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As sad as it sounds, I think Korea doesn't need foreigners. Yes, i, as a foreigner, really enjoy to cheer for any foreigner competing in the GSL but at the same time, why would GOM need to accommodate foreigners to participate in the GSL. It might give them a bit more viewers but i don't think they can still be a viable and expanding e-sports business without having foreigners in their tournament.
At the same time, E-sports is growing outside of Korea too. And that's a big reason why SC2 pro scene is different than SC1 and people easily forgets this. The next big thing could be elsewhere but it seems people are too focused about Korea since it all began there. Korea might be "The Mecca" of Starcraft and rightfully so but foreigners are a bit different than Koreans on practice routines, culture, etc and why would Korea need to accommodate us, the foreigners. No reason. So if pros want to go there, well just figure out a way to earn your code S status. Jinro, Idra and Huk have done it so why others couldn't. If it's too much of a sacrifice, then don't go. It's not just about the money but for pride and honor too. And we, as foreigners, tends to forget about this.
On another note, i agree that teams should get notified soon. That's the only legitimate complaint.
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it's pretty obvious that financially, you are against huge odds if you're trying to compete and win money in the korean scene as a foreigner.
the competition in korea is simply much much much stronger and competitive compared to the foreign scene. there's less minor tourneys and only one major tourney in korea so there's less chance to make money if you perform badly in one tournament in korea.
but in foreign countries, although the prize money is less usually, there are much more tournaments so people have a higher chance of earning more money competing in foreign tourneys because first there's more chances to compete, and second, the competition is much less skilled.
but that does not mean GomTV should make separate arrangements to forcibly accommodate more foreigners into the GSL by compromising quality (aka online tourneys);
no offense but GomTV has no obligation to do such a thing and that also applies to foreign tourneys; foreign tourneys also have no obligation to make separate arrangements to accommodate koreans.
so if you're wanting to see more foreigners in GSL but sad that you aren't seeing more, don't blame GomTV but rather, blame foreigners for not making it past qualifiers, the lack of abundance of tourneys in korea (due to blizzard's monopoly on gom), the abundance of cheap, less competitive tourneys outside of korea which makes it more financially tempting to foreign pros.
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The funny thing to me is that at most the players would miss like 1 decent size Lan by going to Korea. What they would miss most is online tourneys. Yet there's still people here who take online results seriously, like TSL and NASL. But apparently the lag from Korea is so bad its not even worth it for foreign pros to play online from there? Kinda puts that whole argument to rest doesnt it.
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On May 19 2011 12:09 antelope591 wrote:
The funny thing to me is that at most the players would miss like 1 decent size Lan by going to Korea. What they would miss most is online tourneys. Yet there's still people here who take online results seriously, like TSL and NASL. But apparently the lag from Korea is so bad its not even worth it for foreign pros to play online from there? Kinda puts that whole argument to rest doesnt it.
i dont think the koreans realised how bad it would be when they applied for tsl/nasl. also i think they also thought even if it is bad, we can just beat them anyway. Also, if you get used to the delay, its really quite playable.
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On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote:
Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there.
I totally agree, the negativity surrounding this is totally unwarranted. Its an all expenses paid trip to korea people with a seed into code a for 3 and a seed into code s for the winner of MLG. How can this be a bad thing in anyway. The only reason a foreigner wouldnt want to go is because they dont think they are good enough and even then it would be a great experience to have regardless its all expenses paid if you get knocked out in the first week you can go home no harm no foul or you can stay for the experience for a few weeks. Everyone keeps saying GSL is a month but from the first code a game to finals its really only 3 weeks max including up and down matches and the week break fromm code s for the finals. If you get far in code a then its worth it to stay, no matter what people say if you win code a and you still do coaching /online tournaments in korea, its still more than 90% of players are going to make of prize money in a month including maybe winning an online tournament are two (if you are that talented and would have done it anyways ) the extra 1,400 is going to probably put you ahead of alot of your foreign brethren. Also with the MLG exchange program its not like your ever going to miss an MLG, you participate in MLG get top 3 and go to korea for a month and have ample time to decide weather your going to stay for a month a go back in wich case you will be home for mlg, or if you get into code s GSL now makes time for MLG so you can travel to MLG like all the koreans are doing anyways.
Its not like there isnt any progamers that want to go to korea. Look at the Rakaka raod to korea tournament there were alot of the top players from sweden that wanted to go, the only prize was the trip to korea so they wouldnt have signed up if they didnt want to go and that trip wasnt even all expenses paid like the mlg exchange program is offering (it included plane ticket and accomadation at the gom house)
I honestly think any progamer that is free and doesnt have any prior engagements or commitments in their home country would be foolish (if there skill level is high) to no go and try out korea for a month , worst case scenario you lose in the first round and you got a free trip to korea and you leave a week or so after you got there, does that sound as terrible as everyone is trying to make it out to be? lol im so suprised at the amount of people that are trying to turn this amazing opportunity into a negative one.
Its an all expenses paid vacation at the very least, and if you are good a great opportunity to play with the best players in the world in the best tournament in the world with the biggest prize pool.
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On May 19 2011 12:16 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 12:09 antelope591 wrote:
The funny thing to me is that at most the players would miss like 1 decent size Lan by going to Korea. What they would miss most is online tourneys. Yet there's still people here who take online results seriously, like TSL and NASL. But apparently the lag from Korea is so bad its not even worth it for foreign pros to play online from there? Kinda puts that whole argument to rest doesnt it. i dont think the koreans realised how bad it would be when they applied for tsl/nasl. also i think they also thought even if it is bad, we can just beat them anyway. Also, if you get used to the delay, its really quite playable.
Even if it is bad, July Ace moon sen and boxer are doing really well in the NASL, i would argue they would probably all be closer to the top if the lag wasnt there, but all they have to do is make it to the top 16 then they can accert their true domination. So if a foreigner goes over there its not like they wont beable to compete in these events and not have a chance and like i said if they lose in the first round they can pack up and go home, otherwise its worth it to stay for a chance at code s, if you get into code s and even just stay middle of the pack your gonna make more money then 90% of foreigners and you can still travel to most major lans.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37099 Posts
I think the biggest issue here is, Korea just doesn't seem to understand what foreigners have to go through, And as horrible as it may sound, I think they just don't really care for them as much as they do for Koreans.
It's not just Korea, pretty much every country will take care of THEIR country's people. But when other countries get involved, it's like "awesome, we will help u as much as we can (without actually helping.)" So........ yeah....... Korea needs to step it up and make it better for foreigners.
Also..... I don't like this straight to Code S invite idea. I think Code S should be earned. The way it is being done now.
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On May 19 2011 12:16 L3g3nd_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 12:09 antelope591 wrote:
The funny thing to me is that at most the players would miss like 1 decent size Lan by going to Korea. What they would miss most is online tourneys. Yet there's still people here who take online results seriously, like TSL and NASL. But apparently the lag from Korea is so bad its not even worth it for foreign pros to play online from there? Kinda puts that whole argument to rest doesnt it. i dont think the koreans realised how bad it would be when they applied for tsl/nasl. also i think they also thought even if it is bad, we can just beat them anyway. Also, if you get used to the delay, its really quite playable.
Yeah but my point is if it IS playable then the making no money in Korea argument doesn't exist because a foreigner who's there can still participate in any tournament that might be going on at the same time as GSL since pretty much all of them are online.
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Online tourney --> Code S . QED
Code A can stay live as the main Code S supplier, but the online tourney can supply additional few slot(s).
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On May 19 2011 11:46 CustomKal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote:
Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that. I think Thorzain actually would be a perfect candidate for competing in the GSL. He's the kind of player who thrives when given time to prepare for his games, and that's one of the great things about the GSL and why the competition is good. In a small tournament there can be some pretty horrible sets, because they don't have any time to prepare and have to cram in as many games in a day as they do.
You're missing his point, we're assuming Thorzains skill off 1 online tournament, he has no other results to back him up. While he may be very skilled, he still needs more time to establish himself in the scene.
edit: My 2 cents. Many foreigners are not going to Korea because they know they don't stand a chance at winning. If they do stand a chance, it's very very slim. Other than personal issues related to health, family, etc., there's no reason why anyone should stay away from Korea, other than the fact that they know they can't keep up.
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On May 19 2011 13:01 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 11:46 CustomKal wrote:On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote:
Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that. I think Thorzain actually would be a perfect candidate for competing in the GSL. He's the kind of player who thrives when given time to prepare for his games, and that's one of the great things about the GSL and why the competition is good. In a small tournament there can be some pretty horrible sets, because they don't have any time to prepare and have to cram in as many games in a day as they do. You're missing his point, we're assuming Thorzains skill off 1 online tournament, he has no other results to back him up. While he may be very skilled, he still needs more time to establish himself in the scene. edit: My 2 cents. Many foreigners are not going to Korea because they know they don't stand a chance at winning. If they do stand a chance, it's very very slim. Other than personal issues related to health, family, etc., there's no reason why anyone should stay away from Korea, other than the fact that they know they can't keep up.
But i feel like that's the exact point everyone's trying to make. To go to Korea, fight through code A, and basically WIN code S, you have to have a LOT going for you (either be retardedly better than everyone, which hasn't happened for anyone yet, or get a few good matchups, maybe a little luck in your play), you're going to lose money.
You're going to lose money because you're going to be spending all your time preparing for ONE offline tournament, and not worrying about the dozen online ones that happen in NA / EUR every week. just because you have the potential to win 100k won, doesn't mean that the payout for you giving up all the chances you have in the west is going to be worth it.
I feel like it's a lot to gamble on, because even if you ARE better than the rest of the field, you might have an off day or something on one of the early rounds, and boom. you're done.
Nobody plays perfect 100% of the time. You are never guaranteed to win the GSL (code A or S for that matter). So it's a lot safer for teams to funnel their players into all these online tournaments that are constantly popping up, since travel expenses are near zero, and they can participate in several at the same time.
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Excellent points. I will spend some time to ponder this during my moments of reflection.
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Didn't incontrol say his skill doubled while in Korea? Maybe players should look at it as training so they can win a lot more when they get back.
I think if blizzard got cross continent lag sorted out so it was the same level as broodwar almost all problems would be solved wouldn't it? Then online cups wouldn't be much problem and they are scheduling around MLG.
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Great read. I love this whole intertwining of the foreign and korean e-sports scene. Trouble stated here aside, I'm very much looking forward to how it plays out and what develops over the next few years.
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a good read... nice perspective on the issue of going to korea as opposed to just "we don't like living over there esports is booming in the west kekeke"
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IMO this is just ok since Korea is the Mecca of SC, until there are other places that can contest this. This gives it an aura of prestige and mystique, as it should not be something people can do just when they want to do and maybe even out of luck. It has to be a product of hardwork.
But I agree in having Code As online. While were at it, why dont we have more rigid qualifications for Code S so that it really means something, like being SClass in BW, and not just a titular degree that anyone can have.
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On May 19 2011 13:18 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 13:01 rysecake wrote:On May 19 2011 11:46 CustomKal wrote:On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote:
Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that. I think Thorzain actually would be a perfect candidate for competing in the GSL. He's the kind of player who thrives when given time to prepare for his games, and that's one of the great things about the GSL and why the competition is good. In a small tournament there can be some pretty horrible sets, because they don't have any time to prepare and have to cram in as many games in a day as they do. You're missing his point, we're assuming Thorzains skill off 1 online tournament, he has no other results to back him up. While he may be very skilled, he still needs more time to establish himself in the scene. edit: My 2 cents. Many foreigners are not going to Korea because they know they don't stand a chance at winning. If they do stand a chance, it's very very slim. Other than personal issues related to health, family, etc., there's no reason why anyone should stay away from Korea, other than the fact that they know they can't keep up. But i feel like that's the exact point everyone's trying to make. To go to Korea, fight through code A, and basically WIN code S, you have to have a LOT going for you (either be retardedly better than everyone, which hasn't happened for anyone yet, or get a few good matchups, maybe a little luck in your play), you're going to lose money. You're going to lose money because you're going to be spending all your time preparing for ONE offline tournament, and not worrying about the dozen online ones that happen in NA / EUR every week. just because you have the potential to win 100k won, doesn't mean that the payout for you giving up all the chances you have in the west is going to be worth it. I feel like it's a lot to gamble on, because even if you ARE better than the rest of the field, you might have an off day or something on one of the early rounds, and boom. you're done. Nobody plays perfect 100% of the time. You are never guaranteed to win the GSL (code A or S for that matter). So it's a lot safer for teams to funnel their players into all these online tournaments that are constantly popping up, since travel expenses are near zero, and they can participate in several at the same time.
Your acting like its alot of money they are missing out on but really it isnt. They can still participate in NASL koreans do it and most of them are doing fine. All the other smaller online tournaments dont really amount to much, look at the tournament round up besides when a big tournament is happening or happened the top dog usually has between 1-2k. THAT IS THE TOP DOG! thats 1 person the rest are sitting anywhere fromm 600-1000. Thats not really missing out on much, sure tournament round up happens every two weeks, but its not like your gonna be the top dog every 2 weeks, or your gonna make that constantly, thats 1 person out of 100's of pro gamers participating in tournaments.
People keep saying your missing out on so much in terms of online tournaments, but all that is just potential income , the potential income of the gsl is more than all of these smaller tournaments combined over a period of months. Obviously your chances of winning a smaller tournament here and there are greater than winning the GSL, but if you get into code s, if your consistently making it out of the round of 32 (or even not sometimes) your going to be making more than the top dog in the west. Also remember gsl happens over 3 weeks not a month, and if you dont do well or get knocked out early you can return home a week after you got there, it was all expenses paid no harm no foul, you get far in the tournament, then obviously its worth it to stay, and if you dont make it into code s who cares, its only 3 weeks where MAYBE you would have won a smaller online tournament or 2 maybe....
For people who are in good positions in the NASL right now (skilled players) it isnt going to be a huge deal for them to compete over there and get a chance at code S. Either way it doesnt really matter because NASL will be over by the time the next GSL starts and nobody has any idea when the next one is going to start. Defenetly for the next GSL in July its probably a perfect time to go, IPL will probably be close to being over or already over meaning at worst there are 2-4 players that IPL applies to ( its a 32 person tournament if im not mistaken its not going to take months) and NASL will be over all your going to miss out on is smaller online tournaments, and your never going to miss MLG's because you will have just completed your MLG and then you will be off to korea , there is a conflict with the super tournament sort of but that only happens once a year.
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Thanks for your clarification.
I do believe that if GOM had a studio let's say in the US and EU, programming their match in that type of control environment and live between NA/EU and KR players it could be really nice. The server location would decide the time plan (3-4am for the NA maybe), but still a online + local studio, that could be a nice idea~
GSL / GOM could benefit from local sponsor as well, increasing their impact in term of advertissement and expanding globally in a more realistic way, not just exchanging players.
Just a small suggestion~
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I would really like to see them make the up/down groups have 4 people, with 1 foreign/other seed as the 4th person in the group.
This wouldn't be a seed directly into Code S, but a half-decent shot at it, with an assured Code A run if they lose.
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I don't understand the title, the problem with Korea, why is Korea a problem? Why do people use words such as "problem" to describe the state of SC2?
Korean ladder has more players with higher skill level. Korean fan base is much more prevalent and more devoted. These are all obvious facts, they are not problems by any means. If you want something like that to happen in any other countries, you have to raise the awareness of e-sports. You need to change the nerdy culture and increase your fan base.
Instead of bashing Korea's environment for foreigners, why not think of something constructive for your corresponding region?
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EPT
