I'll shed some light on the situation, from the perspective of a team leader for a major team, and I'm sure many other teams/organizations/players outside of Korea share the same thought. This article is in response to the GSL Super Tournament Thread, and the PlayXP article about Needing More Foreigners in Korea:
The "Korean" Problem
I'll start off by saying that the title may not be appropriate, but I couldn't think of a better name for it.
The GSL Super Tournament was recently announced, and it was to the community's dismay that only two non Korean players will be participating. This is by choice, there were many foreign players who were invited -- but they all chose not to go. There are several reasons for this, which I will explain. Next, I will go into a bit of detail as to what I believe is the problem, and potentially, how it can be fixed.
GSL Super Tournament
The Super Tournament is a one month long affair. It begins the week of MLG Columbus. This in itself presents a problem, and GOM tried to fix it by saying "we'll let you play your first round match, then play in MLG, then continue the tournament." The caveat is, GOM does not pay for any of the flights. So think about it: any non Korean's flight cost to Korea is $1,200 - $1,800 most likely. You need a ticket to Korea, then to MLG, and then back to Korea. That's almost $3,000 in flight cost, not to count the massive amount of jet lag that will result and more than likely lead to poor enough play to have anyone who would dare to go through that journey be eliminated early from both tournaments.
The second problem is that foreign players were notified of the tournament just about a week and a half ago. Moving to Korea is no small task, there are a LOT of things a team needs to do in order to make a trip to Korea. Funding this trip isn't a simple task, letters and proposals need to be written to sponsors in order to secure extra funding, flights and possibly VISAS need to be arranged, and a plan needs to be planned and executed. The fact that GOM notified foreign players basically three weeks before they would need to actually go to Korea leaves teams and organizations a VERY limited time to make accommodations. Personally, this is why Fnatic decided not to send its players -- we didn't receive enough advance notice to get everything ready.
The same thing happened for the GSL World Championships. Everything was so rushed and felt "last minute," and we didn't get enough out of the trip.
Sure it's amazing to see foreigners in Korea, and everyone loved all the footage of the pros at the GOM house practicing and having fun, but spectators don't get to see or know about the behind the scenes organizational stuff that makes working with GOM and getting people to Korea really difficult.
What can GOM do to help?
Notify teams/players far in advance, for starters. If today I got an email from GOM saying that they wanted to include some non Korean teams in the July/August version of the GSTL, it would be really easy for Fnatic to send a team of 4-5 people. Since going to Korea is such a huge move, teams really need more than a few weeks of notice. If we are given 1, 2, or even 3 months of advance notice, I can almost guarantee you'd be seeing more foreign players in the GSL Super Tournament and other future events.
Why are the foreigners leaving Korea
It's way too difficult to live the Korean life unless you are in Code S. The journey to qualify for Code S is not worth the time and energy it would take to have players live there. Yes, GOM has a "foreign" house, so players wouldn't have to worry about housing, but there are so many other factors to consider: acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. A player who doesn't have good practice partners or schedules will not be successful in Korea. The GOM house doesn't provide this. The house is made available, and then players are left to their own devices to practice.
Most of the Korean pro houses are full -- I know because when discussing sending Fnatic players to Korea, the major problem was where/how would the players get good training. We looked into moving into pro houses, but most are full. Spending a lot of money to send people to live in Korea just to practice on the Korean ladder is not productive.
The next big problem is that you have to make a lot of sacrifices by living in Korea. In order to play in any foreign events, you have to wake up at 3-4am to participate, unless you play in the few that make crazy schedule allowances for players in Korea. When you factor in: the amount of time it takes getting used to being in Korea and the lack of good practice, prospects look grim. Why sacrifice playing in almost every European/NA event for working through several months to have a shot at getting to Code S? Think of Haypro for example (this is purely speculative about his actual mindset/decisionmaking): he could probably win a majority of the weekly cups on EU/NA -- which could net him probably $500 per week if he was really proactive (or more, just look at the Tournament Wrap Up Threads). That looks pretty appealing to me rather than continuously trying to go through Code A, which is insanely difficult to win.
Why don't foreign players come to Korea?
The reasons are very similar to what I listed above. Even the GSL/MLG "exchange" program is not going to work. Assuming that non Korean players actually win MLG now, very few of them would actually volunteer to go to Korea as evidenced by the most recent State of the Game episode. Again: giving up playing in European and American events, living in a house of people you don't know and a brand new culture, and needing at least 2-3 GSL events to even be in good enough shape to have a shot at Code S (you're looking at a 6 month commitment to have a realistic shot at doing well in any Korean event)... why would anyone but the most die-hard, such as Jinro and HuK, make that decision. They wouldn't.
What can GOM do to help?
In my opinion there are two potential solutions here.
1) Make Code A an online tournament. If it was online, foreign participation would increase dramatically. It doesn't even need to be an open system, it could be done entirely on application and GOM could accept only the best/most qualified foreigners who apply. It could also be done during Korean hours and on the Korean server; this could be somewhat of a bittersweet revenge for Koreans, let the foreigners play at 3-4am for a change! This would work because foreigners would only have to worry about going to Korea if they qualified for Code S.
2) Invite foreigners directly into Code S. A good exchange program would be to invite a first placed foreign player at MLG to Code S. This way there is a huge incentive now for a foreigner to actually go to Korea. In fact, as mentioned on State of the Game, a direct Code S invite does appeal a lot more to foreign pros than a Code A invite. This way, you actually get foreigners to Korea -- if they lose in Code S, they might be more tempted to stick around to play through Code A to qualify again for Code S. Getting them directly into Code S is sort of like a "foot in the door" method and might increase the chances of foreigner retention in Korea.
What else?
Korea is amazing. I've watched all the GSL final events, and love them. The foreign fans love the Korean tournaments. If the GSL wants to become truly global however, more concessions need to be made to make the highest echelons more accessible to foreign players. It can't be a one way street. So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
If Koreans are continuously invited to foreign events and don't have to qualify, there will be no real incentive for Koreans to give any concessions to foreign players. I'm in no position to gauge the attitude or mindset of the people being GOM/GSL's decisionmaking, but I truly believe that by opening up their tournament format and making it more friendly to foreign players, the GSL will truly achieve its mission statement and be THE global Starcraft 2 tournament.
They have made strides by opening up a foreign house, helping to cover costs for the GOM World Championships, and with the idea of the exchange program, but more needs to be done. I think with enough feedback, commentary, and communication with GOM, we can help bridge the gap between Korea and the World, not just in terms of skill, but also in terms of events.
I think they perhaps should put some more effort into the foreign house or start some collaboration so that foreigners could get into the correct and more challenging practise conditions.
I'll highly agree with the online tourney (especially doing it on their turf and times :D), but it may raise a huge outcry on legitimacy by some groups.
I think it's not a bad thing that GOM hasn't done everything yet. It's been 5 months into the year, about 8 months after the GSL was created, and GOM has done so much. And the korean internet groups appear to be clamoring for foreign participation of their own players, and foreign participation in the GSL. So what I am saying is that I believe it will come in time.
2) Invite foreigners directly into Code S. A good exchange program would be to invite a first placed foreign player at MLG to Code S. This way there is a huge incentive now for a foreigner to actually go to Korea. In fact, as mentioned on State of the Game, a direct Code S invite does appeal a lot more to foreign pros than a Code A invite. This way, you actually get foreigners to Korea -- if they lose in Code S, they might be more tempted to stick around to play through Code A to qualify again for Code S. Getting them directly into Code S is sort of like a "foot in the door" method and might increase the chances of foreigner retention in Korea.
Dunno bout the rest but isn't this happening? Future MLG winners go straight to code S?
Oh my god, please, no. I'd really like the GSL to become more "Global", but not at the price of quality. A big part of the awesomeness of GSL is due to the factor that it is not online (yea blabla no LAN mode, you know what I mean), and I don't want people to be seeded into Code S because if you're not able to qualify for it, you don't belong there.
Thanks for the insight about the supertournament , it was really hard for me to understand why no player wanted to go. Concerning the invites , their is 1 code S spot for the winner of MLG , and 4 code A spots for the top4 non korean.
the problem is there arent other tournaments apart from gsl in korea so if a player is knocked out early they hav to wait for the next gsl which is usually in a months time
On May 18 2011 05:09 Xeris wrote: It's a Code A invite, unless I'm horribly mistaken...
Hey Habit!!
My understanding is that this MLG is only like 3 Code A invites, but future MLGs will be winner gets Code S + a few Code As.
Can someone clarify?
yes, that's correct. for MLGs after columbus, 1st place will go into code S. the next 3 players if 1st place is non-korean or next 4 players is 1st place is korean will have a spot in code A.
nice writeup xeris, i'd send this to torch/junkka,/chae jungwon if i were you. while it helps us to understand, it would help them to improve.
Yes, only the winners will be sent to Code S. Xeris, I thought everything you said was blatantly obvious yet GOM doesn't seem to understand this. We know their intentions are good, but there are many reasons why many of the top foreigners will continue to pass on GOM's opportunities.
I can definantly understand players and teams perspective when they look at korea vs non-korean tournaments.
I mean to be honest the number of big tournaments and the potential income you can get from playing non-korean tournaments far outweights the ONE small chance you have of placing high in the most stacked league in the world - GSL code S.
So yeah, there's really no reason to play in korea anymore - you're actually missing out on more than you gain from being there. Just mindlessly practicing on the korean ladder will only get you so far, its not enough of a reason to travel all the way over there. Lets not even talk about code A.
Foreign scene has never been this strong and its only getting stronger. Since GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 in korea for 2 years, it will be a few years before Korea can retake its position as the place to be for any player. Assuming OGN and MBC actually does something with SC2.
On May 18 2011 05:09 Xeris wrote: It's a Code A invite, unless I'm horribly mistaken...
Hey Habit!!
All 3 foreign seeds get Code A for Columbus since Code S players are already set. After Columbus they will add the top foreigner directly into Code S.
this isn't quite true. only the top finisher who is not already in code S gets a code S seed, regardless of whether that person is korean or a foreigner
Online code A wouldn't be as good to watch, definitely would not be worth that. It wouldn't make sense to dump the show they have in favor of getting laggy games from people around the world. Also I think it is the winner of MLG who gets a code S spot.
On May 18 2011 05:09 Xeris wrote: It's a Code A invite, unless I'm horribly mistaken...
Hey Habit!!
My understanding is that this MLG is only like 3 Code A invites, but future MLGs will be winner gets Code S + a few Code As.
Can someone clarify?
yes, that's correct. for MLGs after columbus, 1st place will go into code S. the next 3 players if 1st place is non-korean or next 4 players is 1st place is korean will have a spot in code A.
nice writeup xeris, i'd send this to torch/junkka,/chae jungwon if i were you. while it helps us to understand, it would help them to improve.
Ah okay, I didn't know that 1st place (after Columbus) gets a Code S spot. BUT, I still don't think this is enough. After Columbus, you'll probably have 6-7 Koreans instead of 4. There is a high probability that a Korean will win MLG as long as Koreans are still attending. So the Code S spot could realistically go to a Korean every single season. Especially given that 1st gets into Code S, you could likely see a LOT of Koreans go just for the Code S chance (play for 1 month in Code A, or play for 3 days and get Code S).
On May 18 2011 05:13 StarStruck wrote: Yes, only the winners will be sent to Code S. Xeris, I thought everything you said was blatantly obvious yet GOM doesn't seem to understand this. We know their intentions are good, but there are many reasons why many of the top foreigners will continue to pass on GOM's opportunities.
They don't necessarily not understand, it's just not a simple problem to solve. Making Code A prize money better would help a lot, but money doesn't grow on trees. I'm not sure there's enough money there to do it, while maintaining the Code S prestige.
Stuff like online Code A has pretty huge problems too...not least that lag to Korea is so bad that frankly no one would really qualify anyway.
Great write-up Xeris, it's good to get the point of view from someone behind the scenes of one of the big teams. I agree with a lot of your points too.
It would be wonderful to see some big names from the foreigner community in Korea, but it just doesn't make sense logistically or economically for anybody that doesn't feel they have a sure shot at Code S (IdrA) to go through with it. Even then, being stuck in Korea for a month with only the one tournament might not make it worth it.
I'm not sure if you addressed that and I just missed it, but would adding more big tournaments in Korea help this problem? I.E. Giving players something to do if they get eliminated from the GSL early or during the downtime between matches. As it is, it's pretty unforgiving to be knocked out in the first round and have nothing to do but practice until the next season.
The top player of any nation who does not have code S already after columbus will get code S. (unless the top 3 have code S) I wonder if we'll see teams find the money to send a bunch of players to try and get that prize.
I think an invite into code S would send a lot of players and Korean people into a rage, Code A is a proving ground to Code S and having a few foreigners go into Code S just because they're not Korean kinda sounds like special treatment, which i feel should not be the case.
How ever, i do feel that the winner of MLG could win a spot into a pro house that would benefit the player and also Gom trying to get foreigners into the GSL
lol no, thats not the problem with Korea. Code A can't be online or that will lead to even more problems. Code A needs to have more prize money to make it worth the investment for non-koreans and there needs to be more smaller tourneys other than GSL for koreans and non-koreans alike.
lol foreigners always need to qualify for korean tourneys but not the other way around? what about the super tournament/GSL world, did foreigners need qualy for that? invitations for foreigners to Code S regular season which is a league not a tournament? lol. i guess you want invitations to GSTL too.
some cultures are so about free handouts and ppl not wanting to work hard to move up from a disadvantaged position. yeah sure you're gonna have to work harder than koreans to get where koreans are, live with it. no affirmative action, no welfare, no employment benefits, no1 to hold your hand, crawl up yourself from the bottom of the mountain and lay waste to korean corpses as you make your way to the top
On May 18 2011 05:20 Xeris wrote: Ah okay, I didn't know that 1st place (after Columbus) gets a Code S spot. BUT, I still don't think this is enough. After Columbus, you'll probably have 6-7 Koreans instead of 4. There is a high probability that a Korean will win MLG as long as Koreans are still attending. So the Code S spot could realistically go to a Korean every single season. Especially given that 1st gets into Code S, you could likely see a LOT of Koreans go just for the Code S chance (play for 1 month in Code A, or play for 3 days and get Code S).
It all depends how many of the players invited aren't in Code S, doesn't it? I mean, Bomber or Losira could well stomp all over MLG, but they don't get Code S since they're there already.."all" a foreigner has to do is place higher than the non-Code S Koreans. Still difficult, but I think eminently achievable.
I think in the end this means that "Code S" material players get Code S, no matter their nationality. If foreigners simply aren't good enough to compete in Code S, then that's a whole other matter.
On May 18 2011 05:24 coolcor wrote: The top player of any nation who does not have code S already after columbus will get code S. (unless the top 3 have code S) I wonder if we'll see teams find the money to send a bunch of players to try and get that prize.
We might see a ton of Koreans going to MLG to try and get Code S. The more Koreans at MLG, the less chance a foreigner has of winning and getting Code S. However, I think having 30 Koreans at MLG would be fun :p
I do think more tournaments in Korea would possibly solve the problem. I think if Korea had all the monthly tournaments and mini LAN events so foreigners could have things to play in / money to win, it'd help a lot.
Didnt know the korean pro houses were full, i guess that explains alot. Since most of Artosis's videos from the houses they say that theyre/were looking for foreign players.
It really is such a shame that so few foreigners are in Korea
GOM are usually pretty smart about the changes they make, I'm sure they will think about something. About the code A/S, I think the foreigner spots will be in closed circuit. (that mean no up and down for the loser of code S, he'll just get replaced with the next MLG winner or something like that, so that foreigners that lose will be able to just go back to their country, so that makes it a win/win situation : either they win and get money and incentive to stay, or they lose and go back directly, I'm speculating here but that's the only solution that make sense)
Online code A will never happen, GSL is LIVE, they don't want lag screen or anything silly happening imo. Or cheating.
The full schedule for gomtv's leagues was already released LAST YEAR. It detailed every league, every GSTL, super tournament, prizes, etc. You know well ahead of time when the events were happening.
The major problem with Korea is simply: Korean players are too competitive for foreign players to make good money. Idra stayed in Korea for several seasons, never reaching the semi-finals. Outside of Korea he can bank on winning multiple tournaments and events easily. Simply put, Koreans > foreigners. All the other factors outside of absolute skill and ability to win are barriers that can be overcome. Idra was able to overcome them, but he still couldn't win.
On May 18 2011 05:24 coolcor wrote: The top player of any nation who does not have code S already after columbus will get code S. (unless the top 3 have code S) I wonder if we'll see teams find the money to send a bunch of players to try and get that prize.
We might see a ton of Koreans going to MLG to try and get Code S. The more Koreans at MLG, the less chance a foreigner has of winning and getting Code S. However, I think having 30 Koreans at MLG would be fun :p
I do think more tournaments in Korea would possibly solve the problem. I think if Korea had all the monthly tournaments and mini LAN events so foreigners could have things to play in / money to win, it'd help a lot.
Too bad there are practically no tournaments in Korea asides the GSL.
The only reason a foreigner would go to Korea to compete as of now is to fight for the prestige of winning / placing high in the toughest tournament in the world. There is absolutely no monetary incentives for a foreigner to go to Korea, since it is much easier to make money in the more frequent / less harrowing tournaments and weekly cups outside Korea. In theory, this situation can fix itself, since the higher money incentives outside Korea will drive up the competition there, until the skill : money ratio reaches a equilibrium both in Korea and outside Korea. Not saying that will actually happen, since there are a lot of other factors to consider.
On May 18 2011 05:24 coolcor wrote: The top player of any nation who does not have code S already after columbus will get code S. (unless the top 3 have code S) I wonder if we'll see teams find the money to send a bunch of players to try and get that prize.
We might see a ton of Koreans going to MLG to try and get Code S. The more Koreans at MLG, the less chance a foreigner has of winning and getting Code S. However, I think having 30 Koreans at MLG would be fun :p
I do think more tournaments in Korea would possibly solve the problem. I think if Korea had all the monthly tournaments and mini LAN events so foreigners could have things to play in / money to win, it'd help a lot.
Too bad there are practically no tournaments in Korea asides the GSL.
And it all boils down to The GOM TV monopoly.
Which may end up not being a monopoly now that Kespa and Blizz has struck a deal.
It would be nice for foreign players if the prize pool for Code A was larger instead of a direct invite to Code S
Even more important I think, is there are not enough events in Korea.
In Korea, SC2, there is one major tournament, the GSL. For NA alone, we have NASL, IPL, MLG. And because NA is so large, there are a ton of online tournaments. In korea, most of the population is located in Seoul, so there are not as many online tournaments. Maybe because SC2 is so new, but SC1 generally has the proleague, OSL, MSL that is ongoing. There just needs to be more events.
The funny thing is, you think some korean would go to MLG on their own. Like they would pay 1800$ + 300$ hotel + expenses to win 5000$. Why don't you ask to MLG to up their prize pool so that koreans have incentive to come and play ?
It seems like the real problem is that the Code A/S tournament is a month long. Spending a whole month to maybe get into Code S and make a couple thousand bucks is just not worth it to most people. People are flying all over the place to play in other tournaments but the difference with those are that they're short--a day or a weekend. If just the Code A was a week long (played near the end of Code S), I'm sure a lot of foreigners would try then.
On May 18 2011 05:26 Bluerain wrote: some cultures are so about free handouts and ppl not wanting to work hard to move up from a disadvantaged position. yeah sure you're gonna have to work harder than koreans to get where koreans are, live with it.
On May 18 2011 05:26 Bluerain wrote: lol no, thats not the problem with Korea. Code A can't be online or that will lead to even more problems. Code A needs to have more prize money to make it worth the investment for non-koreans and there needs to be more smaller tourneys other than GSL for koreans and non-koreans alike.
lol foreigners always need to qualify for korean tourneys but not the other way around? what about the super tournament/GSL world, did foreigners need qualy for that? invitations for foreigners to Code S regular season which is a league not a tournament? lol. i guess you want invitations to GSTL too.
some cultures are so about free handouts and ppl not wanting to work hard to move up from a disadvantaged position. yeah sure you're gonna have to work harder than koreans to get where koreans are, live with it. no affirmative action, no welfare, no employment benefits, no1 to hold your hand, crawl up yourself from the bottom of the mountain and lay waste to korean corpses as you make your way to the top
I think this is a great point. Putting stuff online creates even more problems, especially for the way GSL does their broadcasting. It would be a horrible decision for GOM to do these things. The biggest problem with Korea doesn't lie with GOM, it lies with the fact there is nothing other than GOM.
The reason foreigners do so well financially in NA and Europe is because they can supplement their wages with lots of prize winnings. They have IEM, MLG, Dreamhack, TSL (though this is a more global thing), and those are only the BIG ones. There are a numerous other "smaller" tournaments with big prize pools, weekly, monthly and daily tournaments as well.
Korea on the other hand has the GSL. And to a lesser extent FXOpens, and Stars Wars, but those are few and far between. I think it's ridiculous to expect GOM to break their backs, because that's what it would be doing to them, to accommodate foreign teams and players. It's up to the korean starcraft scene to make it easier for foreigners to win money in Korea. If you can make the GSL you're pretty much set, but if you can't there needs to be something else for you to do to make money in the meantime.
If foreign teams want to go to Korea I don't think onus should be on GOMTV to care of them. That's their own responsibilities. That's what TL did, and that's what WE did. They reached out and made connections to make sure their players would be taken care of and had opportunities to succeed. That being said, the only way to support yourself if you're a pro in korea and you're not in Code S is to be sponsored right now, and that's a shame, but the reality.
Maybe with the new Kespa and Blizzard/Gretech agreement their will be some opportunity to expand SC2, and create more opportunities to support oneself through gaming. It's really up to Koreans now.
I agree with most of what all the top pros have said that they wouldn't waste there time for a code a spot, however it is a great opportunity for someone that wants to go to korea or was planning on already making an attempt to get into code a.
This is why I laughed at seeing players being offered Code A slots. Code S for the winner is fine, but why would anyone who posts good results in the NA/EU tourneys go to Korea to participate in a month long tourney with subpar prize money for the chance to get Code S is beyond me.
Too much sacrifice for the low probable gain. I guess you would get a boost in popularity, but not much more.
Not to mention all the issues Xeris pointed out in terms of practice/culture etc etc. Also the factors of getting acclimated to playing on stage, staying to in a differnet country for an extended period of time, especially when you dont know the language is tough enough without trying to perform in high pressure tourneys.
Living as a foreigner in a strange land is frightening and can do quite a number on your mental state. Learning the language, making sense of the new culture, transportation, etc. Hence I agree that advance notice is enormous, and I really hope GOMTV learns this lesson and even more importantly, this fact is stressed to the organizers. At the same time, part of me also feels that this is something which is straightforward, and maybe a bit inconsiderate of GOMTV.
Here's my comment on the Code S thing. Actually, I do feel that foreigners did indeed get a pass into Code S in previous GSL seasons. It's already happened, so I'm a little confused on "invite foreigners directly into Code S" comment.
At the same time, just slogging through to reach Code A, and fighting through Code A to reach Code S, is hell. So thinking along those lines...it's not hard to consider the thoughts of a native Korean, when he sees foreigners being placed directly into Code S. We need to spur as much international competition as possible to keep things lively, interesting, attract maximum viewers, but at the same time, be fair to everyone concerned.
In terms of seeking more practice partners, this is a complex problem. Maybe we need some form of team practice mergers or something like that. This is tough because there may be internal team strats that the players want to keep closer to their chest, or just within their own teams.
On May 18 2011 05:31 vnlegend wrote: The full schedule for gomtv's leagues was already released LAST YEAR. It detailed every league, every GSTL, super tournament, prizes, etc. You know well ahead of time when the events were happening.
The major problem with Korea is simply: Korean players are too competitive for foreign players to make good money. Idra stayed in Korea for several seasons, never reaching the semi-finals. Outside of Korea he can bank on winning multiple tournaments and events easily. Simply put, Koreans > foreigners. All the other factors outside of absolute skill and ability to win are barriers that can be overcome. Idra was able to overcome them, but he still couldn't win.
Just because they released a schedule many months ago is kinda irrelevant to working with foreigners on actually coming to Korea.
On May 18 2011 05:34 GhostFall wrote: It would be nice for foreign players if the prize pool for Code A was larger instead of a direct invite to Code S
Even more important I think, is there are not enough events in Korea.
In Korea, SC2, there is one major tournament, the GSL. For NA alone, we have NASL, IPL, MLG. And because NA is so large, there are a ton of online tournaments. In korea, most of the population is located in Seoul, so there are not as many online tournaments. Maybe because SC2 is so new, but SC1 generally has the proleague, OSL, MSL that is ongoing. There just needs to be more events.
Yes, there are a lot of tourneys in NA. But the whole sum of all NA prizepool in a year isn't even half of GSL prizepool (which is like 2 millions $ a year).
>he could probably win a majority of the weekly cups on EU/NA
No, he couldn't. Look at his play. Look at Zerg statistics. It's 500 to 1000 players every time with a ton of BO1s. GL getting through that as as Zerg.
Maybe NesTea could win consistently as Zerg in those cups.
On May 18 2011 05:34 GhostFall wrote: It would be nice for foreign players if the prize pool for Code A was larger instead of a direct invite to Code S
Even more important I think, is there are not enough events in Korea.
In Korea, SC2, there is one major tournament, the GSL. For NA alone, we have NASL, IPL, MLG. And because NA is so large, there are a ton of online tournaments. In korea, most of the population is located in Seoul, so there are not as many online tournaments. Maybe because SC2 is so new, but SC1 generally has the proleague, OSL, MSL that is ongoing. There just needs to be more events.
Yes, there are a lot of tourneys in NA. But the whole sum of all NA prizepool in a year isn't even half of GSL prizepool (which is like 2 millions $ a year).
You have to consider though that the way the GSL prize pool is distributed is very top-heavy. If you look outside the prize-winnings of FD, MC, MVP, Nestea, and MKP, the winnings of the rest of the Korean code S players are about even and often worse when compared to the winnings of the top ~30 foreigners.
Of course, this isn't taking salaries into account, which I have no idea about.
2) Invite foreigners directly into Code S. A good exchange program would be to invite a first placed foreign player at MLG to Code S. This way there is a huge incentive now for a foreigner to actually go to Korea. In fact, as mentioned on State of the Game, a direct Code S invite does appeal a lot more to foreign pros than a Code A invite. This way, you actually get foreigners to Korea -- if they lose in Code S, they might be more tempted to stick around to play through Code A to qualify again for Code S. Getting them directly into Code S is sort of like a "foot in the door" method and might increase the chances of foreigner retention in Korea.
.
Oh btw xeris after columbus this is what they are doing. Alot of people obviously didnt read closely enough as tons of people have suggested this exact thing, and it is exactly what they are doing starting after columbus. Here is the quote from the announcement " At every 2011 Pro Circuit Live Competition after MLG Columbus, GSL placement will occur as follows: - Code S status will be awarded to the highest placing player, regardless of country of origin, who does not already have Code S status.
Also i think more people than you would think would jump at the chance to try out korea for a month with an all expenses paid trip. Im suprised at the amount of people that make this into a negative thing. All expenses paid trip to korea is at the very worst a very very nice all expenses paid vacation where you could gain a huge amount of practice, regardless of practice partners like you said. Incontrol has said that his 2-3 weeks in korea granted him a far more fulfilling practice then 6 months in NA (or something like that) so although it may not be as ideal as being in an actual pro house it is something the players can defenetly benifit from.
Although i agree that the system is not ideal, i think many of you negative nancy's might be suprised at the amount of players that wouldnt mind trying korea out for a month especially if it is all expenses paid. Why not take a shot at code s, its not like they have to stay if they fail to get in. Its not burden on the player or the team, its just a really great opportunity.
Also just because 2 players on SOTG said they wouldnt go doesnt mean that is the general consensus, you pointed out "as stated on SOTG". By 2 players 1 who has been to korea and is done there for now, and tyler who is married and it wouldnt make sense for him. So i hardly view that as a valid point.
On May 18 2011 05:22 ZasZ. wrote: but it just doesn't make sense logistically or economically for anybody that doesn't feel they have a sure shot at Code S (IdrA) to go through with it.
Not really a "Korea" problem per se, but a "GOM" problem. Since KeSPA and Blizzard have made up now, OGN and MBCGame will probably be offering much better organized tournaments sometime down the road
Making code A online is terrible idea. What makes the GSL unique is the studio atmosphere, if you take that away it's no different than most other tournaments out there. I'm all for making it more accessible, but the online solution is simply not valid. Make it shorter, have more big foreign tournaments grant seeds, anything but making it online.
So what if the top finishers at MLG might refuse to go to Korea? There are plenty of great players in MLG that could compete in code A and code S, I'm not worried in the slightest if Idra or Incontrol are too busy in the US to go to Korea.
On May 18 2011 05:13 StarStruck wrote: Yes, only the winners will be sent to Code S. Xeris, I thought everything you said was blatantly obvious yet GOM doesn't seem to understand this. We know their intentions are good, but there are many reasons why many of the top foreigners will continue to pass on GOM's opportunities.
They don't necessarily not understand, it's just not a simple problem to solve. Making Code A prize money better would help a lot, but money doesn't grow on trees. I'm not sure there's enough money there to do it, while maintaining the Code S prestige.
Stuff like online Code A has pretty huge problems too...not least that lag to Korea is so bad that frankly no one would really qualify anyway.
I said it in another thread, but I'll say it again: Code A is the equivalent of MSL Survivor. Nothing more than a qualifier. I don't like their format or qualification process like the next guy, but it still stands.
Got to appreciate how every Korean tournament format is different (with regards to the MSL, OSL and GSL), but they all have something in common: outrageously long and complex to the naked eye.
I agree with some points and disagree with others.
I think it is in the best interest of GOM to have foreigners in their tournament. I think this is pretty clear from the VOD numbers and what not. Having said that, GOM is putting a lot of effort to make accommodations for the foreigners... they just seem to be the wrong things. How are they supposed to know that though if teams don't say anything. They have only operated in Korea, where all the players are pretty much at their finger tips. They don't have the perspective that you are providing in your OP.
I think the first step is for teams and team managers to speak up about the problems (like you are doing here) and getting their attention. Letting them know "Hey I can bring 4-5 players over if you just give us enough time" will go a long way, instead of just hoping they give you more time.
I think what you are doing (raising awareness) is the first step to this process. I think something needs to be done about Code A-B mechanic, as it feels really clunky so to speak. No incentive to be there for anyone really.
The rest of the world has all these online tournament daily/weekly. Code A should not change.
The draw of GomTV is that they play in a live event. If Code A was play online, what's the difference is it from tournament such as FXOpen or the TSL or any other on teamliquid.
The reason i pay GomTV is for the live game + vods. I sure won't be paying GomTV if it was online.
There could be other fixes but moving Code A to online should not be.
Korea just needs more competitions to fuel their players, foreigners going there alone won't help the sc2 scene in korea. They can make GSL like an exclusive kind of thing where u get the best players to compete only few times a year.
GSL alone won't help the sc2 scene thrive in korea because there is an immense fanbase there too just banking on 1 competition. Look at the foreign scene, we thrived because we have lots of competitions!
Code A definitely does need some sort of rework but it's tough to say. If you make it online a lot of the marketability goes away from GSL. Code A is so insanely competitive right now so they really do want the ability to broadcast it. But if you look at it financially it's just so much better to stay in NA/EU and play in all the constant $1-2k tournaments going on everywhere than it is to basically go all-in on one tournament in the GSL.
I think when the FXO tournament in malaysia gets going that will slightly help with that issues since that would potentially give another tournament for those players going over there to play in, but that's still pretty limiting.
I do think it's pretty uneven, I don't know if it's "fair" skill-wise to give out multiple code-S spots at MLG and I'm not positive that would help, but definitely seeding 4 players into a tournament with a $5k first prize as one of the top 20 players who are all roughly treated equally is a much bigger prize than getting housing in Korea to play a month-long tournament even in code S. It might be viable if there was some "bonus prize" which was if 2 players from the same team made it then they would provide this treatment for up to 5 players from that team or something, but it still might get mostly passed on.
was a good read. i agree with the issues and the reasoning behind them however i think the solutions are kinda eh
1) Make Code A an online tournament personally i think it would just make code a less interesting overall to watch and also i think its unfair that many games would be given win to wrong player because of latency and lag. on top of it it also produces worse games i think
2) Invite foreigners directly into Code S this would only make sense if you really really deserved an invite. winning mlg, dreamhack or iem wouldnt be enough i think
i think combining the 2 solutions into 1 would make more sense. make 1 online qualifer for foreigners only, big bracket with all the big names (128 ppl or so) then the winner gets code s invite
Why not create a sort of super league like the Champion's League in European soccer? Participants in this league would be chosen through finishing at the top of another event ranked according to the difficulty of the event:
Top 4 from GSL Top 3 from TSL Top 3 from NASL Top 2 from MLG Etc...
The trouble with this is that there's no shared calendar in the world of pro Starcraft but regardless of the difficulties, as a fan I would really like to see this happen. Thoughts?
In two years time I don't think you will have to worry about that xza. In fact, I would say the top Korean players will hardly find enough time to tour the world and play in other events because they'll be swamped with tournaments (OGN, MBC, etc.).
I don't think KeSPA could have gotten a better deal when you look at the length of the term. Once this agreement is over, Blizzard will be releasing the last expansion pack for SC2. The game should be more polished by then.
I get the point that you're trying to put across. I don't share your perspective that there is some problem with Korea. I don't think it should be easy for a foreigner to get into Code S, its the major leagues of SC2.
The foreigners that are good enough to compete there have had some success there, the ones that aren't good enough either haven't been there, or haven't succeeded. The list of foreigners good enough to compete in Code S is VERY short.
This doesn't mean that there is a "problem" with Korea.
I don't see what the problem with not having many foreigners in the GSL is. Sure, it invalidates the "global" bit, but other than that the only argument you could put forward is there's no way to measure the ability of foreigners against koreans.
GOM's current LAN set up makes for awesome spectator viewing, because seeing the players adds another level that tournaments like TSL, IPL and NASL lack. I don't think making Code A an online tournament would be a good thing at all, with regards to this view.
On May 18 2011 05:53 MorroW wrote: was a good read. i agree with the issues and the reasoning behind them however i think the solutions are kinda eh
1) Make Code A an online tournament personally i think it would just make code a less interesting overall to watch and also i think its unfair that many games would be given win to wrong player because of latency and lag. on top of it it also produces worse games i think
2) Invite foreigners directly into Code S this would only make sense if you really really deserved an invite. winning mlg, dreamhack or iem wouldnt be enough i think
i think combining the 2 solutions into 1 would make more sense. make 1 online qualifer for foreigners only, big bracket with all the big names (128 ppl or so) then the winner gets code s invite
Good idea. I just think the language barrier + no viable practice partners is going to haunt foreigners in Korea until someone sets up an actual foreign team house (1 team, not just a group of foreign guys). I don't know how to solve the problem, but I hope some accommodations can be made.
It could never be an online tournament. The lag would be so bad that the foreigners would not stand a chance. According to Idra the korean players games across servers (Korea to NA or EU) should not even be considered when accessing their skill. If the Koreans can't play in the lag, I think most of us can agree that no foreigner could do it, especially seeing as no foreigner has even come close to winning Code A even
its odd that a lot of these problems could be solved by Korea to NA being playable so foreigners coud at least compete in online tournaments. (Thank you blizzard)
Great write-up. I realized this myself when they touched upon this on SotG the other day. It's sad, but true. D:
Hopefully now that the Blizzard-Kespa thing has been settled, we'll see some more big tournaments eventually, making exchange programs more worth it. As for now, I can't imagine many players taking code A invites unless it's not an issue financially speaking.
On May 18 2011 05:59 GoKu` wrote: its odd that a lot of these problems could be solved by Korea to NA being playable so foreigners coud at least compete in online tournaments. (Thank you blizzard)
I agree, the clear solution is to this is to move Korea closer to the US. We can put it on top of Utah or Idaho.
... Obviously there is no way Blizzard can fix the lag between KR and NA.
i really like the idea of online qualifications for code a, however, there still is the latency problem, which, i don't see being fixed any time soon ><.
Also with only 32 code s slots (16definite, 16variable) doesn't seem like enough with all of the talent around the world. One could argue that there are a handful of foreigners that can/could play on the level of "code s" which once again draws back to only having 32 slots which is seemingly not enough.
I completely disagree with making Code A online. There's no method to ensure the integrity of gameplay online. How do you know that the person in the game is the same person that's supposed to be there or whether or not he's using 3rd party applications. Furthermore, how do you overcome the cross-regional lag issue that everyone always complains about in online tournaments? While Code S is the main goal, Code A is still a fiercely competitive tournament and despite its low payout, still too prestigious in my opinion to be online and cross-regional.
The fact the the MLG winner gets code S in future tournaments makes me think that it'll be the easy road for a Korean like DonraeGu to get into code S and stay there. Maybe a #1 in MLG isn't as easy as I make it sound, but you could make the case that it'd be worth a serious shot for any Korean with prospects of doing well.
Overall, I love the decision by both MLG and GOM to have an exchange program. The details need to be hammered out and what the best value is for each side will be determined soon enough, but I hope we see a lot of interchange
I'm sure Koreans feel the same way. In a lot of winner interviews, and interviews in general Korean pros talk about wanting to go to Oversees tournaments, but have no way to go, or don't know anything about it so can't.
I feel kind of like it's a completely one sided perspective you're taking. If you look at it from GOM's pov you'd have to think they'd like to have foreigners, but they're not going to abandon everything that's worked so well for them up until now to do it.
Strictly speaking, from a fan's perspective, I'd still rather watch the GSL over any other tournament I've watched so far. It feels like I'm watching the best SC2 in the world and the production value and work reflects that. It feels like a spectacle. Making it online would be destroy that mystic.
Their needs to be some responsibility and initiative from the foreigners as well. I don't know why it's all on the Koreans to change the way they do things.
I think GOM is being very proactive about this and doing the best they can. It's going to be a game of patience. The top players out there reside in Korea however there are some foreigners who can easily compete with them. Out of the 32 players in code S I would eventually want to see 7-8 foreigners in there. I believe this could eventually happen. While many would decline a Code A offer, there will always be some willing to take it on despite the obstacles you mentioned. This will probably be a "I want to compete with the best of the best" motive than anything else(money). Select and Naniwa come to mind(mentioned on sotg). The exchange program WILL work because most would accept the code S offer if they win assuming of course it's not a korean. I also like that koreans are coming over for MLG to compete because this way foreigners can see how they stack up and if investing in GSL is realistic and worthwhile.
Strictly speaking, from a fan's perspective, I'd still rather watch the GSL over any other tournament I've watched so far. It feels like I'm watching the best SC2 in the world and the production value and work reflects that. It feels like a spectacle. Making it online would be destroy that mystic. .
Minus the finals of course >.> but yeah. gsl seems to have more awesome sets than any other tournaments. (Not that that other tournaments don't have great matchups)
On May 18 2011 05:53 MorroW wrote: was a good read. i agree with the issues and the reasoning behind them however i think the solutions are kinda eh
1) Make Code A an online tournament personally i think it would just make code a less interesting overall to watch and also i think its unfair that many games would be given win to wrong player because of latency and lag. on top of it it also produces worse games i think
2) Invite foreigners directly into Code S this would only make sense if you really really deserved an invite. winning mlg, dreamhack or iem wouldnt be enough i think
i think combining the 2 solutions into 1 would make more sense. make 1 online qualifer for foreigners only, big bracket with all the big names (128 ppl or so) then the winner gets code s invite
But making Code A online and inviting foreigners would be equivalent to how NASL works right now. Then I'm assuming you disagree with the NASL system of inviting Koreans because of the latency issue? I remember you talking about taking advantage of it at times.
On May 18 2011 05:24 coolcor wrote: The top player of any nation who does not have code S already after columbus will get code S. (unless the top 3 have code S) I wonder if we'll see teams find the money to send a bunch of players to try and get that prize.
We might see a ton of Koreans going to MLG to try and get Code S. The more Koreans at MLG, the less chance a foreigner has of winning and getting Code S. However, I think having 30 Koreans at MLG would be fun :p
I do think more tournaments in Korea would possibly solve the problem. I think if Korea had all the monthly tournaments and mini LAN events so foreigners could have things to play in / money to win, it'd help a lot.
Too bad there are practically no tournaments in Korea asides the GSL.
And it all boils down to The GOM TV monopoly.
Please don't make up facts. GOM TV has no monopoly over broadcasting starcraft in korea. They have a partnership with Blizzard. If you want to host your own mini-tournament or w/e, you don't contact GOM, you contact Blizzard.
I too believe the lack of many smaller scale tournaments and showmatches may make the korean scene less attractive than the foreign scene. I do not wish to beat a dead horse but I believe this lack of tournament may have to do with gom's exclusive rights to boardcast SC2.
NASL and MLG are already seeing a good portion of korean representation: I am curious to see if korean players will move to the foreign training houses, just like how TL sent players to korea.
On May 18 2011 06:12 JoeSchmoe wrote: Please don't make up facts. GOM TV has no monopoly over broadcasting starcraft in korea. They have a partnership with Blizzard. If you want to host your own mini-tournament or w/e, you don't contact GOM, you contact Blizzard.
GOMTV have exclusive broadcasting rights to Korean TV. Fact. Especially with the news about Kespa and Blizzard you'd think you'd know about this
I don`t think koreans would have any issue having to qualify for events. In fact I think they would prefer if foreign events weren`t invite only (aside from the big names).
On May 18 2011 05:14 Senx wrote: I can definantly understand players and teams perspective when they look at korea vs non-korean tournaments.
I mean to be honest the number of big tournaments and the potential income you can get from playing non-korean tournaments far outweights the ONE small chance you have of placing high in the most stacked league in the world - GSL code S.
So yeah, there's really no reason to play in korea anymore - you're actually missing out on more than you gain from being there. Just mindlessly practicing on the korean ladder will only get you so far, its not enough of a reason to travel all the way over there. Lets not even talk about code A.
Foreign scene has never been this strong and its only getting stronger. Since GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 in korea for 2 years, it will be a few years before Korea can retake its position as the place to be for any player. Assuming OGN and MBC actually does something with SC2.
Dreamhack, MLG, TSL, IPL, NASL and ESL > GSL.
Gom has the ability to give out sub licenses if other companies want to create tournaments the question is whether Gom is not willing to give them out or if there just aren't any companies that are willing to create tournaments.
On May 18 2011 06:12 JoeSchmoe wrote: Please don't make up facts. GOM TV has no monopoly over broadcasting starcraft in korea. They have a partnership with Blizzard. If you want to host your own mini-tournament or w/e, you don't contact GOM, you contact Blizzard.
GOMTV have exclusive broadcasting rights to Korean TV. Fact. Especially with the news about Kespa and Blizzard you'd think you'd know about this
I was aware of broadcasting rights on Korean TV. But unless I'm mistaken, they have no control of other smaller tournaments broadcasted through online streams? It would be difficult to schedule these small tournaments (maybe last a weekend) on TV anyways.
On May 18 2011 05:14 Senx wrote: I can definantly understand players and teams perspective when they look at korea vs non-korean tournaments.
I mean to be honest the number of big tournaments and the potential income you can get from playing non-korean tournaments far outweights the ONE small chance you have of placing high in the most stacked league in the world - GSL code S.
So yeah, there's really no reason to play in korea anymore - you're actually missing out on more than you gain from being there. Just mindlessly practicing on the korean ladder will only get you so far, its not enough of a reason to travel all the way over there. Lets not even talk about code A.
Foreign scene has never been this strong and its only getting stronger. Since GOM has exclusive rights to SC2 in korea for 2 years, it will be a few years before Korea can retake its position as the place to be for any player. Assuming OGN and MBC actually does something with SC2.
Dreamhack, MLG, TSL, IPL, NASL and ESL > GSL.
I agree with this post. I remember reading in some Boxer bio that there were SO MANY tournaments in Korea before sc1 was broadcasted because people liked Vanilla and BW so much. Now its just.. GSL?
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote: Korea is amazing. I've watched all the GSL final events, and love them. The foreign fans love the Korean tournaments. If the GSL wants to become truly global however, more concessions need to be made to make the highest echelons more accessible to foreign players. It can't be a one way street. So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
Nice post, I just want to point out that this isn't true. HuK, Haypro, Ret and Moonglade were invited to Code A.
I also disagree with making Code A an online tournament for reasons already stated by others in this thread.
Our eyes are becoming bigger than our stomaches. What we need is better internet connections so cross world games do not lag. But then we could use stimpacks so no matter the time difference, everyone is already ready to go. But then we could blasay blasay blah
I'm all for the ideas in this thread and I wish there was an easy way to solve the communities problems but at the same time I feel like the problems the community has are brought up because of the community. Its a bitch.
If you're assuming a Korean has a likely shot of winning the MLG, then why should they invite more foreigners to code S? I'd rather have more top players, than more foreigners in the GSL. However, I don't believe the MLG will be auto-won by a Korean, and a foreigner will go to Code S.
I think the biggest problem with so few foreigners in Korea is that there's barely a handful of foreign pros who could consistently hold their own in Code S(and lack of good practice will deter them over time), and just playing in code A isn't worth it. There's very very little incentive for most foreigners to try to participate in GSL unless it's sorta like a vacation experience where you say you got to play a televised match in Korea or something
On May 18 2011 06:22 travis wrote: The good news is that if korea stays largely separate from the foreigner scene outside of korea, we will have the most exciting WCGs ever.
So it's a win either way, right guys?
How is that ? O_O
I don't get your thinking.
And the problem is not that Foreigners can't move to Korea cuz of late announcements by GOM, or anything like that.
It's hard to find PROFESSIONAL players outside of KOREA, that actually will just play X hours a day every day. It has nothing to do with culture etc.( In my opinion )
Very good writeup. Can´t say much about it but online Code A would not be very interesting in my opinion. That would take the tournament all the flair it has. You have to work very hard to own the privilege to be in Code S and that´s ok imo.
I mean Korean have to get to Code A (perhaps the hardest) get to Up/Down and fight into Code S, it would be too easy for a foreigner to be seeded in Code S for winning an foreign tournament (max Up/Down matches, seems even GOM sees this different I might be quite alone with this)
Big letdown as I started reading at "I got an email..." in Xeris sentence "If today I got an email from GOM saying that they wanted to include some non Korean teams in the July/August version of the GSTL" Was so excited for an extended GSTL with 16 teams 8 korean/8 foreign. Would be no prob to be for that short time in korea for most pro´s I guess. I´m sad now
i dont agree with the op. i do not think gom or korea is a problem. more so they are leading the sc2 esports scene. they have done great with their vods and live production, they have invited foreigners for the world championships, they have set up foreign house, they have agreed to MLG player exchange program, pioneered new maps, pretty much answered every request of its fans, set up the GSTL, gave foreigners a direct seed into code a (remember the ret and huk controversy?), and they even showed the TSL live. So I feel like this "problem" label is unwarranted.
Come on xeris....you have a problem with them not flying people to Korea...well what organization can pay for the tickets of over 5 players in one sitting? Can Nasl? Yeah, it sucks they can't get a free ride to Korea but you can't say that is a PROBLEM when no other organization can do such a thing and when GOM has been so great about the foreign scene. my 2 cents.
On May 18 2011 06:22 travis wrote: The good news is that if korea stays largely separate from the foreigner scene outside of korea, we will have the most exciting WCGs ever.
So it's a win either way, right guys?
How is that ? O_O
I don't get your thinking.
in broodwar we knew what would happen every year @ WCG. The koreans would dominate the foreigners.
in sc2 that isn't the case, and if foreigners and koreans are kept largely separate it will be super exciting to see how the foreigners stack up against the koreans.
And the problem is not that Foreigners can't move to Korea cuz of late announcements by GOM, or anything like that.
It's hard to find PROFESSIONAL players outside of KOREA, that actually will just play X hours a day every day. It has nothing to do with culture etc.( In my opinion )
I don't necessarily agree with this. I think that many of the teams outside of korean are quite professional and if anything it is getting even more serious. These guys want to make money just like the koreans. Maybe the discipline level isn't quite there yet, but that could change. And I think for some guys it already is - there are people who really want to win and really train hard.
While I agree with much of Xeris' statements, you have to keep in mind that GOM has actually done a decent amount to support the foreign scene and their players.
While its not perfect, it is already way more than KeSPA has ever tried to do. If foreigners keep up their play, it will only get better with time.
On May 18 2011 06:22 travis wrote: The good news is that if korea stays largely separate from the foreigner scene outside of korea, we will have the most exciting WCGs ever.
So it's a win either way, right guys?
How is that ? O_O
I don't get your thinking.
And the problem is not that Foreigners can't move to Korea cuz of late announcements by GOM, or anything like that.
It's hard to find PROFESSIONAL players outside of KOREA, that actually will just play X hours a day every day. It has nothing to do with culture etc.( In my opinion )
I don't know if you were being sarcastic, but culture has everything to do with work ethics. Koreans are known to be very dedicated and take great pride in whatever work they do.
I think foreigners should take the opportunity that the exchange program is providing. I know the Koreans will, and if the foreign players don't get used to working hard in the end its going to be BW all over again.
What Korea needs, really really needs is for another channel to pick up SC2 and for a second league to get going.
GSL is great, it shouldn't be changed at all, it should be rock hard to get into and tough as nails to stay in.
However it is actually overexposed already, and there needs to be a second league with a fresh set of faces, that has it's own way of doing things (different maps, different set up, different champions)
This way there can be more to win, and more to be interested in.
Also there can't be a rise of Bonjwas until one player beats multiple events, so that he's the master of the game, not the league.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote:You need a ticket to Korea, then to MLG, and then back to Korea. That's almost $3,000 in flight cost, not to count the massive amount of jet lag tha
Bullshit
The cheapest USA-Korea round trip airfare is $1,000 USD, but $1700 on average if you don't order it at the right time.
The "Korean" problem is not only a Korean problem, but a tournament ”problem”.
GOM/Blizzard started the SC2 adventure by betting on Korea being the nr 1 place for tournaments, but this has not happened and a new strategy must be used. GOM is just one, of many, putting on major tournaments. The pricepool in the GSL is fueled by Blizzard, but will that continue in the future, when there is major tournaments outside of Korea?
The viewers that most sponsors want to target is not in Korea right now and GOM should now be viewed as a local organizer, not the global hope it began as.
Put yourself in MLGs shoes, would you like to ship “your” best players to Korea every event and drain the western pro scene from all the talent? Would any other western league or tournament want that to happen? No. They want the sponsors to get the best. The teams also want the sponsors to be happy., that is why they want more support from GOM for even going to Korea.
The program works for both GOM and MLG right now, without the need for to much extra money being used. MLG gets Korean players/teams wanting to go to MLG just to be able for a "quick and easy" way in to code S and a few bucks. GOM gets plenty of Koreans playing with foreigners, casted in Korean by GOM. The western casters are even exchanged to make the deal even sweeter for the viewers.
The top pros from the west will stay in the west and make MLG and other tournaments happy, GOM will make Korean teams happy by giving them better chances to bring in some money/code S placing, and we get to watch Koreans play with top foreign pros.
I don't really see the business need sending pros to Korea, from a spectator point of view or from the tournament/sponsor/team/Blizzard point of view. The only thing needed to make a majority happy is a way of making sure the top players from Korea gets to play outside of Korea.
The current deal makes that more likely. Activsions CFO will be able to sleep at night, dreaming about farmville and how it's worth it.
there are alot of players who wants to go in korea and there are alot of teams who also wants to see their players in korea thats good publicity and good publicity is great for your sponsors
yeah code a is hard and the price money is not rly high but think about the lategame
On May 18 2011 06:36 FOUTWENTYSIXTY wrote: What Korea needs, really really needs is for another channel to pick up SC2 and for a second league to get going.
This would go a long way towards resolving the issue. Fortunately, now that litigation between KESPA and Blizzard is winding down, it's (at least slightly) more likely that this will become a reality.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote:You need a ticket to Korea, then to MLG, and then back to Korea. That's almost $3,000 in flight cost, not to count the massive amount of jet lag tha
Bullshit
The cheapest USA-Korea round trip airfare is $1,000 USD, but $1700 on average if you don't order it at the right time.
....so going by your statement of average Xeris is correct? Because from whereever to Korea then MLG then back to korea would be 2 round trip tix, or 1 round trip and 1 one way.
The biggest problem with GSL all boils down to the time commitment compared to the payout. Most western events last a few days, and pay out accordingly. It's not like they have to put all their eggs in one basket. You screw up a Bo3 at Dreamhack, you miss out on the prize pool of Dreamhack. You screw up a Bo3 at GSL, and it's like missing out on the prizepool of 8 Dreamhacks, while already missing all kinds of other tournaments.
In the end, GSL is a huge monetary gamble for somebody who doesn't already live in Korea. Beyond the money, it's also a commitment to play and practice in an environment that is stacked against you.
I do wish more people would see that there is another side to this story-the one of the Korean progamer. Koreans have to bust their ass to grind their way into and through Code A, full of the best players in the world. Why should a bunch of foreigners get a free pass into those spots? Just because they're not Korean, they should get some sort of affirmative action as if it were a disability? Is there some sort of lack of sacrifice on the part of Korean progamers that warrants this kind of slap in the face?
Foreigners so far have shown that despite generously being given Code A spots, they'll cut and run as soon as things start to look bleak or challenging. Why give a spot to someone that's going to pack it up and go home as soon as he's knocked out of Code S or Code A because he's unwilling to fight for that spot back? What about everyone else that's grinding through each round without being given rewards or freebies? What kind of message does that send to them? Obviously it's a difficult life, but the point is that it's difficult for everyone and I don't think people appreciate how much these kids actually sacrifice (more often than not, their entire futures) for that one opportunity that you want these foreigners get for just not being Korean. Sure they may be good and they may even be champions, but competitively, they're big fish in small ponds. How can you expect the ocean to care for them?
I'd love to see more foreign players playing in Korea, but giving out Code S (or even Code A) spots shouldn't be the way it needs to be encouraged, particularly when it's the same exact people competing over and over again in the foreign tournaments. I don't think it's fair to put the responsibility for this solely on the Koreans when they've already done so much to try to make it work.
The GSL does not care about the diversity of players according to race but rather skill. If you have what it takes to play in Code-A or Code-S you will move to Korea and try your butt off and play to win. Huk, Jinro, and Idra have all accomplished this feat. Mind you, that this isn't an easy task and while only 2 foreigners remain in Korea think about it like this. Hundreds of thousand maybe even millions of people in Korea are competitive Starcraft 2 players but only a handful of them make it to the GSL. It's not about foreigners and the GSL's inclusion of them but rather foreigners and their choice, skill, and dedication of foreigners to move to Korea and get in on the qualifiers and to make it to Code-A and Code-S. I'm not trying to say that Koreans are all amazing and foreigners lack in skill but like you stated, it's a accumulated problem that includes finances, team houses, adjusting, and many other variables. It's unfortunate that the GSL is in Korea and Korea is the Starcraft (both 1 & 2) capital of the world but you have to make adjustments. It's kind of like how Europe is the Counter-strike capital of the world and everyone has to adjust to that as well. On the bright side, at least in Starcraft 2 you have a large foreigner scene and you have many tournaments popping up all around the globe. While the GSL is regarded as the highest and most prestigious still, you have the NASL, MLG, IEM, DreamHack, and many other tournaments that help the foreigner scene to strive. To play in Korea, as a foreigner that is, you have to dedicate your entire life to it. Just watch HuK's stream...it's ridiculous to watch hour after hour after hour of laddering and then practicing around with Jinro or oGs teammates.
The only solution I can really come up for this is a joint foreigner team house. Maybe EG, mouz, fnatic, and other players or organizations all chip in to send players over to Korea. Other than that it's going to be tough unless that player is ready to really go all-in in Korea.
On May 18 2011 06:36 FOUTWENTYSIXTY wrote: What Korea needs, really really needs is for another channel to pick up SC2 and for a second league to get going.
This would go a long way towards resolving the issue. Fortunately, now that litigation between KESPA and Blizzard is winding down, it's (at least slightly) more likely that this will become a reality.
Perhaps, but do remember that Gretech has exclusive rights to SC for one (or two?) more years so we have to wait how it pans out. What I do like is that with the whole foreigners vs koreans now being somewhat of an even fight, a second league could very well pick on this to make it all the more exciting
There is no problem with korea. GOM should just turn the GSL into the KSL (or 'the KSL feat. HuK 'n jinro') and the foreigners can keep doing their own thing.
Those are excellent suggestions for sure! The idea of making code A online is especially brilliant imho. I definitely hope this somehow travels to the ears of the decision makers of GOMtv.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote: So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event.
That's incorrect. Ret, Haypro, Huk and Moonglade got invited in code A at some point. I don't remember koreans not being invited in a foreign tournament, but I wouldn't be surprised this happened too.
Isnt another big problem with GSL and the Korean scene that tournaments take like 3-4 weeks to play through? Even if Code A wouldve had more competitive prize pool, it would still take quite a large commitment to go to Korea for that long. Wouldnt it be more appealing to foreigners if there were more short tournies that only ran for 1-2 weeks max, which would still be possible to get into Code S from?
Foreigners got seeded into Code A for a season and the majority of them lost in the first round. Why should they take away from the koreans qualifying from the tournament that actually have proof that they can compete in Code A by making it through the qualifiers, the foreigners they gave seeds to were disappointments and is surely why they stopped with the seeds for Code A.
making code A an online tournament is a suggestion without much thought put into it. if someone wanted to participate in the GSL (foreigner or not) they have to play in the "offline" qualifiers to first qualify for code A itself. with that being said, making code A QUALIFIERS an online event would bring much more international attention.
Possibly make a section of Code A qualifiers, and then a champ round in Code A in which to top 16/top8 are flown to Korea for a Code A champ, and then they'll stay there for the up/down battles.
Wow that was an awesome writeup OP. You have many great and valid points. I definitely think the foreigners should be put right into code S like you said as well.
I feel like the OP was very pessimistic and cynical about the whole MLG and GSL trade thing. Even if it's inconvenient to go to korea or not worth it because of the drive, it should be because of the prestige. The first foreigner to win a GSL will be considered the best, will be venerated, and so on. Just imagine if it did happen.
There isn't a lot of propose solutions to your criticisms. Code A online would be horrible, I just don't see that working at all. And the your proposed solution to direct invite to code S is already a reality with the first place in MLG getting a spot.
I think GOM is thinking of and doing everything possible to have more foreigners in the GSL and other leagues (besides IPL and EG stuff) is doing what they can to have koreans in their leagues. It's however up to the players to make that stride and jump. The thing is foreigners aren't willing to make that leap, and I would attribute that to their lack of confidence.
On May 18 2011 06:43 LegendaryZ wrote: I do wish more people would see that there is another side to this story-the one of the Korean progamer. Koreans have to bust their ass to grind their way into and through Code A, full of the best players in the world. Why should a bunch of foreigners get a free pass into those spots? Just because they're not Korean, they should get some sort of affirmative action as if it were a disability? Is there some sort of lack of sacrifice on the part of Korean progamers that warrants this kind of slap in the face?
Foreigners so far have shown that despite generously being given Code A spots, they'll cut and run as soon as things start to look bleak or challenging. Why give a spot to someone that's going to pack it up and go home as soon as he's knocked out of Code S or Code A because he's unwilling to fight for that spot back? What about everyone else that's grinding through each round without being given rewards or freebies? What kind of message does that send to them? Obviously it's a difficult life, but the point is that it's difficult for everyone and I don't think people appreciate how much these kids actually sacrifice (more often than not, their entire futures) for that one opportunity that you want these foreigners get for just not being Korean. Sure they may be good and they may even be champions, but competitively, they're big fish in small ponds. How can you expect the ocean to care for them?
I'd love to see more foreign players playing in Korea, but giving out Code S (or even Code A) spots shouldn't be the way it needs to be encouraged, particularly when it's the same exact people competing over and over again in the foreign tournaments. I don't think it's fair to put the responsibility for this solely on the Koreans when they've already done so much to try to make it work.
I totally agree with you. I understand why a player like Idra who has the potential to win Code S would leave Korea, yeah there are many tournaments in which he could probably enter the prize bubble and get paid without practicing as much as he would to get paid in Korea. He is a progamer, he does this for a living.
I think in the future the Korean scene is going to be the same as BW, the standard practice schedules will be the same as BW, which is what all foreigners hated. And since SC2 will be global, code A players will travel to other countries to win those tournaments having the advantage of the Korean scene.
Why can't there be separate scenes? The Korean scene is based around leagues with a rigid framework while the NA/EU scene is based around big LAN events and on-line cups/leagues. The Korean scene is also very localized in comparison to the vast space that occupy non-Korean land. OP wants these very different scenes to interact even more in particular from the foreign to the Korean scene. The recent GOM-MLG agreements aren't as good as the OP wants but the underlying conflict lies in how good the foreigners are in comparison to the Korean players. Therefore, in my opinion, should a world ranking be introduced.
If e-sports are going to get somewhere an international body must be created so that the world ranking ranking becomes fact. However the problem with a world ranking is that if the current two scenes continue to see very little interaction the original underlined question remains but the Koreans are getting out of their native land to play tournaments and they have their own ranking. If the the Koreans continue to take part of the foreigner scene and if a foreigner/world ranking will see the light of the day we will then be able to answer whether a foreigner should play code A or code S.
unfortunately for you, korea does not care what you think, they will run their tournament the way they want with the format they want. What gives you the audacity to believe you could manage the worlds best sc2 tournament.
With the haypro example, it just shows that he can be better off winning small online cups. But that's just the point, GSL wants the best players (no offense to haypro); they take playing sc2 to a professional level and it's not for everyone.
People keep saying that you can make more money outside of Korea but truth is that you can potentially make the most money from GSL. They are cutting themselves short by not aiming high and settling for what is easier for lesser. People are willing to make trips to MLG which nets $5,000 for the winner (the cost of EU players to fly back and forth is also huge). If you are not in the top two in MLG you don't really make any profit aswell, just like being in code A.
You are already sacrificing a lot to be a progamer. If you are the best, the GSL allows you to be paid well; like an actual career but you have to keep up and be at the top. Online cups and small tournaments don't cut it when you can be working a normal job and get paid more. Even if you make like $20,000 this year from progaming that's not that much, but if you making what MC is making then that is high in any standards ($160,000 and can be $250,000 if he wins the super tournament).
It's like the foreigners say to themselves that they don't want to be able to qualify or try to win code S but rather try for the smaller prize pools outside Korea. You already invested in being a progamer, why not invest in being a progamer in Korea where you can make more potentially? GSL is more than fair, they try to work with the foreigners and work with MLG and making attempts to accommodate them.
It's actually amazing to get to see this from a team manager's point of view, I want to start with that statement.
Regarding the problem, I agree completely with that the MLG champion (heck, even the finalists) should get directly into Code S. This would be very attractive due to the fact that you're guaranteed a chance in the next GSL (may this be in code A). I believe that the length of the GSL, lasting 3-4 weeks is another solvable issue. However, this is probably against the will of Gretech who wants as much sponsor time out of the event as humanly possible. Question is, what will happen when a similar league as GSL awakens in the west? The obvious answer to that is that we will have an actual chance of competing against Korea. If MLG for example went to become a similar event, hosted every 2 months, lasting for a month and so on, whereever that was held would be "the place to be" for all the proteams of Europe and NA. Question is, is this really desirable? I don't know. I would on one hand see the Europeans and NAcans improve even more, on the other hand, it would without any doubt lead to a split between the Korean scene and the western scene.
The solution to this though, would be for the 2 tournaments to, for example every 4 months, host a tournaments for both the Koreans (GSL player) and the western (MLG players). If this event can be held every second time in Korea and every second time in whereever the MLG was being held. If the two tournaments could then help fund the trips for the players, I think this solution would be great. I see it kind of depends on the money it takes to transfer 16/32 players from Korea/the West to Korea/the West...
On May 18 2011 06:50 skrzmark wrote: Foreigners got seeded into Code A for a season and the majority of them lost in the first round. Why should they take away from the koreans qualifying from the tournament that actually have proof that they can compete in Code A by making it through the qualifiers, the foreigners they gave seeds to were disappointments and is surely why they stopped with the seeds for Code A.
Well same reason why Dreamhack invites korean players into there tournaments. There is qualify tournaments also there however they chose to give koreans invites instead.
And there has been many western tournaments like that.
Thanks for your great writeup. The scene is so busy outside of Korea that there is little reason to really be over there at the moment. It's the mecca, and it is an amazing place full of amazing players who treat StarCraft 2 very differently than the foreigners. In the end, however, it's not the best place to be for players to see the best return on their investment. The foreign scene is just flooded with cash at the moment and there's just no good reason to be in Korea where that's not the case. Without the cross-server latency? Definitely. With it? No real compelling reason to be so far away from home and familiar surroundings.
Hey -- you guys are right! I totally forgot that 4 foreign players were invited to Code A. However, I think my point generally still stands.
"There isn't a lot of propose solutions to your criticisms. Code A online would be horrible, I just don't see that working at all. And the your proposed solution to direct invite to code S is already a reality with the first place in MLG getting a spot."
How would Code A online be horrible? If you want to make an outlandish claim like that you should at least explain it...
What a great write-up! It's pretty sweet to hear some of the background stuff that goes on with stuff like this.
I feel that if, as others have suggested, GOM simply re-worked Code A to not be as long (like maybe a week or something) then there would be a lot more foreign players that would put in the effort to do it.
As it is now if you go for a month and don't get into Code S you essentially 'wasted' a month of foreign tournaments, but if it were only a week or so and it didn't work out then the time invested isn't seen as much of a 'waste'.
Only to the foreign scene GSL qualifiers is a bad thing. Simply because foreigners don`t think they are good enough. Lets not beat around the bush, if a player is good enough, a tournament with a ridiculous prize pool at the top is a no brainer to compete in.
With qualifiers everyone has equal chance, but in tournaments that are invite only....pro players that don`t have the name of like MC or Boxer has no chance to even compete, so I have a hard time believing koreans would give a damn if they had to go through qualifiers especially the ones who would never get invites to the foreign tournaments or the ones who aren`t even in the GSL.
On May 18 2011 06:43 LegendaryZ wrote: I do wish more people would see that there is another side to this story-the one of the Korean progamer. Koreans have to bust their ass to grind their way into and through Code A, full of the best players in the world. Why should a bunch of foreigners get a free pass into those spots? Just because they're not Korean, they should get some sort of affirmative action as if it were a disability? Is there some sort of lack of sacrifice on the part of Korean progamers that warrants this kind of slap in the face?
Foreigners so far have shown that despite generously being given Code A spots, they'll cut and run as soon as things start to look bleak or challenging. Why give a spot to someone that's going to pack it up and go home as soon as he's knocked out of Code S or Code A because he's unwilling to fight for that spot back? What about everyone else that's grinding through each round without being given rewards or freebies? What kind of message does that send to them? Obviously it's a difficult life, but the point is that it's difficult for everyone and I don't think people appreciate how much these kids actually sacrifice (more often than not, their entire futures) for that one opportunity that you want these foreigners get for just not being Korean. Sure they may be good and they may even be champions, but competitively, they're big fish in small ponds. How can you expect the ocean to care for them?
I'd love to see more foreign players playing in Korea, but giving out Code S (or even Code A) spots shouldn't be the way it needs to be encouraged, particularly when it's the same exact people competing over and over again in the foreign tournaments. I don't think it's fair to put the responsibility for this solely on the Koreans when they've already done so much to try to make it work.
True...GOM themselves have done more than enough for the foreign community. How many code S spots do we want given out before it becomes unfair to the thousands of Koreans busting their ass just to make it to code A, never mind code S. The only thing they can realistically do is raise Code A price pool to make it more attractive and spread out Code S prize money to make it less top heavy. Other than that what more can you ask of GOM that hasn't already been done? The fact that there's no other tourneys in Korea is not GOM's fault but rather the cause of the Kespa/Blizzard thing. GOM has done and amazing job of running THEIR tourney and making it as foreigner friendly as possible. They still provide the highest quality, by far highest paying tourney in the world. I'm all for ideas such as advanced communication and making code A more attractive but giving out more free code S spots is definitely NOT the answer.
On May 18 2011 07:05 Xeris wrote: Hey -- you guys are right! I totally forgot that 4 foreign players were invited to Code A. However, I think my point generally still stands.
"There isn't a lot of propose solutions to your criticisms. Code A online would be horrible, I just don't see that working at all. And the your proposed solution to direct invite to code S is already a reality with the first place in MLG getting a spot."
How would Code A online be horrible? If you want to make an outlandish claim like that you should at least explain it...
because although the whole battle.net fiasco prevents it from being a true lan environment, KR to KR latency is quite good
the entire setup of GSL is based around a live tournament structure and it would be very strange to the spectator for one of the booths to be empty, and yes, in most people's eyes it would cause the tournament to lose prestige
this analysis also makes the assumption that the code A prize pool will never increase
you might be right that it does not make much sense to accept the code A invitation as of now but it is a long term deal and at the rate the scene is exploding in 2012 it might be a more financially sound decision
I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
Yeah, there really is no reason for a progamer to drop whatever their doing, stay a month in Korea, and then most likely lose... One tournament a month is NOT good for a progamer... It also vastly lowers the odds of winning anything at all. Unless your one of the best players in the world, there is absolute no reason to go to Korea...
There is no "korean" problem, but a "foreign" one. Foreigners are growing used to play tournaments with sizable prize-pool and mediocre competition. As you say, an average player can make a living just by grinding small weekly tournaments. Good players know that with the volatility of SC2, they all have a shot at winning a huge tournament from time to time. The "foreign" problem is a mix between greediness and laziness. Of course, all pro-gamers want to win some money, but athletes should also try to become the best. GomTV is offering a huge opportunity to play against the best players in the world (without lag, koreans player dominate). But here we are, asking for even more: no risk online-only tournaments (more farming) and direct access to code S.
On May 18 2011 06:57 archonOOid wrote: Why can't there be separate scenes? The Korean scene is based around leagues with a rigid framework while the NA/EU scene is based around big LAN events and on-line cups/leagues. The Korean scene is also very localized in comparison to the vast space that occupy non-Korean land. OP wants these very different scenes to interact even more in particular from the foreign to the Korean scene. The recent GOM-MLG agreements aren't as good as the OP wants but the underlying conflict lies in how good the foreigners are in comparison to the Korean players. Therefore, in my opinion, should a world ranking be introduced.
If e-sports are going to get somewhere an international body must be created so that the world ranking ranking becomes fact. However the problem with a world ranking is that if the current two scenes continue to see very little interaction the original underlined question remains but the Koreans are getting out of their native land to play tournaments and they have their own ranking. If the the Koreans continue to take part of the foreigner scene and if a foreigner/world ranking will see the light of the day we will then be able to answer whether a foreigner should play code A or code S.
I think the Korean window of opportunity is slowly closing it's doors once KeSPA gets its feet wet. New doors could open I suppose, but that has never been part of KeSPA's mandate.
It remains to be seen what kind of global opportunities the KeSPA organization will present to the rest of the world. I think one things for sure, there will be many more big tournaments to come once negotiations pick up after the initial agreement. This might happen sooner rather than later. If you recall, GOM revoked their exclusivity to broadcast SC2 due to the lawsuit. It remains to be seen whether or not OGN and MBC will be looking to press the action and try to start up their own leagues.
All the major sponsors in BW will now seek opportunities in SC2.
My prediction is that Code A will last less than a month down to maybe 2 weeks, and the loss of airtime for GOM will be covered by an expanded team league.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
On May 18 2011 06:54 FlamingTurd wrote: Wow that was an awesome writeup OP. You have many great and valid points. I definitely think the foreigners should be put right into code S like you said as well.
Put bad people into code s and kick out those who deserve to be there? Yea valid point...
We seeded foreigners into code A a few season ago, what happened? I think all but 1 foreigner lost in the first round, pathetic. Koreans are working their ass off to get into code a/s, foreigners in no way deserve a free be in. Like someone else said, it seems the foreigner community is all about the money, which is understandable, yet pathetic at the same time.
I think a few people have touched upon is that Code S invites will probably weaken the quality of the GSL in general. If you've got into Code S from qualifiers all the way through and by up-and-down matches then as a player you've had extreme amounts of dedication/skill and maybe a pinch of luck thrown in.
I don't want Korean GSL to have a bunch of foreigners that have been casted in from a foreign tournament into Code S. It's another spot that's taken away from a Korean that probably much more deserving with plenty of decent enough players shining in GTSL but can't get into Code S.
My point is that'll we'll just have to wait if it's the case of havin more channels with more tournaments in Korea but if thats the case then SC2 may have grown to such extent in Europe and America that foreign players don't need to travel to Korea to win big. One day all the major tournament holders may get together and hold it in some neutral country (pigs might fly) and offer a top prize of $250k (again blue pigs might fly)
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
True, however, I believe that what I wrote in my previous post still stands. If there was a tournament such as the GSL in NA or Europe, the city hosting it would be the "place to be" for all the teams. Right?
Is this really things Gretech needs to do though? Besides the obvious like telling teams well in advance, that's a given. They run a tournament, but it's like you're applying a load of extra responsibility onto them besides simply running a tournament.
To me it seems like it's just the teams need to improve to sort a lot of these problems out. Better sponsors, to pay salaries and afford houses. Until that happens of course it's simply not going to be feasible. I'm not sure this is a problem to be solved, the progression of the scene as a whole (if it happens) will make these things easier.
On May 18 2011 06:57 archonOOid wrote: Why can't there be separate scenes? The Korean scene is based around leagues with a rigid framework while the NA/EU scene is based around big LAN events and on-line cups/leagues. The Korean scene is also very localized in comparison to the vast space that occupy non-Korean land. OP wants these very different scenes to interact even more in particular from the foreign to the Korean scene. The recent GOM-MLG agreements aren't as good as the OP wants but the underlying conflict lies in how good the foreigners are in comparison to the Korean players. Therefore, in my opinion, should a world ranking be introduced.
If e-sports are going to get somewhere an international body must be created so that the world ranking ranking becomes fact. However the problem with a world ranking is that if the current two scenes continue to see very little interaction the original underlined question remains but the Koreans are getting out of their native land to play tournaments and they have their own ranking. If the the Koreans continue to take part of the foreigner scene and if a foreigner/world ranking will see the light of the day we will then be able to answer whether a foreigner should play code A or code S.
I think the Korean window of opportunity is slowly closing it's doors once KeSPA gets its feet wet. New doors could open I suppose, but that has never been part of KeSPA's mandate.
It remains to be seen what kind of global opportunities the KeSPA organization will present to the rest of the world. I think one things for sure, there will be many more big tournaments to come once negotiations pick up after the initial agreement. This might happen sooner rather than later. If you recall, GOM revoked their exclusivity to broadcast SC2 due to the lawsuit. It remains to be seen whether or not OGN and MBC will be looking to press the action and try to start up their own leagues.
All the major sponsors in BW will now seek opportunities in SC2.
No you recalled wrong, they revoked their BW license. Gretech still controls everything related to SC2 no one else can have anything to do with broadcasting it. BW sponsors form the group that is KeSPA, so it's illogical to assume they will seek anything in SC2 in the near future. I believe it's unlikely they will be even willing to grant a license to KeSPA in the future when it appears like they have much more control over the scene if it's Gretech in charge.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
I don't know if you mean to, but you come off as very aggressive for no appearent reason. I really appreciate Xeris taking time and typing a post here to give us his point of view. I think you should as well..
On May 18 2011 07:23 Tsenister wrote: I think a few people have touched upon is that Code S invites will probably weaken the quality of the GSL in general. If you've got into Code S from qualifiers all the way through and by up-and-down matches then as a player you've had extreme amounts of dedication/skill and maybe a pinch of luck thrown in.
If an inadequate player gets an invite to Code S, that would weaken Code S by only one player, and for only one month (if they retain Code S they are adequate, obviously).
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
I don't know if you mean to, but you come off as very aggressive for no appearent reason. I really appreciate Xeris taking time and typing a post here to give us his point of view. I think you should as well..
You are right, and I apologize, I respect Xeris and al the work he has done. However, that's because I'm disappointed. When sc2 scene started to grow, I though the teams and tournament organizers would agree to gather in some place (example ; South California) then set up something similar to the Korean scene... :s
On May 18 2011 07:23 Tsenister wrote: I think a few people have touched upon is that Code S invites will probably weaken the quality of the GSL in general. If you've got into Code S from qualifiers all the way through and by up-and-down matches then as a player you've had extreme amounts of dedication/skill and maybe a pinch of luck thrown in.
If an inadequate player gets an invite to Code S, that would weaken Code S by only one player, and for only one month (if they retain Code S they are adequate, obviously).
Honestly, A player like Naniwa or Thorzain can win GSL. Its definitely feasible... Naniwa won MLG dallas, and I have no doubt in my mind that he would do well in Korea.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
I don't know if you mean to, but you come off as very aggressive for no appearent reason. I really appreciate Xeris taking time and typing a post here to give us his point of view. I think you should as well..
He was a bit aggressive but don't you think he's got a bit of a point here? Why are we assuming the problem is Korea here. It's really the teams responsibilities to do these things, and they are not yet up to the logistics and finances required for it. Nevertheless, what's the motivation for the players to even go to Korea right now even if it was much easier...
The bigger issue in my view is simply thus; The GSL/GSTL are the only tournaments in Korea, they are far too competitive and Western gamers will not want to put the effort in to consistently compete in it. They can just play in multiple objectively easier tournaments around the world for more money. The only reason to play in them is pretty much for the prestige, or if you can manage to schedule other tournaments around it. I'm going to take a wild guess that neither of the solutions listed in the OP would change anything, a couple of players extra might try their luck at most because of the possibly unfair-to-koreans invite.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
I don't know if you mean to, but you come off as very aggressive for no appearent reason. I really appreciate Xeris taking time and typing a post here to give us his point of view. I think you should as well..
You are right, and I apologize, I respect Xeris and al the work he has done. However, that's because I'm disappointed. When sc2 scene started to grow, I though the teams and tournament organizers would agree to gather in some place (example ; South California) then set up something similar to the Korean scene... :s
We'd love for the NASL to do just that, but its really not feasible (realistically). It isn't to say "this is YOUR problem, not Korea's"... Korea was "blessed" in a way that it is a small, highly centralized country who happened to have eSports take off in a huge way. This makes their model totally unique. There has to be a realistic way to do this that will work for everyone. We can't just copy them in every way.
It isn't as simple to say "This works in Korea. Korea does it right. Everyone should use their model."
I'm strongly against free code S invites to anybody. If you're good enough to be a code S player (Bomber, Alicia, etc) then you should be able to work your way up. Free code A invites, maybe. If you can't survive in code A then you don't deserve code S.
And an online tournament, even if it's for code A, doesn't sit well with me. The GSL does it right, the foreign tournaments can't even come close to comparing. The atmosphere and production value that goes into the GSL is much, much greater than any foreign tournament I've seen, and making code A an online tournament would not be nearly as entertaining for the spectators. And esports is driven by not just the players but heavily by the fans, so putting out a quality product is very important.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
I don't know if you mean to, but you come off as very aggressive for no appearent reason. I really appreciate Xeris taking time and typing a post here to give us his point of view. I think you should as well..
You are right, and I apologize, I respect Xeris and al the work he has done. However, that's because I'm disappointed. When sc2 scene started to grow, I though the teams and tournament organizers would agree to gather in some place (example ; South California) then set up something similar to the Korean scene... :s
well that could happen or it could get so big that costs of flying players out to anywhere becomes negligible (take any major sport as an example).
I can't imagine GOM doing this for any other reason except the viewership numbers for GSL are much better with foreigners in the tournament. Even with all the money they put up for plane tickets / housing I can already sense it's going to fail.
A possible solution might be to have top X GSL finishers seeded for the next Code S competition, with the rest being drawn from separate Korean / International qualifiers. If foreigners really doesn't stack up simply decrease the number of slots foreign qualifiers can offer up to the GSL. I hate how little player movement the current system provides.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
I don't know if you mean to, but you come off as very aggressive for no appearent reason. I really appreciate Xeris taking time and typing a post here to give us his point of view. I think you should as well..
You are right, and I apologize, I respect Xeris and al the work he has done. However, that's because I'm disappointed. When sc2 scene started to grow, I though the teams and tournament organizers would agree to gather in some place (example ; South California) then set up something similar to the Korean scene... :s
The western scene will never grow to its full potential until something like this can happen, that is why i see way more opportunity in the korean market right now as something like this is possible. Esports will not beable to attract huge viewers with online tournaments only, its just not as exciting and will probably not pull much of a new audience (as we have seen with IPL and NASL, its never both of them that have good numbers when they were running at the same time, there is like a max of about 20k for an average day, sometimes ipl would take 12 and NASL would take 8 sometimes it would be the other way around )
It doesnt seem like it will be possible in the west until alot more money is put into esports, but as it stands i dont know if having 10-20k viewers is enought to sustain a 100,000 dollar tournament doeesnt really seem viable although i guess their overhead is minimal compared to someone on network television.
If I was pro player living in korea I'd go to a foreign event and win it to skip the code a crap if what you suggested happened about direct invite to code s. They should scrap the two tiers and make it a single big tournament. Then start up a seperate tournament by themselves or partner with ogn/mbc on their network. Winning MLG or whatever will lead you to one of the two tournaments. Give Koreans more hope and foreigner more incentive to want to live in Korea.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
I don't know if you mean to, but you come off as very aggressive for no appearent reason. I really appreciate Xeris taking time and typing a post here to give us his point of view. I think you should as well..
You are right, and I apologize, I respect Xeris and al the work he has done. However, that's because I'm disappointed. When sc2 scene started to grow, I though the teams and tournament organizers would agree to gather in some place (example ; South California) then set up something similar to the Korean scene... :s
We'd love for the NASL to do just that, but its really not feasible (realistically). It isn't to say "this is YOUR problem, not Korea's"... Korea was "blessed" in a way that it is a small, highly centralized country who happened to have eSports take off in a huge way. This makes their model totally unique. There has to be a realistic way to do this that will work for everyone. We can't just copy them in every way.
It isn't as simple to say "This works in Korea. Korea does it right. Everyone should use their model."
I don't think that's his point, merely a counterpoint to you saying that the way Korean's are doing it is somehow bad.
I think from the point of view of a spectator though, the Korean model is definitely much more entertaining. It's shown that it has a steeper competition grade and the live format brings a lot of life to their broadcasts as well.
Obviously it's not something that can be done outside of Korea, but I don't think it is the wrong way to be doing it. If foreigners thought they could compete and do well in GSL they would probably go. It's not only a money thing but it's playing with the best of the best. Everyone wants to be the best, especially people as competitive as progamers.
On May 18 2011 07:40 SaturnAttack wrote: I can't imagine GOM doing this for any other reason except the viewership numbers for GSL are much better with foreigners in the tournament. Even with all the money they put up for plane tickets / housing I can already sense it's going to fail.
A possible solution might be to have top X GSL finishers seeded for the next Code S competition, with the rest being drawn from separate Korean / International qualifiers. If foreigners really doesn't stack up simply decrease the number of slots foreign qualifiers can offer up to the GSL. I hate how little player movement the current system provides.
While i agree the Code A -> Code S bottleneck is kinda silly, isn't it unfair to just throw a load of foreigners into things unless they change the whole format? Maybe you could say it doesn't matter how people got in but it does seem weird if it was like this and wouldn't Korean players be disgruntled by it..
On May 18 2011 07:25 infinity2k9 wrote: No you recalled wrong, they revoked their BW license. Gretech still controls everything related to SC2 no one else can have anything to do with broadcasting it. BW sponsors form the group that is KeSPA, so it's illogical to assume they will seek anything in SC2 in the near future. I believe it's unlikely they will be even willing to grant a license to KeSPA in the future when it appears like they have much more control over the scene if it's Gretech in charge.
Ah, ok. Well aware what KeSPA stands for, but I still believe the businesses will feel more pressure to get their SC2 branches up and running. Considering how big they are, I don't think this would alleviate too many resources, but considering Gretech still has SC2 broadcast rights, then yeah might be no other way. Waiting game commences.
I think it comes down to the simple fact that Korean tournaments expect you live or stay in Korea for extended periods of time. Whereas western tournaments are at most 5 days long.
It just isn't viable for western players to up and move to Korea.
Western tournaments expect players to just turn up for one week or weekend. Consider the MLG/GLS swap.
Koreans come compete in a prestigious one weekend tournament, all expenses paid, with a $14k in prize pool. That can get $400 just for turning up if they are a registered pro. It is also a double elimination tournament too so they have to lose at least twice to be knocked out. There is literally no downside to that at all even if they don't win anything.
But Western players have to live in Korea for at least a month, accommodation and travel expenses are paid for but players still have to pay normal expenses of living in a foreign country, and just to compete for a spot in Code S. Nothing is guaranteed and the Code A winner gets a measly $1.4k. Code A is a single elimination format which means players could lose a single Bo3 and be out.
That's so bad it seems wrong to even compare them.
Korea is the meka of SC2 and even though I agree with the majority of the statements put forward, I wouldn't want it changed for the simple reason that it sets the bar super high. Fencing it off from the mere mortals of Western world where only the greats will even think about embarking, and when one does finally win it, it'll be that much sweeter. the $85k, coverage, fame and prestige, experience and glory will be worth be worth the 2 month blood sweat and tears, plus the awesome experience shouldn't be done from a persons bed room online >_< thinking about players willing the NASL in their shirtless P.J's meh...
- Take a bit of Code S price money and move it to Code A. Currently its like.... 95/5 % distribution or something? Make it more like 80/20 or 70/30. That also makes sense since the money distribution nowhere tells the story of how small the skill difference is between S and A. - Make Code A only run for a much shorter period. Maybe 1 week only? - Run Code A before Code S. Code A basically becomes a "Code S qualifier" with still good price money.
You increase the appeal of Code A by giving it more money. You make it possible to come and run through Code A quickly. If you get seeded into Code A and fail, you still didnt waste more than a week. And if you do well, not only do you get enough price money to make it a worthy trip, you also get a spot in the immediately following Code S.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
They don't have to "come up with something" so that they can be just like GSL. The whole point of this thread is that he doesn't think the GSL model works for the rest of the world. It's just silly saying, all of the western world needs to turn into Korea and if they don't it's their damn problem.
If the _GLOBAL_ star league wants to actually be global, they need a model that doesn't just work for Korea.
What people are saying is that this whole MLG/GSL collaboration thing is partly because Korean pro-gamers are dissatisfied that it's hard for them to play in foreign tournament. How many interviews have we seen like with the IM team where people are saying they want to play in foreign tournaments. This is a GSL problem and they're trying to help progamers but it's not enough.
I think the Korean window of opportunity is slowly closing it's doors once KeSPA gets its feet wet. New doors could open I suppose, but that has never been part of KeSPA's mandate.
It remains to be seen what kind of global opportunities the KeSPA organization will present to the rest of the world. I think one things for sure, there will be many more big tournaments to come once negotiations pick up after the initial agreement. This might happen sooner rather than later. If you recall, GOM revoked their exclusivity to broadcast SC2 due to the lawsuit. It remains to be seen whether or not OGN and MBC will be looking to press the action and try to start up their own leagues.
All the major sponsors in BW will now seek opportunities in SC2.
If your prediction is true there are possibilities for "guest appearances" by Koreans in the foreign scene, similar to the current situation. However if there are competing leagues in Korea there might a greater opportunity for foreigners to (pick/be picked) (a/by) a league of the their choice. So there are three possibilities: 1 the Korean scene remains rigid and not suitable for foreigners or 2 the Korean scene becomes attractive through competitive leagues and more money or 3 the GSL adopts the OP changes and it turns out to be a great idea!
On May 18 2011 07:25 infinity2k9 wrote: No you recalled wrong, they revoked their BW license. Gretech still controls everything related to SC2 no one else can have anything to do with broadcasting it. BW sponsors form the group that is KeSPA, so it's illogical to assume they will seek anything in SC2 in the near future. I believe it's unlikely they will be even willing to grant a license to KeSPA in the future when it appears like they have much more control over the scene if it's Gretech in charge.
Ah, ok. Well aware what KeSPA stands for, but I still believe the businesses will feel more pressure to get their SC2 branches up and running. Considering how big they are, I don't think this would alleviate too many resources, but considering Gretech still has SC2 broadcast rights, then yeah might be no other way. Waiting game commences.
Where would the pressure be coming from for it? SC2 isn't as successful in Korea as prehaps Blizzard expected from their huge marketing campaign, that's what seems to be the situation from the figures and info we have. Unless there's an upsurge of popularity in the game in the near future for some reason, or coinciding with an expansion, i doubt any current eSports team-running business will want to spend even more money on eSports teams. BW teams must cost a serious amount of money to run already, and they get decent TV and internet exposure from it. SC2 provides far less exposure for the time being.
The sponsors we've heard so far like Intel/Coca-cola might sound like big names getting involved and that it's taking off, but how much money do you think they are really putting into this? We can only speculate but there's no evidence it's like, say Samsung, giving a whole team + coaches salaries plus funds for a prohouse and other costs. I don't think they want to simply double the costs for less marketing potential.
I disagree with both, I would just hope for an increased prize pool of code A and just an easier "barrier" for players to get in both code A and S.
The only reason that Europe and NA have online tournaments is because of the sheer distance and how far they've spread out. In Korea, that's not the case. It's just not how Korea does things... and besides the question of usage of hacks and cheating will always arise. Besides, the production value and the excitement would just not be there with the online tournaments. There's a reason that GSL is considered the best SC2 tournament right now. I honestly believe that if a player doesn't have the dedication to compete in a most prestigious tournament in the world right now, then that person does not deserve to be the best. And I hope every progamer has the desire to be the best. So I think GSL would be more for the experience rather than the actual winnings.
Being seeded into directly into Code S just makes up and down matches harder to work with and it just doesn't seem balanced between Korean's benefits and foreigner's benefits. It's just little hard to explain but yea....
What's with people being afraid that Koreans are going to win everything? If you're good, you will win everything. We should be working on how to get better to beat the Koreans rather than talk about how not to let Koreans into the tournaments.
On May 18 2011 06:54 FlamingTurd wrote: Wow that was an awesome writeup OP. You have many great and valid points. I definitely think the foreigners should be put right into code S like you said as well.
Put bad people into code s and kick out those who deserve to be there? Yea valid point...
We seeded foreigners into code A a few season ago, what happened? I think all but 1 foreigner lost in the first round, pathetic. Koreans are working their ass off to get into code a/s, foreigners in no way deserve a free be in. Like someone else said, it seems the foreigner community is all about the money, which is understandable, yet pathetic at the same time.
I'd hardly call Moonglade and Haypro as top foreigners to be honest.And Ret was really unlucky.The fact that SC2 is so luckbased and has so many random factors makes code A really hard to qualify for.Stop talking bullshit like you have any idea about this game. I'd sure as hell expect them to invite foreigners to their tournaments because we do the same. You think foreigners don't work their asses off practicing? I'm so sick and tired of ppl like you because I know that whatever I say you will never ever understand. Such ignorance...
On May 18 2011 07:44 infinity2k9 wrote: While i agree the Code A -> Code S bottleneck is kinda silly, isn't it unfair to just throw a load of foreigners into things unless they change the whole format? Maybe you could say it doesn't matter how people got in but it does seem weird if it was like this and wouldn't Korean players be disgruntled by it..
Of course the whole format has to be changed. Make it a 64-man tournament, maybe top 4 are seeds from the previous GSL, and the rest drawn from qualifiers. Maybe initially have 5 or 6 spots from foreigner qualifiers and see where it goes from there. The rest can be from Korean qualifiers. If they could ever work out some kind of accurate ranking system, you can invite a X number of players based on their current ranking like how Tennis invites players based on their ATP ranks. If you can't find 5 or 6 foreigners that can be competitive in that format, I am sure GSL will move back into being Koreans only anyways.
It's clear from posts made by the FXO people that NA viewers make up the majority of the stream audience. GOM must know this too, which is why they want foreigners. It'd be awesome if all foreigners gathered in LA or Stockholm and we had live events, but I fear there's too many steps logistically towards that goal, and I am not entirely convinced the viewership numbers would improve that much.
On May 18 2011 06:58 Pies wrote: unfortunately for you, korea does not care what you think, they will run their tournament the way they want with the format they want. What gives you the audacity to believe you could manage the worlds best sc2 tournament.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
Do you realize how different it is to have the GSL in Korea and how unrealistic it is to do that in Europe or America? They're MUCH bigger (geographically) than Korea.
It's not my problem. YOU, and the other people/organizations who form the foreign scene, need to come up with something. You need to meet and come up with an agreement. Teams having team houses in the same place would have been a good start. Unfortunately, it seems that nobody talks to nodoby, every organization does its thing in its corner.
They don't have to "come up with something" so that they can be just like GSL. The whole point of this thread is that he doesn't think the GSL model works for the rest of the world. It's just silly saying, all of the western world needs to turn into Korea and if they don't it's their damn problem.
If the _GLOBAL_ star league wants to actually be global, they need a model that doesn't just work for Korea.
What people are saying is that this whole MLG/GSL collaboration thing is partly because Korean pro-gamers are dissatisfied that it's hard for them to play in foreign tournament. How many interviews have we seen like with the IM team where people are saying they want to play in foreign tournaments. This is a GSL problem and they're trying to help progamers but it's not enough.
So if I understand this correctly, does this mean that Korean players prefer to participate in events smaller and of shorter duration, rather than regular leagues?
edit: I'm going to read this thread again, the answer is probably there
On May 18 2011 07:47 Kazang wrote: I think it comes down to the simple fact that Korean tournaments expect you live or stay in Korea for extended periods of time. Whereas western tournaments are at most 5 days long.
It just isn't viable for western players to up and move to Korea.
Western tournaments expect players to just turn up for one week or weekend. Consider the MLG/GLS swap.
Koreans come compete in a prestigious one weekend tournament, all expenses paid, with a $14k in prize pool. That can get $400 just for turning up if they are a registered pro. It is also a double elimination tournament too so they have to lose at least twice to be knocked out. There is literally no downside to that at all even if they don't win anything.
But Western players have to live in Korea for at least a month, accommodation and travel expenses are paid for but players still have to pay normal expenses of living in a foreign country, and just to compete for a spot in Code S. Nothing is guaranteed and the Code A winner gets a measly $1.4k. Code A is a single elimination format which means players could lose a single Bo3 and be out.
That's so bad it seems wrong to even compare them.
14k? is that the entire prize pool for the tournament? because the winner gets 5k i know that. if so it really isnt that far off from code a.....
Code a is 11,520 but isnt as top heavy, there are also far less people competing in the tournament so your chances of doing better are greater and you guaranteed get 200 bucks (obviously not great but its something) and then the code s prize pool is something like 125k. I dont see why people keep saying western players have to live in korea for at least a month and then put in the same sentance that nothing is guaranteed or they probably wont get very far. If you get out in the first week you dont have to stick around you can leave. If you go far its probably worth it, if you make it to the top 2 your chances of getting into code s are pretty decent as you get to pick your opponents as well.
Also you say this "But Western players have to live in Korea for at least a month, accommodation and travel expenses are paid for but players still have to pay normal expenses of living in a foreign country, "
But you should read the interview with MLG lee, its an all expenses paid trip to korea for one month, that is worth far far more than going to MLG for a weekend even if you win its probably of similair value, again just for all the people that keep stating that it sucks for non koreans because they will have expenses in korea, ITS ALL EXPENSES PAID! read the interview with MLG lee.
Good points made. The only thing I disagree with is making Code A online, thats part of what makes GSL awesome is the live atmosphere. When a tournament is online it loses some of that. (Personal preference here I just enjoy watching things done live and in person)
I'm really against having more online tournaments. If online tournaments and casting from replays are what is the most profitable in the West, then so be it but please don't ask the Korean scene to bow down to that standard. I don't think any other e-sports takes online tournaments as seriously as SC2. For most of them, it's all about being there live, with a crowd, nerves and all with the lag factor taken out as much as possible.
The Korean model of spacing matches out is really much better for viewing, and allows players to prepare properly for each match. However, that doesn't work in an offline tournament unless there's a LOT of money, or everyone lives reasonably close to the studio...
On May 18 2011 08:03 kheldorin wrote: I'm really against having more online tournaments. If online tournaments and casting from replays are what is the most profitable in the West, then so be it but please don't ask the Korean scene to bow down to that standard. I don't think any other e-sports takes online tournaments as seriously as SC2. For most of them, it's all about being there live, with a crowd, nerves and all with the lag factor taken out as much as possible.
I agree, if it works for the west, then so be it like you said. It is by far not the most succesfull business model and in my oppinion has a far lower cieling of potential viewers that would be/ could get interested in it. Offline tournaments have so much more excitement its live you get to see the hype videos interviews nice studio , the reactions of the players as they win or lose, its just overall way better i doubt anyone prefers watching online tournaments.
On May 18 2011 07:16 AlBundy wrote: I agree that Code S and Code A formats are not optimal, but it's getting there. With a few tweaks it can become even better. I believe that imitating BW proleague and starleague formats could be the right move.
But moreso I'm tired of reading the same bullshit everytime there's a scheduling conflict. Korea is not the problem, but as you are from the NA scene, you can't understand that.
I'll tell you, the FOREIGN SCENE GOT A PROBLEM ! What's up with these shitty 3 day tournaments every once in a while? Looks more like a fucking fun fair than a serious tournament. Also what's up with these shitty online tournaments? You think NASL and EG Masters cup are the real deal?
There's one thing you don't seem to understand, Korea is doing it RIGHT. Koreans KNOW how to set up esports events and tournaments. BW starleague and proleague format are the BEST formats for competitive RTS.
Is it the koreans' fault that foreign teams and foreign tournament organizers failed to set up a regular scene, featuring regular offline tournaments? Is it the koreans' fault that the foreign scene is too scattered?
The more I read this forums, the more I feel that foreign scene is all about the MONEY, the EASY MONEY. Making the most money with the least dedication needed. That's just too sad.
Also online tournaments are NOT THE WAY TO GO. Wake up, dude! Korea is the #1 esports country, maybe they're doing something right, aren't they?
The only one that got a problem seems to be you. The Esport scene growing at a rapid rate in EU and NA atm and its partly becuase of those "fun fairs"
And just my input if the korean scene wants the best players from EU NA like White-ra, Idra, Dimaga, Thozain, Naniwa, kas etc they need to come up with some shorter tournaments.
This is just my personal thoughts and feelings on things regarding Korea.
We have found out that the practice would be really poor if you lived in the GOM house with other foreigners and not in a house with koreans who are in Code S like the oGs/TL house. If you are eliminated early you have like a month of dead time to kill in a country where you doesn't know anyone and there is a huge language barrier. You have no chance to play any other tournies and earn some money and you will probably just play ladder and customs with your house mates and that won't make your chances to go far in Code A any bigger just because you're doing it in Korea.
And even if you lived in an korean prohouse I personaly would not have the mentality to stay there long. I'm a guy that needs some own time and a personal space, in a house like that you won't get that. You will sleep in a room full with bunk beds and guys, I bet I'm not the only one who is like this. When I watch videos Artosis uploads from all the prohouses I think it all looks so depressing, but hey thats me. Some people may think it's awesome living with a bunch of guys you barely can talk with and play Starcraft a shitload of hours and having some chick cook and clean everything for you.
Is it really worth for a top tier player in EU/NA to give up pretty much his whole life (family, friends, social life and his personal space) for going to Korea to MAYBE have a shot at the big juicy price pool you get when you finish in the top of Code S? I personally don't think so since he already cash in so much money from everything here alreday.
I agree about the whole live being better thing. But at the end of the day unfortunately it all comes down to money and people living from gaming. When you get so many people together to one location to play, even if you make a very generous spread of money for the placements, some people are gonna always not have enough to live from.
Let's just say a month long tournament started in the US with everything live and people living there for the duration. Prehaps 16 people would place high enough to pay for their costs and more. That leaves 48 people who don't earn their costs. Some might get paid by their teams to make up the costs but at the end of the day if you don't place high enough it's simply not going to work. You might say that's fair, because they didn't place high enough, but in a stable scene everyone should earn enough to at least live and compete. It needs salaries for this to work at all, prize money does not make a stable scene i'm afraid.
The BW scene has MSL/OSL and always the Proleague to contribute games for your team, meaning placing high in individual tournaments isn't needed at all (ask Sea[shield]). Until there's a location which offers these multiple opportunities salaries from teams then everything is going to be scattered all over the place like it is now.
I don't like the title of this thread.. it would be so easy for Gom to just focus solely on Korea and wait for SC2 to grow a bit before moving onto bigger things. They are going out of their way to reach out to foreigners and help E-sports grow globally AND locally, which is extremely ambitious given the game is less than a year old. Granted, things aren't perfect and a lot of your suggestions are great, but we have to be patient. There's just not enough money to do everything well.
Personally i don't care where a player is from, i don't see why people are so infatuated with players just because they might hail from a country that isn't Korea. I wouldn't get any more pleasure out of watching, GSL just because a player isn't Korean. Really annoying mentality people on this site have.
Making Code A an online tournament would completely ruin everything. I don't care about online tournaments anymore, this isn't the beta. Online results vary wildly, where as "Lan" results are much more consistent. Its the reason i'm not as invested in TSL, NASL, IPL, i watch these games with about as much interest as players streaming ladder games.
Also giving a Code S spot isn't something that GSL is really capable of doing. MLG extended its groups from 4 to 5 players, it wasn't that hard to accomplish to find 4 Koreans willing to play an overseas tournament for a few days. Where as if they just give code S spots, they have to find 8 + Show Spoiler +
(to match with the # of Groups Code S Ro32)
players to go play for a much longer amount of time.
Also Last time GSL gave away spots to foreigners, they crashed and burned. Huk was the only one who as able to capitalize.
Giving the winner of MLG Code S makes perfect sense. It is very easy to get knocked out of Code S, and if they get knocked out they go down to Code A..which was the original prize intended for winning MLG in the exchange. Besides, looking at last MLG's winner, who wouldn't want to see how well Naniwa would fair in Code S? Great writeup Xeris
First off, making GSL an online tourney is never going to happen. It just is not the way to increase / advance the SC2 scene in Korea. You have to understand that when it comes to a decision to appeal between Korean or foriegn fan bases, it's Korea > the rest.
Secondly, the GSL will never be a tourney which a player can simply walk in, win the prize money, and move on to the next tourney. The goal of the GSL (other than make money) is to establish itself as the premier SC2 tournament amongst all. With this in mind, the player's perspective should be that participating in the GSL should not be a way to make a big bucks, but rather it should be a challenge to get to the very top of the world. From the sponsor's perspective, it should be an investment and a project to send a player to Korea for an extended period of time. Imagine how much sweet it would be to see names like Fnatic.TT1 or EG.Idra at the very best of the Code S. One problem with this is that you can make a good argument that GSL is yet the clear cut above the rest of the world, but it looks like it's only a matter of time until Korea pulls away (again) as more money and resources will be poured into the SC2 infrastructure in Korea.
On May 18 2011 08:16 insidethesun wrote: Giving the winner of MLG Code S makes perfect sense. It is very easy to get knocked out of Code S, and if they get knocked out they go down to Code A..which was the original prize intended for winning MLG in the exchange. Besides, looking at last MLG's winner, who wouldn't want to see how well Naniwa would fair in Code S? Great writeup Xeris
Yeah because a Round of 33 is really logical.
I don't understand what you people are thinking, What?? they just kick out some unlucky Code S Korean to code A again? What about the unlucky Code A player that drops to Code B?
Its very hard to add players to GSL's current system. Groups of 8 are necessary.
On May 18 2011 07:47 Kazang wrote: I think it comes down to the simple fact that Korean tournaments expect you live or stay in Korea for extended periods of time. Whereas western tournaments are at most 5 days long.
It just isn't viable for western players to up and move to Korea.
Western tournaments expect players to just turn up for one week or weekend. Consider the MLG/GLS swap.
Koreans come compete in a prestigious one weekend tournament, all expenses paid, with a $14k in prize pool. That can get $400 just for turning up if they are a registered pro. It is also a double elimination tournament too so they have to lose at least twice to be knocked out. There is literally no downside to that at all even if they don't win anything.
But Western players have to live in Korea for at least a month, accommodation and travel expenses are paid for but players still have to pay normal expenses of living in a foreign country, and just to compete for a spot in Code S. Nothing is guaranteed and the Code A winner gets a measly $1.4k. Code A is a single elimination format which means players could lose a single Bo3 and be out.
That's so bad it seems wrong to even compare them.
14k? is that the entire prize pool for the tournament? because the winner gets 5k i know that. if so it really isnt that far off from code a.....
Code a is 11,520 but isnt as top heavy, there are also far less people competing in the tournament so your chances of doing better are greater and you guaranteed get 200 bucks (obviously not great but its something) and then the code s prize pool is something like 125k. I dont see why people keep saying western players have to live in korea for at least a month and then put in the same sentance that nothing is guaranteed or they probably wont get very far. If you get out in the first week you dont have to stick around you can leave. If you go far its probably worth it, if you make it to the top 2 your chances of getting into code s are pretty decent as you get to pick your opponents as well.
I said 1.4k because I don't know what the entire prize pool for Code A is.
What's your source for the 11,520? I couldn't find anything on the GomTV site about the size of the Code A pool. If there is a minimum of 200 that isn't so bad.
They still have to stay another month even if they get into Code S, and it is the time factor that is a problem. Living a foreign country for that amount of time is difficult.
Well, I agree with most of this stuff save for one point You mention the super tournament coinciding with MLG Well personally, I feel SC2 needs to transition more the way Koreans prepare for BW tourneys They should spend all their time preparing for A single tournament, not trying to win 2 This would allow for a higher level of competitive play
Personally, I think Gretech or rather Blizzard Korea are going to be in a difficult spot in about a year, for these reasons.
1) The GSL is the only major StarCraft II league going on in South Korea, which is disappointing considering the huge history of e-sports and particularly Brood War in SK. You can pretty much blame the exclusivity deal between Blizzard and Gretech for this!
2) The actual amount of success the GSL has recieved in Korea. It's been nowhere near as popular as Brood War has been, despite the now hugely dated 1997 graphics of the latter game. And this could be for two main reasons, either A) The contoversy surrounding the (now settled) Blizzard/KeSPA lawsuit or B) The fact that Gretech have an exclusivity deal for e-sports televising in South Korea, it only being aired for a few hours a day on a cable channel when Brood War matches were pretty much casted 24/7 on some more freely available channels, which is going back to Point #1
3) The fact that GOM Player is REQUIRED to watch the livestream for the GSL. Well, it wasn't always required until this change was made in a draconian way which hurt the experiences of a lot of Mac/Linux viewers who at the time couldn't use GOM Player (Linux viewers now still can't view the GSL livestream.)
Plus others like myself would perfer not to download their application in order to view their stream. It's the same reason why I only watched the MLG livestream for Dallas 2011 because the low quality stream no longer required the OctoShape plugin.
I am aware that GOM Player has some popularity in South Korea but this more impacts those outside South Korea, who would rather use other programs like VLC to watch the livestream.
4) This particularly goes for foreign viewers but the livestreaming times are ridiculously bad for Western viewers. American audiences have to watch the GSL at like 3 - 4am whereas European viewers have to watch it at about 9am - 12pm
The whine about Koreans owning MLG or whatnot is totally sadface silly... seriously what kind of people are in the foreign scene when they WANT quality on-par with Korea, yet no one wants to practice asmuch as they do or even try to perform as they do? If foreigners are afraid of Koreans winning everything then they do not deserve to win it themselves; The people who practice the most and play the best should win. There is no excuse. Yeah get a team house, practice alot, perhaps not Kespa-alot with 16 hours a day training but still fearing that Koreans will outclass westerners in every MLG/NASL/EU even is a fucking sham. Don't play then. Because I don't want to pay for the NASL/GSL if my money goes to foreigners who think they don't have to work as hard for the money as koreans do.
how is this the Korean problem and not the Foreigner problem?
aren't the same issues faced by a European player who speaks no English moving to America for tournaments? or an American or Korean player who speaks no Swedish moving to Sweden?
you mention things like only giving 3 weeks notice to plan travel arrangements, but what about online tournaments like NASL which screwed up scheduling and made Korean players sit around waiting 3 hours at 4am just to say their opponent won't show up?
these aren't issues with Korea. these are issues any e-sport will face when going global. and it's not a problem that GOM is making arrangements with MLG. it's a brand new venture for both companies and there will obviously be rough times getting it started up, but in the end it'll be good for SC2, good for GOM, good for MLG, good for e-sports, good for KR, good for NA, good for the players, good for the fans... how is this a problem? oh no, they haven't executed to perfection a brand new venture that hasn't even started yet, let's blog about how big of a problem it is! how about waiting to see how it affects MLG and the Super Tournament before criticizing it? how about giving the people taking a huge risk a decent chance at doing something good for the game before dismissing them?
why not criticize the players who turn down the opportunity to play overseas and instead spend more attention praising the ones who are willing to represent their teams and countries in foreign tournaments?
I don't really see anything drastic that needs to be changed except maybe more tournaments in KR. So that the foreigners flying out aren't in a "put-eggs-in-one-basket" situation. With more tournaments then prize and difficulty wouldn't be so much of an issue.
I really would like to see more foreigners in KR and koreans participating in foreign tourneys as well on a level playing field (same server/no lag issues). However, I like that Code S GSL is the hardest and most competitive league in the world atm with the greatest prize pool. The difficulty to maintaining and qualifying for Code S should be seen as an accomplishment. Is winning Code A more difficult than maintaining Code S? (If it is, then the player should be in Code S anyways, but they're not so... its hard to gauge )
I hope they restrict and really evaluate how they give out "Free invites to code S". At most, I hope just 1 or 2 through collaborations between major tourneys in the region.
Pretty much agree with everything you said xeris. I hope the GSL will live up to their name as the global starcraft league. Not hating on GOM or Korea at all, I just want e-sports to thrive as much as possible.
I really wish we could see more nonkoreans in the GSL, but like many others have said it's expensive and they don't get much money unless they do really well. I think that korea is THE place if you want to prove that you're one of the best in the world though. The practice there probably helps a ton too.
someone open a foreigners house/team in korea, with korean style coaching and practice. foreigners going to korea have be able to perform and practices as koreans do if they expect to get ahead. a foot in the door is only good if you plan on walking through it if you know what i mean..
On May 18 2011 08:47 eggs wrote: how is this the Korean problem and not the Foreigner problem?
aren't the same issues faced by a European player who speaks no English moving to America for tournaments? or an American or Korean player who speaks no Swedish moving to Sweden?
you mention things like only giving 3 weeks notice to plan travel arrangements, but what about online tournaments like NASL which screwed up scheduling and made Korean players sit around waiting 3 hours at 4am just to say their opponent won't show up?
these aren't issues with Korea. these are issues any e-sport will face when going global. and it's not a problem that GOM is making arrangements with MLG. it's a brand new venture for both companies and there will obviously be rough times getting it started up, but in the end it'll be good for SC2, good for GOM, good for MLG, good for e-sports, good for KR, good for NA, good for the players, good for the fans... how is this a problem? oh no, they haven't executed to perfection a brand new venture that hasn't even started yet, let's blog about how big of a problem it is! how about waiting to see how it affects MLG and the Super Tournament before criticizing it? how about giving the people taking a huge risk a decent chance at doing something good for the game before dismissing them?
why not criticize the players who turn down the opportunity to play overseas and instead spend more attention praising the ones who are willing to represent their teams and countries in foreign tournaments?
I agree with this post. I think the process to truly making SC2 global or having a league with the best of the best should rest on the shoulders of all the people involved, foreign or not. Well, just so happens, the koreans are still generally better so it is of course not uncommon to see more koreans at the top.
Honestly it really has more to do with the fact that moving to korea alienates you from competing in a lot of the other tournaments. What is essentially being compared is the korean SC2 market to that of the rest of the world. Even if there are more mini-tournaments in korea, it won't change the fact that there will be more opportunities in the foreign scene. You simply can't expect one nation to match this huge disparity in aggregated economy and population interested in SC2.
In fact at this point I don't see much that GOM can do to bring more foreigners into korea. On SoTG Idra stated that he will not compete in GSL even if he was given that free Code S spot + all expenses paid covered trip for a whole month for the reason I have stated before. He is justified but I mean what more can GOM do to reel in high-profile progamers such as himself? Free seeding into ro4 of Code S? That makes no sense. He has a better chance in foreign tournaments and there are a lot more opportunities for him to compete in.
The way I see it, the only incentive for people to go to Korea now is if you have a genuine interest in Korean culture and want the experience of living a pro-gamer life in the place where it all started.
If you're simply hoping to compete in a lot of tournaments and make a lot of money, for most progamers, going to Korea would not be the ideal choice.
Korea is sort of the "last level" of the SC2 Competitive Scene Video game. If you're winning in Korea, then you know you're on top. It's always been sort of exclusive to the rest of the foreign community because, well, it can be. I don't think the smaller number of foreigners is a bad thing. It promotes the migration of only the best of the best to Korea.
Go to korea to prove yourself the best, if all you want is money, you don't go. It's as simple as that. If you want to become an sc2 bonjwa, or prove that you're the best of the best, you will go. If right now your priorities are towards making smaller winnings, or finances, than Korea isn't right for you, that's basically what it boils down to. My question is where is the pride in our foreigners.
On May 18 2011 09:06 JoeSchmoe wrote: Honestly it really has more to do with the fact that moving to korea alienates you from competing in a lot of the other tournaments. What is essentially being compared is the korean SC2 market to that of the rest of the world. Even if there are more mini-tournaments in korea, it won't change the fact that there will be more opportunities in the foreign scene. You simply can't expect one nation to match this huge disparity in aggregated economy and population interested in SC2.
In fact at this point I don't see much that GOM can do to bring more foreigners into korea. On SoTG Idra stated that he will not compete in GSL even if he was given that free Code S spot + all expenses paid covered trip for a whole month for the reason I have stated before. He is justified but I mean what more can GOM do to reel in high-profile progamers such as himself? Free seeding into ro4 of Code S? That makes no sense. He has a better chance in foreign tournaments and there are a lot more opportunities for him to compete in.
The way I see it, the only incentive for people to go to Korea now is if you have a genuine interest in Korean culture and want the experience of living a pro-gamer life in the place where it all started.
If you're simply hoping to compete in a lot of tournaments and make a lot of money, for most progamers, going to Korea would not be the ideal choice.
I agree with this. Simply put, the opportunity costs are too great. Another thing I would like to add is that being a top level gamer outside Korea gives you no guarantees that you will be successful there. There are too many good players in Korea competing for prizes. Less competition & more money outside Korea, not to mention that the scene is growing rapidly. It will be interesting to see how the Korean invites will do in MLG; if they have success, I can see a lot of Korean gamers venturing outside Korea in all the big tournaments ala ST.Ace, Moon.
The scene needs to grow in Korea. I'm not sure how the new KESPA & Blizzard agreement will affect SC2 for Ongamenet & MBC Game, but if things remain the same, I can't see big incentives for foreigners to move there.
To be honest I don't really care that much about korean sc2. It's just not interesting to me as I think the foreigners can play at a level that at least comes very close to the top of the korean community. And since I know the back story to most foreigners and it's a lot easier to figure out stuff / go through interviews with them I find it a lot more interesting to follow. So I don't really mind if a BW scenario were to pop up where the Koreans do their thing and the foreigners to their thing.
However I do get that the players especially get pissed over the MLG partnership because it's just plain unfair but to be honest it's not the biggest deal to me as a spectator.
If you are succesful in Korea though it would make you more money than any of these foreigner events. The Koreans seem to do fine enough in the NASL as well so if you get used to the latency perhaps you could win even more.
I don't like loser attitude many foreigner pros seem to have like "If koreans come to MLG they'll win it every time" or "If I go to korea there is no chance of me making money =(((" I don't think they are better than foreigner players, maybe some are, but not that big of a gap yet. InCa made it to the GSL finals ffs xD
I do understand though however if you have obligations like work/school casting etc etc or if you just like the foreigner scene more sure stay by all means but don't keep saying it's because you'll just do bad vs koreans that is a terrible attitude to have when playing professionally.
Also it can't be that bad for organizations to have some people over there as the foreigner scene will follow the foreigners like a stalker when they participate in the GSL. I didn't care much for HuK before he went to Korea but now I'm a fan and I give him mad props for staying in Code S, hopefully he'll do well there. Same for Jinro although it's been going worse recently I'll be cheering him on in the Code A.
I do understand though however if you have obligations like work/school casting etc etc or if you just like the foreigner scene more sure stay by all means ...
I'd argue that if this is your situation and you're not already one of the best (NaDa) than you're not ready to go to Korea for the right reasons. Koreans sacrifice their LIVES to become progamers in scbw, if you want to win, and you want to win consistently, you need to make the sacrifice, and put forth the work to do it. You shouldn't expect to do well in ANY tournament if it's not your focus, the fact that people do just shows how lackadaisical the sc2 scene can be.
A lot of good replies here, let me offer my two cents.
I think this could be solved by thinking a bit outside the box. For example:
1) Set a rule that requires GSL teams to have at least X (maybe 2) foreigners. This has been done in sports before and, while I am not sure GSL teams would be happy about it, might just work.
2) Set a rule that requires GSL teams to have a foreign team as a GSL partner, OGS-TLAF style. Which is a possibly more palatable version of option 1).
It would be helpful to know what teams actually offer a wage to players and how much (roughly) they pay though. I mean if players are not willing to go due to financial reasons, it must mean that they don't get paid much by their team no?
I do understand though however if you have obligations like work/school casting etc etc or if you just like the foreigner scene more sure stay by all means ...
I'd argue that if this is your situation and you're not already one of the best (NaDa) than you're not ready to go to Korea for the right reasons. Koreans sacrifice their LIVES to become progamers in scbw, if you want to win, and you want to win consistently, you need to make the sacrifice, and put forth the work to do it. You shouldn't expect to do well in ANY tournament if it's not your focus, the fact that people do just shows how lackadaisical the sc2 scene can be.
Well isn't MKP kinda doing that now for SC2 but you are right about sacrificing a "normal" job to go play a game for a living.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote: So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
Where to even begin...actually, I won't.
Stop throwing random statements like they mean something.
I would DARE to say that we can't necessarily take inControL, IdrA, and Tyler's opinion as the gold standard just because InControL has his own commitments with NASL and his gf back in America, same with Tyler and his wife, and IdrA LEFT korea because he wanted something new, why would he suddenly go back.
As for foreigners not getting any invities to anything, that's absurd. Code A has already had a bunch of invites. You might complain why it's "only" Code A, but hey, even the invitees can't even make it past sometimes, how do you warrant them getting a straight Code S when they'll probably just go to the up/down matches immediately.
Tyler brings up a good point with the bracket and points. Perhaps Koreans have to advance a certain amount before getting any points?
Actually the top finishing foreigner in the top 3 will get into code S.
Sorry Xeris but this write-up was not well thought out. If there is no foreigner in the top 3, a 4th code A spot will be handed out as well. GOM is not at fault for the price of travel. They are doing what they can.
Foreign audiences deserve a foreign player worth being a fan of and we have yet seen no one of that calibre. Idra being held as one of the top foreigners shows the sad state of western starcraft.
But thankfully we've got some up and comers on the horizon who are putting in the training and it's started to show in their results.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote: So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
Where to even begin...actually, I won't.
Stop throwing random statements like they mean something.
you're nitpicking on a single line from his whole argument which isn't too far off the mark. stop derailing an otherwise useful discussion.
i agree with what xeris has outlined.. but i think it'll take a bit of restructuring of the whole GSL to make it realistic. frankly i feel invites into code s, or invites into champ bracket of MLG just isn't "fair" to the locals. there are so many who have to fight through open brackets in MLG or code b/a just to get a shot at a decent prize pool, so if these invites are actually highly skilled, they should have to go through the qualifications anyways. the only problem here is that the GSL lasts a month, compared to a 3 day MLG, which means a lot less commitment on behalf of the koreans. of course i think this can be remedied either by restructuring the GSL, or simply having more tournaments in korea (which is completely out of our hands).
perhaps we'll see some foreigners make the move over to take the risk that there will be more tournaments popping out now that the kespa-blizz shenanigans are over, and going over there to establish yourself now can mean great payoffs later on rather than having to start new a few months down the line... but it's a huge risk not necessarily worth taking considering the scene out here nowadays.
On May 18 2011 09:24 Kazeyonoma wrote: Go to korea to prove yourself the best, if all you want is money, you don't go. It's as simple as that. If you want to become an sc2 bonjwa, or prove that you're the best of the best, you will go. If right now your priorities are towards making smaller winnings, or finances, than Korea isn't right for you, that's basically what it boils down to. My question is where is the pride in our foreigners.
Pride doesn't pay the bills. If you read the Op you'd see more reasons why it's a bit more difficult than just getting on a plane.
Korea has a big supertournament with the biggest prizes each month. Its only worth it if you are top 5 foreigner, because you have a legit chance at winning. If you are not, then yes its not worth it to live there for the sake of winning money, but instead you can look at it as an experience that includes a new culture, fun, and recognition, and getting better. Yes you can get better, by some sort of team partnership to practice with each other, like how team liquid and ogs do it.
The way E-sports is going to work is that because there isnt enough salary and money involved in this young sport yet, that it is generally not worth making a trip to live elsewhere far away. What will happen is that there will be a Korea league and a foreigner scene. And once a year they will clash and fight for a big tournament prize. This makes sense. Win for everyone really. THEN eventually after a few years hopefully players will make big enough salaries and there will be more incentive to globalize and therefore have a true foreigner group of houses that play together with koreans and participate in the GSL.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote: So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
Where to even begin...actually, I won't.
Stop throwing random statements like they mean something.
Hey that's his company's problem that they didn't do a qualifier for koreans.
Tyler brings up a good point with the bracket and points. Perhaps Koreans have to advance a certain amount before getting any points?
That should apply to everyone, or just get rid of mlg's championship pool. Its a joke, because they arent even going to the 16 best players and once you get in its a huge advantage for staying in.
This reluctance just hurts the foreign gamers because code s is definitely where the money is. How much have MC, MVP, Nestea, or fruitdealer made compared to the top foreigners that havent gone to korea? Or even some guys who dont get the far like kyrix, Top, Anypro or thewind. I'd bet they have won more since release than every single player who hasnt been in the gsl. If you want to make it big in sc2, take the risk, go to korea and beat the best. If not, then keep winning weekly tournaments for 100 and stop whining.
Gom already has done enough with the free invites for foreigners to Code A. Huk says hi. They provide a house for foreigners so you dont have to worry about accomadations. IM's coach says he wants foreigners on his team so get good enough that he can't say no to you. The opportunity is there. Seize it or dont.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote: So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
Where to even begin...actually, I won't.
Stop throwing random statements like they mean something.
you're nitpicking on a single line from his whole argument which isn't too far off the mark. stop derailing an otherwise useful discussion.
Xeris, another thing that I would like GOM to do is reduce the Code S top prize by $10K and place that directly into Code A split between top 4 players. This should help a bit more to promote more players coming in. I know if i was a pro foreigner I would hate to go to Korea and know I wont make any money unless I get top 8 in Code S or win Code A.
There is one key factor that this really boils down to...money. Hate to say it, but it doesn't matter where you are, the best players will go where the money is. If esports becomes as big in the States or Europe as it was in Korea (sponserships and payouts) then the best Korean players would be coming overseas to play, no question. I think GOMTV knows this and that's why the partnership with MLG is so shrewd--they know the big time money is overseas. The partnership does actually award a code S spot. In short, this post isn't really about Korea, it is about premier play. It will come as esports grows in the West.
i would rather see an open qualifier... even then, the latency might be another problem, but i personally would lose a lot of interest in having a code a online tourney.
Also, to be honest i think that inviting foreigners to code s is a bit much, maybe code a, because if they can't win there first match in code a atleast to stay in, do they really deserve it?
i think that making more strides to be the global tourney is important, but not at the risk of legitimacy, and although i don't know everything about preparing to send players to korea, i think that 2-3 months notice is a bit much to ask.
I agree it would be cool to see more tournaments pop up in korea though, that would definitely make it less of a risky choice for foreigners
On May 18 2011 07:05 Xeris wrote: Hey -- you guys are right! I totally forgot that 4 foreign players were invited to Code A. However, I think my point generally still stands.
"There isn't a lot of propose solutions to your criticisms. Code A online would be horrible, I just don't see that working at all. And the your proposed solution to direct invite to code S is already a reality with the first place in MLG getting a spot."
How would Code A online be horrible? If you want to make an outlandish claim like that you should at least explain it...
i wouldn't say horrible, but i can say that it would personally lessen my interest as a viewer. i watch NASL, but i still consider gsl my go to tourney, and when the NASL finals pop up, i'm going to have a lot more interest in it
On May 18 2011 09:34 Kentakky wrote: If you are succesful in Korea though it would make you more money than any of these foreigner events. The Koreans seem to do fine enough in the NASL as well so if you get used to the latency perhaps you could win even more.
I don't like loser attitude many foreigner pros seem to have like "If koreans come to MLG they'll win it every time" or "If I go to korea there is no chance of me making money =(((" I don't think they are better than foreigner players, maybe some are, but not that big of a gap yet. InCa made it to the GSL finals ffs xD
I do understand though however if you have obligations like work/school casting etc etc or if you just like the foreigner scene more sure stay by all means but don't keep saying it's because you'll just do bad vs koreans that is a terrible attitude to have when playing professionally.
Also it can't be that bad for organizations to have some people over there as the foreigner scene will follow the foreigners like a stalker when they participate in the GSL. I didn't care much for HuK before he went to Korea but now I'm a fan and I give him mad props for staying in Code S, hopefully he'll do well there. Same for Jinro although it's been going worse recently I'll be cheering him on in the Code A.
I agree with you completely. It's like they say it's not worth their time to stay in Korea for a month because most likely they will come out with nothing; which is so sad with that mentality. Winning in Korea gives you the most potential to earn the most prize money. I'd like to see a comparison of the top earners of each month with the foreigners. Looking at the monthly tournament roundup thread, GSL winners make more.
On May 18 2011 09:24 Kazeyonoma wrote: Go to korea to prove yourself the best, if all you want is money, you don't go. It's as simple as that. If you want to become an sc2 bonjwa, or prove that you're the best of the best, you will go. If right now your priorities are towards making smaller winnings, or finances, than Korea isn't right for you, that's basically what it boils down to. My question is where is the pride in our foreigners.
Pride doesn't pay the bills. If you read the Op you'd see more reasons why it's a bit more difficult than just getting on a plane.
You can work at a regular job and make more than some of the top non korean players. You are pretty much sacrificing and dedicating yourself to become a progamer to begin with. Atleast dedicate it for something you can make out better than if you were to work normally. Or you can be in it just for the competition but hopefully it's not for paying the bills.
On May 18 2011 10:40 illsick wrote: You can work at a regular job and make more than some of the top non korean players. You are pretty much sacrificing and dedicating yourself to become a progamer to begin with. Atleast dedicate it for something you can make out better than if you were to work normally. Or you can be in it just for the competition but hopefully it's not for paying the bills.
The point is though, why do players go to Korea if they aren't going to make money? So they can play in the best tourney in the world. Why is it the best? Because the absolute best players in the world play in it and value it above all others. Why do they value it above all others? Because the absolute premier players (MC, Nestea, MVP) will make the most money from sponsorship/cash prizes than at any other tournament. It does boil down to money for the best of the absolute frickin best and therefore for everyone else.
On May 18 2011 10:32 Cartel wrote: Xeris, another thing that I would like GOM to do is reduce the Code S top prize by $10K and place that directly into Code A split between top 4 players. This should help a bit more to promote more players coming in. I know if i was a pro foreigner I would hate to go to Korea and know I wont make any money unless I get top 8 in Code S or win Code A.
You don't understand, Code S is meant to be the premier league. Unlike a part of the world I won't name specifically, Korea doesn't believe in charity and "everyone being a winner".
The whole purpose of Code A is to win it and get to Code S and fight your way there. Being in Code S already gives you a salary per month.
People need to stop saying that everyone will turn down the Code A invites. A lot of players like QXC have shown interest in going to Korea. It is easy for the people on SoTG to say they won't go because they have all been to Korea before, but I am sure a lot of the new players who are doing well would love to go. Sure they might miss out on a few tournaments for a month, but it is the experience of going to Korea that counts. Lets see what happens before we jump to conclusions.
I disagree with code A being an online tournament. Also, part of the superiority of the GSL is that players have to fight hard to get there - that means, each game is very meaningful and tension filled.
However, the problem with the GSL is that if you are eliminated early, there is nothing to do for a whole month. In my opinion, the only to solve this issue is that there are more tournaments run by other organisations.
Also, another thing that will help is if the prizes were more evenly distributed. I feel GSL is too top-heavy.
I've mentioned this before, but the only real problem I (and many others have noted) see is the lack of other tournaments in Korea. If there was something to bide the time for spending a month in Korea, I wouldn't consider the commitment too great or prize pool for Code A to be too low for instance. Since there isn't really anything outside of hoping for Code S, I really think the MLG/GSL exchange program should only keep the Code S seed and scrap the Code A seeding (I will find it very difficult to believe any of the top 4 who aren't Koreans would bother with that, and "yes" there is a possibility that SOME players like Qxc and maybe even Kiwi would accept the offer, but I can't see it being a consistent thing).
Side note: Code A shouldn't be an online tournament, I agree with others that state one of the key aspects that make GSL so special is that it's a live "LAN" tournament. Heck, it's what makes MLGs and events like Dreamhack just so much more enticing than online events to watch. I think the GSL chose an unfortunate name to call themselves global, I would be perfectly fine if it were the KSL.
Why not make Code A a 2-3 day tournament so combined with up/down it only lasts a week?
Length of time is the biggest problem for Code A, nobody wants to spend a month in it unable to play outside tournaments and looking at a very hard road to Code S. Making Code A 2-3 days makes it more equivalent to MLG in accessibility and generate very high viewer numbers for those three days. It may even cost Gom less money since they would only need to house the foreign players for a week max which would help balance out potential ad revenue lost.
Did anybody consider that the best solution to this problem is ....... for Korea to have more sc2 tournaments. If they had more tournaments you would not be giving up on so much to go there, but as it is now you only have GSL if you go there.
How can they get more tournaments? Well sc2 as an esports will have to grow in Korea. I do not know if this is feasible. GSL already produces almost as much content as BW does, and after 10 years BW is probably at a very suitable level of content for this type of game.
In my opinion there are also too many foreign tournaments ... I very much like how it is done in BW. If there could be the equivalent of content for europe/NA in SC2 as the Korea BW I think that would be awesome and then, all this multiculturalism and stuff is just not possible as long as latencies are as high as they are. Gonna have to talk to Bob Kotick about that.
Also, I think there is a lack of practice in the foreign world compared to Korea. Korea emphasizes heavily on "work very hard" and you will improve, so they practice like 12 hours a day 6 days a week. As for any other foreigner (besides the chinese perhaps), they wont be able to withstand that vigorous training schedule. Look at one of idras interview.. he was so glad he left CJ Entus so he could "practice" at his own pace, which probably meant practice less. I also remember reading Rekrul blog/post somewhere.. goes to korea inspired to be a pro gamer, but ends up playing poker during practice and dragging down players with him.
So its this "extra" practice that gives Koreans the advantage in tournaments and probably the reason they are doing considerably better than all the outsiders. Of course Blizzard made SC2 so noob friendly in order try and get foreigners to get up the the Korean standard, but it still shows.. practice will always preview.. Now all you foreign gamers, here is my strategy that is guarantee to beat Koreans off the top list. Instead of matching their training practice 12 hours a day for 6 days a week, do it for 13 hours a day for 7 days week.
On May 18 2011 11:02 iYiYi wrote: People need to stop saying that everyone will turn down the Code A invites. A lot of players like QXC have shown interest in going to Korea. It is easy for the people on SoTG to say they won't go because they have all been to Korea before, but I am sure a lot of the new players who are doing well would love to go. Sure they might miss out on a few tournaments for a month, but it is the experience of going to Korea that counts. Lets see what happens before we jump to conclusions.
I agree this is a silly point of view of just a few people. Its an all expenses payed trip to play with the best players in the world for one month , sounds alot better than when its coming fromm one of the negative nancies who try and downplay it doesnt it?
With 1 month its not like your giving up that much to go try it out its just a month, you can still participate in the NASL (there are 4 koreans and 1 player from taiwan all in the top 10) so i dont really see it being a huge issue. Especially considering MLG and GSL are working around each others schedules you will beable to attend both.
Its astonishing how many people are trying to turn such a positive thing (koreans and foreigneres interacting) into a hugely negative thing, its really disheartening I hope none of the pro's who would accept going to Korea would change there mind after this huge amount of negativity about it fromm the community.
GSL still has the biggest prize pool out of any tournament regardless of if its top heavy in code s and considerably less top heavy in code a. code a is still a 12,000 dollar prize pool tournament i honestly think that the bottomm 16 should get nothing and that money should be distributed among the top 4, it would mean alot more as 180 dollars for 16 players really isnt anything.
If we all keep being so negative about it, maybe gom wont get many foreigners (i hope something like a hugely negative community wouldnt change their mind but who knows) and thus they will not increase their viewership and then there is no hope for code a to get a better prize pool.
This opportunity from MLG should be looked at as a huge opportunity and all around positive program! It allows foreign players to experience korea all expenses paid and get a chance to see how they stack up to players on the other side of the world, what do you have to lose? You will still beable to do any online tournaments maybe at a bit of a disadvantage but i would argue that the experience is worth it, if you get knocked out in the first round, so be it you got an all expenses paid trip for a week in korea and you can return home to do what you were doing, if you get far and get a chance at code S that is also something positive.
How are people extracting so many negative aspects out of something that seems like such a great opportunity, your only there for a month if you get far in the tournament and the farther you get the bigger the chance you have of reaching code s so that would justify spending a month there, otherwise you leave after a week or 2 if you got knocked out in the first 2 rounds no harm no foul =/ come on guys
Perhaps the problem is with foreign teams not banding together to start a joint program in S Korea? If EG alone could contemplate starting a team house, would it not be possible for several teams to partner and make a house for the purposes of solving the problems of housing, and practice?
The OP does seem to make it appear the the oGs-Liquid alliance was a one time thing so maybe foreigner joint team house is the only option
On May 18 2011 11:25 prplhz wrote: Did anybody consider that the best solution to this problem is ....... for Korea to have more sc2 tournaments. If they had more tournaments you would not be giving up on so much to go there, but as it is now you only have GSL if you go there.
How can they get more tournaments? Well sc2 as an esports will have to grow in Korea. I do not know if this is feasible. GSL already produces almost as much content as BW does, and after 10 years BW is probably at a very suitable level of content for this type of game.
In my opinion there are also too many foreign tournaments ... I very much like how it is done in BW. If there could be the equivalent of content for europe/NA in SC2 as the Korea BW I think that would be awesome and then, all this multiculturalism and stuff is just not possible as long as latencies are as high as they are. Gonna have to talk to Bob Kotick about that.
I dont know if its going to be all the time but another tournament just popped up an LG cinema tournament unrelated to the GSL with a 34,000 dollars prize for the winner there isnt any information translated on it except for in the interview with IMYONGHWA but who knows maybe its a quarterly tournament or something. So new tournaments are in fact popping up i hope more start coming faster though took a while for another decent prize pool tournament to pop up in korea.
Im sure if it does well there is no reason why there wouldnt be another one
Making Code A an online tournament? I really hope that's a tongue-in-cheek suggestion, and you should know why. As for implying that Haypro can win even small events... well, you're either ignorant or willfully blind.
i can't find any reason to INVITE foreigners for this tournament.
actually is there A person who is arguably better than top tier Koreans such as mvp, bomber, Nestea?
No-_-. Why GOM should pay flights for foreigners(underdogs)? this is most competitive league on earth and if foreigners think they are able to beat top koreans, they should prove that without any support from GOM.
I think this is a bit dishonest. The title of this topic should be "The Problem with Foreign Progamers" and not "The Problem with Korea." As others pointed out, the bottom line is money and the effort required to get it.
If foreigners could win or do well in Korea, nobody would be having this discussion. If foreigners had a realistic shot at winning it all, the majority of foreign pro gamers would have no problems at all with spending a month there.
The issue is foreigners can't and we're having this conversation about how better to accommodate them so that they can.
I'm sorry, but that just seems ridiculous. If they don't want to put the work in to be competitive, then too bad. If they aren't good enough to compete, then get good enough to compete. If you don't want to invest yourself in something, you do not deserve the rewards. The work ethic of the majority of foreign SC2 progamers is just pathetic when compared to the Koreans.
I'm glad that MLG is setting up this partnership with GOM. I'm happy that the Koreans will have a good chance at dominating MLG and taking up a lot of top spots while foreigners will get only 1 code S / 4 code A spots at best. If they were as good as someone like Bomber, who, once in code A, took all of a few weeks to dominate his way into code S, they would have no problems with being given that spot because code S would only be a few weeks away. The true issue is that for them, it is indeed worthless because they won't be able to do much with it.
I'll be happy when foreigners are left with no choice but to step up their work ethic / organization if they want to compete. As it is, it's just a matter of time before it reaches that point. Korean pro-gamers are pressuring GOM to allow them to branch out and sooner than later, the only tournaments left without Koreans will be region restricted ones that will slowly fade out.
On May 18 2011 11:21 Duravi wrote: Why not make Code A a 2-3 day tournament so combined with up/down it only lasts a week?
Length of time is the biggest problem for Code A, nobody wants to spend a month in it unable to play outside tournaments and looking at a very hard road to Code S. Making Code A 2-3 days makes it more equivalent to MLG in accessibility and generate very high viewer numbers for those three days. It may even cost Gom less money since they would only need to house the foreign players for a week max which would help balance out potential ad revenue lost.
This kills the point of gsl. A 2-3 day tournament every month is going to get way less viewers total than a month long tournament with a few weeks break in between.
I hate with a passion the idea of making anything GSL related online. I would stop paying to watch them if this were the case, my care would just plummet. If you lower the standard of the competitions by doing this then we might as well all just run NASLs and TSLs all the time. Worthless.
I want to hear from more pros - particularly the ones who declined, on why they declined. Not Idra, we know his feelings. But Dimaga Whitera Morrow all those champions. I'd like an in depth discussion from them on their feeling on this issue.
I don't think you'll ever solve the flight cost issue unless you get an airline to sponsor GSL or MLG or both in partnership. That would be ideal if they could provide a dozen free flights every month or two.
To me the biggest issue is lack of opportunity in Korea. There just needs to be more tournaments. There needs to be a team league thing which runs the entire year, not just this awesome little 4 day extravaganza we're enjoying atm.
The key has to be creating incentive to stay in Korea for more than a month. I do see huge incentive for someone to just go for a few months for the experience. But without GSL success that is short lived. And training on the Korean ladder and with Koreans is clearly not a big enough incentive. Much of these players i assume are in this for the money, which is found in America/Europe, as opposed to actually getting better at the game, which is something they would do in Korea. Easier Money > Challenge and Experience.
Not sure what i think about the exchange. I don't feel it solves the Korean issue. It certainly is awesome for me in that i get to see Koreans in MLG. But i really want foreigners in GSL. I know they can compete, but the incentive is too weak and the barriers too big.
I also dislike free Code S tickets. One here and there is ok. That's not going to break the system. But too many and it's letting players win a lesser American tournament to gain access into the biggest bestest tournament of them all. I don't feel that foreigners deserve that foot in the door. Jinro and Idra have earned it. No one else has. For me this is a respect issue. I will forever respect Idra and the Liquid players for what they've achieved in GSL, all of them. But some guy winning an MLG and getting a free pass into GSL does not command the same respect to me. It's cheap.
I'd like for players to make the choice to go to Korea because Korea itself is a place they want to be. Not because they get a free ticket to free Code S cash and only then do they consider it worth their time.
I'd rather have no foreigners in Korea (other than the ones based there legit like Liquid) than have them only go because its made easier to be in GSL than it is for the Koreans themselves.
what if they drasticaly increase the Code A prize pool? would it motivate foreigners to move there?
IMO, a prize pool increase would be good, but they couldn't make it drastic. If they gave even the winner of Code A more than a Code S RO32 player, it just wouldn't make sense.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote: I'll shed some light on the situation, from the perspective of a team leader for a major team, and I'm sure many other teams/organizations/players outside of Korea share the same thought. This article is in response to the GSL Super Tournament Thread, and the PlayXP article about Needing More Foreigners in Korea:
The "Korean" Problem
I'll start off by saying that the title may not be appropriate, but I couldn't think of a better name for it.
The GSL Super Tournament was recently announced, and it was to the community's dismay that only two non Korean players will be participating. This is by choice, there were many foreign players who were invited -- but they all chose not to go. There are several reasons for this, which I will explain. Next, I will go into a bit of detail as to what I believe is the problem, and potentially, how it can be fixed.
GSL Super Tournament
The Super Tournament is a one month long affair. It begins the week of MLG Columbus. This in itself presents a problem, and GOM tried to fix it by saying "we'll let you play your first round match, then play in MLG, then continue the tournament." The caveat is, GOM does not pay for any of the flights. So think about it: any non Korean's flight cost to Korea is $1,200 - $1,800 most likely. You need a ticket to Korea, then to MLG, and then back to Korea. That's almost $3,000 in flight cost, not to count the massive amount of jet lag that will result and more than likely lead to poor enough play to have anyone who would dare to go through that journey be eliminated early from both tournaments.
The second problem is that foreign players were notified of the tournament just about a week and a half ago. Moving to Korea is no small task, there are a LOT of things a team needs to do in order to make a trip to Korea. Funding this trip isn't a simple task, letters and proposals need to be written to sponsors in order to secure extra funding, flights and possibly VISAS need to be arranged, and a plan needs to be planned and executed. The fact that GOM notified foreign players basically three weeks before they would need to actually go to Korea leaves teams and organizations a VERY limited time to make accommodations. Personally, this is why Fnatic decided not to send its players -- we didn't receive enough advance notice to get everything ready.
The same thing happened for the GSL World Championships. Everything was so rushed and felt "last minute," and we didn't get enough out of the trip.
Sure it's amazing to see foreigners in Korea, and everyone loved all the footage of the pros at the GOM house practicing and having fun, but spectators don't get to see or know about the behind the scenes organizational stuff that makes working with GOM and getting people to Korea really difficult.
What can GOM do to help?
Notify teams/players far in advance, for starters. If today I got an email from GOM saying that they wanted to include some non Korean teams in the July/August version of the GSTL, it would be really easy for Fnatic to send a team of 4-5 people. Since going to Korea is such a huge move, teams really need more than a few weeks of notice. If we are given 1, 2, or even 3 months of advance notice, I can almost guarantee you'd be seeing more foreign players in the GSL Super Tournament and other future events.
Why are the foreigners leaving Korea
It's way too difficult to live the Korean life unless you are in Code S. The journey to qualify for Code S is not worth the time and energy it would take to have players live there. Yes, GOM has a "foreign" house, so players wouldn't have to worry about housing, but there are so many other factors to consider: acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. A player who doesn't have good practice partners or schedules will not be successful in Korea. The GOM house doesn't provide this. The house is made available, and then players are left to their own devices to practice.
Most of the Korean pro houses are full -- I know because when discussing sending Fnatic players to Korea, the major problem was where/how would the players get good training. We looked into moving into pro houses, but most are full. Spending a lot of money to send people to live in Korea just to practice on the Korean ladder is not productive.
The next big problem is that you have to make a lot of sacrifices by living in Korea. In order to play in any foreign events, you have to wake up at 3-4am to participate, unless you play in the few that make crazy schedule allowances for players in Korea. When you factor in: the amount of time it takes getting used to being in Korea and the lack of good practice, prospects look grim. Why sacrifice playing in almost every European/NA event for working through several months to have a shot at getting to Code S? Think of Haypro for example (this is purely speculative about his actual mindset/decisionmaking): he could probably win a majority of the weekly cups on EU/NA -- which could net him probably $500 per week if he was really proactive (or more, just look at the Tournament Wrap Up Threads). That looks pretty appealing to me rather than continuously trying to go through Code A, which is insanely difficult to win.
Why don't foreign players come to Korea?
The reasons are very similar to what I listed above. Even the GSL/MLG "exchange" program is not going to work. Assuming that non Korean players actually win MLG now, very few of them would actually volunteer to go to Korea as evidenced by the most recent State of the Game episode. Again: giving up playing in European and American events, living in a house of people you don't know and a brand new culture, and needing at least 2-3 GSL events to even be in good enough shape to have a shot at Code S (you're looking at a 6 month commitment to have a realistic shot at doing well in any Korean event)... why would anyone but the most die-hard, such as Jinro and HuK, make that decision. They wouldn't.
What can GOM do to help?
In my opinion there are two potential solutions here.
1) Make Code A an online tournament. If it was online, foreign participation would increase dramatically. It doesn't even need to be an open system, it could be done entirely on application and GOM could accept only the best/most qualified foreigners who apply. It could also be done during Korean hours and on the Korean server; this could be somewhat of a bittersweet revenge for Koreans, let the foreigners play at 3-4am for a change! This would work because foreigners would only have to worry about going to Korea if they qualified for Code S.
2) Invite foreigners directly into Code S. A good exchange program would be to invite a first placed foreign player at MLG to Code S. This way there is a huge incentive now for a foreigner to actually go to Korea. In fact, as mentioned on State of the Game, a direct Code S invite does appeal a lot more to foreign pros than a Code A invite. This way, you actually get foreigners to Korea -- if they lose in Code S, they might be more tempted to stick around to play through Code A to qualify again for Code S. Getting them directly into Code S is sort of like a "foot in the door" method and might increase the chances of foreigner retention in Korea.
What else?
Korea is amazing. I've watched all the GSL final events, and love them. The foreign fans love the Korean tournaments. If the GSL wants to become truly global however, more concessions need to be made to make the highest echelons more accessible to foreign players. It can't be a one way street. So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
If Koreans are continuously invited to foreign events and don't have to qualify, there will be no real incentive for Koreans to give any concessions to foreign players. I'm in no position to gauge the attitude or mindset of the people being GOM/GSL's decisionmaking, but I truly believe that by opening up their tournament format and making it more friendly to foreign players, the GSL will truly achieve its mission statement and be THE global Starcraft 2 tournament.
They have made strides by opening up a foreign house, helping to cover costs for the GOM World Championships, and with the idea of the exchange program, but more needs to be done. I think with enough feedback, commentary, and communication with GOM, we can help bridge the gap between Korea and the World, not just in terms of skill, but also in terms of events.
MLG is a 3 day tournament. (housing for 3 days) (food for 3 days) GSL is month long. (food+hosing for a month)
While MLG is doing more as far as getting the players there, you're asking too much of GOM.
If Fnatic was offered a spot in the GSTL even for exposure for it's sponsors I would like a tournament that only lasts what? 2 weeks a sponsor could not only flip the bill, but a dedicated team could get housing and VISAS arranged.
As far as making some sort of benefit for those foreigners attempting the reach code S Online Code A is not in the fashion of tournaments for Korea. Giving someone a Code S slot (perhaps, but it would have to be limited to one a season) but then you run into who deserves it? Winner of DreamHack,ESL,IEM,MLG,NASL?
Also as far as those who are "behind" as far as acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. I thought having a career made of gaming meant that you don't have time to acclimate to the culture except in off periods, time zone should be fixed relatively shortly if not get sleeping pills, and I don't know where you find better practice than the Korean ladder. I understand it is nice to play against teammates, so why not them have them give you a game on the korean ladder?
IMO though it really isn't a good idea to even try for a GOM event anyway unless you are actually the top 2 foreigners. Chances of winning a Code S are very slim. Chances of playing most foreign events are very slim. Foreign sponsors are not necessarily represented as well as they should be. But does this mean that GOM should make it easier for a foreigner to play than a Korean? Said player would be better off joining Liquid or a Korean Team IMO.
Frankly I care less about watching international players than I do about it being live. I know technically there should be no difference but something about live really makes it more exiting for me. Even watching the vods I really just like it better when it's live. there is a reason mlg is my favorite foreign tournament despite it's shortcomings.
On May 18 2011 12:35 Slusher wrote: Frankly I care less about watching international players than I do about it being live. I know technically there should be no difference but something about live really makes it more exiting for me. Even watching the vods I really just like it better when it's live. there is a reason mlg is my favorite foreign tournament despite it's shortcomings.
This kills the point of gsl. A 2-3 day tournament every month is going to get way less viewers total than a month long tournament with a few weeks break in between.
I'm just saying for Code A. Code S would run as normal, the 2-3 day Code A tournament happens a few days before up/down matches would be scheduled.
On May 18 2011 12:35 Slusher wrote: Frankly I care less about watching international players than I do about it being live. I know technically there should be no difference but something about live really makes it more exiting for me. Even watching the vods I really just like it better when it's live. there is a reason mlg is my favorite foreign tournament despite it's shortcomings.
The idea of making Code A an online tournament is very interesting but I doubt the Koreans would be willing to sacrifice the LAN aspect of the tournament. It might be seen as jeopardizing the results and player performances.
On May 18 2011 11:21 Duravi wrote: Why not make Code A a 2-3 day tournament so combined with up/down it only lasts a week?
Length of time is the biggest problem for Code A, nobody wants to spend a month in it unable to play outside tournaments and looking at a very hard road to Code S. Making Code A 2-3 days makes it more equivalent to MLG in accessibility and generate very high viewer numbers for those three days. It may even cost Gom less money since they would only need to house the foreign players for a week max which would help balance out potential ad revenue lost.
The quality of games and competition when players have time to prepare is always better. Look at the TSL with it's amazing games through the last few rounds. Absolutely some of the best SC2 I've watched up until this point.
Meanwhile, lets be honest, most of the games in the MLG were bad. Apart from games from some of the best players running into each other, there was a lot of games where one player lost the game rather than the other player winning, or a lot of cheesey all in games. That doesn't make for the most entertaining thing to watch.
Code A this season was excellent. I know people bash on Code A because when it first came out it was very deserving of criticism. There were a lot of horrible players and horrible games. That's not the case anymore. Most of the games and players in Code A this month have been surprisingly amazing. We're beginning to see just how high the level of competition in the GSL is and why this is the pinnacle of SC2 right now.
Players have time to prepare, they don't lose to silly shit because they've been staring at a computer screen for 12 hours of the day. That's not taking anything away from any of those short tournaments, they do what they have to. But what makes the GSL the best is that they have those luxuries of being live, being spaced out, and having the production and support to create the show that they put on.
Making something a condensed tournament, or sticking it online is really robbing those players of having the best shot they can get at qualifying. And with a tournament with SO MUCH on the line, that would really be cruel.
I agree that the problems stated in the OP are very valid and need addressing. However, the solutions are ones that I STRONGLY, STRONGLY disagree with.
1. Code A being online would severely hamper its legitimacy. Just as we've seen Korean players often underperform in online tournaments with the issue of lag constantly hanging over any online tournament (and the ensuing controversy is always a pain), Code A being online would be a similar issue, but instead with the foreign players being affected by lag (assuming it's played on KR which makes sense, since it's a Korean tournament). Online tournaments simply do not match up to LANs.
2. Putting a foreigner into Code S seems like a nice way to help the foreign scene get its foot in the door, but I feel that that's simply massively unfair to Korean players. We've seen how ridiculously difficult it is to even get through Code A qualifiers. To forgo that, and also, getting to the Ro8 in Code A, along with dealing with the Up/Downs, just feels like far too large of a sacrifice in terms of fairness. I have no doubt that many progamers have a huge stake in the GSL. It's not fair to just give a free ticket into Code S, even if it is to an MLG winner or something.
I feel that as things are now, finding a solution to the problem lies in Blizzard bettering Battle.net so that lag becomes a non-issue. I never followed BW, but in the midst of the lag discussions following the TSL and NASL games, I've heard many people say that BW didn't have this sort of problem with lag in online games.
On May 18 2011 12:35 Slusher wrote: Frankly I care less about watching international players than I do about it being live. I know technically there should be no difference but something about live really makes it more exiting for me. Even watching the vods I really just like it better when it's live. there is a reason mlg is my favorite foreign tournament despite it's shortcomings.
??????????????????
??????
???
Every event is live except NASL.
This is COMPLETELY backwards...
NASL = Live matches, recorded + broadcasted @ a later time TSL = Casted from replays IPL = Casted from replays GSL = Live matches, on-site, broadcasted live MLG = Live matches, on-site, broadcasted live
On May 18 2011 12:09 Goibon wrote: The key has to be creating incentive to stay in Korea for more than a month. I do see huge incentive for someone to just go for a few months for the experience. But without GSL success that is short lived. And training on the Korean ladder and with Koreans is clearly not a big enough incentive. Much of these players i assume are in this for the money, which is found in America/Europe, as opposed to actually getting better at the game, which is something they would do in Korea. Easier Money > Challenge and Experience.
Not sure what i think about the exchange. I don't feel it solves the Korean issue. It certainly is awesome for me in that i get to see Koreans in MLG. But i really want foreigners in GSL. I know they can compete, but the incentive is too weak and the barriers too big.
In my opinion, that is a systematic problem. If there is easier and more money in not going to Korea than there is in going there, while the competition and challenge in Korea are harder, that is a problem. I think most people would agree that the money should go towards the better players generally. Lets just ignore the whole heroic stance of "players should focus on getting better instead of getting money" for a moment, since in an ideal system, there should be no need to make that decision.
An important thing here is that the actual cost of attending a tournament vastly differs depending on the location of the player, unless the tournament is completely online. However, completely online tournaments are usually not as exciting as an offline event.
A tournament has an expected return depending on pricepool and probable result of a specific player. There is a flat cost in attending a tournament in flight costs + housing. Sometimes some of those are covered by the tournament organizers for players, sometimes not. Also, the better a player is, the higher his probable result, and directly following the expected return. For a tournament to be attractive for a player, the expected return needs to be a substantial amount higher than the cost of attending. How much higher, exactly, depends on the person.
The cost of attending the GSL is higher for a foreign player than for a Korean, since a flight needs to be paid for. However, in the same way the cost of attending a european tournament is higher for americans, american tournaments are more costly for europeans, and obviously both are more costly for koreans. So the further away a tournament is, the higher the expected return needs to be to make it worth it. To complicate things further, the cost assoziated with a tournament can be reduced by attending multiple tournaments that are less costly to reach in succession than individually if they are geographically near each other.
It seems to be common knowledge that the expected return of going to Korea is usually not worth the effort for foreign gamers at the moment. I do not know if this is really the case, but a lot of people seem to be concerned about this. Now, there are effectively only two ways to combat this. Either decreasing the cost, or increasing the expected return. If one takes a look at this thread, all sensible ideas follow these lines.
Giving out slots higher in the GSL increases the expected return for the foreigners going there. Increasing the earnings at Code A and lower placements also increases the expected return for foreigners, since realistically in most cases they will not win in code S for a long time. Having more different tournaments in Korea decreases the costs for attending the GSL. Reducing the time Code A takes also reduces the costs indirectly, since it gives more time to attend different tournaments. However, if those tournaments are on an other continent, it actually does not help a lot since the cost of the flights, which to my knowledge is the bulk of it, still remains the same. So this solution would be far less effective than people expect it too.
Interestingly, all this works the other way around, too. It is expensive for Koreans to get to europe or america, so for them to be worth it, there needs to be substantial return expected. So they either need to attend multiple tournaments, or they need to position high enough in the ones with higher pricepools. Which is also why we do not see mid-level Korean Progamers flooding events throughout the world.
Obviously, the easiest way to get a true global Esports community would be expected returns to always dwarf flight costs. However, money does not grow on trees, so this is completely unrealistic too.
Now, one needs to examine which goals one has. If Gomtv wants to create a true global league, it is necessary that the expected returns for foreigners attending the GSL is substantially higher (About the cost of a flight to Korea and back) than that of Koreans. Now, this certainly is not fair for the Koreans. But this is not the point. Fairness actually does not have anything to do with this. It is a simple necessity if they want to be attractive to international players. Now, this need would decrease if there were more tournaments in Korea, because again, this lowers the cost of attending the GSL for those players. If GSL instead chooses that they want to make it exactly equivalently hard to achieve something for each player, no matter where he is from, they need to realize that they will get less competitors from further away. All of this is a matter of logic. It has nothing to do with a culture of "everyone being a winner" versus actual hard work, or anything like that.
Of course, the experience in itself is worth it for some players, but since one really can not logically investigate this, the best way to go at it is from a monetary standpoint.
Also, all of what i just stated works the exact same way in the opposite direction, too. If a european contest wants more korean players in it, the expected results for those needs to be higher that the expected result of a european. This is why only very few very top level koreans actually attend outside tournaments, because for them, that calculation works because they can expect to achieve a high position in every tournament they enter.
It is pretty easy to say that progamers should disregard the monetary aspects and try to compete at the toughest competition they can find if one is not the person giving up the money, so i don't really think this is a valid argument.
On May 18 2011 12:35 Slusher wrote: Frankly I care less about watching international players than I do about it being live. I know technically there should be no difference but something about live really makes it more exiting for me. Even watching the vods I really just like it better when it's live. there is a reason mlg is my favorite foreign tournament despite it's shortcomings.
??????????????????
??????
???
Every event is live except NASL.
This is COMPLETELY backwards...
NASL = Live matches, recorded + broadcasted @ a later time TSL = Casted from replays IPL = Casted from replays GSL = Live matches, on-site, broadcasted live MLG = Live matches, on-site, broadcasted live
You named one even that was doing a test run. I do believe their thread says live casts when the real IPL starts. TSL is casted from replays except for the final. You are right. But the major events. DreamHack IEM ESL MLG GSL those are all live.
On May 18 2011 09:27 simme123 wrote: To be honest I don't really care that much about korean sc2. It's just not interesting to me as I think the foreigners can play at a level that at least comes very close to the top of the korean community. And since I know the back story to most foreigners and it's a lot easier to figure out stuff / go through interviews with them I find it a lot more interesting to follow. So I don't really mind if a BW scenario were to pop up where the Koreans do their thing and the foreigners to their thing.
However I do get that the players especially get pissed over the MLG partnership because it's just plain unfair but to be honest it's not the biggest deal to me as a spectator.
700th post btw .. yey! haha .p
Yea...and BW has long been dead on the foreign scene while its still thriving in korea. For esports to get to the level people here want it at there needs to be cooperation between the two scenes because Koreans actually know how to run this shit. A company like MLG will have no problem dropping sc2 and moving on to the next big fps if the viewers start leaving. A company like gom is actually in it for the long run not just trying to cash in on the next big thing. The current format of everyone in for themselves is not sustainable for the long run. More stuff like MLG/GSL needs to be done for the scene to prosper.
On May 18 2011 07:05 Xeris wrote: Hey -- you guys are right! I totally forgot that 4 foreign players were invited to Code A. However, I think my point generally still stands.
"There isn't a lot of propose solutions to your criticisms. Code A online would be horrible, I just don't see that working at all. And the your proposed solution to direct invite to code S is already a reality with the first place in MLG getting a spot."
How would Code A online be horrible? If you want to make an outlandish claim like that you should at least explain it...
Like greg said, it just results in games where people second guess the results. Especially games with noticeable lag, it'll deter the game quality. It's the same reason Liquid isn't in that EG team tournament.
MLG will get higher audience numbers by inviting koreans (as more korean ppl will watch). GOM won't get that much of an increse. Korean ppl already watching the GSL and the rest of the world too. I don't think there are many folks out there who just watch NA/EU tournaments and avoid watching GSL
On May 18 2011 12:09 Goibon wrote: The key has to be creating incentive to stay in Korea for more than a month. I do see huge incentive for someone to just go for a few months for the experience. But without GSL success that is short lived. And training on the Korean ladder and with Koreans is clearly not a big enough incentive. Much of these players i assume are in this for the money, which is found in America/Europe, as opposed to actually getting better at the game, which is something they would do in Korea. Easier Money > Challenge and Experience.
Not sure what i think about the exchange. I don't feel it solves the Korean issue. It certainly is awesome for me in that i get to see Koreans in MLG. But i really want foreigners in GSL. I know they can compete, but the incentive is too weak and the barriers too big.
In my opinion, that is a systematic problem. If there is easier and more money in not going to Korea than there is in going there, while the competition and challenge in Korea are harder, that is a problem. I think most people would agree that the money should go towards the better players generally. Lets just ignore the whole heroic stance of "players should focus on getting better instead of getting money" for a moment, since in an ideal system, there should be no need to make that decision.
An important thing here is that the actual cost of attending a tournament vastly differs depending on the location of the player, unless the tournament is completely online. However, completely online tournaments are usually not as exciting as an offline event.
A tournament has an expected return depending on pricepool and probable result of a specific player. There is a flat cost in attending a tournament in flight costs + housing. Sometimes some of those are covered by the tournament organizers for players, sometimes not. Also, the better a player is, the higher his probable result, and directly following the expected return. For a tournament to be attractive for a player, the expected return needs to be a substantial amount higher than the cost of attending. How much higher, exactly, depends on the person.
The cost of attending the GSL is higher for a foreign player than for a Korean, since a flight needs to be paid for. However, in the same way the cost of attending a european tournament is higher for americans, american tournaments are more costly for europeans, and obviously both are more costly for koreans. So the further away a tournament is, the higher the expected return needs to be to make it worth it. To complicate things further, the cost assoziated with a tournament can be reduced by attending multiple tournaments that are less costly to reach in succession than individually if they are geographically near each other.
It seems to be common knowledge that the expected return of going to Korea is usually not worth the effort for foreign gamers at the moment. I do not know if this is really the case, but a lot of people seem to be concerned about this. Now, there are effectively only two ways to combat this. Either decreasing the cost, or increasing the expected return. If one takes a look at this thread, all sensible ideas follow these lines.
Giving out slots higher in the GSL increases the expected return for the foreigners going there. Increasing the earnings at Code A and lower placements also increases the expected return for foreigners, since realistically in most cases they will not win in code S for a long time. Having more different tournaments in Korea decreases the costs for attending the GSL. Reducing the time Code A takes also reduces the costs indirectly, since it gives more time to attend different tournaments. However, if those tournaments are on an other continent, it actually does not help a lot since the cost of the flights, which to my knowledge is the bulk of it, still remains the same. So this solution would be far less effective than people expect it too.
Interestingly, all this works the other way around, too. It is expensive for Koreans to get to europe or america, so for them to be worth it, there needs to be substantial return expected. So they either need to attend multiple tournaments, or they need to position high enough in the ones with higher pricepools. Which is also why we do not see mid-level Korean Progamers flooding events throughout the world.
Obviously, the easiest way to get a true global Esports community would be expected returns to always dwarf flight costs. However, money does not grow on trees, so this is completely unrealistic too.
Now, one needs to examine which goals one has. If Gomtv wants to create a true global league, it is necessary that the expected returns for foreigners attending the GSL is substantially higher (About the cost of a flight to Korea and back) than that of Koreans. Now, this certainly is not fair for the Koreans. But this is not the point. Fairness actually does not have anything to do with this. It is a simple necessity if they want to be attractive to international players. Now, this need would decrease if there were more tournaments in Korea, because again, this lowers the cost of attending the GSL for those players. If GSL instead chooses that they want to make it exactly equivalently hard to achieve something for each player, no matter where he is from, they need to realize that they will get less competitors from further away. All of this is a matter of logic. It has nothing to do with a culture of "everyone being a winner" versus actual hard work, or anything like that.
Of course, the experience in itself is worth it for some players, but since one really can not logically investigate this, the best way to go at it is from a monetary standpoint.
Also, all of what i just stated works the exact same way in the opposite direction, too. If a european contest wants more korean players in it, the expected results for those needs to be higher that the expected result of a european. This is why only very few very top level koreans actually attend outside tournaments, because for them, that calculation works because they can expect to achieve a high position in every tournament they enter.
It is pretty easy to say that progamers should disregard the monetary aspects and try to compete at the toughest competition they can find if one is not the person giving up the money, so i don't really think this is a valid argument.
Good try? The cost of living in korea is the same no matter where you're from. The argument you're making is that by global gsl doesnt mean "the best players in the world" they mean "players from all over the world" which is a stupid argument. The point of a league is to have the best players, and if foreigners dont think they can do well in code s then they shouldnt cone.
Article should be retitled "problem with foreigners"
Meh, I don't blame them for giving foreigners less of a deal when all the foreigners that come can't compete or choke, then they decide they shouldn't waste slots on them anymore...
On May 18 2011 12:35 Slusher wrote: Frankly I care less about watching international players than I do about it being live. I know technically there should be no difference but something about live really makes it more exiting for me. Even watching the vods I really just like it better when it's live. there is a reason mlg is my favorite foreign tournament despite it's shortcomings.
??????????????????
??????
???
Every event is live except NASL.
This is COMPLETELY backwards...
NASL = Live matches, recorded + broadcasted @ a later time TSL = Casted from replays IPL = Casted from replays GSL = Live matches, on-site, broadcasted live MLG = Live matches, on-site, broadcasted live
You named one even that was doing a test run. I do believe their thread says live casts when the real IPL starts. TSL is casted from replays except for the final. You are right. But the major events. DreamHack IEM ESL MLG GSL those are all live.
you just listed a big list of events that are run as a LAN, so of course they are going to be live.
NASL has players from all types of different time zones (east/west coast, europe, korea) so having 10 people all be on at the same time to play one after the other is a lot harder than having every at a LAN.
Tbh I don't like direct seeding into code S. GSL is the most prestigous sc2 tournament in the world right now, and it should remain that way. If you don't want to commit to playing through code A to get into code S and prove yourself then fine. From a spectator point of view I don't mind this at all. We get more koreans to MLG = better players, and noone gets a free pass to code S keeping the glory of GSL. I guess it sucks for foreigner players who aren't willing to take a risk and go to korea, but frankly I couldn't care less.
hmmmmmm dont know what to think about the ideas to make korea more attractive
but i personally think that the thing is that the gsl is the only tournament in korea that is worthy competing right? so if more other tournaments in korea would pop up it should be much more attractive for foreign players to go there (and also it would be a chance to make more lesser known koreans more popular)
I think the GSL is great, but why is it necessary to have it include a bunch of foreigners? I would much prefer a model where players compete in offline leagues in their own country, then occasionally fly out to big tournaments and face each other. I don't really like all these online events (NASL, IPL, TSL) nearly as much as good LANs like MLG and GSL.
As an American I would love to see an LASL (based in LA of course) and an NYSL (based in NY), where players from that part of the country play in an offline league format, instead of the NASL where a bunch of players from all over the place play in a flavorless divisional round, then fly out for a short LAN at the end. WCG could serve as the international proving grounds, or some other international tournaments could arise. The basic point is: Prolonged offline league play at a regional level, then short super tournaments at the international level.
See I don't understand this. Shouldn't it be every pro's dream to become the best player in the world? You become the best by playing in Korea. There is no other option here. Even if you win every MLG, TSL, DH, IEM whatnot you haven't proved anything unless you can compete at the GSL.
Also, the amount of exposure foreigners who competes at the GSL gets is huge! Every foreigner who has competed at the GSL is super well-known by now. Shouldn't that mean something to the team sponsors? I barely know what sponsors the Pro-teams have. But I damn sure know that Team Liquid is sponsored by The little app factory.
On May 18 2011 13:27 HolyArrow wrote: I agree that the problems stated in the OP are very valid and need addressing. However, the solutions are ones that I STRONGLY, STRONGLY disagree with.
1. Code A being online would severely hamper its legitimacy. Just as we've seen Korean players often underperform in online tournaments with the issue of lag constantly hanging over any online tournament (and the ensuing controversy is always a pain), Code A being online would be a similar issue, but instead with the foreign players being affected by lag (assuming it's played on KR which makes sense, since it's a Korean tournament). Online tournaments simply do not match up to LANs.
2. Putting a foreigner into Code S seems like a nice way to help the foreign scene get its foot in the door, but I feel that that's simply massively unfair to Korean players. We've seen how ridiculously difficult it is to even get through Code A qualifiers. To forgo that, and also, getting to the Ro8 in Code A, along with dealing with the Up/Downs, just feels like far too large of a sacrifice in terms of fairness. I have no doubt that many progamers have a huge stake in the GSL. It's not fair to just give a free ticket into Code S, even if it is to an MLG winner or something.
I feel that as things are now, finding a solution to the problem lies in Blizzard bettering Battle.net so that lag becomes a non-issue. I never followed BW, but in the midst of the lag discussions following the TSL and NASL games, I've heard many people say that BW didn't have this sort of problem with lag in online games.
Putting a foreigner in code s isnt a possible solution, IT IS ALREADY HAPPENING. Starting AFTER columbus the player who gets first in the tournament will be seeded directly into code S as long as its not a korean who is already in code s (then it will go to second place)
Its amazing the amount of people that dont know this even though it is stated in the press release and it has been mentioned many times by me and others. Its suprising how little people listen. I really wish the OP would change his post to reflect this as its creating absolutely unecessary posts and arguments it has been stated that a seed into code s for first place in MLG multiple times to him. Please change your OP to reflect this xeris its creating unecessary arguments and posts. You should have known this already anyways, its right there in the press release....
On May 18 2011 15:17 -miDnight- wrote: I can felt by the operation of Gom, they don't care about foreigner player in GSL or not.
lol are you serious? thats why they created a foreigner house have seeded foreigners into code a numerous times and had a world championship. I dont see what people want, of the foreigners that have been seeded into code a, almost all of them have been eliminated immediately aside from Huk. Why do you think they should get seeded into code S they would have an even worse chance of succeeding ,they have received alot of critisicm for doing direct seeds for foreigners as they all get knocked out by foreigners. This statement is made out of ignorance. I dont really understand how you could come to this conclusion especially after this new MLG GSL exchange program it shows exactly the opposite of what you are saying ,they do care about foreigners they are even giving the winner a direct seed into code s and giving 4 players an all expenses paid trip to korea to live and train in the gom house. How could yoou say this means they dont care about foreigners =/
So how does that Code-S seeding actually work? Isn't Code-S already full as it is? You cannot make a bracket with 33 players, so they would have to kick someone out right?
One big problem with Korea is that it's Korea. It's a small sliver of land on the other side of the Pacific where everyone speaks a different language that doesn't even use the same character set as what English speaking people are for the most part used to. Perhaps if the Global Star League hosted events in other countries it'd seem more accessible to foreign players.
On May 18 2011 18:47 Lann555 wrote: So how does that Code-S seeding actually work? Isn't Code-S already full as it is? You cannot make a bracket with 33 players, so they would have to kick someone out right?
The 16 losers in the Ro32 of code S have to play against the top 8 in code A. 2 people go into code S, 1 goes back into code A.
GSL could offer a Code S spot to TSL3 winner as well. He did have to defeat Code S players to win so I would say that more then qualifies him to be in Code S.
I agree a lot with you. I was actually under impression GSL would pay for players coming to the super tourney but now that you mention got pay for your own flight that is a bit too much. But would really like to see more foreigners there and if they would get nice seeds how we give the Koreans in other tourneys.
I'm guessing that this problem will start to be alleviated when foreigners start regularly beating Koreans. I have high hopes for Thorzain, for example. Once the Koreans realize they aren't that special, they'll make things easier for foreigners to enter. Or perhaps not.
Felt this was kind of relevant: My thoughts on the Haypro moves to Stockholm news
Although we have had TLO and Ret leave Korea before, those decisions were taken from a more personal point of view than Hayder's decision to move back to Europe. Hayder likes it in Korea with Chris, Jonathan and the oGs team. However we must also continue to keep making the right choices together. When we originally came to Korea with Dario and Jonathan we did not expect the scene to remain as one sided as it is today.
GSL is an amazing tournament, but there is too little going on in Korea to justify a stay there when one is outside of Code A. With one shot every two months to make it into the tournament, and this shot being against 200 of the best Koreans who are all fighting for just sixteen spots, you know the odds are against you no matter how good you are. Further, even after getting through these qualifiers you could argue that Code A does not justify being in Korea. After all, Code A is mostly a gateway to Code S.
Taking the GSL out of the equation, the other key factor to stay in Korea for is for the great practice conditions. To come to the right decision these practice conditions have to be weighed against all the opportunities the western scene has to offer. The European tournament scene is much broader in terms of opportunities for a player. Even if you would weigh quality practice as high as we do, there comes a time where you have to make the move to turn this practice into results by participating in as many tournaments as possible.
Playing from Korea means that you play cross-server games with a delay that puts you at a disadvantage against your opponents. A lot has been said about this topic already. Though the delay's effect can be minimized with proper preparation it is always a bothersome thing for a player to deal with.
A player playing from Korea always deals with the longest flights and the worst jet lag when participating overseas. These are all factors that are a result of our own choices and thus we take full responsibility for them. However that also means that one would have to be in the GSL to offset them and make a stay in Korea worthwhile.
Given all of this we recently sat down more than once with Hayder to discuss these things. Together we came to the conclusion that, sad as it may be to leave his friends behind, it is the right move for his career to go back to Sweden and join Dario in Stockholm.
It has always been a goal of ours to be a bridge between Korea and the foreign scene. Slowly this is becoming more and more difficult. Today's choice, however, is a choice about an individual's life and career, where the only right move is to do what is good for the player. Together with Hayder we will work at giving him the best possible future in terms of progaming and are confident that many good things will come from this move.
Maybe a possible solution is to create a big invitational Lan tournament directly in Korea (50% Koreans 50% Foreigners )... kinda like MLG or Dreamhack or Assembly.. one big event that finishes in max 3 or 4 days.. So it wouldn't be neither online tournaments lag/delay problems nor additional effort costs to remain an entire month in Korea The better players of this tournaments would be invite in GSL Code S
Great read Xeris and an insightful point of view from a person your unique position. There are most certainly problems with the development of the Korean scene; GSL is the be all and end all of any SC2 competitive scene in Korea and it provides large limitations on anyones' desires to move to Korea with very little pay off.
I think the biggest thing to remember is how many BW tournaments are there outside Korea? How many "BW exchange" programs were there during its peak? The Korean scene is taking steps in the right direction. We have had Korean participation in a lot of foreigner events (IEM and NASL) which is a somewhat unprecedented occurence. As SC2 develops and the divergence between Korea and the foreigners reduces i am sure will we see bigger efforts made to integrate the two scenes.
On May 18 2011 12:35 Slusher wrote: Frankly I care less about watching international players than I do about it being live. I know technically there should be no difference but something about live really makes it more exiting for me. Even watching the vods I really just like it better when it's live. there is a reason mlg is my favorite foreign tournament despite it's shortcomings.
I think the main thing is that lag and timezones prevents people in Korea from competing in the Sennheiser, Zotac, Gosu or other smaller recurring cups. Showmatches are more complicated due to time and obviously lag plays a major part in competing in the major online leagues (TSL, IPL and NASL).
This seems to be a far larger problem than whether or not Code A is worth it, because regardless of Code A, Korea offers a huge opportunity in terms of practice. I know the Pro house in Stockholm is intended to emulate this, but it's still very new.
Moving to Korea is a huge cultural difference, but from a professional point of view would be completely worth it, if it were possible to circumvent the lag and timezone problems in competing in the online tournaments. The true remedy would thus be to add more smaller (or even major) tournaments in Korea, so you're not stuck twiddling your thumbs for most of the month if you are knocked out of the GSL early on (or even worse, fail to qualify for Code A).
On May 18 2011 19:21 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Felt this was kind of relevant: My thoughts on the Haypro moves to Stockholm news
Shame that Blizzard and GOM are kind of shooting their own foot here... really want them to succed but this is really hampering their progress and the progress of Esports overall.
Good post. It's crazy to go to A for a month for chump change ($1200) and only if you win considering western monies available and perhaps less competition for said monies. What's funny is koreans get invited into real money in the West (dreamhack, MLG etc) while westerners don't. I'm not sure if Westerners pay for Koreans flights and room and board or not but it strikes me as hypocritical just based on potential return of winning or placing in said tournament. Guys like Haypro, huk jinro etc are not doing what's in their financial interest let alone a newcomer but whatever, their choice.
Gom is not doing themselves any favors either. As Westerners leave like IdrA and don't come like incontrol and other have said they won't for chump change, subscriptions to GSL will falter from thier paying customers in the West.
No one is mentioning China.. i believe in some months it will be worth to be in Korea trying go get code A/S and going to allot of tournament in china/malasia(FXO) and other random in Korea!
China is going to explode, they were the best in the end of WC3 and had the biggest tournaments for WC3!!
We can all see their skill increasing and the hype behind it will bring lots of tournaments and money for grabs! sase, grubby, naniwa, thorzain, tod etc.. have experience in chinese tournaments and I would like to hear from them..
On May 18 2011 16:11 0neder wrote: Meh, I don't blame them for giving foreigners less of a deal when all the foreigners that come can't compete or choke, then they decide they shouldn't waste slots on them anymore...
This, i agree. We would all love to see more foreigners in GSL, but there's no many who truly can compete with the Koreans.
On May 18 2011 07:20 legaton wrote: There is no "korean" problem, but a "foreign" one. Foreigners are growing used to play tournaments with sizable prize-pool and mediocre competition. As you say, an average player can make a living just by grinding small weekly tournaments. Good players know that with the volatility of SC2, they all have a shot at winning a huge tournament from time to time. The "foreign" problem is a mix between greediness and laziness. Of course, all pro-gamers want to win some money, but athletes should also try to become the best. GomTV is offering a huge opportunity to play against the best players in the world (without lag, koreans player dominate). But here we are, asking for even more: no risk online-only tournaments (more farming) and direct access to code S.
My thoughts exactly. Also, big teams like Fnatic and EG preexisted SC2 and knew the best way to train was teamhouses, yet even a year after the release there is only one foreign teamhouse, from a new and small team on top of that. I agree the Code A tournament sucks for foreigners, but asking for Code S slots when you didn't make the biggest effort to be the best is laughable.
On May 18 2011 12:09 Goibon wrote: The key has to be creating incentive to stay in Korea for more than a month. I do see huge incentive for someone to just go for a few months for the experience. But without GSL success that is short lived. And training on the Korean ladder and with Koreans is clearly not a big enough incentive. Much of these players i assume are in this for the money, which is found in America/Europe, as opposed to actually getting better at the game, which is something they would do in Korea. Easier Money > Challenge and Experience.
Not sure what i think about the exchange. I don't feel it solves the Korean issue. It certainly is awesome for me in that i get to see Koreans in MLG. But i really want foreigners in GSL. I know they can compete, but the incentive is too weak and the barriers too big.
In my opinion, that is a systematic problem. If there is easier and more money in not going to Korea than there is in going there, while the competition and challenge in Korea are harder, that is a problem. I think most people would agree that the money should go towards the better players generally. Lets just ignore the whole heroic stance of "players should focus on getting better instead of getting money" for a moment, since in an ideal system, there should be no need to make that decision.
An important thing here is that the actual cost of attending a tournament vastly differs depending on the location of the player, unless the tournament is completely online. However, completely online tournaments are usually not as exciting as an offline event.
A tournament has an expected return depending on pricepool and probable result of a specific player. There is a flat cost in attending a tournament in flight costs + housing. Sometimes some of those are covered by the tournament organizers for players, sometimes not. Also, the better a player is, the higher his probable result, and directly following the expected return. For a tournament to be attractive for a player, the expected return needs to be a substantial amount higher than the cost of attending. How much higher, exactly, depends on the person.
The cost of attending the GSL is higher for a foreign player than for a Korean, since a flight needs to be paid for. However, in the same way the cost of attending a european tournament is higher for americans, american tournaments are more costly for europeans, and obviously both are more costly for koreans. So the further away a tournament is, the higher the expected return needs to be to make it worth it. To complicate things further, the cost assoziated with a tournament can be reduced by attending multiple tournaments that are less costly to reach in succession than individually if they are geographically near each other.
It seems to be common knowledge that the expected return of going to Korea is usually not worth the effort for foreign gamers at the moment. I do not know if this is really the case, but a lot of people seem to be concerned about this. Now, there are effectively only two ways to combat this. Either decreasing the cost, or increasing the expected return. If one takes a look at this thread, all sensible ideas follow these lines.
Giving out slots higher in the GSL increases the expected return for the foreigners going there. Increasing the earnings at Code A and lower placements also increases the expected return for foreigners, since realistically in most cases they will not win in code S for a long time. Having more different tournaments in Korea decreases the costs for attending the GSL. Reducing the time Code A takes also reduces the costs indirectly, since it gives more time to attend different tournaments. However, if those tournaments are on an other continent, it actually does not help a lot since the cost of the flights, which to my knowledge is the bulk of it, still remains the same. So this solution would be far less effective than people expect it too.
Interestingly, all this works the other way around, too. It is expensive for Koreans to get to europe or america, so for them to be worth it, there needs to be substantial return expected. So they either need to attend multiple tournaments, or they need to position high enough in the ones with higher pricepools. Which is also why we do not see mid-level Korean Progamers flooding events throughout the world.
Obviously, the easiest way to get a true global Esports community would be expected returns to always dwarf flight costs. However, money does not grow on trees, so this is completely unrealistic too.
Now, one needs to examine which goals one has. If Gomtv wants to create a true global league, it is necessary that the expected returns for foreigners attending the GSL is substantially higher (About the cost of a flight to Korea and back) than that of Koreans. Now, this certainly is not fair for the Koreans. But this is not the point. Fairness actually does not have anything to do with this. It is a simple necessity if they want to be attractive to international players. Now, this need would decrease if there were more tournaments in Korea, because again, this lowers the cost of attending the GSL for those players. If GSL instead chooses that they want to make it exactly equivalently hard to achieve something for each player, no matter where he is from, they need to realize that they will get less competitors from further away. All of this is a matter of logic. It has nothing to do with a culture of "everyone being a winner" versus actual hard work, or anything like that.
Of course, the experience in itself is worth it for some players, but since one really can not logically investigate this, the best way to go at it is from a monetary standpoint.
Also, all of what i just stated works the exact same way in the opposite direction, too. If a european contest wants more korean players in it, the expected results for those needs to be higher that the expected result of a european. This is why only very few very top level koreans actually attend outside tournaments, because for them, that calculation works because they can expect to achieve a high position in every tournament they enter.
It is pretty easy to say that progamers should disregard the monetary aspects and try to compete at the toughest competition they can find if one is not the person giving up the money, so i don't really think this is a valid argument.
Good try? The cost of living in korea is the same no matter where you're from. The argument you're making is that by global gsl doesnt mean "the best players in the world" they mean "players from all over the world" which is a stupid argument. The point of a league is to have the best players, and if foreigners dont think they can do well in code s then they shouldnt cone.
Article should be retitled "problem with foreigners"
I am pretty sure that you either quoted what i wrote without reading it, or without understanding it, because your reply makes no sense at all. I did not even take a stance. And the costs of living in Korea are the same no matter where you are from, but the cost of GETTING TO Korea differs depending on where you start the journey. If you are in Korea, it is zero. If you are in Europe or America, flights cost money.
What i said is that to make something more global, one needs to accept more unfairness because of that. If one makes it totally fair for everyone, it is logically less attractive to people the further away they are because the costs of attending differ. Note that i did not say that one should do that, i am simply stating the framework. Which way one wants to take is the choice of the tournament operator.
I think people are putting too much emphasis on the "easier tournaments to win" argument. I dont doubt for a second that if foreigners were given a months notice instead of a week that there wouldn't be at least 4 or 6 playing in the tournament.
You win 1 bo3 you get as much as 5th place in MLG You win 2 bo3s and you get almost as much as 3rd place in MLG.
Its ridiculous to think that any proffessional player would consider winning MLG or IEM as being easy money after those kinds of comparisons. (LOL GROUP C)
This isnt code A, a month long slugfest for a small pot of gold. It pays. Huk and Jinro having played several ro64 and ro32s of code A/S know that their odds of winning 2 bo3s which they can prepare for are higher than winning a 3day foreigner tournament. Thats why they wont be at MLG.
If foreigners who have been IN Korea aren't even returning for the GSL Super Tournament despite direct invites, what does that say about GSL's chances of attracting foreigner players into their regular seasons?
For most foreigners, the incentives just aren't there. They see Jinro and Huk, struggling again and again in the GSL league system, while missing everything that's going on in the West, and ask, "why bother?" Why commit to competing in Korea, against stiffer competition, when there are so many opportunities outside of Korea that do not require the same amount of commitment?
MLG is a three-day affair. Dreamhack is similar. NASL and IPL are both online. GSL, by contrast, is months long, has top-stacked rewards, and requires living in a foreign country, away from family and friends, for extended periods of time. That is, if you intend to win something.
As far as I can tell, foreigners have already voted an initial "no" to the GSL system.
But hey, I guess we'll see what happens when the first MLG/GSL swap happens.
On May 18 2011 07:40 SaturnAttack wrote: I can't imagine GOM doing this for any other reason except the viewership numbers for GSL are much better with foreigners in the tournament. Even with all the money they put up for plane tickets / housing I can already sense it's going to fail.
A possible solution might be to have top X GSL finishers seeded for the next Code S competition, with the rest being drawn from separate Korean / International qualifiers. If foreigners really doesn't stack up simply decrease the number of slots foreign qualifiers can offer up to the GSL. I hate how little player movement the current system provides.
It's not just viewership. A lot of it has to do with international prestige and fame. From the PlayXP article someone translated:
I have no intention to criticize BW, but in last couple years, WC3 has over shadowed Korean E-sports scene. Koreans were very proud to be the power house in e-sports but there is no doubt that eyes of the foreign fans were on Europe and China where WC3 was a huge hit. It is our chance to reclaim those fans through the GSL, and once again become the undisputed powerhouse of E-sports. That is why need more foreign players to compete in the GSL. If the GSL provides Code A & Code S seeds based on a players performance in other international leagues, more foreign players will be more interested in competing.
Korea's WC 3 scene was a disaster after initial interest was quashed by map scandals. This is about leagues, not players. There were very good Korean WC 3 players like Moon, Lyn, and Remind, who were up there with the best from Europe and China, but with regards to leagues Korea was virtually invisible.
People didn't watch Korean WC 3 leagues. It was the European and Chinese leagues that they watched, and it was Europe/China that were the meccas of WC 3. The best Korean WC 3 players either signed on to Chinese/European teams, or traveled there constantly to compete. Their domestic scene was more or less a joke after the initial period of interest.
What the PlayXP writer, and perhaps GOM, is afraid of is that there would be a repeat of this in SC 2, where the Korean SC 2 scene would become isolated and then fade from public spotlight, and international attention would be focused elsewhere - whether Europe, NA, or China - just as it was in WC 3. This would be hugely damaging to Korea's eSports industry as SC 2 is shaping to be the next big thing in global eSports.
I guess it's just more of people not wanting to leave their home for extended periods of time. heck, even Idra left Korea already to go back. while he did last there a while, it is just too hard to go to a strange place and make a living there for a very long time. You'd rather be with family and friends and also a place that has the same main language you speak.
Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there.
Instead of direct seeds into Code S, why not direct seeds into up/down matches? Instead of Top 8 from Code A qualify, make it Top 4 with the other 4 spots being filled by top MLG finishers or whatever. Players who qualify for up/down this way don't get back into Code A next season, so if the foreign players don't make it through up/down, they go home. It's a one week commitment, nothing more, and it's only longer than that if you're in Code S.
Seems reasonable to me. I prefer it to giving away a bunch of Code S seeds, since Code S should be something very tough to achieve.
I had some doubts but this makes it clear. I thought the expense of traveling to Korea for foreigners was fully paid by GSL. So basically, amateurs without sponsors who are fully capable of winning GSL have to invest a lot of money at a shot at it. That sucks.
In another note, I don't think Code S and Code A divisions should exist. It should just be a one big tournament giving everyone a shot at the finals of the entire thing.
On May 18 2011 09:49 Hatsu wrote: A lot of good replies here, let me offer my two cents.
I think this could be solved by thinking a bit outside the box. For example:
1) Set a rule that requires GSL teams to have at least X (maybe 2) foreigners. This has been done in sports before and, while I am not sure GSL teams would be happy about it, might just work.
2) Set a rule that requires GSL teams to have a foreign team as a GSL partner, OGS-TLAF style. Which is a possibly more palatable version of option 1).
It would be helpful to know what teams actually offer a wage to players and how much (roughly) they pay though. I mean if players are not willing to go due to financial reasons, it must mean that they don't get paid much by their team no?
There are many issues with both choices such as:
A language barrier. I'd imagine many Korean progamers, team managers and coaches would not know English or Spanish or any other major non-Korean language that well and would suddenly bring a large language barrier into play when trying to incorporate one or two foreigners into their team.
I think very few foreign players have actually played for a Korean team, such as IdrA once playing for eSTRO and CJ Entus.
What incentives would there be for a progamer to join a team such as Old Generations, Incredible Miracle, Team SCV Life etc over joining a team in their own region? Apart from the experience of Korean culture you would go through of course?
With #2, how many foreign progaming teams would actually be willing to side with a Korean progaming team? Sure we got the oGs-TLAF house but other than that, no progaming team has made any sort of presence in Korea except for perhaps Evil Geniuses when IdrA was in the GSL.
Personally, I think a better idea for improving the GSL would be.
Dramatically increase the prize pool for Code A. Currently, you only earn the same amount for winning Code A as you do for getting knocked out of the first round of Code S. And if you ask me, while it may be arguably much harder to actually reach Code S status in the first place, it's still a lot harder to win Code A than it is to get knocked out of Code S if you ask me. Code A still has some very formiddable players like BoxeR, Jinro, MMA etc but the prize pool for Code A doesn't really feel like a good incentive at the moment.
Rather than require teams to sign at least two foreign progamers in order to compete in the GSL, open up an exchange programme where foreign teams can agree to loan their players to Korean teams for GSL events.
Drop the whole SC2 exclusivity deal and allow MBCGame and OnGameNet to establish televised StarCraft II leagues. That way, Koreans have more than one SC2 starleague at home to look forward to.
Add the ability to view the stream with GOM Player as an option but provide flash SQ/HQ streams otherwise. MLG has partially done it, the NASL has done it, the IPL has done it, and nearly every other event has done it. Why not the GSL?
Add a restream for American and European viewers like with the NASL. Either that or make the VODs ad supported and free in standard definition with an optional premium feature for HD VODs with no ads.
just the results of GSTL semifinals tell you how stacked Korea is right now... If you are a foreigner and you see guys like DRG who aren't even in Code A yet, why would you give up the wide array of NA/EU tourneys in order to get kicked in the a** by DRG and get nothing in return?
On May 18 2011 20:46 bkrow wrote: Great read Xeris and an insightful point of view from a person your unique position. There are most certainly problems with the development of the Korean scene; GSL is the be all and end all of any SC2 competitive scene in Korea and it provides large limitations on anyones' desires to move to Korea with very little pay off.
I think the biggest thing to remember is how many BW tournaments are there outside Korea? How many "BW exchange" programs were there during its peak? The Korean scene is taking steps in the right direction. We have had Korean participation in a lot of foreigner events (IEM and NASL) which is a somewhat unprecedented occurence. As SC2 develops and the divergence between Korea and the foreigners reduces i am sure will we see bigger efforts made to integrate the two scenes.
Comparing to BW is silly though cause no one outside Korea was close to the skill needed to properly to compete. Back when there was foreigners who could compete, they were in Korea and did ok without help from the tournament organizers. Like the example of HayprO, how much more is Gretech expected to do to accommodate players who truthfully are not at the highest level? It's not their fault he can't be financially supported by his gaming, it's up to the teams.
Basically if players are good enough to seriously compete, they will likely get the financial support needed to be able to go to Korea if they wish and live just fine. But these ideas for fixing a supposed problem seem to be aimed at getting honestly weaker players in there. If someone cannot seriously compete then there's no point even going over there at all, so fixing this 'problem' really only applies to a very small number of players outside of Korea.
IdrA could have stayed in Korea just fine, and i'm sure anyone else that level can do as well. Why try and get players over there who cannot compete, just hoping that the team houses will get them good enough? set up foreign houses. Play all the foreign tournaments. If you are top or close of them, then you are in a position to go to Korea. If not - you have no business going there!
On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote: Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
This is honestly a factor too. Makes me laugh when a player like Incontrol says he wouldn't go, when he's never been the caliber of player to compete over there at any point in time.
If GSL wants foreign players, it has to come to them IMHO.
WCG and IEM has regional events held locally. Then 1 international showdown. I think this the best route. They would have to think about expanding their business overseas. Heck, MLG is already doing that.
Then the events like MLG and such are short. Then there's the seperation of Code A and S. Even if a Korean were to be in the MLG Open Bracket, he can still take the whole tourney instead of winning it and then waiting until the next event for a chance at the real money.
On May 19 2011 02:59 DKo wrote: I had some doubts but this makes it clear. I thought the expense of traveling to Korea for foreigners was fully paid by GSL. So basically, amateurs without sponsors who are fully capable of winning GSL have to invest a lot of money at a shot at it. That sucks.
In another note, I don't think Code S and Code A divisions should exist. It should just be a one big tournament giving everyone a shot at the finals of the entire thing.
Just saw this post; What the hell? What amateurs without sponsors are even close to capable of winning the GSL, and why should they pay for their flights..
The major American sports organisations like NBA, NFL and NHL share one very important trait with the Korean starcraft 2 scene.
1. Dominant position versus other leagues > Native players want to play in Korean leagues > Little interest in the foreigner scene
2.Static structure > Once teams are established only economical troubles can force them out
My point is that with these similarities would it be possible to create a draft. Where foreign players each [arbitrary time period] can choose to apply for the Korean leagues. After the application process is over the Korean team can pick the available players. Like the American system the worst Korean pro-gaming team can then pick first and so on.
If this very sketchy idea was put into action team might have to have a cap on the rooster and that a greater emphasis was put on the teams. This idea needs further improvements and one step on the way could be that the teams had to use a foreigner in team matches. It could be that the Korean teams selected there best players to play in code A/S after determining the number of slots each team has during some kind of ranking mechanism.
What I get from it is that the opportunities for competition in Korea for foreigners are really too narrow. There's basically just GSL Code S, and Code A is a chance to get into Code S. On the foreign scene, you have lots of competitions, so you can endure a slump. Fenix, for example, was disappointing last IEM but is doing very well in the NASL.
Some people have said that "only the very very best of the best should compete." This is a wrong mindset to grow e-sports as an industry. You need professional-level players who are great, middling, and even bad (for pro players!). Professional golf could not be an industry if the only person who could live off it was Tiger Woods. I'm sure lots of pro golfers aspire to play like Tiger Woods, but there's probably also some people who are happy that they're able to play a game they love for a living.
On May 18 2011 20:46 bkrow wrote: Great read Xeris and an insightful point of view from a person your unique position. There are most certainly problems with the development of the Korean scene; GSL is the be all and end all of any SC2 competitive scene in Korea and it provides large limitations on anyones' desires to move to Korea with very little pay off.
I think the biggest thing to remember is how many BW tournaments are there outside Korea? How many "BW exchange" programs were there during its peak? The Korean scene is taking steps in the right direction. We have had Korean participation in a lot of foreigner events (IEM and NASL) which is a somewhat unprecedented occurence. As SC2 develops and the divergence between Korea and the foreigners reduces i am sure will we see bigger efforts made to integrate the two scenes.
Comparing to BW is silly though cause no one outside Korea was close to the skill needed to properly to compete. Back when there was foreigners who could compete, they were in Korea and did ok without help from the tournament organizers. Like the example of HayprO, how much more is Gretech expected to do to accommodate players who truthfully are not at the highest level? It's not their fault he can't be financially supported by his gaming, it's up to the teams.
Basically if players are good enough to seriously compete, they will likely get the financial support needed to be able to go to Korea if they wish and live just fine. But these ideas for fixing a supposed problem seem to be aimed at getting honestly weaker players in there. If someone cannot seriously compete then there's no point even going over there at all, so fixing this 'problem' really only applies to a very small number of players outside of Korea.
IdrA could have stayed in Korea just fine, and i'm sure anyone else that level can do as well. Why try and get players over there who cannot compete, just hoping that the team houses will get them good enough? set up foreign houses. Play all the foreign tournaments. If you are top or close of them, then you are in a position to go to Korea. If not - you have no business going there!
On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote: Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
This is honestly a factor too. Makes me laugh when a player like Incontrol says he wouldn't go, when he's never been the caliber of player to compete over there at any point in time.
I agree with both these posts. I think that foreigners are giving themselves too much credit when they say 1400$ is not enough for winning code A when they are not even good enough to probably get past the second round. There are only a couple of players who stand a chance against the Koreans like Idra and the rest have no chance of getting into code S imo. If they truly were good enough, then progamers that play starcraft for a living would go to Korea and try to win 90k.
A very well written article, and an enjoyable read as well. I agree with many of the points brought up, and would love to see the expansion of Esports globally
I think they should get rid of the Code S/A structure and instead just use one main tournament with 64 players, and one huge qualification tournament where everybody can play in. The bottom 32 of the big tournament will have to requalify, but get seeded into higher rounds of the qualification tournament. The MLG winner gets placed into the main tournament while the next best ones get high seeds in the qualification tournament as well. It's nearly the same in the end, but everybody who is capable enough can win the GSL in one big swoop.
On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote: Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there.
Koreans aren't exactly flying over here for 'easy money' either.
What i really cant understand is, the most prestigious league by far is the GSL. Any progamer across the world should aim to win it, since that is what proves you are the best. If money is such a big issue then why play sc2 at all? just get a bad-decent job (depending where you live) and earn alot more.
On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote: Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there.
Koreans aren't exactly flying over here for 'easy money' either.
What LAN in NA, or EU for that matter, would even be worth attending for the Koreans? 1st place prize money in the most prestigious LAN in NA is $5000. The GSL is in the tens of thousands. If the NA scene starts seeing 1st place prize money in the tens of thousands, I can guarantee you we'll be seeing more Koreans.
As for the dude you quoted. His post may come off as a little abbrasive and condescending, but I agree with him in principle.
If you want to be the best, Korea is where it's at. If you don't think you can compete, you can continue to make excuses and just stick to playing the smaller online events and coaching from home.
Yeah I agree with that sentiment. The foreigners don't want to go because they know they don't really have a chance to win so its obviously not worth risk/reward. GSL represents the cream of the crop top players. The competition in EU and NA is going to be much easier, so it will be easier making a living here as oppossed to korea. Idra leaves Korea and stomps everyone and makes easy money, makes sense from a business perspective. Easier opponents = more money.
Korea = toughest opponents = no money
Jinro and Huk are ballers and want to compete with the best, so they stay.
On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote: Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there.
Koreans aren't exactly flying over here for 'easy money' either.
What LAN in NA, or EU for that matter, would even be worth attending for the Koreans? 1st place prize money in the most prestigious LAN in NA is $5000. The GSL is in the tens of thousands. If the NA scene starts seeing 1st place prize money in the tens of thousands, I can guarantee you we'll be seeing more Koreans.
As for the dude you quoted. His post may come off as a little abbrasive and condescending, but I agree with him in principle.
If you want to be the best, Korea is where it's at. If you don't think you can compete, you can continue to make excuses and just stick to playing the smaller online events and coaching from home.
What the hell? Code A Championship: $1,400.
Yea, that's totally worth it. Then you need to win your Up/Down matches, then wait 2 months for the next GSL and then take another shot at it in Code S. I can see the MLG winner accepting the Code S invite, but I think they might have problems getting Code A invites.
This isn't about skill. It's everything to do with logistics. We have tournaments that offer better money than Code A. But Koreans don't come because just like Code A for non-Koreans, even if you win you might barely profit or break even, or worse take a hefty loss to the wallet. Most players don't make enough as it is. They don't need to go into debt too.
While Xeris may technically be correct in saying that his tips for GOM to improve are the only way to get more foreign participation, his tips strike me as too demanding. Making Code A online and giving foreigners direct invites into Code S are some pretty significant concessions, and I can't imagine they would sit well with all the Korean teams. GOM has to ask itself whether the benefits of increased foreign participation outweigh the costs of these concessions, which presumably would turn off the domestic scene which GOM is primarily catering to. We may just have to face that fact that at present, the logistical problems of sending players to a foreign country on the other side of the world are just too difficult to allow for significant foreign participation in the GSL.
On May 18 2011 16:11 0neder wrote: Meh, I don't blame them for giving foreigners less of a deal when all the foreigners that come can't compete or choke, then they decide they shouldn't waste slots on them anymore...
This, i agree. We would all love to see more foreigners in GSL, but there's no many who truly can compete with the Koreans.
I agree with the statement that the majority of the foreigners that have gone over have choked, but as the team liquid guys have shown us with determination you can be respectable in the korean scene and (I<3 TL), but i dont think jinro, huk, ret, idra are all that the foreign scene has to offer. If more NA/European teams had an agreement with a korean team like the TL/oGs partnership i could see Kiwikaki, Naniwa, Select, Thorzain, Morrow, Sen, TT1, Dimaga, WhiteRa and a number of many foreigners could do very well in GSL, just the problems that Xeris has stated, hold them back.
Ownos - Ok, so which players off the top of your head make a majority of their sc2 earnings from tournament winnings? They don't. They make their money coaching/streaming/sponsors. All the major tournaments with prize money worth playing for are online in the EU/NA. They have koreans in them. And they aren't doing too terrible.
Stop using bs excuses. First off, I haven't heard many people say they wouldn't take the invite. You are basing your opinion on what? Idra? Nony? Incontrol? Last I heard, thorzain and naniwa would both go. And I would assume(bad move I know) that there are plenty of others that would also love the chance.
This is an all expense paid trip for a month. You are making a name for yourself, getting exposure for sponsors, and playing in the best competition currently available for sc2. What are you missing out on? 100$ weekly tournaments? Yes, those are worth it. How much does idra make an hour coaching? 300$? Incontrol? 100$? Yea I am sure the tournament money is what is keeping them from going.
Stop giving credence to people that want to make a full time wage off a part time practice schedule. Those that have personal reasons not to go I understand. Otherwise, I would rather they didn't go if they don't feel they have the ability to win. Let those that deserve those code A slots have them.
I personally wouldn't want to have any of the GSL be an Online event. The biggest reason it is my favorite tournament to watch is that you get the whole "Live" atmosphere. If Code A was done online, I actually simply wouldn't watch it, and I am a pretty hardcore sc2 watching fan. I doubt many others would watch it in my stead. As to advance notice, it only seems fair that players have a lot of time to get ready to fly down to Korea. I hope that much is allowed ^.^
well if your ballers like nestea mvp, mc. you can make like $40,000 or more a month. not too bad. yes code a is a problem and hard but if your skilled enough to make code s, i think its worth it for having a chance to win $40,000 a month.
On May 19 2011 02:58 GeorgeForeman wrote: Instead of direct seeds into Code S, why not direct seeds into up/down matches? Instead of Top 8 from Code A qualify, make it Top 4 with the other 4 spots being filled by top MLG finishers or whatever. Players who qualify for up/down this way don't get back into Code A next season, so if the foreign players don't make it through up/down, they go home. It's a one week commitment, nothing more, and it's only longer than that if you're in Code S.
Seems reasonable to me. I prefer it to giving away a bunch of Code S seeds, since Code S should be something very tough to achieve.
A similar idea was mentioned by a caller on Live on Three tonight and I think it's a fantastic and simple solution. I would even say that MLG players could decide to stay in code A if they want (and have that be paid by GOM).
Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
No way in hell would I be alright with Code A being an online tournament. The quality of online tournaments take a huge blow, it's clear that none of the Korean players can even play close to the quality they are capable of when they have to deal with massive amounts of lag.
I think people are just overreacting. This new exchange between GSL and MLG has just begun and if the experience is good for both, it might materialize in something better.
I think we should just wait and see in a few months before jumping the gun on this one.
On May 18 2011 13:06 Barca wrote: Foreigners ask to be placed into Code S instead of Code A...
While everyone gets mad when Koreans placed into MLG...
I don't see the difference.
They're mad because foreigners arent being placed into code s and koreans are being placed(highly) into MLG.
The difference is a month long tournament for $1500 in exchange for 3 day long tourney, auto placement into like ro.16 for $5000. The payoffs for players just aren't equal, and people like equality.
The Koreans are flying in for a 3day gauntlet of a tournament... where as I could win a month in Korea. Hell, I could suck complete dick in Code A and not even care, I won a fucking trip to Korea - how can people not see the value in that in itself?
Idra and Incontrol may have said they wouldn't take it - but they're making money from other obligations whereas say Machine or Axslav may love to take that opportunity. Think about all of the smaller less-funded teams that would see it as incredible that one of their buds broke through at an MLG and got to go compete in the GSL win, lose or draw. It's fucking cool.
On May 18 2011 13:06 Barca wrote: Foreigners ask to be placed into Code S instead of Code A...
While everyone gets mad when Koreans placed into MLG...
I don't see the difference.
They're mad because foreigners arent being placed into code s and koreans are being placed(highly) into MLG.
The difference is a month long tournament for $1500 in exchange for 3 day long tourney, auto placement into like ro.16 for $5000. The payoffs for players just aren't equal, and people like equality.
Maybe if GOM got rid of prize money entirely from Code A and put them in Code, S then whiners would stop crying about Code A having so little prize money.
Online tournaments are terrible. The fact that the GSL is completely offline is one of the things that makes it the very best tournament. Also, since everyone is mentioning the SotG episode and the comments they made about the MLG/GSL exchange, I'll bring up something I'm surprised none of them did. I can see how they all overlooked it since they're obviously biased towards the foreign scene.
Anyhow, Koreans getting invited to the open bracket vs foreigners getting invited to Code A is hardly even comparable. Anyone can buy a pass and get placed into there, all MLG would be paying for is the ticket. The championship bracket isn't even very stacked if you look at some of the players in it. Compare this to Code A... Not a single foreigner has qualified for Code A although several have tried. HuK, Ret, Haypro, and Moonglade were invited and only HuK was able to stay. Jinro was already in Code S from the open season. Qualifying for Code A is harder than any MLG run will ever be and it is a HUGE privilege to get an invite. The problem lies with the prize distribution between Code A and Code S, everything else favours the foreigners. I'm sure GOM will be modifying that soon anyways.
Getting placed into Code S through anything other than good Code A performance is just ridiculous.
So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
Also, this is completely wrong. Invites to Code A were given and the foreigners performed less than impressively. Invites were also given for the world championship.
On May 18 2011 13:06 Barca wrote: Foreigners ask to be placed into Code S instead of Code A...
While everyone gets mad when Koreans placed into MLG...
I don't see the difference.
They're mad because foreigners arent being placed into code s and koreans are being placed(highly) into MLG.
The difference is a month long tournament for $1500 in exchange for 3 day long tourney, auto placement into like ro.16 for $5000. The payoffs for players just aren't equal, and people like equality.
Maybe if GOM got rid of prize money entirely from Code A and put them in Code, S then whiners would stop crying about Code A having so little prize money.
Maybe this is just going over my head, but why would reducing the prize pool stop people who are whining about the lack of money in the prize pool?
On May 18 2011 13:06 Barca wrote: Foreigners ask to be placed into Code S instead of Code A...
While everyone gets mad when Koreans placed into MLG...
I don't see the difference.
They're mad because foreigners arent being placed into code s and koreans are being placed(highly) into MLG.
The difference is a month long tournament for $1500 in exchange for 3 day long tourney, auto placement into like ro.16 for $5000. The payoffs for players just aren't equal, and people like equality.
Maybe if GOM got rid of prize money entirely from Code A and put them in Code, S then whiners would stop crying about Code A having so little prize money.
Maybe this is just going over my head, but why would reducing the prize pool stop people who are whining about the lack of money in the prize pool?
They might realize monetary reward isn't the reason to compete in Code A. You don't hear much crying when qualifiers don't pay out at all so I'm guessing that could do the trick. Then again, I don't really know what would satisfy them.
On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote: Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
I think Thorzain actually would be a perfect candidate for competing in the GSL. He's the kind of player who thrives when given time to prepare for his games, and that's one of the great things about the GSL and why the competition is good. In a small tournament there can be some pretty horrible sets, because they don't have any time to prepare and have to cram in as many games in a day as they do.
As sad as it sounds, I think Korea doesn't need foreigners. Yes, i, as a foreigner, really enjoy to cheer for any foreigner competing in the GSL but at the same time, why would GOM need to accommodate foreigners to participate in the GSL. It might give them a bit more viewers but i don't think they can still be a viable and expanding e-sports business without having foreigners in their tournament.
At the same time, E-sports is growing outside of Korea too. And that's a big reason why SC2 pro scene is different than SC1 and people easily forgets this. The next big thing could be elsewhere but it seems people are too focused about Korea since it all began there. Korea might be "The Mecca" of Starcraft and rightfully so but foreigners are a bit different than Koreans on practice routines, culture, etc and why would Korea need to accommodate us, the foreigners. No reason. So if pros want to go there, well just figure out a way to earn your code S status. Jinro, Idra and Huk have done it so why others couldn't. If it's too much of a sacrifice, then don't go. It's not just about the money but for pride and honor too. And we, as foreigners, tends to forget about this.
On another note, i agree that teams should get notified soon. That's the only legitimate complaint.
it's pretty obvious that financially, you are against huge odds if you're trying to compete and win money in the korean scene as a foreigner.
the competition in korea is simply much much much stronger and competitive compared to the foreign scene. there's less minor tourneys and only one major tourney in korea so there's less chance to make money if you perform badly in one tournament in korea.
but in foreign countries, although the prize money is less usually, there are much more tournaments so people have a higher chance of earning more money competing in foreign tourneys because first there's more chances to compete, and second, the competition is much less skilled.
but that does not mean GomTV should make separate arrangements to forcibly accommodate more foreigners into the GSL by compromising quality (aka online tourneys);
no offense but GomTV has no obligation to do such a thing and that also applies to foreign tourneys; foreign tourneys also have no obligation to make separate arrangements to accommodate koreans.
so if you're wanting to see more foreigners in GSL but sad that you aren't seeing more, don't blame GomTV but rather, blame foreigners for not making it past qualifiers, the lack of abundance of tourneys in korea (due to blizzard's monopoly on gom), the abundance of cheap, less competitive tourneys outside of korea which makes it more financially tempting to foreign pros.
The funny thing to me is that at most the players would miss like 1 decent size Lan by going to Korea. What they would miss most is online tourneys. Yet there's still people here who take online results seriously, like TSL and NASL. But apparently the lag from Korea is so bad its not even worth it for foreign pros to play online from there? Kinda puts that whole argument to rest doesnt it.
On May 19 2011 12:09 antelope591 wrote: The funny thing to me is that at most the players would miss like 1 decent size Lan by going to Korea. What they would miss most is online tourneys. Yet there's still people here who take online results seriously, like TSL and NASL. But apparently the lag from Korea is so bad its not even worth it for foreign pros to play online from there? Kinda puts that whole argument to rest doesnt it.
i dont think the koreans realised how bad it would be when they applied for tsl/nasl. also i think they also thought even if it is bad, we can just beat them anyway. Also, if you get used to the delay, its really quite playable.
On May 19 2011 02:08 dp wrote: Stop making excuses for mediocre players. The reason they don't want to go is because they don't think they can win(besides those with personal reasons for not going of course, which I fully understand).
They still have the ability to play in all the MAJOR online tournaments. Sure, they will have to play with the same disadvantage the koreans currently do, but it doesn't seem to be a complete waste of time for them, so why would it be for those players moving there?
Its just endless excuses from players that want to stay mediocre and continue to make decent money. I have never heard of a month long all expense paid trip as a bad thing. You can still stream, you can still coach, and you can still play in most online tournaments that are worth joining.
There are so many worthwhile players that haven't been able to break into code a yet, and foreigners given a bye into it would pass that up? Good. If you don't want to be the best, I really don't mind not seeing you there.
I totally agree, the negativity surrounding this is totally unwarranted. Its an all expenses paid trip to korea people with a seed into code a for 3 and a seed into code s for the winner of MLG. How can this be a bad thing in anyway. The only reason a foreigner wouldnt want to go is because they dont think they are good enough and even then it would be a great experience to have regardless its all expenses paid if you get knocked out in the first week you can go home no harm no foul or you can stay for the experience for a few weeks. Everyone keeps saying GSL is a month but from the first code a game to finals its really only 3 weeks max including up and down matches and the week break fromm code s for the finals. If you get far in code a then its worth it to stay, no matter what people say if you win code a and you still do coaching /online tournaments in korea, its still more than 90% of players are going to make of prize money in a month including maybe winning an online tournament are two (if you are that talented and would have done it anyways ) the extra 1,400 is going to probably put you ahead of alot of your foreign brethren. Also with the MLG exchange program its not like your ever going to miss an MLG, you participate in MLG get top 3 and go to korea for a month and have ample time to decide weather your going to stay for a month a go back in wich case you will be home for mlg, or if you get into code s GSL now makes time for MLG so you can travel to MLG like all the koreans are doing anyways.
Its not like there isnt any progamers that want to go to korea. Look at the Rakaka raod to korea tournament there were alot of the top players from sweden that wanted to go, the only prize was the trip to korea so they wouldnt have signed up if they didnt want to go and that trip wasnt even all expenses paid like the mlg exchange program is offering (it included plane ticket and accomadation at the gom house) I honestly think any progamer that is free and doesnt have any prior engagements or commitments in their home country would be foolish (if there skill level is high) to no go and try out korea for a month , worst case scenario you lose in the first round and you got a free trip to korea and you leave a week or so after you got there, does that sound as terrible as everyone is trying to make it out to be? lol im so suprised at the amount of people that are trying to turn this amazing opportunity into a negative one.
Its an all expenses paid vacation at the very least, and if you are good a great opportunity to play with the best players in the world in the best tournament in the world with the biggest prize pool.
On May 19 2011 12:09 antelope591 wrote: The funny thing to me is that at most the players would miss like 1 decent size Lan by going to Korea. What they would miss most is online tourneys. Yet there's still people here who take online results seriously, like TSL and NASL. But apparently the lag from Korea is so bad its not even worth it for foreign pros to play online from there? Kinda puts that whole argument to rest doesnt it.
i dont think the koreans realised how bad it would be when they applied for tsl/nasl. also i think they also thought even if it is bad, we can just beat them anyway. Also, if you get used to the delay, its really quite playable.
Even if it is bad, July Ace moon sen and boxer are doing really well in the NASL, i would argue they would probably all be closer to the top if the lag wasnt there, but all they have to do is make it to the top 16 then they can accert their true domination. So if a foreigner goes over there its not like they wont beable to compete in these events and not have a chance and like i said if they lose in the first round they can pack up and go home, otherwise its worth it to stay for a chance at code s, if you get into code s and even just stay middle of the pack your gonna make more money then 90% of foreigners and you can still travel to most major lans.
I think the biggest issue here is, Korea just doesn't seem to understand what foreigners have to go through, And as horrible as it may sound, I think they just don't really care for them as much as they do for Koreans.
It's not just Korea, pretty much every country will take care of THEIR country's people. But when other countries get involved, it's like "awesome, we will help u as much as we can (without actually helping.)" So........ yeah....... Korea needs to step it up and make it better for foreigners.
Also..... I don't like this straight to Code S invite idea. I think Code S should be earned. The way it is being done now.
On May 19 2011 12:09 antelope591 wrote: The funny thing to me is that at most the players would miss like 1 decent size Lan by going to Korea. What they would miss most is online tourneys. Yet there's still people here who take online results seriously, like TSL and NASL. But apparently the lag from Korea is so bad its not even worth it for foreign pros to play online from there? Kinda puts that whole argument to rest doesnt it.
i dont think the koreans realised how bad it would be when they applied for tsl/nasl. also i think they also thought even if it is bad, we can just beat them anyway. Also, if you get used to the delay, its really quite playable.
Yeah but my point is if it IS playable then the making no money in Korea argument doesn't exist because a foreigner who's there can still participate in any tournament that might be going on at the same time as GSL since pretty much all of them are online.
On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote: Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
I think Thorzain actually would be a perfect candidate for competing in the GSL. He's the kind of player who thrives when given time to prepare for his games, and that's one of the great things about the GSL and why the competition is good. In a small tournament there can be some pretty horrible sets, because they don't have any time to prepare and have to cram in as many games in a day as they do.
You're missing his point, we're assuming Thorzains skill off 1 online tournament, he has no other results to back him up. While he may be very skilled, he still needs more time to establish himself in the scene.
edit: My 2 cents. Many foreigners are not going to Korea because they know they don't stand a chance at winning. If they do stand a chance, it's very very slim. Other than personal issues related to health, family, etc., there's no reason why anyone should stay away from Korea, other than the fact that they know they can't keep up.
On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote: Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
I think Thorzain actually would be a perfect candidate for competing in the GSL. He's the kind of player who thrives when given time to prepare for his games, and that's one of the great things about the GSL and why the competition is good. In a small tournament there can be some pretty horrible sets, because they don't have any time to prepare and have to cram in as many games in a day as they do.
You're missing his point, we're assuming Thorzains skill off 1 online tournament, he has no other results to back him up. While he may be very skilled, he still needs more time to establish himself in the scene.
edit: My 2 cents. Many foreigners are not going to Korea because they know they don't stand a chance at winning. If they do stand a chance, it's very very slim. Other than personal issues related to health, family, etc., there's no reason why anyone should stay away from Korea, other than the fact that they know they can't keep up.
But i feel like that's the exact point everyone's trying to make. To go to Korea, fight through code A, and basically WIN code S, you have to have a LOT going for you (either be retardedly better than everyone, which hasn't happened for anyone yet, or get a few good matchups, maybe a little luck in your play), you're going to lose money.
You're going to lose money because you're going to be spending all your time preparing for ONE offline tournament, and not worrying about the dozen online ones that happen in NA / EUR every week. just because you have the potential to win 100k won, doesn't mean that the payout for you giving up all the chances you have in the west is going to be worth it.
I feel like it's a lot to gamble on, because even if you ARE better than the rest of the field, you might have an off day or something on one of the early rounds, and boom. you're done.
Nobody plays perfect 100% of the time. You are never guaranteed to win the GSL (code A or S for that matter). So it's a lot safer for teams to funnel their players into all these online tournaments that are constantly popping up, since travel expenses are near zero, and they can participate in several at the same time.
Didn't incontrol say his skill doubled while in Korea? Maybe players should look at it as training so they can win a lot more when they get back.
I think if blizzard got cross continent lag sorted out so it was the same level as broodwar almost all problems would be solved wouldn't it? Then online cups wouldn't be much problem and they are scheduling around MLG.
Great read. I love this whole intertwining of the foreign and korean e-sports scene. Trouble stated here aside, I'm very much looking forward to how it plays out and what develops over the next few years.
a good read... nice perspective on the issue of going to korea as opposed to just "we don't like living over there esports is booming in the west kekeke"
IMO this is just ok since Korea is the Mecca of SC, until there are other places that can contest this. This gives it an aura of prestige and mystique, as it should not be something people can do just when they want to do and maybe even out of luck. It has to be a product of hardwork. But I agree in having Code As online. While were at it, why dont we have more rigid qualifications for Code S so that it really means something, like being SClass in BW, and not just a titular degree that anyone can have.
On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote: Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
I think Thorzain actually would be a perfect candidate for competing in the GSL. He's the kind of player who thrives when given time to prepare for his games, and that's one of the great things about the GSL and why the competition is good. In a small tournament there can be some pretty horrible sets, because they don't have any time to prepare and have to cram in as many games in a day as they do.
You're missing his point, we're assuming Thorzains skill off 1 online tournament, he has no other results to back him up. While he may be very skilled, he still needs more time to establish himself in the scene.
edit: My 2 cents. Many foreigners are not going to Korea because they know they don't stand a chance at winning. If they do stand a chance, it's very very slim. Other than personal issues related to health, family, etc., there's no reason why anyone should stay away from Korea, other than the fact that they know they can't keep up.
But i feel like that's the exact point everyone's trying to make. To go to Korea, fight through code A, and basically WIN code S, you have to have a LOT going for you (either be retardedly better than everyone, which hasn't happened for anyone yet, or get a few good matchups, maybe a little luck in your play), you're going to lose money.
You're going to lose money because you're going to be spending all your time preparing for ONE offline tournament, and not worrying about the dozen online ones that happen in NA / EUR every week. just because you have the potential to win 100k won, doesn't mean that the payout for you giving up all the chances you have in the west is going to be worth it.
I feel like it's a lot to gamble on, because even if you ARE better than the rest of the field, you might have an off day or something on one of the early rounds, and boom. you're done.
Nobody plays perfect 100% of the time. You are never guaranteed to win the GSL (code A or S for that matter). So it's a lot safer for teams to funnel their players into all these online tournaments that are constantly popping up, since travel expenses are near zero, and they can participate in several at the same time.
Your acting like its alot of money they are missing out on but really it isnt. They can still participate in NASL koreans do it and most of them are doing fine. All the other smaller online tournaments dont really amount to much, look at the tournament round up besides when a big tournament is happening or happened the top dog usually has between 1-2k. THAT IS THE TOP DOG! thats 1 person the rest are sitting anywhere fromm 600-1000. Thats not really missing out on much, sure tournament round up happens every two weeks, but its not like your gonna be the top dog every 2 weeks, or your gonna make that constantly, thats 1 person out of 100's of pro gamers participating in tournaments.
People keep saying your missing out on so much in terms of online tournaments, but all that is just potential income , the potential income of the gsl is more than all of these smaller tournaments combined over a period of months. Obviously your chances of winning a smaller tournament here and there are greater than winning the GSL, but if you get into code s, if your consistently making it out of the round of 32 (or even not sometimes) your going to be making more than the top dog in the west. Also remember gsl happens over 3 weeks not a month, and if you dont do well or get knocked out early you can return home a week after you got there, it was all expenses paid no harm no foul, you get far in the tournament, then obviously its worth it to stay, and if you dont make it into code s who cares, its only 3 weeks where MAYBE you would have won a smaller online tournament or 2 maybe....
For people who are in good positions in the NASL right now (skilled players) it isnt going to be a huge deal for them to compete over there and get a chance at code S. Either way it doesnt really matter because NASL will be over by the time the next GSL starts and nobody has any idea when the next one is going to start. Defenetly for the next GSL in July its probably a perfect time to go, IPL will probably be close to being over or already over meaning at worst there are 2-4 players that IPL applies to ( its a 32 person tournament if im not mistaken its not going to take months) and NASL will be over all your going to miss out on is smaller online tournaments, and your never going to miss MLG's because you will have just completed your MLG and then you will be off to korea , there is a conflict with the super tournament sort of but that only happens once a year.
I do believe that if GOM had a studio let's say in the US and EU, programming their match in that type of control environment and live between NA/EU and KR players it could be really nice. The server location would decide the time plan (3-4am for the NA maybe), but still a online + local studio, that could be a nice idea~
GSL / GOM could benefit from local sponsor as well, increasing their impact in term of advertissement and expanding globally in a more realistic way, not just exchanging players.
I don't understand the title, the problem with Korea, why is Korea a problem? Why do people use words such as "problem" to describe the state of SC2?
Korean ladder has more players with higher skill level. Korean fan base is much more prevalent and more devoted. These are all obvious facts, they are not problems by any means. If you want something like that to happen in any other countries, you have to raise the awareness of e-sports. You need to change the nerdy culture and increase your fan base.
Instead of bashing Korea's environment for foreigners, why not think of something constructive for your corresponding region?
On May 19 2011 14:48 twndomn wrote: I don't understand the title, the problem with Korea, why is Korea a problem? Why do people use words such as "problem" to describe the state of SC2?
Korean ladder has more players with higher skill level. Korean fan base is much more prevalent and more devoted. These are all obvious facts, they are not problems by any means. If you want something like that to happen in any other countries, you have to raise the awareness of e-sports. You need to change the nerdy culture and increase your fan base.
Instead of bashing Korea's environment for foreigners, why not think of something constructive for your corresponding region?
read the OP and you find all the answers you are looking for.
On May 19 2011 14:48 twndomn wrote: I don't understand the title, the problem with Korea, why is Korea a problem? Why do people use words such as "problem" to describe the state of SC2?
Korean ladder has more players with higher skill level. Korean fan base is much more prevalent and more devoted. These are all obvious facts, they are not problems by any means. If you want something like that to happen in any other countries, you have to raise the awareness of e-sports. You need to change the nerdy culture and increase your fan base.
Instead of bashing Korea's environment for foreigners, why not think of something constructive for your corresponding region?
read the OP and you find all the answers you are looking for.
I think there is no hope for him anymore....the OP is a mystery to him.
We could also set up the same system for code A & S elsewhere in the world under gom rankings for the region and have a global GSL in a touring locale for the event?
just a thought ^.^
Id like to see more foreigners in GSL too but its still pretty awesome with koreans but we all need equal opportunities
On May 19 2011 16:31 Broodie wrote: We could also set up the same system for code A & S elsewhere in the world under gom rankings for the region and have a global GSL in a touring locale for the event?
just a thought ^.^
Id like to see more foreigners in GSL too but its still pretty awesome with koreans but we all need equal opportunities
Why does everyone need equal opportunities? You make your choice. Play several US/Euro events and win as much as one GSL or play the GSL itself and hope to win one of those. If you're not prepared to take said risk then play the other events. I agree that the MLG to GSL ratio isn't fair, but they're not the same event, so it won't ever be fair to the players and the organizations at the same time. The pro makes their choice and lives with it. I don't see why this needs to be escalated. If there were only Koreans in the GSL I figure probably 99.9% of the current watchers would still watch because it is obviously still the best tournament. I don't see why this needs a thread to explain why foreigners who probably wouldn't win anything (except maybe a jinro, naniwa, select, and perhaps a couple others) wouldn't show up risking their easier foreign money to win a much harder GSL event.
Agree with Xeris on the most part. I guess the guts of the problem is that foreigners simply can't boss their way through a cut-throat tournament. Like people say, the average standard of Korean players are just much higher, on the ladder and out Code A / B. Some of the Code S players at the moment are still waiting to be relegated and I am sure more of Losira, DongRaeGu, Bomber and the like are still coming through the ranks. The standard is just going to get higher and I guess foreigners can't keep up. While at the same time, Koreans also don't want to fly out to events (because they are expensive) so it becomes tit-for-tat. I guess WCG is the final battleground for the bragging rights :p
New format changes to GSL and a consistent team league are making korea look more and more appealing for foreigners.
Winner of code a gets a direct seed into code s, as well as its harder to get out of code s now, and slightly easier to get into code s. Seems like some awesome changes, as well as a much bigger prize for the team league.
On May 19 2011 14:48 twndomn wrote: I don't understand the title, the problem with Korea, why is Korea a problem? Why do people use words such as "problem" to describe the state of SC2?
Korean ladder has more players with higher skill level. Korean fan base is much more prevalent and more devoted. These are all obvious facts, they are not problems by any means. If you want something like that to happen in any other countries, you have to raise the awareness of e-sports. You need to change the nerdy culture and increase your fan base.
Instead of bashing Korea's environment for foreigners, why not think of something constructive for your corresponding region?
I argue with that, GSL finals have about what, 300-500 people watching and it's free?
DreamHack invitational was 1 day, cost 17$ to attend and had 540 spots, 3 days after it was announced (more than two months prior to it) the tickets were sold out, it was packed, people were shouting and cheering since the VERY start (even before the start), when the players game out the crowd went wild and when JinrO came out people started stomping in the ground aswell as cheering. As did they do during many exciting moments in the tournament, especially the finals where people where cheering their godamn guts out. They had no korean balloons to smack, only swedish nerdism.
I'm not comparing, and perhaps it's the lack of alternatives or whatnot, but that crowd was the best e-sports crowd I've seen and I've seen a shitton. However there are ofcourse other examples during dreamhack winter where the swedish crowd sucked ass but I blame the shitty locale, the industry lightening (nerds shun light) and the lack of clear competition... when games were played on the main scene people were wild tho.
Nobody here dislikes Korea, but I do believe alot of us Westerners are disappointed in atleast the korean fanbase, I know I am. I like what BW has done for esports and whatnot but I realize it has no real future and that is the truth. Still the korean public seems to shun SC2 and I do understand this because the quality of BW in korea AND the shitty publicity (or lack thereof) that SC2 has in Korea due to only 1 major tournament going on and alot of instability as people did not have the game worked out. If there had been a tournament of the caliber of GSL in Sweden I do believe the studio would be packed every godamn day and the finals would be a shitstorm of crazy nerds, just look the the photo vacation Artosis had in Thailand (or whereever that was in south-asia) where the fans were wild, painting their faces with their team colours, having shirts of the teams etc. etc. it was a folkevent, not just a tournament.
This may not be the case, but I imagine Koreans getting somewhat offended or distressed if a foreigner were to win the GSL. I'm going to relate this to the American Hot Dog Eating Contest. When Kobayashi won 6 times in a row, I was actually frustrated. I didn't think "Wow that guy has great speed-eating skill and deserves to win." I thought "How the hell did that asian guy beat the Americans at a Hot Dog Eating Contest?! Who does he think he is?!" I do not know how Koreans view foreign SC players, but if it is anything similar to my Hot Dog Eating Contest opinion, that may be the reason not as many foreigners are competing in the GSL.
I do like the collaboration between GSL and MLG and hope to see some more skilled foreigners competing with the top Koreans.
Since GSL literally means Global Starcraft League, shouldnt that mean there should be a SC2 league for each region in the world set up by GOM, i think that would be sweet... then the top 8 in the points ranking compete in the "Super Tournament" from each region.
On May 20 2011 13:43 Misoza wrote: I think a huge problem is that the Code A prize pool is so low.
I really think this is the biggest problem right now. Code S is the only viable tournament in Korea right now. And thats only 32 players. I really don't understand why Code A is so low in prize money. Until that gets changed, I don't see many foreigners going over to Korea.
On May 19 2011 14:48 twndomn wrote: I don't understand the title, the problem with Korea, why is Korea a problem? Why do people use words such as "problem" to describe the state of SC2?
Korean ladder has more players with higher skill level. Korean fan base is much more prevalent and more devoted. These are all obvious facts, they are not problems by any means. If you want something like that to happen in any other countries, you have to raise the awareness of e-sports. You need to change the nerdy culture and increase your fan base.
Instead of bashing Korea's environment for foreigners, why not think of something constructive for your corresponding region?
That would be BW.. SC2 hasn't really taken off in Korea as e-sport.
On May 19 2011 12:01 monx wrote: As sad as it sounds, I think Korea doesn't need foreigners. Yes, i, as a foreigner, really enjoy to cheer for any foreigner competing in the GSL but at the same time, why would GOM need to accommodate foreigners to participate in the GSL. It might give them a bit more viewers but i don't think they can still be a viable and expanding e-sports business without having foreigners in their tournament.
At the same time, E-sports is growing outside of Korea too. And that's a big reason why SC2 pro scene is different than SC1 and people easily forgets this. The next big thing could be elsewhere but it seems people are too focused about Korea since it all began there. Korea might be "The Mecca" of Starcraft and rightfully so but foreigners are a bit different than Koreans on practice routines, culture, etc and why would Korea need to accommodate us, the foreigners. No reason. So if pros want to go there, well just figure out a way to earn your code S status. Jinro, Idra and Huk have done it so why others couldn't. If it's too much of a sacrifice, then don't go. It's not just about the money but for pride and honor too. And we, as foreigners, tends to forget about this.
On another note, i agree that teams should get notified soon. That's the only legitimate complaint.
It's the other way around pal, GSL needs Thorzain and Naniwa. As it is right now, GSL has no way of competing with BW inside Korea and their best hope is to expand their international audience. On the other hand, foreign events can do just fine without Koreans -- see IPL.
So basically, foreigners don't like SC as much as Koreans, b/c they're not willing to give up everything to be the best when they can get by winning piecemeal online tourneys against decent amateurs and having decent showings at bigger foreigner events.
Meh, I'll keep rooting for Jinro and HuK. At least Tyler has a good excuse (a wife).
On May 19 2011 16:31 Broodie wrote: We could also set up the same system for code A & S elsewhere in the world under gom rankings for the region and have a global GSL in a touring locale for the event?
just a thought ^.^
Id like to see more foreigners in GSL too but its still pretty awesome with koreans but we all need equal opportunities
Why does everyone need equal opportunities?
I think the issue is more or less the name .... GLOBAL Starcraft League implies that it is for everyone, where in truth it is practical for Koreans only. Traveling over there for the qualifier alone is expensive and it should be a league which involves the rest of the world a little more.
What if the GSL would travel around the world for each season just like the world championships for major sports are held in different countries all the time? One in Seoul, the next in New York, then Stockholm, ... that would equalize the chances a bit IMO and it might be a great move to make the thing more popular. Since they are working together with MLG GOM might get logistical support to set up the venues and I doubt there would be a lack of Sponsors for locations and traveling expenses (Pepsi in the US ?) if lots of people show up.
On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote: Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
I did.. Iron was ~30% W.R. in BW getting beaten by the likes Nal keke and Hogil, and now is SC2 king.. Thorzain beat him convincingly in the TSL Ro.8 .. And seriously, if Huk is in code S, Naniwa and Thorzain at the least could be in Code S and probably do better.
On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote: Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
I did.. Iron was ~30% W.R. in BW getting beaten by the likes Nal keke and Hogil, and now is SC2 king.. Thorzain beat him convincingly in the TSL Ro.8 .. And seriously, if Huk is in code S, Naniwa and Thorzain at the least could be in Code S and probably do better.
What does BW career have to do with SC2 career? Also Thorzain beat MC by 1 game if I'm not mistaken. Other than that though I agree Thorzain could probably do great in GSL, though I have heard that he does not perform as well in live events.
On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote: Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
I did.. Iron was ~30% W.R. in BW getting beaten by the likes Nal keke and Hogil, and now is SC2 king.. Thorzain beat him convincingly in the TSL Ro.8 .. And seriously, if Huk is in code S, Naniwa and Thorzain at the least could be in Code S and probably do better.
What does BW career have to do with SC2 career? Also Thorzain beat MC by 1 game if I'm not mistaken. Other than that though I agree Thorzain could probably do great in GSL, though I have heard that he does not perform as well in live events.
The point is Iron isn't Flash or Jaedong... he doesn't really come close to having 400-500APM, the game sense, the decision making and work ethic of those two monsters. Foreigners can really compete as Thorzain showed in the TSL. Oh the TSL final was a live event, what you heard is something Naniwa said in an pre-game interview to psych him out.
On May 19 2011 10:00 Holcan wrote: Thorzain won TSL and now he can compete in GSL? Lets be realistic guys, at least do some research on the players you're talking about. Thorzain as great of a player, and nice of a guy he is, does not deserve to go to Korea over a GSL win, he has another 6 months of solid results before that.
I did.. Iron was ~30% W.R. in BW getting beaten by the likes Nal keke and Hogil, and now is SC2 king.. Thorzain beat him convincingly in the TSL Ro.8 .. And seriously, if Huk is in code S, Naniwa and Thorzain at the least could be in Code S and probably do better.
Indeed.
I wouldn't expect Thorzain or Naniwa to win GSL (particularly since they'd have to adapt to different housing/living/practice circumstances) but certainly they could compete in Code S without embarrassing themselves.
Xeris, you hit the nail so directly on the head that it defied physics and it shot through the world. I think direct code S seeds are really the only way to make it appealing enough to be worthwhile.
You've gotta give Gom a lot of credit for all this foreign involvement though, they really are trying. The truth of the matter is, I don't think it's very economical for any party to send a player to Korea, really.
Well said Xeris. IMO, there's so much more opportunity outside of Korea that it's just not worth going there just to compete in the GSL. I think players like Idra, Ret, and HayprO made the right choice. Jinro and HuK are extremely dedicated. I wish them the best of success in the GSL, but if they ultimately decide to return to the non-Korean scene, I can fully understand that.
I loved this. It's very hard to not see this logic. Also, starcraft 2 gamers are old man... I mean not all of them are but many. They can't just move for a month so the online idea is splendid
This was a good read, and although I knew a lot of this information, I still found it quite informative.
Really curiuos to see the Korean netizen reactions to this article.
As for this...
Sure it's amazing to see foreigners in Korea, and everyone loved all the footage of the pros at the GOM house practicing and having fun, but spectators don't get to see or know about the behind the scenes organizational stuff that makes working with GOM and getting people to Korea really difficult.
I think inviting people into Code S directly is a bad idea, they did that in Code A and it was a disaster in the foreigners part, since barely two people got out of the first round. It also wasted spots for great koreans to play.
The part where Code A becomes online is kinda problematic, because thats one way for GOM to make revenue and how can they cast it?, from replays?
I think the best way for it to become foreigner friendly is that, they make each tourney a week shorter, but i guess if you cant do that if you want to cast all games live.
I'm also of the opinion that the GSL/MLG exchange won't work out (at least for foreigners) because its very diferent for a players do a 3 day commitment (MLG) and do one month commitment (GSL). The good side is that at least they are looking with better eyes to the foreign scene and are trying to integrate both scenes and make SC2 as global and interesting as they can.
Really great post. Im glad someone took the time to sit down and identify the problems about Korea. The biggest thing also which Incontrol loves to point out is the fact that you cannot make any money over there in a 1 month period when your exclusively playing code A. There is much more prize money to be won at other tournaments. The direct invite to code S would definitely change that.
On May 20 2011 17:20 viii wrote: I think inviting people into Code S directly is a bad idea, they did that in Code A and it was a disaster in the foreigners part, since barely two people got out of the first round. It also wasted spots for great koreans to play.
The part where Code A becomes online is kinda problematic, because thats one way for GOM to make revenue and how can they cast it?, from replays?
I think the best way for it to become foreigner friendly is that, they make each tourney a week shorter, but i guess if you cant do that if you want to cast all games live.
Those were just random guys who were in korea getting invites, this is people placing high in one of the top foreign tournaments. Lets look at previous MLG winners, Huk, Idra, Jinro and Naniwa 3 of these guys have already been to Korea and shown that they can compete at code S level.
I agree that code A being online would be silly but Online Code B (or at least the ability for foreigners to attept code B) might be something they could look into.
but isnt playing online on korean server from eu or na induce such a lag cmd that you rly need to be twice better(unlikely) to win ? i mean tsl 3 mvp nestea mc
On May 20 2011 18:54 laurine90 wrote: but isnt playing online on korean server from eu or na induce such a lag cmd that you rly need to be twice better(unlikely) to win ? i mean tsl 3 mvp nestea mc
On May 18 2011 05:09 Xeris wrote: It's a Code A invite, unless I'm horribly mistaken...
Hey Habit!!
My understanding is that this MLG is only like 3 Code A invites, but future MLGs will be winner gets Code S + a few Code As.
Can someone clarify?
yes, that's correct. for MLGs after columbus, 1st place will go into code S. the next 3 players if 1st place is non-korean or next 4 players is 1st place is korean will have a spot in code A.
nice writeup xeris, i'd send this to torch/junkka,/chae jungwon if i were you. while it helps us to understand, it would help them to improve.
Ah okay, I didn't know that 1st place (after Columbus) gets a Code S spot. BUT, I still don't think this is enough. After Columbus, you'll probably have 6-7 Koreans instead of 4. There is a high probability that a Korean will win MLG as long as Koreans are still attending. So the Code S spot could realistically go to a Korean every single season. Especially given that 1st gets into Code S, you could likely see a LOT of Koreans go just for the Code S chance (play for 1 month in Code A, or play for 3 days and get Code S).
In the most ideal case, the players to be sent to MLG should already be Code S. (they are determined by a point system)
I hate to say this and i neva thought of the idea before but i think sc2 in korea would be much better (as in more tourneys like elsewhere) if gom didn't have a monopoly over the sc2 scene in sk, although they would probably be dead if they didn't. Speaking of which, their exclusive rights expires approximately 2 years so we'll see how that goes.
Code A needs overhaul anyway. Having it as online tourney sounds very good idea.
Whitch makes me think about it, it would free the studio for more Code S. Personally my biggest concern about Code S is that there is so small amount of games, that people get eliminated at very fast pace. The less games players have to fight each other the bigger the luck factor is, and i dont like it when people get lucky streaks instead of winning with pure skill. It leads into people like MVP dropping into code A etc...
On May 20 2011 19:03 Parcelleus wrote: The problem isnt Korea, its everywhere else.
This much is true, Korea can provide the venue but if a team does not possess the funds to send their players over then maybe Korea is not for them just yet. Partnerships with korean teams could be a possibility, but then you would need talented people with great networking and managing skills to pull it off. Team Liquid could do it so why can't EG/Dignitas/mouz etc?
I see literally no barriers to this, it only takes the right people to make it happen.
[edit]
I share in the opinion however that there needs to be multiple tournaments running monthly in Korea to make it even more interesting for both international and national players. But this might be harder to pull off unless Starcraft 2 really starts captivating people the way BW does.
And GOM has done so much for Starcraft 2 already it's ridiculous, they can't provide for foreign players any more than they have already done and (have to say it again) they have done SO MUCH for foreigners. If GOM was personified into human flesh I would consider spending the rest of my life with it.
I can understand the OP's standpoint regarding notifications, it needs to be reasonably early so teams can prepare accordingly. What I don't understand is the other things..
The point with Code S is that its supposed to be hard to get into. Why the fuck would anyone want free Code S passes handed out on a regular free basis??? It SHOULD be hard to get into Code S, and honestly: I don't understand the logic that its to hard to go through Code A but at the same token it would be better that winners of western tournaments gets into Code S.. So Code A is too hard to win so lets give other tournaments (and with that logic they have to be easier to win, right?) winners Code S-passes. I don't know about you but I'd be seriously pissed off if i was one of the many many many koreans in Code A that doesn't get an invitation to MLG or whatever.
It would be like giving a gold medal to the guy who finishes third place.
gom already got ton of backlash for inviting foreigners to code a i think a direct invite to code s would be a great insult to korean players, especially since most players would do horribly in code s.
Great topic/post, but I think everything could be simplified if they just made Code A more worth the while. At this point, Code A is producing a lot more excitement than Code S and is harder to win imo. Code S does have the skilled players from the start and the move ups, but Code A requires a qualifier where even a player like DongRaeGu hasn't gotten through, even though in one gstl match, he crushed 3 Code S players including MC and Nada. Then on top of that you have a ro64 tourney to go through against all the other beasts who made it out of the qualifiers. Nothing is worth it in Code A, for foreigners or Koreans. So it is either make Code A more rewarding or direct invites to Code S like Xeris said else it's much too difficult for foreigners to ever justify going to Korea. These are their careers.
On May 20 2011 19:24 tiaz wrote: I can understand the OP's standpoint regarding notifications, it needs to be reasonably early so teams can prepare accordingly. What I don't understand is the other things..
The point with Code S is that its supposed to be hard to get into. Why the fuck would anyone want free Code S passes handed out on a regular free basis??? It SHOULD be hard to get into Code S, and honestly: I don't understand the logic that its to hard to go through Code A but at the same token it would be better that winners of western tournaments gets into Code S.. So Code A is too hard to win so lets give other tournaments (and with that logic they have to be easier to win, right?) winners Code S-passes. I don't know about you but I'd be seriously pissed off if i was one of the many many many koreans in Code A that doesn't get an invitation to MLG or whatever.
It would be like giving a gold medal to the guy who finishes third place.
They could always fly out and try to work through the open bracket, they don't need to be invited to play MLG. If winning MLG and getting that code S spot is so easy I'm sure they would.
On May 20 2011 19:26 Liquid`HuK wrote: gom already got ton of backlash for inviting foreigners to code a i think a direct invite to code s would be a great insult to korean players, especially since most players would do horribly in code s.
most players would indeed. thats why only the winner of future mlgs will get a spot. and with such a competition at the mlg someone who wins there should do quite well in gsl code s. besides the korean invites i think players like naniwa, select, kiwikaki and idra have the best shot at winning the mlg and those players are definitely code s material.
the korean players will have to adapt. the overwhelming majority of the viewers and fans wants to see koreans compete against foreigners and the gsl (GLOBAL starcraft league) wants to deliver as good as possible.
So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
i totally agree with this. eventhough koreans would most likely qualify for foreign events if they had to play qualifiers, i dont think it is fair to the ''foreign'' players in tournaments outside korea.
Well with the new MLG and GOM partnership I hope that it gets easier to play in the GSL while playing in other major lan tournaments. Especially with the new scheduele. The new scheduele is made so Code S players only play on Tuesday and Wednesday. This would make is possible to travel for an MLG event and still have some rest time before and after so you can deal with the traveling.
Also as I understood it's now harder to get knocked out from Code S as you play more matches in the groupstages so it's not as random as it once was.
On May 20 2011 19:26 Liquid`HuK wrote: gom already got ton of backlash for inviting foreigners to code a i think a direct invite to code s would be a great insult to korean players, especially since most players would do horribly in code s.
most players would indeed. thats why only the winner of future mlgs will get a spot. and with such a competition at the mlg someone who wins there should do quite well in gsl code s. besides the korean invites i think players like naniwa, select, kiwikaki and idra have the best shot at winning the mlg and those players are definitely code s material.
the korean players will have to adapt. the overwhelming majority of the viewers and fans wants to see koreans compete against foreigners and the gsl (GLOBAL starcraft league) wants to deliver as good as possible.
Idra won't go for instance! He gave up his spot in code S!
Select was in SK and also went away and kiwikawi also went to a GSL qualifier, lost and came back.
So in those four players only naniwa would probably be insterested in going!
i look at it this way. there's more chances to qualify for code s. this will let teams send players to mlg to compete if they think they got a good chance to qualify.
then which means more koreans in foreign tournaments.
On May 20 2011 19:26 Liquid`HuK wrote: gom already got ton of backlash for inviting foreigners to code a i think a direct invite to code s would be a great insult to korean players, especially since most players would do horribly in code s.
most players would indeed. thats why only the winner of future mlgs will get a spot. and with such a competition at the mlg someone who wins there should do quite well in gsl code s. besides the korean invites i think players like naniwa, select, kiwikaki and idra have the best shot at winning the mlg and those players are definitely code s material.
the korean players will have to adapt. the overwhelming majority of the viewers and fans wants to see koreans compete against foreigners and the gsl (GLOBAL starcraft league) wants to deliver as good as possible.
Idra won't go for instance! He gave up his spot in code S!
Select was in SK and also went away and kiwikawi also went to a GSL qualifier, lost and came back.
So in those four players only naniwa would probably be insterested in going!
Just because they have been there before doesn't mean they won't go again. Even Idra have not ruled out the possibility of going back to Korea some time.
On May 20 2011 19:26 Liquid`HuK wrote: gom already got ton of backlash for inviting foreigners to code a i think a direct invite to code s would be a great insult to korean players, especially since most players would do horribly in code s.
most players would indeed. thats why only the winner of future mlgs will get a spot. and with such a competition at the mlg someone who wins there should do quite well in gsl code s. besides the korean invites i think players like naniwa, select, kiwikaki and idra have the best shot at winning the mlg and those players are definitely code s material.
the korean players will have to adapt. the overwhelming majority of the viewers and fans wants to see koreans compete against foreigners and the gsl (GLOBAL starcraft league) wants to deliver as good as possible.
Idra won't go for instance! He gave up his spot in code S!
Select was in SK and also went away and kiwikawi also went to a GSL qualifier, lost and came back.
So in those four players only naniwa would probably be insterested in going!
well besides idra i could see the others at least try code s. like yourself mentioning they came back after they lost in the qualifiers. code s is no qualifier, its the big deal. you get about 1k $ (dont know the exact amount) just for losing in first round there and every further round gets better of course. and its not like they will have to stay the whole month there. if they lose in the first round they just can fly back and participate in their normal tournaments.
I don't see idra going back unless the western scene dies, there's so much money and tournaments, marketing and events that he can use to make more money. This is the first year os SC2, korea will always get bigger but we don't know if esports is finally gonna explode, It seems so but we never know.
The only chance we will have of actually having constantly foreigners competing and winning in GSL is if some team picks 5 to 10 players and creates a teamhouse and that won't happen in the near future.
SK did that with WC3 for some time and other did before with BW.
Can't believe they didn't drop code A for starting another league. Oh well another season of disappointing finals. Need 2 leagues in Korea. Just my 2 cents.
On May 20 2011 16:20 Mikilatov wrote: Xeris, you hit the nail so directly on the head that it defied physics and it shot through the world. I think direct code S seeds are really the only way to make it appealing enough to be worthwhile.
You've gotta give Gom a lot of credit for all this foreign involvement though, they really are trying. The truth of the matter is, I don't think it's very economical for any party to send a player to Korea, really.
Agree with you there, this is ideally the role of a sponsor.
Is GOM paying to send the 4 Koreans to MLG?
Maybe MLG sponsors should foot the bill when it comes to sending foreigners over.
On May 20 2011 16:20 Mikilatov wrote: Xeris, you hit the nail so directly on the head that it defied physics and it shot through the world. I think direct code S seeds are really the only way to make it appealing enough to be worthwhile.
You've gotta give Gom a lot of credit for all this foreign involvement though, they really are trying. The truth of the matter is, I don't think it's very economical for any party to send a player to Korea, really.
Agree with you there, this is ideally the role of a sponsor.
Is GOM paying to send the 4 Koreans to MLG?
Maybe MLG sponsors should foot the bill when it comes to sending foreigners over.
MLG is paying for the koreans to come to US, GOM is paying for the foreigners to go to Korea
Nice write-up! Personally i don't see why any "foreigner" would want to go to GSL... The price money is horrible compared to being able to participate in all the EU/NA tournaments.
On May 20 2011 19:03 Parcelleus wrote: The problem isnt Korea, its everywhere else.
This much is true, Korea can provide the venue but if a team does not possess the funds to send their players over then maybe Korea is not for them just yet. Partnerships with korean teams could be a possibility, but then you would need talented people with great networking and managing skills to pull it off. Team Liquid could do it so why can't EG/Dignitas/mouz etc?
I see literally no barriers to this, it only takes the right people to make it happen.
[edit]
I share in the opinion however that there needs to be multiple tournaments running monthly in Korea to make it even more interesting for both international and national players. But this might be harder to pull off unless Starcraft 2 really starts captivating people the way BW does.
And GOM has done so much for Starcraft 2 already it's ridiculous, they can't provide for foreign players any more than they have already done and (have to say it again) they have done SO MUCH for foreigners. If GOM was personified into human flesh I would consider spending the rest of my life with it.
GOM has the exclusive rights for sc2 in Korea. So a tournament situated there is either held by GOM or not held at all.
On May 20 2011 19:03 Parcelleus wrote: The problem isnt Korea, its everywhere else.
This much is true, Korea can provide the venue but if a team does not possess the funds to send their players over then maybe Korea is not for them just yet. Partnerships with korean teams could be a possibility, but then you would need talented people with great networking and managing skills to pull it off. Team Liquid could do it so why can't EG/Dignitas/mouz etc?
I see literally no barriers to this, it only takes the right people to make it happen.
[edit]
I share in the opinion however that there needs to be multiple tournaments running monthly in Korea to make it even more interesting for both international and national players. But this might be harder to pull off unless Starcraft 2 really starts captivating people the way BW does.
And GOM has done so much for Starcraft 2 already it's ridiculous, they can't provide for foreign players any more than they have already done and (have to say it again) they have done SO MUCH for foreigners. If GOM was personified into human flesh I would consider spending the rest of my life with it.
GOM has the exclusive rights for sc2 in Korea. So a tournament situated there is either held by GOM or not held at all.
Other tournaments can be run with Gom's permission,
What exactly does Korea stand to gain from paying for foreigners to come over and play in GSL? The competition in GSL is huge, why should they give free passes to random western people who probably will get knocked out before RO16 when they have people like DGR, Ganzi, or Gumiho not even making qualifiers to Code A?
It's pretty obvious that despite SC2's success in the west, Koreans ARE a notch above in terms of performance, you'd be pretty daft to deny that - even beasts like Idra or Jinro aren't good enough to be a real star there, despite being in Korea for prolonged amounts of time. What makes you think some guy with barely any live tournament exposure would suddenly make a splash there?
It just makes no sense to start giving foreigners special treatment considering how hard their local talent fights for a spot in Code A, nevermind Code S. It'd be a slap in the face to guys like MMA, having foreigners get drafted straight into Code S en masse while getting travel and lodging expenses paid for as well, like Xeris suggests. It's not fair, and it has no benefit for GOM at all either, the only parties that MAY gain anything out of these suggestions are the western teams - and even there it's dubious, as most westerns would prob get knocked out right away anyway, and it's not like western sponsors care THAT much about being on Korean TV?
On May 18 2011 05:09 blackone wrote: Oh my god, please, no. I'd really like the GSL to become more "Global", but not at the price of quality. A big part of the awesomeness of GSL is due to the factor that it is not online (yea blabla no LAN mode, you know what I mean), and I don't want people to be seeded into Code S because if you're not able to qualify for it, you don't belong there.
THIS! You took the words out of my mouth.
Also. Making American players get more seeds into code S from an event like MLG is extremely unfair and would not even balance over a long period of time. We all want to see more foreign players in the GSL, because it is the best tournament there is. However, we should not do this at any cost. I don't think people fully realize how much koreans dedicate to be able to make it into Code A/S. If more seeds are given from other tours, the qualifiers will be even harder! Also, MLG is an event, GSL is a league - hence it does not really make sense to draft winners from MLG to GSL and vice versa.
But I do think that you miss a point that I think GOM should think about: GSTL. Now when GSTL is going to be more like a sc2-proleague, then if there were a foreign team, or more mixed in foreign players, I believe that the foreign community would take even more interest in GSL.
I dont really know if there is any team that could move to Korea just for GSTL. But if there was a online foreign GSTL qualifyer that granted the winner a GSTL spot and the GOM-house for a month, then maybe that could be something?
Dunno, maybe not, but a foreign team would be good for both fans and foreign players trying to live in Korea.
I think OP misunderstood the term 'global' in GSL. Everyone knows it's just mainly for marketing purpose, it doesnt mean GOM will try to get 65248 nations to compete for the titles. Obviously their #1 customer is and should be Korean in order to compete with BW and make sc2 popular in Korea. who cares about the west anyway. Adding some foreigners will earn them some premium tickets and positive critic, thus justifying the league name a bit. But thats all,if I was GOM,I would not care much either,I would give chance to my dedicated and skilled gamers, not random foreigner who cant afford to get past second round. I would try to take fans from MBC/OGN, not to please a forum. GOM is so generous toward us, you guys should stop being greedy.
Western pro-gamers doesn't seem to be making much moniez anyways. Tell me who is the Richest earning SC2 player that is not from korea.. and who is the richest korean SC1 player... If all top tier players were well paid, then this problem wouldnt exist ey..
Korea needs a real team league and an MSL equivalent to GSL. Code A doesn't count since it doesn't pay shit, it's just a stepping stone to GSL
There's a significant opportunity cost to going to Korea that didn't exist in BW, outside of the lifestyle changes and the physical barrier of getting to Korea, you weren't sacrificing anything else. In SC2 you sacrifice all of the foreign tournaments for the shot at a single tournament that is harder for any foreigner to win. It doesn't make sense for 95% of foreigners to go to Korea right now, but it could change if there was more opportunity, but SC2 would have to be bigger in Korea for that to come around.
I can understand Xeris's problems when it comes to sending players to Korea and despite the discussions here, GOM really do want foreigners to come play in their tournaments. However the solutions that he listed is nothing but a quick fix for a problem that needs a long-time solution.
Online qualification and Qualifying people directly into Code S are really good ideas but recently GOM made a huge revamp to their tournament system and to be frank inviting people directly into Code S is like trampling on those who work their butts off in Code B and Code A.
Personally I believe that to make the GSL, MLG and all the big tournaments out there to truly become "Global" the team needs to look further ahead and carefully look at the growth of e-sports. If big teams like Fnatic, TeamLiquid, Dignitas, FXO, Mousesports, EvilGeniuses looked into branching out and making a Korean team a lot of the issues Xeris listed will actually go away.
Of course it will require a lot of work, planning and funding but looking at how SC2 has grown so far, there are plenty of possibilities out there. There are still plenty of talented Korean players aspiring to become pro-gamers and considering how "full" all of the pro-houses are there must be plenty of players looking for a team they could join (Especially coming August/July when the SC1 contracts run out).
Having a 'Home away from home' would solve a lot of the problems that the foreigners have when trying to accommodate into the environment and it would also benefit Koreans if they wish to play outside of Korea to have an established team internationally. The IM Coach stated in an interview with Artosis that they're actually looking to integrate foreign players into their team, so the idea that Korean players can't practice and play with foreigners isn't ridiculous at all.
But it is not only the "Foreign-teams" that needs this form of "branching out". The Korean teams may very well look into making a international team themselves, many Koreans wants to play in foreign tournaments however they are rarely invited to such events. If Korean teams can get some presence out in the foreign scene, it would increase their chances of getting invited.
What I am writing may be delusional or just a far fetched dream but if you think carefully about it, it may be one of possible futures in e-sports. I would be thrilled to see a team in GSL mixed with foreigners and Koreans playing at the top stage of the world and I would also be equally thrilled to see Koreans and Foreigners participate in local and bigger events internationally as well.
The caller on Lo3 had it right, send the top players to the Up and Down matches, not Code A. So first place winner gets Code S, the 3 runner ups gets into Up and Down matches. Up and Down matches are a one day thing, if you loose you go to Code A and can choose if you wanna stay for that or not. If you win you go to Code S and will probably stay.
On May 20 2011 22:08 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote: What exactly does Korea stand to gain from paying for foreigners to come over and play in GSL? The competition in GSL is huge, why should they give free passes to random western people who probably will get knocked out before RO16 when they have people like DGR, Ganzi, or Gumiho not even making qualifiers to Code A?
It's pretty obvious that despite SC2's success in the west, Koreans ARE a notch above in terms of performance, you'd be pretty daft to deny that - even beasts like Idra or Jinro aren't good enough to be a real star there, despite being in Korea for prolonged amounts of time. What makes you think some guy with barely any live tournament exposure would suddenly make a splash there?
It just makes no sense to start giving foreigners special treatment considering how hard their local talent fights for a spot in Code A, nevermind Code S. It'd be a slap in the face to guys like MMA, having foreigners get drafted straight into Code S en masse while getting travel and lodging expenses paid for as well, like Xeris suggests. It's not fair, and it has no benefit for GOM at all either, the only parties that MAY gain anything out of these suggestions are the western teams - and even there it's dubious, as most westerns would prob get knocked out right away anyway, and it's not like western sponsors care THAT much about being on Korean TV?
Because they realized foreigners can at least compete (Dimaga beating Nestea, Jinro, Huk, Idra making it to Code S). Not sure if you realize this but... check the VOD views between korean vs korean and foreigner vs korean. You will see quite the discrepancy. The truth is, when a foreigner plays, we all tune in because we want to support him. They want that kind of relationship in their league... countries getting behind their player and what not. It expands their viewers and demographic.
So what its okay for koreans to pay for a expensive as fuck plane ticket to play in NA, and EU, but not for "Foreigners".
Foreigner progamers are entitled as fuck. How many fucking chances does a normal person have to visit a country like korea, and these fucks are being invited.
Foreigners have no right anymore to whine about being second class to the korean players.
On May 21 2011 00:06 ilmman wrote: Western pro-gamers doesn't seem to be making much moniez anyways. Tell me who is the Richest earning SC2 player that is not from korea.. and who is the richest korean SC1 player... If all top tier players were well paid, then this problem wouldnt exist ey..
You kidding me right? Have you any idea how much sponsors pay the best players in EU.
Take White-ra for example he got a solo sponsorship from Duckload.
There is shitloads of money in the western scene atm and thats wihtout price winnings
On May 20 2011 19:03 Parcelleus wrote: The problem isnt Korea, its everywhere else.
This much is true, Korea can provide the venue but if a team does not possess the funds to send their players over then maybe Korea is not for them just yet. Partnerships with korean teams could be a possibility, but then you would need talented people with great networking and managing skills to pull it off. Team Liquid could do it so why can't EG/Dignitas/mouz etc?
I see literally no barriers to this, it only takes the right people to make it happen.
[edit]
I share in the opinion however that there needs to be multiple tournaments running monthly in Korea to make it even more interesting for both international and national players. But this might be harder to pull off unless Starcraft 2 really starts captivating people the way BW does.
And GOM has done so much for Starcraft 2 already it's ridiculous, they can't provide for foreign players any more than they have already done and (have to say it again) they have done SO MUCH for foreigners. If GOM was personified into human flesh I would consider spending the rest of my life with it.
GOM has the exclusive rights for sc2 in Korea. So a tournament situated there is either held by GOM or not held at all.
Other tournaments can be run with Gom's permission,
Yes, but you'll probably have to pay them. Otherwise, I can't understant why they would have that clause in their contract with blizzard, which probably cost them quite a lot of money.
At least I don't think that they won't silently stand another big league that might challenge their status as the premier tournament for sc2 in Korea.
A small weekly cup during a time when there is no GSL, of course. But a League the size that it becomes relevant for the local esport scene... not likely.
On May 20 2011 19:03 Parcelleus wrote: The problem isnt Korea, its everywhere else.
This much is true, Korea can provide the venue but if a team does not possess the funds to send their players over then maybe Korea is not for them just yet. Partnerships with korean teams could be a possibility, but then you would need talented people with great networking and managing skills to pull it off. Team Liquid could do it so why can't EG/Dignitas/mouz etc?
I see literally no barriers to this, it only takes the right people to make it happen.
[edit]
I share in the opinion however that there needs to be multiple tournaments running monthly in Korea to make it even more interesting for both international and national players. But this might be harder to pull off unless Starcraft 2 really starts captivating people the way BW does.
And GOM has done so much for Starcraft 2 already it's ridiculous, they can't provide for foreign players any more than they have already done and (have to say it again) they have done SO MUCH for foreigners. If GOM was personified into human flesh I would consider spending the rest of my life with it.
GOM has the exclusive rights for sc2 in Korea. So a tournament situated there is either held by GOM or not held at all.
Other tournaments can be run with Gom's permission,
Yes, but you'll probably have to pay them. Otherwise, I can't understant why they would have that clause in their contract with blizzard, which probably cost them quite a lot of money.
At least I don't think that they won't silently stand another big league that might challenge their status as the premier tournament for sc2 in Korea.
A small weekly cup during a time when there is no GSL, of course. But a League the size that it becomes relevant for the local esport scene... not likely.
GSL runs a tournament nearly constantly. MLG and IPL or NASL aren't really directly competing with one another (too much). And they usually take a break for MLG which only runs for 3 days. Another SC2 league in Korea would directly step on GOM's toes even if they paid for a license.
I'm on board with the point of this post but I don't think it goes far enough.
GSL is a big tournament with a large recurring prize pool so I'm not trying to say it isn't an awesome event. I just think we need to stop thinking of it as BETTER than NA/EU events.
1) Korea is the #1 place for SC1 but tournament results show Sweden (Europe in general) is obv the #1 place for SC2. I think the GSL is profiting too much from the reputation that Korean gamers earned in SC1. I think that with the new game Korea should have to re-earn its spot at the top and so far I don't think it's doing so. By rolling over and saying "you aren't good until you're in the GSL" we are stealing credit from the foreign players winning in what may very well be equally (or perhaps more?) challenging tournaments.
2) Nobody is refuting that it is easier to make money playing outside of Korea. You may not see a single check as big as the GSL championship prize, but a Code S caliber player that plays regularly will make more than an average GSL participant. Xeris' Haypro example is spot on. The GSL needs to make itself more attractive when compared to foreign tournaments if they want the privilege of our best players participating. The other side of this coin is the fact that capable Korean players can and ARE travelling outside Korea because they recognize the value of foreign tournaments. What if some of them move?
3) Seriously, who has proven that Koreans as a group are the best in the world? I know about Ace, Squirtle, MC and others tearing it up in foreign tournaments, and I am willing to admit that some of the best players in the world are Korean- but that doesn’t mean being Korean makes you better than foreigners. I know, wahhh wahhh wahh lag in the TSL so I won't make my point on those results alone, but seriously I think there are plenty of Code S players that could not win at MLG. I guess we will see in Columbus
I look at GSL like I look at the New York Times- no matter how good the content is they can't help the fact that the industry is moving a different direction.The only thing that is going to save them is a mass migration of SC1 players when their Kespa contracts end, otherwise a year from now I see the strongest Korean players prioritizing international play above GSL
I've read Xeris's post a handful of times, but I'm not convinced there is some fundamental, all-encompassing "Korean" problem. It just looks like some statements of the obvious difficulties associated with international travel and accommodations in ANY endeavor.
I'm also not sure how the MLG-GSL Exchange Program is therefore "doomed to fail." The argument there is simply "People don't like traveling," which I'm just not sure is remotely true. Many people would be interested in spending a month in Korea for the sake of the experience.
With anything you can be involved in, it's always important to distinguish between "micro-problems" and fundamental problems. These are all micro-problems, like asking GOM to notify you of tournament invitations early enough.
On May 20 2011 22:08 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote: What exactly does Korea stand to gain from paying for foreigners to come over and play in GSL? The competition in GSL is huge, why should they give free passes to random western people who probably will get knocked out before RO16 when they have people like DGR, Ganzi, or Gumiho not even making qualifiers to Code A?
It's pretty obvious that despite SC2's success in the west, Koreans ARE a notch above in terms of performance, you'd be pretty daft to deny that - even beasts like Idra or Jinro aren't good enough to be a real star there, despite being in Korea for prolonged amounts of time. What makes you think some guy with barely any live tournament exposure would suddenly make a splash there?
It just makes no sense to start giving foreigners special treatment considering how hard their local talent fights for a spot in Code A, nevermind Code S. It'd be a slap in the face to guys like MMA, having foreigners get drafted straight into Code S en masse while getting travel and lodging expenses paid for as well, like Xeris suggests. It's not fair, and it has no benefit for GOM at all either, the only parties that MAY gain anything out of these suggestions are the western teams - and even there it's dubious, as most westerns would prob get knocked out right away anyway, and it's not like western sponsors care THAT much about being on Korean TV?
Because they realized foreigners can at least compete (Dimaga beating Nestea, Jinro, Huk, Idra making it to Code S). Not sure if you realize this but... check the VOD views between korean vs korean and foreigner vs korean. You will see quite the discrepancy. The truth is, when a foreigner plays, we all tune in because we want to support him. They want that kind of relationship in their league... countries getting behind their player and what not. It expands their viewers and demographic.
It makes perfect sense.
I think you missed my point. :p
Foreigners can compete, on the average-ish Korean level, I'm not denying that. There isn't a single foreign player who could be outstanding, though. Hoping for a foreigner to get to as much as semi-finals of Code S is a stretch, nevermind winning the whole thing. They're decent, but so are dozens of Korean pros who keep getting unlucky during qualifiers. How would DRG feel if Dimaga got a free pass to Code S when he keeps getting knocked out in Code B? How would MMA or MVP feel if you give ThorZain a free invite to Code S just because he won a foreign tourney?
And while what you say about FOREIGN viewers is 'sort of' true - sort of because there's hardly huge spikes even in foreign viewer numbers during events with foreigners in them, it's the fact that this is special events we're talking about, that genuinely draw a bigger audience - you have to remember that GOM doesn't even care that much about foreign viewers - sure it's a nice bonus, but their biggest market, their sponsors etc are in Korea. If you think a few extra thousands americans on their stream make a big difference for a company that's broadcasted on TV during prime hours, I think you're a little off :l
On May 20 2011 22:08 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote: What exactly does Korea stand to gain from paying for foreigners to come over and play in GSL? The competition in GSL is huge, why should they give free passes to random western people who probably will get knocked out before RO16 when they have people like DGR, Ganzi, or Gumiho not even making qualifiers to Code A?
It's pretty obvious that despite SC2's success in the west, Koreans ARE a notch above in terms of performance, you'd be pretty daft to deny that - even beasts like Idra or Jinro aren't good enough to be a real star there, despite being in Korea for prolonged amounts of time. What makes you think some guy with barely any live tournament exposure would suddenly make a splash there?
It just makes no sense to start giving foreigners special treatment considering how hard their local talent fights for a spot in Code A, nevermind Code S. It'd be a slap in the face to guys like MMA, having foreigners get drafted straight into Code S en masse while getting travel and lodging expenses paid for as well, like Xeris suggests. It's not fair, and it has no benefit for GOM at all either, the only parties that MAY gain anything out of these suggestions are the western teams - and even there it's dubious, as most westerns would prob get knocked out right away anyway, and it's not like western sponsors care THAT much about being on Korean TV?
Because they realized foreigners can at least compete (Dimaga beating Nestea, Jinro, Huk, Idra making it to Code S). Not sure if you realize this but... check the VOD views between korean vs korean and foreigner vs korean. You will see quite the discrepancy. The truth is, when a foreigner plays, we all tune in because we want to support him. They want that kind of relationship in their league... countries getting behind their player and what not. It expands their viewers and demographic.
It makes perfect sense.
I think you missed my point. :p
Foreigners can compete, on the average-ish Korean level, I'm not denying that. There isn't a single foreign player who could be outstanding, though. Hoping for a foreigner to get to as much as semi-finals of Code S is a stretch, nevermind winning the whole thing. They're decent, but so are dozens of Korean pros who keep getting unlucky during qualifiers. How would DRG feel if Dimaga got a free pass to Code S when he keeps getting knocked out in Code B? How would MMA or MVP feel if you give ThorZain a free invite to Code S just because he won a foreign tourney?
And while what you say about FOREIGN viewers is 'sort of' true - sort of because there's hardly huge spikes even in foreign viewer numbers during events with foreigners in them, it's the fact that this is special events we're talking about, that genuinely draw a bigger audience - you have to remember that GOM doesn't even care that much about foreign viewers - sure it's a nice bonus, but their biggest market, their sponsors etc are in Korea. If you think a few extra thousands americans on their stream make a big difference for a company that's broadcasted on TV during prime hours, I think you're a little off :l
You put up 3 assumptions. 1. Foreigners are worse than Koreans, (Jinro got top 4, Idra stayed in code S every season(with the ladder map pool). Hell MC lost to Thorzain in a BO5 in straight up games.) Jinro wasn't even a top player before Korea. If they don't want S-class foreigners in code S then they can keep on doing what they are doing. 2. Sponsors such as Intel and Coca Cola are American based companies, LG while Korean sell merchandise abroad. I am not sure why they do not want foreigners in GSL to strengthen their brand. 3. The players aren't really getting 1 way deals, Koreans are invited into TSL, injected into MLG etc.
Also SC2 is not as big as you think in Korea, they air on some obscure cable channel and it is not even close to as popular as BW.
To the OP: I don't know why you labeled it the way you did, but players in Korea wants to come over here to play, but MLG only accepts a certain amount of Korean players. This is different from the GSL, where they let any play as long as they qualify.
Living inside of a house of unknown people and in a different culture isn't hard to adapt to with the fact that you are going to spend most of your time practicing. The food might be different, but most people in Korea understand English.(this is the bad part for some Europeans that doesn't know English)
There will be jet lag if you decide to play in a different country's tournament or GSL, but if you have a commitment to shoot for code A or especially code S you will be spending most of your time there anyway, so after a few days the jet lag will be gone.
Practice partners aren't as hard to find, most of the Korean teams practice with other teams to prepare for events, it is not limited to practicing within their own house. The only problem that could occur with this is if the foreigners don't know how to find other people from another house to practice with, or they don't want to practice with them.
The two solutions you posted, I agree with the second one, but the first one isn't a good idea. Online tournaments can give way to people cheating with third party programs or spectators unless it was done at a certain location in a foreign country.
Your argument seems to be a little one sided and directed at the Koreans, the players from countries outside of Korea aren't forced to stay there (besides the duration of the GSL), so they can leave when ever. When you mentioned revenge on the Koreans for making foreigners play at 3-4 in the morning, they practically do every time they come over to play in foreign tournaments.
When people are required to stay in Korea for the duration of the GSL, it can also be a benefit, so that they don't have to deal with jet lag coming back for every game. This way they really can't complain about jet lag. Just like everything, this is a commitment.
Before Gretech got exclusive rights for SC2, OGN was planning an "OS2L" with online global qualifiers for 16 spots in a live Korean tournament. For tournaments that require lengthy participation, I think online is always the better idea unless it's got a huge prize pool like Code S.
Anyway there's no reason that GSL has to remain a "global" starleague. One other solution is to have mainly local tournaments with a yearly or twice-a-year "champion's league" that invited major tournament winners to a weekend LAN.
the problem is koreans dont really want foreigners in their leauges. they only did this after pressure from blizzard. like all nations in asia, korea is highly nationalistic bordering on nazi, thats the problem.
the solution is to bring the most popular leagues out of korea and asia, and put them in sweden. -__-
On May 21 2011 05:20 zzuper wrote: the problem is koreans dont really want foreigners in their leauges. they only did this after pressure from blizzard. like all nations in asia, korea is highly nationalistic bordering on nazi, thats the problem.
the solution is to bring the most popular leagues out of korea and asia, and put them in sweden. -__-
On May 21 2011 05:20 zzuper wrote: the problem is koreans dont really want foreigners in their leauges. they only did this after pressure from blizzard. like all nations in asia, korea is highly nationalistic bordering on nazi, thats the problem.
the solution is to bring the most popular leagues out of korea and asia, and put them in sweden. -__-
Care to provide some sources for this? Because I've seen a lot of Korean Netizen setimet about how they would like the GSL to actually be more global, and not the KSL in practice.
On May 21 2011 05:20 zzuper wrote: the problem is koreans dont really want foreigners in their leauges. they only did this after pressure from blizzard. like all nations in asia, korea is highly nationalistic bordering on nazi, thats the problem.
the solution is to bring the most popular leagues out of korea and asia, and put them in sweden. -__-
*looks at nation of poster*
Yeah... hey, did you know that quite a few of the korean progamers were quite active with the foreign community during Broodwar? Jaedong did interviews for foreigners, Sea did a TL attack, etc?
On May 20 2011 22:08 Zombie_Velociraptor wrote: What exactly does Korea stand to gain from paying for foreigners to come over and play in GSL? The competition in GSL is huge, why should they give free passes to random western people who probably will get knocked out before RO16 when they have people like DGR, Ganzi, or Gumiho not even making qualifiers to Code A?
It's pretty obvious that despite SC2's success in the west, Koreans ARE a notch above in terms of performance, you'd be pretty daft to deny that - even beasts like Idra or Jinro aren't good enough to be a real star there, despite being in Korea for prolonged amounts of time. What makes you think some guy with barely any live tournament exposure would suddenly make a splash there?
It just makes no sense to start giving foreigners special treatment considering how hard their local talent fights for a spot in Code A, nevermind Code S. It'd be a slap in the face to guys like MMA, having foreigners get drafted straight into Code S en masse while getting travel and lodging expenses paid for as well, like Xeris suggests. It's not fair, and it has no benefit for GOM at all either, the only parties that MAY gain anything out of these suggestions are the western teams - and even there it's dubious, as most westerns would prob get knocked out right away anyway, and it's not like western sponsors care THAT much about being on Korean TV?
Because they realized foreigners can at least compete (Dimaga beating Nestea, Jinro, Huk, Idra making it to Code S). Not sure if you realize this but... check the VOD views between korean vs korean and foreigner vs korean. You will see quite the discrepancy. The truth is, when a foreigner plays, we all tune in because we want to support him. They want that kind of relationship in their league... countries getting behind their player and what not. It expands their viewers and demographic.
Foreigners can compete, on the average-ish Korean level, I'm not denying that. There isn't a single foreign player who could be outstanding, though. Hoping for a foreigner to get to as much as semi-finals of Code S is a stretch, nevermind winning the whole thing. They're decent, but so are dozens of Korean pros who keep getting unlucky during qualifiers. How would DRG feel if Dimaga got a free pass to Code S when he keeps getting knocked out in Code B? How would MMA or MVP feel if you give ThorZain a free invite to Code S just because he won a foreign tourney?
And while what you say about FOREIGN viewers is 'sort of' true - sort of because there's hardly huge spikes even in foreign viewer numbers during events with foreigners in them, it's the fact that this is special events we're talking about, that genuinely draw a bigger audience - you have to remember that GOM doesn't even care that much about foreign viewers - sure it's a nice bonus, but their biggest market, their sponsors etc are in Korea. If you think a few extra thousands americans on their stream make a big difference for a company that's broadcasted on TV during prime hours, I think you're a little off :l
You put up 3 assumptions. 1. Foreigners are worse than Koreans, (Jinro got top 4, Idra stayed in code S every season(with the ladder map pool). Hell MC lost to Thorzain in a BO5 in straight up games.) Jinro wasn't even a top player before Korea. If they don't want S-class foreigners in code S then they can keep on doing what they are doing. 2. Sponsors such as Intel and Coca Cola are American based companies, LG while Korean sell merchandise abroad. I am not sure why they do not want foreigners in GSL to strengthen their brand. 3. The players aren't really getting 1 way deals, Koreans are invited into TSL, injected into MLG etc.
Also SC2 is not as big as you think in Korea, they air on some obscure cable channel and it is not even close to as popular as BW.
Let me put it another way. Foreigners aren't 'worse' than Koreans per se, but not even the absolute cream of the crop foreign players are BETTER than what Korean teams have to offer. You're right about Korean players not doing too brilliantly in TSL - but are you seriously going to claim that Naniwa is straight up better than MC or Thorzain is a match for players like MVP or MMA? Come on. The foreign players don't have anything unique or awesome to offer to GSL; sure, with a bit of luck, someone like Idra or Thorzain or whatever could probably even get a GSL trophy at some point - but they wouldn't be some kind of a legendary bonjwa or something, not unless they put in a LOT of effort into it. And now you're saying they should get a free pass to the most prestigious league in Korea? I mean, MVP doesn't get a free pass and he's a two time GSL champion - why should a random Swede or American be getting special treatment?
Fact is, if foreign teams are so interested in GSL, they should make an investment into it - and if not, there's plenty of other tournaments they can play in. I absolutely agree that stuff like Super Tournament or World Champions tournament is very exciting and could use more players from all over the world in it - but demanding GOM to cover the foreigner's expenses AND give them invites into Code S right away as well is downright ridiculous. If anything, it's offensive to Korean players, and I can't see that ever being a popular idea on the Korean progaming scene.
As for Koreans being invited into TSL or MLG - how is that even remotely similar? GSL is a multi-season league where qualification is basically half the victory, it takes a LOT of preparation to even have a shot of getting into Code S, whereas TSL or MLG qualifiers aren't nearly as demanding. The difference is, foreign tournaments NEED Koreans to have more 'star' matches, unlike GSL.
And again, bottomline, as a esports enthusiast, how can you say with a straight face that giving people a free pass into the most exclusive league is fair? How would MVP's fans feel if he lost in U/D matches while in the meantime KiWiKaKi or something got a free ride into Code S?
What everyone seems to overlook is that the new code A schedule is perfect for foreigners. Ro32 and ro16 happen in one day, ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224585 ) then ro8 next week. What this means is foreigners can land in korea on saturday or sunday, play on monday, then know the very same day if they are qualified for up and down or not. If they are qualified they can stay one more week, having to play NASL in Korea just once (and even better, NASL could exceptionally reschedule for foreigners winning their code A games). At least they don't miss anything, they have a paid trip to play 2 bo3, and can go back if it turns out badly. If they qualify for up and down, I'm sure sponsors will allow them to go back in US or Europe if an IEM, MLG or whatever conflict. Even if not, the new schedule is perfect for foreigners.
On May 21 2011 05:20 zzuper wrote: the problem is koreans dont really want foreigners in their leauges. they only did this after pressure from blizzard. like all nations in asia, korea is highly nationalistic bordering on nazi, thats the problem.
the solution is to bring the most popular leagues out of korea and asia, and put them in sweden. -__-
Making idiotic assumptions about other countries and calling them "nazi", sounds like you're even more of a bigot than those Koreans you look down upon.
On May 21 2011 00:06 ilmman wrote: Western pro-gamers doesn't seem to be making much moniez anyways. Tell me who is the Richest earning SC2 player that is not from korea.. and who is the richest korean SC1 player... If all top tier players were well paid, then this problem wouldnt exist ey..
You kidding me right? Have you any idea how much sponsors pay the best players in EU.
Take White-ra for example he got a solo sponsorship from Duckload.
There is shitloads of money in the western scene atm and thats wihtout price winnings
On May 21 2011 07:14 MrCon wrote: What everyone seems to overlook is that the new code A schedule is perfect for foreigners. Ro32 and ro16 happen in one day, ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224585 ) then ro8 next week. What this means is foreigners can land in korea on saturday or sunday, play on monday, then know the very same day if they are qualified for up and down or not. If they are qualified they can stay one more week, having to play NASL in Korea just once (and even better, NASL could exceptionally reschedule for foreigners winning their code A games). At least they don't miss anything, they have a paid trip to play 2 bo3, and can go back if it turns out badly. If they qualify for up and down, I'm sure sponsors will allow them to go back in US or Europe if an IEM, MLG or whatever conflict. Even if not, the new schedule is perfect for foreigners.
LOL ive been saying this since they announced the new format, everyone will ignore your post and go on pretending like korea is the worst idea for foreigners with their "westerner pride" banners on.
I think the whole "more weekend event" thing would do it. I would much rather see the Code S prestige retained as much as possible and instead just give foreigners more reasons to stay in Korea outside of Code S. Like have big weekend tournaments like MLG happen fairly often and have it conveniently timed right before the Code A qualifiers begin. This way any Code A seeds given out are more likely to be accepted and more foreigners will be around in Korea to try and qualify anyway. Obviously a pretty big rescheduling of all current GSL events would be necessary to make this happen any time soon.
Reading through the replies in threads of this nature gives me a headache...
Can't we just agree that regardless of location, one month qualifiers don't work? There's no team that can send its players anywhere on those prospects. A courage style tournament is a great idea - props to SotG for that one, would indeed be an excellent format with the top 6 advancing to up/down or whatever.
On May 21 2011 07:14 MrCon wrote: What everyone seems to overlook is that the new code A schedule is perfect for foreigners. Ro32 and ro16 happen in one day, ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224585 ) then ro8 next week. What this means is foreigners can land in korea on saturday or sunday, play on monday, then know the very same day if they are qualified for up and down or not. If they are qualified they can stay one more week, having to play NASL in Korea just once (and even better, NASL could exceptionally reschedule for foreigners winning their code A games). At least they don't miss anything, they have a paid trip to play 2 bo3, and can go back if it turns out badly. If they qualify for up and down, I'm sure sponsors will allow them to go back in US or Europe if an IEM, MLG or whatever conflict. Even if not, the new schedule is perfect for foreigners.
LOL ive been saying this since they announced the new format, everyone will ignore your post and go on pretending like korea is the worst idea for foreigners with their "westerner pride" banners on.
I see that in the replies (rather non replies) after our posts :/ It seems people WANT to make a problem of this, bringing up arguments that don't make sense when you look at the actual schedule.
even though the idea of having code A as an online-turnament with applications, i think it should still be open to everyone living in korea/showing up. feels like those korean progamers only in code A will have it way to hard otherwise
Although I can't pinpoint exactly what I want, I really would like to see that "Korea vs. the World" GSL that happened a few months ago. That was honestly amazing. I like the idea of foreigners vs koreans, and not necessarily in the same brackets, similar to how Code S is right now.
On May 21 2011 07:14 MrCon wrote: What everyone seems to overlook is that the new code A schedule is perfect for foreigners. Ro32 and ro16 happen in one day, ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=224585 ) then ro8 next week. What this means is foreigners can land in korea on saturday or sunday, play on monday, then know the very same day if they are qualified for up and down or not. If they are qualified they can stay one more week, having to play NASL in Korea just once (and even better, NASL could exceptionally reschedule for foreigners winning their code A games). At least they don't miss anything, they have a paid trip to play 2 bo3, and can go back if it turns out badly. If they qualify for up and down, I'm sure sponsors will allow them to go back in US or Europe if an IEM, MLG or whatever conflict. Even if not, the new schedule is perfect for foreigners.
LOL ive been saying this since they announced the new format, everyone will ignore your post and go on pretending like korea is the worst idea for foreigners with their "westerner pride" banners on.
I see that in the replies (rather non replies) after our posts :/ It seems people WANT to make a problem of this, bringing up arguments that don't make sense when you look at the actual schedule.
=( most of these problems have become a non issue after the schedule change, The OP's Post is pretty much irrelevant now. Yet look at all the people who have posted since the schedule change going "YES I TOTALLY AGREE" or even after our posts lol. Xeris's post was pretty uninformed as well he didnt know that there was a direct seed into code s for the MLG winner, the first announcement stated that after MLG columbus the first place for MLG gets a direct seed into code s. Most people think its some new announcement that came with the GSL format changes. Also Xeris is under the impression that it isnt an all expenses paid trip. WICH IT IS! He also seems to refuse to update his post even though i have seen a few people including myself correct him and ask for the update. Anything to prove a point i guess even if the information is incorrect.
Hey guys im going to say it one last time, THE round of 32 and round of 16 happen over the course of 1 day! If you get a seed into code a from MLG you can go there spend 1 day and see if you are going to make it to the up and down matches or not. If you dont maybe you spend a weekend or a week in korea and its not a big loss it was all expenses paid so its not like you lost out on anything. Otherwise you stay for the three weeks and get your shot at code S and worst case scenario you dont get into code s and you spent 3 weeks in korea on an all expenses paid trip. Sounds pretty sweet to me.
Incontrol said the 3 weeks he spent in korea was the best practice he has ever had and it was worth at least 3 months (he may have said 6) practice in north america. He didnt have a team to practice with just idra and probably a few others (kind of like the gom house hmmm). So regardless it sounds like an invaluable experience.
To bad the Code A money is not worth it's weight in shit...1400 bucks for a month long qualifier tourney is just terrible there are too many smaller tournaments that pay just as good if not better than 1400 dollars in a month. IMHO Code A prize pool needs to be at least 10-15k that would make it worth while to attend but until then it is kind of just a waste to even go and perform in it due to scheduling and pay out..great you can get into code S but it takes an entire month and you to be extremely lucky to show up in Korea and be able to secure training partners and acclimate your body to the new time zone( i bet it will take u a couple weeks to get full changed over) just brings to many disadvantages for a Foreigner to join the GSL even with a free spot in Code A. I would feel completely different if they were placed into Code S for the MLG or the prize pool in Code A was worth it.
On May 21 2011 14:00 Nazarid wrote: To bad the Code A money is not worth it's weight in shit...1400 bucks for a month long qualifier tourney is just terrible there are too many smaller tournaments that pay just as good if not better than 1400 dollars in a month. IMHO Code A prize pool needs to be at least 10-15k that would make it worth while to attend but until then it is kind of just a waste to even go and perform in it due to scheduling and pay out..great you can get into code S but it takes an entire month and you to be extremely lucky to show up in Korea and be able to secure training partners and acclimate your body to the new time zone( i bet it will take u a couple weeks to get full changed over) just brings to many disadvantages for a Foreigner to join the GSL even with a free spot in Code A. I would feel completely different if they were placed into Code S for the MLG or the prize pool in Code A was worth it.
dude do you only read what the OP has to say, because hes totally wrong. The winner of MLG DOES get a spot in Code S. Man its amazing how many people just trust what this one guy says and dont read the official announcments.
Also like i said in the post above yours code a round of 32 and round of 16 happen over the course of 1 week, obviously your not gonna just get to korea and immediately have to play you will have probably 5-6 days to adjust if you want them (this applies to people that placed in places 2-5 at MLG). Honestly 3 days is enough though. Either way 1 week for code a round of 32 and round of 16 means that if you dont make it through your only there for a week and a half MAX and its all expenses paid. Wow people really dont read posts unless they are directed exactly at them ive stated the same thing probably 10 times throughout this thread.
So i dont really see what the problem is here guys, what is wrong with an all expenses paid trip to korea, where you will know if your going to the up and down matches within 5 days after you get there and then you can leave if you didnt so youve commited maybe 3-7 days in korea all expenses paid so no loss to you, and you get a chance to see how you fare against the best players in the world. Then if you dont make it to the up and down matches (round of 8) you can leave and go back to western tournaments, if you do make it to the round of 8 yoou stay for an extra week and a half or so and try your luck to make it into Code s. Hey huk did it , so if your code S material i dont really see the problem. Worst case scenario you spent 2-3 weeks in korea all expenses paid and made 500-1400 bucks (depending on where you placed after the round of 8) didnt spend a dime and got alot of valuable experience in korea and a chance to visit a foreign and very interesting country
Could someone point out anything negative about that aside fromm the fact that if you make it to the round of 8 or further but lose in the up and down matches you MIGHT have missed out on 2-3 weeks of online tournaments (you will still beable to play your NASL games should it be on at the time but if your going to the up and down matches its defenetly worth dealing with the latency) I doubt you would make that much more than 500-1400 bucks(the amount you would make from making it from anywhere fromm the round of 8 to the finals) in smaller online tournaments anyways (and you could still participate in those if you really wanted too). Look at the top dog in the tournament round up when bigger tournamets arent taking place, usually they only make around 1000-2000.
I just dont see it guys, going to Korea seems like a huge opportunity especially with the format changes for code a, you dont need to spend nearly as much time there for no reason, you either make it to the up and down matches after 1 week of playing or you dont and you can go home with no loss in anyway to you because its all expenses paid.
Xeris just made it sound way worse then it actually was by leaving out details (obviously not on purpose) or suggesting stuff that they are already doing (winner of mlg makes it into code s after columbus) i cant beleive they put this post on spotlight to be honest, it paints GSL in an uneccesary negative light especially after all the changes made and the exchange program.
Its funny how a post wasnt made about this until AFTER MLG makes it way easier for foreigners to participate with the exchange, so it gets way easier to participate in GSL and people start complaining like nobody's bussiness instead of looking at it as a good thing, way to go guys.
Edit: Edited to reflect the fact that code a round of 32 and 16 happen over a week not a day, i derped it and listened to somebody else in this thread when you look at the schedule it looks like 1 day but its actually a week. Regardless 1 week(its actually only 4-5 days max but you will probably get there a few days early to adjust to the time) to know weather you made it to the up and down matches is not a big deal.
On May 21 2011 13:41 gulati wrote: Absolutely beautiful post. I couldn't agree more.
Although I can't pinpoint exactly what I want, I really would like to see that "Korea vs. the World" GSL that happened a few months ago. That was honestly amazing. I like the idea of foreigners vs koreans, and not necessarily in the same brackets, similar to how Code S is right now.
I actually dislike the idea of Korea vs. World. I think it promotes the "Us vs Korea" sentiment that is so prevalent on TL and I don't like coming on here and seeing 99%+ of the posters rooting for one team.
I personally would prefer a format where they still invite 8 foreigners and mix them up with the Korean representatives to form two teams. Each team would have 4 Koreans + 4 foreigners and it'd be a treat to see them work and celebrate together.
On May 21 2011 13:41 gulati wrote: Absolutely beautiful post. I couldn't agree more.
Although I can't pinpoint exactly what I want, I really would like to see that "Korea vs. the World" GSL that happened a few months ago. That was honestly amazing. I like the idea of foreigners vs koreans, and not necessarily in the same brackets, similar to how Code S is right now.
I actually dislike the idea of Korea vs. World. I think it promotes the "Us vs Korea" sentiment that is so prevalent on TL and I don't like coming on here and seeing 99%+ of the posters rooting for one team.
I personally would prefer a format where they still invite 8 foreigners and mix them up with the Korean representatives to form two teams. Each team would have 4 Koreans + 4 foreigners and it'd be a treat to see them work and celebrate together.
On May 21 2011 14:00 Nazarid wrote: To bad the Code A money is not worth it's weight in shit...1400 bucks for a month long qualifier tourney is just terrible there are too many smaller tournaments that pay just as good if not better than 1400 dollars in a month. IMHO Code A prize pool needs to be at least 10-15k that would make it worth while to attend but until then it is kind of just a waste to even go and perform in it due to scheduling and pay out..great you can get into code S but it takes an entire month and you to be extremely lucky to show up in Korea and be able to secure training partners and acclimate your body to the new time zone( i bet it will take u a couple weeks to get full changed over) just brings to many disadvantages for a Foreigner to join the GSL even with a free spot in Code A. I would feel completely different if they were placed into Code S for the MLG or the prize pool in Code A was worth it.
dude do you only read what the OP has to say, because hes totally wrong. The winner of MLG DOES get a spot in Code S. Man its amazing how many people just trust what this one guy says and dont read the official announcments.
Also like i said in the post above yours code a round of 32 and round of 16 happen over the course of 1 week, obviously your not gonna just get to korea and immediately have to play you will have probably 5-6 days to adjust if you want them (this applies to people that placed in places 2-5 at MLG). Honestly 3 days is enough though. Either way 1 week for code a round of 32 and round of 16 means that if you dont make it through your only there for a week and a half MAX and its all expenses paid. Wow people really dont read posts unless they are directed exactly at them ive stated the same thing probably 10 times throughout this thread.
So i dont really see what the problem is here guys, what is wrong with an all expenses paid trip to korea, where you will know if your going to the up and down matches within 5 days after you get there and then you can leave if you didnt so youve commited maybe 3-7 days in korea all expenses paid so no loss to you, and you get a chance to see how you fare against the best players in the world. Then if you dont make it to the up and down matches (round of 8) you can leave and go back to western tournaments, if you do make it to the round of 8 yoou stay for an extra week and a half or so and try your luck to make it into Code s. Hey huk did it , so if your code S material i dont really see the problem. Worst case scenario you spent 2-3 weeks in korea all expenses paid and made 500-1400 bucks (depending on where you placed after the round of 8) didnt spend a dime and got alot of valuable experience in korea and a chance to visit a foreign and very interesting country
Could someone point out anything negative about that aside fromm the fact that if you make it to the round of 8 or further but lose in the up and down matches you MIGHT have missed out on 2-3 weeks of online tournaments (you will still beable to play your NASL games should it be on at the time but if your going to the up and down matches its defenetly worth dealing with the latency) I doubt you would make that much more than 500-1400 bucks(the amount you would make from making it from anywhere fromm the round of 8 to the finals) in smaller online tournaments anyways (and you could still participate in those if you really wanted too). Look at the top dog in the tournament round up when bigger tournamets arent taking place, usually they only make around 1000-2000.
I just dont see it guys, going to Korea seems like a huge opportunity especially with the format changes for code a, you dont need to spend nearly as much time there for no reason, you either make it to the up and down matches after 1 week of playing or you dont and you can go home with no loss in anyway to you because its all expenses paid.
Xeris just made it sound way worse then it actually was by leaving out details (obviously not on purpose) or suggesting stuff that they are already doing (winner of mlg makes it into code s after columbus) i cant beleive they put this post on spotlight to be honest, it paints GSL in an uneccesary negative light especially after all the changes made and the exchange program.
Its funny how a post wasnt made about this until AFTER MLG makes it way easier for foreigners to participate with the exchange, so it gets way easier to participate in GSL and people start complaining like nobody's bussiness instead of looking at it as a good thing, way to go guys.
Edit: Edited to reflect the fact that code a round of 32 and 16 happen over a week not a day, i derped it and listened to somebody else in this thread when you look at the schedule it looks like 1 day but its actually a week. Regardless 1 week(its actually only 4-5 days max but you will probably get there a few days early to adjust to the time) to know weather you made it to the up and down matches is not a big deal.
Agree completely with what you have said here. One thing to note though is that this was posted before the new format changes for GSL and I also think that code A round 32 and 16 is played over the first 5 days of the new format ( at the early timeslot) not one day ( would be hard to braodcast 24 bo3 in a day.) This doesn't really affect your argument though as you will still know by the end of the first week whether or not you make it too up and downs.
Would be cool to see if Xeris is still reading the thread and would give his thoughts on the new gom format/schedule.
Request for a mod edit on the OP since its in the spotlight and leaving alot of people with bad information.
Some of that information is due to the fact that the format changes were announced after this post was made.
First the fact that the winner of MLG gets a spot in code S , xeris suggests this as a solution in his OP when in fact it has been known for over a week that this is already happening.
Second the fact that code a round of 32 and round of 16 happen over the course of a week so you will know weather you are going to be in the up and down matches in at the most 4-5 days (code a isnt on for the entire week round of 32 and 16 will finish up within 5 days max if your in the last group)
It would be nice since this post is in the spotlight threads section if it reflected truthful information ^^ so people didnt get the wrong idea and continued complaining and getting worked up about things that simply arent true.
Either a mod edit or maybe xeris will edit it himself Plz
On May 21 2011 14:00 Nazarid wrote: To bad the Code A money is not worth it's weight in shit...1400 bucks for a month long qualifier tourney is just terrible there are too many smaller tournaments that pay just as good if not better than 1400 dollars in a month. IMHO Code A prize pool needs to be at least 10-15k that would make it worth while to attend but until then it is kind of just a waste to even go and perform in it due to scheduling and pay out..great you can get into code S but it takes an entire month and you to be extremely lucky to show up in Korea and be able to secure training partners and acclimate your body to the new time zone( i bet it will take u a couple weeks to get full changed over) just brings to many disadvantages for a Foreigner to join the GSL even with a free spot in Code A. I would feel completely different if they were placed into Code S for the MLG or the prize pool in Code A was worth it.
dude do you only read what the OP has to say, because hes totally wrong. The winner of MLG DOES get a spot in Code S. Man its amazing how many people just trust what this one guy says and dont read the official announcments.
Also like i said in the post above yours code a round of 32 and round of 16 happen over the course of 1 day, obviously your not gonna just get to korea and immediately have to play you will have probably 5-6 days to adjust if you want them (this applies to people that placed in places 2-5 at MLG). Honestly 3 days is enough though. Either way 1 day for code a round of 32 and round of 16 means that if you dont make it through your only there for a week MAX and its all expenses paid. Wow people really dont read posts unless they are directed exactly at them ive stated the same thing probably 10 times throughout this thread.
So i dont really see what the problem is here guys, what is wrong with an all expenses paid trip to korea, where you will know if your going to the up and down matches within a few days after you get there and then you can leave if you didnt so youve commited maybe 3-5 days in korea all expenses paid so no loss to you, and you get a chance to see how you fare against the best players in the world. Then if you dont make it to the up and down matches (round of 8) you can leave and go back to western tournaments, if you do make it to the round of 8 yoou stay for an extra week and a half or so and try your luck to make it into Code s. Hey huk did it , so if your code S material i dont really see the problem. Worst case scenario you spent 2-3 weeks in korea all expenses paid and made 500-1400 bucks (depending on where you placed after the round of 8) didnt spend a dime and got alot of valuable experience in korea and a chance to visit a foreign and very interesting country
Could someone point out anything negative about that aside fromm the fact that if you make it to the round of 8 or further but lose in the up and down matches you MIGHT have missed out on 2-3 weeks of online tournaments (you will still beable to play your NASL games should it be on at the time but if your going to the up and down matches its defenetly worth dealing with the latency) I doubt youd make you would make that much more than 500-1400 bucks(the amount you would make from making it from anywhere fromm the round of 8 to the finals) in smaller online tournaments anyways (and you could still participate in those if you really wanted too). Look at the top dog in the tournament round up when bigger tournamets arent taking place, usually they only make around 1000-2000.
I just dont see it guys, going to Korea seems like a huge opportunity especially with the format changes for code a, you dont need to spend nearly as much time there for no reason, you either make it to the up and down matches after 1 day of playing or you dont and you can go home with no loss in anyway to you because its all expenses paid.
Xeris just made it sound way worse then it actually was by leaving out details (obviously not on purpose) or suggesting stuff that they are already doing (winner of mlg makes it into code s after columbus) i cant beleive they put this post on spotlight to be honest, it paints GSL in an uneccesary negative light especially after all the changes made and the exchange program.
Its funny how a post wasnt made about this until AFTER MLG makes it way easier for foreigners to participate with the exchange, so it gets way easier to participate in GSL and people start complaining like nobody's bussiness instead of looking at it as a good thing, way to go guys.
Agree completely with what you have said here. One thing to note though is that this was posted before the new format changes for GSL and I also think that code A round 32 and 16 is played over the first 5 days of the new format ( at the early timeslot) not one day ( would be hard to braodcast 24 bo3 in a day.) This doesn't really affect your argument though as you will still know by the end of the first week whether or not you make it too up and downs.
Would be cool to see if Xeris is still reading the thread and would give his thoughts on the new gom format/schedule.
Yea i edited my post, 1 day didnt seem right (someone else stated it earlier in the post) so i checked again, 5 days max if your in the last group to see if your in the up and down matches still is very reasonable and doesnt change my argument.
edit: since i had already edited would it be possible for you to edit out the quote or replace it with the edited version, i would hate to be spreading false information myself. Which is the reason why i rechecked after i made that post right away 1 day just didnt seem to make sense, although it kind of does look like one day on the schedule if you dont read the description of the schedule as well lol
On May 20 2011 19:26 Liquid`HuK wrote: gom already got ton of backlash for inviting foreigners to code a i think a direct invite to code s would be a great insult to korean players, especially since most players would do horribly in code s.
Tell me how there was backlash. Because you were one of the players that were invited into code a, now your in code s. Dont tell me that you deserved it and the players who win a tourny and get invited dont. because you didnt do anything and get invited. and that decision was amazing by gom to let you in the gsl. if there was backlash thats like saying you being in code A/S was a mistake. Give the idea a chance. its for the sport in general. Ps: ur My fav protoss
On May 21 2011 14:00 Nazarid wrote: To bad the Code A money is not worth it's weight in shit...1400 bucks for a month long qualifier tourney is just terrible there are too many smaller tournaments that pay just as good if not better than 1400 dollars in a month. IMHO Code A prize pool needs to be at least 10-15k that would make it worth while to attend but until then it is kind of just a waste to even go and perform in it due to scheduling and pay out..great you can get into code S but it takes an entire month and you to be extremely lucky to show up in Korea and be able to secure training partners and acclimate your body to the new time zone( i bet it will take u a couple weeks to get full changed over) just brings to many disadvantages for a Foreigner to join the GSL even with a free spot in Code A. I would feel completely different if they were placed into Code S for the MLG or the prize pool in Code A was worth it.
dude do you only read what the OP has to say, because hes totally wrong. The winner of MLG DOES get a spot in Code S. Man its amazing how many people just trust what this one guy says and dont read the official announcments.
Also like i said in the post above yours code a round of 32 and round of 16 happen over the course of 1 day, obviously your not gonna just get to korea and immediately have to play you will have probably 5-6 days to adjust if you want them (this applies to people that placed in places 2-5 at MLG). Honestly 3 days is enough though. Either way 1 day for code a round of 32 and round of 16 means that if you dont make it through your only there for a week MAX and its all expenses paid. Wow people really dont read posts unless they are directed exactly at them ive stated the same thing probably 10 times throughout this thread.
So i dont really see what the problem is here guys, what is wrong with an all expenses paid trip to korea, where you will know if your going to the up and down matches within a few days after you get there and then you can leave if you didnt so youve commited maybe 3-5 days in korea all expenses paid so no loss to you, and you get a chance to see how you fare against the best players in the world. Then if you dont make it to the up and down matches (round of 8) you can leave and go back to western tournaments, if you do make it to the round of 8 yoou stay for an extra week and a half or so and try your luck to make it into Code s. Hey huk did it , so if your code S material i dont really see the problem. Worst case scenario you spent 2-3 weeks in korea all expenses paid and made 500-1400 bucks (depending on where you placed after the round of 8) didnt spend a dime and got alot of valuable experience in korea and a chance to visit a foreign and very interesting country
Could someone point out anything negative about that aside fromm the fact that if you make it to the round of 8 or further but lose in the up and down matches you MIGHT have missed out on 2-3 weeks of online tournaments (you will still beable to play your NASL games should it be on at the time but if your going to the up and down matches its defenetly worth dealing with the latency) I doubt youd make you would make that much more than 500-1400 bucks(the amount you would make from making it from anywhere fromm the round of 8 to the finals) in smaller online tournaments anyways (and you could still participate in those if you really wanted too). Look at the top dog in the tournament round up when bigger tournamets arent taking place, usually they only make around 1000-2000.
I just dont see it guys, going to Korea seems like a huge opportunity especially with the format changes for code a, you dont need to spend nearly as much time there for no reason, you either make it to the up and down matches after 1 day of playing or you dont and you can go home with no loss in anyway to you because its all expenses paid.
Xeris just made it sound way worse then it actually was by leaving out details (obviously not on purpose) or suggesting stuff that they are already doing (winner of mlg makes it into code s after columbus) i cant beleive they put this post on spotlight to be honest, it paints GSL in an uneccesary negative light especially after all the changes made and the exchange program.
Its funny how a post wasnt made about this until AFTER MLG makes it way easier for foreigners to participate with the exchange, so it gets way easier to participate in GSL and people start complaining like nobody's bussiness instead of looking at it as a good thing, way to go guys.
Agree completely with what you have said here. One thing to note though is that this was posted before the new format changes for GSL and I also think that code A round 32 and 16 is played over the first 5 days of the new format ( at the early timeslot) not one day ( would be hard to braodcast 24 bo3 in a day.) This doesn't really affect your argument though as you will still know by the end of the first week whether or not you make it too up and downs.
Would be cool to see if Xeris is still reading the thread and would give his thoughts on the new gom format/schedule.
Yea i edited my post, 1 day didnt seem right (someone else stated it earlier in the post) so i checked again, 5 days max if your in the last group to see if your in the up and down matches still is very reasonable and doesnt change my argument.
edit: since i had already edited would it be possible for you to edit out the quote or replace it with the edited version, i would hate to be spreading false information myself. Which is the reason why i rechecked after i made that post right away 1 day just didnt seem to make sense, although it kind of does look like one day on the schedule if you dont read the description of the schedule as well lol
Foreigners are lazy. They do not deserve free invites. How is it not worth it to go? ALL EXPENSE PAID Practice on the ladder, with pros Get to play against the best in GSL
Whats not good about it? Scared youll lose? So what? Its free! Dont give me that bullshit excuse that "I could make more staying in NA/EU, I wont get to be around my friends and family blah blah" That attitude is exactly why foreigners sucked in brood war and were unable to compete on the same level as koreans (Dont even bring up Ret/Idra, sure they were on proteams by were still terrible)
Foreigners just want to have their cake and eat it too without having to do anything.
If SC2 ever takes off and gets to BW pro level and Koreans sponsors are willing to fly out their players to compete in international tourneys, the foreigner scene will die just like it did in BW because when it comes down to practice KR > *
Also LOL @ making Code A an online tournament, you are aware GOM broadcasts it on TV right? Oh hey let me just tune in to my match and "stream cheat" or turn on ma map hacks. And what about pauses etc, think about these things first.
On May 21 2011 19:27 WesternProblem wrote: Foreigners are lazy. They do not deserve free invites. How is it not worth it to go? ALL EXPENSE PAID Practice on the ladder, with pros Get to play against the best in GSL
Whats not good about it? Scared youll lose? So what? Its free! Dont give me that bullshit excuse that "I could make more staying in NA/EU, I wont get to be around my friends and family blah blah" That attitude is exactly why foreigners sucked in brood war and were unable to compete on the same level as koreans (Dont even bring up Ret/Idra, sure they were on proteams by were still terrible)
Foreigners just want to have their cake and eat it too without having to do anything.
If SC2 ever takes off and gets to BW pro level and Koreans sponsors are willing to fly out their players to compete in international tourneys, the foreigner scene will die just like it did in BW because when it comes down to practice KR > *
Also LOL @ making Code A an online tournament, you are aware GOM broadcasts it on TV right? Oh hey let me just tune in to my match and "stream cheat" or turn on ma map hacks. And what about pauses etc, think about these things first.
Ummm... the Korean experience is not suppose to be an easy one. From what you've written, it seems like you want foreigners a free ride or something? Like gom should just be handing out air fares, code A/S slots,, just for the fun of it?
Great OP, I don't believe foreigners are behind koreans at all in skill level by the way, so I don't see a point in bridging the "skill gap". I completely agree with Code A being an online tournament, giving many people more opportunities. Fantastic OP and love the ideas you give out. Also I'm very excited for MLG, I just hope a korean doesn't win...Also I believe the only reason koreans have an edge is due to the practice they get.
On May 21 2011 22:29 SweetAs wrote: Ummm... the Korean experience is not suppose to be an easy one. From what you've written, it seems like you want foreigners a free ride or something? Like gom should just be handing out air fares, code A/S slots,, just for the fun of it?
Isn't that exactly what is happening with the 4 Koreans who now get an almost guaranteed permanent spot in the MLG Championship Bracket?
good read, and i think i agree most of your words. go to korea for GSL is a huge task for a team/player, even for China, such a country so close to Korea. Chinese players wanna go to Korea for GSL but they have to consider the living and practise there, just as you mentioned above.
could they not work it so that they have the code a tournaments twice as often, and have the up/down matches take place between the top four in each set of two tournaments? you may need to tweak a few things to get the numbers right, but it'd address the problems of there being not much monetary incentive for foreigners to go over for it (would probably still need to increase prize money though) and you can also get a much quicker turnover between code a/uncoded players
On May 21 2011 19:27 WesternProblem wrote: Foreigners are lazy. They do not deserve free invites. How is it not worth it to go? ALL EXPENSE PAID Practice on the ladder, with pros Get to play against the best in GSL
Whats not good about it? Scared youll lose? So what? Its free! Dont give me that bullshit excuse that "I could make more staying in NA/EU, I wont get to be around my friends and family blah blah" That attitude is exactly why foreigners sucked in brood war and were unable to compete on the same level as koreans (Dont even bring up Ret/Idra, sure they were on proteams by were still terrible)
Foreigners just want to have their cake and eat it too without having to do anything.
If SC2 ever takes off and gets to BW pro level and Koreans sponsors are willing to fly out their players to compete in international tourneys, the foreigner scene will die just like it did in BW because when it comes down to practice KR > *
Also LOL @ making Code A an online tournament, you are aware GOM broadcasts it on TV right? Oh hey let me just tune in to my match and "stream cheat" or turn on ma map hacks. And what about pauses etc, think about these things first.
Anyway, that would be nice if Xeris could edit his OP. Foreigners to code S was announced before the OP (see the 5th post of this thread), and now with the new code A schedule OP is not valid anymore (or it has to address why it's not enough)
On May 21 2011 19:27 WesternProblem wrote: Foreigners are lazy. They do not deserve free invites. How is it not worth it to go? ALL EXPENSE PAID Practice on the ladder, with pros Get to play against the best in GSL
Whats not good about it? Scared youll lose? So what? Its free! Dont give me that bullshit excuse that "I could make more staying in NA/EU, I wont get to be around my friends and family blah blah" That attitude is exactly why foreigners sucked in brood war and were unable to compete on the same level as koreans (Dont even bring up Ret/Idra, sure they were on proteams by were still terrible)
Foreigners just want to have their cake and eat it too without having to do anything.
If SC2 ever takes off and gets to BW pro level and Koreans sponsors are willing to fly out their players to compete in international tourneys, the foreigner scene will die just like it did in BW because when it comes down to practice KR > *
Also LOL @ making Code A an online tournament, you are aware GOM broadcasts it on TV right? Oh hey let me just tune in to my match and "stream cheat" or turn on ma map hacks. And what about pauses etc, think about these things first.
They don't broadcast GSL on TV, actually.
I think his point is that it is an offline, live-broadcasted event. It is part of what makes GSL stand above the other tournaments. You see the players walking in and out of their booths and a big crowd cheering for them in a nicely decorated studio/stadium, everything in live. It adds a ton of excitement and it also makes the tournament cheat-proof.
I do think Xeris should have been more informed himself before making a huge post like this especially considering he is a well known, highly respected figure in the sc2 community and a lot of people would naturally accept his words without any questioning. See, here's a good example:
On May 22 2011 02:44 StoLiVe wrote: Great read as always thanks Xeris.
Someone should translate this into korean and post it to PlayXP for the korean understand why we don't go to his event
This thread was made 5 days after the MLG-GSL partnership was announced and I would think that is an ample time to read over the details.
On May 22 2011 02:44 StoLiVe wrote: Great read as always thanks Xeris.
Someone should translate this into korean and post it to PlayXP for the korean understand why we don't go to his event
Please not, we'll look like fools, this article is basing itself on wrong facts. I really hope he update it. Right now the article is saying "I don't want to travel by plane because I hate to pedal"
I have tried to understand the GSL format but after they introduced "code" ranking, I have no idea how the thing works. Its unfortunate how its hard for pro non-korean gamers to go to the StarCraft mecca, but I think non korean tournaments will outweigh korean tournaments in the future. korea is now only a small part of the SC2 universe. 1000th post, sup?
On May 21 2011 19:27 WesternProblem wrote: Foreigners are lazy. They do not deserve free invites. How is it not worth it to go? ALL EXPENSE PAID Practice on the ladder, with pros Get to play against the best in GSL
Whats not good about it? Scared youll lose? So what? Its free! Dont give me that bullshit excuse that "I could make more staying in NA/EU, I wont get to be around my friends and family blah blah" That attitude is exactly why foreigners sucked in brood war and were unable to compete on the same level as koreans (Dont even bring up Ret/Idra, sure they were on proteams by were still terrible)
Foreigners just want to have their cake and eat it too without having to do anything.
If SC2 ever takes off and gets to BW pro level and Koreans sponsors are willing to fly out their players to compete in international tourneys, the foreigner scene will die just like it did in BW because when it comes down to practice KR > *
Also LOL @ making Code A an online tournament, you are aware GOM broadcasts it on TV right? Oh hey let me just tune in to my match and "stream cheat" or turn on ma map hacks. And what about pauses etc, think about these things first.
They don't broadcast GSL on TV, actually.
Your wrong since january it is being broadcast on Anibox, also seasons are being rebroadcast on arira tv (something like that cant remember the name)
On May 22 2011 04:22 broz0rs wrote: Xeris always writes the most intelligent, thought provoking threads/posts.
Well unfortunately so many people place so much faith in him even when he posts the wrong information. When this post was created we already knew that MLG winner would get a spot into code s, this shouldnt be stated as a proposed solution as it is already happening. Also 2 days after this thread was created news came out that GSL changed their format. Now code a round of 32 and round of 16 happen over the period of 5 days, so by the end of 5 days you will know weather or not you will be getting a chance at the up and down matches for code s or not.
What this means is that an all expenses paid trip to korea is totally worth it (another thing xeris stated wrong, the trip is all expenses paid not just flight and accomodation.) because at the very worst you spend 5 days(it will only be 4 days unless your in the last code a group) in korea to try out code a and then you can go home, no loss to you because it is all expenses paid, and at the very best you get a chance at the up and down matches and spend 2 and a half weeks there, neither of those are huge commitments and you wont be missing out on much, and in return you will be getting a chance to compete in the most competitive tournament in the world.
I honestly dont see anything negative about this, that is why i feel xeris's post is totally backwards in most aspects and is just trying to nitpick negative things that either arent true or dont matter anymore because of the gsl format change.
The post is completely misinformed im surpised at the amount of people that just chose to read this post to get their information about the MLG exchange program instead of reading the official one wich provides the correct information.
The main problems are the Code A prize pool being too small and the prize pools in general being too top heavy. And the lack of events to play in. The GSL season drags on and on and there's no other events to play in so I really feel bad for the Koreans. They have basically 1 good tournament going on at a time, and they have to play at retarded hours cross-server in order to make a name for themselves in SC2.
On May 18 2011 04:56 Xeris wrote: So think about it: any non Korean's flight cost to Korea is $1,200 - $1,800 most likely. You need a ticket to Korea, then to MLG, and then back to Korea. That's almost $3,000 in flight cost, not to count the massive amount of jet lag that will result and more than likely lead to poor enough play to have anyone who would dare to go through that journey be eliminated early from both tournaments.
I thought that was the whole point of sponsorship was to cover flight costs? If your sponsors don't think GSL/MLG are worth the cost, then what's the point of having them? Also, the prices for tickets you list are ridiculous. I fly to Taiwan almost every year and even when I book only 2-3 weeks in advance, I've never paid more than 1k round trip. Usually it's only 700-800 USD. I just searched on Orbitz for a flight leaving TOMORROW to SEOUL and could secure a 1k round trip from multiple airlines.
The second problem is that foreign players were notified of the tournament just about a week and a half ago. Moving to Korea is no small task, there are a LOT of things a team needs to do in order to make a trip to Korea. Funding this trip isn't a simple task, letters and proposals need to be written to sponsors in order to secure extra funding, flights and possibly VISAS need to be arranged, and a plan needs to be planned and executed. The fact that GOM notified foreign players basically three weeks before they would need to actually go to Korea leaves teams and organizations a VERY limited time to make accommodations. Personally, this is why Fnatic decided not to send its players -- we didn't receive enough advance notice to get everything ready.
The same thing happened for the GSL World Championships. Everything was so rushed and felt "last minute," and we didn't get enough out of the trip.
This is legitimate. GOM needs to send earlier notice.
Why are the foreigners leaving Korea
It's way too difficult to live the Korean life unless you are in Code S. The journey to qualify for Code S is not worth the time and energy it would take to have players live there. Yes, GOM has a "foreign" house, so players wouldn't have to worry about housing, but there are so many other factors to consider: acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. A player who doesn't have good practice partners or schedules will not be successful in Korea. The GOM house doesn't provide this. The house is made available, and then players are left to their own devices to practice.
Most of the Korean pro houses are full -- I know because when discussing sending Fnatic players to Korea, the major problem was where/how would the players get good training. We looked into moving into pro houses, but most are full. Spending a lot of money to send people to live in Korea just to practice on the Korean ladder is not productive.
Not sure what you expect GOM's responsibility to be. If hypothetically NASL required people to LIVE in North America (like some people such as Catz have 'suggested') then would you think it would be NASL's responsibility to house, acclimate and find practice partners for European and Korean participants?
Yes, there are hardships to moving to another country, especially one that is radically different culturally than your own. However, people who complain about the 'Korea Situation' such as yourself make it out as if GOM is using this adjustment difficulty against foreigners or something, or that it is something within their control. There isn't some giant conspiracy to 'keep the white man down' in Korea.
What can GOM do to help?
In my opinion there are two potential solutions here.
1) Make Code A an online tournament. If it was online, foreign participation would increase dramatically. It doesn't even need to be an open system, it could be done entirely on application and GOM could accept only the best/most qualified foreigners who apply. It could also be done during Korean hours and on the Korean server; this could be somewhat of a bittersweet revenge for Koreans, let the foreigners play at 3-4am for a change! This would work because foreigners would only have to worry about going to Korea if they qualified for Code S.
2) Invite foreigners directly into Code S. A good exchange program would be to invite a first placed foreign player at MLG to Code S. This way there is a huge incentive now for a foreigner to actually go to Korea. In fact, as mentioned on State of the Game, a direct Code S invite does appeal a lot more to foreign pros than a Code A invite. This way, you actually get foreigners to Korea -- if they lose in Code S, they might be more tempted to stick around to play through Code A to qualify again for Code S. Getting them directly into Code S is sort of like a "foot in the door" method and might increase the chances of foreigner retention in Korea.
These suggestions are good, although MLG is probably the worst choice for a qualifying tournament. If anything, GSL should either outsource or setup mini qualifying tournaments in Europe/North America to be placed into Code S/A.
What else?
Korea is amazing. I've watched all the GSL final events, and love them. The foreign fans love the Korean tournaments. If the GSL wants to become truly global however, more concessions need to be made to make the highest echelons more accessible to foreign players. It can't be a one way street. So far, no Korean has ever had to qualify for a foreign event, but every single foreign has had to qualify for a Korean event. This is a big problem!
Once again, this is the victim mentality that you and Catz try to paint. Guess what? Every single KOREAN has to qualify for GSL's events as well. Though you have some good points, I'm bothered by the tone of your post as a whole. Basically you want everything to be easier for you (or rather, your players.) Fact of the matter is that players like Jinro and Huk can do it. If you/your players aren't willing to make that sacrifice, then don't.
On May 20 2011 21:53 Rabbitmaster wrote: Nice write-up! Personally i don't see why any "foreigner" would want to go to GSL... The price money is horrible compared to being able to participate in all the EU/NA tournaments.
How so? look at the top earners for starcraft 2 since launch or even in the past few months, any korean who has placed in the top 8 in a gsl or 2 is going to have made more money then players placing first in tournaments in the west. So i dont really see your point that and big money tournaments like NASL have koreans who are doing well in them so they arent missing out on that either. Also NASL lasts three months with 100k prize pool , 2 gsl's and a super tournament will have happened during that time oh and the LG cinema 3d tournament that is unrelated to the gsl wich is happening next month with a first place prize of 38k. those 4 tournaments equal to close to 500k easy that is more money than probably all the prize pools combined over the past 6-7 months in the west if not longer.
On May 21 2011 19:27 WesternProblem wrote: Foreigners are lazy. They do not deserve free invites. How is it not worth it to go? ALL EXPENSE PAID Practice on the ladder, with pros Get to play against the best in GSL
Whats not good about it? Scared youll lose? So what? Its free! Dont give me that bullshit excuse that "I could make more staying in NA/EU, I wont get to be around my friends and family blah blah" That attitude is exactly why foreigners sucked in brood war and were unable to compete on the same level as koreans (Dont even bring up Ret/Idra, sure they were on proteams by were still terrible)
Foreigners just want to have their cake and eat it too without having to do anything.
If SC2 ever takes off and gets to BW pro level and Koreans sponsors are willing to fly out their players to compete in international tourneys, the foreigner scene will die just like it did in BW because when it comes down to practice KR > *
Also LOL @ making Code A an online tournament, you are aware GOM broadcasts it on TV right? Oh hey let me just tune in to my match and "stream cheat" or turn on ma map hacks. And what about pauses etc, think about these things first.
They don't broadcast GSL on TV, actually.
I think his point is that it is an offline, live-broadcasted event. It is part of what makes GSL stand above the other tournaments. You see the players walking in and out of their booths and a big crowd cheering for them in a nicely decorated studio/stadium, everything in live. It adds a ton of excitement and it also makes the tournament cheat-proof.
I do think Xeris should have been more informed himself before making a huge post like this especially considering he is a well known, highly respected figure in the sc2 community and a lot of people would naturally accept his words without any questioning. See, here's a good example:
On May 22 2011 02:44 StoLiVe wrote: Great read as always thanks Xeris.
Someone should translate this into korean and post it to PlayXP for the korean understand why we don't go to his event
This thread was made 5 days after the MLG-GSL partnership was announced and I would think that is an ample time to read over the details.
I agree, the amount of people that just blindly accept what xeris says as truth is astonishing, and i really wish he would take the time to edit his post or that he would have taken the time to read up on what he was planning on talking about in his OP. Even now after there are pages and page of myself and others pointing out what is wrong with this post people are still blindly agreeing with him, its rather unfortunate.
I also wish the mods would take this post out of the spotlight threads until it reflects true facts regarding the exchange program and the gsl format, as its rather misleading to people and pretty much sheds a negative light on korea for no reason at this point.
Why even complain. GSL always trying to give foreigners a handicap yet we still complain. Not their fault foreigners don`t perform well in GSL. I think the finger pointing should be on the foreign scene, where pro gaming and teams isn`t as developed. Just look at the prize pools of foreigner tournaments (aside from NASL now).
On May 22 2011 08:58 mango_destroyer wrote: Why even complain. GSL always trying to give foreigners a handicap yet we still complain. Not their fault foreigners don`t perform well in GSL. I think the finger pointing should be on the foreign scene, where pro gaming and teams isn`t as developed. Just look at the prize pools of foreigner tournaments (aside from NASL now).
agreed and even NASL is less than half of the GSL , gsl prize pool is somewhere around 125k and by the time NASL ends the gsl will have had around 2 and a half tournaments totalling somewhere around 350k in prize money (obviously that number is higher than usual over the same period because of the super tournament and this number doesnt include gstl)
Korea is going totally out of its way to help foreigners get into the GSL, seeds into code and code S(for first place) from MLG , a pro gaming house specifically for foreigners plane tickets and expenses paid for. Its not their fault that so far besides jinro and huk foreigners have been doing terribly. Still they have been more than inviting even having a world championships and flying out players from around the globe. Obviously our scene isnt quite there yet in terms of having the money to do these sorts of things but i doubt we would see it anyways.
Your right GOMTV is already trying, what the world needs to do is this. Form an ELITE TEAM.. Team wih the absolute best players in the world (non koreans). Pay them well enough salary and send them all to Korea and compete, get good sponsorship or what ever and keep them well trained etc.. If any foreign ever wins a Code S sponsorship, then you probably might hit gold.. A shit load of sponsors (omgosh a non korean won a korean tournament).
You just need money.
Or someone like NASL could grow bigger and expand have their own studio.. Offer a huge prize pool bigger than GSL.. and hire Jason Lee to be a commentator. Then get the koreans comming to the western side.. LoLz
On May 18 2011 05:09 Xeris wrote: It's a Code A invite, unless I'm horribly mistaken...
Hey Habit!!
apparently the MLG winner gets into code S, it might just be for the Last MLG but i am not sure. but i 100% agree with your post and i really liked this article.
On May 21 2011 19:27 WesternProblem wrote: Foreigners are lazy. They do not deserve free invites. How is it not worth it to go? ALL EXPENSE PAID Practice on the ladder, with pros Get to play against the best in GSL
Whats not good about it? Scared youll lose? So what? Its free! Dont give me that bullshit excuse that "I could make more staying in NA/EU, I wont get to be around my friends and family blah blah" That attitude is exactly why foreigners sucked in brood war and were unable to compete on the same level as koreans (Dont even bring up Ret/Idra, sure they were on proteams by were still terrible)
Foreigners just want to have their cake and eat it too without having to do anything.
If SC2 ever takes off and gets to BW pro level and Koreans sponsors are willing to fly out their players to compete in international tourneys, the foreigner scene will die just like it did in BW because when it comes down to practice KR > *
Also LOL @ making Code A an online tournament, you are aware GOM broadcasts it on TV right? Oh hey let me just tune in to my match and "stream cheat" or turn on ma map hacks. And what about pauses etc, think about these things first.
They don't broadcast GSL on TV, actually.
Your wrong since january it is being broadcast on Anibox, also seasons are being rebroadcast on arira tv (something like that cant remember the name)
On May 18 2011 05:09 Xeris wrote: It's a Code A invite, unless I'm horribly mistaken...
Hey Habit!!
apparently the MLG winner gets into code S, it might just be for the Last MLG but i am not sure. but i 100% agree with your post and i really liked this article.
I wish people would actually read the annoucement's or at least this thread where it has been said probably 30 times that MLG columbus is only code A invites and every MLG after the winner gets code S and next 3 foreigners (4 if the MLG winner is already code S or is a korean) get code A.
On May 18 2011 05:09 Xeris wrote: It's a Code A invite, unless I'm horribly mistaken...
Hey Habit!!
apparently the MLG winner gets into code S, it might just be for the Last MLG but i am not sure. but i 100% agree with your post and i really liked this article.
I wish people would actually read the annoucement's or at least this thread where it has been said probably 30 times that MLG columbus is only code A invites and every MLG after the winner gets code S and next 3 foreigners (4 if the MLG winner is already code S or is a korean) get code A.
On May 22 2011 12:37 sambo400 wrote: I think the biggest problem is that GSL's are month long tournaments.
I don't think GSL by itself is a problem by any means. It's the lack of other notable SC2 tournaments in Korea and I'm hoping the recent agreement between KeSPA and Blizzard will introduce a few more high profile tournaments in South Korea.
Having code A online would actually be a fantastic idea IMO, and would totally solve the problems with foreign participation. However, we've seen the problems playing korea to NA can cause (TSL3)
you should come out and correct your misinformation on the OP.
if you've read the thread and especially the last couple of pages, you would know you are WRONG in parts of your argument. given that many teamliquid members SOMEHOW trust you enough to blindly believe everything you write as truth, you at least owe them the truth by editing the OP unless your goal is to spread misinformation and paint the GSL as a problem.
haterssss There is a Korean problem, it looks like they are trying to fix it.
That would be nice. Interesting insight into the decision making of a team leader. Thanks for writing. There is still no guaranteed spot in code S to a foreigner. We should just train harder and want it more.
On May 23 2011 05:31 ComaDose wrote: haterssss There is a Korean problem, it looks like they are trying to fix it.
That would be nice. Interesting insight into the decision making of a team leader. Thanks for writing. There is still no guaranteed spot in code S to a foreigner. We should just train harder and want it more.
Well after MLG columbus there is a guaranteed spot for code s for the winner of the tournament. If the winner happens to be korean then they give 4 code a spots instead of three, if the korean that wins is already in code s then the person in second place gets code s instead.
you should come out and correct your misinformation on the OP.
if you've read the thread and especially the last couple of pages, you would know you are WRONG in parts of your argument. given that many teamliquid members SOMEHOW trust you enough to blindly believe everything you write as truth, you at least owe them the truth by editing the OP unless your goal is to spread misinformation and paint the GSL as a problem.
Agreed i dont know how many times this has been said. I think a mod should at least make a note in the post if they are going to put it in the spotlight section.
Soooo many people just read the OP and blindly agree with xeris as you have said. With the new format moost of the problems xeris has stated are invalid that and the fact that there is a Code S seed for MLG after columbus.
I honestly dont see how 5 days of code a would on an all expenses paid trip would be a huge burden for any progamer, after the 5 days you will know if you have gotten to the up and down matches or not, or you will have already lost and be on your way home at no costs to yourself because its all expenses paid. Whats the harm in going there and trying out code a.
Also people keep saying gsl is a month long tournament but i have never known it to be more than three weeks from the start of code a until the finals.
On May 23 2011 13:05 meegrean wrote: The way Koreans organize these tournaments make them seem so xenophobic.
I had to be careful typing this post, because I wanted to insult you so much. You're basically buying into the Xeris/Catz whine propaganda that Korea is out to keep the white man down. Is that a joke? They provide HOUSING for foreigners. Does any Western league/tourney provide housing for out of country participants?
Yes, you have to move to Korea to compete in GSL. It's because their venue is live with live players. It has NOTHING to do with a desire to keep foreigners out. Why aren't you complaining that MLG requires people to travel to MLG? Or Dreamhack? Does that make MLG xenophobic?
This post is ranty, but the ignorance of this post and others in this thread are astounding. Can people use some critical thinking instead of blindly accepting misinformation in the original post?
Nice job on that you explained on your points really well, I was wondering for a while why so few foreign players were in KR but now i know, appreciate the info!
On May 23 2011 15:02 RaLakedaimon wrote: Nice job on that you explained on your points really well, I was wondering for a while why so few foreign players were in KR but now i know, appreciate the info!
You should read the rest of the thread, or Xeris or a mod should edit the OP. At first that was a legitimate error, now that posts like this one keep coming this looks like total disinformation.
I love how you are whining about Gom not doing anything for Foreign players, what about MLG, Dreamhack, etc? They don't even have housing for Korean players, NASL makes them play with 300 latency, I mean I know you wanted to do a one sided note, but if we're gonna post something, please do post from both points of view.
Gomtv did do the second one. I do not agree with this though. The main reason is I feel like its possible that the Code A qualifiers may be as difficult as a MLG event. While this may not be true, I still do not think winning an MLG should get you to receive a code S spot.
On May 23 2011 13:05 meegrean wrote: The way Koreans organize these tournaments make them seem so xenophobic.
I had to be careful typing this post, because I wanted to insult you so much. You're basically buying into the Xeris/Catz whine propaganda that Korea is out to keep the white man down. Is that a joke? They provide HOUSING for foreigners. Does any Western league/tourney provide housing for out of country participants?
Yes, you have to move to Korea to compete in GSL. It's because their venue is live with live players. It has NOTHING to do with a desire to keep foreigners out. Why aren't you complaining that MLG requires people to travel to MLG? Or Dreamhack? Does that make MLG xenophobic?
This post is ranty, but the ignorance of this post and others in this thread are astounding. Can people use some critical thinking instead of blindly accepting misinformation in the original post?
Agreed. Those ignorant posts just keep popping up everywhere. Xenophobic? What part of: 1) Giving all foreigners an automatic entrance to Code B (Code A qualifier) 2) Listening to the foreign fans' opinions and then handing out 4 Code A spots to selected foreigners 3) Providing a foreigner house 4) Inviting 8 popular foreigners to Korea while providing their travel expenses and housing so that they can compete in GSL 5) Forming a partnership with MLG so that GSL becomes more accessible to the foreigners.
is xenophobic?
Do people really want GSL to be played in a single weekend and broadcast maybe 5% of the games played with players playing 30 games in two days?
I just want to see Thorzain and/or Naniwa to throw down in Korea. I guarantee they could throw some weight around if HuK is Code S and Idra was consistently in top 8.
Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen.
On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote: Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen.
Agreed, white people are too lazy/decadent and the asians put in all the hard work.
On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote: Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen.
Agreed, white people are too lazy/decadent and the asians put in all the hard work.
Well, it's not simply because the Koreans put in more "work"; it's that they have a better environment to work in, what with the team houses and just that general atmosphere that encourages hard work. I mean, I personally have no issues sitting down and playing SC2 for ten hours a day (or rather, I would have no issue with it if I weren't so prone to eyestrain after around three to four hours of straight playing), but there's no way I can get even half as good as the Korean pros if the only things I have going for me are my keyboard, mouse, and these forums. (And maybe my Asian blood. Lol.) But that's kind of just how it'll go, until we begin setting up actual team houses with actual practice regiments around here.
On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote: Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen.
Agreed, white people are too lazy/decadent and the asians put in all the hard work.
On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote: Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen.
Agreed, white people are too lazy/decadent and the asians put in all the hard work.
Well, it's not simply because the Koreans put in more "work"; it's that they have a better environment to work in, what with the team houses and just that general atmosphere that encourages hard work. I mean, I personally have no issues sitting down and playing SC2 for ten hours a day (or rather, I would have no issue with it if I weren't so prone to eyestrain after around three to four hours of straight playing), but there's no way I can get even half as good as the Korean pros if the only things I have going for me are my keyboard, mouse, and these forums. (And maybe my Asian blood. Lol.) But that's kind of just how it'll go, until we begin setting up actual team houses with actual practice regiments around here.
I'm a believer that motivation should come from WITHIN. I find it really pathetic that people still try and use the "Koreans have a better environment" argument. We've all seen their team houses, we've all seen them crammed 4-6 people per room living in bunk beds. They gave up a lot for this "better environment" work environment.
TLO's pro house could easily fit a lot more people too if they wanted to, but they DONT WANT TO.
Foreign players haven't been able to set up team houses yet partially because a) they don't want to leave home and b) if they could/or did want to leave home, they don't want to live in such conditions like Korean team houses. So what happens when you have people being picky about living arrangements? You have a much higher barrier to entry to set up a team house because you need to find a MUCH larger place for everyone to have their own room etc etc., leading to much higher overhead costs per individual.
The Koreans aren't only putting in "more hours" a day, but basically giving up personal space, and a comfortable living arrangement to be cramped with other people. It looks "fun" but after a while, I guarantee sleeping in bunk beds and sharing 2 bathrooms amongst 10 people isn't so fun.
Maybe this is what it takes, maybe it takes living all together in one apartment/house, working together all day, but that takes sacrifices too. If people aren't willing to make that sacrifice then they shouldn't complain and say "Koreans have a better environment."
On May 23 2011 16:06 theinfamousone wrote: I just want to see Thorzain and/or Naniwa to throw down in Korea. I guarantee they could throw some weight around if HuK is Code S and Idra was consistently in top 8.
On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote: Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen.
Yeah. When I see that Boxer himself is sleeping in a bunk bed in the same room as his teammates while the foreigners are saying that they wouldn't accept those living conditions, everything is said.
GSL is giving code S and code A spots. GSL is paying the travel cost, is giving a house to stay and is paying "accommodation" Code A ro32 and ro16 have been compressed to be held on a 4 days period. (so a foreigner can stay less than one week if he loses)
On May 23 2011 16:06 theinfamousone wrote: I just want to see Thorzain and/or Naniwa to throw down in Korea. I guarantee they could throw some weight around if HuK is Code S and Idra was consistently in top 8.
On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote: Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen.
Yeah. When I see that Boxer himself is sleeping in a bunk bed in the same room as his teammates while the foreigners are saying that they wouldn't accept those living conditions, everything is said.
GSL is giving code S and code A spots. GSL is paying the travel cost, is giving a house to stay and is paying "accommodation" Code A ro32 and ro16 have been compressed to be held on a 4 days period. (so a foreigner can stay less than one week if he loses)
Well it has to do with what I hate the most about every foreigner; They're not ready to work as hard as koreans for the prizes. They want casual training regimes and accommodation and less hard opponents to win the prize pool... why go to Korea and actually fight for the money when you can play all the open tournaments you want and stomp the shitty casual masters in EU/US.
I hate it, because it gives me as a viewer less good games. Just look as far as the NASL, we can't even produce 50 amazing players (Yes alot of them are, but alot of them are NOT)
On May 23 2011 16:48 Yaotzin wrote: Should close this thread, it's pretty outdated now and just misinforming people.
This thread needs to be closed, it gives people a very negative view on korea and koreans. When i read it it didnt really give me so much that feeling but i realised that alot of the information on here was wrong right away. Clearly to other people though it gives them the idea that korea is a very unwelcoming place for foreigners wich just simply isnt true, they have been more accomadating for foreigners than any other organization in or out of korea (weather the koreans are the foreigners in the west or vice versa)
I really hope this isnt what xeris was trying to do with this post, the conclusions people have come up with based on this post are very discouraging. This post basically has given people an outlet to hate on korea and the gsl. Gsl is the best tournament hands down and i dont think anyone would deny that, before this thread i had never even heard a single complaint about the GSL besides maybe the dissapointing finals wich is nobody's fault so it wasnt pointing fingers at anybody.
Basically this thread has turned into an anti korean thread from one side, and then counter arguments fromm what i perceive as the more rational side. Alot of people just read the OP and take everything that was said there at face value and draw their conclusions fromm there.
Xeris or a mod need to edit this post, i cant beleive it was put in the spotlight section =/
I disagree completely that Code A should be "online" as a possible solution. I far prefer live events to online events and casting by replays. Making Code A "online" would ruin that event for me completely. I hope we see more live events in the booth, not less.
On May 18 2011 05:09 Xeris wrote: It's a Code A invite, unless I'm horribly mistaken...
Hey Habit!!
My understanding is that this MLG is only like 3 Code A invites, but future MLGs will be winner gets Code S + a few Code As.
Can someone clarify?
This is completely true, but since this post came out xeris seems to have dissapeared, he has not addressed anyones concerns about the validity of his post and it has even become a spotlight thread.
People read this and immediately assume that everything xeris has stated in here is true because of his position in the community, the fact that he didnt take the time to go through the actual information before making this post is ridiculous and allows people to draw negative conclusions about korea and the GSL wich i dont feel is right at all.
Another unfortunate factor is that this post is now outdated as the GSL has changed their format, now code a round of 32 and round of 16 last a total of 4-5 days (depending on what group you are in) wich means a foreigner who qualified through MLG can take their all expenses paid trip to korea compete in the round of 32 and the round of 16 if they make it and they will have only been there for 4-5 days at that point they will know if they make it to the up and down matches and have a shot at code s, at wich point its obviously worth it to stay for another week and a half (when the up and down matches start) to see if you have got what it takes to get into code s (or if you win code a you get a direct seed now) Considering that its all expenses paid this commitment seems minimal and at worst you may have to play a match or 2 online if your in the NASL, but that shouldnt be a huge deal right now in the NASL there are 4 koreans and sen in the top 10 (sen is fromm taiwan and the latency would be similair) if they can do it , it shouldnt be such a huge deal especially if your getting a shot at code s.
another thing wich xeris was wrong about he states that foreigners will have to pay for everything themselves beyond travel and accomadation wich is untrue and even if it wasnt what else is there really food? thats not all that expensive im sure the 200 dollars you would receive if you fall out in the first round of code a would more than cover the 4 days of food. All in all Xeris has somehow turned alot of people off of this hugely positive opportunity in wich you make a 5 day commitment at the most to get a shot at code s, if you dont make it no harm no foul you go home and youve had a nice 4-5 days in korea all expenses paid, heck if it were me i would stay for an extra week just to see the sights. I dont understand all the negativity surrounding this, but i feel it has something to do with xeris along with people wanting to put down a scene other then their own, his post is very convincing for someone who takes what he says at face value and hasnt taken the time to read what is going on themselves.
On May 23 2011 18:16 AmiPolizeiFunk wrote: I disagree completely that Code A should be "online" as a possible solution. I far prefer live events to online events and casting by replays. Making Code A "online" would ruin that event for me completely. I hope we see more live events in the booth, not less.
Totally agree that was a terrible solution sacrificing quality to accomadate foreigners is unnacceptable, especially considering how accomadating they already are if you travel there.
I think xeris went about this thread the wrong way it just sound whiney and arrogant why would koreans totally dumb down the quality of their tournament to accomadate lazy foreigners if you dont want to travel to korea thats fine, if you do they are very accomadating to foreigners, no one should get a free or easy ride into the biggest most competitive tournament in the world at the moment.
I don't watch GOM since 2 seasons now. The finals are weak, I don't know the players, there are new ones to arrive, I have never heard of. Old ones drop to code A. Doesnt matter, cause they aren't individuals in any way, all that differs is the choreo they do into the camera when they have won.
Foreigners are non existent, and if there are foreigners, they will be in the same group so that only one of em advances...
The foreigner-scene invites koreans to everything, the koreans don't have to go through qualifiers like everyone else, no they are the VIPs, we need them in our tournaments, otherwise we aren't skilled enough.
So whereas the local nerd rages in his qualifier cup, the korean waits in the VIP-area to win the hole tournament and than makes rassist comments about white people...
On May 23 2011 19:31 schI2ler wrote: I totaly agree with you Xeris.
I don't watch GOM since 2 seasons now. The finals are weak, I don't know the players, there are new ones to arrive, I have never heard of. Old ones drop to code A. Doesnt matter, cause they aren't individuals in any way, all that differs is the choreo they do into the camera when they have won.
Foreigners are non existent, and if there are foreigners, they will be in the same group so that only one of em advances...
The foreigner-scene invites koreans to everything, the koreans don't have to go through qualifiers like everyone else, no they are the VIPs, we need them in our tournaments, otherwise we aren't skilled enough.
So whereas the local nerd rages in his qualifier cup, the korean waits in the VIP-area to win the hole tournament and than makes rassist comments about white people...
Wut? And is giving 3code A spots and a code S spot not enough as VIP treatment? yes you need to win MLG for it but lets be honest, if you can't do that you won't do much in the GSL.
in the NASL, i understand now what the korean problem is. Korean are getting better and better at this game while foreigners are growing lazy and bad. A 30 food advantage in a mirror match, specially + Show Spoiler +
zerg
is huge, but foreigners just don't know how to play late game on that mirror. The gap between foreigners and koreans will only grow bigger. Right now, they have the mental attitude of WoW player, farming gold through countless small tournaments. They will get "rich" that way, but training in prohouses on a way more competitive environment is what makes you the best.
On May 23 2011 19:31 schI2ler wrote: I totaly agree with you Xeris.
I don't watch GOM since 2 seasons now. The finals are weak, I don't know the players, there are new ones to arrive, I have never heard of. Old ones drop to code A. Doesnt matter, cause they aren't individuals in any way, all that differs is the choreo they do into the camera when they have won.
Foreigners are non existent, and if there are foreigners, they will be in the same group so that only one of em advances...
The foreigner-scene invites koreans to everything, the koreans don't have to go through qualifiers like everyone else, no they are the VIPs, we need them in our tournaments, otherwise we aren't skilled enough.
So whereas the local nerd rages in his qualifier cup, the korean waits in the VIP-area to win the hole tournament and than makes rassist comments about white people...
Uhhhh lol see what you have done xeris, your post just attracts the racists who want an outlet to hate on koreans. Those are the people who are agreeing with you, im sure this isnt what you had in mind when you made this post.
At least i hope not.
When have you heard any korean in the pro gaming scene make a racist comment about white people. Maybe at IEM where the WHITE people made moon say "koreans own white dudes" but the white people made him say that =/
and you havent even watched GSL for 2 seasons so your post holds no merit as you have no idea whats going on.
The fact that people are calling this the "Korean problem" kind of pisses me off because it implies some underlying mindset of entitlement, or, if not entitlement, at least some idea that Koreans are to blame. There are multitudes of other names that could have been used.
On May 23 2011 19:31 schI2ler wrote: I totaly agree with you Xeris.
I don't watch GOM since 2 seasons now. The finals are weak, I don't know the players, there are new ones to arrive, I have never heard of. Old ones drop to code A. Doesnt matter, cause they aren't individuals in any way, all that differs is the choreo they do into the camera when they have won.
Foreigners are non existent, and if there are foreigners, they will be in the same group so that only one of em advances...
The foreigner-scene invites koreans to everything, the koreans don't have to go through qualifiers like everyone else, no they are the VIPs, we need them in our tournaments, otherwise we aren't skilled enough.
So whereas the local nerd rages in his qualifier cup, the korean waits in the VIP-area to win the hole tournament and than makes rassist comments about white people...
Wut? And is giving 3code A spots and a code S spot not enough as VIP treatment? yes you need to win MLG for it but lets be honest, if you can't do that you won't do much in the GSL.
And a progaming house just for foreigners and an all expenses paid trip to korea for up to a month. That sounds way more VIP then ANYTHING we have given the koreans.
On May 23 2011 20:04 HolyArrow wrote: The fact that people are calling this the "Korean problem" kind of pisses me off because it implies some underlying mindset of entitlement, or, if not entitlement, at least some idea that Koreans are to blame. There are multitudes of other names that could have been used.
Yea totally agree, the name choice was terrible and the fact that it has been put in the spotlight is absolutely appauling. If you notice alot of the people agreeing with xeris seem to be borderline racist or just blindly agree with him regardless of the fact that the OP is full of alot of false or outdated information.
Uhhhh lol see what you have done xeris, your post just attracts the racists who want an outlet to hate on koreans. Those are the people who are agreeing with you, im sure this isnt what you had in mind when you made this post.
I don't hate koreans. I am not racist. I know you saying this takes credit away from everything I said, so well done, but I will go into details for you:
GOM/GSL gave 3 code A spots, the additional Code S spot came only after a lot of critizism from the foreigner scene who didn't see an equal trade. So you should not attack the critics but thank them.
If a foreigner took an invitation to a korean tournament and then he talked bad about koreans (and being it only that they get owned) this would upset the Koreans. Why should it then not be an upset if a korean Guest makes the Foreigners lose their face?
I hope to see koreans in international events, but I want them to earn their spots, just like other people do. I want them to muscle down, and go all through the qualifier like Naniwa did. I want them to collect their points to the top16 seed.
But at the moment, I see a tendency in sc2, that you invite players (and this applies to foreigners aswell) not because of their skill, their succes or their ladderrank, but because of their online-viewership.
And even worse, when the tournament organizer is at the "we need koreans"-point, to often it doesnt matter who gets invited: "We need 4 of em" Yes I understand, that tournaments want to grow, and show trough their grid how important they are, but why then do you invite (or get) koreans from the B team? I want MVP, I want Nestea, I want Boxer, I want Nada.
And about the GOM-Players: In my eyes they get treated as if they were expendable. There is absolutely no room for personal individual stuff. They come in uniform and their playstile is many times absolutely standart to the korean ladder norm. If I wanted to analyse brutal timing pushes, I'd have to watch this, but I want an 8bases 1v1 where the stronger mind wins.
Uhhhh lol see what you have done xeris, your post just attracts the racists who want an outlet to hate on koreans. Those are the people who are agreeing with you, im sure this isnt what you had in mind when you made this post.
I don't hate koreans. I am not racist. I know you saying this takes credit away from everything I said, so well done, but I will go into details for you:
GOM/GSL gave 3 code A spots, the additional Code S spot came only after a lot of critizism from the foreigner scene who didn't see an equal trade. So you should not attack the critics but thank them.
If a foreigner took an invitation to a korean tournament and than he talked bad about koreans (and being it only that they get owned) this would upset the Koreans. Why should it then not be an upset if a korean Guest makes the Foreigners lose their face?
I hope to see koreans in international events, but I want them to earn their spots, just like other people do. I want them to muscle down, and go all through the qualifier like Naniwa did. I want them to collect their points to the top16 seed.
But at the moment, I see a tendency in sc2, that you invite players (and this applies to foreigners aswell) not because of their skill, their succes or their ladderrank, but because of their online-viewership.
And even worse, when the tournament organizer is at the "we need koreans"-point, to often it doesnt matter who gets invited: "We need 4 of em" Yes I understand, that tournaments want to grow, and show trough their grid how important they are, but why then do you invite (or get) koreans from the B team? I want MVP, I want Nestea, I want Boxer, I want Nada.
And about the GOM-Players: In my eyes they get treated as if they were expendable. There is absolutely no room for personal individual stuff. They come in uniform and their playstile is many times absolutely standart to the korean ladder norm. If I wanted to analyse brutal timing pushes, I'd have to watch this, but I want an 8bases 1v1 where the stronger mind wins.
You are wrong the Code S spot was in the MLG annoucement from the start it's just that the GSL format changes won't fully come into affect until after the next codeA/S season so MLG Collumbus only has the code Aspots.
This has been said a hundred times in this thread.
Uhhhh lol see what you have done xeris, your post just attracts the racists who want an outlet to hate on koreans. Those are the people who are agreeing with you, im sure this isnt what you had in mind when you made this post.
I don't hate koreans. I am not racist. I know you saying this takes credit away from everything I said, so well done, but I will go into details for you:
GOM/GSL gave 3 code A spots, the additional Code S spot came only after a lot of critizism from the foreigner scene who didn't see an equal trade. So you should not attack the critics but thank them.
If a foreigner took an invitation to a korean tournament and than he talked bad about koreans (and being it only that they get owned) this would upset the Koreans. Why should it then not be an upset if a korean Guest makes the Foreigners lose their face?
I hope to see koreans in international events, but I want them to earn their spots, just like other people do. I want them to muscle down, and go all through the qualifier like Naniwa did. I want them to collect their points to the top16 seed.
But at the moment, I see a tendency in sc2, that you invite players (and this applies to foreigners aswell) not because of their skill, their succes or their ladderrank, but because of their online-viewership.
And even worse, when the tournament organizer is at the "we need koreans"-point, to often it doesnt matter who gets invited: "We need 4 of em" Yes I understand, that tournaments want to grow, and show trough their grid how important they are, but why then do you invite (or get) koreans from the B team? I want MVP, I want Nestea, I want Boxer, I want Nada.
And about the GOM-Players: In my eyes they get treated as if they were expendable. There is absolutely no room for personal individual stuff. They come in uniform and their playstile is many times absolutely standart to the korean ladder norm. If I wanted to analyse brutal timing pushes, I'd have to watch this, but I want an 8bases 1v1 where the stronger mind wins.
All the MLG invites are S class players (maybe except Moon), and very well known if you actually followed GSL and especially GSTL. It's a great insult to call MMA, Losira and Bomber B teamers.
GSL also provides much more personality to players than online tournaments like NASL or IPL. How can you even claim gom players are expendable when you don't even watch GSL? If you watch the most recent GSTL, you'll see shit that you'll NEVER see in a foreigner tournaments.
Also timing pushes are the correct way to explore RTS, Koreans are doing it right. How else would you discover timings? How would you know when to take your expo without people exploring when you can attack? Do you think people expanded like mad like they do now in SC1's early days? Lot of foreigners(except for select few top players) sit back, turtle and macro because they don't know when they can attack or when they should prepare for defense like the Koreans do.
If you want to watch an 8 base 1v1 45 min games, I suggest you tune into a bronze-silver KOTH stuff. sounds like you won't be able to tell the difference anyway.
Uhhhh lol see what you have done xeris, your post just attracts the racists who want an outlet to hate on koreans. Those are the people who are agreeing with you, im sure this isnt what you had in mind when you made this post.
I don't hate koreans. I am not racist. I know you saying this takes credit away from everything I said, so well done, but I will go into details for you:
GOM/GSL gave 3 code A spots, the additional Code S spot came only after a lot of critizism from the foreigner scene who didn't see an equal trade. So you should not attack the critics but thank them.
If a foreigner took an invitation to a korean tournament and than he talked bad about koreans (and being it only that they get owned) this would upset the Koreans. Why should it then not be an upset if a korean Guest makes the Foreigners lose their face?
I hope to see koreans in international events, but I want them to earn their spots, just like other people do. I want them to muscle down, and go all through the qualifier like Naniwa did. I want them to collect their points to the top16 seed.
But at the moment, I see a tendency in sc2, that you invite players (and this applies to foreigners aswell) not because of their skill, their succes or their ladderrank, but because of their online-viewership.
And even worse, when the tournament organizer is at the "we need koreans"-point, to often it doesnt matter who gets invited: "We need 4 of em" Yes I understand, that tournaments want to grow, and show trough their grid how important they are, but why then do you invite (or get) koreans from the B team? I want MVP, I want Nestea, I want Boxer, I want Nada.
And about the GOM-Players: In my eyes they get treated as if they were expendable. There is absolutely no room for personal individual stuff. They come in uniform and their playstile is many times absolutely standart to the korean ladder norm. If I wanted to analyse brutal timing pushes, I'd have to watch this, but I want an 8bases 1v1 where the stronger mind wins.
You really don't know what you're talking about, some great styles have come out of the GSL, Kyrix's baneling agression. MKP started the very very heavy marine play which heavily effected TvZ, not only in korea, but in every other single region. July's style of mass agression after getting a decent economy.
Have you seen Fruitdealer's run through the open season 1 of GSL? Where zerg was viewed as the weakest race by far and seemed like it was impossible to win against terran. He used his own 'playstile' (to quote you) to go through a sea of terran and probably create the most memorable run through the GSL.
Alot of the korean players are fan favourites because of their unique styles, because of their dominance (MC, Nestea, MVP - all dual-champions).
Just because a game gets to 8 base vs 8 base doesn't make it better, it could just been a drawn out game that becomes painful to watch because both players play sloppily or far too passively. I'd rather see a very well executed push or rush then a drawn out game because neither player was decisive enough to take advantage and go for the win. Creativity isn't a bad thing, but then again entertainment is something that can vary from viewer to viewer, so each to his own there.
Your argument seems shallow and uninformed, don't generalise an entire region of players.
a) I don't think that MMA Losira and Bomber are the best Korea has. b) I don't think that GSL gives more room to individuals than NASL. c) I do watch GSL but I don't care, so I see whats happening but I don't think it's dope, so I "know" the players. d) I don't think that I "discover timings" by watching GSL, I think playing helps. e) I don't think foreigners turtle all day long and don't know when to attack or how to defend. f) I don't think that 8 base 1v1 is bronze-silver I sure hope it's the future.
On May 23 2011 21:17 schI2ler wrote: Nayl I just don't think you are right.
a) I don't think that MMA Losira and Bomber are the best Korea has. b) I don't think that GSL gives more room to individuals than NASL. c) I do watch GSL but I don't care, so I see whats happening but I don't think it's dope, so I "know" the players. d) I don't think that I "discover timings" by watching GSL, I think playing helps. e) I don't think foreigners turtle all day long and don't know when to attack or how to defend. f) I don't think that 8 base 1v1 is bronze-silver I sure hope it's the future.
What about the fact you said the community was responsible for the cose S spot when it was in there from the start and had nothing to do with uninformed whiners like you.
On May 23 2011 21:17 schI2ler wrote: Nayl I just don't think you are right.
a) I don't think that MMA Losira and Bomber are the best Korea has. b) I don't think that GSL gives more room to individuals than NASL. c) I do watch GSL but I don't care, so I see whats happening but I don't think it's dope, so I "know" the players. d) I don't think that I "discover timings" by watching GSL, I think playing helps. e) I don't think foreigners turtle all day long and don't know when to attack or how to defend. f) I don't think that 8 base 1v1 is bronze-silver I sure hope it's the future.
They aren't obviously BEST they have, but they are no where near B teamers.
Your second statement is so ridiculous I don't even know how to respond. What exactly does NASL do that gives player more room that GSL doesn't? In GSL you also actually get to see their face and reaction.
You don't care because you don't like Korea.
I don't mean for YOU to discover timings by watching GSL, What I'm saying is they are doing the right thing by exploring timing pushes.
You really don't know what you're talking about, some great styles have come out of the GSL, Kyrix's baneling agression. MKP started the very very heavy marine play which heavily effected TvZ, not only in korea, but in every other single region. July's style of mass agression after getting a decent economy.
Have you seen Fruitdealer's run through the open season 1 of GSL? Where zerg was viewed as the weakest race by far and seemed like it was impossible to win against terran. He used his own 'playstile' (to quote you) to go through a sea of terran and probably create the most memorable run through the GSL.
Alot of the korean players are fan favourites because of their unique styles, because of their dominance (MC, Nestea, MVP - all dual-champions). .
Your argument seems shallow and uninformed, don't generalise an entire region of players.
What makes you think I don't give credit to all the great styles that GSL brought us? All I said was, that lot of it is not "invented" at GSL but comes out of the korean ladder. The korean ladder is in my eyes by far the most skilled area to practice and learn your timings and see new brilliant builds.
But I just don't think that every player from korea is better than every player from the rest of the world.
The Fruitdealer run was epic, and I still hope he comes back huge. MC Nestea, MVP and many others are great and I love to watch them, but I feel like they are not only great in micro and macro but that they also understand a huge deal about the game in total and especially the relative matchup.
Also I really don't get all the hate. I did not generalise an entire region of players.
edit: Free the topic, I stop chatting here, join #tl
You really don't know what you're talking about, some great styles have come out of the GSL, Kyrix's baneling agression. MKP started the very very heavy marine play which heavily effected TvZ, not only in korea, but in every other single region. July's style of mass agression after getting a decent economy.
Have you seen Fruitdealer's run through the open season 1 of GSL? Where zerg was viewed as the weakest race by far and seemed like it was impossible to win against terran. He used his own 'playstile' (to quote you) to go through a sea of terran and probably create the most memorable run through the GSL.
Alot of the korean players are fan favourites because of their unique styles, because of their dominance (MC, Nestea, MVP - all dual-champions). .
Your argument seems shallow and uninformed, don't generalise an entire region of players.
What makes you think I don't give credit to all the great styles that GSL brought us? All I said was, that lot of it is not "invented" at GSL but comes out of the korean ladder. The korean ladder is in my eyes by far the most skilled area to practice and learn your timings and see new brilliant builds.
But I just don't think that every player from korea is better than every player from the rest of the world.
The Fruitdealer run was epic, and I still hope he comes back huge. MC Nestea, MVP and many others are great and I love to watch them, but I feel like they are not only great in micro and macro but that they also understand a huge deal about the game in total and especially the relative matchup.
Also I really don't get all the hate. I did not generalise an entire region of players.
Still ignoring the fact you were completely wrong about the MLG code S invite.
On May 23 2011 20:50 schI2ler wrote: And about the GOM-Players: In my eyes they get treated as if they were expendable. There is absolutely no room for personal individual stuff. They come in uniform and their playstile is many times absolutely standart to the korean ladder norm. If I wanted to analyse brutal timing pushes, I'd have to watch this, but I want an 8bases 1v1 where the stronger mind wins.
Did you not say, you were not watching GSL anymore for two seasons? But you still do a sweeping generalization of GSL/GSTL play that seems wrong to me in my unskilled SC2 spectator mind. I feel I got to see a good amount of long games with the new maps, less unrefined play than outside of the Korean scene and also successful play that felt unconventional. And you get to see the actual individuals in GOM broadcasts! I did not see anything comparable except the Dreamhack Invitational which was an awesome (probably the best) event from start to finish.
On May 23 2011 19:31 schI2ler wrote: I totaly agree with you Xeris.
I don't watch GOM since 2 seasons now. The finals are weak, I don't know the players, there are new ones to arrive, I have never heard of. Old ones drop to code A. Doesnt matter, cause they aren't individuals in any way, all that differs is the choreo they do into the camera when they have won.
Foreigners are non existent, and if there are foreigners, they will be in the same group so that only one of em advances...
The foreigner-scene invites koreans to everything, the koreans don't have to go through qualifiers like everyone else, no they are the VIPs, we need them in our tournaments, otherwise we aren't skilled enough.
So whereas the local nerd rages in his qualifier cup, the korean waits in the VIP-area to win the hole tournament and than makes rassist comments about white people...
This is so untrue I don't even know where to begin. When Ret, Haypro, MoonGlade, and Huk qualified for code A in March, they didn't face each other at all. Actually, the only one to advance was Huk.
Also, do you think any EU/NA tournament is going to give an all expense paid trip to any Korean if they come to a tourney? Do you think the NASL is going to give an all expense paid trip to anyone that qualifies for the top 16?
Get it right, foreigners are non-existent because A) They choose to be, or B) They aren't good enough yet.
I think one of the biggest problems with GSL / "the korean problem" is that they have been the top dog of SC broadcasting for years, mostly for lack of heavy competition. I think they really need to re-think HOW they see themselves and their players in the world stage before they come off as being "superior" or "stuck up" about their skill.
I'm just afraid that GSL will fall into the shadows because everyone sees them as the main competition. When (notice i said when) some other business decides that sc2 is a huge money maker, it will dwarf what GSL has done. You start getting Coke or Pepsi involved with this stuff, we'll start having stadiums built FOR sc2 (or e-sports) and then GOM will look like a back-yard production. It's just a matter of how they want to evolve. Evolve by trying to be more world oriented, or try to keep a strangle hold on the industry and possibly get produced out of existence (which I hope the latter does not happen).
Well written article, elaborated on a few points we haven't talked about alot. I think in another half a year SC might truly be in more of a global state. Cheers!
Uhhhh lol see what you have done xeris, your post just attracts the racists who want an outlet to hate on koreans. Those are the people who are agreeing with you, im sure this isnt what you had in mind when you made this post.
I don't hate koreans. I am not racist. I know you saying this takes credit away from everything I said, so well done, but I will go into details for you:
GOM/GSL gave 3 code A spots, the additional Code S spot came only after a lot of critizism from the foreigner scene who didn't see an equal trade. So you should not attack the critics but thank them.
If a foreigner took an invitation to a korean tournament and then he talked bad about koreans (and being it only that they get owned) this would upset the Koreans. Why should it then not be an upset if a korean Guest makes the Foreigners lose their face?
I hope to see koreans in international events, but I want them to earn their spots, just like other people do. I want them to muscle down, and go all through the qualifier like Naniwa did. I want them to collect their points to the top16 seed.
But at the moment, I see a tendency in sc2, that you invite players (and this applies to foreigners aswell) not because of their skill, their succes or their ladderrank, but because of their online-viewership.
And even worse, when the tournament organizer is at the "we need koreans"-point, to often it doesnt matter who gets invited: "We need 4 of em" Yes I understand, that tournaments want to grow, and show trough their grid how important they are, but why then do you invite (or get) koreans from the B team? I want MVP, I want Nestea, I want Boxer, I want Nada.
And about the GOM-Players: In my eyes they get treated as if they were expendable. There is absolutely no room for personal individual stuff. They come in uniform and their playstile is many times absolutely standart to the korean ladder norm. If I wanted to analyse brutal timing pushes, I'd have to watch this, but I want an 8bases 1v1 where the stronger mind wins.
Your completely wrong there the additional code s spot WAS ALWAYS THERE! It really pisses me off how many people didnt actually read the original announcement properly, The first day the announcment came out i read it , and it said "After MLG Columbus the winner of MLG will get a seed into code s or something along those lines" they didnt change it because of some uprise from the foreigners or whatever nonesense you are spouting.
God its ridiculous how many people need to learn how to read. Its really xeris's fault that you think this though, but just because he didnt read the announcement properly doesnt mean that what he said in his OP is true. From day 1 of the announcement it has said that there will be a code s spot given to the winner of MLG , after columbus of course.
On May 24 2011 00:57 DeamonMachine wrote: I think one of the biggest problems with GSL / "the korean problem" is that they have been the top dog of SC broadcasting for years, mostly for lack of heavy competition. I think they really need to re-think HOW they see themselves and their players in the world stage before they come off as being "superior" or "stuck up" about their skill.
I'm just afraid that GSL will fall into the shadows because everyone sees them as the main competition. When (notice i said when) some other business decides that sc2 is a huge money maker, it will dwarf what GSL has done. You start getting Coke or Pepsi involved with this stuff, we'll start having stadiums built FOR sc2 (or e-sports) and then GOM will look like a back-yard production. It's just a matter of how they want to evolve. Evolve by trying to be more world oriented, or try to keep a strangle hold on the industry and possibly get produced out of existence (which I hope the latter does not happen).
lol, and you dont think gom will evolve with the rest of them. If e-sports starts to get big in the west GSL will still be the main thing people watch therefore it will grow and grow with the rest of the leagues, coke has already sponsored GSL, and you dont think companies like LG are huge?
Have you even seen a GSL finals before, i highly doubt we will ever see anything with that high of a production value in the west. Or did you see the world championship game on the 50 foot 3d screen at the LG convention center.
Its not like e-sports is really exploding in the west as much as people say, aside from the first day NASL has never seen more than 20k viewers, i dont even know if thats enough to stay afloat i certainly think that they thought it would be much bigger.
I just dont see how you think that esports will grow but GSL wont with it, that doesnt really make sense if more people start getting into esports gom will be their go to programing as it features the best players and the highest production value, its not like this is just going to happen over night , as more and more people get into it more and more people will start to watch the GSL along with other productions, the two arent exclusive.
I still dont think that getting 10-20k viewers for tournaments in the west right now is a sign that esports is exploading that really isnt that many people. I mean commercial wise justin tv gives something like 2.50 cents per 1000 impressions i heard (something like that) meaning that fromm commercials right now NASL isnt making anymore then a couple hundred bucks per broadcast. Unless things really start exploading i dont see it being a hugely sucessful venture maybe it will continue with a lower prize pool but its not getting 300k or more viewers like GSL and the vods arent getting hundreds of thousands of views or anything close to that either. I mean the worst finals for the GSL yet already has close to 200k views for its vod. NASL has at max like 10k for a vod that i have seen most sit in the 100's and a few in the low 1000's GSL will never look like a backyard production either i dont know how you could say that, some of their finals look like prestigious award ceramonies with the highest production values. I dont think starcraft in the west will ever become that, mainly because the offline league format doesnt work , or foreigners are too lazy to make it work/ dont want to give up where they live to make esports better wich is totally understandable because despite all this talk about esports growing in the west, it still really isnt that big at all, korea still has a bigger esports community (including sc1) then the rest of the world, and has more people that watch esports. The west has alot of potential it just isnt there yet and i dont know if it will ever be, its not like since all these new leagues have come out (NASL, IPL) we are seeing record numbers or anyhting
Althought with TSL i would say yes 60k viewers is quite impressive, but it was a tournament held on weekends i doubt they could keep those numbers up 4-5 days a week, and thats like the bare minimum amount of viewers i would say are needed for any huge company to start taking interest in esports. Sure 20k viewers is alright, but coke or pepsi isnt going to pay alot to make an impression on 20k viewers and they have far far better opportunities to make impressions on millions of people at once.
This whole attitude of GSL is going to fail soon and we are going to crush them is terrible. Why wouldnt you hope that all leagues succeed?
GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers.
On May 23 2011 19:31 schI2ler wrote: I totaly agree with you Xeris.
I don't watch GOM since 2 seasons now. The finals are weak, I don't know the players, there are new ones to arrive, I have never heard of. Old ones drop to code A. Doesnt matter, cause they aren't individuals in any way, all that differs is the choreo they do into the camera when they have won.
Foreigners are non existent, and if there are foreigners, they will be in the same group so that only one of em advances...
The foreigner-scene invites koreans to everything, the koreans don't have to go through qualifiers like everyone else, no they are the VIPs, we need them in our tournaments, otherwise we aren't skilled enough.
So whereas the local nerd rages in his qualifier cup, the korean waits in the VIP-area to win the hole tournament and than makes rassist comments about white people...
This is so untrue I don't even know where to begin. When Ret, Haypro, MoonGlade, and Huk qualified for code A in March, they didn't face each other at all. Actually, the only one to advance was Huk.
Also, do you think any EU/NA tournament is going to give an all expense paid trip to any Korean if they come to a tourney? Do you think the NASL is going to give an all expense paid trip to anyone that qualifies for the top 16?
Get it right, foreigners are non-existent because A) They choose to be, or B) They aren't good enough yet.
Is the amount of practice that determine if someone will end up being good or bad. Just look at the team league, and how serious they are about training. They have a team house just for training. Accommodations and food are all provided. Which foreigners team are even on par with them?
Saying foreigners are better is an insult to the Koreans. They train harder so they deserve to be better, and it is almost clearly the case. The difference is not that huge, but expect it to widen. Whoever trains more becomes better in the best possible environment becomes better.
Face it, a majority foreign pro gamers wouldn't even put themselves in the cramped situations that pro-gamers in Korea do even IF given the chance aside from the obvious people (Jinro, HuK, HayPro, Ret and such).
Maybe that is what is needed though, a large amount of people living together, watching each other play every day and bouncing ideas off each other. But if foreign pro gamers are going to be snobs about it, not want to live in those conditions, then they deserve to be worse. You can't expect to be the best, without sacrificing something in return. Similarly, you can't expect to be the best, if you don't put in nearly as much work. So foreign progamers might say "I don't want to live in conditions like that, nor do I want to have such a rigid practice schedule." Thats fine, no one holds you to it, hell, I wouldn't want to live like that either. Difference is, I don't expect to be the best, and when I'm not, I don't complain about "Koreans invading my tournaments".
On May 24 2011 05:10 Blasphemi wrote: GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers.
Don't hate just because Zotac the only thing a lot of these people can win! hahaha
On May 24 2011 05:10 Blasphemi wrote: GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers.
Don't hate just because Zotac the only thing a lot of these people can win! hahaha
Its funny the amount of people who use the argument "but they miss out on all the smaller online tournaments!" as a good reason to not go to korea. I have a few questions for thoes people. If you won 10 of those smaller online tournaments in the same amount of time as the gsl (3weeks) would you make even nearly as much money as getting to round of 8 in the gsl? Have you ever seen anyone in the tournament round up win anymore then 3 or so online cups in a 2 week period (because i dont think i have seen anyone do that aside from maybe kas and even then it was 5 or so and he made like 900 bucks wich isnt even as much as losing in the first round of code s) If online tournaments were really that important to you couldnt you just play in them anyways as far as i know every fxopen tournament so far has been won by a korean they dont seem to have a problem doing it when they actually know about a smaller online tournament/are invited.
All of these seem like minor details to hate on korea/ GSL and really i havent seen one person who agrees with xeris who even mentions that they like the GSL they all seem to be GSL haters/ people who dont watch it / dont want to pay for it or stay up for it, wich is understandable but i dont think these people realise how much better the GSL is in terms of production , player quality , the fact that it is a live ongoing league, the prize pool (2 and a half gsl's happen over the course of an NASL gsl's have approximately 125k prize pool meaning the prize pool is essentially 4 times as big as the NASL). Honestly there are so many benifits to going to korea now with the MLG exchange program and the fact that the GSL has changed their format so you as a foreigner will know if you are in the up and down matches within 5 days after it starts means it isnt such a big commitment anymore not to mention the fact that it is all expenses paid courtesy of GSL.
Incontrol (who didnt have a team or practice partners out in korea just idra and a few friends the same people you would probably have access to as a foreigner in korea minus idra) said that his 3 weeks in korea was where he had improved the most in his whole career and that 3 weeks in korea where equal to several months of practice (he made have said 6 months but it was at least 3) back in NA.
Xeris get your facts straight please it totally sucks that you wont update this post as people keep posting and agreeing with you on points that arent even valid like "yea gsl sucks why dont they give seed to code s from MLG" things along those lines where people are agreeing with the bad information you posted and most likely drawing their conclusions from your post, was your goal really to make a bunch of people hate the GSL, i dont think so i think you were trying to explain why you dont think going to korea is valid for foreigners anymore (although i dont agree with yoou i see where your coming from i guess) but somehow fromm yor posts spawned many many gsl hate posts within it. Someone in your position shouldnt want to discredit a league.
How did you feel when people were spewing hate about the NASL and coming to their own conclusions about formats even after you guys changed the format and hating on things that werent even set it stone(just like the gsl format wasnt set in stone they had mentioned it was going to change days before you made this post and then you go on to attack the format and they change it to be much much more appealing for foreigners a day or so later), it didnt feel good and im sure you wouldnt want the same thing for the GSL.
Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
On May 24 2011 05:10 Blasphemi wrote: GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers.
The good thing is that MLG winners are (up to now) all more or less code S worthy if you look the history. (idra, jinro, nani, kiwi, huk) So we can expect that the foreigners that will win their code S spot throught MLG won't be ridiculous
On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote: Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
I remember at least a post on TL (perhaps in this very thread) from Morrow (don't quote me on this). I guess they talked about it in sotg too, but I don't clearly remember. The thing I don't understand about this is, all these guys are around 20 year olds. I remember when I was 20, I dreamed to travel and I can't even imagine me refusing a 1 month all expanses paid trip to Korea at this time. And it's certainly not bunk beds that would have stopped me :D
On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote: Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen.
Agreed, white people are too lazy/decadent and the asians put in all the hard work.
Well, it's not simply because the Koreans put in more "work"; it's that they have a better environment to work in, what with the team houses and just that general atmosphere that encourages hard work. I mean, I personally have no issues sitting down and playing SC2 for ten hours a day (or rather, I would have no issue with it if I weren't so prone to eyestrain after around three to four hours of straight playing), but there's no way I can get even half as good as the Korean pros if the only things I have going for me are my keyboard, mouse, and these forums. (And maybe my Asian blood. Lol.) But that's kind of just how it'll go, until we begin setting up actual team houses with actual practice regiments around here.
I'm a believer that motivation should come from WITHIN. I find it really pathetic that people still try and use the "Koreans have a better environment" argument. We've all seen their team houses, we've all seen them crammed 4-6 people per room living in bunk beds. They gave up a lot for this "better environment" work environment.
TLO's pro house could easily fit a lot more people too if they wanted to, but they DONT WANT TO.
Foreign players haven't been able to set up team houses yet partially because a) they don't want to leave home and b) if they could/or did want to leave home, they don't want to live in such conditions like Korean team houses. So what happens when you have people being picky about living arrangements? You have a much higher barrier to entry to set up a team house because you need to find a MUCH larger place for everyone to have their own room etc etc., leading to much higher overhead costs per individual.
The Koreans aren't only putting in "more hours" a day, but basically giving up personal space, and a comfortable living arrangement to be cramped with other people. It looks "fun" but after a while, I guarantee sleeping in bunk beds and sharing 2 bathrooms amongst 10 people isn't so fun.
Maybe this is what it takes, maybe it takes living all together in one apartment/house, working together all day, but that takes sacrifices too. If people aren't willing to make that sacrifice then they shouldn't complain and say "Koreans have a better environment."
S-Korea is a tiny country with a huge population density and almost every single SC2 related event takes place in or near Seoul. That alone is a huge advantage when it comes to setting up team houses.
Events outside of Korea are much more spread out and most teams have players from different regions. Even if every single NA player lived in the US, that is still 96 times larger than Korea. Sweden alone is 4 times the size of Korea. How many teams do you want to set up in Sweden? How about Germany?
The foreign teams can't just replicate the Korean team house format because their environment doesn't allow it. It just wouldn't be practical.
On May 23 2011 16:21 0neder wrote: Foreigners can whine about a Korean problem all they want, and the longer they do it, the further Koreans will pull away in the talent/skill level race because of their hard work and training regimen.
Agreed, white people are too lazy/decadent and the asians put in all the hard work.
Well, it's not simply because the Koreans put in more "work"; it's that they have a better environment to work in, what with the team houses and just that general atmosphere that encourages hard work. I mean, I personally have no issues sitting down and playing SC2 for ten hours a day (or rather, I would have no issue with it if I weren't so prone to eyestrain after around three to four hours of straight playing), but there's no way I can get even half as good as the Korean pros if the only things I have going for me are my keyboard, mouse, and these forums. (And maybe my Asian blood. Lol.) But that's kind of just how it'll go, until we begin setting up actual team houses with actual practice regiments around here.
I'm a believer that motivation should come from WITHIN. I find it really pathetic that people still try and use the "Koreans have a better environment" argument. We've all seen their team houses, we've all seen them crammed 4-6 people per room living in bunk beds. They gave up a lot for this "better environment" work environment.
TLO's pro house could easily fit a lot more people too if they wanted to, but they DONT WANT TO.
Foreign players haven't been able to set up team houses yet partially because a) they don't want to leave home and b) if they could/or did want to leave home, they don't want to live in such conditions like Korean team houses. So what happens when you have people being picky about living arrangements? You have a much higher barrier to entry to set up a team house because you need to find a MUCH larger place for everyone to have their own room etc etc., leading to much higher overhead costs per individual.
The Koreans aren't only putting in "more hours" a day, but basically giving up personal space, and a comfortable living arrangement to be cramped with other people. It looks "fun" but after a while, I guarantee sleeping in bunk beds and sharing 2 bathrooms amongst 10 people isn't so fun.
Maybe this is what it takes, maybe it takes living all together in one apartment/house, working together all day, but that takes sacrifices too. If people aren't willing to make that sacrifice then they shouldn't complain and say "Koreans have a better environment."
S-Korea is a tiny country with a huge population density and almost every single SC2 related event takes place in or near Seoul. That alone is a huge advantage when it comes to setting up team houses.
Events outside of Korea are much more spread out and most teams have players from different regions. Even if every single NA player lived in the US, that is still 96 times larger than Korea. Sweden alone is 4 times the size of Korea. How many teams do you want to set up in Sweden? How about Germany?
The foreign teams can't just replicate the Korean team house format because their environment doesn't allow it. It just wouldn't be practical.
Hmmm I'm sorry, I really don't think your point is valid. Why? Sponsors as is, are already paying to have all the members of a team flown to various events across the United States, such as MLG and such, which right now is I THINK, the only live event in the US anyways. So getting to and from events isn't a problem
Events outside of Korea are much more spread out and most teams have players from different regions. Even if every single NA player lived in the US, that is still 96 times larger than Korea. Sweden alone is 4 times the size of Korea. How many teams do you want to set up in Sweden? How about Germany?
Again, what does size of the country have anything to do with anything? As mentioned earlier, sponsors pay for teams to send their players to live events such as MLG. Everything else in the US (NASL, Zotac, IPL, or whatever) is all online ANYWAYS. I don't see what difference that makes to have everyone move together. Once again it's a commitment thing. I really don't see how much it costs to live rent a small house/ small apartment in the US, where property prices aside from New York, are depressed right now. All it takes is for people to move from their individual apartments (or out of home) and get the funds to rent somewhere to move together. Hell, each individual player can buy their own ticket to be honest. I really don't see the problem that you mention being an issue at all, aside from some of the gamers who are still in school, but for the ones who are done and are doing this professionally, it takes a leap of faith and commitment to move somewhere together and I don't think people are willing to do that yet.
On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote: Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
It's been mentioned before by a lot of the foreigners that they don't enjoy living with multiple people in the same room. Everything else may not be cramped, but I guess the sleeping arrangements are. I remember Morrow mentioning it, i THINK TLO, and some other people have voiced before that living together in the same room with other people with no privacy was definitely a negative factor to living in Korea in the team house environment.
I really don't hold it against people for not liking it, it really isn't that great of an environment to live in. But the fact is, it shows that this environment really does produce results, so if foreigners aren't ready to make that big of a commitment, then I think it's natural that we expect the Korea/Rest of the World gap to possibly continue to expand.
On May 24 2011 05:10 Blasphemi wrote: GOM has bent over backwards to get foreigners into the GSL. A foreigner has a far easier route in than a Korean does. If foreign players don't want to work hard to become top of Code S and would rather play Zotac's every week that's cool, but don't whine that you don't get a free ride into Code S when Koreans themselves have to go through the most grueling of qualifiers.
The good thing is that MLG winners are (up to now) all more or less code S worthy if you look the history. (idra, jinro, nani, kiwi, huk) So we can expect that the foreigners that will win their code S spot throught MLG won't be ridiculous
On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote: Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
I remember at least a post on TL (perhaps in this very thread) from Morrow (don't quote me on this). I guess they talked about it in sotg too, but I don't clearly remember. The thing I don't understand about this is, all these guys are around 20 year olds. I remember when I was 20, I dreamed to travel and I can't even imagine me refusing a 1 month all expanses paid trip to Korea at this time. And it's certainly not bunk beds that would have stopped me :D
Totally agree im 23 and regardless of the seed in the GSL getting an all expenses paid trip to a foreign country (especially one as interesting as south korea) seems like a huge opportunity and it would be a shame to see foreigners rejecting such a great opportunity. Also there isnt NEARLY as many people staying in the gom house as the korean team houses and its about the same size as most of them so regardless of weather you have to share a room or not your going to have alot more personal space then most koreans living in a team house. Have you seen the slayers house even boxer sleeps in a bunk bed, he obviously doesnt have too he could live with his girlfriend or rent his own place (god knows he has enough money) but he wants to live and thrive in that environment. I can just imagine him and MMA sleeping beside each other discussing strategies before they fall asleep(their beds are right beside each other) probably the reason why MMA is soo good hahaha.
Also with the new format you finish up the round of 16 and the round of 32 in 4 or 5 days depending on your group so if you dont like it there and you dont get through your groups you can leave less than a week after you got there and go back to do your thing in the foreign scene i mean its all expenses paid so i dont see any disadvantage to trying your luck in Code for 4-5 days. To be honest though i would want to stay for at least a week more if i got knocked out early just to see the sights, you will still beable to play in your online tournaments as well, look at the NASL standing 4 koreans and sen in the top 10, it obviously hasnt hindered their ability to win too much. If you make it through to the up and down matches (you will know within 4-5 days after the gsl starts wich is nice loving the new format) then you have ample time to prepare for the up and down matches and you stay in korea for another 2 weeks not a huge deal , 3 weeks in a foreign country isnt really a huge commitment at all i go on a 2 month vacation to europe almost every year and it doesnt feel like a huge commitment and its not all expenses paid and i dont have the luxury of having a place to live set up for me already. Obviously for some pro gamers it might be hard if they have prior arrangements for things in their countries, but in terms of online tournaments you can still participate in most of them if you want to and you have an awesome opportunity to compete in the GSL with the best players in the world.
I think it would be foolish for players to not take advantage of the MLG exchange program, at least in sweden judging fromm the amount of pro's that participated in the RAKAKA road to korea tournament it seems there are many players who would like a shot at code A. So hopefully our north american boys feel the same way, id love to see Kiwi , Naniwa Seth etc get a shot at code a.
Also i think jinro should be going to columbus i really hope he wins to regain his rightful spot in code S, would be a huge burden off of his back!
On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote: Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont.
On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote: Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont.
Eh, it's not that the Korean kids are "culturally" more accustomed to the tiny living spaces. It's more like people who have been living in highly populated cities with ridiculously expensive land costs (Seoul, Manhattan, etc.) are more generally accustomed to smaller living spaces. I can tell you that most Korean kids who live with their family get a room of their own or they share a room with one other sibling just like the kids in the western cultures do.
On May 25 2011 21:15 Deadeight wrote: Interesting read! Thanks, learnt something.
I guess these posts aren't going to stop until the mods edit the OP since Xeris seems to have no intention of doing so.
On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote: Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont.
Eh, it's not that the Korean kids are "culturally" more accustomed to the tiny living spaces. It's more like people who have been living in highly populated cities with ridiculously expensive land costs (Seoul, Manhattan, etc.) are more generally accustomed to smaller living spaces. I can tell you that most Korean kids who live with their family get a room of their own or they share a room with one other sibling just like the kids in the western cultures do.
On May 25 2011 21:15 Deadeight wrote: Interesting read! Thanks, learnt something.
I guess these posts aren't going to stop until the mods edit the OP since Xeris seems to have no intention of doing so.
=( its pretty sad all the people that are "learning something" because alot of the information is wrong and people just dont know better they will just generally trust what xeris says, it sucks and your right it wont change until we get a mod edit, they put it in the spotlight they should edit it.
I find the spotlight description pretty hilarious "an illuminating post from someone in the loop" for someone in the loop he is quite out of the loop =/
On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote: Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont.
Eh, it's not that the Korean kids are "culturally" more accustomed to the tiny living spaces. It's more like people who have been living in highly populated cities with ridiculously expensive land costs (Seoul, Manhattan, etc.) are more generally accustomed to smaller living spaces. I can tell you that most Korean kids who live with their family get a room of their own or they share a room with one other sibling just like the kids in the western cultures do.
On May 25 2011 21:15 Deadeight wrote: Interesting read! Thanks, learnt something.
I guess these posts aren't going to stop until the mods edit the OP since Xeris seems to have no intention of doing so.
=( its pretty sad all the people that are "learning something" because alot of the information is wrong and people just dont know better they will just generally trust what xeris says, it sucks and your right it wont change until we get a mod edit, they put it in the spotlight they should edit it.
I find the spotlight description pretty hilarious "an illuminating post from someone in the loop" for someone in the loop he is quite out of the loop =/
I posted that with the full knowledge that Xeris didn't know about the Code S spot, so is there something else that I've missed?
Regardless of him not knowing, it was a great insight into why pre MLG announcement teams weren't doing it. Into why they don't view Code A in general as worth it. Into the issue of not giving enough prior warning about the tournament. On top of this, what about players not going to MLG or not winning MLGs, there's only one Code S spot per MLG.
Because he didn't know about the Code S spot does not mean all his reasons prior to it are suddenly changed. It does not mean anything changes, except that now if you win MLG you get a code S spot. It affects like one section of a long post.
Well, I guess Xeris main point is that moving to Korea just for Code A isn't wise financially and that he thinks it's too hard for foreign players to advance through Code A, the up-and-down matches into Code S. Regarding the practise, why can't the players in the team house organize themselves (or somebody else abroad can do that for them, you don't need to be in the house to do that) and make a practise schedule like a korean team house?
On May 24 2011 22:26 HolyArrow wrote: Out of curiosity, where was it mentioned that foreign players actually have a problem with cramped living conditions? If that's true, I find that just a bit ridiculous, and, honestly, kind of embarrassing for the foreign scene as a whole. The Korean team houses I saw honestly look great to me. Sure, they're a bit cramped, but does it really matter? It's not like you're going to be roller skating indoors or something... you're probably going to be playing Starcraft nearly all day so who cares? It's hard to believe that some people stubbornly uphold such high (and unreasonable) standards.
The Korean KIDS (and they are still teenagers when they move into a pro house usually) all come from the same culture. They are used to these tiny living spaces from their childhood. All of the people from other countries are not used to it and they have different cultures / traditions / ways of doing things, so it is going to be MUCH harder for them to fit in. If you are living in enough space to evade people you "have a problem with" / "dont really understand in their behaviour" it is much easier to adapt, but in Korean conditions you are forced to fit in. Some manage that, but I think most wont.
Those KIDS are young living without their parents (in many cases) doing a damn good job in the GSL. The ADULTS that are playing for EU/NA should not only be able to adapt, but should easily fit in even if you cannot speak the language you CAN communicate. Sure they're used to smaller living conditions, but the rooms aren't designed for "little people" and it also isn't like we're sending in the Giant from Jack and the Bean Stalk to live in Korea. Though I have heard things about Idra not necessarily getting the best practice, but he is also actually BM and was also actually a weaker player, so I could see why that would wind up the case.
In any case though this thread and the other one are both getting too much playtime. If you don't like the deal don't fucking go. If you think it is a good idea (perhaps naniwa if he wins this MLG which will make him code s) then get there when you can. There is no actual problem with Korea. There may be a problem with those who write about problems in Korea. (see the funny?)
It's way too difficult to live the Korean life unless you are in Code S. The journey to qualify for Code S is not worth the time and energy it would take to have players live there. Yes, GOM has a "foreign" house, so players wouldn't have to worry about housing, but there are so many other factors to consider: acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. A player who doesn't have good practice partners or schedules will not be successful in Korea. The GOM house doesn't provide this. The house is made available, and then players are left to their own devices to practice.
Most of the Korean pro houses are full -- I know because when discussing sending Fnatic players to Korea, the major problem was where/how would the players get good training. We looked into moving into pro houses, but most are full. Spending a lot of money to send people to live in Korea just to practice on the Korean ladder is not productive.
So I asked this in the other thread too, but since this thread seems more involved, I'll ask it here. - How exactly do you expect GOM to provide "good practice partners" to these foreigners? - What good practice partners did teams like Slayers and MVP have when they first started? - Why are you saying the foreigners would have to practice on the Korean ladder themselves? Are they incapable of practicing with each other? or are you implying the foreigners aren't good enough of practice partners for each other? - What is so hard about scheduling the practice hours? Is it really a problem of not having a the schedule or is it more of that foreigners are unwilling to follow and accept harsh training schedules like the Koreans?
The bottom line is, you can "potentially" earn more in Korea than anywhere else. I think someone else pointed out in the other thread, that just from staying in Code S (and get knocked out in the ro32 every month), you would earn more money than getting 4th place and below at MLG.
The way I see it is, you're pretty much just embarrassing yourself, and the foreigner community, to try and come up with every little excuse you can think of in hopes that GOM will accommodate you more than they already are, when in reality they're already doing (and did) way more than enough.
The harsh truth, and most of these team managers/sponsors know, is that most foreigners won't make it far into the GSL; and THIS is the main reason why you guys aren't sending your players over. I'm pretty sure no foreign teams would hesitate to send their players even if just half the players they send can make it into top 4-8 in Code S consistently.
There is no "Game" gene in the DNA. The difference is the skill level between the foreigners and the Korean is in their culture, mindset, attitude, and structures. The foreigners just have to give up their individualist mindset, lay off the blames, stop the complaining attitude, and work hard and grow together as a group like every other Korean teams out there. This is not a "Korea problem", this is more of a "Foreigner Problem"
It's way too difficult to live the Korean life unless you are in Code S. The journey to qualify for Code S is not worth the time and energy it would take to have players live there. Yes, GOM has a "foreign" house, so players wouldn't have to worry about housing, but there are so many other factors to consider: acclimating to culture, time zone, and most importantly, practice. A player who doesn't have good practice partners or schedules will not be successful in Korea. The GOM house doesn't provide this. The house is made available, and then players are left to their own devices to practice.
Most of the Korean pro houses are full -- I know because when discussing sending Fnatic players to Korea, the major problem was where/how would the players get good training. We looked into moving into pro houses, but most are full. Spending a lot of money to send people to live in Korea just to practice on the Korean ladder is not productive.
So I asked this in the other thread too, but since this thread seems more involved, I'll ask it here. - How exactly do you expect GOM to provide "good practice partners" to these foreigners? - What good practice partners did teams like Slayers and MVP have when they first started? - Why are you saying the foreigners would have to practice on the Korean ladder themselves? Are they incapable of practicing with each other? or are you implying the foreigners aren't good enough of practice partners for each other? - What is so hard about scheduling the practice hours? Is it really a problem of not having a the schedule or is it more of that foreigners are unwilling to follow and accept harsh training schedules like the Koreans?
The bottom line is, you can "potentially" earn more in Korea than anywhere else. I think someone else pointed out in the other thread, that just from staying in Code S (and get knocked out in the ro32 every month), you would earn more money than getting 4th place and below at MLG.
The way I see it is, you're pretty much just embarrassing yourself, and the foreigner community, to try and come up with every little excuse you can think of in hopes that GOM will accommodate you more than they already are, when in reality they're already doing (and did) way more than enough.
The harsh truth, and most of these team managers/sponsors know, is that most foreigners won't make it far into the GSL; and THIS is the main reason why you guys aren't sending your players over. I'm pretty sure no foreign teams would hesitate to send their players even if just half the players they send can make it into top 4-8 in Code S consistently.
There is no "Game" gene in the DNA. The difference is the skill level between the foreigners and the Korean is in their culture, mindset, attitude, and structures. The foreigners just have to give up their individualist mindset, lay off the blames, stop the complaining attitude, and work hard and grow together as a group like every other Korean teams out there. This is not a "Korea problem", this is more of a "Foreigner Problem"
That was me who pointed that out , but yea i totally agree, with the new MLG exchange program there will be at least 4-5 foreigners in the Gom house + torch, There is no reason why foreingers cant take some initiative to maybe invite huk and jinro over and get them to bring some of the OGS guys, or why the cant ask torch if its possible that one of them tag along to the ST house each day, or set something like that up, Im not saying all these things are for sure possible but certainly none of them are impossible.
Gisado lives in the Gom house i beleive as well, why cant you ask him if its possible to set up some kind of practice event once or twice a week where koreans can come and practice with the foreigners in the house, there is obviously things you can do to make your practice environment ideal. I dont really see what the issue is here beyond xeris and fams just complaining about basically the fact that they assume a foreigner will be lazy and do nothing to better their practice environment while they are in korea. Koreans would probably love a chance to practice with foreigners here and there, i dont see why something couldnt be set up, and im sure gom would be happy to try and accomodate them they seem to be doing everything that is in their control to help foreigners get to korea these days.
What did korea do to you Fnatic?
Edit: also with the gom house, whats stopping a bunch of foreigners from going over there and staying in the gom house and starting their own team (even if its just for korea they can still be fromm different teams) get enough players there to have a decent practice environment and work towards getting enough players in gsl to participate in the teamleague even. Something like this could work if it was organized and the players teams where down for it. Im not saying this is realistic for everyone , but with the MLG exchange program now in place, the players who won could bring a teammate or 2 and try and start their own real foreigner house with enough players to actually field a team.
Pro players need to take naniwa as a prime example on how to be a true pro player. Naniwa doesn't care, he just wants to play the best and the best is in korea then he going there. He said in sotg that win or lose mlg he will definetly be planning to go to Korea because he believes the best are there.
Most of the foreigners are already tied with something and their ambitions lie in the west and not in the mindset of being the best player the world can possibly see. This kind of thinking will always make korea #1 because no one is sizing up to the task of challenging the best players in the world for their own personal reasons.
On May 27 2011 07:43 Raid wrote: Pro players need to take naniwa as a prime example on how to be a true pro player. Naniwa doesn't care, he just wants to play the best and the best is in korea then he going there. He said in sotg that win or lose mlg he will definetly be planning to go to Korea because he believes the best are there.
Most of the foreigners are already tied with something and their ambitions lie in the west and not in the mindset of being the best player the world can possibly see. This kind of thinking will always make korea #1 because no one is sizing up to the task of challenging the best players in the world for their own personal reasons.
Unfortunately pro-gamers have to eat. If their team says no they won't pay for them to go out to Korea, they just can't afford to go. I think quite a lot comes down to teams and not players quite often.
Some very valid points here, thanks for the writeup, Xeris! Your two suggestions are very apropos to the situation foreigner progamers find themselves in. From invitations to advance notice, those suggestions would go a long way towards making the world tournament that GSL hosts contain more people from the world outside Korea.
I think Code A is the biggest problem. A month long for a tiny prize pool. I really wish they would about triple that prize pool. Make being a Code A player worth it, make it a viable option for people that go over with the intention of being a Code A player for quite some time. Code S is way too exclusive too be a viable option for the middle or the road foreign pro to shoot for, no matter what incentives you give them.
A big issue with playing Code A online would be latency, it seems like alot of the online tournaments that Korean players participate in they're constantly having to deal with lag. Again, I think the entry process, the having to "play" your way into Code A, is part of what makes the GSL such a prestigious tournament.
If some post this factually wrong was posted against any tournament but GSL, mods would've removed it by now. BS.
If the GSL doesn't want to highlight mediocre Koreans, why should they help out mediocre foreigners? When the NASL tried to go out of its way to exclude Koreans but xeris got caught? When the NASL was about how MUCH artificial limitation of koreans there should be? GSL hopefully will accommodate tip top dedicated foreigners like naniwa, maybe even some favoritism, but in now way should they accommodate the mediocre players that have said they don't want to go to Korea, like Tyler. Good news is that people like kas and thorzain have seemed to get a good amount of Korean fans from the TSL.
On May 28 2011 01:28 Rasun wrote: I think Code A is the biggest problem. A month long for a tiny prize pool. I really wish they would about triple that prize pool. Make being a Code A player worth it, make it a viable option for people that go over with the intention of being a Code A player for quite some time. Code S is way too exclusive too be a viable option for the middle or the road foreign pro to shoot for, no matter what incentives you give them.
Well GSL code a or code s is not for middle of the road players, especially code s its for the best of the best.
people need to stop looking at code A like it's supposed to be the goal... code A is merely the means to achieve the end goal. Code S. It's like saying the TSL qualifier tournaments didn't pay enough to it's winners, when that wasn't the point, the TSL3 was the end result of those qualifier tournaments, code A is the qualifier for Code S.
On May 28 2011 02:47 sleigh bells wrote: If some post this factually wrong was posted against any tournament but GSL, mods would've removed it by now. BS.
If the GSL doesn't want to highlight mediocre Koreans, why should they help out mediocre foreigners? When the NASL tried to go out of its way to exclude Koreans but xeris got caught? When the NASL was about how MUCH artificial limitation of koreans there should be? GSL hopefully will accommodate tip top dedicated foreigners like naniwa, maybe even some favoritism, but in now way should they accommodate the mediocre players that have said they don't want to go to Korea, like Tyler. Good news is that people like kas and thorzain have seemed to get a good amount of Korean fans from the TSL.
Fucking XERIS of all people...
He'll do anything to make his team appear to be the premiere team of the world. It's rather disgusting. The ironic part is that I like Sen and to a lesser extent TT1 quite a bit, but thanks to Xeris' actions I've just dismissed that team and organization as a whole. It's a caustic cancer on this community.
On May 28 2011 09:00 teamsolid wrote: Why is this article STILL highlighted?
I have no idea it should have never been highlighted to begin with, the spotlight description says "an illuminating post fromm someone in the loop" for someone in the loop he is quite out of the loop with all his false facts.
Also its bad for teamliquid to have this spotlighted it kind of suggests they support what is said in this article regardless of this "The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff."
well not neccesarily but if its spotlighted it means they think people should read it because it possibly has some good points. It just looks bad now though especially because its outdated since this post there have been numerous changes to the GSL (format change, mercenary foreigners in the teamleague responses from Mr. Chae) It seems MR. Chae was quite distraught about the aggresive nature of this post.
On May 28 2011 15:26 cheesemaster wrote: Also its bad for teamliquid to have this spotlighted it kind of suggests they support what is said in this article regardless of this "The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff."
well not neccesarily but if its spotlighted it means they think people should read it because it possibly has some good points. It just looks bad now though especially because its outdated since this post there have been numerous changes to the GSL (format change, mercenary foreigners in the teamleague responses from Mr. Chae) It seems MR. Chae was quite distraught about the aggresive nature of this post.
Or perhaps one of the staff members thought it should be discussed. The mods are by no means yes men. In fact, lots of the staff don't necessarily agree with what other staff members write. Intrigue's article comes to mind, as it is relatively still fresh. As a writer, you should always provoke thought. This is why it is spotlighted. I don't agree with the title either (as I've mentioned before), but still... you want people to view your thread you might as well use something to catch their attention and it did.
EPT
<3
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