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On May 18 2011 07:40 SaturnAttack wrote:
I can't imagine GOM doing this for any other reason except the viewership numbers for GSL are much better with foreigners in the tournament. Even with all the money they put up for plane tickets / housing I can already sense it's going to fail.
A possible solution might be to have top X GSL finishers seeded for the next Code S competition, with the rest being drawn from separate Korean / International qualifiers. If foreigners really doesn't stack up simply decrease the number of slots foreign qualifiers can offer up to the GSL. I hate how little player movement the current system provides.
It's not just viewership. A lot of it has to do with international prestige and fame. From the PlayXP article someone translated:
I have no intention to criticize BW, but in last couple years, WC3 has over shadowed Korean E-sports scene. Koreans were very proud to be the power house in e-sports but there is no doubt that eyes of the foreign fans were on Europe and China where WC3 was a huge hit. It is our chance to reclaim those fans through the GSL, and once again become the undisputed powerhouse of E-sports. That is why need more foreign players to compete in the GSL. If the GSL provides Code A & Code S seeds based on a players performance in other international leagues, more foreign players will be more interested in competing.
Korea's WC 3 scene was a disaster after initial interest was quashed by map scandals. This is about leagues, not players. There were very good Korean WC 3 players like Moon, Lyn, and Remind, who were up there with the best from Europe and China, but with regards to leagues Korea was virtually invisible.
People didn't watch Korean WC 3 leagues. It was the European and Chinese leagues that they watched, and it was Europe/China that were the meccas of WC 3. The best Korean WC 3 players either signed on to Chinese/European teams, or traveled there constantly to compete. Their domestic scene was more or less a joke after the initial period of interest.
What the PlayXP writer, and perhaps GOM, is afraid of is that there would be a repeat of this in SC 2, where the Korean SC 2 scene would become isolated and then fade from public spotlight, and international attention would be focused elsewhere - whether Europe, NA, or China - just as it was in WC 3. This would be hugely damaging to Korea's eSports industry as SC 2 is shaping to be the next big thing in global eSports.
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I guess it's just more of people not wanting to leave their home for extended periods of time. heck, even Idra left Korea already to go back. while he did last there a while, it is just too hard to go to a strange place and make a living there for a very long time. You'd rather be with family and friends and also a place that has the same main language you speak.
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Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there.
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Good explaining Xeris i agree with everything and its true i just dont think its worth it for the prize pool of code A for a month... naw
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Instead of direct seeds into Code S, why not direct seeds into up/down matches? Instead of Top 8 from Code A qualify, make it Top 4 with the other 4 spots being filled by top MLG finishers or whatever. Players who qualify for up/down this way don't get back into Code A next season, so if the foreign players don't make it through up/down, they go home. It's a one week commitment, nothing more, and it's only longer than that if you're in Code S.
Seems reasonable to me. I prefer it to giving away a bunch of Code S seeds, since Code S should be something very tough to achieve.
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I had some doubts but this makes it clear. I thought the expense of traveling to Korea for foreigners was fully paid by GSL. So basically, amateurs without sponsors who are fully capable of winning GSL have to invest a lot of money at a shot at it. That sucks.
In another note, I don't think Code S and Code A divisions should exist. It should just be a one big tournament giving everyone a shot at the finals of the entire thing.
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On May 18 2011 09:49 Hatsu wrote:
A lot of good replies here, let me offer my two cents.
I think this could be solved by thinking a bit outside the box.
For example:
1) Set a rule that requires GSL teams to have at least X (maybe 2) foreigners. This has been done in sports before and, while I am not sure GSL teams would be happy about it, might just work.
2) Set a rule that requires GSL teams to have a foreign team as a GSL partner, OGS-TLAF style. Which is a possibly more palatable version of option 1).
It would be helpful to know what teams actually offer a wage to players and how much (roughly) they pay though. I mean if players are not willing to go due to financial reasons, it must mean that they don't get paid much by their team no?
There are many issues with both choices such as:
- A language barrier. I'd imagine many Korean progamers, team managers and coaches would not know English or Spanish or any other major non-Korean language that well and would suddenly bring a large language barrier into play when trying to incorporate one or two foreigners into their team.
- I think very few foreign players have actually played for a Korean team, such as IdrA once playing for eSTRO and CJ Entus.
- What incentives would there be for a progamer to join a team such as Old Generations, Incredible Miracle, Team SCV Life etc over joining a team in their own region? Apart from the experience of Korean culture you would go through of course?
- With #2, how many foreign progaming teams would actually be willing to side with a Korean progaming team? Sure we got the oGs-TLAF house but other than that, no progaming team has made any sort of presence in Korea except for perhaps Evil Geniuses when IdrA was in the GSL.
Personally, I think a better idea for improving the GSL would be.
- Dramatically increase the prize pool for Code A. Currently, you only earn the same amount for winning Code A as you do for getting knocked out of the first round of Code S. And if you ask me, while it may be arguably much harder to actually reach Code S status in the first place, it's still a lot harder to win Code A than it is to get knocked out of Code S if you ask me. Code A still has some very formiddable players like BoxeR, Jinro, MMA etc but the prize pool for Code A doesn't really feel like a good incentive at the moment.
- Rather than require teams to sign at least two foreign progamers in order to compete in the GSL, open up an exchange programme where foreign teams can agree to loan their players to Korean teams for GSL events.
- Drop the whole SC2 exclusivity deal and allow MBCGame and OnGameNet to establish televised StarCraft II leagues. That way, Koreans have more than one SC2 starleague at home to look forward to.
- Add the ability to view the stream with GOM Player as an option but provide flash SQ/HQ streams otherwise. MLG has partially done it, the NASL has done it, the IPL has done it, and nearly every other event has done it. Why not the GSL?
- Add a restream for American and European viewers like with the NASL. Either that or make the VODs ad supported and free in standard definition with an optional premium feature for HD VODs with no ads.
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just the results of GSTL semifinals tell you how stacked Korea is right now... If you are a foreigner and you see guys like DRG who aren't even in Code A yet, why would you give up the wide array of NA/EU tourneys in order to get kicked in the a** by DRG and get nothing in return?
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On May 18 2011 20:46 bkrow wrote:
Great read Xeris and an insightful point of view from a person your unique position. There are most certainly problems with the development of the Korean scene; GSL is the be all and end all of any SC2 competitive scene in Korea and it provides large limitations on anyones' desires to move to Korea with very little pay off.
I think the biggest thing to remember is how many BW tournaments are there outside Korea? How many "BW exchange" programs were there during its peak? The Korean scene is taking steps in the right direction. We have had Korean participation in a lot of foreigner events (IEM and NASL) which is a somewhat unprecedented occurence. As SC2 develops and the divergence between Korea and the foreigners reduces i am sure will we see bigger efforts made to integrate the two scenes.
Comparing to BW is silly though cause no one outside Korea was close to the skill needed to properly to compete. Back when there was foreigners who could compete, they were in Korea and did ok without help from the tournament organizers. Like the example of HayprO, how much more is Gretech expected to do to accommodate players who truthfully are not at the highest level? It's not their fault he can't be financially supported by his gaming, it's up to the teams.
Basically if players are good enough to seriously compete, they will likely get the financial support needed to be able to go to Korea if they wish and live just fine. But these ideas for fixing a supposed problem seem to be aimed at getting honestly weaker players in there. If someone cannot seriously compete then there's no point even going over there at all, so fixing this 'problem' really only applies to a very small number of players outside of Korea.
IdrA could have stayed in Korea just fine, and i'm sure anyone else that level can do as well. Why try and get players over there who cannot compete, just hoping that the team houses will get them good enough? set up foreign houses. Play all the foreign tournaments. If you are top or close of them, then you are in a position to go to Korea. If not - you have no business going there!
On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote:
Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
This is honestly a factor too. Makes me laugh when a player like Incontrol says he wouldn't go, when he's never been the caliber of player to compete over there at any point in time.
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If GSL wants foreign players, it has to come to them IMHO.
WCG and IEM has regional events held locally. Then 1 international showdown. I think this the best route. They would have to think about expanding their business overseas. Heck, MLG is already doing that.
Then the events like MLG and such are short. Then there's the seperation of Code A and S. Even if a Korean were to be in the MLG Open Bracket, he can still take the whole tourney instead of winning it and then waiting until the next event for a chance at the real money.
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On May 19 2011 02:59 DKo wrote:
I had some doubts but this makes it clear. I thought the expense of traveling to Korea for foreigners was fully paid by GSL. So basically, amateurs without sponsors who are fully capable of winning GSL have to invest a lot of money at a shot at it. That sucks.
In another note, I don't think Code S and Code A divisions should exist. It should just be a one big tournament giving everyone a shot at the finals of the entire thing.
Just saw this post; What the hell? What amateurs without sponsors are even close to capable of winning the GSL, and why should they pay for their flights..
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Eventually, there will be a big skill gap between the foreigners and the koreans.
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Idea:
The major American sports organisations like NBA, NFL and NHL share one very important trait with the Korean starcraft 2 scene.
1. Dominant position versus other leagues
> Native players want to play in Korean leagues
> Little interest in the foreigner scene
2.Static structure
> Once teams are established only economical troubles can force them out
My point is that with these similarities would it be possible to create a draft. Where foreign players each [arbitrary time period] can choose to apply for the Korean leagues. After the application process is over the Korean team can pick the available players. Like the American system the worst Korean pro-gaming team can then pick first and so on.
If this very sketchy idea was put into action team might have to have a cap on the rooster and that a greater emphasis was put on the teams. This idea needs further improvements and one step on the way could be that the teams had to use a foreigner in team matches. It could be that the Korean teams selected there best players to play in code A/S after determining the number of slots each team has during some kind of ranking mechanism.
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I really appreciated this post.
What I get from it is that the opportunities for competition in Korea for foreigners are really too narrow. There's basically just GSL Code S, and Code A is a chance to get into Code S. On the foreign scene, you have lots of competitions, so you can endure a slump. Fenix, for example, was disappointing last IEM but is doing very well in the NASL.
Some people have said that "only the very very best of the best should compete." This is a wrong mindset to grow e-sports as an industry. You need professional-level players who are great, middling, and even bad (for pro players!). Professional golf could not be an industry if the only person who could live off it was Tiger Woods. I'm sure lots of pro golfers aspire to play like Tiger Woods, but there's probably also some people who are happy that they're able to play a game they love for a living.
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On May 19 2011 05:34 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 20:46 bkrow wrote:
Great read Xeris and an insightful point of view from a person your unique position. There are most certainly problems with the development of the Korean scene; GSL is the be all and end all of any SC2 competitive scene in Korea and it provides large limitations on anyones' desires to move to Korea with very little pay off.
I think the biggest thing to remember is how many BW tournaments are there outside Korea? How many "BW exchange" programs were there during its peak? The Korean scene is taking steps in the right direction. We have had Korean participation in a lot of foreigner events (IEM and NASL) which is a somewhat unprecedented occurence. As SC2 develops and the divergence between Korea and the foreigners reduces i am sure will we see bigger efforts made to integrate the two scenes. Comparing to BW is silly though cause no one outside Korea was close to the skill needed to properly to compete. Back when there was foreigners who could compete, they were in Korea and did ok without help from the tournament organizers. Like the example of HayprO, how much more is Gretech expected to do to accommodate players who truthfully are not at the highest level? It's not their fault he can't be financially supported by his gaming, it's up to the teams. Basically if players are good enough to seriously compete, they will likely get the financial support needed to be able to go to Korea if they wish and live just fine. But these ideas for fixing a supposed problem seem to be aimed at getting honestly weaker players in there. If someone cannot seriously compete then there's no point even going over there at all, so fixing this 'problem' really only applies to a very small number of players outside of Korea. IdrA could have stayed in Korea just fine, and i'm sure anyone else that level can do as well. Why try and get players over there who cannot compete, just hoping that the team houses will get them good enough? set up foreign houses. Play all the foreign tournaments. If you are top or close of them, then you are in a position to go to Korea. If not - you have no business going there! Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote:
Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand). This is honestly a factor too. Makes me laugh when a player like Incontrol says he wouldn't go, when he's never been the caliber of player to compete over there at any point in time.
I agree with both these posts. I think that foreigners are giving themselves too much credit when they say 1400$ is not enough for winning code A when they are not even good enough to probably get past the second round. There are only a couple of players who stand a chance against the Koreans like Idra and the rest have no chance of getting into code S imo. If they truly were good enough, then progamers that play starcraft for a living would go to Korea and try to win 90k.
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A very well written article, and an enjoyable read as well. I agree with many of the points brought up, and would love to see the expansion of Esports globally 
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I think they should get rid of the Code S/A structure and instead just use one main tournament with 64 players, and one huge qualification tournament where everybody can play in. The bottom 32 of the big tournament will have to requalify, but get seeded into higher rounds of the qualification tournament. The MLG winner gets placed into the main tournament while the next best ones get high seeds in the qualification tournament as well. It's nearly the same in the end, but everybody who is capable enough can win the GSL in one big swoop.
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How bout the "foreigner" problem where the prize pools are so low (except NASL) where there is little incentive for koreans to come over.
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On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote:
Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there.
Koreans aren't exactly flying over here for 'easy money' either.
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What i really cant understand is, the most prestigious league by far is the GSL. Any progamer across the world should aim to win it, since that is what proves you are the best. If money is such a big issue then why play sc2 at all? just get a bad-decent job (depending where you live) and earn alot more.
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EPT
