponents = more money.
Korea = toughest opponents = no money
Jinro and Huk are ballers and want to compete with the best, so they stay.
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On May 19 2011 07:03 gozima wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 06:48 Ownos wrote:On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote:
Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there. Koreans aren't exactly flying over here for 'easy money' either. What LAN in NA, or EU for that matter, would even be worth attending for the Koreans? 1st place prize money in the most prestigious LAN in NA is $5000. The GSL is in the tens of thousands. If the NA scene starts seeing 1st place prize money in the tens of thousands, I can guarantee you we'll be seeing more Koreans. As for the dude you quoted. His post may come off as a little abbrasive and condescending, but I agree with him in principle. If you want to be the best, Korea is where it's at. If you don't think you can compete, you can continue to make excuses and just stick to playing the smaller online events and coaching from home.
What the hell? Code A Championship: $1,400.
Yea, that's totally worth it. Then you need to win your Up/Down matches, then wait 2 months for the next GSL and then take another shot at it in Code S. I can see the MLG winner accepting the Code S invite, but I think they might have problems getting Code A invites.
This isn't about skill. It's everything to do with logistics. We have tournaments that offer better money than Code A. But Koreans don't come because just like Code A for non-Koreans, even if you win you might barely profit or break even, or worse take a hefty loss to the wallet. Most players don't make enough as it is. They don't need to go into debt too.
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While Xeris may technically be correct in saying that his tips for GOM to improve are the only way to get more foreign participation, his tips strike me as too demanding. Making Code A online and giving foreigners direct invites into Code S are some pretty significant concessions, and I can't imagine they would sit well with all the Korean teams. GOM has to ask itself whether the benefits of increased foreign participation outweigh the costs of these concessions, which presumably would turn off the domestic scene which GOM is primarily catering to. We may just have to face that fact that at present, the logistical problems of sending players to a foreign country on the other side of the world are just too difficult to allow for significant foreign participation in the GSL.
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On May 18 2011 22:35 Steamroller wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 16:11 0neder wrote:
Meh, I don't blame them for giving foreigners less of a deal when all the foreigners that come can't compete or choke, then they decide they shouldn't waste slots on them anymore... This, i agree. We would all love to see more foreigners in GSL, but there's no many who truly can compete with the Koreans.
I agree with the statement that the majority of the foreigners that have gone over have choked, but as the team liquid guys have shown us with determination you can be respectable in the korean scene and (I<3 TL), but i dont think jinro, huk, ret, idra are all that the foreign scene has to offer. If more NA/European teams had an agreement with a korean team like the TL/oGs partnership i could see Kiwikaki, Naniwa, Select, Thorzain, Morrow, Sen, TT1, Dimaga, WhiteRa and a number of many foreigners could do very well in GSL, just the problems that Xeris has stated, hold them back.
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Ownos - Ok, so which players off the top of your head make a majority of their sc2 earnings from tournament winnings? They don't. They make their money coaching/streaming/sponsors. All the major tournaments with prize money worth playing for are online in the EU/NA. They have koreans in them. And they aren't doing too terrible.
Stop using bs excuses. First off, I haven't heard many people say they wouldn't take the invite. You are basing your opinion on what? Idra? Nony? Incontrol? Last I heard, thorzain and naniwa would both go. And I would assume(bad move I know) that there are plenty of others that would also love the chance.
This is an all expense paid trip for a month. You are making a name for yourself, getting exposure for sponsors, and playing in the best competition currently available for sc2. What are you missing out on? 100$ weekly tournaments? Yes, those are worth it. How much does idra make an hour coaching? 300$? Incontrol? 100$? Yea I am sure the tournament money is what is keeping them from going.
Stop giving credence to people that want to make a full time wage off a part time practice schedule. Those that have personal reasons not to go I understand. Otherwise, I would rather they didn't go if they don't feel they have the ability to win. Let those that deserve those code A slots have them.
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I personally wouldn't want to have any of the GSL be an Online event. The biggest reason it is my favorite tournament to watch is that you get the whole "Live" atmosphere. If Code A was done online, I actually simply wouldn't watch it, and I am a pretty hardcore sc2 watching fan. I doubt many others would watch it in my stead.
As to advance notice, it only seems fair that players have a lot of time to get ready to fly down to Korea. I hope that much is allowed ^.^
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well if your ballers like nestea mvp, mc. you can make like $40,000 or more a month. not too bad. yes code a is a problem and hard but if your skilled enough to make code s, i think its worth it for having a chance to win $40,000 a month.
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On May 19 2011 02:58 GeorgeForeman wrote:
Instead of direct seeds into Code S, why not direct seeds into up/down matches? Instead of Top 8 from Code A qualify, make it Top 4 with the other 4 spots being filled by top MLG finishers or whatever. Players who qualify for up/down this way don't get back into Code A next season, so if the foreign players don't make it through up/down, they go home. It's a one week commitment, nothing more, and it's only longer than that if you're in Code S.
Seems reasonable to me. I prefer it to giving away a bunch of Code S seeds, since Code S should be something very tough to achieve.
A similar idea was mentioned by a caller on Live on Three tonight and I think it's a fantastic and simple solution. I would even say that MLG players could decide to stay in code A if they want (and have that be paid by GOM).
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Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
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No way in hell would I be alright with Code A being an online tournament. The quality of online tournaments take a huge blow, it's clear that none of the Korean players can even play close to the quality they are capable of when they have to deal with massive amounts of lag.
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I think people are just overreacting. This new exchange between GSL and MLG has just begun and if the experience is good for both, it might materialize in something better.
I think we should just wait and see in a few months before jumping the gun on this one.
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On May 18 2011 13:06 Barca wrote:
Foreigners ask to be placed into Code S instead of Code A...
While everyone gets mad when Koreans placed into MLG...
I don't see the difference.
They're mad because foreigners arent being placed into code s and koreans are being placed(highly) into MLG.
The difference is a month long tournament for $1500 in exchange for 3 day long tourney, auto placement into like ro.16 for $5000. The payoffs for players just aren't equal, and people like equality.
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Great post Duran I totally agree with everything here.
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The Koreans are flying in for a 3day gauntlet of a tournament... where as I could win a month in Korea. Hell, I could suck complete dick in Code A and not even care, I won a fucking trip to Korea - how can people not see the value in that in itself?
Idra and Incontrol may have said they wouldn't take it - but they're making money from other obligations whereas say Machine or Axslav may love to take that opportunity. Think about all of the smaller less-funded teams that would see it as incredible that one of their buds broke through at an MLG and got to go compete in the GSL win, lose or draw. It's fucking cool.
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On May 19 2011 10:11 Laerties wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 13:06 Barca wrote:
Foreigners ask to be placed into Code S instead of Code A...
While everyone gets mad when Koreans placed into MLG...
I don't see the difference. They're mad because foreigners arent being placed into code s and koreans are being placed(highly) into MLG. The difference is a month long tournament for $1500 in exchange for 3 day long tourney, auto placement into like ro.16 for $5000. The payoffs for players just aren't equal, and people like equality.
Maybe if GOM got rid of prize money entirely from Code A and put them in Code, S then whiners would stop crying about Code A having so little prize money.
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Online tournaments are terrible. The fact that the GSL is completely offline is one of the things that makes it the very best tournament. Also, since everyone is mentioning the SotG episode and the comments they made about the MLG/GSL exchange, I'll bring up something I'm surprised none of them did. I can see how they all overlooked it since they're obviously biased towards the foreign scene.
Anyhow, Koreans getting invited to the open bracket vs foreigners getting invited to Code A is hardly even comparable. Anyone can buy a pass and get placed into there, all MLG would be paying for is the ticket. The championship bracket isn't even very stacked if you look at some of the players in it. Compare this to Code A... Not a single foreigner has qualified for Code A although several have tried. HuK, Ret, Haypro, and Moonglade were invited and only HuK was able to stay. Jinro was already in Code S from the open season. Qualifying for Code A is harder than any MLG run will ever be and it is a HUGE privilege to get an invite. The problem lies with the prize distribution between Code A and Code S, everything else favours the foreigners. I'm sure GOM will be modifying that soon anyways.
Getting placed into Code S through anything other than good Code A performance is just ridiculous.
So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
Also, this is completely wrong. Invites to Code A were given and the foreigners performed less than impressively. Invites were also given for the world championship.
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On May 19 2011 10:48 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:11 Laerties wrote:On May 18 2011 13:06 Barca wrote:
Foreigners ask to be placed into Code S instead of Code A...
While everyone gets mad when Koreans placed into MLG...
I don't see the difference. They're mad because foreigners arent being placed into code s and koreans are being placed(highly) into MLG. The difference is a month long tournament for $1500 in exchange for 3 day long tourney, auto placement into like ro.16 for $5000. The payoffs for players just aren't equal, and people like equality. Maybe if GOM got rid of prize money entirely from Code A and put them in Code, S then whiners would stop crying about Code A having so little prize money.
Maybe this is just going over my head, but why would reducing the prize pool stop people who are whining about the lack of money in the prize pool?
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On May 19 2011 11:10 Laerties wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:48 NHY wrote:On May 19 2011 10:11 Laerties wrote:On May 18 2011 13:06 Barca wrote:
Foreigners ask to be placed into Code S instead of Code A...
While everyone gets mad when Koreans placed into MLG...
I don't see the difference. They're mad because foreigners arent being placed into code s and koreans are being placed(highly) into MLG. The difference is a month long tournament for $1500 in exchange for 3 day long tourney, auto placement into like ro.16 for $5000. The payoffs for players just aren't equal, and people like equality. Maybe if GOM got rid of prize money entirely from Code A and put them in Code, S then whiners would stop crying about Code A having so little prize money. Maybe this is just going over my head, but why would reducing the prize pool stop people who are whining about the lack of money in the prize pool?
They might realize monetary reward isn't the reason to compete in Code A. You don't hear much crying when qualifiers don't pay out at all so I'm guessing that could do the trick. Then again, I don't really know what would satisfy them.
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On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote:
Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
I think Thorzain actually would be a perfect candidate for competing in the GSL. He's the kind of player who thrives when given time to prepare for his games, and that's one of the great things about the GSL and why the competition is good. In a small tournament there can be some pretty horrible sets, because they don't have any time to prepare and have to cram in as many games in a day as they do.
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EPT
