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On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote:
He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
"IdrA is not a good caster"
How do you misinterpret that!?
Totalbiscuit isn't doing this to help IdrA, if he did he would tell IdrA in private, he is simply doing this to discredit IdrA because a significant amount of people (enough to warrant an article) prefer IdrA's casting style over that of his own.
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Totalbiscuit isn't doing this to help IdrA, if he did he would tell IdrA in private, he is simply doing this to discredit IdrA because a significant amount of people (enough to warrant an article) prefer IdrA's casting style over that of his own. Hello Anti Idra Conspiracy.Firstly, let's use an analogy. Imagine a basketball, football, whatever sport game; let's pick football for the sake of it. The score is 42-3 and there are 2 minutes left on the clock. Do you REALLY want some commentator to be saying "the other team has a chance..."... No. Personally, that's just ridiculous, and I think a lot of people would agree here. Yes, but that's not his point. What he said is to never, ever, say "whatever the losing does, the other team will win, so the match is as good as over." Which is be even more ridiculous that "maybe the loser has a chance".
"XXX clearly has the upper hand" -> exciting. "gg, YYY won't be able to come back from this" -> then why should I watch?
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On May 13 2011 18:18 Keone wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Completely (and respectfully) disagree with TB.
But my first reaction to this article is: are you KIDDING me?!?! So when a game is obviously over, TB is stating (undeniably), that the commentator should act like its not. As a viewer, I would get SO pissed if I knew that this "expert", this person who is supposed to know something about the game and therefore is commentating on this, is bullshitting me and telling me LIES. TB literally states that its the commentator's job to make the 'gg' the climax, and therefore should keep excitement up until that point... by acting like the game is still competitive.
TB makes an argument here that relies on pretty rhetoric without base and arguments without substance. He makes a pretty argument that different viewers watch the games for different reasons, and lists a few. Yet at the same exact time, he assumes that he knows WHAT everyone wants. And not only do I think he is wrong in assuming that, I disagree with WHAT he assumes.
Firstly, let's use an analogy. Imagine a basketball, football, whatever sport game; let's pick football for the sake of it. The score is 42-3 and there are 2 minutes left on the clock. Do you REALLY want some commentator to be saying "the other team has a chance..."... No. Personally, that's just ridiculous, and I think a lot of people would agree here.
My personal opinion is this. Commentators are not simply people who "hype" up the audience and make it exciting until the final moments of the game. Those people are commonly called "cheerleaders". Commentators have a much, much larger role, and a very symbolic one at that. They are, to the audience, the figureheads, the link between the audience and the sport. In a bad analogy, they would be the bridge that separates the professional world, and our computer screens and TV sets. I don't want this bridge to be a rickety, untrustworthy bridge through which I get all my information. I want this bridge to be solid, truthful, honest, straight, and trustworthy, so that I KNOW I'm getting the truth, and so that I hope I can learn a bit about the game, even if I don't play it. That's another place I disagree with TB. Everyone who watches the game, regardless of whether they own the game or know how to play it or not... they want to know how its played. Do you watch football to say "oh yay a flying ball! cool!"? Even new people watch football and try and learn how the rules are played, and maybe try to learn the complex strategies behind the sport. Why do you think all these parents and kids sit at home and yell at their TV's, "they should have done this move! or that move!" when they clearly know very little about what's actually going on? It's human nature. We want to know what's going on.
So, TB, I respectfully state my view that some of your arguments are without merit here. And I'm sure you had some reason, but to me, your "IdrA is a bad caster" is clearly an attempt to draw attention and therefore is in really poor taste. As a commentator, you should be ashamed of yourself for speaking like that about a fellow commentator, even if the points you make are true, e.g. IdrA is not a very good/exciting speaker.
TB never said "IdrA is a bad caster", he said quite the opposite. He _did_ mention that IdrA lacks experience as caster, which noone can deny, but he also said that IdrA can give very good insight into the game.
About not calling gg prematurely... it's mostly about how the casters say it:
"Game is over, Player 1 won" - bad
"There is no way Player 2 can win this" - bad
"Player 2 is in a dire situation, he has to do a miracle to get back into the game" - good
"Player 2 is far behind, i can only wonder what he has planned to get back" - good
"Player 2 barely holds on, falling behind every second, i don't know how he can survive the next attack" - ok
Saying gg before a player left is also insulting to the players. If the game would be unwinnable, they would leave, if they don't leave, they at least have a plan that gives them even a tiny chance to get back.
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Oh boy! Lots and lots of people even didn't read TB's full comment and are talking so much crap!
Read the comment before posting it's easy if you try.
On topic: I think TB is right. IdrA has everythingt he needs to be an excepcional commentator but because the lack of experience he is still missing some key points. Yesterday afternoon (EU) I tuned in NASL Sheth vs Kiwikaki and watching it was really boring (due to monotone tone of voices mainly) that I started to do something else (browsing TL ^^) with the stream in the background. At some point I hear the casters calling GG. And they called again. I check the stream the game is still going so I head back to TL. GG is called again and again!
I remember of think to myself "Damn thats alot of GG's for a single game that even didn't finished."
To sum it up: the casting wasn't bad by any chance but there is some points that need some work or else the games will become dull and the viewers will shift to other streams and VODs because nowadays there is plenty of good alternatives.
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On May 13 2011 18:24 evsky wrote:
His analytical abilites are so good he can be excused from putting in passion and emotion imo, TB has it right in most parts but i feel that most of it is excusable.
No, having casters/commentators that completely lack in an area is not a good thing, because as a caster you are meant to direct the audience. Listening to a monotone during a game limits the excitement buildup - compare to Tastosis, korean commentators, etc.
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Hiding behind terminology to give criticism. The problem is that once somebody writes something that has more than 2000 words and without mistakes. Suddenly it becomes a good write-up with truth in it.
Idra is "luring" 20.000 to his stream when he commentates. He is a good caster. Probably better than the casters that would fit all the terminology TB provided.
Do you ask me why Idra is a good caster?
Ask his 20.000 viewers.
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While TB does have valid points, I dont think he does take into account how much analytical casters, especially people like IdrA who are pros themselves are valued.
Many people do not watch SC2 for pure entertainment, many watch to also see what they can improve in their own game. Extensive play by play commentary distracts from this by making needless noise for these people.
For example, I do not mind TBs casting at all, and actually almost prefer it when I'm watching games for the sake of watching games, but when I am watching games with the hope of picking something up from them, even with IdrAs faults I will still prefer him over TB, as TBs style in that case is flat out distracting and worthless.
I think part of what makes Artosis and Tasteless so good is that they know when to talk about analysis and when to entertain the audience, they are both very capable analytical casters, and give a lot of insight into the game, at the same time they know when to immediately shut their mouth with the analysis and transition into entertaining/play by play. They analyze unit compositions/economies/potential battle positions before the battle happens, and as soon as the battle actually starts happening they immediately switch into the play by play. Day9 also shares this quality in his casting style.
They also know how to properly commentate a game that is over and pending a gg from a player. Instead of just saying "yeah this is over" over and over and not adding much ala Gretorp/Incontrol style, they analyze and talk about what each player could of potentially done different, and what choices made in the game led to the outcome.
Listening to Artosis/Tasteless cast at times feels like more listening to 2 people watch and discuss the game objectively, trying to think about the game from the perspective of the players themselves. I feel that this is something many caster duos can benefit from.
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I think TB could have worded some parts of that a bit better, cause there are portions of rather sentences of it that can be considered slamming in my opinion and rather unnecessary to mention. Though I don't believe that is what he intended to do in the first place - or at least I hope he didn't intend on doing that.
I enjoy both commentators for different reasons. If I'm tired and just want some entertainment I'd prefer to listen to TB, but if I actually want to learn something from someone better than myself I'd definitely choose Idra over TB. Not that TB would be my first choice when it comes to PbP anyway.
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On May 13 2011 16:15 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote:
TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting. Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I agee, people here don't seem to realise or care what TB's message actually is.
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I think TB has a point. Taking into account the "non playing" part of the viewer is something SOOOO many people in this community forget when they want to make e-sport happen. Having a quiete nerd as a caster won't help casual / non-players to join the community and make e-sport bigger.
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Not a big fan of TB, but what he wrote is right, IMO.
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Idra was a 100 times better caster than totalbiscuit is and it was his first time casting with no training.... he should not teach anything to idra, just lol
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On May 13 2011 18:30 Koshi wrote:
Hiding behind terminology to give criticism. The problem is that once somebody writes something that has more than 2000 words and without mistakes. Suddenly it becomes a good write-up with truth in it.
Idra is "luring" 20.000 to his stream when he commentates. He is a good caster. Probably better than the casters that would fit all the terminology TB provided.
Do you ask me why Idra is a good caster?
Ask his 20.000 viewers.
And you assume all 20,000 of them are there to watch him cast?
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On May 13 2011 18:30 Koshi wrote:
Hiding behind terminology to give criticism. The problem is that once somebody writes something that has more than 2000 words and without mistakes. Suddenly it becomes a good write-up with truth in it.
Idra is "luring" 20.000 to his stream when he commentates. He is a good caster. Probably better than the casters that would fit all the terminology TB provided.
Do you ask me why Idra is a good caster?
Ask his 20.000 viewers.
Most of the 20,000 viewers tune in because they want to see/hear him being BM and telling how bad everyone else is. The rest, like me tune in because there is a good chance to learn something from his play.
Also, if everyone would take time and actually read what TB wrote, you'd realise that it actually all make sense and he raises very valid points in his post.
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Maybe for the average 12 year old WoW player this is true (me 6 years ago) but when you get older and actually UNDERSTAND the game you want someone analytical to explain in depth the small pieces that puts the puzzle together, someone like IdrA
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Idra has WAY too many hardcore fans for this thread to get 18 pages of useless argument -_- TB was nitpicking an article concerning Idra casting, and this thread is nitpicking TB's nitpicking.
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I don't fully agree with this. I consider my self very casual, I watch more games than I play atm. Yet I actually really hate it when a caster is trying to over hype a battle with a 60 supply differential or screams with all of their might GG at the end when it was impending for 10 minutes. If it's a final or something big, yes I understand. I want to always see it how it is, and knowing that critical mistake that lost someone the game is also part of it. Also, totalbiscuit seems to take IdrA quite literally when he says i"ts pretty much gg", he obviously means it would take a lot for the player losing to make come back, which is basically the same thing he said it's ok for casters to convey, in fact when there is a come back its way more exciting to know that the guy was practically doomed a few minutes ago.
However, I agree about the fact that IdrA monotonous, and seems like he's analyzing an old reply that he knows the result of rather than reacting to a live match. He definitely could be more enthusiastic.
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On May 13 2011 17:15 gregnog wrote:
I made a post on that reddit as well...
I cant listen to TB's cookie cutter casting either.
Getty worded it perfectly... basically after you get past silver that simple style of entertainment casting becomes torture to your ears. I can kind of understand where people like TB are coming from when thinking of the super casual and new fans, I guess that is all good. But then criticizing Idra for casting how the majority of this community wants someone to cast is kind of funny. Especially considering how this community has shown you several times already how they feel about you TB.
If this community were the type to enjoy that simple kind of entertainment you put out, they wouldnt be playing Starcraft. At least that is how I see it. They would be playing LoL, WoW, or watching Pokemon or something.
This is not sportscenter.
Going to overlook you talking for the "community" or saying that only "super casual and new fans" enjoy watching and listening to games cast by TB.
Yeah Idra is great for some gamers who sit at their computer wanting to learn from every cast they watch:
+ Show Spoiler +
But he wouldn't be suited to larger events where people go for entertainment. How many poeple at large events do you see with notepads, most of the them want to see the players they root for and to get excited whilst watching a game they love:
+ Show Spoiler +
There is room for all different types of casters in SC2 and if people want SC2 to grow and attract as wide a variety of spectators as possible we should probably not be openly trying to shoot down or even overtly criticise those who do it. This goes for TB as well in a way, yeah he wants to express his opinion but is creating this kind of drama (even unintentionally) good or even useful? Maybe I missed IdrA asking for casting advice.
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all you have to do is listen to TB cast 1 game to realize how legitimate his opinions on the art of casting are
rofl
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