I'm rather disappointed that this article did very little to substantiate it's claims, but allow me to try and provide a counterpoint anyway.
IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion. He is however, an analyst of exceptional skill and calibre, easily one of the best in the business. He should be lauded for this however the distinction must be made there.
IdrA is a colour-commentator. He fits all the criteria, he is analytical, he is there to provide background and extensive game knowledge, based on experience as a current/ex-player. He is there to fill in time when the play-by-play commentator is not talking and as a knowledgeable resource to back up the play-by-play commentator, who is more often than not, not a professional player/coach/ex-player, but a professional broadcaster.
Of the listed commentators in the IPL, there was 1 colour commentator (Painuser) and 4 play-by-play commentators (HD, DJWheat, Catspyjamas and myself). This was in itself a problem and is not the correct setup, something that all the casters have acknowledged publically and are doing their utmost to resolve (to the point where Apollo may be moving in with me temporarily if we are chosen to cast IPL 2, doing all my assigned matchs with in-studio co-commentary).
Now onto the main point of this article, the idea of 'telling it like it is'. This is fairly ironic in itself, since casters frequently get criticised for doing such shallow things as telling people what's going on. Half the time it seems some hardcore viewers have an Inception mindset "WE HAVE TO GO DEEPER!", demanding almost precognitive casting and metaphysical insight. Lasers may also be involved.
It is not the play-by-play casters job to tell you when a game is over, it is the play-by-play casters job to heighten tension, provoke emotion and increase the viewer's excitement. You cannot do that by calling a game before it ends. The climax of a game should be the GG, regardless of whether or not it's blatantly too late. You call a GG 10 minutes before it actually happens, even if it's absolutely the right call, then you stop engaging a good portion of your viewers, specifically the majority of the viewerbase, the casuals who are there for entertainment. In-depth analysis in sports is generally done post-game, not mid-game. There is definitely space for analysis, plenty of it, but drowning a viewer in 10 mins of in-depth analysis of how Player A fucked up while the game is still going on in the background, will turn off the casual viewer.
I should also point out that it is not dishonest to avoid calling game over before it actually happens. You can without question explain that the situation is very bad for Player A with a wide variety of colourful synonyms and language. However, let us consider the viewing demographic.
Your average master's league player, hell even high diamond, is definitely analytical enough and knowledgeable enough to see when it's over. He does not need to be told that it's over. He will not learn anything from being told that it's over. I refer to this sentence at the end of the article
"Don’t be afraid to tell us when a game is over, or when players aren’t playing like they deserve our attention. Do so, and your audience will only gain a better understanding of the game."
Hardcore players will not learn anything from this. Casual players more often than not, don't WANT to learn anything from this. Different kinds of people watch SC2 for different reasons. SC2 has a substantial viewerbase that doesn't even own the game for god's sake, what do you think they tune in for? It certainly isn't to learn how to play better, they don't play at all. No, they tune in to watch one of the most, if not the most exciting eSport in the world and they expect it to be presented as such. It is impossible to get excited about a game that ended 10 minutes ago, when you've just had the fact rubbed in your face by the casting team. It is possible, if you are a skilled play-by-play caster, to keep the tension up, particularly when there are more casual, less knowledgeable viewers watching. You do not have to lie to them, but you don't have to tell them it's done 10 minutes before the GG either. By all means, have the analyst explain why Player A is in such a bad situation and the decisions that lead him up to this point (although I really think some of that should be saved for post-game commentary, a'la sports), but as far as I'm concerned, calling an early GG is a mortal casting sin and should be avoided at all costs.
Just my two pence folks. It's a nice opinion piece but it lacks perspective on what casting actually is, as well as being from an obviously niche viewpoint which, while it should be catered to without question, is not the only way to look at things, nor even the majority view.
Here is a snip of TB's comment. PLEASE READ THE FULL ARTICLE BEFORE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS. JUST SAYING THAT "LOL TB SAYS IDRA IS A BAD CASTER LOL WILL MAKE YOU LOOK STUPID. Link here
Edit: I failed on this thread, I realize now that my issue is that it's not a TB vs IdrA thing, it's more of a "how should SC2 be cast" type of argument that I really have root with. Casual vs hardcore, action vs strategy type of thing. I just wanted to apologize, because I was wrong. I stand by my point that TB is wrong, but not because IdrA is a good caster, but because I feel like his style is correct for SC2.
Not really a big deal, Idra doesnt have as much casting experience and people dont bring him on to be loud and boisterous. Idra has all the qualities TB doesnt in terms of insight.
Well with a misleading title and one line description of how you feel I recommend you actually think about what Totalbiscuit said.
IdrA is a colour-commentator. He fits all the criteria, he is analytical, he is there to provide background and extensive game knowledge, based on experience as a current/ex-player. He is there to fill in time when the play-by-play commentator is not talking and as a knowledgeable resource to back up the play-by-play commentator, who is more often than not, not a professional player/coach/ex-player, but a professional broadcaster.
Thats not slamming IdrA, thats comparing IdrA to a category in which he is already put in but the vocal minority doesn't really understand the different between Colour and Play by play and the values/advantages of each.
I think anybody trying to say IdrA is an amazing Play by Play poster is a fan boy and probably below average in the intelligence department and Totalbiscuit for Colour commentary is similar (ie. you shouldn't arguing that he can anaylse as effectively as say Day[9] or IdrA).
This isn't IdrA hate its Totalbiscuit trying to debunk the stupid fanboyism that's been shown by trolling him constantly.
For the casual Idra probably isn't a good caster too, to any player playing competitively or something he is amazing. His knowledge is just fantastic and that is why I love when he speaks. He knows what he's talking about unlike most commentators and its very refreshing honestly. Wish there were more casters like him ^_^.
I don't really want to jump on the flame wagon of biscuit yet but that guy seems to like to draw alot of negative attention his way. I would listen to a replay casted by IdrA a hundred times over before having to listen to biscuit even once. That guy doesn't know what the fuck hes talking about, and at the end of the day that's all that matters to me.
I guess this just rubbed me the wrong way, and I don't understand how a guy that got his fanbase from casting WoW videos is going to bash someone who has been part of the starcraft scene since before he uploaded his first youtube video.
Let me just say that I was a fan of TB before he made this leap to SC2, that's how I stumbled on this article. I just don't like his SC2 casting, and find it stupid that he call out a legit caster/player. I was simply curious if I was the only one feeling this way.
I don't know about you guys, but Idra's snide comments are a huge part of why I watch his casting (that and his knowledge, of course). You can pick apart his casting as much as you want, but at the end of the day, Idra's persona, his knowledge, and the fact that he just calls a situation as he sees it without any sugar coating or beating around the bush is part of his appeal to a segment of viewers. Will Idra's casting bring in a wider crowd? probably not, but he's not a full time caster, he's just a player doing some casting on the side.
As for Totalbiscut:
Better get your flamesuit on, Totalbiscut. Considering how much TB is hated by this community, this will not end well.
TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
IdrA isn't a caster. And I PREFER the "yeah it's gg" as opposed to "NOW I WONDER IF THE 7 SCV TERRAN CAN REPRODUCE FAST ENOUGH TO TAKE ON THE 200/200 TOSS."
TB is a great caster for entertainment purposes as a casual player I would love to listen to him however as a competitive player I want to listen to idra cast games so I can learn how to get better.
What the hell? Could this thread title be any more misleading?
I hope to hell that TB sees this before it gets locked, I have little doubt that will he waste no time in setting the record straight in an extremely entertaining fashion.
Edit: Even more surprising is the number of people who are responding without reading. Is that banworthy?
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
"...And in the Red Trunks in the bottom right corner..." If Total Biscuit is commentating I refuse to watch it or I turn the volume off. It actually will give you brain cancer if you listen. Idra on the other hand, it's such a privilege to hear what he has to say about the games. He has such depth and understanding about Starcraft. I always feel like i'm learning when Idra analyses games.
i'd rather have a quiet, monotone, stumbling but incredibly intelligent person cast than someone who shouts and tells you incorrect things. if tb thinks a big part of casting is telling incorrect things rather than telling it how it is, then i am confused and of a different opinion. im a casual player of sc2 btw.
How is this slamming IdrA in any way? He's saying IdrA is one of the best "analyst", but it would be incorrect in saying IdrA is a good "caster". I agree with this; he is great when there is someone else there to back him up, to cover the meat and bone of SC2 casting while IdrA gives his insight sporadically.
But I can't think of more awkward sc2 casting set up than IdrA trying to cast a game by himself.
IdrA doesn't even want to be a caster, he just does it for w/e. This argument/any argument would only be valid if he cared about being a caster enough to want to actually learn how to do it.
I don't understand why you made the title of this thread so dramatic. It's a pretty objective look at why Idra isn't a play by play commentator and he is spot on. In any sport you never have the ex-pro analytical caster trying to give a play by play because they can't. Also his point about people calling GG early is exactly correct from an entertainment perspective. I'm not a TB fanboi I don't really even know who the guy is except hearing him cast a few IPL's. He isn't saying Idra should never be a caster in any game he is just saying he isn't a play by play commentator.
IdrA is a polarizing figure in SC2 and always creates a lot of attention around him. TotalBiscuit is pretty much an attention whore, I am not surprised at all that he would make these kind of comments in order to bring more attention onto himself.
On a related note, IdrA was a better commentator then Gretorp and InControl (and frankly I enjoy them both quite a bit).
Totalbiscuit is trying to say that there are 2 genres of commentators in sports, the play-by-play caster and the analytical colour-commentator. He gives an example of this by saying that Idra is not good at play-by-play but excellent as an analysis commentator, and that in a casting duo (or trio in the case of korean casting) there needs to be a balance of these 2 attributes. Going on to say that an analysis commentator needs to be backed up by the play-by-play caster to form a good balance.
Maybe try reading the whole thing next time.
Edit: at the time of writing this post the thread title was about TB slaming Idra before it got changed to the current title.
You dislike that Idra explains why the game is already over in a monotone matter? It could be worse, he could just say everything that happens and claim that he knows what is going on between the players in the different colored trunks. He could say that his silver league level of play is simply weak mechanics, instead of stating that he doesn't really know anything to merit speak at all. Maybe some people like in depth analysis, instead of loud yelling about medivac drops.
He doesn't completely slam Idra, since he acknowledges that Idra does fine as the analytical knowledge guy. The problem with NASL casting is the play by play guy, Mr. Gretorp.
i think TB is mad because idra is just randomly casting some? I actually enjoy his casting simply because he actually has some insight as opposed to TB.. who has 0 clue how to actually play the game.
i mean you need two types of casters (read tastosis) where one is the guy that spouts all the stats and strats and the other leads in (TB) but i dont feel TB has much room to speak.
especially since i dont think idra's aspiration is to become a professional caster, it hardly matters if he is a good caster or not. he is a progamer after all...
On May 13 2011 16:12 Swineflew wrote: I guess this just rubbed me the wrong way, and I don't understand how a guy that got his fanbase from casting WoW videos is going to bash someone who has been part of the starcraft scene since before he uploaded his first youtube video.
Because one man got his fanbase by casting and the other got a fanbase by playing, and people who automatically expect the latter to be as good or knowledgeable as the former in the former's business is disrespecting an entire profession. Yes, a profession that exists beyond the scope of Starcraft 2. Everything Total Biscuit said is true or is a good point, and while many people may feel the "it's GG" early on is good, the reality is that by frequenting this site you're most likely not even a casual as he describes. TB is a very good caster, and to disregard his opinion because of blind homage to Idra is doing a disservice to everyone, including Idra, who if he's actually committed to casting (which I don't think he is), would take the advice to heart. How constructive criticism works.
On May 13 2011 16:11 C.W. wrote: Who is totalbiscuit?
A famous, popular, wide-reaching, veteran caster who brings in crowds for watching people play video games.
Edit:
On May 13 2011 16:17 Xeris wrote: IdrA doesn't even want to be a caster, he just does it for w/e. This argument/any argument would only be valid if he cared about being a caster enough to want to actually learn how to do it.
That's what I figured So I actually think TB's rant was a little bizarre in that respect, but according to his video he seemed to be explaining the difference between the two casting roles and his pet peeve.
Im not sure what the whole bashing was. He said idra is monotone and doesnt show emotion, while he however provides excellent analysis. Thats pretty much what I read about idra on 5 different places already on TL. Everyone agrees on it, whats the bashing part?
The last 80% of the post was about something else too, which was kinda interesting.
On May 13 2011 16:12 Swineflew wrote: I guess this just rubbed me the wrong way, and I don't understand how a guy that got his fanbase from casting WoW videos is going to bash someone who has been part of the starcraft scene since before he uploaded his first youtube video.
Let me just say that I was a fan of TB before he made this leap to SC2, that's how I stumbled on this article. I just don't like his SC2 casting, and find it stupid that he call out a legit caster/player. I was simply curious if I was the only one feeling this way.
It rubbed you the wrong way when you thought he was bashing IdrA.
Thats not slamming Idra -_- The title is totally misdirecting
I kinda agree with TB though, Idra has is a baller full of analytical awesome. He knows whats happening at all times and how the match will likely proceed. But he can be monotonous, and doesn't have the flair and excitement in his play-by-plays that other shoutcasters bring to the game
Idra needs to be paired with somebody colourful. Say combine Idra with HD, that would be a good duo of casters
TB outright saying Idra is a bad caster is just taking it to far, he's a different kind of caster, but he's not a bad caster. I prefer Idra over TB (and thats totally not because im a total Idra fanboy >_>). Idra is like Artosis on crack (in the analytical sense), but without the wacky personality
It's funny because neither of them are great casters but it should be appreciated that Totalbiscuit wants Idra to be a better caster. Idra has great insight but it's obvious he's still new to casting and is nervous or cannot smoothly cast as well as many other casters. Where he lacks however doesnt diminish his ability to give even the best of us tidbits of knowledge into how the players are thinking and whether they are making good decisions. Idra's ability to give us that deeper look into the otherwise mysterious cloud of pro player thought is much appreciated.
Totalbiscuit's style is great in terms of play by play. However, just like he says people don't need to be told when it's "GG", people also generally don't need to be told what literally is going on the screen either. Totalbiscuit shines when it comes to using extravegant words to liven up the gameplay, and his spitfire casting also makes the game more enjoyable. But those who don't like him because he provides little analytical depth are right in that thats where his casting stops. Sometimes people just want more out of their SC2 entertainment besides play by play.
One issue with the NASL cast is that other caster. Gretorp is an OK caster but he makes many mistakes and obviously the NASL casting isnt as professional as the IPL casting. When Gretorp was casting with Idra, he often gave Idra little time to analyze, and Idra's analysis was often longer than what people were looking at, so it's difficult to follow unless you really understand the game (as the observer kept going all over the place and not always looking in the "best" places for analytical comment). I still appreciate the guest casting and I even want to say Idra and Gretorp is better than Gretorp and Incontrol. But Gretorp is one of the weakest casters available right now (relative to the exposure).
Ultimately, for all the casters that are out there, they all have their strong points and weaknesses. I honestly don't believe we've seen the best casters out there due to the fact that they aren't getting paid enough to attract the kind of talent and depth that we see in a lot of other sports.
On May 13 2011 16:17 Thoramas wrote: Way to take words out of context.
Totalbiscuit is trying to say that there are 2 genres of commentators in sports, the play-by-play caster and the analytical colour-commentator. He gives an example of this by saying that Idra is not good at play-by-play but excellent as an analysis commentator, and that in a casting duo (or trio in the case of korean casting) there needs to be a balance of these 2 attributes. Going on to say that an analysis commentator needs to be backed up by the play-by-play caster to form a good balance.
Maybe try reading the whole thing next time.
Yeah i agree. I feel for TB now, 1 million Idra fanbois are gonna hate on him since they only read the title before going into a frenzy -.-
Idra is 100% honest during a cast, which is something I respect more than false excitement. Idra is player that happens to be telling us what's going on in a far more deeper manner. Much better then OH BOY HE'S BUILDING SUPPLY DEPOTS
Lol the mods really do act fast. Title change for the win Definitely watch the youtube video of him casting the post for lulz though. It's pretty random
Objectively, I think TB is correct. But IdrA being the character that he is, makes me interested in his opinions far beyond human-made terms like play-by-play caster and color blabla. We get so stuck up in these terms that we tend to forget we made them ourselves in the first place.
In this case it's sort of like a movie critic seeing a movie that is bad by professional standards, but everyone else loves. Who is right? I'd lean towards the people since that's whom the content is made for in the first place.
Yeah fuck idra, what we need are more commentators who tell me what I'm already looking at. Idra's voice may not be exciting, but the fact that I might learn and take away something from his cast is a lot more exciting than listening to TB's voice. The fact that I can count the total number of analytical casters on one hand, means I'm not going to complain about idra's voice. I will complain about casters like TB though because they are a dime in a dozen.
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I guess I should have picked out the 1..... "compliment" in the article and ignored the other 5 paragraphs as to why he is a bad caster, which I don't agree with, hence the post.
If Husky is a good caster compared to IdrA, than I guess my view of a good caster is skewed and I'm in the minority.
Apparently none of you seem to get it. TB meant that there are two audiences of SC2 media: the audience who wants to learn and have in-depth analytical casters, and the more "casual" audience who just wants to enjoy watching the game. (This is not to say that they don't overlap; they do.)
TB's main point is that when casters over-analyze at the expense of making the game seem exciting, you risk alienating that second audience. And while the people who frequent TL tend to be in the more analytical side of the audience, it doesn't mean that both aren't important. "Real" sports are enjoyed by people who both know the ins and outs and strategy of the sport and by those who just like to watch and cheer on their team. In the interests of growing SC2 as an e-sport, we should encourage both audiences, not sacrifice one in the interests of the other.
Of course, if you don't care about SC2 as an e-sport, then you can ignore TB's post altogether.
On May 13 2011 16:13 _Darwin_ wrote: IdrA isn't a caster. And I PREFER the "yeah it's gg" as opposed to "NOW I WONDER IF THE 7 SCV TERRAN CAN REPRODUCE FAST ENOUGH TO TAKE ON THE 200/200 TOSS."
Agreed. I hate situations where say Terran is marching in with a button of marines/tanks, and the casters say something like "oh, well he just got off an AMAZING baneling bomb, wow this is exactly what he needed right now!" when he's on 1 base vs 4 base or some shit like that and it's obvious if the Terran army got wiped out completely with zero casualties from the Zerg, he'd still win. It just irks me the wrong way.
Glad to see the title of this thread was changed to properly reflect the nature of TB's post.
I'm very disapointed that someone felt the need to make such a misleading post when they clearly read between the lines and didn't properly understand what TB was saying, and even more disapointed that so many people jumped on the bandwagon to criticize TB over something he didn't even say.
Regardless, I think he makes excellent points, and I will continue to enjoy Idra's commentating for precisely what it is.
Yahzee uh i mean Totalbiscuit needs to understand that this is not American Football he is casting but a deep strategic game of Starcraft 2. You don't have people yelling when someone makes a good play in a lot of sports especially strategic ones like chess.
TB wasn't at all slamming Idra, he was pointing out that idra is a colour commentator...... if you watch WWE or TNA etc Idra is the equivalent of Jerry Lawler or Taz..... he is the expert who can tell you about the technical stuff and predict where a match will go. And he's very very very good at it, as TB says in the article.
Idra is not a caster however, you wouldn't put him on a cast on his own..... you simply wouldn't. you can see how well Idra works as a colour guy when he was with iNc. iNc called the games while idra added knowledge and depth, not that iNc doesn't do that himself, but iNc is a very good play by play caster considering he is relatively new to the job.
I have been extremely impressed by IdrA's commentating but someone like iNcontroL definitely fits the bill better in terms of entertainment yet accuracy.
It is best for me, as a master's player, to have a commentator who understands the game, tells me what's happening, is on occasion funny, and --most importantly-- doesn't get on my nerves (read: who isn't Husky).
I can't fault IdrA for not being as entertaining as iNcontroL or Artosis. A commentator who plays at a high level is an essential piece to good casting. In something like the NASL, I prefer as few Husky (for lack of different examples) types and as many iNcontroL or even Gretorp types as possible.
From your post I gather that TB is an entertainment caster who values superficial, "whoa!" entertainment above all else, which I disagree with. For SC2 to be consistently enjoyable to watch it has to have that intellectual component emphasized.
TL;DR: Tell me "ten minutes before the game ends" how it will end, please. If your analysis is good, I will be excessively entertained and impressed.
Idra's commentary is actually quite colorful if you appreciate his dry humour and snide remarks. I actually find it entertaining in addition to being insightful. Sure, TB is trying to angle it like Idra has no personality and is a monotonous pillar of information, but that is simply not true. What I get from this comment is more TB trying to justify why he himself is necessary despite just being boisterous while not having any deep insight. A good commentator can actually fullfill both rolls without overlapping with someone else who is equally doing both parts effectively. Heck, in sports most commentators despite being 'colorful' are also VERY well versed in the history of what they are commentating on.
Also TB raises great point when he says " It is impossible to get excited about a game that ended 10 minutes ago, when you’ve just had the fact rubbed in your face by the casting team."
The korean casters for OSL/MSL/GSL all reflect what TB is saying. They usually don't (with exception of landslide losses) outright declare that this game is over, in a middle of a game. Their casters keep the tension up, while their commentators explain why player A has a huge lead over player B.
On May 13 2011 16:12 LITTLEHEAD wrote: if you're referencing wikipedia for your points, idk how much you should take from what he says
Well, it's about sports commentary, not quantum mechanics. I don't think you can just pull out a list of references for play-by-play commentary that people would call legit or "scholarly". It's not as if he's got a bad argument anyway, if you try to digest what TB wrote. __________
Anyway, I really don't see the point as to why TB really needs to go at length about it though. People enjoy IdrA and he's one of the few exceptions when it comes to monotonous casting.
I'd sort of liken it to listening to Hubie Brown calling NBA games. He doesn't stick out like when Marv Albert goes "YES" but he really calls games beautifully.
He's not slamming IdrA but the sad part is I'd rather listen to IdrA's attempt as a caster than TotalBiscuit's "developed" play-by-play commentary any day of the week.
He tries to hard and it never seems to flow naturally. Not my cup of tea at all - but thankfully there is a mute button.
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I guess I should have picked out the 1..... "compliment" in the article and ignored the other 5 paragraphs as to why he is a bad caster, which I don't agree with, hence the post.
If Husky is a good caster compared to IdrA, than I guess my view of a good caster is skewed and I'm in the minority.
If i was privy to sports like Soccer or Football I'd give examples of the different styles and their respective commentators. I'm not saying either caster is inferior, but each appeals to different groups of people (with alot of people liking both I might add) since some people want information and cool tips in their entertainment, while others would want to watch Starcraft 2 VOD's like they would watch a horserace or game of footy on a weekend (Hence TB's commentating style of quick speech and excitable personality) which is meant to hype you up and entertain you no matter what's happening in the game.
Such a misleading title. Why such a bullshit claim? He didn't slam his casting at all. I took the time to read the entire piece by TB, and the context around it -- did you? He made some really important points about the whole business of casting, analysis, and esports. He didn't 'slam' Idra at all, in fact he broke down his commentary style and provided reference material to support his claims. I would expect Idra would largely agree with what TB said about him in specific.
Please consider having a title that accurately matches the content of the thread. I know form experience, as a mod came down on me on TL for the same type of offense (they were right to do so).
On May 13 2011 16:11 Atlare wrote: Well with a misleading title and one line description of how you feel I recommend you actually think about what Totalbiscuit said.
IdrA is a colour-commentator. He fits all the criteria, he is analytical, he is there to provide background and extensive game knowledge, based on experience as a current/ex-player. He is there to fill in time when the play-by-play commentator is not talking and as a knowledgeable resource to back up the play-by-play commentator, who is more often than not, not a professional player/coach/ex-player, but a professional broadcaster.
Thats not slamming IdrA, thats comparing IdrA to a category in which he is already put in but the vocal minority doesn't really understand the different between Colour and Play by play and the values/advantages of each.
I think anybody trying to say IdrA is an amazing Play by Play poster is a fan boy and probably below average in the intelligence department and Totalbiscuit for Colour commentary is similar (ie. you shouldn't arguing that he can anaylse as effectively as say Day[9] or IdrA).
This isn't IdrA hate its Totalbiscuit trying to debunk the stupid fanboyism that's been shown by trolling him constantly.
Sadly after you made this statement, people reinforce your statement on the ignorance of the vocal minority. We all know Idra has excellent analysis skills, but again, a casual would be bored as they would not understand the depth of Idra's analysis and his monotonous voice. More experienced SC2 players are going to be drawn in by the analysis and overlook the monotony with ease. Casuals cannot. A simple analogy would be listening to Idra's analysis (from a casual's perspective) would be like listening to a teacher lecture in class, not fun/enjoyable.
TB has the charisma that Idra lacks, but does not possess the same level of game knowledge, hence he admits he is in the position of a play-by-player commentator.
I find it difficult that so many people cannot comprehend something so simple and well-defined several times in this thread.
He is however, an analyst of exceptional skill and calibre, easily one of the best in the business. He should be lauded for this however the distinction must be made there
Is this called bashing?
I am amazed how many people in this thread didn't read a fucking single word of what TB said before shitting all over him
IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion.
this part just kills me. If Idra isn't a good caster then what does that makes TB?
oh my... i dont get how someone whos casting is mainly centered around telling how much "destruction" or "bloodshed" is going on in a voice that is so annoying that you can hardly concentrate on the games can critizice the casting of someone else. haha and then hes tryin to back his stupid opinion with wikipedia-blablah while the only point hes makin is idra callin gg before the game is over. idras unprofessional? well, i find it kinda unprofessional fronting fellow casters publicly. i just cannot help but thinkin totalbisquits motivation is "man! why is idra gettin so much credit for his casting while in fact i am the better caster!" thats just childish.
id rather listen to idra for hours than to totalbisquit for a second. big time.
If a color commentator is someone who knows and plays the game extensively and a caster is someone who just announces then I would take two color commentators any day. I love idra's style of casting. I don't need someone to try and make the game exciting, I already love Starcraft, I just want to hear in depth analysis on the game that is taking place.
TB brings nothing to the table. His "emotions" mean nothing when there is no content to fill them with. Whenever I hear him cast it seems like he is just straining himself just to think of things to say. With IdrA everything comes natural because he actually knows what is going on. Even though IdrA isn't really a caster he is still extremely enjoyable to listen to. Anything is better then some guy with a fake accent shouting random things into the mic.
Learn the game before you judge others TB, because in my opinion you are not qualified to cast professional starcraft.
Most of you didn't even read what TB said. He said in one paragraph that Idra is a commentator while TB himself is a caster (and that's all you guys have read).
He spent the rest of the post saying how he is more entertaining than Idra and how Idra doesn't bring insight or interest to the viewers while he does.
Idra is a no bullshit caster, they knew that when they hired him, I'm quite enjoying Idra's cast as a currently non SC2 playing viewer as he's quite insightful and to the point and I respect that.
Tough TB is correct, of all tournaments, NASL definitely needs some energy in their casts, have you seen the matches where Khaldor joined up for a few casts? it was a world of difference for me, great casts with excitement and energy, you wouldn't want to switch streams.
All in all I don't see a huge problem with his post, constructive criticism helps people improve
I'm trying to wonder why a distinction needs to be made anyways? Who cares if someone calls him a good caster instead of analyst? Picking fly crap out of pepper in a way.
Honestly, I prefer watch idra commentating a game over ANY one else. He is just so smart and has so much insight. By listening to his comments, you will actually LEARN something. Commentators who shout all the time at the climax of the game annoys me.
As I see it, the article is more concerned with the casters calling 'GG' before the players, than with IdrA's casting in particular. I think he has a point there, especially since IdrA himself often leaves games as soon as he is at a disadvantage, while other players would continue playing.
On May 13 2011 16:25 riboflavin wrote: Such a misleading title. Why such a bullshit claim? He didn't slam his casting at all. I took the time to read the entire piece by TB, and the context around it -- did you? He made some really important points about the whole business of casting, analysis, and esports. He didn't 'slam' Idra at all, in fact he broke down his commentary style and provided reference material to support his claims. I would expect Idra would largely agree with what TB said about him in specific.
Please consider having a title that accurately matches the content of the thread. I know form experience, as a mod came down on me on TL for the same type of offense (they were right to do so).
Maybe you should read it again if that's what you got.
Why would TB even have to acknowledge Idra as a caster? (competition? lol?) Even though idra is a player his casting is more entertaining to watch then TB, gretorp, or incontrol's casting.
And to add, I don't like how TB thinks that his opinions are facts, I mean what made him casting genius of the world of entertainment.
I really dislike TB's casting, and I kind of enjoyed Idra's, although his speech did stumble a bit.
However, this isn't football. Play-by-play casters aren't really necessary, the most famous casters we have (tastosis, day9, etc.) are all able to show emotion and do analysis. It's a real time strategy game, people don't just want the play by play, they want to see the strategy, why it works, etc. The people watching SC2 actually play the game and wish to improve, which is the exact opposite of 95% of sports fans, which is why I find using football as an example quite strange.
On May 13 2011 16:12 LITTLEHEAD wrote: if you're referencing wikipedia for your points, idk how much you should take from what he says
Well, it's about sports commentary, not quantum mechanics. I don't think you can just pull out a list of references for play-by-play commentary that people would call legit or "scholarly". It's not as if he's got a bad argument anyway, if you try to digest what TB wrote. __________
Anyway, I really don't see the point as to why TB really needs to go at length about it though. People enjoy IdrA and he's one of the few exceptions when it comes to monotonous casting.
I'd sort of liken it to listening to Hubie Brown calling NBA games. He doesn't stick out like when Marv Albert goes "YES" but he really calls games beautifully.
Im just quoting to tell you that Marv is a play by play commentator, and Hubie is the color guy, its two different personalities you are comparing.
note: if the person you are saying is like Marv was actually an ex coach, you'll probably wrong :D.
On May 13 2011 16:12 LITTLEHEAD wrote: if you're referencing wikipedia for your points, idk how much you should take from what he says
He didn't reference Wikipedia for any points. He referenced Wikipedia for people to see 2 facts. Most people in the forum think play-by-play commentators are color commentators and they would never take his word for it when he says otherwise. He's educating them.
Many people in the forum are simple-minded. I know this one guy who couldn't tell the difference between a point and a fact. And he used his own ignorance to hate on someone else. Can you believe that guy?
On May 13 2011 16:26 iYiYi wrote: TB brings nothing to the table. His "emotions" mean nothing when there is no content to fill them with. Whenever I hear him cast it seems like he is just straining himself just to think of things to say. With IdrA everything comes natural because he is watching a game he knows about. Of course IdrA isn't really a caster, but he sure is a lot better then some british/australian guy shouting random things into the mic.
Learn the game before you judge others TB, because in my opinion you aren't qualified to even cast professional starcraft.
Totally agree with this, TB's response sort of sounded as if he was defending casters with no knowledge of the game. IMO there are a lot of these in Starcraft, I think there are people in between like Incontrol, tasteless or Artosis, all of them have extensive Starcraft knowledge and are great casters.
idra may be kind of quiet or boring to some people, but i would rather have his in depth analysis over any of the one million shout casters. I hate to bash casters but its not to hard to find someone to ramble on about what we are already looking it, someone with idra analytical level is so rare its hard not appreciate what he brings to the table.
On May 13 2011 16:11 Atlare wrote: Well with a misleading title and one line description of how you feel I recommend you actually think about what Totalbiscuit said.
IdrA is a colour-commentator. He fits all the criteria, he is analytical, he is there to provide background and extensive game knowledge, based on experience as a current/ex-player. He is there to fill in time when the play-by-play commentator is not talking and as a knowledgeable resource to back up the play-by-play commentator, who is more often than not, not a professional player/coach/ex-player, but a professional broadcaster.
Thats not slamming IdrA, thats comparing IdrA to a category in which he is already put in but the vocal minority doesn't really understand the different between Colour and Play by play and the values/advantages of each.
I think anybody trying to say IdrA is an amazing Play by Play poster is a fan boy and probably below average in the intelligence department and Totalbiscuit for Colour commentary is similar (ie. you shouldn't arguing that he can anaylse as effectively as say Day[9] or IdrA).
This isn't IdrA hate its Totalbiscuit trying to debunk the stupid fanboyism that's been shown by trolling him constantly.
Sadly after you made this statement, people reinforce your statement on the ignorance of the vocal minority. We all know Idra has excellent analysis skills, but again, a casual would be bored as they would not understand the depth of Idra's analysis and his monotonous voice. More experienced SC2 players are going to be drawn in by the analysis and overlook the monotony with ease. Casuals cannot. A simple analogy would be listening to Idra's analysis (from a casual's perspective) would be like listening to a teacher lecture in class, not fun/enjoyable.
TB has the charisma that Idra lacks, but does not possess the same level of game knowledge, hence he admits he is in the position of a play-by-player commentator.
I find it difficult that so many people cannot comprehend something so simple and well-defined several times in this thread.
Thank God, someone who gets it. The amount of garbage in the thread was making me sad for TL. I expect they stopped reading at the title and just responded based on a false claim.
I'll say it again. TB wasn't unfair or slamming anyone. I only hope that his point of view about the casuals market is shared by the entrepreneurs of eSports.
As a more hardcore fan, you can expect my business either way. But to win over the more casual spectators, leagues will have to present their product in an appealing fashion and not just throw some really smart SC guys in the booth.
On May 13 2011 16:23 IronMonocle wrote: Yahzee uh i mean Totalbiscuit needs to understand that this is not American Football he is casting but a deep strategic game of Starcraft 2. You don't have people yelling when someone makes a good play in a lot of sports especially strategic ones like chess.
This I guess is the basis of how I feel. I just feel like he's asking a soccer caster to cast a game of chess. THERE IT IS CHECKMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE.
Just because TB calls him a "colour-commentator" doesn't mean that TB can instantly say what IdrA should and should not be saying. TB is assuming that's why he was brought on and that those are black and white rules.
On May 13 2011 16:25 pbjsandwich wrote: IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion.
this part just kills me. If Idra isn't a good caster then what does that makes TB?
IdrA is an analyst for sure. He remains calm, whatever happens. This DOES take away some of the excitement while it adds more analysis. This is TBs point. No bashing, but rather pointing out the obvious.
Gretorp, however, seemed to trade in a lot of his enthousiasm because he was sitting next to IdrA. This left Gretorp with nothing, as he is not an analyst but a "hyper". So the only thing he was doing during the casts, was acknowledging everything IdrA said in a similar calm voice and with a lot more words.
I'm curious to see how the InControl - IdrA combo will be. I really like the excitement from InControl, let's hope he doesn't hold back.
I think you have a reasonable point here. Personally I am trying to get better at the game, so I always appreciate and enjoy Idra's casting, since he really does know an incredible amount about the game. I think you are partly right about calling the game early, the part of me looking for entertainment gets less interested when the casters are saying "just waitin for player x to gg". On the other hand I disagree that them saying that doesn't teach anything. Sometimes something seemingly insignificant happens and Idra says "Oh, now it's over" and I'm a little surprised. I'm a Diamond player, and I still have a ton to learn.
The one word of advice I have for you, TotalBiscuit, is to chill out. I think you are a perfectly good caster, I probably would have watched your VODs a lot when I was in silver/gold league. But, if you were to tone down your emotions, you would get flamed a lot less. Don't take things personally, don't give the impression that you are freaking out (don't freak out). Calmly say what you know is true and less people will blindly hate. It just seems like you are trying to push people's buttons sometimes.
I don't think you can compare e-sports to traditional sports in terms of casting, and I really wish TB and others would stop doing it. In every sport out there, it's just as easy to score points when you're down by 20 as when the game's tied. In SC, leads build on leads and incredibly subtle things can change the flow of the game. Good commentary, like Idra, points out those subtleties and gives the viewer insight into the complexities of the game.
I also don't think there's any room for play-by-play. In traditional sports PBP adds something, whether it's the speed and type of pitches in baseball or formations in football. In chess or SC2 you're just re-stating things that are incredibly obvious to the viewer if you do PBP, so you need people who can analyze the game or you quickly run out of meaningful things to talk about.
On May 13 2011 16:27 pbjsandwich wrote: and honestly his point about the amount of casual viewers there are?
Who knows that for sure?
Who is taking a poll w/ every major cast asking the skill level of these players?
Maybe the majority of the viewers are the more hardcore?
When has that been true for any type of eSport or sport? Casuals have always been the dominant form of viewer-ship. WC3 for a example was difficult to understand for casuals and could not pick up a similar momentum to SC1 which was significantly easier to watch and understand. That is just one example of many. Unfortunately I do not have any support at hand to back up such claim, but I feel it is near common sense for anyone who is a spectator themselves of Sports or eSports.
On May 13 2011 16:23 IronMonocle wrote: Yahzee uh i mean Totalbiscuit needs to understand that this is not American Football he is casting but a deep strategic game of Starcraft 2. You don't have people yelling when someone makes a good play in a lot of sports especially strategic ones like chess.
You should listen to more Korean casts of BW games. There is a reason why quite a few people get riled up and start complaining whenever the only livestream of a match are from Chinese casters talking over the Korean commentary. There is a reason why PLAYGUUU, STORMUUU, REAVER REAVER REAVER are some of the most recognizable semi-memes in the SC community.
I do agree with TB comments.
Idra is a fantastic analytical colour commentator. However, him alone cannot make a game entertaining. Analysis is only part of the entertainment, and I doubt that it alone can be a complete package in terms of entertainment. There needs to be that voice that can funnel energy into the audience through tone and play-by-play excitement in addition to the analytical voice.
Of course, forced passion is distracting, but when the caster fully masters that passion, the results are just as important as genius analysis. Tastosis does this brilliantly well, as does Day[9] whenever he is solo-casting or dual-casting.
Isn't this title a little sensationalist? He's addressing another piece that talked about how we need more analytical casters in our leagues, and he agrees with that. At the same time, he points out that we need a healthy mix of both casting styles. He also talks about how he is working to address the current lack of analytical casters in the scene, which is pretty commendable.
All in all, he makes a lot of good points, and I agree with most of them.
Play by play casting like TB does doesn't work for SC2. Too many things happen at once resulting in super fast casting that starts to destract from the game instead of adding to it. SC2 isn't a horserace. I much prefer the 'insightful' style like Idra does (and many others do). If Idra stopped acting like a 12 year old he would be a great caster.
On May 13 2011 16:25 pbjsandwich wrote: IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion.
this part just kills me. If Idra isn't a good caster then what does that makes TB?
Did you read the entire post? >.<
yeah he's just defending himself on points people criticize him on
bottom line is most people in the community would rather listen to idra than TB
TB's goal is to provide an environment for casual gamers and fresh faces alike to enjoy the game.
Unfortunately - most of the people deeply immersed in the game that enjoy watching competitive play are far less than casual, and so his casts come off as annoying and slightly obnoxious. This is really frustrating to deal with and showed up most notably in the IPL where he dumb-downed the game even though the majority of the audience was more than likely on another level.
He's doing this to get attention and he's totally wrong. Anyone with a voicebox and a microphone can do play-by-play (although some are better than others, Chill and Wheat for example). That's why there are shit loads of casters. Good analysis on the other hand is a rare gift, something only Artosis, Idra and beta-phase Day9 have, and that makes Idra the very definition of a 'good caster', whether he puts on typical commentator intonation like TB or not. The ideal is someone who can do both, i.e. Artosis, but I'll take Idra over Totalbiscuit any day of the week.
PS. Starcraft is a hardcore game. Everyone wants analysis.
TotalBiscuit is terrible, IdrA is pretty good. Everyone that plays the game should enjoy IdrA more; he explains in depth plots and describes the current metagame. TotalBiscuit on the other hand just tells me what I can already see, worthless knowledge. TotalBiscuit just has a skewed perspective of e-sports casting
It's actually kinda silly that he takes this viewpoint from how anti "dumb casual" he was in WoW. I would still just kinda prefer him to stick to WoW. He's entertaining there.
The thing is, a good show needs both a play by play "caster" and a color commentator. You see it all the time in TV. NBA, NHL, NFL, Nwhateverleague/association/game/thing.
They compliment each other. Saying that only people giving the play by play is a caster is wrong. Idra isnt a bad caster, he is a different type of caster. Having said that, the color is more important of the two. The play by play brings the hype, but the color tells you WHY you should be hyped, and WHY the issue matters.
TB gave his opinion, no big deal, no great drama, people have opinions, sometimes, they express them. TB wasn't criticizing idra per se as I read him, either. He was saying idra has skill set X and (in his opinion) good casters need something from skill set Y.
For myself, I very much value idras insight into the strategic level of the game. I think alone he would just be giving analysis (which is something different), but with the right co-commentator/synergy I think he could be/is a very effective caster simpliciter.
I partially agree with TB, he is right when he says Idra should not tell the game is over, when the players are still playing the game. It's kinda anticlimatic. BUT i love idra's casting because he give some really good insight in term of strategy and the different paths a player could take to win the game. There is only one who have a smiliar value when casting, it's Artosis. And seriously i prefer a billion times casters like Idra or Artosis than someone who has a good energy and enthusiasm but don't have a clue about the strategies.
I think casters like Idra are good for the game but i don't think we gonna see more because you have to be really good at the game to cast like Idra do.
Casters that are really good at analyse the game are Artosis, Idra and Gretorp.
On May 13 2011 16:31 jalstar wrote: I don't think you can compare e-sports to traditional sports in terms of casting, and I really wish TB and others would stop doing it. In every sport out there, it's just as easy to score points when you're down by 20 as when the game's tied. In SC, leads build on leads and incredibly subtle things can change the flow of the game. Good commentary, like Idra, points out those subtleties and gives the viewer insight into the complexities of the game.
I also don't think there's any room for play-by-play. In traditional sports PBP adds something, whether it's the speed and type of pitches in baseball or formations in football. In chess or SC2 you're just re-stating things that are incredibly obvious to the viewer if you do PBP, so you need people who can analyze the game or you quickly run out of meaningful things to talk about.
Just my 2 cents.
AGREED.
Play by play should be kept to a minimum. Why? Cause that's the observer's job. It's not like you're watching the entire map and need to be told what to do. The person doing the 'play by play' is your observer in the match who tells you visually what's going on whether it's highlighting the harvester difference or highlighting different things on the production tab like research or expansions etc. You don't need the play by play guy to talk for more than 30% of the cast unless they're actually funny (something most casters aren't in the slightest). So when you have someone like TB or Husky who feel that it is necessary to talk for every single second of the cast at a rate of 300 words per minute I just get pissed/annoyed and mute them.
I say bring Husky to cast then. He'll tell you exactly what the scouting worker is doing, but miss key errors, important timings, and just about everything else that's important in deciding the victor of a game.
The model here has to be tasteless and Artosis. Nobody does it better than those two.
I think this was just TB trying to get back at EG. He had that problem with iNcontroL a while ago, and flew off the handle generating bad press for himself over and over. He's doing it again. I like TotalBiscuit, but I'm starting to dislike him with crap like this and where it brings his reputation.
I think TB has a fairly valid point. IdrA's current popularity as a caster partly stems from his status as the most popular foreigner in SC2*. That isn't to say his analysis isn't excellent, because quite obviously it is. As a Colour Commentator however, he lacks experience to be considered really excellent. He isn't an entertainer really at all. His appeal is largely to the hardcore fanbase - which we can presume is largely the audience of the NASL anyways so in that case it works excellently.
Personally I really like listening to him, because of the knowledge I gain from his insight. However, TB has a point in that he would have very little draw to a more casual viewer who just wants to be purely entertained by watching the games he's casting rather then viewing them as both entertainment and a personal gaming improvement tool.
apparently to TB.... casting is srs business ;o...
jokes aside...
I don't like play-by-play casting. I understand the game well enough to see that they are making scvs and fighting. Thanks. although I can see how the "casuals" like the play-by-play rather than the analytical.
Sorry to disagree, but Idra's "style" doesn't bother me.
(Then again I didn't really like TB much anyways, but w/e)
I think what people are responding to are the statements that TB makes: "The climax of a game should be the GG" and various other points extolling the importance of the so-called "play-by-play commentators", or "casters".
I for one think that for any commentator to be a part of a casting team, they must demonstrate knowledge of the game in order not to look like a numbskull. This knowledge is not demonstrated by pretending an intense competitive game is being played when it's 10 ultralisks to a 20 food colossus ball, and not an intense desperation game.
The play-by-play commentating should be very low on the totem pole, in relation to any analysis.
An aside: I listen to Husky on occasion because of the high quality games he picks but my hand is always glued to the volume scroll...it's not worth it to hear some of the things going on at the cost of listening to how Husky is "not sure what X is doing here".
Edit: the statements I quoted above from TB are direct evidence that he values play-by-play casting more than the analysis, contrary to what people are saying about him valuing each as complementary and equal.
On May 13 2011 16:36 Thoramas wrote: People in this thread seriously need to take a chill pill and re-read the context.
TB is not saying A>B or B<A.
He's saying A is different from B and A+B (read: 2 people working together) = profit.
EXACTLY.
The original title and post were quite sensationalist in their content.
Idra represents one extreme side of the casting spectrum. TB represents the other extreme side. Alone, their casting is questionable for completely different reasons and weaknesses. Together, those weaknesses can cancel out for great success.
It is absolutely obvious that anyone here would choose IdrA over TotalBiscuit any day of the week as far as commentary they would like hearing is concerned. TotalBiscuit even goes over this in his very post, saying that people who care about getting better at the game and are interested in hearing the in-depth commentary care for the color commentator, and casuals who are either just garnering interest or don't know what they're watching care for the play-by-play commentator.
The entire post is about the synergy between the two kinds of commentators, something that he mentions IPL is lacking in particular. To be fair, there are many of you here who are saying "IdrA is better than TotalBiscuit every day of the week etc. etc." have also complained in the early stages about NASL's commentary being lackluster and unhyped. It's easy to compare the two extremes to each other, and when you do, you'll lean farther towards the side that most fits your current status as a player, as mentioned in the statement above this one.
I don't see a problem with anything TB wrote there. Perhaps it needs to be simplified, so all the people taking offense realize just what exactly he said. Let me paraphrase it like this:
"The perfect cast need People filling role A and B. Idra is exceptional at A, but should not be mistaken with B, since he is not too good at B. Someone else needs to fill role B."
Personally I do not like TotalBiscuit trying his hand on A either. He is more of the B guy (and aknowledges that over and over again).
On May 13 2011 16:36 Samhax wrote: I partially agree with TB, he is right when he says Idra should not tell the game is over, when the players are still playing the game. It's kinda anticlimatic. BUT i love idra's casting because he give some really good insight in term of strategy and the different paths a player could take to win the game. There is only one who have a smiliar value when casting, it's Artosis. And seriously i prefer a billion times casters like Idra or Artosis than someone who has a good energy and enthusiasm but don't have a clue about the strategies.
I think casters like Idra are good for the game but i don't think we gonna see more because you have to be really good at the game to cast like Idra do.
Casters that are really good at analyse the game are Artosis, Idra and Gretorp.
That's stupid. That's like an NBA commentator saying the game is close should the Lakers be beating the Heat by 30 points. It's not close and it's not exciting unless you're a fan of one of the participants and just want to see them roll face. Traditionally, people who do play by play are not loved but tolerated when they know their role and don't overstep it. This is why when you only have a person who is doing play by play for 85% of the game and analysing for 15% of the game people get turned off and have to mute the cast.
You also need to know the difference between a caster and a commentator, something TB tries to educate ignorant people on.
well i find that while some casters have passion and some have knowledge, very few have both. day9 and tastosis would be the 2 main exceptions, and even then IdrA has more game knowledge than them it seems. I would rather listen to idra explain the game, than hear someone shouting about things they only half understand.
On May 13 2011 16:12 LITTLEHEAD wrote: if you're referencing wikipedia for your points, idk how much you should take from what he says
Well, it's about sports commentary, not quantum mechanics. I don't think you can just pull out a list of references for play-by-play commentary that people would call legit or "scholarly". It's not as if he's got a bad argument anyway, if you try to digest what TB wrote. __________
Anyway, I really don't see the point as to why TB really needs to go at length about it though. People enjoy IdrA and he's one of the few exceptions when it comes to monotonous casting.
I'd sort of liken it to listening to Hubie Brown calling NBA games. He doesn't stick out like when Marv Albert goes "YES" but he really calls games beautifully.
Im just quoting to tell you that Marv is a play by play commentator, and Hubie is the color guy, its two different personalities you are comparing.
note: if the person you are saying is like Marv was actually an ex coach, you'll probably wrong :D.
That's exactly what I mean, though. A lot of people will enjoy Hubie and find him entertaining and enjoyable to listen to, regardless of being considered the color guy.
On May 13 2011 16:17 Pufftrees wrote: IdrA is a polarizing figure in SC2 and always creates a lot of attention around him. TotalBiscuit is pretty much an attention whore, I am not surprised at all that he would make these kind of comments in order to bring more attention onto himself.
On a related note, IdrA was a better commentator then Gretorp and InControl (and frankly I enjoy them both quite a bit).
Why is TB an attention whore? I must have missed some stuff he has done.
I do agree with TB about... most of the points, but being and Idra fan i did enjoy his casting.
I don't like TB's casting / him in general, but his points are good. The way he words them attracts some hate just because that's the way he is I suppose. Yes, even if you read the whole post, it is still possible to feel that TB is criticizing Idra for the wrong reasons.
This thread is one of the most atrocious I have ever seen on TL. Most people clearly never even read the OP, many are just mindlessly caster bashing. Why is this thread even still open?
On May 13 2011 16:36 Thoramas wrote: People in this thread seriously need to take a chill pill and re-read the context.
TB is not saying A>B or B>A.
He's saying A is different from B and A+B (read: 2 people working together) = profit.
Sums it up perfectly. I hope I'm not out of line for saying this but I really really hope that the mods are willing to get out the banhammers and go through this thread with a vengeance.
I'm not a fan of IdrA, I'm not a fan of TB. But TB is right. IdrA = Artosis = Day[9] an analytical commentator with a superb understanding of the game. a colour commentator. Fanboys praise IdrA as the messiah, and as is often the case with the extremist minority of any community (muslims, christians, fans etc) they are the most vocal.
PS: Fans =/= Fanboys. just so you guys know. I like IdrA, a lot as a person and a player. But his online persona irks me. And I say persona because IdrA is very nice in RL and a lot of the stuff he pulls, he obviously does for publicity
I can't believe there are people who don't enjoy listening to Idra's commentary. Being an exceptionally talented and experienced Starcraft player, Idra provides what others cannot: tip top level pro analysis. He has the confidence and experience necessary to make calls less skilled commentators can't. Also, you shouldn't need someone to make a Starcraft game exciting for you, this isn't kindergarten where the teacher reads us a picture book using a wide variety of voices. Go watch the Simpsons or something if you need sheer entertainment value. Someone who values understanding Starcraft should find endless fascination in how Idra perceives the game.
Bottom Line: Most commentators don't have the depth of knowledge Idra does and to try and compensate for that, they make the shallower commentary they can provide as exciting as possible.
On May 13 2011 16:06 Swineflew wrote: Anyone else see this and think "wtf, who is this guy to call out another caster when you're only shining point is your voice"?
No, because TB has more than his voice. He knows how to spice it up. I saw several games casted by TB where both players built up for minutes with little harass. I still did not feel the urge to fast-forward.
Since I normally watch the GSL, TB's style is somewhat unusual for me as he really sticks to play-by-play. When it happens, he mentioned it. He is not thinking out loud which options each player has and which card he will most likely play.
But I think he is right that Starcraft 2 is no longer just our game of the nerds. We, who actually play and struggle (more or less) to get better don't see it as a purely entertaining experience. But we watch other sports in TV for pure entertainment (very few of us actually play soccer or baseball competitively.)
In this sense, the same rules for other sports broadcasts apply for for Starcraft, too.
Are you guys serious? To those bashing TB, read the freaking article. Because it turns out you just revealed to everyone that you're blind IdrA fanboys.
I pay extra attention to games where IdrA is casting.
That said, you have to treat this like any other broadcast. Imagine some hockey savant begins to do colour commentary about hockey, it'd be great! Unfortunately he's stuttering, when something goes wrong he gets flustered, he can't understand cues from others, he doesn't look at the camera - it's not very pleasing for the viewer, but it's super informative. Now imagine that same savant, except now he's well-spoken, likeable, a quick thinker, kept the viewer interested, informed, and kept the program flowing brilliantly. Even, better, right?
Now, if you want my honest opinion, I think IdrA did very well tonight - he was confident, knowledgeable, and he tried to keep things professional while showing a bit of his... no-nonsense persona. The hockey example I gave was a bit extreme, but hopefully it demonstrates that there does exist a spectrum between "bad" and "good", and IdrA is somewhere in the middle. His insight is top notch, his personal agenda is interesting, but he doesn't bring it together as cohesively as he could. Despite what a lot of people here think, bringing it all together and making it flow is pretty damn important, and while I'm glad you think the cast was top-notch, IdrA (as well as Gretorp) have a long way to go.
(Of course, I realize IdrA has little experience casting, so I don't hold his casting ability against him)
I think part of the problem is how harsh TB just brushes off idra's casting style. "IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion." Mainly the bold part.
Clearly many people enjoy idra's casting, which is all that matters. It just seems like trolling and stirring the pot, though I do agree with many of the other points he makes I just think he could have said it in a different way.
This article is being taken completely out of context when you post it on it's own. Your thread title also doesn't do much to help the matter. You are making it out as if TB just randomly wrote a piece about how bad Idra sucks, whereas the truth is this is a reply to an article which was previously writen regarding Idras casting.
When put in context I actually agree with alot of TBs points here, but not all of them, Idra is actually an awesome analytical caster, he could definitely do with being a little less monotone yes, but the problem is really that him and Gretorp are both analytical casters. They would both perform better besides a play-by-play caster to keep the excitement up.
It's kind of like moletrap and doa, they both lean towards being more play-by-play casters. Yes moletrap has alot of game knowledge but he really shines when he is describing what is going on korean hype commentry style. Therefore if you actually took someone like moletrap and put him alongside Idra you have two great casters who actually compliment each other instead of getting in each others way.
Obviously the greatest example of this in SC2 is Tasteless and Artosis, apart from the natural chemistry they have together, they also rock because Tasteless is a pure play by play while Artosis is pure Color-Commentary.
Anyway, I think NASL with these two casting is still very entertaining so it's kind of a non-issue. But with a good play-by-play commentator Idra would definitely shine more than he already does.
On May 13 2011 16:31 jalstar wrote: I don't think you can compare e-sports to traditional sports in terms of casting, and I really wish TB and others would stop doing it. In every sport out there, it's just as easy to score points when you're down by 20 as when the game's tied. In SC, leads build on leads and incredibly subtle things can change the flow of the game. Good commentary, like Idra, points out those subtleties and gives the viewer insight into the complexities of the game.
I also don't think there's any room for play-by-play. In traditional sports PBP adds something, whether it's the speed and type of pitches in baseball or formations in football. In chess or SC2 you're just re-stating things that are incredibly obvious to the viewer if you do PBP, so you need people who can analyze the game or you quickly run out of meaningful things to talk about.
Just my 2 cents.
AGREED.
Play by play should be kept to a minimum. Why? Cause that's the observer's job. It's not like you're watching the entire map and need to be told what to do. The person doing the 'play by play' is your observer in the match who tells you visually what's going on whether it's highlighting the harvester difference or highlighting different things on the production tab like research or expansions etc. You don't need the play by play guy to talk for more than 30% of the cast unless they're actually funny (something most casters aren't in the slightest). So when you have someone like TB or Husky who feel that it is necessary to talk for every single second of the cast at a rate of 300 words per minute I just get pissed/annoyed and mute them.
I disagree with the assessment that there is no need for play by play in eSports. The cameramen and the production crew present physical sports in generally much clearer ways then observers who ofttimes miss things do. I can clearly see Kesler is passing to Raymond whose carrying the puck up the wing and then getting pinched into the boards by Weber. That doesn't invalidate the play by play man's call of the play. I don't need the play by play when I'm sitting in Roger's Arena watching a game live because the crowd is providing a level of emotion and connection to the game. However, when sitting at home, it brings another level to the experience when I'm by myself or with a few friends/family watching the game.
Words can help enhance the experience and a good play by play man can generally up the level of a game if he's skilled at his job.
IdrA is leagues ahead of TB as a caster, analyst and commentator. It's the difference between a Bentley and a Honda Fit. The motivations behind his article are curious, that's about all I will say.
On May 13 2011 16:38 Aberu wrote: I think this was just TB trying to get back at EG. He had that problem with iNcontroL a while ago, and flew off the handle generating bad press for himself over and over. He's doing it again. I like TotalBiscuit, but I'm starting to dislike him with crap like this and where it brings his reputation.
This is a ridiculous notion. TB is much more professional than that. The entire debacle between him and Incontrol are essentially forgotten, except for a few people who somehow want to have a go at TB for no reason at all.
On May 13 2011 16:42 SolveN wrote: I can't believe there are people who don't enjoy listening to Idra's commentary. Being an exceptionally talented and experienced Starcraft player, Idra provides what others cannot: tip top level pro analysis. He has the confidence and experience necessary to make calls less skilled commentators can't. Also, you shouldn't need someone to make a Starcraft game exciting for you, this isn't kindergarten where the teacher reads us a picture book using a wide variety of voices. Go watch the Simpsons or something if you need sheer entertainment value. Someone who values understanding Starcraft should find endless fascination in how Idra perceives the game.
Bottom Line: Most commentators don't have the depth of knowledge Idra does and to try and compensate for that, they make the shallower commentary they can provide as exciting as possible.
Now put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't play Starcraft. You open up an NASL stream and you hear a monotone voice using terminology you don't understand talking about a game state you aren't sure, going over possibilities that stem from a situation that you can't grasp. THAT is what the play-by-play commentator is for. And if you believe that every one of the 20k+ viewers who watches an SC2 pro cast is someone who's played the game before, you're sorely mistaken.
On May 13 2011 16:11 Atlare wrote: Well with a misleading title and one line description of how you feel I recommend you actually think about what Totalbiscuit said.
IdrA is a colour-commentator. He fits all the criteria, he is analytical, he is there to provide background and extensive game knowledge, based on experience as a current/ex-player. He is there to fill in time when the play-by-play commentator is not talking and as a knowledgeable resource to back up the play-by-play commentator, who is more often than not, not a professional player/coach/ex-player, but a professional broadcaster.
Thats not slamming IdrA, thats comparing IdrA to a category in which he is already put in but the vocal minority doesn't really understand the different between Colour and Play by play and the values/advantages of each.
I think anybody trying to say IdrA is an amazing Play by Play poster is a fan boy and probably below average in the intelligence department and Totalbiscuit for Colour commentary is similar (ie. you shouldn't arguing that he can anaylse as effectively as say Day[9] or IdrA).
This isn't IdrA hate its Totalbiscuit trying to debunk the stupid fanboyism that's been shown by trolling him constantly.
Indeed. TotalBiscuit gives an advice and all the fanboys out there read through his lines in just a few seconds to know: "omfg hes bashing idra" --- Oo
On May 13 2011 16:40 Headshot wrote: TotalBiscuit's pure play-by-play style is extremely unappealing. He's in no position to comment on anyone else's commentary.
Excuse me but you and anyone else in this thread who shares this opinion obviously did not take the time to read the OP. The man is a professional caster and by pretty much any standard really good at what he does and knows how to go at it and what actually revolves around casting.
What he took the time to write there substantiates that. If your personal preference as a fan or otherwise focusses on Idra that's one thing but that is purely on content not on the art of casting itself which is where he is aiming at in his writing. Personally I fully agree with him about Idra being a horrible caster but he is great to have at the table to add certain insight moments during the game and between game and post game discussion from a meta perspective.
Keep in mind what the man tried to bring across here before responding blindly to it.
What this game needs is more duo's or especially trio's in the spirit of tastosis. One very good colour caster and two play by play casters. The important thing is chemistry. What tastosis has going for it as just a duo is how artosis is great at colour and play by play casting while tasteless just sets up for artosis with his remarks, mistakes and jokes.
I'm actually surprised we haven't seen a great casting duo or especially trio pop up yet. I'm having high hopes for Kaldor as well in the future as I have been really enjoying his casting, even though its play by play.
p.s. The horde of fanboism that takes this so personal is getting ridiculous in my opinion. You can't even critique a certain person anymore without running into thousands of fanatics who blindly jump to conclusions and reply with physical threats and gross insults.
On May 13 2011 16:36 Samhax wrote: I partially agree with TB, he is right when he says Idra should not tell the game is over, when the players are still playing the game. It's kinda anticlimatic. BUT i love idra's casting because he give some really good insight in term of strategy and the different paths a player could take to win the game. There is only one who have a smiliar value when casting, it's Artosis. And seriously i prefer a billion times casters like Idra or Artosis than someone who has a good energy and enthusiasm but don't have a clue about the strategies.
I think casters like Idra are good for the game but i don't think we gonna see more because you have to be really good at the game to cast like Idra do.
Casters that are really good at analyse the game are Artosis, Idra and Gretorp.
That's stupid. That's like an NBA commentator saying the game is close should the Lakers be beating the Heat by 30 points. It's not close and it's not exciting unless you're a fan of one of the participants and just want to see them roll face. Traditionally, people who do play by play are not loved but tolerated when they know their role and don't overstep it. This is why when you only have a person who is doing play by play for 85% of the game and analysing for 15% of the game people get turned off and have to mute the cast.
You also need to know the difference between a caster and a commentator, something TB tries to educate ignorant people on.
you NEED to keep it interesting, it is entertaintment, as soon as you give up the finale, people lose intrest and watch something else, YOU NEED TO KEEP THEM TUNED IN! calling a game 10 minutes before it ends makes me not want to watch anymore. when there's a hint of a miraculous comeback, as a casual gamer you'd be much more inclined to stay and watch. it's then the casters duty to keep you entertained for the rest of the match.
I don't know, it feels like the community wants to have the cake and eat it as well. I seem recall a lot of posts bashing some casters for stating GG a few minutes in advance. I believe Tastosis does that a lot. But when Idra does it, that's something people have been asking for all the time? Also, people seem to love how the Korean commentators get excited, so much that some people like to watch games with korean commentary only for that excitement factor. But when other people try to go high gear, it's no longer desireable? I don't particularly like TB that much, but I do like the intensity he brings to a cast, regardless whether he's wrong or right. Listening to Idra doesn't do it for me at all.
Now, no caster will appeal to everyone, but some consistency of opinion might be in order here. How can a caster adjust to please a greater audience when these conflicting signals keep being sent?
On May 13 2011 16:38 Aberu wrote: I think this was just TB trying to get back at EG. He had that problem with iNcontroL a while ago, and flew off the handle generating bad press for himself over and over. He's doing it again. I like TotalBiscuit, but I'm starting to dislike him with crap like this and where it brings his reputation.
This is a ridiculous notion. TB is much more professional than that. The entire debacle between him and Incontrol are essentially forgotten, except for a few people who somehow want to have a go at TB for no reason at all.
Not that I dispute your main point, but TB is definitely not "professional" when he posts on Reddit. He has a history of trolling, insulting and belittling when provoked.
People hating on TB: Just mute him like I do. If you're good enough to be bothered by the casual level commentaries then you're good enough to watch while listening to music.
For the love of god I hope he does not cast IPL season 2 - and I think I speak for the majority.
We know the game and do not want dumb-downed Starcraft.
speak for yourself.
i find TB to be entertaining. he's definitely no idra, or artosis, or tasteless, or day[9], but he's still a great caster. he'll probably be more well-liked if he was paired with analytical casters, but seriously, this guy's hilarious.
TotalBiscuit, you are such a hypocrite. Time and time again throughout the Reddit thread you have admonished users for immediately dismissing opinions with no backbone, yet time and time again, I have seen you do the same. Which is it? Whenever someone critiques your work, you immediately retort by calling them a troll. People in this community will have opinions; some will like you, and some will not. However, you do not have to respond to every single hater by calling them out with random insults if you have nothing constructive to say--you are simply sinking to the low levels of those who do the same to you.
I dunno. It may be because I have a BW background, where play by play was a big part of what casting was, but I enjoy having someone try to build up suspense. I almost think the production tab takes away from that in a sense: the suspense of "oh my god, was he researching mines or siege mode as the enemy moves in for an attack" made watching BW such a great experience. Remember, the point of a sport is to be entertaining. The mark of a good play by play announcer is to go beyond what is happening and describe the game in a way that is entertaining.
Analysis can also be a part of the commentating process. However, unlike play by play, having only an analyst makes for a boring cast: its like a lesson, not entertainment. The right mix is key: having a play by play caster build suspense, then after a battle, while the dust settles and both players rebuild, use that dead time to analyze the past and what both players may do in the future.
I definitely agree that casters need to stop with the whole "well, thats gg, game over, move on" even if the game is for all intents and purposes over. I consider myself to be a high level observer. I know when games are over. Yet a good caster can do his best to hide just how desperate the situation is for one player. Again: casting is entertainment, not a learning experience. Something like the NASL is much different than a Day9 daily. You tune into one to learn, one to be entertained. Sure, having idra on to fill in the dead time is great for possibly learning something. But I definitely believe that tipping that scale too far in that direction is actually bad for the entertainment value as a whole.
After a year or so of SC2 casting I think most people will agree that the best available set up is a dual cast where one person is highly-analytical and the other person is whatever-it-is that tasteless and djwheat and those sorts of guys do. The people who are complimenting idra's casts are exactly right: he does analysis better than anybody. Maybe his presentation isn't perfect but content is 90% of the ballgame anyway for analysis. I think most people would agree that Idra solo-cast would be interesting but not a good setup for a tournament cast.
That said, I think the big problem with the guys who aren't "analysis" guys, is when they start doing analysis anyway. And it's wrong. A lot. But that's to be expected The non-analysis guys don't tend to be very strong players and, well, it's really hard to follow a pro-game in real time and say insightful things.
TLDR: Dual casts are best. Analysis guys needs to be really good at analysis. Non-analysis guys need to stop analyzing.
On May 13 2011 16:31 jalstar wrote: I don't think you can compare e-sports to traditional sports in terms of casting, and I really wish TB and others would stop doing it. In every sport out there, it's just as easy to score points when you're down by 20 as when the game's tied. In SC, leads build on leads and incredibly subtle things can change the flow of the game. Good commentary, like Idra, points out those subtleties and gives the viewer insight into the complexities of the game.
I also don't think there's any room for play-by-play. In traditional sports PBP adds something, whether it's the speed and type of pitches in baseball or formations in football. In chess or SC2 you're just re-stating things that are incredibly obvious to the viewer if you do PBP, so you need people who can analyze the game or you quickly run out of meaningful things to talk about.
Just my 2 cents.
AGREED.
Play by play should be kept to a minimum. Why? Cause that's the observer's job. It's not like you're watching the entire map and need to be told what to do. The person doing the 'play by play' is your observer in the match who tells you visually what's going on whether it's highlighting the harvester difference or highlighting different things on the production tab like research or expansions etc. You don't need the play by play guy to talk for more than 30% of the cast unless they're actually funny (something most casters aren't in the slightest). So when you have someone like TB or Husky who feel that it is necessary to talk for every single second of the cast at a rate of 300 words per minute I just get pissed/annoyed and mute them.
I disagree with the assessment that there is no need for play by play in eSports. The cameramen and the production crew present physical sports in generally much clearer ways then observers who ofttimes miss things do. I can clearly see Kesler is passing to Raymond whose carrying the puck up the wing and then getting pinched into the boards by Weber. That doesn't invalidate the play by play man's call of the play. I don't need the play by play when I'm sitting in Roger's Arena watching a game live because the crowd is providing a level of emotion and connection to the game. However, when sitting at home, it brings another level to the experience when I'm by myself or with a few friends/family watching the game.
Words can help enhance the experience and a good play by play man can generally up the level of a game if he's skilled at his job.
When it's 1v1 it's easier to see what's going on though. I shouldn't make this sports vs e-sports, it's team vs 1v1 and there's definitely not enough play-by-play in CS commentaries for example. You won't hear "Roger Federer is running to the right" in any tennis commentary though, they'll focus more on analyzing.
Being able to analyze a player's long term strategy is a more-than-adequate substitute for play-by-play since it will interest me and captivate me for longer.
One thing is that Idra is IDRA, he is a superstar. People will watch just to hear him commentate, his knowledge of the game is exceptional. I don't Think Totalbiscuit was attacking Idra in anyway but I was watching the same Casts from NASL personally I have to say if you were thinking of Idra cast with emotion and that "flare" than you sir must be crazy. He shouldn't try to fake it or I think it would have come off a lot worst than Idra trying to cast in his own style.
I admit the post came off as 1 sided as I expected people to read the link when I said I only quoted a snippit.
The article was saying IdrA has some good points as a caster, then TB posts his comment saying why IdrA isn't a good caster, and somehow that's ok because he's a "colour-commentator" then goes on to list things that IdrA did wrong (hence my "slam" claims). It just seems like he was bashing IdrA's casting while hiding behind the compliment that he isn't a caster (which isn't even TB's call to make). IdrA is a bad caster, but that's OK because I'm branding him as the colour-commentator. TB also makes this post sound like IdrA was casting NASL by himself, which he wasn't. He also makes assumptions on what the people want to see as well as their knowledge of the game: "Hardcore players will not learn anything from this. Casual players more often than not, don’t WANT to learn anything from this" in regards to calling an early GG and why.
Wow...how come 90% of the people here are not understand what TB is saying... this is no rocket science. He's not bashing Idra in any way whatsoever. WTF are you guys drinking? TB is the most awesome caster the in sc2 scene and he's completely right in his post.
I agree with TB and what he wrote. I like IdrA's insight but he's very boring and needs a good caster with him. Also it's very easy to spot who's an IdrA fanboy by scrolling through the first pages all the pages, people needs to learn how to read before they learn how to type.
Not to add to the TB hate, but it's pretty obvious he has no idea what he's talking about when he casts. It's incredibly obvious when he goes on these little side self-conversations about how a marine shoots and walks funny while missing important (and obvious) information.
Let's face it: tournaments like NASL cater to people who know how SC2 works. The vast majority of the viewers are aware of what a worker is and the fact that workers gather resources. Thanks for helping the few who don't out TB, but your casting is to put it quite bluntly, terrible.
I think total biscuit makes an excellent point about driving the excitement to the pinnacle being the GG. Thats how the korean commentators do it to such success, and thats whats going to drive the casual/non owners to actually watching a game, making it exciting. In other words the people that will actually make this a legitimate sport like it is in korea, not somethign that people who own the game enjoy and are the only market.
Some of my more recent annoyances with tastosis has to do with artosis calling every damn game 3 minutes into a game even if its a 30 min slug fest. Granted as far as casting goes I definitely don't rank them high as casters that get me excited over the game, in fact I mostly love them because they make me feel that mike and robots from MST3K are casting it as a stark parody on the screaming korean commentators in the background. Some of Tasteless' best moments even while he was somewhat of a solo caster were always done in him making fun of something seamlessly unimportant in a normally hyped up casting world, as in the panda bear moment.
A lot of people are willing to listen to some one like idra drone on about the semantics of a game and thats great lots of people would be happy to just have the games be constantly mulled over by a panel of experts.
Sports definitely get the best of both worlds because of their formats with plenty of timeouts breaks and pauses to allow for analytical relooks at the instant replay, where it usually cuts from the casters to some game nerd with a screen making highlighting marks over whose pass routes snuck through the defense.
Esports doesnt get this kind of luxury because the game is tailored to bring nonstop action. Theres no time out in the game for commercials or analysis or halftime reports.
If NASL really wants to push forward on handling this situation they're the best off for doing so with their recorded format. Imagine this: The game is commentated by the normal duo with a color and play by play commentator and it ends, now instead of the awkward two mins of staring at incontrol and gretorp awkwardly talk about the match as filler in between, the actually segway to their analysis expert so say some one like idra of day 9 or professor humpledink whatever and hes standing infront of a touch screen with the replay on those crucial moments and can draw out lines and circles on screen when what and where a player's micro/macro or defensive position really payed off in a particular moment like you see on nba or nfl game analysis.
On May 13 2011 16:36 Samhax wrote: I partially agree with TB, he is right when he says Idra should not tell the game is over, when the players are still playing the game. It's kinda anticlimatic. BUT i love idra's casting because he give some really good insight in term of strategy and the different paths a player could take to win the game. There is only one who have a smiliar value when casting, it's Artosis. And seriously i prefer a billion times casters like Idra or Artosis than someone who has a good energy and enthusiasm but don't have a clue about the strategies.
I think casters like Idra are good for the game but i don't think we gonna see more because you have to be really good at the game to cast like Idra do.
Casters that are really good at analyse the game are Artosis, Idra and Gretorp.
That's stupid. That's like an NBA commentator saying the game is close should the Lakers be beating the Heat by 30 points. It's not close and it's not exciting unless you're a fan of one of the participants and just want to see them roll face. Traditionally, people who do play by play are not loved but tolerated when they know their role and don't overstep it. This is why when you only have a person who is doing play by play for 85% of the game and analysing for 15% of the game people get turned off and have to mute the cast.
You also need to know the difference between a caster and a commentator, something TB tries to educate ignorant people on.
If you saw Idra cast you will know what i'm talking about, he is like ok this guy has a 10 worker lead, the other guy is done, i exagerated a little bit but it's quite how Idra is casting right now. he kills any possibility of comeback when he cast.
And i know the difference between a caster and a commentator, my point was i prefer commentators and we don't have enough of them. Pretty much Artosis and Idra who are good at commentating and maybe Gretorp sometimes but we have shit tons of casters who are good. And if i have to choose between casters and commentators i would take commentators every day!
On May 13 2011 16:46 Nyovne wrote:Excuse me but you and anyone else in this thread who shares this opinion obviously did not take the time to read the OP and is extremely oblivious. The man is a professional caster and by pretty much any standard really good at what he does and knows how to go at it and what actually revolves around casting.
What? It's an opinionated piece. By TB's standards, IdrA isn't a good caster and he is able to make these claims because people who enjoy TB's casting give him merit. I do no like TB's casting what-so-ever, and actually prefer IdrA's style casting, so I don't give a flying fuck what TB thinks a "good" caster should be doing.
And he's just trying to cash in on the attention surround IdrA at the moment anyways.
On May 13 2011 16:38 Aberu wrote: I think this was just TB trying to get back at EG. He had that problem with iNcontroL a while ago, and flew off the handle generating bad press for himself over and over. He's doing it again. I like TotalBiscuit, but I'm starting to dislike him with crap like this and where it brings his reputation.
This is a ridiculous notion. TB is much more professional than that. The entire debacle between him and Incontrol are essentially forgotten, except for a few people who somehow want to have a go at TB for no reason at all.
Not that I dispute your main point, but TB is definitely not "professional" when he posts on Reddit. He has a history of trolling, insulting and belittling when provoked.
There is a difference between strongly posting your opinions on a public form and digging up past and forgotten bits of drama.
IdrA casting is the best thing about the whole NASL. I want analysis, not some guy who cares more about his inflection than the actual words he's spouting. Maybe if TB actually was decent enough to appreciate IdrA's insight he wouldn't write stuff like this.
I read the whole thing and it comes off as TotalBiscuit trying to say in a very masked way that casting at an analytical level much lower than IdrA's is an okay thing or maybe even in some cases a better thing.
Personally, I think TotalBiscuit is wrong and this just reinforces how much he really has no clue about Starcraft commentary. People love IdrA's casting, LOVE it, because you get this feeling of knowledge like being around a really smart and wise professor. I will take that any day over the TA with a British accent that talks fast.
On May 13 2011 16:51 GummyZerg wrote: Trying to make something exciting where it's not would be like a baseball caster making a homerun call for a pop fly.
"Back...Back...Back... OOHHH AND HE CATCHES IT AT THE WARNING TRACK!!! SO CLOSE TO BEING THE SPARK THE TEAM NEEDED TO START GETTING BACK INTO THIS ONE"
On May 13 2011 16:52 hugman wrote: IdrA casting is the best thing about the whole NASL. I want analysis, not some guy who cares more about his inflection than the actual words he's spouting. Maybe if TB actually was decent enough to appreciate IdrA's insight he wouldn't write stuff like this.
On May 13 2011 16:36 Samhax wrote: I partially agree with TB, he is right when he says Idra should not tell the game is over, when the players are still playing the game. It's kinda anticlimatic. BUT i love idra's casting because he give some really good insight in term of strategy and the different paths a player could take to win the game. There is only one who have a smiliar value when casting, it's Artosis. And seriously i prefer a billion times casters like Idra or Artosis than someone who has a good energy and enthusiasm but don't have a clue about the strategies.
I think casters like Idra are good for the game but i don't think we gonna see more because you have to be really good at the game to cast like Idra do.
Casters that are really good at analyse the game are Artosis, Idra and Gretorp.
That's stupid. That's like an NBA commentator saying the game is close should the Lakers be beating the Heat by 30 points. It's not close and it's not exciting unless you're a fan of one of the participants and just want to see them roll face. Traditionally, people who do play by play are not loved but tolerated when they know their role and don't overstep it. This is why when you only have a person who is doing play by play for 85% of the game and analysing for 15% of the game people get turned off and have to mute the cast.
You also need to know the difference between a caster and a commentator, something TB tries to educate ignorant people on.
you NEED to keep it interesting, it is entertaintment, as soon as you give up the finale, people lose intrest and watch something else, YOU NEED TO KEEP THEM TUNED IN! calling a game 10 minutes before it ends makes me not want to watch anymore. when there's a hint of a miraculous comeback, as a casual gamer you'd be much more inclined to stay and watch. it's then the casters duty to keep you entertained for the rest of the match.
I just can't agree with this, and where do you draw the line? How long does Boxer have to fly his one medivac around on Tal'darim Altar with a 165 supply disadvantage to some Protoss before the caster says YEAH, THIS IS OVER!
I think Tastosis have it right, and also I really don't understand this fear of people turning off the stream "cos its over", for tournaments etc, this is when casters can talk about the next map if its a BOx series, or who the winner will face in the next round etc, there's no need to sugar coat things and basically decieve your audience when I think there is almost always plenty of actually interesting and relevant things to be said.
I see nothing wrong with this article, he's right. TB isn't shitting on IdrA at all, just calling it as he views it and I can't disagree with him. I love IdrA and his commentary but he has a personality / tendancy (not necessarily bad), to just dismisses a game if there is little hope of making a comeback, after which point he has 0 interest in the game (90%+ of the time rightly so, as the game IS over). Only thing is it doesn't really make the rest of the game interesting if he is 'over it' by that stage.
On May 13 2011 16:52 hugman wrote: IdrA casting is the best thing about the whole NASL. I want analysis, not some guy who cares more about his inflection than the actual words he's spouting. Maybe if TB actually was decent enough to appreciate IdrA's insight he wouldn't write stuff like this.
Did you even read it? If TB could appreciate idra's insight he would EXACTLY write something like that. Because appreciating the insight is exactly what he's doing in that post!
Gosh...the average IQ on this thread must be at about monkey level.
I don't understand why the OP made this thread here, it just stirs up more unnecessary drama. I would've rather you vented on the reddit thread then come here. what TB said was accurate and not as demeaning as you might think towards Idra. On a side note, that video was awesome =D
On May 13 2011 16:51 GummyZerg wrote: Trying to make something exciting where it's not would be like a baseball caster making a homerun call for a pop fly.
"Back...Back...Back... OOHHH AND HE CATCHES IT AT THE WARNING TRACK!!! SO CLOSE TO BEING THE SPARK THE TEAM NEEDED TO START GETTING BACK INTO THIS ONE"
Because that never happens...owait.
Of course that happens, but I meant more in a situation where it is obviously not a homerun. There are even moments in Starcraft where you don't know who will be the victor in a battle, but this isn't the point I was making. Perhaps I should have stated an infield fly. Oh well.
Excitement in close situations should obviously be the moments where it is necessary, not when something is so one sided. Casters shouldn't attempt to make unexciting moments exciting just for the new crowd.
TB has a point though I think it wasn't really directed at Idra and was more of a general statement of Casting.
Like any sport its really about finding the balance between the entertainment and the serious Analysis.
which is why teams like DJ-Wheat and Day9 work so well together. Because one can bring the entertainment factor keep the fans form getting to bored and day9 can bring a level of understand and learning for that entertainment.
You will find this common pairing in just about any major casting team.
I think someone should run a series of surveys to find out which style of casting the community wants as a whole. It would be interesting to see a TL poll on the topic, seeing as the vast majority of stream viewers are TL users too.
I thought Idra's commentary was brilliant on the NASL, as TB would put it, as the 'analytical caster' or play by play. He gave so much insight into games I thought nothing else could be said, and 100% of all other casters wouldn't have commented on.
I really disagree with TB - I learned a LOT of the game from idras commentary. I didn't find he was quiet at all, and unlike other casters he isn't blabbering about nothing when the action is slow (and he wasn't quiet at all, he had SO much insight into the game beyond what I've normally seen from NASL games, though I love gretorph and geoff).
There is no climax that is ruined by Idra calling an early gg. He is calling the game as it is, and we as the viewers are already being bored by a game that is continuing - he is only providing color when most casters would just drivel on about nothing. He puts so much excitement into a match JUST by pointing out when players are vulnerable.
Really disagree with TB's take that no one seems to appreciate analysis and that us platinum 'hardcore' players won't learn anything new anyways.
I swear to god TB draws flames like Apollo 1. He's not hating on IdrA (really), but people probably just read the second paragraph and freaked. Interesting insight from play-by-play to color commentator, but really nothing ground breaking. funny thread though.
On May 13 2011 16:59 hmunkey wrote: I think someone should run a series of surveys to find out which style of casting the community wants as a whole. It would be interesting to see a TL poll on the topic, seeing as the vast majority of stream viewers are TL users too.
I think the ideal would be a colour commentator + a play by play commentator together.
On May 13 2011 16:12 blade55555 wrote: For the casual Idra probably isn't a good caster too, to any player playing competitively or something he is amazing. His knowledge is just fantastic and that is why I love when he speaks. He knows what he's talking about unlike most commentators and its very refreshing honestly. Wish there were more casters like him ^_^.
Exactly. I am going to watch idra's commentary because it's the most insightful commentaties around, except his own stream commentating.
I watch pro games ONLY to learn the game better, I don't really care about "cool" casting or awesome games. I take idra's commentating over anyone else anyday.
Totalbiscuit's entire argument is flawed because it presumes that the skills which make someone a good sports commentator are also the skills which make someone a good SC2 commentator.
There is a reason why people who actually understand the game like Artosis, Tasteless, and Day9 are the commentators most beloved by the community. Once you dedicate even just a small mote of time to trying to understand SC2, play by play commentary suddenly becomes both stagnant and dull.
I'm not saying TB is slamming IdrA, since he isn't, but I don't like that he's saying "most of the audience is casual and doesn't care if the game's over 10 minutes before the GG, they're there for the entertainment." Yes, the people who watch his videos are just there to see explosions and aliens shoot at people, but the people who are watching GSL and NASL and TSL on a nightly basis are the people who are trying to learn the game and/or are genuinely interested in the strategic aspect. I feel like he has the idea that his own audience is representative of the SC2 audience as a whole, which couldn't be farther from the truth.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to talk shit about TB, because he, Husky, and HD bring in so many people who would otherwise be turned off by pro SC2, but he needs to understand that the people who watch his videos are not the same as the people who tune into tournaments on a regular basis; if anything, it's quite the opposite. The "casual" viewers are generally going to stick to watching the lower-level commentaries on YouTube, and the "hardcore" viewers are actually watching NASL every single night and staying up until 4 AM to watch GSL.
Also, if you're turned off by someone saying "yeah, the game's over, xxx is clearly ahead and should win," what the fuck is wrong with you? If someone is up 45-21 in an NFL game, the commentators will not hesitate to say "yeah the Dolphins need a miracle to win here." If you can't tell that someone has an advantage on your own, that's fine, but it's the caster's fucking job to explain what's happening in the game, it's not like it's ruining anything. TB is clearly wrong as hell on that point, I don't know where he gets the idea that a caster shouldn't explain what is happening in the game.
On May 13 2011 16:56 Vorlik wrote: I don't understand why the OP made this thread here, it just stirs up more unnecessary drama. I would've rather you vented on the reddit thread then come here. what TB said was accurate and not as demeaning as you might think towards Idra. On a side note, that video was awesome =D
Because I enjoy the IdrA/Day[9]/Artosis style casting and I guess it just seemed to me that this was a cheap shot by the TB/Husky style casting.
I just felt like he was saying that IdrA is a bad caster and should only throw tidbits of information in when there is a gap in the action. It came off to me as a shot at IdrA like "You can't cast by yourself, you need someone to be the main caster and you can only back him up, although I don't even follow the format that I've described to be good".
On May 13 2011 16:59 hmunkey wrote: I think someone should run a series of surveys to find out which style of casting the community wants as a whole. It would be interesting to see a TL poll on the topic, seeing as the vast majority of stream viewers are TL users too.
I think the ideal would be a colour commentator + a play by play commentator together.
I disagree. Yeah, I'd like another commentator who's more charismatic, but I don't know if I'd want them to be a purely play-by-play commentator. TB and to a lesser extent Wheat are known for just saying what's happening and nothing else, but I find that to be completely boring and pointless. I'm not blind. This is a video broadcast, not a radio one. It's completely useless for them to tell me what I'm seeing when I'm looking directly at it.
At the end of the day, IdrA knows exactly what's going on and gives us amazing analysis, but he's not charismatic or particularly good at talking. If he had a co-caster who was, they would be perfect. That said, that co-caster shouldn't be some play-by-play idiot but someone who also knows the game.
Granted i only read the first few pages of this thread, but i get the feeling most of you didn't actually read what TB said. He does not criticize Idra at all really, he is merely describing the two different casting jobs and that Idra suits the analytical part perfectly (aka Artosis) and should not be discussed or considered when talking about a play by play commentator (aka Tasteless) as they are 2 completely different roles.
He is completely correct in what he said by the way. Idra is an amazing analytical commentator and should be praised for it. However when it comes to casting the actual game going and creating excitement and tension that is left to the play-by-play caster as it should be.
You act as though the play-by-play / color commentator paradigm is some immutable law of casting that will always lead to inferior outcomes if deviated from, which is simply laughable. And if you're so interested at analyzing the flaws of casters, why not talk about Gretorp and Incontrol, who can both struggle greatly at times with just forming basic sentences and can't establish basic chemistry.
And those of you who don't see the ways in which this article bashes IdrA, albeit in a veiled, indirect manner... I can do nothing to help you.
IdrA is an excellent caster. And frankly I prefer his intelligent, reserved, well-spoken manner to the fake-excitement, word-vomit style that most casters employ. There is no need to try to inject excitement into the game. Personally, I find it cheap and irritating.
IdrA doesn't get people excited with his commentary. That's all that TB is saying. He explicitly said that IdrA's in-depth analysis is incredible, but that doesn't make him a great caster for the average person.
Put in the context of the post on reddit, this makes total sense. The person who posted the link made a suggestion to wannabe as well as current casters to look up to IdrA as a template for success. TB responded with a well constructed response. What's even better is that TB is right about what he's talking about. IdrA's casting style will NOT make anyone successful/popular as a caster because he just doesn't make it exciting (unless you're Day[9], but you're not). However, if you have someone like IdrA and another person working together (think HD/Painuser), that is a different story all together.
I think people forget that IdrA isn't the only one there. If you just imagined IdrA sitting there and blabbing on with his analysis for 3 hours straight, would you sit through it all? I think I would sit in for most of it because there is something to be learned. However, most people don't want to sit in for that. That's all that TB is saying, nothing more.
I admit that idra is NOT a good commentator. But we all have to remember that he doesn't have the training however, in IdrA's defence, we are not listening to him for commentary and as Incrontrol said himself, IdrA is giving us an anaylasis of the games so that we can understand the decision making of the players. TB has good comentary but I think he made himself look rather silly here as he did not take that into concideration.
However, TB was not so called " insulting/bashing/trolling" IdrA himself.
It's not even that people like HD and Husky are shallow... Sometimes it just seems like they are blatantly wrong.
Ideally you have someone who is engaging and knows the game well. At the end of the day, you only have so many options.
My preference: HD and Husky are horrible. djwheat is by far the best of the non-professional players. Mixing a professional and djwheat is my suggestion. Sometimes Idra, sometimes others. Just realize he brings to the table Incontrol cannot, and vice versa, so mix up the pros
On May 13 2011 16:13 _Darwin_ wrote: IdrA isn't a caster. And I PREFER the "yeah it's gg" as opposed to "NOW I WONDER IF THE 7 SCV TERRAN CAN REPRODUCE FAST ENOUGH TO TAKE ON THE 200/200 TOSS."
Similarly though, how many times have Tastosis called a game GG before the player turned it around and won? Calling early GGs is the worst thing to do, I'd sooner hear less genuine 'I wonder if he can turn this around' than hearing 'It's totally over if he defends this attack'.
I like TB and I like IdrA but I'm not sure TB understands the intrigue of IdrA as a caster. He doesn't do it full time for one, he is a pro gamer, of course he is not going to be amazing it at but he is an interesting caster and he says things as they are. TB, while being a very amusing caster with an awesome voice and funny commentary, doesn't analyze much at all, he just talks about what is going on at the time and nothing else.
On May 13 2011 17:07 Comogury wrote: IdrA doesn't get people excited with his commentary. That's all that TB is saying. He explicitly said that IdrA's in-depth analysis is incredible, but that doesn't make him a great caster for the average person.
And who is the average person? NASL viewers are by far people who have played SC2 or at least know the basics of the game. I'd actually be willing to bet the average NASL viewer knows as much if not more than TB about the game.
For this average viewer, having analytical commentators is a far better thing. SC2 isn't being broadcast on TV nor is this a more mainstream Youtube cast. People seem to forget that professional SC2 is an extremely niche market. Stop treating the viewers like they're dumbasses.
i love idras commentary. he makes it exciting and worthwhile to watch. granted he is not artosis, but give him a great game to freaking cast and he will get pumped.
TB is totally correct here. He is not bashing IdrA at all, its just that he isn't as good at building tension and suspense that professional play-by-play commentators are. Good exciting commentary can make anything sound good.
Should IdrA commentate? Yes, absolutely. His game knowledge is on par with the best in the world and his resume itself qualifies him for reliable analysis. He would be much better suited to be crossed to by a play-by-play commentator for analysis and then have the commetary passed back. Those snippets are given in every sport by a sideline commetator and this very much suits what IdrA could supply.
On a personal note I do enjoy commetary by IdrA but I do know that many of my lesser informed friends would find it less appealing. A lot of my friends, as well as myself, like listening to the Korean casters as they really build excitment despite not a single one of us being able to understand korean.
On May 13 2011 16:51 GummyZerg wrote: Trying to make something exciting where it's not would be like a baseball caster making a homerun call for a pop fly.
"Back...Back...Back... OOHHH AND HE CATCHES IT AT THE WARNING TRACK!!! SO CLOSE TO BEING THE SPARK THE TEAM NEEDED TO START GETTING BACK INTO THIS ONE"
Because that never happens...owait.
Of course that happens, but I meant more in a situation where it is obviously not a homerun. There are even moments in Starcraft where you don't know who will be the victor in a battle, but this isn't the point I was making. Perhaps I should have stated an infield fly. Oh well.
Excitement in close situations should obviously be the moments where it is necessary, not when something is so one sided. Casters shouldn't attempt to make unexciting moments exciting just for the new crowd.
It isnt just for the new crowd. And if you chose to lock yourself off from enjoying someone who makes an effort to keep every game entertaining, well, thats your fault.
There is a little thing called suspension of disbelief. It is where actors and storytellers in movies and television are able to do such a good job of portraying unrealistic situations that the audience is forced to stop limiting their awareness to real world situations and actually buy into the unrealistic scenes being presented. Good sci-fi movies like Star Wars do this: you buy into everything going on, even if you rationally know that light sabers arent realistic at all. Better examples are bad movies where you leave the theatre thinking the entire concept was stupid because you were never involved in the movie in the first place.
Casing and viewing needs to be viewed in this light. Limiting yourself from enjoying someone like TB who keeps games exciting and entertaining because it is meant for "the new crowd" just harms yourself: its a 1 way ticket to burning out on Starcraft. If you cant enjoy excitement, how are you going to enjoy dry analysis after 3 years of viewing?
Hell, I think casters need to show LESS. Stop showing the production tab. Stop flagging upgrades unless you are actually trying to build suspense for a timing push. There was one cast from the gsl, Clide vs someone, where the caster actually turned off the production tab. Clide won a battle and it looked like the zerg was dead. Only 15 ultras hatched and the zerg was right back in it. It was epic because it was so unexpected: limiting information made the game memorable.
If you find a situation in a game to be unentertaining, it is because the caster failed. They let you as the viewer have too much information. The suspense is gone. Boxer flying 3 dropships full of marines isnt very exciting if you know that that is all the army he has. But Boxer flying 3 dropships around can be very exciting if the casters dont tell you what the populations are. Or they raise their voices and inflection to increase suspense as the drop goes in rather than saying "well, this is it, all MC has to do is clean this up and he wins."
On May 13 2011 17:07 AKspartan wrote: You act as though the play-by-play / color commentator paradigm is some immutable law of casting that will always lead to inferior outcomes if deviated from, which is simply laughable.
He expresses a strong opinion on this simply because there is overwhelming evidence, anecdoatal and otherwise, that this really is the case. Sports across a multitude of countries use a mix of colour-commentators and PbP commentators, and some of the best examples of SC2 and BW commentating has been a combination of the two. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe even the Korean casting teams have a mix of PbP focus and analytical commenting.
Frankly, I fail to understand how anyone could consider this not to be the best possible setup.
On May 13 2011 17:07 Comogury wrote:. I think people forget that IdrA isn't the only one there. If you just imagined IdrA sitting there and blabbing on with his analysis for 3 hours straight, would you sit through it all? I think I would sit in for most of it because there is something to be learned. However, most people don't want to sit in for that. That's all that TB is saying, nothing more.
I think IdrA got up to 18k on his own stream when he was doing his own self commentary? :o
Hey, guys, just put down the top hat and monocle. Not everyone wants to be bored with in-depth analysis and be shown the "great intellect" needed to show how great this game is. Some of theses replies are oozing with pretentiousness, oh god. Lay off the caviar. It's a video game about aliens.
And not everyone is looking to improve their own game by watching VODs. You really should be looking at actual replays. There is a sticky thread in the strategy forum on how to analyze replays.
On May 13 2011 16:53 Dubpace wrote: I read the whole thing and it comes off as TotalBiscuit trying to say in a very masked way that casting at an analytical level much lower than IdrA's is an okay thing or maybe even in some cases a better thing.
Personally, I think TotalBiscuit is wrong and this just reinforces how much he really has no clue about Starcraft commentary. People love IdrA's casting, LOVE it, because you get this feeling of knowledge like being around a really smart and wise professor. I will take that any day over the TA with a British accent that talks fast.
He gives real world examples. It's clear you have no clue about sports broadcasting. He's actually interested in growing SC2 eSports, but I am aware not everyone wants that. So I guess Korea has been doing it wrong for the past 10 years or so.
On May 13 2011 16:56 Vorlik wrote: I don't understand why the OP made this thread here, it just stirs up more unnecessary drama. I would've rather you vented on the reddit thread then come here. what TB said was accurate and not as demeaning as you might think towards Idra. On a side note, that video was awesome =D
Because I enjoy the IdrA/Day[9]/Artosis style casting and I guess it just seemed to me that this was a cheap shot by the TB/Husky style casting.
I just felt like he was saying that IdrA is a bad caster and should only throw tidbits of information in when there is a gap in the action. It came off to me as a shot at IdrA like "You can't cast by yourself, you need someone to be the main caster and you can only back him up, although I don't even follow the format that I've described to be good".
You completely didn't understand anything TB said whatsoever.
On May 13 2011 16:59 hmunkey wrote: I think someone should run a series of surveys to find out which style of casting the community wants as a whole. It would be interesting to see a TL poll on the topic, seeing as the vast majority of stream viewers are TL users too.
I think the ideal would be a colour commentator + a play by play commentator together.
I disagree. Yeah, I'd like another commentator who's more charismatic, but I don't know if I'd want them to be a purely play-by-play commentator. TB and to a lesser extent Wheat are known for just saying what's happening and nothing else, but I find that to be completely boring and pointless. I'm not blind. This is a video broadcast, not a radio one. It's completely useless for them to tell me what I'm seeing when I'm looking directly at it.
At the end of the day, IdrA knows exactly what's going on and gives us amazing analysis, but he's not charismatic or particularly good at talking. If he had a co-caster who was, they would be perfect. That said, that co-caster shouldn't be some play-by-play idiot but someone who also knows the game.
Yeh I probably should have detailed play by play to be a more thoughtful kind of play by player who had some insight and mildly profound stuff to contribute as well. But yeh I do agree, mindless play by play would be horrendous.
On May 13 2011 17:07 Mojar wrote: Granted i only read the first few pages of this thread, but i get the feeling most of you didn't actually read what TB said. He does not criticize Idra at all really, he is merely describing the two different casting jobs and that Idra suits the analytical part perfectly (aka Artosis) and should not be discussed or considered when talking about a play by play commentator (aka Tasteless) as they are 2 completely different roles.
He is completely correct in what he said by the way. Idra is an amazing analytical commentator and should be praised for it. However when it comes to casting the actual game going and creating excitement and tension that is left to the play-by-play caster as it should be.
Yesyeyes! Makes me happy to see that others actually read the article and TB post. Feels like alot of people read the thread title and assumed TB was beeing BM at IdrA. My personal opinion; I like both styles of casting, a mix with one of each just like TB described in his post. And I would tune in to a event if it was IdrA casting or TB casting.
The problem I see it is that TB thinks that if you are the play-by-play guy, all you need to have a good cast is a color guy.
However if the play-by-play guy doesn't know what he is talking about when it comes to anything other than observing what is going on on-screen, that doesn't make for any good synergy with the color guy, since he is either going to have to correct him, or let the wrong information stand.
This is why Tasteless and Artosis are so good. They both have excellent game knowledge, but Tasteless is good at the play-by-play and rarely makes mistakes when he talks about the strategy stuff too. While Artosis had plenty of time to think about the deeper builds and strategy going into the game. The fact that they both can fill each roll is what makes them good, and that neither of them is deficient in an area.
Having two commentators from each side of the spectrum is not good enough in SC... you can't be an idiot when it comes to the game and get by on your speaking ability. You also can't not having commentating experience but be a genius because people won't connect.
he slams other casters for not knowing 'what true casting' really is and then derives some bullshit argument from watching a game as a 'high masters hell even diamond player' that will NOT LEARN ANYTHING EVER AT ALL if the caster doesn't hype the game like a monkey until one player ggs.
Well, guess what TB, you're a shit player (oh fuck i'm analyzing the situation), so you really shouldn't speak for the rest of us.
So really the point of this article is to say that Idra just needs a colorful commentator alongside him? And to do that, he starts off by saying "drA is not a good caster." ?? WTF - so he flames Idra, but then the problem isn't Idra, it's the fact he isn't supported by a color caster - or in other words, he hates Gretorp?
TB is either trolling and being inflammatory, or making a very thinly guised attack against Gretorp...
and if a player can come back from a "yea he should gg now" that makes it much more interesting - however Idra is simply too good to do that. I am pretty sure that a player of Idra's calibre would never call an early gg and be wrong.
I cant listen to TB's cookie cutter casting either.
Getty worded it perfectly... basically after you get past silver that simple style of entertainment casting becomes torture to your ears. I can kind of understand where people like TB are coming from when thinking of the super casual and new fans, I guess that is all good. But then criticizing Idra for casting how the majority of this community wants someone to cast is kind of funny. Especially considering how this community has shown you several times already how they feel about you TB.
If this community were the type to enjoy that simple kind of entertainment you put out, they wouldnt be playing Starcraft. At least that is how I see it. They would be playing LoL, WoW, or watching Pokemon or something.
TB is 100% correct. And face it, IdrA would be a terrible solo caster for any event. TB is in the Silver league, but he's a great caster because of his voice and his energy. He continues to pump out content, even though it's not the most popular on the channel, despite how the community has treated him. We just need 2 words - one for the guy with excitement and one for the guy with brains.
On May 13 2011 16:31 jalstar wrote: I don't think you can compare e-sports to traditional sports in terms of casting, and I really wish TB and others would stop doing it. In every sport out there, it's just as easy to score points when you're down by 20 as when the game's tied. In SC, leads build on leads and incredibly subtle things can change the flow of the game. Good commentary, like Idra, points out those subtleties and gives the viewer insight into the complexities of the game.
I also don't think there's any room for play-by-play. In traditional sports PBP adds something, whether it's the speed and type of pitches in baseball or formations in football. In chess or SC2 you're just re-stating things that are incredibly obvious to the viewer if you do PBP, so you need people who can analyze the game or you quickly run out of meaningful things to talk about.
Just my 2 cents.
I really agree with this post.
My opinion is that what makes starcraft II "exciting" for its viewers is not what's happening but the deep meaning behind moves that the masses can not understand. In physical sports like basketball, american football, etc, play by play is welcome because the excitement lies primarily in shots, catches, and other types of physically amazing feats. However, in starcraft, none of the physical stuff is all that amazing. Instead, what impresses the viewers is deep strategical moves and genius (similar to chess), whether or not they are fleshed out or not. Having a commentator to reveal these 'exciting' things that one can not see on their own is what a starcraft commentator should shoot for.
Play by play does have a place though. For example, key exciting moments that decide the game would be one situation where play by play is essential. It's natural to become excited over one thing that can make or break a game; therefore, play by play to amplify that excitement is good. However, play by play on mundane things really is just filler and should be last resort when lacking analytical comments.
This applies even to noobs. Even noobs can understand that the game is not based on what's physically happening on the screen. After all, it's labeled a "real time STRATEGY game". Even if newer players can not completely understand some deep strategical insight, they can appreciate other things like build order explanations and basic tactical maneuver explanations. However, even they should be able to tell when say a 200/200 army crashes into 10 scvs. It's just obvious from either playing or watching the game for even a short period of time. I don't think casting needs to have a lot of play by play to encompass newer players at all. Instead, it should have comments that provoke awe from newer players who never thought of that or strive to be able to understand strategy of that magnitude.
All that I mentioned above is still applicable to korean BW commentators. For example, they get excited by plagues and reavers because they are game changing situations. Of course they would get excited because a player turned around a game completely into his favor. If you watch normal plagues and scarabs when games are over, they don't really get excited. If you've ever viewed a translation of a BW game (for example, Hiya vs Boxer is one of the more well known ones), you can see that the korean commentators are filled with strategical comments, while being exciting. That's the base of their commentary, IMO, not their excitement. The excitement is like a supplement to go with that and has developed as BW gained live audiences and the like. There's actually very little raw play by play in korean casting except when filling time.
It's kind of late so what I said is a bit muddled, but this is basically my viewpoint and also what dictates my taste in commentators.
On May 13 2011 17:04 getty wrote: Totalbiscuit's entire argument is flawed because it presumes that the skills which make someone a good sports commentator are also the skills which make someone a good SC2 commentator.
There is a reason why people who actually understand the game like Artosis, Tasteless, and Day9 are the commentators most beloved by the community. Once you dedicate even just a small mote of time to trying to understand SC2, play by play commentary suddenly becomes both stagnant and dull.
You totally missed the point, also I find it hilarious that your comment was addressed in the initial post.
"Hardcore players will not learn anything from this. Casual players more often than not, don't WANT to learn anything from this. Different kinds of people watch SC2 for different reasons. SC2 has a substantial viewerbase that doesn't even own the game for god's sake, what do you think they tune in for? It certainly isn't to learn how to play better, they don't play at all. No, they tune in to watch one of the most, if not the most exciting eSport in the world and they expect it to be presented as such. It is impossible to get excited about a game that ended 10 minutes ago"
I wish everyone would read the OP and stop saying who they like better, or which commentator the community prefers when in fact it was never the point of his comments.
Methinks that Diggity gave a great opinion about the issue in a comment from the Reddit thread:
[–]diggitySC 34 points 7 hours ago TB beat me to it I think the core issue is the target viewer. There are two camps: the player who watches a game to get better, and the viewer who watches the game to be entertained. I would assume that the writer of the article hails from camp 1. Idra is a hardline commentator for this audience. As TB pointed out his commentating mechanics are not there, though its generally not something that the audience at large notices consciously. The core issue is camp 1 style of commentary often times sacrifices camp 2. I would argue that we need both camps for Sc2 to be a successful spectator "e-sport". Additionally I personally do not believe that the standard style of color and play by play is a suitable solution for sc2 casts. In theory an ideal commentator would be capable of molding a commentary into something that is extremely appealing to both crowds. I feel that I strike middle to low in both sides of the equation at the moment. However I constantly strive to improve my method and delivery in pursuit of "the perfect cast". I have done my best to hone my art within strict time constraints. I believe I am a better caster now than I was last year and I believe I will be a better caster in 3 months than I am now. I am certain the Total Biscuit seeks to improve his casting ability in the same manner. He has actually inspired me to improve my baseline mechanics and excitement level. In the meantime I would ask that the SC2 community not treat casters as though they exist in an isolated box. We are dynamic people who constantly improve and change in response to the feedback we are given. As a result we desperately need continuous and focused feedback in order to take it to the next level. However we need this feedback to be intelligent and enlightened. Asking that every caster be capable of winning the GSL is unrealistic. Asking that every cast end when the match is notably decided is unwise.
On May 13 2011 17:07 AKspartan wrote: You act as though the play-by-play / color commentator paradigm is some immutable law of casting that will always lead to inferior outcomes if deviated from, which is simply laughable. And if you're so interested at analyzing the flaws of casters, why not talk about Gretorp and Incontrol, who can both struggle greatly at times with just forming basic sentences and can't establish basic chemistry.
IdrA is an excellent caster. And frankly I prefer him to totalbiscuit.
And those of you who don't see the ways in which this article bashes IdrA, albeit in a veiled, indirect manner... I can do nothing to help you.
Inferior? 100% opinion based,
But its the most basic set up,
every major casting team for pretty much every major sport uses the same basic casting set up,
He left out the part where some people have certain likes and dislike about people's voices. IdrA's voice may be on the dull side but at least it isn't completely grating on the ears. Just because you have a whacky voice doesn't mean you can commentate and the masses will like it.
I do not quiete agree, Idra of course lacks some casting qualities because he is not used to it. If he would get into it more he would be one of the best. I really like Idras game insights and ideas that he contributes to the cast. And to total biscuit: I dont like his "fugly" voice and he is lacking insight in casting SC II.
So let me get this straight. Some e-sports-scene caster with a great voice, who is a newbie in starcraft2 gives advice in casting to a guy who is playing this game(s) essentially since the beginning and on a professional level; who was invited to guest-cast/moderate high level starcraft games because said invitee was not... euphoric enough for the casters taste?
Since I did look Totalbiscuit up on youtube (totally didn't know who that guy was) I got the impression of a god-given moderation voice, but it also appeared to me that he got some personal issues after I saw him cast this very post that OP quoted. (That cast by the way was technically horrific and I felt a bit embarassed for totalbiscuit).
On a productive note I want to add that Idra is full time pro. No one can expect some veteran casting from him since he has no experience whatsoever doing it. Idra however has great game insight and knows his strategies which is why I thought NASL invited him for.
Also I do not regard Totalbiscuits post as "bashing" or "smacking" or whatsoever - I regard his tips to be pure waste (Idra does not need improving his casting since he is not a caster) and guess that this was just some deed to get some more attention.
On May 13 2011 16:56 Vorlik wrote: I don't understand why the OP made this thread here, it just stirs up more unnecessary drama. I would've rather you vented on the reddit thread then come here. what TB said was accurate and not as demeaning as you might think towards Idra. On a side note, that video was awesome =D
Because I enjoy the IdrA/Day[9]/Artosis style casting and I guess it just seemed to me that this was a cheap shot by the TB/Husky style casting.
I just felt like he was saying that IdrA is a bad caster and should only throw tidbits of information in when there is a gap in the action. It came off to me as a shot at IdrA like "You can't cast by yourself, you need someone to be the main caster and you can only back him up, although I don't even follow the format that I've described to be good".
You completely didn't understand anything TB said whatsoever.
Yea, I guess I did. To me it was all TB making up stipulations on how people should cast SC2, which according to him it should be cast more like action sports and less like an RTS.
90% of the posts in this thread make absolutely no sense at all. I am now dumber for reading it. TB is 100% correct. Both casters need to have different qualities and idra's qualities obviously fit into color commentary. I haven't watched much of the NASL but if idra has been providing play by play then something wrong is happening.
On May 13 2011 16:51 GummyZerg wrote: Trying to make something exciting where it's not would be like a baseball caster making a homerun call for a pop fly.
"Back...Back...Back... OOHHH AND HE CATCHES IT AT THE WARNING TRACK!!! SO CLOSE TO BEING THE SPARK THE TEAM NEEDED TO START GETTING BACK INTO THIS ONE"
Because that never happens...owait.
Of course that happens, but I meant more in a situation where it is obviously not a homerun. There are even moments in Starcraft where you don't know who will be the victor in a battle, but this isn't the point I was making. Perhaps I should have stated an infield fly. Oh well.
Excitement in close situations should obviously be the moments where it is necessary, not when something is so one sided. Casters shouldn't attempt to make unexciting moments exciting just for the new crowd.
It isnt just for the new crowd. And if you chose to lock yourself off from enjoying someone who makes an effort to keep every game entertaining, well, thats your fault.
There is a little thing called suspension of disbelief. It is where actors and storytellers in movies and television are able to do such a good job of portraying unrealistic situations that the audience is forced to stop limiting their awareness to real world situations and actually buy into the unrealistic scenes being presented. Good sci-fi movies like Star Wars do this: you buy into everything going on, even if you rationally know that light sabers arent realistic at all. Better examples are bad movies where you leave the theatre thinking the entire concept was stupid because you were never involved in the movie in the first place.
Casing and viewing needs to be viewed in this light. Limiting yourself from enjoying someone like TB who keeps games exciting and entertaining because it is meant for "the new crowd" just harms yourself: its a 1 way ticket to burning out on Starcraft. If you cant enjoy excitement, how are you going to enjoy dry analysis after 3 years of viewing?
Hell, I think casters need to show LESS. Stop showing the production tab. Stop flagging upgrades unless you are actually trying to build suspense for a timing push. There was one cast from the gsl, Clide vs someone, where the caster actually turned off the production tab. Clide won a battle and it looked like the zerg was dead. Only 15 ultras hatched and the zerg was right back in it. It was epic because it was so unexpected: limiting information made the game memorable.
If you find a situation in a game to be unentertaining, it is because the caster failed. They let you as the viewer have too much information. The suspense is gone. Boxer flying 3 dropships full of marines isnt very exciting if you know that that is all the army he has. But Boxer flying 3 dropships around can be very exciting if the casters dont tell you what the populations are. Or they raise their voices and inflection to increase suspense as the drop goes in rather than saying "well, this is it, all MC has to do is clean this up and he wins."
I don't understand your point about suspension of disbelief and comparing it to star wars or movies, seems like a stretch to prove your point. I see what you're saying though, I understand that a caster wants to make moments exciting and keep me in the game, the problem is that most of the community knows when something boring is happening. That's the point I was trying to make. I'll also never get burned out on watching Starcraft, I've been watching Starcraft since broodwar came out. I'll never burn out. But that's beside the point, I'm also not sure how I feel about casters "showing less" I think everyone wants as much knowledge about exchanges and build orders as possible.
please people read the original post before fanaticly defending your idols.
so i am the only one who would like to see idra and TB dual cast after that ? TB is great caster (watch his WTF serias if you havn't) idra is a graet analitic comentator
they are both blunt and direct there could be great fireworks during the cast (think of old style WWF commentating)
, seriously here i think they have a big boom potential , ipl/NASL make it happen ! i will pay ^^
Well this proves it. Most of sc2 community are not able to look at things objectively. I'd call this praising rather than bashing anyday. Just because he's the best analyst doesn't mean he's the best in every caster criteria, which is what the text said obviously,.
On May 13 2011 17:07 Comogury wrote: IdrA doesn't get people excited with his commentary. That's all that TB is saying. He explicitly said that IdrA's in-depth analysis is incredible, but that doesn't make him a great caster for the average person.
And who is the average person? NASL viewers are by far people who have played SC2 or at least know the basics of the game. I'd actually be willing to bet the average NASL viewer knows as much if not more than TB about the game.
For this average viewer, having analytical commentators is a far better thing. SC2 isn't being broadcast on TV nor is this a more mainstream Youtube cast. People seem to forget that professional SC2 is an extremely niche market. Stop treating the viewers like they're dumbasses.
And what's wrong with doing that? Some people really are dumbasses that just want to watch a damn game and get excited about it. That's kind of hard when idiots like the person who posted the link on reddit say everyone should be just like IdrA.
It feels like you don't want SC2 to break out of the niche market. If everyone were to cast like IdrA, only people like people on TL would be interested in SC2. What it needs to grow is more people that cast in a way that excites its audience. You want the community to cater to a viewership that already exists. How in the world is the game going to grow if that happens?
I don't get it. I see this as three paragraphs of TotalBiscuit saying Idra isn't good, which, let's be honest, we all know, but he's still amazing either way. Then TB just goes onto saying something about what a play by play commentator is.
I don't claim to be a fan of TB, quite the opposite; I can't stand him. However, I don't see why people are getting angry for him saying Idra is bad, even though we know that, and don't care. (Thats my view on Idra's casting anyway)
On May 13 2011 16:12 blade55555 wrote: For the casual Idra probably isn't a good caster too, to any player playing competitively or something he is amazing. His knowledge is just fantastic and that is why I love when he speaks. He knows what he's talking about unlike most commentators and its very refreshing honestly. Wish there were more casters like him ^_^.
This.
It is so refreshing not to have artificial herp derp when a game is over. You can still enjoy the game, knowing it is over. Thinking you have to hide this from the casual fan base is pretty stupid imo. I think trying to make the casual viewers better at understanding the game will benefit all.
The OP is pretty terrible as it rips TB's post out of perspective. Don't take me wrong, I don't particularly like TB and disagree with his points, but he is NOT discussing IdrA's casting directly, but rather replying to Jeff (whoever that is) writing about how amazing IdrA's casting is, which I also disagree with.
I feel the truth is more in the middle: IdrA often GGs too soon ingame and bringing that over to casting could be very detrimental to the enjoyment of the match. However, trying to hype up a game that is clearly over and one player is just hanging in there with his 1base 10scv vs. 5base opponent lacks sincerity. Sometimes it's necessary to just admit that a player has been crushed and just talk about something only semi-related. It's what happens in soccer (if a match is 6-0 ahead in the 80th minute nobody wonders whether the opponent can stage a comeback, at most a single goal to salvage their honour, but nobody really cares anymore).
As for talking about a match when it's boring, that should definitely be done: you should try to hype up the exciting bits in a boring match. A terrible TvT tankline vs. tankline with horrible micro and people attacking straight into tanks can still be made interesting if the casters just focus on the death and destruction bits. Just as a terribly boring football match can be made somewhat entertaining by the commentators hyping up some players' play (maybe referring to other matches, but still giving you hope that something magical will happen when he gets the ball).
I'm rather disappointed that this article did very little to substantiate it's claims, but allow me to try and provide a counterpoint anyway.
IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion. He is however, an analyst of exceptional skill and calibre, easily one of the best in the business. He should be lauded for this however the distinction must be made there.
IdrA is a colour-commentator. He fits all the criteria, he is analytical, he is there to provide background and extensive game knowledge, based on experience as a current/ex-player. He is there to fill in time when the play-by-play commentator is not talking and as a knowledgeable resource to back up the play-by-play commentator, who is more often than not, not a professional player/coach/ex-player, but a professional broadcaster.
Of the listed commentators in the IPL, there was 1 colour commentator (Painuser) and 4 play-by-play commentators (HD, DJWheat, Catspyjamas and myself). This was in itself a problem and is not the correct setup, something that all the casters have acknowledged publically and are doing their utmost to resolve (to the point where Apollo may be moving in with me temporarily if we are chosen to cast IPL 2, doing all my assigned matchs with in-studio co-commentary).
Now onto the main point of this article, the idea of 'telling it like it is'. This is fairly ironic in itself, since casters frequently get criticised for doing such shallow things as telling people what's going on. Half the time it seems some hardcore viewers have an Inception mindset "WE HAVE TO GO DEEPER!", demanding almost precognitive casting and metaphysical insight. Lasers may also be involved.
It is not the play-by-play casters job to tell you when a game is over, it is the play-by-play casters job to heighten tension, provoke emotion and increase the viewer's excitement. You cannot do that by calling a game before it ends. The climax of a game should be the GG, regardless of whether or not it's blatantly too late. You call a GG 10 minutes before it actually happens, even if it's absolutely the right call, then you stop engaging a good portion of your viewers, specifically the majority of the viewerbase, the casuals who are there for entertainment. In-depth analysis in sports is generally done post-game, not mid-game. There is definitely space for analysis, plenty of it, but drowning a viewer in 10 mins of in-depth analysis of how Player A fucked up while the game is still going on in the background, will turn off the casual viewer.
I should also point out that it is not dishonest to avoid calling game over before it actually happens. You can without question explain that the situation is very bad for Player A with a wide variety of colourful synonyms and language. However, let us consider the viewing demographic.
Your average master's league player, hell even high diamond, is definitely analytical enough and knowledgeable enough to see when it's over. He does not need to be told that it's over. He will not learn anything from being told that it's over. I refer to this sentence at the end of the article
"Don’t be afraid to tell us when a game is over, or when players aren’t playing like they deserve our attention. Do so, and your audience will only gain a better understanding of the game."
Hardcore players will not learn anything from this. Casual players more often than not, don't WANT to learn anything from this. Different kinds of people watch SC2 for different reasons. SC2 has a substantial viewerbase that doesn't even own the game for god's sake, what do you think they tune in for? It certainly isn't to learn how to play better, they don't play at all. No, they tune in to watch one of the most, if not the most exciting eSport in the world and they expect it to be presented as such. It is impossible to get excited about a game that ended 10 minutes ago, when you've just had the fact rubbed in your face by the casting team. It is possible, if you are a skilled play-by-play caster, to keep the tension up, particularly when there are more casual, less knowledgeable viewers watching. You do not have to lie to them, but you don't have to tell them it's done 10 minutes before the GG either. By all means, have the analyst explain why Player A is in such a bad situation and the decisions that lead him up to this point (although I really think some of that should be saved for post-game commentary, a'la sports), but as far as I'm concerned, calling an early GG is a mortal casting sin and should be avoided at all costs.
Just my two pence folks. It's a nice opinion piece but it lacks perspective on what casting actually is, as well as being from an obviously niche viewpoint which, while it should be catered to without question, is not the only way to look at things, nor even the majority view.
Anyone else see this and think "wtf, who is this guy to call out another caster when you're only shining point is your voice"?
He does not "only" shin with his voice! His voice is so mcuh more then just a voice. It brings you fun, it brings you excitment and it brigs you entertainment. So in short it brings you all this what u want from a commentator. TB knows his bussines well! He may not be the best colour - commentator but he understands the commentating it self pretty good and also he has the skills to show us all how good he realy knows it! So dont say his only shining point is his voice ... it might have been long time ago but he evolved around it and made the best thing happen out if it : FUN and ENTERTAINMENT!
"It is not the play-by-play casters job to tell you when a game is over, it is the play-by-play casters job to heighten tension, provoke emotion and increase the viewer's excitement. You cannot do that by calling a game before it ends. The climax of a game should be the GG, regardless of whether or not it's blatantly too late. You call a GG 10 minutes before it actually happens, even if it's absolutely the right call, then you stop engaging a good portion of your viewers, specifically the majority of the viewerbase, the casuals who are there for entertainment. In-depth analysis in sports is generally done post-game, not mid-game. There is definitely space for analysis, plenty of it, but drowning a viewer in 10 mins of in-depth analysis of how Player A fucked up while the game is still going on in the background, will turn off the casual viewer."
The job of casters is to entertain, and nothing else. Whatever you find entertaining is subjective. Some people are into the more energetic style you describe. Others, like me, want brass tacks analysis. So from my point of view, there's nothing wrong with saying that a game is over before the other player leaves because that's simply the fact. I find it condescending and silly when a player has absolutely no chance, yet the casters continue as if there is any tension left in the game.
In short, the premise of the OP presumes that everybody wants the same thing as he from the casters.
Idra's casts are dull sounding. That guy couldn't get worked up unless it's about balance(only time I've ever seen him raise his voice) it seems he's got the really dull monotone thing going on just calling it how he sees it. This is a guy I want watching a replay and telling me what went wrong, not the guy talking to me trying to get me excited and into the game.
Obviously Idra is not going to go into casting and he's doing this out of willingness to help or some such but I suppose it's okay to tell him how he can improve on his casting. Believe it or not I'd love to listen to Idra more if he felt like he actually cared but honestly it sounds like he's answering a email about a replay he just watched half the time. I dunno, maybe it's just me.
TB has every right to tell him he can improve because he can and if he's going to cast more it'd behove him and the viewers if he sounded more into it. Ya know?
TB isn't slamming him, he's just explaining how he can do better. If someone tells me how I can play better I take the advice and see if it works why should it be such a big deal that TB is giving advice to Idra on casting?
Hmm, the basis of his response seems to be that he is speaking for the majority's opinion and since I don't have sufficient statistics on the subject; I don't think I'll be able to directly dispute that claim. Instead I'll try to just give my some-what opposing opinion.
From my own experience, I have never understood this idea that casuals want excitement and hardcores want knowledge. I can't imagine anything less exciting than watching something, having no idea what is going on, and just listening to a person be excited about it.
I don't watch sports much, but when I do, I absolutely love it when there is an analyst to really explain what's going on. It helps me so much. I'm able to really get an appreciation for what's going on and the strategy/skill involved in it. Occasionally this is not the case, though, and I'm stuck listening to just play-by-play. It just becomes a big mess to me and as a casual viewer, I'm quickly turned off by it because I have no way of appreciating it.
I have to imagine that casual viewers of StarCraft feel like this to some extent too. You don't need someone to tell you what you're seeing, you need someone to explain to you why. Without the why, what draws a casual viewer to keep watching?
I guess my point I'm trying to make is that I'm questioning the truth behind the common claim that casuals do not appreciate/want analysis. I just can't follow the logic that would make this the case.
I value play-by-play to some extent as well, but I just don't think it's value is comparable to what you get from analysis.
I guess we'll see how things turn out over time. Perhaps we'll find a better way to gauge the opinion of the community to really get an idea of what they're looking for in casts. I'll just keep on enjoying Idra's casting in the meantime, though.
On May 13 2011 16:51 GummyZerg wrote: Trying to make something exciting where it's not would be like a baseball caster making a homerun call for a pop fly.
"Back...Back...Back... OOHHH AND HE CATCHES IT AT THE WARNING TRACK!!! SO CLOSE TO BEING THE SPARK THE TEAM NEEDED TO START GETTING BACK INTO THIS ONE"
Because that never happens...owait.
Of course that happens, but I meant more in a situation where it is obviously not a homerun. There are even moments in Starcraft where you don't know who will be the victor in a battle, but this isn't the point I was making. Perhaps I should have stated an infield fly. Oh well.
Excitement in close situations should obviously be the moments where it is necessary, not when something is so one sided. Casters shouldn't attempt to make unexciting moments exciting just for the new crowd.
It isnt just for the new crowd. And if you chose to lock yourself off from enjoying someone who makes an effort to keep every game entertaining, well, thats your fault.
There is a little thing called suspension of disbelief. It is where actors and storytellers in movies and television are able to do such a good job of portraying unrealistic situations that the audience is forced to stop limiting their awareness to real world situations and actually buy into the unrealistic scenes being presented. Good sci-fi movies like Star Wars do this: you buy into everything going on, even if you rationally know that light sabers arent realistic at all. Better examples are bad movies where you leave the theatre thinking the entire concept was stupid because you were never involved in the movie in the first place.
Casing and viewing needs to be viewed in this light. Limiting yourself from enjoying someone like TB who keeps games exciting and entertaining because it is meant for "the new crowd" just harms yourself: its a 1 way ticket to burning out on Starcraft. If you cant enjoy excitement, how are you going to enjoy dry analysis after 3 years of viewing?
Hell, I think casters need to show LESS. Stop showing the production tab. Stop flagging upgrades unless you are actually trying to build suspense for a timing push. There was one cast from the gsl, Clide vs someone, where the caster actually turned off the production tab. Clide won a battle and it looked like the zerg was dead. Only 15 ultras hatched and the zerg was right back in it. It was epic because it was so unexpected: limiting information made the game memorable.
If you find a situation in a game to be unentertaining, it is because the caster failed. They let you as the viewer have too much information. The suspense is gone. Boxer flying 3 dropships full of marines isnt very exciting if you know that that is all the army he has. But Boxer flying 3 dropships around can be very exciting if the casters dont tell you what the populations are. Or they raise their voices and inflection to increase suspense as the drop goes in rather than saying "well, this is it, all MC has to do is clean this up and he wins."
I don't understand your point about suspension of disbelief and comparing it to star wars or movies, seems like a stretch to prove your point. I see what you're saying though, I understand that a caster wants to make moments exciting and keep me in the game, the problem is that most of the community knows when something boring is happening. That's the point I was trying to make. I'll also never get burned out on watching Starcraft, I've been watching Starcraft since broodwar came out. I'll never burn out. But that's beside the point, I'm also not sure how I feel about casters "showing less" I think everyone wants as much knowledge about exchanges and build orders as possible.
The point about suspension of disbelief was my analogy to being connected and entertained by the game presented. A good storyteller, which is what a caster is, is able to keep you connected to the game at all times, no matter what is going on. You might rationally know in some part of your head that a player is going to lose, but a good caster is able to get you to shut that voice up and enjoy the game.
As for showing less, I feel it is a great tool to utilize when casting. Choosing what information to divulge when casting is a great way to build excitement. Perfect information is boring. Who is going to watch a match if they know exactly what is going to happen. The reason sports are so great is because they are unpredictable. In the extreme case of a heavily one sided game, limiting information is incredibly useful in making it seem not so one sided and a little less predictable.
Idra's casting is absolutetly over the top. This is also the reason his, and Sheth's streams are two of the most popular streams on the scene - they give a good insight on the game, instead of just commenting current situation with.
Idra's casting is absolutetly over the top. This is also the reason his, and Sheth's streams are two of the most popular streams on the scene - they give a good insight on the game, instead of just commenting current situation with.
Idra doesnt talk during his streams, and sheth and idra are popular because they are the only good zerg streamers, relax with the fervor there buddy.
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I don't get how he can say anyone is a play-by-play commentator, though. No one in SC2 does that sort of commentary. I mean watch a baseball or hockey game, watch how a play-by-play commentator does it. They're called "play-by-play" for a reason. Someone like Artosis/Idra are as close to that as we have in the SC2 community, their knowledge of the game is ridiculous. Either one of them can discern what a player is doing by the most minute changes in their build... there is no other commentator that can do that to the same level they can.
Color commentary is far more rampant in the SC2 community, someone who will try more than anything else to be entertaining (the ironic part of that entire post is this basically epitomizes how TB casts. He clearly isn't going for the analytical view that only leaves the entertainment (color) commentary for him. Idra clearly isn't someone who is trying to be entertaining when he casts, he's trying to relate exactly what is going on in the match, what each player is doing and what they are doing wrong.
Idra is just being himself. If he's not doing a good enough job they'll take him off the air. If they don't, he'll gradually improve from experience. That's really all there is to it.
On May 13 2011 16:56 Vorlik wrote: I don't understand why the OP made this thread here, it just stirs up more unnecessary drama. I would've rather you vented on the reddit thread then come here. what TB said was accurate and not as demeaning as you might think towards Idra. On a side note, that video was awesome =D
Because I enjoy the IdrA/Day[9]/Artosis style casting and I guess it just seemed to me that this was a cheap shot by the TB/Husky style casting.
I just felt like he was saying that IdrA is a bad caster and should only throw tidbits of information in when there is a gap in the action. It came off to me as a shot at IdrA like "You can't cast by yourself, you need someone to be the main caster and you can only back him up, although I don't even follow the format that I've described to be good".
Comparing the casting of Day9 and Artosis to Idra's is imho completely wrong.
Day9 and Artosis are the perfect mix of entertainment and analysis, whereas Idra is certainly an analytical-only caster.
I find this debate very interesting as it kind of might determine in which direction SC2 will go to in the future. I imagine a lot of bronze, silver and gold leaguers to follow the competitive scene without having an analytical or intellectual access to it. In other words: They just consume pro games like people who never really played soccer, but still watch the World Championship for entertainment's sake, do.
And then there is this 2 to 5% of master's league players where 50% of them believe that SC2 is too casual, too noob friendly and being dumbed down by Blizzard to please the masses. And I consider a lot of these people to favor Idra's commentating over a more emotional and enthusiastic way of casting. Anyhow, I kinda get the impression that these people forget why SC2 has become so professional in such a short time: It is because a lot of people care for this game and not only a small circle of BW-elitists.
If you want SC2 to become big so that players can actually make a decent living of it, if you want your big leagues and tournaments to stay as big and professional as they are, then accept that SC2 and all entertainment related to it has to appeal to a broad group of people - including those who don't care about analysis and just want to hear TB or Husky screaming into the mic.
One last thing to wrap this up: There is a reason why Day9 and Artosis are so much loved by the community. They are the only two I can really think of who bring these two worlds of casual and ambitious players together. They are no pale nerds from the dark basement room, they are cool guys who provide both passion and insight to anyone following their commentaries.
Idra's casting is absolutetly over the top. This is also the reason his, and Sheth's streams are two of the most popular streams on the scene - they give a good insight on the game, instead of just commenting current situation with.
Idra doesnt talk during his streams, and sheth and idra are popular because they are the only good zerg streamers, relax with the fervor there buddy.
He talked for a few days this past week...because he lost a bet on state of the game
i love idra's casting, i even think to a point where when he says one sentence, it has the value of more than a paragraph of words from different casters. people have different opinions about things, but drama for things like these should stay outta the sc2 community. just creates bad blood between people.
This just makes Totalbiscuit sound like a tool, complaining like a little girl about how there may actually be demand out there for a style of commentating that involves skills he doesn't possess, trying desperately to persuade his market not to turn against him.
On May 13 2011 16:59 hmunkey wrote: I think someone should run a series of surveys to find out which style of casting the community wants as a whole. It would be interesting to see a TL poll on the topic, seeing as the vast majority of stream viewers are TL users too.
Nah they should force a pop-quiz covering the OP before people are allowed to post.
TB makes a good point. He tells it like he sees it (which ironically is earning him hate from Idra fans).
I personally like Idra's analysis, as I'm sure others who take the game a bit more seriously do as well. But TB's point on play-by-play casting is valid. It's there to appeal to a broader audience and fulfills the notion of spoon-feeding the audience, which happens in every sport (except maybe tennis because they're not allowed to). Casual players watch to be entertained; TB makes the point that the article he is commenting on misses that point and presumes (without much evidence) that blunt honesty and analysis is everything that casting should be.
TB isn't really a good caster himself, he just shouts (literary) about everything without knowing anything at all which in longer SC2 games it just get bothersome/annoying in a sense. I do though recognize that there are times where mouthdiarrhea is good but it certainly isn't in SC2 (outside short rushed games).
Just to clarify I'm not talking Husky mouthdiarrhea, TB is on an entirely different level.
I understood TB's comment different from most of you.
I think TotalBiscuit tries to say that if Idra has no good play-by-play caster at his side, he will satisfy only a small portion of the possible viewership. In an reddit audio interview, TB stated that he would like to cast with a colour commentator at his side. He does not think that pure play-by-play is optimal, either.
It seems people just look so hard for reasons to get upset and angry over nothing. Idra from a technical sense is not a great caster. This is a fact of course and this is what TB dedicates most of his argument to. Reading the article he equals the term good caster to the technical qualities of the job. He is not incorrect to do so although it is a limited approach as well, but not a big deal.
Idra's stream is so popular because he is one of the most popular and best in the world and on top of that he is doing commentary. He is popular as a caster because it's a high level player expressing his thoughts.
Whether or not you think this allows you to call someone a 'good caster' doesn't matter. You can take the approach that these things make a good caster, or you can take the approach that from a technical point of view he is not a good caster. It doesn't matter at all, and anyone arguing about this article is pretty much only arguing semantics without knowing it.
A semantics discussion shouldn't be turned into such an issue.
On May 13 2011 17:31 [F_]aths wrote: I understood TB's comment different from most of you.
I think TotalBiscuit tries to say that if Idra has no good play-by-play caster at his side, he will satisfy only a small portion of the possible viewership. In an reddit audio interview, TB stated that he would like to cast with a colour commentator at his side. He does not think that pure play-by-play is optimal, either.
This. You all need to get new glasses if you think this is TB flaming/w/e IdrA.
Idra's casting is absolutetly over the top. This is also the reason his, and Sheth's streams are two of the most popular streams on the scene - they give a good insight on the game, instead of just commenting current situation with.
Idra doesnt talk during his streams, and sheth and idra are popular because they are the only good zerg streamers, relax with the fervor there buddy.
Idra talked during almost the entire last week. His number of viewers rose in an impressive fashion as soon as he started to do that.
Idra may lack the vocal skills of many established casters but he definitely brings something to the table that we have seen little to nothing of.
As a caster with little greed for the spotlight but says things that are concise and to the point, I believe he is one of the few (if not only) casters in a major English casted tournament that would work perfectly in a 3 person casting group. He says very little but you know that he has experienced most situations first hand and can give very good insight to the players mindset going into the next game. If we know the mistakes of the player and the points in which he loses momentum and control of the game we can then identify how on tilt he may be in the next game or how much he has stepped up his game.
Idra is a rare gem in the international casting scene and would not have to put much more effort in to developing his casting ability to be up to par with other casters. As a caster, Idra certainly possesses a harder to attain talent that distinguishes him from others as well as a personality that can definitely keep the standards of player skill high in a league. Who doesn't like the pessimistic caster that down talks bad plays and decisions but will rise to the occasion when something truly amazing happens? His co-casters can hype each game up but you'll truly know something you're watching is a golden moment of sc2 when idra gets excited and praises a player.
On the topic of calling out that the game is over and lost, i agree with TB that saying the game is over ruins the hype. But I believe this is just a result of inexperience and that as Idras casting improves so will the timing and phrasing of what he is saying. If Idra were to identify to the viewers as well and his fellow casters that the battle to come is the deciding battle of the game we would be able to actually see a climax to an already fast paced epic game rather than be led along to believe that that battle is as exciting as when the players split their workers.
To sum my post up, Knowing how the game took place, flowed and how risky each play and each decision is can give as much hype going into the ace match as the most exciting play-by-play caster. Casting is a team effort and Idra is that magical 3rd member with that unique casting personality and unrivaled game knowledge that we have been all missing out on.
Grack the Diamond in the Rough Caster fighting~!!!!!!
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I don't get how he can say anyone is a play-by-play commentator, though. No one in SC2 does that sort of commentary. I mean watch a baseball or hockey game, watch how a play-by-play commentator does it. They're called "play-by-play" for a reason. Someone like Artosis/Idra are as close to that as we have in the SC2 community, their knowledge of the game is ridiculous. Either one of them can discern what a player is doing by the most minute changes in their build... there is no other commentator that can do that to the same level they can.
Color commentary is far more rampant in the SC2 community, someone who will try more than anything else to be entertaining (the ironic part of that entire post is this basically epitomizes how TB casts. He clearly isn't going for the analytical view that only leaves the entertainment (color) commentary for him. Idra clearly isn't someone who is trying to be entertaining when he casts, he's trying to relate exactly what is going on in the match, what each player is doing and what they are doing wrong.
You have the terminology wrong. The color commentator is the analyst. The Play-by-Play-commentator is the entertainer. Read the wikipedia-entries TB provided.
On May 13 2011 17:22 Befree wrote: I have to imagine that casual viewers of StarCraft feel like this to some extent too. You don't need someone to tell you what you're seeing, you need someone to explain to you why. Without the why, what draws a casual viewer to keep watching?
Sometimes you need someone to tell you what you're seeing. Even moreso than in football (where all the commentator really has to do is say the name of the player and can then wax euphoric about how good his passing is or whatever), SC2 can be a very complex game at times with 50 things going on at the same time. A commentator who is able to point out the important things happening is an important asset in such games. Not everybody likes to peer obsessively at the minimap when just watching a match and if there's a major battle, two drops and tech going on at the same time it's great to have someone point that out!
Wow. I've been repping the "color commentary" plus "play-by-play" commentary for so long. Posting on so many threads and so many streams. It's what I liked about IPL (although they only had 1 play-by-play caster many times), and I thought was terrible about other leagues e.g. GSL, NASL, because 2 analysts who don't speak quickly and fluently to describe WHAT is actually going on is just boring. Half the time the "analysis" isn't even game related.
It's like "Hey, you talk for 2 minutes, and then I'll talk for 2 minutes. Let's get the action wrong. Let's completely predict the wrong person is winning (e.g., Gretorp saying Moman was behind although Moman had 70 to 15 harvesters and 150 to 65 food today in his match against Sjow. Gretorp, <3 you, but if you see that you're wrong, just say it and don't drag it out. Just say Oh wait,my mistake, clearly Moman is in the lead sjow is banking 1000 minerals, not macroing, and has 15 scvs.). Let's waste everyone's time by talking about Starcraft 1 BroodWar Strategies (Artosis: Oh, my God! This reminds me SO much of ______etc. etc. etc. Hey, Artosis, <3 you. But talk about the game! You're missing stuff bc of tangents like that!) Let's miss the drops the observer is showing us (thanks, great obs out there). Instead of talking about the 2 competitors' actual openings, we will whine about popular openings that are destroying us on ladder. Let's theory craft what he could do next instead of what he's doing now." Thanks for that guys.
Holy shit, I'm so sick of it, I don't watch GSL anymore. I love Artosis and Tasteless, but I am really over commentators commentating live games like they're casting some replay on Youtube.
That being said, I find it interesting to note that TotalBiscuit disqualifies Idra as a play-by-play commentator, actually, as a commentator in general (before he describes the distinction), only to point out that a play-by-play commentator's litany of duties (quite the condensed version of TotalBiscuit's statement, but accurate).
Now, that being said, we can clearly deduce that TotalBiscuit isn't talking specifically about Idra then, as he clearly states Idra is NOT a play-by-play commentator. So he's not bming Idra or nothing, he's just using his position as a great play-by-play commentator to tell everyone the distinctions that should exist in "commentating" replays or live events. Casting is not the same as commentating. Commentating is an established profession that demands exactly what TotalBiscuit is saying.
So don't hate TotalBiscuit for bringing the truth guns out. He's being honest, pointed out flaws in the IPL he himself casted in, and wants commentary to improve. He's not dissing Idra, and if he is, please read closer! Keep it up in the IPL!
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I don't get how he can say anyone is a play-by-play commentator, though. No one in SC2 does that sort of commentary. I mean watch a baseball or hockey game, watch how a play-by-play commentator does it. They're called "play-by-play" for a reason. Someone like Artosis/Idra are as close to that as we have in the SC2 community, their knowledge of the game is ridiculous. Either one of them can discern what a player is doing by the most minute changes in their build... there is no other commentator that can do that to the same level they can.
Color commentary is far more rampant in the SC2 community, someone who will try more than anything else to be entertaining (the ironic part of that entire post is this basically epitomizes how TB casts. He clearly isn't going for the analytical view that only leaves the entertainment (color) commentary for him. Idra clearly isn't someone who is trying to be entertaining when he casts, he's trying to relate exactly what is going on in the match, what each player is doing and what they are doing wrong.
You have the terminology wrong. The color commentator is the analyst. The Play-by-Play-commentator is the entertainer. Read the wikipedia-entries TB provided.
Yea, read the wiki that has nothing to do with esports or a strategy based game. Which is basically what I have an issue with in regards to TB's breakdown of how SC2 should be commentated.
95% of the people responding didn't even read the article
He's not saying that IdrA shouldn't be casting. He's saying IdrA is not going to bring excitement and hype the game, but his place is to analyze ( while casting.. ) and he's better with another commentator who can hype up more. It's like Gretorp tries to make the game entertaining but he'll often ask IdrA a question about the game or what he thinks of a certain situation and get the insight of a progamer, that's all TB is saying.
On a side note, I don't like TB's voice and I don't like hearing him cast lol, I don't like any of the SC "hype" commentators, like if you aren't good at the game you can't get me excited about it =\
I agree that idra is horrible "play by play" caster, but i dislike play by play casting anyway. So i enjoy his analysis based casting. I find it mindblowing that he can call the game outcome 5 minutes before gg. I agree it's kind of a buzzkill, though.
About the TB's comment, there are many assumptions about 'average viewer', which i don't think are 100% true.
Also, TB mentions that post analysis can be done, which is true. But i don't want to spend another 20 minutes watching the same game being analysed. Which is also why i enjoy listening to idra type of casting. It's exciting enough for me while highly educational. But i can see how this can be considered a 'nitche market'.
Seems reasonable. IdrA is great for filling in information and providing insight, but extremely weak in mechanical aspects like voice, flow, interaction - general 'casting' stuff. He's gotten better in the last few days but he's still narrating more than commentating.
Not much to cause a fuss over, it's an obvious observation.
On May 13 2011 16:36 Thoramas wrote: People in this thread seriously need to take a chill pill and re-read the context.
TB is not saying A>B or B>A.
He's saying A is different from B and A+B (read: 2 people working together) = profit.
Maybe I'm misreading him, but I got the complete opposite impression... while TB points out the merits (and flaws) of both casting styles, his main complaint seems to be the lack of synergy between the two.
A: Player one has suffered heavy losses! Now he needs to reinforce fast to brace himself for the inevitable attack against his expo! Can he make it? Will he be able to get enough troops in time? Right here, he is putting up defensive structures, but will they finish before the attack of player two gets rolling? B: No... player one is pretty much done unless player two goes afk now. Though player one will be able to hold back the attack wave that's coming, in order to do so, he'll have to delay his tech so much that player two will steamroll him five minutes later. A: Erm... spoilers, man?
TB's entire point seems to be that it is impossible for him to get the crowd excited if Idra's analysis is too good.
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I don't get how he can say anyone is a play-by-play commentator, though. No one in SC2 does that sort of commentary. I mean watch a baseball or hockey game, watch how a play-by-play commentator does it. They're called "play-by-play" for a reason. Someone like Artosis/Idra are as close to that as we have in the SC2 community, their knowledge of the game is ridiculous. Either one of them can discern what a player is doing by the most minute changes in their build... there is no other commentator that can do that to the same level they can.
Color commentary is far more rampant in the SC2 community, someone who will try more than anything else to be entertaining (the ironic part of that entire post is this basically epitomizes how TB casts. He clearly isn't going for the analytical view that only leaves the entertainment (color) commentary for him. Idra clearly isn't someone who is trying to be entertaining when he casts, he's trying to relate exactly what is going on in the match, what each player is doing and what they are doing wrong.
You have the terminology wrong. The color commentator is the analyst. The Play-by-Play-commentator is the entertainer. Read the wikipedia-entries TB provided.
Yea, read the wiki that has nothing to do with esports or a strategy based game. Which is basically what I have an issue with in regards to TB's breakdown of how SC2 should be commentated.
Uhm, it explains the casting terminology so that people could stop calling the COLOR ANALYST a play-by-play commentator and the other way around. Like the guy I was talking to. How does CASTING terminology not have anything thing to do with a discussion about casting? Open your eyes click the link and read what color commentator means and what play-by-play commentator means.
I wouldn't mind skipping the play by play commentators altogether. I dont want to have people screaming and talking fast like a madman just about what everyone already sees. It doesn't add to excitement or anything for me. It's just annoying.
Right now, Idra and Day9 are the only casters who offer analysis that is (imo) sophisticated enough for those who are only interested in analysis. Even Incontrol, Artosis, and Gretorp are a bit lacking in that department.
So I find it really annoying that someone would criticize Idra for only focusing on analysis. Do we really want more casters like TB for the sake of the supposed average viewer?
Edit: Btw, the people who say that Idra could improve on his vocal skill and that kind of stuff don't understand that it's mutually exclusive with color commentary. It would sound ridiculous for him to yell like TB while talking about strategy.
What's funny is you guys don't realize that he's doing this as a publicity stunt. He knows that IdrA's casting is much more valuable for anyone above silver league, and that it'll stir shit in the community. You're just giving him more attention.
On May 13 2011 17:46 ihavetofartosis wrote: What's funny is you guys don't realize that he's doing this as a publicity stunt. He knows that IdrA's casting is much more valuable for anyone above silver league, and that it'll stir shit in the community. You're just giving him more attention.
On May 13 2011 17:43 Drium wrote: I'd take IdrA's casting over TotalBiscuit's any day.
I'd take stone silence over TB any day. He makes some decent points i guess, but i find it difficult to give credence to anything he says about casting since he's awful himself. Of all the overrated commentators in esports, he's the one i least understand the popularity of. Oh look, he has an interesting (irritating) voice and shouts a lot... great...
He is EVERYTHING wrong with esports commentary in one unusually-voiced package.
I also find it kind of amusing that he tried to make exuses for knowing basically nothing about esports and SC2 by adding "i'm a play-by-play guy." Right, that makes it okay doesn't it? What a joke. And then.. "but a Wiki says so," seriously, his popularity makes my brain hurt.
Idra's casting is absolutetly over the top. This is also the reason his, and Sheth's streams are two of the most popular streams on the scene - they give a good insight on the game, instead of just commenting current situation with.
Idra doesnt talk during his streams, and sheth and idra are popular because they are the only good zerg streamers, relax with the fervor there buddy.
Idra talked during almost the entire last week. His number of viewers rose in an impressive fashion as soon as he started to do that.
I don't like any of the play-by-play casters, except for maybe Day9 since he's a bit of both. I think they're mainly just annoying and use dry jokes, but then again, I am probably a minority. I've had the same thoughts as totalbiscuit about Idra's casting but I still watched every vod with him casting because his insight far outweighs anything else.
On May 13 2011 17:46 ihavetofartosis wrote: What's funny is you guys don't realize that he's doing this as a publicity stunt. He knows that IdrA's casting is much more valuable for anyone above silver league, and that it'll stir shit in the community. You're just giving him more attention.
Well played, TB.
This is blatantly inaccurate. You are essentially making up lies.
TB is 100% correct, he explains it very well in the article that most people here haven't looked at. I don't think even Idra would call himself a caster/PbP.
Total Biscuit is actually a terrible caster and most of what he says is plain wrong. You should NOT by hyping up a game when it is already over, and you should absolutely not do play by play commentary in a vacuum, especially if you are solo casting. How is injecting tension into a game when one player is clearly dead good for the longterm success of the Pro scene? Should we be keeping newer audiences in ignorance instead of building up their understanding of the game so they can appreciate it more?
In the US alone can anyone think of one national league that isn't chock full of analysis. While one commentator in a duo will do play by play as important events unfold, BOTH commentators play a role in the analysis explaining why what happened jsut happened, why it was good or bad, what insight or observations the players had led them to the decisions they made and what kind of skill those decisions and their execution displays. Commentators give important snap shots of the state of the game at crucial times and explain where each player is and what they can or can't do to come back or clinch the win.
While TotalBiscuit is somewhat right in that Idra lacks a lot of technical casting skills, it doesn't matter much because his analysis is so good. Meanwhile TotalBiscuits analysis is so glaring vacant to the game that he is an absolutely terrible caster. He isn't entertaining to anyone who knows what is going on, he actively keeps those who don't in the dark, he's just plain bad for the scene.
On May 13 2011 17:46 ihavetofartosis wrote: What's funny is you guys don't realize that he's doing this as a publicity stunt. He knows that IdrA's casting is much more valuable for anyone above silver league, and that it'll stir shit in the community. You're just giving him more attention.
I totally agree with what TB is saying about ending the game before it's actually ended and balancing the excitement etc. As said before, it's almost as if each type of caster caters for a different audience. The more experienced players will want to hear more Idra, whereas people new to Starcraft (or ESPORTS!!) will probably enjoy someone like TB/Husky.
It's worth noting that I got into watching streams and commentaries through Husky. I found him entertaining and knowledgeable. Then I outgrew him, seeking less screeching and more accurate knowledge. I think it is the natural path.
Long story short, both types have their place in the promotion and growth of Starcraft. The screeching castes pull them in and then the knowledgeable casters grow their knowledge and involvement.
I do think that it's up to the "play by play" casters to ensure that their knowledge is at least up to scratch though - It's pretty much insta-mute when I hear "HE IS BEING SNEAKY, HE IS GOING TO 4 GATE" when it very, very obviously is not a 4gate for example. I do find that extremely annoying.
Why the hate on TB for pointing out how most professional commentators operate (color/play by play pairs) and pointing out that IdrA is an amazing color commentator.
I don't mind either styles, the only thing that makes me sick is commentators who say "oh yeah this is pretty much over" prematurely. There are times where it is true, but some commentators call it early in some cases, then end up being wrong when a critical mistake is made by a player.
I really don't like anything that is solo casted really. There are very few people who can both invoke great emotion and be really analytical (There are exceptions but that is not my point)
I think that future events really need to get themselves sorted out and use a 2 person casting duo that balances well. One of each type described in TB's original monologue.
I also think that what you like to watch depends on what you are looking for. I am a Master Terran and I love people getting really in depth so that I can learn new things. I do however have friends who are bronze and just wanna see stuff get nuked while someone shouts about it!
Maybe Idra and TB should team up! And cast something together, I would pay to watch it!
I enjoy Idras casting alot actually, for me he is the perfect "expert caster" as we would say in Sweden, the guy that talks somewhat less but analyzes alot and gives insight to how players are thinking etc.
I have watched a couple of games in IPL when Totalbiscuit casts and I have to admit that I mute, I just don´t like his castingstyle, infact he represents alot of what I hate in casters. He talks too much and tends to overhype stuff, he seems to lack knowledge of the game, to me it´s just alot of babbling and nothing interesting. I can imagine that Totalbiscuits castingstyle may appeal to people who are new to the game and if he can get new ppl to watch the game then thats great.
I like SC2 casting duos who have a relaxed casting atmosphere like Tastosis in GSL, Demuslim + Apollo at the Dreamhack Stockholm invitational and Idra + Incontrol/Gretorp(Incontrol + Gretorp have grown on me aswell, they have improved alot) in NASL, for example.
On May 13 2011 17:44 PJA wrote: Anyone who doesn't agree with TB's analysis should learn some basic reading comprehension before they post.
Why? =P.
I disagree with which casting method he finds suitable for starcraft. I read it but disagree.
The casting methods usually don't work on their own. They work together. Which is why TB is saying Idra should work with someone who does play by play while idra does analysis.
TB judging IdrA as a play by play, rather than a color commentator is rather silly. I'd rather listen to IdrA's boring bland monotone voice be correct and provide some kind of substance and understanding of the game than someone scream that a baneling exploded.
Guys, please. There's room for TB and IdrA, and plenty of room for others, who either want to cast, or are put in a position, to do so.
I too, am firmly in the camp that TB is bringing up some very good points. Listen to IdrA, listen to TB, and realize that these are completely different styles. But as good as IdrA is, it's true that when IdrA just calls "it's a GG" when the game's hasn't ended yet, TB is totally right: the masters and diamonds amongst us see and agree with IdrA, but for the casuals and bronzies amongst us, the game's no longer interesting to watch anymore. I mean, IdrA called it, and who are we to doubt him? Might as well switch the channel right? That's a bad thing.
When you take a look at IdrA's commentary on some of his old games, he's rapid fire, moves the screen at an extremely fast pace, and at times speaks so quickly that if you're not focused, he's simply too fast(reference to his Big Foot Networks games). He's incredibly intelligent and a person could learn eons of material from him, but I have to agree: he's the "smart" guy, not the color commentator guy.
Idra's analysis is great. In my mind he's the best and part of that is because with him being such a great current player he has a level of credibility that other player/casters do not have. Not even Day9 or Artosis do. I've not seen these guys compete at the top level of SC2. Their BW accomplishments are worthlesss to me in analysing current play. They could be completely out of touch and i wouldn't neccessarily know. But Idra is there in the trenches, he gets it.
But he's boring and lacks any emotion. He's said many times that he's in this for the competition. That plus his monotone casting makes me wonder if he actually gives a shit. Day and Artosis clearly give a shit. Look at the SC v Nestea series. Much like a hot crowd at a pro wrestling event, a caster who is so emotionally invested in a series adds so much to the drama. It was a great series, but i think it was made so much greater with Artosis being Artosis.
Now if Idra could bottle a little Artosis passion, pour it into his dusty care cup and chug that shit down, i think we'd have a pretty imba caster on our hands.
Until such a time, we've got a rather disinterested sounding guy who is super fucking smart.
I love analysis too, the student in me demands that. But i completely agree with TB on this one. I really really hope Idra can improve. God it's a scary thought how great he could be.
IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion. He is however, an analyst of exceptional skill and calibre, easily one of the best in the business. He should be lauded for this however the distinction must be made there.
I dunno, that pretty much qualifies as "slamming" in my book. Not sure why he had to write that comment to begin with. Casting is hardly IdrA's day job, we should just be happy that he does it at all. (Note: I am not an IdrA fanboy in general) And this coming from the possibly most annoying caster of all time, a.k.a. the Pee Wee Herman of esports casting. Boo.
On May 13 2011 17:44 PJA wrote: Anyone who doesn't agree with TB's analysis should learn some basic reading comprehension before they post.
Why? =P.
I disagree with which casting method he finds suitable for starcraft. I read it but disagree.
The casting methods usually don't work on their own. They work together. Which is why TB is saying Idra should work with someone who does play by play while idra does analysis.
So ketomai's point still stands.
I feel like they work for action based sports, I don't think they fit in strategy based games. That's a large part of my arguement, TB is saying that IdrA has a bad style of casting. I think that his casting is fine because it fits the style of the game. Again I'd agree with TB if this was football or soccer or another fast spaced sport, but imo strategy games, and even esports in general shouldn't be handled like actual sports.
On May 13 2011 18:01 Swineflew wrote: I feel like they work for action based sports, I don't think they fit in strategy based games. That's a large part of my arguement, TB is saying that IdrA has a bad style of casting. I think that his casting is fine because it fits the style of the game. Again I'd agree with TB if this was football or soccer or another fast spaced sport, but imo strategy games, and even esports in general shouldn't be handled like actual sports.
On May 13 2011 17:56 oursblanc wrote: IdrA gets more viewers than anyone else in SC2.
He must be doing something right.
He isn't saying he is doing anything wrong. He is saying he excels in one element of casting, and can stand to benefit from being partnered with someone who excels in play by play.
Do schools even teach reading comprehension anymore? It is like you people read the 1st few lines of what was written, and nothing further.
Also not hard to get a lot of viewers when you are considered one of the top players in the world for your race. That alone will get you a huge amount of viewers, no matter what you do.
how the fuck can TB actually compare idra to a play by play caster? hes fucking clearly an analytical caster unlike total biscuit who cant even clear silver league. come on man, this just makes you look even worse. It was clear to me during idras nasl casting that Gretorp was the play by play caster as idrA has much more game knowledge(casting wise, gretorp is a great player) to throw out to the audience.
Ive worked in TV throughout my career and TB is right. There are not many good casters and if you put Idra next to a real play by play you would get a much better experience.
He wasnt bashing Idra so put your knickers away before you twist them up.
He was stating the truth because, love him or hate him TB has actually taken the time to refine his voice and is constantly improving his technique. Why, because he understands that there is a lot of technique and methodology to being a commentator. If you prefer the more technical guys fine but to say that the guy isnt good is missing the point. TB could be doing this on TV, Radio etc for many sports and has the skills required.
Idra provides some very good insight into the game, and he is way better than INcontrol imo because everything he says doesnt revolve around him, but until youve heard him with a good play by play then dont knock this feedback.
I enjoy TotalBiscuit casting, but I know that's useless to expect commentary about the subtlety of the game. He is very much a play by play commentator only.
I agree to some extent to the point made by others that play by play doesn't really fit Starcraft 2 as well as other sports, since mistakes accumulate and evening out the score isn't possibly in many scenarios unless your opponent really mess up, while in a soccer game, being down by 4 goals is extremely hard, you can by brilliant play, without mistakes by your opponent, come back.
What I didn't like personally in the post made by TotalBiscuit is where he said: "IdrA is not a good caster". I think, I wouldn't have any problem with it if he said he is not a great caster, and continued with the exact same argument. Many though, and I am one of them, do believe that Idra's lack of skill / experience as a caster, monotone voice and all, is offset enough by his brilliant analysis and exceptional understanding of the game so that he, overall, is quite okay. Even good. As a color commentator, for sure, but - that's being a caster too. It's not just the play by play commentaters that are "actual casters", in my view. And I feel that TotalBiscuit somewhat let it shine through that he thinks only "play-by-play" are "real casters". Which I disagree with.
To compare to other casters, I think that Tastosis are in a class of their own. They actually make each other better, and together have great understanding of the game. When I watch Day[9] and DJWheat, I find that Day[9] alone is to me more entertaining. Husky clearly lacks the experience to understand what's important in the game, but is very entertaining to me. HD is a better player, and I feel that it's obvious compared to Husky, but he is also quite a step down from Artosis and Day[9] when it comes to game understanding.
DoA and Moletrap, I don't feel have any real connection. They make each other worse than they are on their own, sadly enough. Kelly, I felt was quite good and entertaining - just sadly, her accent, made her hard to understand for me since english isn't my first language. I found her to be responsive and able to work with what the other person was saying combined with what was actually happening in the game. Which I miss when I watch DoA and Moletrap.
Some make a distinction between those watching to be entertained, and those watching to learn from it. I feel that's the wrong way to look at it. I believe everyone is watching the games to be entertained, but those with a very good understanding of the game, build orders, etc, find their enjoyment ruined by the casters mistakes. I am nowhere near awesome, and I used to be worse, and when I was worse, what Husky & others that aren't good players said about strategies and what was happening sounded good to me. Now I am slightly better, and often cringe when they try talking about builds and who is behind or ahead, since I can see it's often clearly and obviously wrong. I have no doubt that those at the mid masters level and above, find many more mistakes in what casters say than I do, and is even less amused by play-by-play commentating that's clearly wrong.
Don't get me wrong. I find myself enjoying the occasional crota, husky, hd, totalbiscuit casting. Just, some parts of what they say is often so clearly wrong. And, if you watch sports, I would disagree that the "GG" should be the highlight of the game. The whistle at 90 minutes in soccer isn't the highlight if one player scored a hat trick in the first half and a 4th goal at 64 minutes that killed the match. The highlight of the game should be what is actually the highlight. The color commentators job is to identify it, and draw attention to it, and the play-by-play commentators job is to ... not contradict it and try to keep it interesting when it clearly isn't.
In Starcraft 2, build orders, positioning, expansions, money management, unit compositions, multi tasking, flanking, multi-pronged attacks, income, etc etc is all part of what decides the winner in the end.
If someone goes 6-7-8-9 pool, fast gas, buildings scouted and cancelled, proxies, hidden expos, etc, that is really really important, and the consequences of those actions should be brought to immediate action, as well as possibilites of what the plan is.
Where Tastosis is awesome, is that they know enough about the game to immediately catch on in the early game and draw mostly the right conclusions when they see someone do something. It's not nearly as entertaining when someone keeps talking about what's happening, and speculating and being clearly, clearly wrong (you see someone doing roaches and +1 range attack before lair, lair is started, and you say "I hope to see mutas" ... that's just ... weak).
Anyway, too long, but ... I feel that TotalBiscuit had some good points, but he set himself up for some flames by the simple statement "is not a good". I am sure he thinks that is correct, but ... some people appreciate those qualities that Idra bring enough that to them, he is actually okay, or even good.
And, to hype stuff regardless of whether or not it's worth hyping ... that's just, wrong. If it's over, it's over. Might as well talk about how well the person that is winning is doing, and why, instead of pretending it's still close. People that aren't good players, can still recognize bullshit and I doubt they are entertained by it that much.
On May 13 2011 16:13 Ksi wrote:Better get your flamesuit on, Totalbiscut. Considering how much TB is hated by this community, this will not end well.
What basis do you have for saying this ? Some people like him, some people don't. If he was generally hated he would just stop. He is popular with the MLG organisers and the IPL people. They want him to cast for them. Do you think they want him out of spite to the viewers ? No. Obviously he is popular enough to stick around. Its posts like this that makes me sad for the new community. It lacks any other content than your opinion, which you brand as "the whole communitys opinion".
If you want to know what happens to casters that are generally unpopular, search around for BigT.
Totally disagree with TB's point. IdrA gets me more excited for the games than TB/Husky does. It's not boring at all, and it's super entertaining.
When i watch something, i know what's going on. What gets me excited is when IdrA/artosis/whoever explains why this is good or bad, and all the different possibilities and outcomes of something.
And also i find it really annoying when a game is clearly over and the commentator just keep rambling on about stuff instead of just calling it. If the game is over and it just drags out, then the game was bad, not the commentator.
So yea i feel like commentators like IdrA are better in every sense, even play by play. Still enjoy TB or Husky casting though, but IdrA is just so great at it. (and IdrA/gretorp is actually one of my favorite combos ;D)
This is a post that is very likely to be taken wrongly, mostly because people weren't calling IdrA a play-by-play caster. I don't think very many people who watch Starcraft know all of these terms that apparently matter to Totalbiscuit.
I don't know anything about professional casting to know that there has to be a "play by play guy" and an "analyst guy." We thankfully had Tastosis show us that basically from the very beginning.
Since I don't know these different terms, I consider them both to be "casters" or "commentators" interchangeably. This is why "Idra is not a good caster" right off the bat sets the mood all wrong in my head.
Good read by TotalBiscuit. The main problem I see within e-sports commentating, especially starcraft II commentating is that there is a wide variety of people watching the matches. I'd say the % of hc-gamers to casual gamers is a lot higher than in other sports. The more common and "professional" approach might be better for the casuals but can also be a huge turn off to the hc-people. Well I guess time will show.
I've not heard Idra cast a game yet, but I totally agree with the GG situation, TB kept mentioning sport in his reddit posts yet in a sport like Hockey/"soccer" you wouldnt overhype a game if a team was 3-0 down with 5 mins to play metaphorically speaking.
For me TB doesn't cut it for me as a Caster for 2 reasons - Not experienced enough, He's a Gold level player for a reason, a level where ladder games just consists of all-ins meaning he hasn't witnessed a proper game 1st-hand yet - you can also tell just by watching his stream, I'm only a Gold level player myself but the games always consist of a 2/3 rax all-in or the occasional 1/1/1 and when he gets an absurd amount of resources he just builds anything which costs whatever hes stocked up on with no forward planning - He gets completely lost if the initial push fails in a nutshell.
2nd reason is witnessed first-hand by myself since I'm from the same city as him is his accent - Everyone outside the UK who I talk to hates my accent so it's no surprise there really
I do enjoy watching his stream for entertainment purposes, I don't learn anything from watching him and I enjoyed watching the iSeries tournament but I don't enjoy watching the high-level games and I think he has no right to criticise Idra for that.
On May 13 2011 17:58 RmoteCntrld wrote: TB judging IdrA as a play by play, rather than a color commentator is rather silly. I'd rather listen to IdrA's boring bland monotone voice be correct and provide some kind of substance and understanding of the game than someone scream that a baneling exploded.
I don't know, screaming and yelling seems to attract a lot of viewers in Korea (and in the US). PLAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYGGUUUUUUUU!!
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
"IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion. "
Thats being an ass. Publicly just pointing out peoples shortcomings is being an ass. And what is the point of all of this? To make him look bad? To make TB look better?
"TotalBiscuit is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too ignorant, he is frequently oblivious to game situations, he talks about irrelavant parts of the game in his speech, he doesnt know when to quit talking, and he lacks the ability to convince the audience that he has any more clue whats going on in the game than they do"
On May 13 2011 17:46 ihavetofartosis wrote: What's funny is you guys don't realize that he's doing this as a publicity stunt. He knows that IdrA's casting is much more valuable for anyone above silver league, and that it'll stir shit in the community. You're just giving him more attention.
Well played, TB.
This is blatantly inaccurate. You are essentially making up lies.
Well, that's my opinion. I think its pretty subjective, but making up lies??? I would argue that many would agree with my statement.
On May 13 2011 17:56 Slyce wrote: I think he makes some really valid points...
I really don't like anything that is solo casted really. There are very few people who can both invoke great emotion and be really analytical (There are exceptions but that is not my point)
I think that future events really need to get themselves sorted out and use a 2 person casting duo that balances well. One of each type described in TB's original monologue.
I also think that what you like to watch depends on what you are looking for. I am a Master Terran and I love people getting really in depth so that I can learn new things. I do however have friends who are bronze and just wanna see stuff get nuked while someone shouts about it!
Maybe Idra and TB should team up! And cast something together, I would pay to watch it!
Nice. Making blanket statements about the skill levels of who prefers what. This doesn't come off as completely snobbish at all. Plenty of high skilled people like the hyped commentary or even do that style of commentary.
On May 13 2011 16:36 Thoramas wrote: People in this thread seriously need to take a chill pill and re-read the context.
TB is not saying A>B or B>A.
He's saying A is different from B and A+B (read: 2 people working together) = profit.
Maybe I'm misreading him, but I got the complete opposite impression... while TB points out the merits (and flaws) of both casting styles, his main complaint seems to be the lack of synergy between the two.
A: Player one has suffered heavy losses! Now he needs to reinforce fast to brace himself for the inevitable attack against his expo! Can he make it? Will he be able to get enough troops in time? Right here, he is putting up defensive structures, but will they finish before the attack of player two gets rolling? B: No... player one is pretty much done unless player two goes afk now. Though player one will be able to hold back the attack wave that's coming, in order to do so, he'll have to delay his tech so much that player two will steamroll him five minutes later. A: Erm... spoilers, man?
TB's entire point seems to be that it is impossible for him to get the crowd excited if Idra's analysis is too good.
He wasn't addressing synergy concerns. He was responding to an article, that said casters should be more like Idra, by saying that instead of mixing both traits in one guy, two guys should work together with synergy to maximize the level of commentary. He then goes on to say why it is good to have both a color commentator and a play-by-play caster by addressing points mentioned in the article with respect the crowd that the play-by-play caster caters to.
Anyway, in your example, instead of "Erm... spoilers, man?", 'A' can always hype up a possibility that player one pulls off a miracle comeback(which happened a lot in recent GSL games).
I kind of agree with the article and Totalbiscuit to be honest. I think IdrA has been doing great at casting lately. His analysis is spot on and his style brings a new level of thought and intensity when watching the games, but I wouldn't want to hear him alone. I also don't like listening to Totalbiscuit by himself.
One of my favorite pairs was djWheat and IdrA in the EG Master's cup. djWheat connected/filled in the gap between IdrA's analysis quite nicely. He knew all the right times to ask IdrA for insight when there wasn't much going on, and then would pile on the excitement when an engagement occurred or something. It was really fun to hear, and I learned something. These are the two roles that Totalbiscuit was talking about, and I don't necessarily think that his response disagrees with the article. The article wasn't really talking about his ability to cast alone, but rather what he adds to the cast.
A lot of sports are also broadcasted by radio stations. Anybody wonder what an audio-only sc2 cast would be like? that would takes some gosu casters, haha
On May 13 2011 18:04 HwangjaeTerran wrote: Good read by TotalBiscuit. The main problem I see within e-sports commentating, especially starcraft II commentating is that there is a wide variety of people watching the matches. I'd say the % of hc-gamers to casual gamers is a lot higher than in other sports. The more common and "professional" approach might be better for the casuals but can also be a huge turn off to the hc-people. Well I guess time will show.
So perhaps the happy middleway is a good PbP caster and a good colour commentator by his side?
Perhaps this is a problem that have been worked with since the beginning of sport casting? Fanatic know it alls watching a european football match is not in a low %.
TB's post makes sense, regardless of the fact that he wrote it come on.
Is it or it is not a fact that IdrA is much more of a experienced player than a commentator? Yes, without a shadow of a doubt.
Then it's OK for him to lack in SOME departments of the commentating job, and crush faces in others, it's 101 common sense guys, I don't even realize why are we even discussing this.
TB is not trashtalking IdrA or anything, he's just stating the OBVIOUS. And I am not a fan of either (idra or tb).
I also agree with TB. Most of the time I watch a tournament I try to get friends to watch with me. Most of them dont know anything about SC2 but still enjoy it, cause its quite an accessable game (a lil more than BW). So a commentator who creats tension and is excited about the games is awesome. If a commentator is able to analyse a game without taking away any of the excitement (like day9 does), its perfect.
On May 13 2011 17:17 C.W. wrote: So let me get this straight. Some e-sports-scene caster with a great voice, who is a newbie in starcraft2 gives advice in casting to a guy who is playing this game(s) essentially since the beginning and on a professional level; who was invited to guest-cast/moderate high level starcraft games because said invitee was not... euphoric enough for the casters taste?
Since I did look Totalbiscuit up on youtube (totally didn't know who that guy was) I got the impression of a god-given moderation voice, but it also appeared to me that he got some personal issues after I saw him cast this very post that OP quoted. (That cast by the way was technically horrific and I felt a bit embarassed for totalbiscuit).
On a productive note I want to add that Idra is full time pro. No one can expect some veteran casting from him since he has no experience whatsoever doing it. Idra however has great game insight and knows his strategies which is why I thought NASL invited him for.
Also I do not regard Totalbiscuits post as "bashing" or "smacking" or whatsoever - I regard his tips to be pure waste (Idra does not need improving his casting since he is not a caster) and guess that this was just some deed to get some more attention.
It was a response to a journal article in which IdrA was praised for his casting, when in fact he's not a caster. Please read the OP before hating.
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
"IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion. "
Thats being an ass. Publicly just pointing out peoples shortcomings is being an ass. And what is the point of all of this? To make him look bad? To make TB look better?
"TotalBiscuit is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too ignorant, he is frequently oblivious to game situations, he talks about irrelavant parts of the game in his speech, he doesnt know when to quit talking, and he lacks the ability to convince the audience that he has any more clue whats going on in the game than they do"
see? thats being an ass.
TB is pointing out, well, facts. IdrA does not have training to be a caster, he does not have practice, he does not have experience. This is all accurate. His voice is very monotone, devoid of emotion, and has poor flow. These are all objective things that can be analyzed in a caster, because they are mechanical aspects.
IdrA does really well at what he does have experience at, however, which is knowing what's going on. As TB said, this makes him strong in the role that he fits - the color commentator.
Personally I find him dull to listen to, since I'm not really looking for a flat narration of the strategies involved so much as entertainment along with key points to consider in the match. That's my preference.. If he had more practice/training and fixed some of the aspects TB brought up, he'd be immensely stronger overall though - compare Artosis interacting with Tasteless (in the analytical role) compared to IdrA in EGMC/NASL.
I think IPL would do well to have teams casting. I absolutely loved TBs casting, the hype was unbelievable (Ladies and gentlemen, prepare for violence and bloodshed! etc). BUT... the obs control from him (and Wheat...and Cats Pajamas) was definitely lacking. There is almost nothing more frustrating then seeing the battle commencing or a drop touching down on the minimap while the caster is talking about upgrades and looking at a main...
Ideally, the play-by-play guys could be paired with a colour commentary guy who could run the obs. If that can't/won't happen, I like TB enough to forgive the bits of action that he misses.
Few days ago Naniwa was casting with vampire lady dailymotion cup i believe and i as a true Nani fanboi was super excited. I thought that he was the best caster ever and every time he said anything i got nerd chills just like those from Tastetosis, for me he was the best caster ever ! On the other hand from a professional point of view he was probably horrible because he lacked certain casting skills but i didnt care because i was his fanboi and was super excited and will be again if he casts more. I think thats the point of this thread, TB is pointing out that professional point of view whats wrong with Idras casting and we all know what kind of fans Idra has, so ofc they will only flame TB for it. U people need to come down, TB isnt trolling or bming Idra, hes just pointing out what he lacks to become a professional caster, if ur a true fan u will accept that, or not care because u love Idra anyway exactly how he is. If ur a troll zerg fanboi that watches Destinys stream for 10h a day u will probably flame TB.
On May 13 2011 17:43 Wolf wrote: Wow, TB makes some great points. He's not even bashing. The comments in this thread make my head hurt.
Same for me.
TB basically says: "IdrA is not an experienced caster but he has excellent game knowledge, so he should be paired with an experienced play-by-play caster so the casts provide insight _and_ excitement and is entertaining for everyone".
I don't see how anyone except could disagree with that. I guess there are really some hardcore-purists that are unable to relax and enjoy something just for the sake of entertainment. Makes me sad
EDIT:
On May 13 2011 18:14 aidnai wrote: Nice read from TB.
I think IPL would do well to have teams casting. I absolutely loved TBs casting, the hype was unbelievable (Ladies and gentlemen, prepare for violence and bloodshed! etc). BUT... the obs control from him (and Wheat...and Cats Pajamas) was definitely lacking. There is almost nothing more frustrating then seeing the battle commencing or a drop touching down on the minimap while the caster is talking about upgrades and looking at a main...
Ideally, the play-by-play guys could be paired with a colour commentary guy who could run the obs. If that can't/won't happen, I like TB enough to forgive the bits of action that he misses.
IIRC IPL planned to have casting duos in the next season, season 1 was just to get everything set up and try things out, which is why there was only one caster.
Totalbiscuit's entire argument is flawed because it presumes that the skills which make someone a good sports commentator are also the skills which make someone a good SC2 commentator.
There is a reason why people who actually understand the game like Artosis, Tasteless, and Day9 are the commentators most beloved by the community. Once you dedicate even just a small mote of time to trying to understand SC2, play by play commentary suddenly becomes both stagnant and dull.
Thing is, if you watch a replay commented by Day9, it is certainly not to relax and enjoy a Starcraft 2-related distraction. Listening to Day9 is training. Listening to Totalbiscuit is having fun.
I'm high diamond and I have a corresponding understanding of the game. TB is the only caster I follow on a regular basis, because I watch replays to be entertained. If you consider casting as a way to improve your play, you will follow Day9 and a couple of others. But if you watch replays to have a good time, what TB says is not only true, it's a no-brainer. If you want to keep people entertained, don't tell them the game is already over. Maybe you want to learn something when you watch replay, in that case go Day9, Artosis, or whoever you like. Just don't assume that everyone does - as TB says, many of the people who follow him don't even have the game.
I don't know why this was written but he can really stand behind it means it must be valuable in ways. And it was. If you take away IdrA and just focus on the analysis of casting it was incredibly insightful and accurate. Accurate up to the extent that one can only speak in general terms, different people like different things.
What I would want to repeat from the article is the role prediction plays. When MLG comes around watch for it, Day9 is one of the only casters who is actively manipulating this information. Even when he knows it is likely to go a certain way he will keep just enough information behind not to make this clear and allow the situation to unfold in an exciting manner. I feel this is one of the main points that was getting put across. One that is enlightning to accept and look out for in future casts.
But my first reaction to this article is: are you KIDDING me?!?! So when a game is obviously over, TB is stating (undeniably), that the commentator should act like its not. As a viewer, I would get SO pissed if I knew that this "expert", this person who is supposed to know something about the game and therefore is commentating on this, is bullshitting me and telling me LIES. TB literally states that its the commentator's job to make the 'gg' the climax, and therefore should keep excitement up until that point... by acting like the game is still competitive.
TB makes an argument here that relies on pretty rhetoric without base and arguments without substance. He makes a pretty argument that different viewers watch the games for different reasons, and lists a few. Yet at the same exact time, he assumes that he knows WHAT everyone wants. And not only do I think he is wrong in assuming that, I disagree with WHAT he assumes.
Firstly, let's use an analogy. Imagine a basketball, football, whatever sport game; let's pick football for the sake of it. The score is 42-3 and there are 2 minutes left on the clock. Do you REALLY want some commentator to be saying "the other team has a chance..."... No. Personally, that's just ridiculous, and I think a lot of people would agree here.
My personal opinion is this. Commentators are not simply people who "hype" up the audience and make it exciting until the final moments of the game. Those people are commonly called "cheerleaders". Commentators have a much, much larger role, and a very symbolic one at that. They are, to the audience, the figureheads, the link between the audience and the sport. In a bad analogy, they would be the bridge that separates the professional world, and our computer screens and TV sets. I don't want this bridge to be a rickety, untrustworthy bridge through which I get all my information. I want this bridge to be solid, truthful, honest, straight, and trustworthy, so that I KNOW I'm getting the truth, and so that I hope I can learn a bit about the game, even if I don't play it. That's another place I disagree with TB. Everyone who watches the game, regardless of whether they own the game or know how to play it or not... they want to know how its played. Do you watch football to say "oh yay a flying ball! cool!"? Even new people watch football and try and learn how the rules are played, and maybe try to learn the complex strategies behind the sport. Why do you think all these parents and kids sit at home and yell at their TV's, "they should have done this move! or that move!" when they clearly know very little about what's actually going on? It's human nature. We want to know what's going on. That's one of the reasons we listen to these live casts instead of just watching the replay in silence.
Finally, I disagree about one last thing. TB said something along the lines that "diamond/master players will know when the game is over." This is true, yet it hardly helps TB's point in any way. There are often 20-40 minutes for a game, and TB is talking about the last few minutes. And I can promise you this: not even diamond players will always know what's going on. Do you know why? Because we don't care enough. We don't follow both bases and keep the unit compositions and build orders in our head, and keep track of production tabs. We don't follow all the upgrades and see when tech is rising or whatever. Etc. What I'm trying to say is, we don't watch everything as viewers. Some do, some don't. Even for lower-level gamers (gold/silver/bronze), though they might not be as good at the game, they still have a strong sense of the game and want the commentators, who have been following all the game's stats closely, to fill them in and keep them updated with truthful news.
So, TB, I respectfully state my view that some of your arguments are without merit here. And I'm sure you had some reason, but to me, your "IdrA is a bad caster" is clearly an attempt to draw attention and therefore is in really poor taste. As a commentator, you should be ashamed of yourself for speaking like that about a fellow commentator, even if the points you make are true, e.g. IdrA is not a very good/exciting speaker.
Totalbiscuit's entire argument is flawed because it presumes that the skills which make someone a good sports commentator are also the skills which make someone a good SC2 commentator.
There is a reason why people who actually understand the game like Artosis, Tasteless, and Day9 are the commentators most beloved by the community. Once you dedicate even just a small mote of time to trying to understand SC2, play by play commentary suddenly becomes both stagnant and dull.
Thing is, if you watch a replay commented by Day9, it is certainly not to relax and enjoy a Starcraft 2-related distraction. Listening to Day9 is training. Listening to Totalbiscuit is having fun.
If you consider casting as a way to improve your play, you will follow Day9 and a couple of others. But if you watch replays to have a good time, what TB says is not only true, it's a no-brainer. If you want to keep people entertained, don't tell them the game is already over. Maybe you want to learn something when you watch replay, in that case go Day9, Artosis, or whoever you like. Just don't assume that everyone does - as TB says, many of the people who follow him don't even have the game.
I don't think there is anything wrong with having casters that appeal to different kind of people. Although when watching a tournament like GSL I prefer having casters with more knowledge than TB but when it come to smaller tournaments or even larger with players I don't really care for I often prefer TB since he brings an element of entertainment to something that I wouldn't watch otherwise. It's sort of watching a funday monday, you don't do it for the quality of game play.
Of the listed commentators in the IPL, there was 1 colour commentator (Painuser) and 4 play-by-play commentators (HD, DJWheat, Catspyjamas and myself).
great read but i dont really know about know about this part... no offence the only commentator in sc2 who fits this description is jason lee and maybe some day totalbiscuit if jason took him under his wing peace
Play-by-play announcers are the primary speakers, valued for their articulateness and ability to describe the events of an often fast-moving contest.
His analytical abilites are so good he can be excused from putting in passion and emotion imo, TB has it right in most parts but i feel that most of it is excusable.
i love idra's casting but what TB says is true.. I mean idra will flat out say "ok, it's over this guy has no chance" and the game will go on for 10 minutes..
But on the other hand he sees 1 barrack, 1 refinery and 15 scvs and call out battlecruisers at 15 mark and it happens lolol
I think beside artosis no one is near idra in terms of calling out strats and reading the game, the only thing he lacks his when to give emotion to the casting. If he sees a game breaking move by someone he will say it but he will say it like he's going to the bathroom lolol
I don't think that NASL has the casual viewership he is referencing when he points out that many viewers of starcraft don't play and hence don't want to learn, they just want excitement. I would dispute that they don't want to learn though. As if there aren't millions of sports nerds totally incapable of playing the game, but ravenous for the most technical knowledge they can get so they can disect and understand the game at the highest level possible.
I think that viewership watches Husky/HD et al on youtube VODs. That's why they get many times more unique views than NASL has live watchers. They are less likely to be tuning in at primetime every day to the early rounds of a tournament. I don't think they are the 13k watching NASL at present, and certainly not the ones paying for it.
That could be a problem in itself, but I think for the demographic NASL attracts at present, Idra is a great choice.
But even sidestepping that, I see no problem in having an enthusiastic colour play by play guy to pair with Idra's analytical punditry, other than that NASL don't have that commentator. Idra does what he does very well, the problem is that his co casters can't fulfill an equally specialized complimentary role. Gretorp in particular isn't an effective analytical commentator, and he lacks the requisite charisma to perform in other roles. I hardly think Idra as a guest commentator is a chief problem.
On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote: He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
He's pointing out what he assumes are faults in regards to him casting games, which a lot of people don't agree with. I personally don't like the "hype man" style of casting and like the more analytical style of casting, and I'm not some diamond/masters player that TB would assume I am.
On May 13 2011 17:17 C.W. wrote: So let me get this straight. Some e-sports-scene caster with a great voice, who is a newbie in starcraft2 gives advice in casting to a guy who is playing this game(s) essentially since the beginning and on a professional level; who was invited to guest-cast/moderate high level starcraft games because said invitee was not... euphoric enough for the casters taste?
Since I did look Totalbiscuit up on youtube (totally didn't know who that guy was) I got the impression of a god-given moderation voice, but it also appeared to me that he got some personal issues after I saw him cast this very post that OP quoted. (That cast by the way was technically horrific and I felt a bit embarassed for totalbiscuit).
On a productive note I want to add that Idra is full time pro. No one can expect some veteran casting from him since he has no experience whatsoever doing it. Idra however has great game insight and knows his strategies which is why I thought NASL invited him for.
Also I do not regard Totalbiscuits post as "bashing" or "smacking" or whatsoever - I regard his tips to be pure waste (Idra does not need improving his casting since he is not a caster) and guess that this was just some deed to get some more attention.
It was a response to a journal article in which IdrA was praised for his casting, when in fact he's not a caster. Please read the OP before hating.
When I read the OP nothing said it was a response. I am very sorry that you read my post wrong.
Different strokes for different folks. I have enough knowledge as a player to know when a game is over(except on some very rare occasions like rain vs inca or nestea vs sc), and I like it when I'm told whats what. Don't sugar coat things, tell me when 1 player is playing horrible or when they have no chance to come back, because that's exactly what I'm thinking when I watch it anyway
As stated though I'm very likely to be in the minority, so pandering to the "casual" may be the way to go. TB may be biased on this viewpoint though, since the vast majority of his own listeners are casual, so he has to appeal to a different audience than others. Idra appeals to the more 'hard core' players.
On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote: He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
Idra is not doing anything wrong, I DON'T want him to be a play-by-play caster, we have enough of those. Idra is amazing as a caster (and by far my favorite) because he has such a great game knowledge that I can learn a lot just from watching the games he casts. The way he casts now is pretty much ideal for me atleast.
I play SC2 at a platinum level; however, I am not in the least bit interested in deep analysis when watching NASL, TSL, GSL or ISL. I want to be entertained. If I wanted to train I'd just go play some more.
Again: I want to be entertained.
Idra is, for casuals like me, a horrible caster: his voice is dull, he doesn't show any emotion at all and sometimes doesn't even care about a game when it's obvious it's over. However, he would be absolutely fantastic as someone who gives post-game analysis.
On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote: He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
"IdrA is not a good caster" How do you misinterpret that!?
Totalbiscuit isn't doing this to help IdrA, if he did he would tell IdrA in private, he is simply doing this to discredit IdrA because a significant amount of people (enough to warrant an article) prefer IdrA's casting style over that of his own.
Totalbiscuit isn't doing this to help IdrA, if he did he would tell IdrA in private, he is simply doing this to discredit IdrA because a significant amount of people (enough to warrant an article) prefer IdrA's casting style over that of his own.
Hello Anti Idra Conspiracy.
Firstly, let's use an analogy. Imagine a basketball, football, whatever sport game; let's pick football for the sake of it. The score is 42-3 and there are 2 minutes left on the clock. Do you REALLY want some commentator to be saying "the other team has a chance..."... No. Personally, that's just ridiculous, and I think a lot of people would agree here.
Yes, but that's not his point. What he said is to never, ever, say "whatever the losing does, the other team will win, so the match is as good as over." Which is be even more ridiculous that "maybe the loser has a chance". "XXX clearly has the upper hand" -> exciting. "gg, YYY won't be able to come back from this" -> then why should I watch?
But my first reaction to this article is: are you KIDDING me?!?! So when a game is obviously over, TB is stating (undeniably), that the commentator should act like its not. As a viewer, I would get SO pissed if I knew that this "expert", this person who is supposed to know something about the game and therefore is commentating on this, is bullshitting me and telling me LIES. TB literally states that its the commentator's job to make the 'gg' the climax, and therefore should keep excitement up until that point... by acting like the game is still competitive.
TB makes an argument here that relies on pretty rhetoric without base and arguments without substance. He makes a pretty argument that different viewers watch the games for different reasons, and lists a few. Yet at the same exact time, he assumes that he knows WHAT everyone wants. And not only do I think he is wrong in assuming that, I disagree with WHAT he assumes.
Firstly, let's use an analogy. Imagine a basketball, football, whatever sport game; let's pick football for the sake of it. The score is 42-3 and there are 2 minutes left on the clock. Do you REALLY want some commentator to be saying "the other team has a chance..."... No. Personally, that's just ridiculous, and I think a lot of people would agree here.
My personal opinion is this. Commentators are not simply people who "hype" up the audience and make it exciting until the final moments of the game. Those people are commonly called "cheerleaders". Commentators have a much, much larger role, and a very symbolic one at that. They are, to the audience, the figureheads, the link between the audience and the sport. In a bad analogy, they would be the bridge that separates the professional world, and our computer screens and TV sets. I don't want this bridge to be a rickety, untrustworthy bridge through which I get all my information. I want this bridge to be solid, truthful, honest, straight, and trustworthy, so that I KNOW I'm getting the truth, and so that I hope I can learn a bit about the game, even if I don't play it. That's another place I disagree with TB. Everyone who watches the game, regardless of whether they own the game or know how to play it or not... they want to know how its played. Do you watch football to say "oh yay a flying ball! cool!"? Even new people watch football and try and learn how the rules are played, and maybe try to learn the complex strategies behind the sport. Why do you think all these parents and kids sit at home and yell at their TV's, "they should have done this move! or that move!" when they clearly know very little about what's actually going on? It's human nature. We want to know what's going on.
So, TB, I respectfully state my view that some of your arguments are without merit here. And I'm sure you had some reason, but to me, your "IdrA is a bad caster" is clearly an attempt to draw attention and therefore is in really poor taste. As a commentator, you should be ashamed of yourself for speaking like that about a fellow commentator, even if the points you make are true, e.g. IdrA is not a very good/exciting speaker.
TB never said "IdrA is a bad caster", he said quite the opposite. He _did_ mention that IdrA lacks experience as caster, which noone can deny, but he also said that IdrA can give very good insight into the game.
About not calling gg prematurely... it's mostly about how the casters say it: "Game is over, Player 1 won" - bad "There is no way Player 2 can win this" - bad "Player 2 is in a dire situation, he has to do a miracle to get back into the game" - good "Player 2 is far behind, i can only wonder what he has planned to get back" - good "Player 2 barely holds on, falling behind every second, i don't know how he can survive the next attack" - ok
Saying gg before a player left is also insulting to the players. If the game would be unwinnable, they would leave, if they don't leave, they at least have a plan that gives them even a tiny chance to get back.
Oh boy! Lots and lots of people even didn't read TB's full comment and are talking so much crap! Read the comment before posting it's easy if you try.
On topic: I think TB is right. IdrA has everythingt he needs to be an excepcional commentator but because the lack of experience he is still missing some key points. Yesterday afternoon (EU) I tuned in NASL Sheth vs Kiwikaki and watching it was really boring (due to monotone tone of voices mainly) that I started to do something else (browsing TL ^^) with the stream in the background. At some point I hear the casters calling GG. And they called again. I check the stream the game is still going so I head back to TL. GG is called again and again!
I remember of think to myself "Damn thats alot of GG's for a single game that even didn't finished."
To sum it up: the casting wasn't bad by any chance but there is some points that need some work or else the games will become dull and the viewers will shift to other streams and VODs because nowadays there is plenty of good alternatives.
On May 13 2011 18:24 evsky wrote: His analytical abilites are so good he can be excused from putting in passion and emotion imo, TB has it right in most parts but i feel that most of it is excusable.
No, having casters/commentators that completely lack in an area is not a good thing, because as a caster you are meant to direct the audience. Listening to a monotone during a game limits the excitement buildup - compare to Tastosis, korean commentators, etc.
Hiding behind terminology to give criticism. The problem is that once somebody writes something that has more than 2000 words and without mistakes. Suddenly it becomes a good write-up with truth in it.
Idra is "luring" 20.000 to his stream when he commentates. He is a good caster. Probably better than the casters that would fit all the terminology TB provided.
While TB does have valid points, I dont think he does take into account how much analytical casters, especially people like IdrA who are pros themselves are valued.
Many people do not watch SC2 for pure entertainment, many watch to also see what they can improve in their own game. Extensive play by play commentary distracts from this by making needless noise for these people.
For example, I do not mind TBs casting at all, and actually almost prefer it when I'm watching games for the sake of watching games, but when I am watching games with the hope of picking something up from them, even with IdrAs faults I will still prefer him over TB, as TBs style in that case is flat out distracting and worthless.
I think part of what makes Artosis and Tasteless so good is that they know when to talk about analysis and when to entertain the audience, they are both very capable analytical casters, and give a lot of insight into the game, at the same time they know when to immediately shut their mouth with the analysis and transition into entertaining/play by play. They analyze unit compositions/economies/potential battle positions before the battle happens, and as soon as the battle actually starts happening they immediately switch into the play by play. Day9 also shares this quality in his casting style.
They also know how to properly commentate a game that is over and pending a gg from a player. Instead of just saying "yeah this is over" over and over and not adding much ala Gretorp/Incontrol style, they analyze and talk about what each player could of potentially done different, and what choices made in the game led to the outcome.
Listening to Artosis/Tasteless cast at times feels like more listening to 2 people watch and discuss the game objectively, trying to think about the game from the perspective of the players themselves. I feel that this is something many caster duos can benefit from.
I think TB could have worded some parts of that a bit better, cause there are portions of rather sentences of it that can be considered slamming in my opinion and rather unnecessary to mention. Though I don't believe that is what he intended to do in the first place - or at least I hope he didn't intend on doing that.
I enjoy both commentators for different reasons. If I'm tired and just want some entertainment I'd prefer to listen to TB, but if I actually want to learn something from someone better than myself I'd definitely choose Idra over TB. Not that TB would be my first choice when it comes to PbP anyway.
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I agee, people here don't seem to realise or care what TB's message actually is.
I think TB has a point. Taking into account the "non playing" part of the viewer is something SOOOO many people in this community forget when they want to make e-sport happen. Having a quiete nerd as a caster won't help casual / non-players to join the community and make e-sport bigger.
Idra was a 100 times better caster than totalbiscuit is and it was his first time casting with no training.... he should not teach anything to idra, just lol
On May 13 2011 18:30 Koshi wrote: Hiding behind terminology to give criticism. The problem is that once somebody writes something that has more than 2000 words and without mistakes. Suddenly it becomes a good write-up with truth in it.
Idra is "luring" 20.000 to his stream when he commentates. He is a good caster. Probably better than the casters that would fit all the terminology TB provided.
Do you ask me why Idra is a good caster?
Ask his 20.000 viewers.
And you assume all 20,000 of them are there to watch him cast?
On May 13 2011 18:30 Koshi wrote: Hiding behind terminology to give criticism. The problem is that once somebody writes something that has more than 2000 words and without mistakes. Suddenly it becomes a good write-up with truth in it.
Idra is "luring" 20.000 to his stream when he commentates. He is a good caster. Probably better than the casters that would fit all the terminology TB provided.
Do you ask me why Idra is a good caster?
Ask his 20.000 viewers.
Most of the 20,000 viewers tune in because they want to see/hear him being BM and telling how bad everyone else is. The rest, like me tune in because there is a good chance to learn something from his play.
Also, if everyone would take time and actually read what TB wrote, you'd realise that it actually all make sense and he raises very valid points in his post.
Maybe for the average 12 year old WoW player this is true (me 6 years ago) but when you get older and actually UNDERSTAND the game you want someone analytical to explain in depth the small pieces that puts the puzzle together, someone like IdrA
Idra has WAY too many hardcore fans for this thread to get 18 pages of useless argument -_- TB was nitpicking an article concerning Idra casting, and this thread is nitpicking TB's nitpicking.
I don't fully agree with this. I consider my self very casual, I watch more games than I play atm. Yet I actually really hate it when a caster is trying to over hype a battle with a 60 supply differential or screams with all of their might GG at the end when it was impending for 10 minutes. If it's a final or something big, yes I understand. I want to always see it how it is, and knowing that critical mistake that lost someone the game is also part of it. Also, totalbiscuit seems to take IdrA quite literally when he says i"ts pretty much gg", he obviously means it would take a lot for the player losing to make come back, which is basically the same thing he said it's ok for casters to convey, in fact when there is a come back its way more exciting to know that the guy was practically doomed a few minutes ago. However, I agree about the fact that IdrA monotonous, and seems like he's analyzing an old reply that he knows the result of rather than reacting to a live match. He definitely could be more enthusiastic.
On May 13 2011 17:15 gregnog wrote: I made a post on that reddit as well...
I cant listen to TB's cookie cutter casting either.
Getty worded it perfectly... basically after you get past silver that simple style of entertainment casting becomes torture to your ears. I can kind of understand where people like TB are coming from when thinking of the super casual and new fans, I guess that is all good. But then criticizing Idra for casting how the majority of this community wants someone to cast is kind of funny. Especially considering how this community has shown you several times already how they feel about you TB.
If this community were the type to enjoy that simple kind of entertainment you put out, they wouldnt be playing Starcraft. At least that is how I see it. They would be playing LoL, WoW, or watching Pokemon or something.
This is not sportscenter.
Going to overlook you talking for the "community" or saying that only "super casual and new fans" enjoy watching and listening to games cast by TB.
Yeah Idra is great for some gamers who sit at their computer wanting to learn from every cast they watch:
But he wouldn't be suited to larger events where people go for entertainment. How many poeple at large events do you see with notepads, most of the them want to see the players they root for and to get excited whilst watching a game they love:
There is room for all different types of casters in SC2 and if people want SC2 to grow and attract as wide a variety of spectators as possible we should probably not be openly trying to shoot down or even overtly criticise those who do it. This goes for TB as well in a way, yeah he wants to express his opinion but is creating this kind of drama (even unintentionally) good or even useful? Maybe I missed IdrA asking for casting advice.
On May 13 2011 18:32 zeru wrote:] TB pointed out facts about idras casting. What facts that are bad can you point out about TB's casting that are bad, I'm sure he would listen to it.
I will not comment on TB's casting, but from the various threads I've seen with him posting in, he seems to not be very receptive to, even constructive, criticism.
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I agee, people here don't seem to realise or care what TB's message actually is.
In conjunction with someones comment on this saying "I totally read this with his shoutcasting voice in mind" ones i read the title of the thread here ... i instantly headed over http://gobarbra.com/hit/new-9633ecb001acbb92be24e3797b12af1c and read the first pages with that in a loop.
And oh boy was i rewarded. Now i'm in a good mood all day ^_^
I'm honestly shocked on how a totally valid opinion ( if you agree with it or not ) is just blindly flamed after reading nothing more than the authors name. I highly doubt that the majority has read his comment beyond the first two sentences.
If Day9 would have posted that comment we would have a 20 pages thread full of praise. Somebody should really make a study on that. Just posting a TB comment under Day9's name. Just for the sake of seeing how people react :D
EDIT
I will not comment on TB's casting, but from the various threads I've seen with him posting in, he seems to not be very receptive to, even constructive, criticism.
He started his "I suck at StarCraft2" streams / yt videos because the community stated his lack of ingame knowledge. Now he streams 2 hours of ladder practice every day .. and soly because the community constructively criticized on that. He agreed and is now working on changing that.
I have very little interest in this whole topic of Idra's casting, TB's reaction to it, possible (though false) flaming of, etc. Nazgul's right -- I feel some of this has become a good/bad semantics fight. "Idra's good b/c XYZ." "He's bad b/c ABC."
I read the TB counterpoint, and I first read Jeff's op-ed at gosu.com. The issue discussed is actually not Idra's casting. We're talking about casting and what Idra is bringing to the table, in Jeff's opinion: "blunt honesty." TB responds by giving perspective as an active known caster:
It is not the play-by-play casters job to tell you when a game is over, it is the play-by-play casters job to heighten tension, provoke emotion and increase the viewer’s excitement. You cannot do that by calling a game before it ends. The climax of a game should be the GG, regardless of whether or not it’s blatantly too late. You call a GG 10 minutes before it actually happens, even if it’s absolutely the right call, then you stop engaging a good portion of your viewers, specifically the majority of the viewerbase, the casuals who are there for entertainment. In-depth analysis in sports is generally done post-game, not mid-game. There is definitely space for analysis, plenty of it, but drowning a viewer in 10 mins of in-depth analysis of how Player A fucked up while the game is still going on in the background, will turn off the casual viewer.
This is valuable stuff here, the opinion of an active working pro(?) caster, and he's right -- you can't create an entertaining product of a game AND call GG too early. It's interesting to think about the viewership, too, but that's not what I want to home in on:
In-depth analysis in sports is generally done post-game, not mid-game.
What the hell are we doing working by sport's model? E-sports is ours, for fuck's sake. Am I missing something? Why isn't there more thought going into questioning the assumptions and lineage underpinning it.
In-depth analysis in sports is generally done post-game, not mid-game.
What the hell are we doing working by sport's model? E-sports is ours, for fuck's sake. Am I missing something? Why isn't there more thought going into questioning the assumptions and lineage underpinning it.
But there is a lack of post-game analysis. To think that you can cover all that midgame, while shit is flying and burning in 2-3 places at the same time, is just silly.
Some of the better casting moments have been when day9 have put on the replay after a match and discussed what we just saw. A great addition to todays casting.
SC2 casting should be more dynamic, now it's like nobody have the guts to do anything out of the ordinary.
this is exactly like artosis telling everyone who watches GSL that you should never have your entire army on one hotkey, and then doing it consistently on every game he has ever streamed
the intent is right (i guess) but its quite sad that they both feel like it is their responsibility to get on a platform and speak for everyone when they either are unable or unwilling to listen to their own advice
An interresting point I find in what TB expresses is the pre-emptive GG:ing that many casters do.
I'm very into ice hockey aswell, and if you compare how the casters handle a situation where a team is looking to be losing there: What they usually do is to say that much can happen in a short time, and they often back this up with examples from the past, where a team came back from a great deficit. This is good I think to keep the tension up to the last freaking second of the game.
On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote: He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
"IdrA is not a good caster" How do you misinterpret that!?
Totalbiscuit isn't doing this to help IdrA, if he did he would tell IdrA in private, he is simply doing this to discredit IdrA because a significant amount of people (enough to warrant an article) prefer IdrA's casting style over that of his own.
He explains the "not a good caster" in the following sentences and in the very same paragraph there is this sentence: "He is however, an analyst of exceptional skill and calibre, easily one of the best in the business." How do you get to the opinion that TB means to say that Idra is horrible to have as one of the commentators of a match?
I honestly am interpreting the article completely different and not negative at all.
I have to admit TB is right. Especially everything in the first paragraph cant be denied. I remember IdrA casting the GSL and i kinda liked it. Probably because he caught things most other casters dont, but right now in the NASL he sounds more and more like a typewriter. Imo it would suit him (IdrA) best to analyze the match right after it is played and leave the livecasting to a more emotional type of caster.
That way the viewers get the liveaction they want AND the deep insight (just inbetween games) - just the way the real Sports on TV is working.
On May 13 2011 18:36 thirnaz wrote: Maybe for the average 12 year old WoW player this is true (me 6 years ago) but when you get older and actually UNDERSTAND the game you want someone analytical to explain in depth the small pieces that puts the puzzle together, someone like IdrA
I'm 29, Diamond league (though quite inactive) and prefer TB over IdrAs casts any day because i want to be entertained when i watch SC, not educated - i can watch replays on my own.
Calling everyone who prefers play-by-play 12 year old wow players with no SC skill is quite... condescending, especially since you are just quite a youngster yourself.
There are people who watch for entertainment and people who watch for insight, having someone like IdrA paired with an entertaining caster provides the best of both worlds, so why not have that?
On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote: He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
"IdrA is not a good caster" How do you misinterpret that!?
Totalbiscuit isn't doing this to help IdrA, if he did he would tell IdrA in private, he is simply doing this to discredit IdrA because a significant amount of people (enough to warrant an article) prefer IdrA's casting style over that of his own.
So it that the same reason why Idra has bad-mouthed HD and Husky in the past?
On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote: TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting.
Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I agee, people here don't seem to realise or care what TB's message actually is.
In conjunction with someones comment on this saying "I totally read this with his shoutcasting voice in mind" ones i read the title of the thread here ... i instantly headed over http://gobarbra.com/hit/new-9633ecb001acbb92be24e3797b12af1c and read the first pages with that in a loop.
And oh boy was i rewarded. Now i'm in a good mood all day ^_^
I'm honestly shocked on how a totally valid opinion ( if you agree with it or not ) is just blindly flamed after reading nothing more than the authors name. I highly doubt that the majority has read his comment beyond the first two sentences.
If Day9 would have posted that comment we would have a 20 pages thread full of praise. Somebody should really make a study on that. Just posting a TB comment under Day9's name. Just for the sake of seeing how people react :D
Except most of us wouldn't think Day[9] would say things like "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
He would just give the criticism and move on, which would have more than likely gotten a much better response, which really isn't the point. I think the root of the argument is based on the styles of how games are cast, and which better fits SC2.
What the hell are we doing working by sport's model? E-sports is ours, for fuck's sake. Am I missing something? Why isn't there more thought going into questioning the assumptions and lineage underpinning it.
because the genres are remarkably similar and they have spent 40+ years and a ridiculous sum of money perfecting the art? lol...
I love TB's casting, I'm subbed to him just for that.
But I don't think he should have come out and said "Idra is not a good caster". I think he should have just went on with his whole page of talking about casting without saying anything about IdrA. It would have saved him a headache.
That said, I love IdrA's casting more than TBs. So meh.
Also, how come people are just calling people who disagree with TB an Idra Fanboy? =\ Argue the point, not who's side they are on.
You know, it's really hard for people to understand what he's saying without forgetting any preconceived notions of what they think "caster" and "commentator" mean, since TotalBiscuit happens to define the two in vastly different ways than many people seem to.
"He is not a good caster" "OMG WTF BASHING?!?!?!?!?!"
I agree with his point about calling the gg too early. It really does make things a lot less exciting. I mean sure, if it's blatantly over in one or two minutes, you can call it, but you really should try to avoid calling it as much as possible.
I do not see why TB made that post on Reddit. I have read all the pages so far and I think that even if TB had any valid arguments, they are void because there is no reason to post them publicly
TB is leaving me no choice but to assume he is looking for attention.
On May 13 2011 18:36 thirnaz wrote: Maybe for the average 12 year old WoW player this is true (me 6 years ago) but when you get older and actually UNDERSTAND the game you want someone analytical to explain in depth the small pieces that puts the puzzle together, someone like IdrA
I'm 29, Diamond league (though quite inactive) and prefer TB over IdrAs casts any day because i want to be entertained when i watch SC, not educated - i can watch replays on my own.
Calling everyone who prefers play-by-play 12 year old wow players with no SC skill is quite... condescending, especially since you are just quite a youngster yourself.
There are people who watch for entertainment and people who watch for insight, having someone like IdrA paired with an entertaining caster provides the best of both worlds, so why not have that?
So you prefer someone shitting all over your ears for X amount of minutes without you really knowing what is going on?
On May 13 2011 18:45 KristianJS wrote: I agree with his point about calling the gg too early. It really does make things a lot less exciting. I mean sure, if it's blatantly over in one or two minutes, you can call it, but you really should try to avoid calling it as much as possible.
Or you can call it and do what Artosis/Tasteless do: analyze the game, where exactly the turning point was for the losing player, and what the losing player could of done to potentially avoid the loss.
There will always be times when there will be games that the only reason they are not over is because the opponent hasn't gged yet. You just have to properly fill that airtime.
"IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
this is the first portion of what TB wrote and people are defending he is not bashing idra and saying hes a bad caster!?!??
smh
edit: " Idra is a bad caster. He has no training in casting so hes bad, cant hear him, sounds dull, stutters, no flow, cant express emotions and passion. "
basically what he is saying without sugar coating anything.
On May 13 2011 18:47 outerspace02 wrote: totalbiscuit = Craig Sager
And who is Craig?
On May 13 2011 18:48 Looky wrote: "IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
this is the first portion of what TB wrote and people are defending he is not bashing idra and saying hes a bad caster!?!??
On May 13 2011 18:48 Looky wrote: "IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
this is the first portion of what TB wrote and people are defending he is not bashing idra and saying hes a bad caster!?!??
smh
Except a lot of people don't think he's a bad caster and find those to be personal attacks.
Edit: I read this wrong, but my statement is still true.
On May 13 2011 18:41 CScythe wrote: Personally I'd be happy to never see Totalbiscuit cast another match. I'd prefer IdrA to cast over TB any day...
Thank you so much for this interesting contribution to the discussion.
In relation to the "IdrA is a bad caster" quote, I really wish people would quoting it out of context. Oh well. It's a shame this thread descended into "I don't like IdrA" or "I don't like TB", and that most people looked over the fact that TB's post was a response to a blog post about why IdrA is such a good caster and that everyone should take note. 80% of people seem to have missed that :-/
at first i actually liked TB:s casting, thought he was funny and all, but gradually (pretty fast tbh) it became just annoying, how one can be so blind for events happening on the game, and filling it with meaningless jibberish instead. idra >>>>>>>> TB any day of the week
Idra is a better caster than TotalBiscuit because he actually knows the first thing about the game. I'd much rather see Idra stutter a bit and provide some insight than see TotalBiscuit miss drops, constantly mis-state basic facts about tech trees and generally demonstrate no understand of the game on even a remedial level while speaking in an extremely annoying voice without stuttering.
There is a reason that football is commentated on by ex-footballers and not newsreaders.
On May 13 2011 18:41 cnas wrote: An interresting point I find in what TB expresses is the pre-emptive GG:ing that many casters do.
I'm very into ice hockey aswell, and if you compare how the casters handle a situation where a team is looking to be losing there: What they usually do is to say that much can happen in a short time, and they often back this up with examples from the past, where a team came back from a great deficit. This is good I think to keep the tension up to the last freaking second of the game.
I partly agree with this. If the score is 5-0 and it's 2 minutes left of a game no hockey commentator is going to hype it up and say that the losing team still has a shot at it. On numerous occasions have I heard hockey commentators say things like 'this is not good hockey being played' or something in similar fashion. If you continously hype bad games and bad decisions you have no credibility left for when actual good moves do happen. Casters should obviously try to create excitement but if the game is really bad I don't want to hear a fake 'AND HE TAKES THE GAME, BLABLA IS FORCED TO TAP OUT! WHAT A GREAT GAME!' It would be better if they joked around instead, creating entertainment. F.ex. I always found games with bitbybitprime hilarious since Artosis would come up with snide comments regarding how he would all-in and stuff like that. The games weren't good at all but the commentary made it entertaining.
regarding the premature GG point, other commentators in other sports call GG way before the game is actually over
Chick Hearn used to say "This game's in the refrigerator: the door is closed, the lights are out, the eggs are cooling, the butter's getting hard, and the Jell-O's jigglin'!" before the game was actually over.
also i'm seriously confused on what TB thinks a caster is. to me, a caster is interchangeable with commentator. Idra is the best color commentator in the business and a below average play-by-play commentator.
also, TB cherrypicked the original's main point. The original article said that idra's blunt honesty and critical sincerity is refreshing and needed. TB's rebuttal goes off on a tangent addressing in ways that being honest about a game being over is bad.
I HATE the know-little noisy commentators randomly yelling "AWESOME PLAY" "INCREDIBLE MICRO" when players are performing easy tasks. Tasteless is among the worst casters I know.
Idra has a great tactical understanding and that is the only thing I'm looking for in a caster. I can definitely see how that doesn't help interest new viewers.
I really got to dislike TB since he started bashing on DeMusliM at Dreamhack (I thought it was, he was casting with D'Apollo), whereas he isn't that great of a caster himself..
TB's post was civil and nowhere near "bashing" as the former thread title suggested. His stressing of the dichotomy of casting archetypes in traditional sports casting may have been educational to some but we must remember that cyber sports audiences aren't necessarily the same audiences whose needs created that dichotomy. We really need more data on audience preferences on casting in order to know whether the Color & PbP combo is viable for SC2, and such data isn't really best gathered on TL alone.
Personal thoughts: Commentator excitement can contribute to my excitement, but only if it's contrasted by low energy. Constant high energy commentary is tiresome and almost never aligns with how exciting the game would be to watch on its own.
I'd rather hear honest opinions on the game than disingenuous hyping of impossible situations (refusing to predict incoming demise for a player.) In fact prophecizing doom for a player is a perfect set-up for crazy excitement should the doomed player prevail. Detailing dire straits and then not telling us the ship will sink is too close to lying by omission.
On the topic of giving less interesting casts for less interesting games: painting a particular game less brilliantly than another also serves to contrast the two. I enjoyed hearing Tastosis be far more excited for Nestea's amazing win against sc on Crossfire than for most other games. I would've been disappointed otherwise.
I feel like commentators in SC2 are too hung-up on avoiding bad calls and self-corrections. OK, fine, I expect present events in the game to be noted accurately. I don't want to be told a player won't have X in time when he already has X. However, calls about the future have completely different expectations. All I expect is for the commentator to tell me why he thinks something will occur based on what he has seen. If he's wrong, fine, doesn't matter. Why did those events occur instead, and what events will they lead to?
Usage note: Cast, caster, casting, etc. do not have the definitions that we are using atm, so they're functioning mainly as truncations of broadcast and its variants (by this I mean dictionaries do not denote a cast as a broadcast and such, though we all understand that to be the case and use cast as so). In that capacity, casting does not indicate specifically PbP or color commentary. Even in the Wiki articles TB linked, color commentators are also considered sports broadcasters. It's a bit silly to be told IdrA is a poor caster but a strong color commentator.
In the end both PbP and color commentary add value to the broadcast. However due to the nature of the game a commentator must command ample game knowledge to provide either one, since the actions that qualify as plays are often more subtle than mere combat.
Why would any who isn't a dummy want to hear Starcraft for Dummies? I don't get it, it's like you want some dumbed down remedial content just to appease an imaginary layman who is a) not you and b) not nearly as impressed with people like TB as people think.
Yeah I don't know why he took the time to write this piece either. Seems like he has an agenda. Regardless, play by play casting just seems dumb to me. Here's my priority list:
Player drama/rivalries Player quotes leading until the game Strategical analysis Player background Joking around Lastly, play by play
Perhaps I don't enjoy play by play because nobody does it right. First, no caster has a true broadcaster's voice. Also some casters screw up with words and info/loops a bit too much. However this is alright because we have casters like tastosis, who most closely follow the above priority list.
Also note; backhanded compliment imo. Definitely has an agenda.
On May 13 2011 18:53 Alive!US wrote: Its funny that totalbiscuit is hating on idras casting....mostly because I think totalbiscuit is horrible and I really enjoy listening to idra.
So it's funny that a man has an opinion... Just like you do?
And nevermind the lack of reading to discover that TB is, in fact, not hating on Idra. The sheer amount of people in this thread failing to grasp this (even with Nazgul himself posting!) is somewhat disapointing =/
Watching the NASL I actually really liked Idra's commentary. Yes, he may be monotone and not bring excitement or emotion but the stuff he says is so thick and has so much substance to it. The fact that his commentary is so substantial grabs my attention much better than a random caster getting excited and jumping all over the place about insubstantial stuff.
On May 13 2011 18:36 thirnaz wrote: Maybe for the average 12 year old WoW player this is true (me 6 years ago) but when you get older and actually UNDERSTAND the game you want someone analytical to explain in depth the small pieces that puts the puzzle together, someone like IdrA
I'm 29, Diamond league (though quite inactive) and prefer TB over IdrAs casts any day because i want to be entertained when i watch SC, not educated - i can watch replays on my own.
Calling everyone who prefers play-by-play 12 year old wow players with no SC skill is quite... condescending, especially since you are just quite a youngster yourself.
There are people who watch for entertainment and people who watch for insight, having someone like IdrA paired with an entertaining caster provides the best of both worlds, so why not have that?
So you prefer someone shitting all over your ears for X amount of minutes without you really knowing what is going on?
How else do you not get distracted by all the shiny things on your desk?
understand that TB is not directly insulting Idra, I read the article and the post.
However I think his philosophy for casting is incorrect. Sports casting is different from SC2 casting because of the pace of the game, as well as the scope. Most sports have strategy but are not hinged so much on it like starcraft. Of course basketball, football, soccer, hockey, ect have strategy but not to the point where it needs to be constantly remarked upon, instead the prowess of the players teamwork and backstory, is commented on as well as some play by play.
The sport that is the closest in my opinion would be baseball. It's relatively slow paced unlike most sports similar to starcraft (not constant action). It''s also based almost entirely on a one on one atmosphere (pitcher vs batter) and the strategy of batter / pitcher is complex and most important to commentate on. Only baseball can one player single handedly win a game for his team (shutout + a homerun). The game is also incredibly cerebral, you don't need to be an incredible athlete to compete, intelligence and understanding of the game is just as important, unlike sports like football / basketball (for the most part).
Now I am a huge baseball fan, and I notice that baseball casters are quite different from others generally. Play by play exists but they don't flood the airwaves with it, they stay reserved and calm. Obviously if something important happens they aknowledge it but they don't do much hype, They don't need to, as long as people understand the situation, it's hyped. At the same time, they have a conversation about the game, the strategy, what the players should do, or are thinking / should be thinking. To do this you need two players with knowledge of the game for it to work. This seems to hold up with starcraft 2, hence the most popular casters are tasteless and artosis, who follow this model fairly closely. They do the minimal play by play, while commenting on strategy, as well as do backstory / give information (what they should do), as well as entertain.
The reason why the TB method in my opinion is very uninteresting is because he is unable to hold up a conversation with the other commentator about the game. Just commentating is not interesting. It shouldn't be pass it back and forth every 2 minutes or just one guy constantly yapping on what's happening and nothing else, it should be a dialogue about the game, with the important details done in play by play. The only way I could see TB being interesting would be a 3 caster model, with 2 other analytical casters to discuss the game while he does play by play. Even then though, he would have to talk considerably less, to allow a dialogue.
It reminds me of when I watch broodwar, I always see people comment how much they love the korean casters, eventhough they can't understand them, which I find puzzling. Commentators are there to help people understand, and give insight and entertain. This isn't radio, we don't need to hear everything that's happening, we're not morons. I respect what TB is trying to do but to be honest, you're doing it wrong. I think the evidence that backs me up is the knowledgable fans absolutely hate your style, which is never a good sign. Lastly, as a sports fanatic, I find it ironic that the guy who strives to be most like a sports caster, I find the most intolerable. Unless we count klazart as a caster of course.
P.S. Sorry im on a laptop hard to type, may be some mistakes. Also I admit I haven't listened to TB commentary in months, I mute his casts, I find them completely unwatchable. So he might have changed his style recently, my opinions are based on older casts, I assume however he has not changed. P.S.S American league is not real baseball.
There's a reason why people enjoy certain casting duos wheat day9 tasteless artosis
having a play-by-play and analytical duo naturally brings a dialogue to the game that you're watching that both follows and explains what is going on. it lets viewers in on an experience and have questions answered that they wouldn't ask.
a commentary is good when you can listen to it on its own and understand what's going on, like all the millions of people who follow games on the radio when theyre driving or without a tv. idra's on point with the game but i would have to be watching the stream
edit: also, I remember when I first got into broodwar during tsl2 and I was amazed at the stuff that artosis and day9 pointed out (build orders, gameplay) but chill gets the spotlight when nony demolishes the idra's entire army with a million storms. commentators should recognize when amazing things are done, both tiny and apocalyptically huge.
Well Idra is not a very good caster, but then again, it is not his job nor something he has spent any significant time on improving he only does it for fun and as a favor to his friend, iNcontrol.
It is like saying LeBron James is a terrible fucking golf player, i doubt LeBron would get too offended by that. (not that Idra is anywhere close to being LeBron but Idra is probably alot more polite in public than LeBrick )
I am not a Idra fan at all, hell i love watching the guy lose just as much as anyone, but him casting is just something he is doing for fun, its like saying Artosis is playing crap in NASL, he is a caster who does not have much time to play and he recently switched to Protoss, the fact that he is close to getting into GM in the Korea servers is a miracle on its own and shows his skill
TB`s arguments are valid. , But I hate play by play so I would just prefer having only "color analysis" as Wikipedia calls it. I prefer the ingame music and sounds to some guy telling me what I can see for myself. I`m not deaf. I want the commentators to commentate on metagame, strategy, and things that are actually amazing, not what someone who does not know jack thinks looks amazing.
I just think it's hilarious that all the in-depth analytical fanboys are too busy with their elitist snobbery to read even the first couple of paragraphs before rushing to Team Liquid to type out rage filled posts.
Really, after seeing the post that unequivocally called anyone preferring TB's play-by-play style to Idra's analysis a 12 year old WoW player, I feel compelled to point out that's exactly the kind of post you'd expect to see on the official Battle.net forums. This kind of reaction does no kindness to the reputation of Team Liquid and the Starcraft community at large.
New player: I dislike analytical commentators because I just want to be entertained and don't care about details. Experienced player: I dislike analytical commentators because I already understand the game.
In the end it comes down to personal preference on that note.
TB does bring up objective issues with IdrA's casting, but it depends on whether you as a viewer place those aspects highly or not. If you're more in it for the analysis, poor casting 'mechanics' won't bug you as much (and vice versa for someone watching TB).
IdrA > Totalbiscuit. I prefer and intelligent, in depth casting than an exciting, non educational one where the caster just screams what's happening. I want to know WHY it's happening, what it will mean later on, and why it will/won't work, and where the players will go from there. (not saying TB is bad, but I like IdrA more, and I'm not even a very large IdrA fan)
I think its kind of strange that TB is hatin' on Idra when they have clearly different styles and train of thoughts. From what Ive seen, TB's only trait is to hype uninportant stuff up and be all energetic about lackluster events.
And he is saying Idra is bad, cuz Idra doesnt do the same? When Idras trait is that DEEEEP artotis style casting where they both are 2-3 steps ahead of almost everything going on.
So with TB huge lack of knowledge of the game he is having an oppinion about what he thinks SC2 casting should be, when he dont know much about SC2 in general. Thats just not right.
Dunno, I suspect that there is a deeper issue lying around.
This thread shows that the level of comprehension on Team Liquid is incredibly low. Either that or nobody read the original post. Unbelievable some of the stuff people have written here.
On May 13 2011 18:53 Alive!US wrote: Its funny that totalbiscuit is hating on idras casting....mostly because I think totalbiscuit is horrible and I really enjoy listening to idra.
So it's funny that a man has an opinion... Just like you do?
And nevermind the lack of reading to discover that TB is, in fact, not hating on Idra. The sheer amount of people in this thread failing to grasp this (even with Nazgul himself posting!) is somewhat disapointing =/
I still stand by my point that "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion." is somewhat of a personal attack. Most of TB's post had nothing to do with what I quoted, it was with things that casters should/shouldn't say and how games should be cast. This was in a response to a gosu.com article stating that things that IdrA said (read:not how he said them) are actually good for casting.
So annoyed that people fail to see the point of the post. Someone wondered why TB posted this on screddit, and said snidely, that he must have done that only to get attention. Yes, that's the exact reason why anyone post something on the internet. But he did it to raise this concerns and start a discussion on Starcraft Casting. How this thread already derailed into a 20 page banter about who you like most out of TB and Idra is just silly.
What he says is that Idra is a bad caster, but has all the criteria to be amazing once he's tried casting a bit more and improves in those areas he mentioned. He acknowledges that Idra's gameplay knowledge and analysis is incredible. How can people actually manage to miss that?
What he really wants to is for other casters to understand what makes watching the game exciting, he wants everyone to improve. It's the same way how Day9 made everyone understand the principles of macro, of making drones, which most people seem to understand nowadays. He basically wants casters to up the game and make Starcraft even more awesome for everyone. Way to flame, fellas!
I recall IdrA casting some VODs all by himself a while ago while promoting some hardware from a sponsor brand and i have to say i enjoy his cast much more when hes co-casting with someone else.
On those particular casts he did solo, his voice was monotone, no excitement whatsoever and showed lack of emotion wich is one side to what casting should be and it was lacking on these particular examples. To me it felt basically like i was getting a horse tranquilizer shot and was getting completly numb by it. Even worse! he would pause the action in the middle of a match to "sell" some RAM thingys...not good for me.
Now, on the other hand i've enjoyed a lot more to see IdrA co-casting with DJWeath or Gretorp. IdrA makes the analytical part (to wich hes brilliant and has a deep insight into) and his co-caster brings some thrills to the table and a voice tone with enough decibels to be clearly heard and transmit emotion to all of us viewers.
So, bashing caster A, B or everyone of them because you like IdrA that much doesnt please me tbh.
Theres a lot of dedication and commitment behind casting and providing content to the community. For that only, you all should at least respect the work being done and skip on the trashtalking. There wouldnt be the ammounts of content currently available to watch if a lot of people didnt sat down and made hours of livestreaming / casting / editing / encoding / uploading.
For the ones who can only stand listening to 1 or 2 casters and bash all others, take 5 mins and go check how many VODs your favorite caster did the past 2 months and tell me how many games would you be watching daily if only them existed in this SC2 world.
Adressing the two specific casters on this thread:
@ IdrA, love your deep insight into the game and would be a pleasure to see you more often aslong as you get teamed up with another co-caster. @ TotalBiscuit thank you for all the content you provide to the community and hopefully you'll be around to keep rolling over the nay-sayers with your public thick skin, wich im sure you already grown quite a long time ago
To all other casters: keep doing what you love the most and if thats casting SC2 then so be it. There wouldnt be the ammount of Streams / VODs currently available without all of your effort, so thank you.
On May 13 2011 18:06 danson wrote: "TotalBiscuit is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too ignorant, he is frequently oblivious to game situations, he talks about irrelavant parts of the game in his speech, he doesnt know when to quit talking, and he lacks the ability to convince the audience that he has any more clue whats going on in the game than they do"
This was funny, i agree, that part was like totally useless. The other part of the article is ok. Its like the SC2 bashing in the elephant article. Just makes you look worse for no reason, when you have some good points - but its much harder to hear them now.
Also, the text reminded me of day9, almost all fits, only the last: he CAN convince big masses that he knows more.
I can honestly say that TotalBiscuit is my least favorite caster of all time. Not because of him critisizing Idra or anything like that but rather, he has absolutely zero knowledge about the game, NADA!. All TB does is confirm what is going on in the game, while being overly excited about everything, even the smallest things. WHOA and he places the GEYSER!!! HE DID IT!!!. to a point where it just becomes plain annoying, in fact after some time listening to him, it's hard to get excited by anything related to the game (Scarlett Johansson still works though).
As for Idra, I agree he doesn't show his excitement, he's much more suttle in his humour and passion, my god though does he have knowledge of the game, he is probably my second favorite caster. Favorite caster of all time - Artosis. The thing is, it's impossible to be a good caster without being very good at the game at the same time. Explains why Tastelesss and Day9 are also great casters.
On May 13 2011 18:53 Alive!US wrote: Its funny that totalbiscuit is hating on idras casting....mostly because I think totalbiscuit is horrible and I really enjoy listening to idra.
So it's funny that a man has an opinion... Just like you do?
And nevermind the lack of reading to discover that TB is, in fact, not hating on Idra. The sheer amount of people in this thread failing to grasp this (even with Nazgul himself posting!) is somewhat disapointing =/
I still stand by my point that "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion." is somewhat of a personal attack.
Disagree, purely because these are almost all things that can be looked at objectively. It's a comment on his casting, not his character. If IdrA was to turn around and say TB has terrible multitask in SC2, that too is a comment on a mechanical aspect that can be examined and not the person.
Remember that how people cast games and how people talk/act normally are usually not the same, and expressing emotion/speaking well publicly is often more difficult than talking naturally.
As Totalbuscuit said "IdrA is a bad caster and then listed of some issues that can be improved with practice". he is right IdrA is also a great analist. Idra just need to shirk off the "bad boy bm image most of the people seem to have about him", and talk abit more natural when on camera or on a mic. That comes with practice and a good co-caster to bounce comments and banter off e.g. Tasteless and Artosis. As some person said different strokes for different fokes, Thats true and to the people claiming TB is crap and bad. He has his flaws but the man can keep a flow of words with out mm or errs croping up, as with any broadcaster that is primarily about radio.
Tbs responce was to the orginal artical and can be seen as some contructive critism.
On May 13 2011 19:04 Boblion wrote: I feel it is sad that a mediocre caster with pretty poor knowledge and who fakes excitement is saying that Idra is a bad caster. He is my favourite.
Can you even make an attempt at reading only a couple sentences of what he wrote before you come and fuel the pointless drama? Why are people so damn lazy.
I read the whole post, i'm just sick of casters who have no insight whatsoever. I don't NEED casters like that. And nope the average Sc2 game doesn't make me excited so Idra commentary is pretty cool because he is GENUINE, if a player makes many mistakes he will say that he is playing bad and he will also be able to tell precisely the errors ( build order, army composition, timing, etc... ) Call him an analyst if you want, i don't really care.
As a caster IdrA was bad. But as an analyst he was doing a good job.
Knowledge about the game isn't even a big issue. Khaldor was pulling 6k+ viewers during assembly, pulling in non German speaking viewers, I was one of them, there is a lot more to good casting than just game knowledge.
For what NASL is, Idra was fine, at least IMO, but I wouldn't want him casting something big like a Dreamhack
Just from reading the head line i knew, that this would be a disgusting thread full of hatred. I should not even read such billshit, even though i mostly agree with what Total Biscuit says in a completely free of hatred kind of way.
On May 13 2011 18:36 thirnaz wrote: Maybe for the average 12 year old WoW player this is true (me 6 years ago) but when you get older and actually UNDERSTAND the game you want someone analytical to explain in depth the small pieces that puts the puzzle together, someone like IdrA
I'm 29, Diamond league (though quite inactive) and prefer TB over IdrAs casts any day because i want to be entertained when i watch SC, not educated - i can watch replays on my own.
Calling everyone who prefers play-by-play 12 year old wow players with no SC skill is quite... condescending, especially since you are just quite a youngster yourself.
There are people who watch for entertainment and people who watch for insight, having someone like IdrA paired with an entertaining caster provides the best of both worlds, so why not have that?
So you prefer someone shitting all over your ears for X amount of minutes without you really knowing what is going on?
Since you are watching the game, I assume that you can SEE what is going on. I don't need someone analyzing a situation I can analyze myself.
On May 13 2011 18:41 cnas wrote: An interresting point I find in what TB expresses is the pre-emptive GG:ing that many casters do.
I'm very into ice hockey aswell, and if you compare how the casters handle a situation where a team is looking to be losing there: What they usually do is to say that much can happen in a short time, and they often back this up with examples from the past, where a team came back from a great deficit. This is good I think to keep the tension up to the last freaking second of the game.
I partly agree with this. If the score is 5-0 and it's 2 minutes left of a game no hockey commentator is going to hype it up and say that the losing team still has a shot at it. On numerous occasions have I heard hockey commentators say things like 'this is not good hockey being played' or something in similar fashion. If you continously hype bad games and bad decisions you have no credibility left for when actual good moves do happen. Casters should obviously try to create excitement but if the game is really bad I don't want to hear a fake 'AND HE TAKES THE GAME, BLABLA IS FORCED TO TAP OUT! WHAT A GREAT GAME!' It would be better if they joked around instead, creating entertainment. F.ex. I always found games with bitbybitprime hilarious since Artosis would come up with snide comments regarding how he would all-in and stuff like that. The games weren't good at all but the commentary made it entertaining.
I absolutely agree, when the scores are very one-sided, say 5 to nothing, the casters shouldn't say that the other team has a chance still. What I find that the casters instead do in that case is to talk less about the score and more about the perfected play from the winning team or the collapse from the losing team or something like that, and never tries to speak about how the game is over (and thus not exciting anymore). Maybe they can get in some trivia from the past on how this losing player haven't been this outplayed since the wcg of something something..
But how much one-sided must a game be to get to that state? It's always something up for discussion.
On May 13 2011 18:53 Alive!US wrote: Its funny that totalbiscuit is hating on idras casting....mostly because I think totalbiscuit is horrible and I really enjoy listening to idra.
So it's funny that a man has an opinion... Just like you do?
And nevermind the lack of reading to discover that TB is, in fact, not hating on Idra. The sheer amount of people in this thread failing to grasp this (even with Nazgul himself posting!) is somewhat disapointing =/
I still stand by my point that "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion." is somewhat of a personal attack. Most of TB's post had nothing to do with what I quoted, it was with things that casters should/shouldn't say and how games should be cast. This was in a response to a gosu.com article stating that things that IdrA said (read:not how he said them) are actually good for casting.
Yet this thread is still filled with people making personal attacks on TB, claiming that his casting is terrible because they don't like it.
These, much like TB's comments, are opinions. The difference here, though, is that TB has professional expertise in this area. I think anyone who has had similar experience would understand that TB's frank comments are something you should accept and, indeed, welcome if you wish to pursue a career in broadcasting of any nature. Ironically, this frankness mirror's Idra's personal bluntness.
So no, I don't really think TB's comments should be considered 'personal attack's, and I believe that considering them so is undermining what TB was trying to convey in the first place. That's why I think your handling of this OP was somewhat lackluster. I did already know that thanks to the inital title though. No offense, but that's just how I see it.
As for whether TB's post had anything to do with what you quoted or not... I am somewhat confused, since you actually quoted TB's post in the OP. Just what did you mean by that?
I read the OP and then was interested into reading people's opinion on Play-by-PLay commentating. Instead i have to see that a bunch of people do not have the ability to read things completely
Especially for a let's call it uneducated crowd(people that have no idea how the game of starcraft functions) a Play-by-Play commentator might be the only way to get them to watch a game. If i had no idea about football and a commentator would just talk in a monotone voice of the tactical implications and give me no reason to be excited, i would not watch it. It is just not engaging for a layman. Play-by-Play with a bit of analysis is the best commentating, in my opinion.
The last thing i want to say is, please people on TL start to read the OP, thank you
On May 13 2011 18:53 Alive!US wrote: Its funny that totalbiscuit is hating on idras casting....mostly because I think totalbiscuit is horrible and I really enjoy listening to idra.
So it's funny that a man has an opinion... Just like you do?
And nevermind the lack of reading to discover that TB is, in fact, not hating on Idra. The sheer amount of people in this thread failing to grasp this (even with Nazgul himself posting!) is somewhat disapointing =/
I still stand by my point that "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion." is somewhat of a personal attack.
Disagree, purely because these are almost all things that can be looked at objectively. It's a comment on his casting, not his character. If IdrA was to turn around and say TB has terrible multitask in SC2, that too is a comment on a mechanical aspect that can be examined and not the person.
Remember that how people cast games and how people talk/act normally are usually not the same, and expressing emotion/speaking well publicly is often more difficult than talking naturally.
If you want to be objective, the article from gosu.com was based on things that casters should take away from IdrA, how to be blunt, call it like it is etc.. IdrA being bad at casting was something that TB threw in there himself. He could have refuted the original article with that whole paragraph removed.
I find this debate very interesting as it kind of might determine in which direction SC2 will go to in the future. I imagine a lot of bronze, silver and gold leaguers to follow the competitive scene without having an analytical or intellectual access to it. In other words: They just consume pro games like people who never really played soccer, but still watch the World Championship for entertainment's sake, do.
And then there is this 2 to 5% of master's league players where 50% of them believe that SC2 is too casual, too noob friendly and being dumbed down by Blizzard to please the masses. And I consider a lot of these people to favor Idra's commentating over a more emotional and enthusiastic way of casting. Anyhow, I kinda get the impression that these people forget why SC2 has become so professional in such a short time: It is because a lot of people care for this game and not only a small circle of BW-elitists.
If you want SC2 to become big so that players can actually make a decent living of it, if you want your big leagues and tournaments to stay as big and professional as they are, then accept that SC2 and all entertainment related to it has to appeal to a broad group of people - including those who don't care about analysis and just want to hear TB or Husky screaming into the mic.
Great post. Finally something worth to read in this post. Thanks.
TB had some good points, bue he must also remember that Starcraft 2 works in different ways then sorts do. In sports you cant really say its over until its a minimal amount of time left and one team is down by alot of points. In sc2 there is no time limit. It is all about killing the oponent, and thus seeing who is about to win one match becomes alot more obvious then when it comes to sports. They simply work in different ways.
I can understand that some poeple enjoy the more casual exciting viewer experience, but there are alot of people (myself included), who enjoys it alot more when atleast one caster tells it as it is, and doesnt sit there happy like a peacock about Player A demolishing Player B's army, while ignoring that B got 80 supply more then A, and a huge second army killing A's base...
On May 13 2011 19:10 Daewon wrote: I can honestly say that TotalBiscuit is my least favorite caster of all time. Not because of him critisizing Idra or anything like that but rather, he has absolutely zero knowledge about the game, NADA!. All TB does is confirm what is going on in the game, while being overly excited about everything, even the smallest things. WHOA and he places the GEYSER!!! HE DID IT!!!. to a point where it just becomes plain annoying, in fact after some time listening to him, it's hard to get excited by anything related to the game (Scarlett Johansson still works though).
As for Idra, I agree he doesn't show his excitement, he's much more suttle in his humour and passion, my god though does he have knowledge of the game, he is probably my second favorite caster. Favorite caster of all time - Artosis. The thing is, it's impossible to be a good caster without being very good at the game at the same time. Explains why Tastelesss and Day9 are also great casters.
I agree. I don't enjoy TB's casting at all. I think he might be somewhat enjoyable with a co-caster but alone he's pretty unbearable. Idra might also be dull alone, but it works well with a co-caster.
On May 13 2011 19:13 Dommk wrote: As a caster IdrA was bad. But as an analyst he was doing a good job.
Knowledge about the game isn't even a big issue. Khaldor was pulling 6k+ viewers during assembly, pulling in non German speaking viewers, I was one of them, there is a lot more to good casting than just game knowledge.
For what NASL is, Idra was fine, at least IMO, but I wouldn't want him casting something big like a Dreamhack
Idra is not bad as a caster. Many people like myself just want someone who is very knowledgeable to give analytic commentary in a calm, collected manner. That's exactly what he does. The whole thing about him needing voice lessens or whatever is a matter of subjective preference. TB seems to think that everyone should strive to sound like himself.
It is not the play-by-play casters job to tell you when a game is over, it is the play-by-play casters job to heighten tension, provoke emotion and increase the viewer's excitement. You cannot do that by calling a game before it ends. The climax of a game should be the GG, regardless of whether or not it's blatantly too late. You call a GG 10 minutes before it actually happens, even if it's absolutely the right call, then you stop engaging a good portion of your viewers, specifically the majority of the viewerbase, the casuals who are there for entertainment. In-depth analysis in sports is generally done post-game, not mid-game. There is definitely space for analysis, plenty of it, but drowning a viewer in 10 mins of in-depth analysis of how Player A fucked up while the game is still going on in the background, will turn off the casual viewer.
I hope tastosis are taking notes. I seriously love listening to their commentaries, but this is statement is SPOT ON.
I think tb knows more about casting/commentating on a "professional" level than any other caster. he wants sc2 games to be just like any other sports game, where you also have a play by play commentator and a color commentator. I think this "professional thinking" is a bit lacking in most casts at the moment (that doesnt mean they cant be fun anyway. again, I love listening to tastosis!)
On May 13 2011 19:04 Moskau wrote: understand that TB is not directly insulting Idra, I read the article and the post.
However I think his philosophy for casting is incorrect. Sports casting is different from SC2 casting because of the pace of the game, as well as the scope. Most sports have strategy but are not hinged so much on it like starcraft. Of course basketball, football, soccer, hockey, ect have strategy but not to the point where it needs to be constantly remarked upon, instead the prowess of the players teamwork and backstory, is commented on as well as some play by play.
The sport that is the closest in my opinion would be baseball. It's relatively slow paced unlike most sports similar to starcraft (not constant action). It''s also based almost entirely on a one on one atmosphere (pitcher vs batter) and the strategy of batter / pitcher is complex and most important to commentate on. Only baseball can one player single handedly win a game for his team (shutout + a homerun). The game is also incredibly cerebral, you don't need to be an incredible athlete to compete, intelligence and understanding of the game is just as important, unlike sports like football / basketball (for the most part).
Now I am a huge baseball fan, and I notice that baseball casters are quite different from others generally. Play by play exists but they don't flood the airwaves with it, they stay reserved and calm. Obviously if something important happens they aknowledge it but they don't do much hype, They don't need to, as long as people understand the situation, it's hyped. At the same time, they have a conversation about the game, the strategy, what the players should do, or are thinking / should be thinking. To do this you need two players with knowledge of the game for it to work. This seems to hold up with starcraft 2, hence the most popular casters are tasteless and artosis, who follow this model fairly closely. They do the minimal play by play, while commenting on strategy, as well as do backstory / give information (what they should do), as well as entertain.
The reason why the TB method in my opinion is very uninteresting is because he is unable to hold up a conversation with the other commentator about the game. Just commentating is not interesting. It shouldn't be pass it back and forth every 2 minutes or just one guy constantly yapping on what's happening and nothing else, it should be a dialogue about the game, with the important details done in play by play. The only way I could see TB being interesting would be a 3 caster model, with 2 other analytical casters to discuss the game while he does play by play. Even then though, he would have to talk considerably less, to allow a dialogue.
It reminds me of when I watch broodwar, I always see people comment how much they love the korean casters, eventhough they can't understand them, which I find puzzling. Commentators are there to help people understand, and give insight and entertain. This isn't radio, we don't need to hear everything that's happening, we're not morons. I respect what TB is trying to do but to be honest, you're doing it wrong. I think the evidence that backs me up is the knowledgable fans absolutely hate your style, which is never a good sign. Lastly, as a sports fanatic, I find it ironic that the guy who strives to be most like a sports caster, I find the most intolerable. Unless we count klazart as a caster of course.
P.S. Sorry im on a laptop hard to type, may be some mistakes. Also I admit I haven't listened to TB commentary in months, I mute his casts, I find them completely unwatchable. So he might have changed his style recently, my opinions are based on older casts, I assume however he has not changed. P.S.S American league is not real baseball.
I don't think that's what he mean when he talks about casting method. When there are more than 1 caster, it is obviously going to be more entertaining if casters engage in small talks about the game or the players. However, TB often casts himself so he must talk constantly about the events, otherwise there would be too many awkward pauses. If he were to cast in a multi person set up, of COURSE he has to talk less.
TB's main point is casters are there to keep up the tension. Commentators are there to give insights. It is not exactly one guy constantly yapping away while the other guy occasionally jumps in to make a comment; their jobs are much more broad when it comes to multiple people casting together, but TB simplified for the sake of argument.
You also say play by play means talking what's on the screen. This is NOT the case. Play by play caster is the one who constantly have to talk about something, whether it be about the player, the game itself, the weather or w/e in order to not have any awkward pauses.
Korean commentators are great because they fulfill both of these factors. (They are also professionally trained, of which foreigner scene lacks) It is unfortunate that 95% of TL's population do not understand them because Korean commentaries are much more entertaining, and for a good reason. Korean commentators reflect TB's points perfectly. They use the 3 caster set up. 1 Professional caster who is trained to speak and entertain the audience while having 2 commentators to give insights to what's happening.
Commentators are there to help people understand, and give insight and entertain. This isn't radio, we don't need to hear everything that's happening, we're not morons.
also, not everyone who watches starcraft plays starcraft. New viewers aren't going to necessarily have the basic understanding of the game to understand what 'commentators' like IdrA is saying.
It's pretty funny how Totalbiscuit clings to the professional sports model as justification. Professional sportscasters routinely offer some of the dumbest analysis imaginable and constantly spout catchphrases devoid of content and cliches. eSports doesn't have to blindly follow in this tradition; we should demand more, especially given that Starcraft is inherently a much more analytical, technical game than any traditional sport.
On May 13 2011 19:22 {ToT}ColmA wrote: if he wants to give idra good constructive critique, why make it public. this just seems like a poor attempt by someone to get some kind of attention.
this is just silly.
Because it's a response to another public post on IdrA's casting, thus providing an alternative viewpoint, as reading the OP would tell you.
On May 13 2011 19:13 Dommk wrote: As a caster IdrA was bad. But as an analyst he was doing a good job.
Knowledge about the game isn't even a big issue. Khaldor was pulling 6k+ viewers during assembly, pulling in non German speaking viewers, I was one of them, there is a lot more to good casting than just game knowledge.
For what NASL is, Idra was fine, at least IMO, but I wouldn't want him casting something big like a Dreamhack
Idra is not bad as a caster. Many people like myself just want someone who is very knowledgeable to give analytic commentary in a calm, collected manner. That's exactly what he does. The whole thing about him needing voice lessens or whatever is a matter of subjective preference. TB seems to think that everyone should strive to sound like himself.
Most people are not like you. The majority of people would rather hear excitement than their math lecturer (though I like my math lecturer). Preference in this thread is offtopic, but in any case, IdrA is indeed bad as a caster, he is good as an analyst, which is what TB said. It's just a shame that 80% of people are not reading the OP.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote: Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony.
Idiot.
On topic: if I didn't know who Idra was and the history behind him, I'd consider him a pretty bad caster after seeing him in the NASL. TB pinpointed his exact faults, and I didn't like how he was calling the games too early, even the times he was right.
However since I am a fan of Idra, it didn't bother me much. Idra is one of the few interesting personalities in the community, and this makes his casting very interesting as well as amusing in certain places (for example when Cruncher is involved).
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
It was a constructive material; also he wasn't bashing IdrA at all, he was just putting things in perspective. In what world where someone calls a guy "one of the best in business" and get called out for bashing him?
People like you just blindly hate TB that it doesn't matter what he does.
Alas, what you also don't realize is TB's target audience isn't you or much of TL's posters.
On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote: Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony.
Seriously? Wtf are you talking about? Maybe you should read his post first. Also what you think of TB is kind of off topic
Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.
TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.
Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.
But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA.
On May 13 2011 19:13 Dommk wrote: As a caster IdrA was bad. But as an analyst he was doing a good job.
Knowledge about the game isn't even a big issue. Khaldor was pulling 6k+ viewers during assembly, pulling in non German speaking viewers, I was one of them, there is a lot more to good casting than just game knowledge.
For what NASL is, Idra was fine, at least IMO, but I wouldn't want him casting something big like a Dreamhack
Idra is not bad as a caster. Many people like myself just want someone who is very knowledgeable to give analytic commentary in a calm, collected manner. That's exactly what he does. The whole thing about him needing voice lessens or whatever is a matter of subjective preference. TB seems to think that everyone should strive to sound like himself.
Most people are not like you. The majority of people would rather hear excitement than their math lecturer (though I like my math lecturer). Preference in this thread is offtopic, but in any case, IdrA is indeed bad as a caster, he is good as an analyst, which is what TB said. It's just a shame that 80% of people are not reading the OP.
See, here is the argument, a lot of people don't think IdrA is a bad caster and his style fits with the strategic theme of the game. I'm not going to be as presumptuous as to speak on behalf of "most people" the way you did, but I feel like there is a good number of people that enjoy that style of casting. Hence the disagreement.
Edit: To the poster above me, that is a nice way to explain how I feel. TB isn't an authority on casting, and he makes a lot of assumptions on behalf of esports, and to me citing a wiki based on live sports isn't a good basis for argument as esports isn't equal to football or soccer. I think of it more like intense chess.
On May 13 2011 19:22 {ToT}ColmA wrote: if he wants to give idra good constructive critique, why make it public. this just seems like a poor attempt by someone to get some kind of attention.
this is just silly.
This sprung to my mind as well. It really comes off as a stunt to conjure a rivalry out of nothing for the sake of publicity. He wouldn't be the first person to try to leech off IdrA's notoriety.
On May 13 2011 19:04 Moskau wrote: understand that TB is not directly insulting Idra, I read the article and the post.
However I think his philosophy for casting is incorrect. Sports casting is different from SC2 casting because of the pace of the game, as well as the scope. Most sports have strategy but are not hinged so much on it like starcraft. Of course basketball, football, soccer, hockey, ect have strategy but not to the point where it needs to be constantly remarked upon, instead the prowess of the players teamwork and backstory, is commented on as well as some play by play.
The sport that is the closest in my opinion would be baseball. It's relatively slow paced unlike most sports similar to starcraft (not constant action). It''s also based almost entirely on a one on one atmosphere (pitcher vs batter) and the strategy of batter / pitcher is complex and most important to commentate on. Only baseball can one player single handedly win a game for his team (shutout + a homerun). The game is also incredibly cerebral, you don't need to be an incredible athlete to compete, intelligence and understanding of the game is just as important, unlike sports like football / basketball (for the most part).
Now I am a huge baseball fan, and I notice that baseball casters are quite different from others generally. Play by play exists but they don't flood the airwaves with it, they stay reserved and calm. Obviously if something important happens they aknowledge it but they don't do much hype, They don't need to, as long as people understand the situation, it's hyped. At the same time, they have a conversation about the game, the strategy, what the players should do, or are thinking / should be thinking. To do this you need two players with knowledge of the game for it to work. This seems to hold up with starcraft 2, hence the most popular casters are tasteless and artosis, who follow this model fairly closely. They do the minimal play by play, while commenting on strategy, as well as do backstory / give information (what they should do), as well as entertain.
The reason why the TB method in my opinion is very uninteresting is because he is unable to hold up a conversation with the other commentator about the game. Just commentating is not interesting. It shouldn't be pass it back and forth every 2 minutes or just one guy constantly yapping on what's happening and nothing else, it should be a dialogue about the game, with the important details done in play by play. The only way I could see TB being interesting would be a 3 caster model, with 2 other analytical casters to discuss the game while he does play by play. Even then though, he would have to talk considerably less, to allow a dialogue.
It reminds me of when I watch broodwar, I always see people comment how much they love the korean casters, eventhough they can't understand them, which I find puzzling. Commentators are there to help people understand, and give insight and entertain. This isn't radio, we don't need to hear everything that's happening, we're not morons. I respect what TB is trying to do but to be honest, you're doing it wrong. I think the evidence that backs me up is the knowledgable fans absolutely hate your style, which is never a good sign. Lastly, as a sports fanatic, I find it ironic that the guy who strives to be most like a sports caster, I find the most intolerable. Unless we count klazart as a caster of course.
P.S. Sorry im on a laptop hard to type, may be some mistakes. Also I admit I haven't listened to TB commentary in months, I mute his casts, I find them completely unwatchable. So he might have changed his style recently, my opinions are based on older casts, I assume however he has not changed. P.S.S American league is not real baseball.
Couldn't agree more.
While the game is reasonably fastpaced, the game is essentially a game of strategy and mindgames that does not need action commentating. And while obviously people of all backgrounds should have a chance to enjoy commentating, I think it's safe to assume that if you have an interest in watching nasl, it's because you like strategy. If you wanted action, surely you would be watching casts of actiongames?
While play by play/color commentating is probably a reasonable principle to cast by, people still need a solid basic knowledge of the game, that TB doesn't posess. He has a point that there is quite a few colorcommentators, and alone pure analysis doesn't make for interesting casts but the opposite extreme is even less enjoyable.
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.
For some reason I had a moment in which I thought I was in utopia, in which this was actually the case, as opposed to reality in which idiots still responded and just didn't bother reading
You could make that argument about IdrA calling out Chill on his Twitter, as many people did, even though I disagree with it because I thought he was simply pissed, as we all get from time to time. I don't think anyone with half a brain would really think that TB did this for attention, he did this because he disagrees with an article, and posted his well articulated opinion. Is that not what discussion boards are for? :-/
TotalBiscuit is absolutely right in his criticism on the other article, as I read it, he is not criticizing Idra at all. Misleading title. TB is totally right that "calling it like it is" is not the end of the story, and in that sense he is defending inControl and Gretorp.
Color commentators come in different varieties, I really like the Idra way of doing color commentary. If you would get a transcript of the commentary, some of the things he says can go straight into strategy guides. But it probably is not "colorful" commentary.
However, given that anyway we can watch an amazing amount of matches, pick what you like. If you want to learn a lot, go to some of Idra's casts. If you don't, there's plenty of other stuff.
On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote: Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony.
Seriously? Wtf are you talking about? Maybe you should read his post first. Also what you think of TB is kind of off topic
Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.
TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.
Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.
But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA.
Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.
how can TB call someone else a bad caster? TB maybe makes a fun show for some people but it's really not something I personally would like to see.
@Idras casting: I disagree with Idras atitude very often, but I have to say: he IS a good caster. Of course he has something to improve, but his analysis in the NASL so far have been great
On May 13 2011 19:13 Dommk wrote: As a caster IdrA was bad. But as an analyst he was doing a good job.
Knowledge about the game isn't even a big issue. Khaldor was pulling 6k+ viewers during assembly, pulling in non German speaking viewers, I was one of them, there is a lot more to good casting than just game knowledge.
For what NASL is, Idra was fine, at least IMO, but I wouldn't want him casting something big like a Dreamhack
Idra is not bad as a caster. Many people like myself just want someone who is very knowledgeable to give analytic commentary in a calm, collected manner. That's exactly what he does. The whole thing about him needing voice lessens or whatever is a matter of subjective preference. TB seems to think that everyone should strive to sound like himself.
Most people are not like you. The majority of people would rather hear excitement than their math lecturer (though I like my math lecturer). Preference in this thread is offtopic, but in any case, IdrA is indeed bad as a caster, he is good as an analyst, which is what TB said. It's just a shame that 80% of people are not reading the OP.
See, here is the argument, a lot of people don't think IdrA is a bad caster and his style fits with the strategic theme of the game. I'm not going to be as presumptuous as to speak on behalf of "most people" the way you did, but I feel like there is a good number of people that enjoy that style of casting. Hence the disagreement.
Caster, not analyst. Would you really watch an IdrA solo cast (where was both) for fun and not for strategy? I wasn't being presumptuous, it's fact. TB references it himself on Reddit; Husky, HD and TB's casts pull more viewers than any of the tournaments. Hope that makes things clearer about what I was saying.
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.
You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.
You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
Yet another person who didn't read the two lines after that? I give up on this thread.
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.
You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
And what was so untrue about that statement?
Did you miss the line right after that said: "He is however, an analyst of exceptional skill and calibre, easily one of the best in the business."
Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.
TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.
But i reakon all this commotion derived out of his ego problem, if ^ is true.
imho the core of this discussion is that viewers of vastly differing skill level will not only prefer but almost require different types of casting. TB is a great caster for casuals, but he lacks the analytical depth of guys like day9 or idra.
actually this is, in my opinion, the true reason why tastosis is the best casting duo: they can give both casuals and very good players a good viewing experience without having to switch between analytical and casual "casting mode" too much.
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.
You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
Yet another person who didn't read the two lines after that? I give up on this thread.
I wrote the OP. My point is what I quoted was irrelevant to the original article and the response.
Oh and in regards to the compliment after about being the best analyst, it's a lot like starting a sentence with "no offense" and then saying something obviously offensive. IdrA's casting skills never even came up in the original gosu.com article, it was about how he approached casting. In TB's retort to that article, he starts off with saying how bad of a caster IdrA is and then goes on with his rebuttal.
If this was posted on battlenet or any other community of more casual SC2 plays I would agree with his criticism. Unfortunately (or fortunately?) TL isn't usually for the casual player and is looked at as elitist and whatnot because of this. IdrA's commentary is refreshing because he doesn't create unneeded excitement, he is just a raw analytical commentator who knows the insides and outs of the game and explains in depth why a certain action by a player was right or wrong. At the end of each match he reexamines the turning point in the early game that came to bite the player in the ass at the end.
Tasteless and Artosis also have a bad habit of calling a gg too early because they've played the game so long that they like a respectable gg instead of someone that is sooo far behind just staying in hoping the other player makes the biggest blunder in their life. The reason for Artosis and Tasteless success is the fact that they have chemistry together. I don't know how many times I've actually lold while watching the gsl. It is like watching two of your friends make fun of each other, being sarcastic and hyperbolic about anything on their mind. Not to mention, they know when to stop shootin the shit and commentate the game when it picks up and becomes interesting.
TB has a valid point if he is talking to the general casual population, but I think most people on TL would take IdrA's insight into decisions made in the game over HD or Husky try to make an obviously boring match exciting.
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.
You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
Yet another person who didn't read the two lines after that? I give up on this thread.
I wrote the OP. My point is what I quoted was irrelevant to the original article and the response.
You also titled your thread TB bashes IdrA's casting, when it CLEARLY was not bashing IdrA in any sort of way. Talk about stirring drama up.
totalbiscuit is a really fun and great caster. and well, he is both right and wrong.
it is true that idra is not a very good caster. and if left to casting ability alone, he would not be there, plain and simple.
on the flip side, he is the biggest foreigner celebrity we have. and as such, it makes what he says more entertaining, purely because he is the one saying it.
all in all i much prefer casts with no talk of anything strategic. do it after the game. focus on what is going on, what is exciting. build and create drama and tension. half the time whatever assumptions you make are going to be thrown out the window, anyway.
it is my biggest pet peeve with day9, who was a wonderful broodwar caster. his casting then was to just entertain. 99% of the people watching just wanted to learn more so they could enjoy watching the games more, because they would never have the skill to actually play broodwar at that level anyway. but the focus has shifted in sc2 from "lets just watch this and have fun and see how great these people can play and what cool shit they are gonna do" to "lets watch this and lets see if i can teach you something."
I think that game knowledge just makes the casters thoughts and commentating so much more appealing, beacuse of the fact that you KNOW that they know what they are talking about.
When a caster without much exeprience as far as playing the game goes, all the "play-by-play" and "hyping" they do during battles or drops etc, is pretty much worthless. You know that the commentator doesn`t know what the outcome will be or why this is happening or how big of an impact it is going to have. Time and time again, play-by-play casters calls the game over, or calls the outcome of a battle, pretty much wrong every single time.
It`s actually so annoying to listen to unexperienced casters, beacuse it doesn`t give you anything, anything. You know what is going to, you can look at your screen and tell what`s going on, and when they do open their mouth, it`s bullshit most of the time.
Infact, a casting-duo with two play-by-play casters,as TB mentioned, is pointless and utterly retarded. I would much rather prefer two "colour" commentator. Artosis and IdrA, would probably be too good for most people to grasp how good it is. Artosis, one of few, if not the only one that handles both aspect of casting, "colouring" and "play-by-play". Setling as one of the two, just doesn`t cut it for me. Well, everything I say might be wrong most of the time, and maybe i don`t know too much about the game, maybe I AM silver league material, maybe I don`t know anything about any of the players, maybe I don`t know much about the 2 other races apart from terran, maybe I suck at casting, but hell I hype the shit out of every single engagement.
In my opinion, when a duo is casting, the pro-gamer-caster should NEVER be doing the "AAAH" "SNEAKY SNEAKY" "ZOMFG ROFL" "OLOLOL DROP" part of the casting. What IdrA does is downright perfect. Cold and almost emotionless analysis of the game from the point of the gamers themselves, nothing fancy. that way the "professional" caster can do all their exciting shoutouts to pump up the adrenaline.
but its quite interesting, how tb has an opinion about this and seems forced to throw it out there -.-
On May 13 2011 19:28 Koshi wrote: Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.
TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.
Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.
But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA.
Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.
I am not saying that TB isn't legit. I putted it into "" because that is what TB tries to prove in his response. Best case scenario: TB is a nitpicker and can't handle that an article talks solely about a type of casting which didn't represented his own. Why? I don't know. I have assumptions though.
You also say play by play means talking what's on the screen. This is NOT the case. Play by play caster is the one who constantly have to talk about something, whether it be about the player, the game itself, the weather or w/e in order to not have any awkward pauses.
Not really, play by play means exactly what it says, taking about the plays that are taking place.
I don't think that's what he mean when he talks about casting method. When there are more than 1 caster, it is obviously going to be more entertaining if casters engage in small talks about the game or the players. However, TB often casts himself so he must talk constantly about the events, otherwise there would be too many awkward pauses. If he were to cast in a multi person set up, of COURSE he has to talk less.
Not really my point, my point is he does too much play by play and not enough analysis. Casting yourself doesn't really work well, kind of my point. Also baseball has pauses in the commentary, although brief, you don't need to just talk constantly if you're saying nothing of worth.
TB's main point is casters are there to keep up the tension. Commentators are there to give insights. It is not exactly one guy constantly yapping away while the other guy occasionally jumps in to make a comment; their jobs are much more broad when it comes to multiple people casting together, but TB simplified for the sake of argument.
That's pretty much what I said. However I don't think totalbiscut does a good job in that aspect, he does play by play almost exclusively.
also, not everyone who watches starcraft plays starcraft. New viewers aren't going to necessarily have the basic understanding of the game to understand what 'commentators' like IdrA is saying.
I wasn't honestly commenting on IdrA tbh. Also I mentioned that announcers / casters are there to explain the situation, to build hype / tension as well as help out the new listeners.
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.
You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
You seem to take this pretty personal. You posted your opinion some page ago and thats fine. Why dont you leave other people have their opinions? All your posts on the last 10 or so pages do nothing but question other people. dont do it! Let the readers decides what they think of every single post and don`t take yourself to serious. imagine everyone would start to post like you do right know. Even right know it is a pain to read through all the comments of people who clearly have not even read the OP, but when guys like you start quoting all kinds of other peoples posts, just because they dont agree with it, it gets out of line.
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.
You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
Yet another person who didn't read the two lines after that? I give up on this thread.
I wrote the OP. My point is what I quoted was irrelevant to the original article and the response.
You also titled your thread TB bashes IdrA's casting, when it CLEARLY was not bashing IdrA in any sort of way. Talk about stirring drama up.
Ok, keep ignoring the fact that I said the quote wasn't necessary or relevant to the topic being discussed.
It's like me saying, Nayl smells and can't ride a bike, but his points when posting are usually based on facts and well thought out. Do you see where the personal attacks are even though I complimented you?
to be honest id much prefer the analytical style of commentary than the 'fake excitement' many of the casters in the community are doing. im sure the casual gamer would be able to understand whats going on on the screen, which is what a lot of the non-analytical casters are talking about most of the time.
as for calling gg early, why not? its pretty evident that the person as lost, why over hype nothing?
On May 13 2011 19:13 Dommk wrote: As a caster IdrA was bad. But as an analyst he was doing a good job.
Knowledge about the game isn't even a big issue. Khaldor was pulling 6k+ viewers during assembly, pulling in non German speaking viewers, I was one of them, there is a lot more to good casting than just game knowledge.
For what NASL is, Idra was fine, at least IMO, but I wouldn't want him casting something big like a Dreamhack
Idra is not bad as a caster. Many people like myself just want someone who is very knowledgeable to give analytic commentary in a calm, collected manner. That's exactly what he does. The whole thing about him needing voice lessens or whatever is a matter of subjective preference. TB seems to think that everyone should strive to sound like himself.
Most people are not like you. The majority of people would rather hear excitement than their math lecturer (though I like my math lecturer). Preference in this thread is offtopic, but in any case, IdrA is indeed bad as a caster, he is good as an analyst, which is what TB said. It's just a shame that 80% of people are not reading the OP.
See, here is the argument, a lot of people don't think IdrA is a bad caster and his style fits with the strategic theme of the game. I'm not going to be as presumptuous as to speak on behalf of "most people" the way you did, but I feel like there is a good number of people that enjoy that style of casting. Hence the disagreement.
Caster, not analyst. Would you really watch an IdrA solo cast (where was both) for fun and not for strategy? I wasn't being presumptuous, it's fact. TB references it himself on Reddit; Husky, HD and TB's casts pull more viewers than any of the tournaments. Hope that makes things clearer about what I was saying.
Did I miss the memo when the community decided to refine the definition of 'caster'?. As of right now Idra is a caster for NASL. No amount of nitpicking niches will change it.
Also as a response to your question, yes I would watch Idra solo cast and have. I strongly suggest you watch his EG tip videos when he breaks down his own replays.
On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote: Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony.
Seriously? Wtf are you talking about? Maybe you should read his post first. Also what you think of TB is kind of off topic
Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.
TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.
Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.
But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA.
Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.
Large part of HD/Huskys success is that they were sort of first movers on the SC2 scene by casting in beta. If they had tried making an appearance now they would drown in the sea of just as mediocre and uninteresting casters showing up every day on youtube.
Why call idra "a bad caster" when he isn't a caster?!?!? He doesn't even want to be a caster or anything. He just did some commentating for fun and now suddenly he's a caster worthy to compare to other full time casters like TB himself. Sigh...
So yeah the comparison he makes makes no sense at all and he ultimately is trash talking idra. I like TB but I don't like how he's bashing people left and right and dismissing criticism of his own ACTUAL casting.
And just because people realize this doesn't make them "fanboys" or w/e shit people throws at anyone remotely suggesting anything that can be perceived as "defending" idra.
On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote: Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony.
Seriously? Wtf are you talking about? Maybe you should read his post first. Also what you think of TB is kind of off topic
Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.
TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.
Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.
But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA.
Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.
I am not saying that TB isn't legit. I putted it into "" because that is what TB tries to prove in his response. Best case scenario: TB is a nitpicker and can't handle that an article talks solely about a type of casting which didn't represented his own. Why? I don't know. I have assumptions though.
? Would you accuse Diggity of same thing? He posts same material basically agreeing with TB later in that thread. TB was simply disagreeing with the article, and I understand his sentiment because the article he was disagreeing on basically called out on every casters like TB. I suppose haters are gona hate.
On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote: Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony.
Why oh why do people never ever actually read the OP....it's painful...
sorry to quote train, but to be fair he DID say idra was a bad caster. he said he was a good "analyst" and then went on to educate on the difference between the two. i can see where you can infer that Ruscour was being hasty and bias, but c'mon, as someone so eloquently put on a random reddit thread "he who is without error rally the first baneling"
as far as this whole discussion goes, i saw NUMEROUS replies by tb to blind hate posts, but he never mentions WHY he went out on such a limb to make this point to an article imho he kinda took more serious than what it was....was it to once and for all dismiss the disinfo that an analyst and an announcer are two different positions? if so, why not reply to the author directly and ask him to put some of that in a post script edit? he would have gotten it no problem. why post it on reddit? was it to emphasize the importance of having a pure play by play guy and an analyst in sc2 matches, in order to make them entertaining and appealing to a wider base? that is a can of worms imo; and the jury is STILL out on the perfect "casting storm" for sc2 or rts esports or whatever esports (tastosis is the best imho and either one of them know more than tb does about sc thats for sure)
the only thing i can think of is to take a page from idra himself...controversy sells. i agree with 90 percent of what he says, but it comes off as a troll because idra is NOT trying to be a "caster" like how tb wants to be one....this point isnt brought up in the original article because again, its about what qualities you can TAKE from idra's commentary, not what idra needs to add to become day[10]...
and did he seal an ipl 2 return? he just might have. who knows what the intentions were unless its in that youtube reading of his rant, which i will watch after posting this.
edit: i also wanna address the whole "well [play-by-play] casters are a MUST for the growth of esports because its "popular" (the husky/hd theory)....i disagree 100 percent. you dont want this to become something its not, even at the sacrifice of a few sponsors to whore for, it seems like it would be more self serving to someone like tb who stands to make $$$ off views, but i love watching gsl because i get treated like a sc2 enthusiast not just another youtube ad click or whatever. saying what can garner the most popular support as being whats best for something is akin to saying jackie robinson shouldn't play baseball because he's black, i mean, think of the casual viewer who doesn't want to see or hear those "negroes" on the field! certainly you would have been more "popular" with more "financial support" for not doing so...does that make it right? is that putting the people most passionate about the game and the game most of all at heart?
On May 13 2011 19:28 Koshi wrote: Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.
TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.
Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.
But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA.
Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.
I am not saying that TB isn't legit. I putted it into "" because that is what TB tries to prove in his response. Best case scenario: TB is a nitpicker and can't handle that an article talks solely about a type of casting which didn't represented his own. Why? I don't know. I have assumptions though.
TB is just giving his opinion in a Reddit thread in the same way that all of us are giving our opinions in a TL thread. I don't think this is any different from Idra or Tyler or any other well-known figure giving an opinion in a measly forum thread, even if it's so inflammatory. It was never meant to be re-posted onto TL.net to spark this heated discussion, and I think TB's language is quite appropriate in the context that it was a measly comment to a measly Reddit post.
understand that TB is not directly insulting Idra, I read the article and the post.
However I think his philosophy for casting is incorrect. Sports casting is different from SC2 casting because of the pace of the game, as well as the scope. Most sports have strategy but are not hinged so much on it like starcraft. Of course basketball, football, soccer, hockey, ect have strategy but not to the point where it needs to be constantly remarked upon, instead the prowess of the players teamwork and backstory, is commented on as well as some play by play.
The sport that is the closest in my opinion would be baseball. It's relatively slow paced unlike most sports similar to starcraft (not constant action). It''s also based almost entirely on a one on one atmosphere (pitcher vs batter) and the strategy of batter / pitcher is complex and most important to commentate on. Only baseball can one player single handedly win a game for his team (shutout + a homerun). The game is also incredibly cerebral, you don't need to be an incredible athlete to compete, intelligence and understanding of the game is just as important, unlike sports like football / basketball (for the most part).
Now I am a huge baseball fan, and I notice that baseball casters are quite different from others generally. Play by play exists but they don't flood the airwaves with it, they stay reserved and calm. Obviously if something important happens they aknowledge it but they don't do much hype, They don't need to, as long as people understand the situation, it's hyped. At the same time, they have a conversation about the game, the strategy, what the players should do, or are thinking / should be thinking. To do this you need two players with knowledge of the game for it to work. This seems to hold up with starcraft 2, hence the most popular casters are tasteless and artosis, who follow this model fairly closely. They do the minimal play by play, while commenting on strategy, as well as do backstory / give information (what they should do), as well as entertain.
The reason why the TB method in my opinion is very uninteresting is because he is unable to hold up a conversation with the other commentator about the game. Just commentating is not interesting. It shouldn't be pass it back and forth every 2 minutes or just one guy constantly yapping on what's happening and nothing else, it should be a dialogue about the game, with the important details done in play by play. The only way I could see TB being interesting would be a 3 caster model, with 2 other analytical casters to discuss the game while he does play by play. Even then though, he would have to talk considerably less, to allow a dialogue.
It reminds me of when I watch broodwar, I always see people comment how much they love the korean casters, eventhough they can't understand them, which I find puzzling. Commentators are there to help people understand, and give insight and entertain. This isn't radio, we don't need to hear everything that's happening, we're not morons. I respect what TB is trying to do but to be honest, you're doing it wrong. I think the evidence that backs me up is the knowledgable fans absolutely hate your style, which is never a good sign. Lastly, as a sports fanatic, I find it ironic that the guy who strives to be most like a sports caster, I find the most intolerable. Unless we count klazart as a caster of course.
P.S. Sorry im on a laptop hard to type, may be some mistakes. Also I admit I haven't listened to TB commentary in months, I mute his casts, I find them completely unwatchable. So he might have changed his style recently, my opinions are based on older casts, I assume however he has not changed. P.S.S American league is not real baseball.
As an experiment, I would be very interested to watch one night of casting of a tournament without any play-by-play. The only play-by-play I would like to hear is the observer saying that he noticed there is something happening on the mini-map when he wants to stay with his view.
They should be people I like to hear talking, like Day9, Artosis, InControl or Painuser for example, and they should hold themselves back from describing anything on the screen that I can see for myself. They would only tell their opinion and talk about the play and bash or praise it or try to analyse what it means for the rest of the game or the series or the tournament. Also: when they do not have anything they want to talk about, still no play-by-play and instead silence!
I suspect I would like a cast like that a lot, but I still feel I have to see it before being convinced.
On May 13 2011 19:17 Rayven wrote: Totalbiscuit calling someone else a bad caster. Oh the irony.
Seriously? Wtf are you talking about? Maybe you should read his post first. Also what you think of TB is kind of off topic
Yeah, the problem is that somebody called IdrA his casting refreshing and more pleasant than the casting done by TB.
TB can't handle that so he goes into an offensive mode where he achieves to win some people their hearth by using the terminology of casting to criticize IdrA his sort of casting.
Then TL.net doesn't understand that TB is criticizing IdrA type of casting to make his own casting seem more "legit". But they make this completely about the persons IdrA and TB.
But the bottom line is: TB didn't like that an article said that his sort of casting was possible inferior to the casting style of IdrA.
Yes, that is probably what triggered TB's response, but that doesn't make what he is pointing out any less valid. His casting methods are in fact, "legit", proven by the fact that the most popular sc caster is hd/husky, and not some analytical casters.
Large part of HD/Huskys success is that they were sort of first movers on the SC2 scene by casting in beta. If they had tried making an appearance now they would drown in the sea of just as mediocre and uninteresting casters showing up every day on youtube.
If they weren't the best for the casual viewing (Not to mention most prolific), they wouldn't be as big as they are now. There are tens, if not hundreds of sc2 casters on youtube, and HD/husky survived through all that. That alone should tell you something, even if you dislike their casting. They also stuck with it, and remained prolific, putting way more work than other casters on youtube.
TB is right and has over 50 years of broadcasting buisness history as evidence. If you want a successful way to show SC2 for everyone then that is the way to go.
And to all the people who seem to dismiss this as irrelevant, since SC2 is "E-sport" and not a "real" sport:
You know a game called Starcraft 1, right?
Over 10 years of professional E-sport legacy.
And how are they broadcasting this "best" game ever, so average families and even grandparents watch it on TV?
They have two Idra/Artosis/some analysis guys and a guy who screams the shit out of a game for excitement.
Even more in finals matches than in average games.
I don't understand anything this guy screams but it doesn't matter since the energy of the screaming caster gets me pumped.
There are also a lot of funny compilations of OSL/MSL casters where they do nothing but casting a game but with a camera filming them scream and people seem to love it.
Maybe TB would be loved for his "Storrrrrrrmuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" here at Teamliquid if he would speak korean instead of english.
On May 13 2011 18:36 thirnaz wrote: Maybe for the average 12 year old WoW player this is true (me 6 years ago) but when you get older and actually UNDERSTAND the game you want someone analytical to explain in depth the small pieces that puts the puzzle together, someone like IdrA
I'm 29, Diamond league (though quite inactive) and prefer TB over IdrAs casts any day because i want to be entertained when i watch SC, not educated - i can watch replays on my own.
Calling everyone who prefers play-by-play 12 year old wow players with no SC skill is quite... condescending, especially since you are just quite a youngster yourself.
There are people who watch for entertainment and people who watch for insight, having someone like IdrA paired with an entertaining caster provides the best of both worlds, so why not have that?
So you prefer someone shitting all over your ears for X amount of minutes without you really knowing what is going on?
Yes. Yes, I do in fact prefer someone being excited and emotional about the game even if he sometimes gets things wrong or is not able to predict the build order from the timing of the first overlord.
I have eyes, i can see that one person is on 5 bases, the other on 3, so i know how the match will probably play out. I do not need someone explaining it to me... and usually i don't even care.
While the additional insight into the game is often interesting, a pure analytical approach is simply boring, most of what it tells me are things i can see myself and it usually lacks emotion and excitement (And TB is 100% right that either is not in IdrAs skillset (yet)).
If i had to chose pure play-by-play or pure analytical, i'd always chose play-by-play without hesitation.
BUT: In any case i'd prefer 2 casters, one of each type, to any solo casting.
I don't get why TB would ever post this. In all honesty, I would sooner take Idra as a solo commentator that TB. Personally, I can not stand when commentators call things wrong, or analyze the game wrong. TB committed this crime at least 10 times per game during the IPL. To me, that makes TB a terrible casters.
For TB to start the post with "Idra is not a good caster." was probably the stupidest thing you could start off a post like this with. TB is in no position at all too call Idra a bad caster. I'm not flaming TB, I just think that he's waaay off his rocker with this one.
You also say play by play means talking what's on the screen. This is NOT the case. Play by play caster is the one who constantly have to talk about something, whether it be about the player, the game itself, the weather or w/e in order to not have any awkward pauses.
Not really, play by play means exactly what it says, taking about the plays that are taking place.
I don't think that's what he mean when he talks about casting method. When there are more than 1 caster, it is obviously going to be more entertaining if casters engage in small talks about the game or the players. However, TB often casts himself so he must talk constantly about the events, otherwise there would be too many awkward pauses. If he were to cast in a multi person set up, of COURSE he has to talk less.
Not really my point, my point is he does too much play by play and not enough analysis. Casting yourself doesn't really work well, kind of my point. Also baseball has pauses in the commentary, although brief, you don't need to just talk constantly if you're saying nothing of worth.
TB's main point is casters are there to keep up the tension. Commentators are there to give insights. It is not exactly one guy constantly yapping away while the other guy occasionally jumps in to make a comment; their jobs are much more broad when it comes to multiple people casting together, but TB simplified for the sake of argument.
That's pretty much what I said. However I don't think totalbiscut does a good job in that aspect, he does play by play almost exclusively.
also, not everyone who watches starcraft plays starcraft. New viewers aren't going to necessarily have the basic understanding of the game to understand what 'commentators' like IdrA is saying.
I wasn't honestly commenting on IdrA tbh. Also I mentioned that announcers / casters are there to explain the situation, to build hype / tension as well as help out the new listeners.
And I'm telling you Play by Play entails things other than telling what's on the screen. TB sort of HAS to do this because, again, as you conveniently left out, he casts alone. If he doesn't talk about what's on the screen, there would be awkward silence because he doesn't have the analytical skills, and that would be bad. I'm 99% sure TB wouldn't be so focused in the game if he had another live human being he could talk to sitting beside him.
He also stated multiple times that he recognizes casting alone is NOT ideal. He wants an analytical caster beside him.
You are the one missing TB's point here.
Also Starcraft casting is different from Baseball in that it is much more light hearted environment. Pauses in sc2 casting would be rather feel awkward.
FFS its not about the skill anymore and who knows more about sc2 its about who is better caster and who knows more about casting! Idra is bad caster when he even knows how you are going to play out the next game :said the guy knowing how to cast. (How do ppl care about this stuff?If you don't like the casting there is always a mute button and the problem is solved + i would rather listen to idra and gain some knowledge than listen to some obvious stuff that can be seen)
well for i like idra's casting because i play the game and he really goes indepth but ye he doesn't have voice for making it sound fun BUT! thats what the other caster is for i feel
On May 13 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote: TB has a valid point if he is talking to the general casual population, but I think most people on TL would take IdrA's insight into decisions made in the game over HD or Husky try to make an obviously boring match exciting.
I think you're right. But the major fact is that MOST of viewers of GSL/TSL/NASL/ESL are casual viewers and players (like me).
If u want your tournament to be successfull, u must seduce these viewers in priority, and after them, TLers. That's the reason why i think TB is 100% right.
Esport needs money, so esport needs sponsors, sponsors needs a large audience, large audience is casual, esports need casual and non gamers, esports need commentators who can seduce them.
Idra, from my point of view, is not enough entertaining for this kind of viewers. And he doesn't have to yell or do some stupid things like Koreans commentators (personnal opinion, dont blame me), just a bit more jokes and emotions. Not too hard.
On May 13 2011 19:56 Papulatus wrote: I don't get why TB would ever post this. In all honesty, I would sooner take Idra as a solo commentator that TB. Personally, I can not stand when commentators call things wrong, or analyze the game wrong. TB committed this crime at least 10 times per game during the IPL. To me, that makes TB a terrible casters.
For TB to start the post with "Idra is not a good caster." was probably the stupidest thing you could start off a post like this with. TB is in no position at all too call Idra a bad caster. I'm not flaming TB, I just think that he's waaay off his rocker with this one.
although i disagree with your second paragraph the first one i do agree with. when watching both the ipl and nasl with people like catspajamas and TB they dont just play by play in the strickest sense, because its almost impossible to not have 'some' analysis. the gateway is dying => this is bad, is analysis, its almost unavoidable without becoming moderate temperature.
and the problem i have with this is that even in the tiny bit of analysis they do give, it was horribly wrong alot of the time. calling the wrong play, as a play-by-play guy is the worst thing. his job as he says is to build excitement and tension, but when they call something that just isnt happening or is wrong, that kills the excitement for me, it destroys my immersion in the cast.
when watching idra, he is monotone thats true. but honestly i don't care. it seems to be a habbit of nerds, or just people who dont need to speak much, that their voices sound so monotone when talking, im a victim of this myself. this makes it ok for me to still enjoy idras casting. he talks like i talk, so it doesnt break my immersion, infact it helps. his lack of stupid pitch changes or screaming into the mic means he can be listened to as a background sound while you watch and enjoy the game. he can easily blend into the production where as people screaming down the mics that things are so exciting break my immersion.
this is what it comes down to for me. can i immerse myself in the production, be completely interested in it and not bothered by whats going on around me for the duration of the time. with idra i almost always can. he only speaks when theres actually something to say, he says whats really happening, and his voice isnt overpowering. for a lot of the play by play guys they seem to think the show is about them with starcraft in the background. screaming and saying stupid things really break the immersion for me and i find it hard to enjoy or concentrate on the game. if they want to be a play by play guy i can actually stand to listen to, they just need to play the game for 5 years and smoke 100 a day to become the new tasteless.
TB is right and i love the ppl who read the title and write an angry response when they dosnt even read the whole thing!
This show yet again a missleading title can make some hate come up to the surface. I see now the Thread started changed it but GJ with the missleading title to begin with.
On May 13 2011 19:41 Demonace34 wrote: If this was posted on battlenet or any other community of more casual SC2 plays I would agree with his criticism.
The post was originally posted on reddit, and it's a reply to someone's blog somewhere on the net, so you can feel free to agree with them. I actually disagree with what you say above, I think it's the teamliquid people who need to grok what he's saying more than the normals and the casuals out there.
Unfortunately (or fortunately?) TL isn't usually for the casual player and is looked at as elitist and whatnot because of this.
TL's reputation for elitism might take a big nosedive if everyone just read through the replies in this thread and saw what a massive clusterfuck of reading comprehension fail and overzealous reply-button-clicking was going on in this thread. (Not directed at you of course!)
TB has a valid point if he is talking to the general casual population, but I think most people on TL would take IdrA's insight into decisions made in the game over HD or Husky try to make an obviously boring match exciting.
Except that he's talking about the NASL commentary, and he was replying specifically to someone who thought exactly like your characterisation of a teamliquid user. It's exactly those guys who don't get his point (that the play by play guys are necessary for a significant chunk of the viewing population to enjoy watching Starcraft - and conversely, the analytical guys are necessary to help them know what's going on). The guys who know their Starcraft would be happy with the bare replay file and just doing their own observation and analysis and commenting. It's the casuals and the newbies who need the commentary in the first place!
If the NASL was just aiming at teamliquid users, then maybe Idra would be the perfect caster and maybe TotalBiscuit would be wrong. But NASL isn't trying to just sell itself to the teamliquid users, it's trying to reach as many viewers as possible. And that really does mean that you need someone with the entertainment-oriented skills needed to complement Idra's obvious analytical abilities (I vote for Jason Lee again!). As far as I can tell, TB is right on this, no matter where he's posting it or who he's talking to.
BUT ... he's wooden and not a great caster. People watch him because of who he is, not his casting. I totally agree with TB, who incidentally is a great solo caster. Both DJwheat and Chill have said this about TB.
On May 13 2011 19:24 Coolwhip wrote: You gotto give TB credit for getting attention.
Yesterday he probably went like: 'MMMmm.... what can I do to get attention and hopefully more subcribers today? .. I got it! Let's write something about casting. Wait, that wont grab that much attention. Aha! I'll add in Idra and how he is bad at casting' Instant thousands of fanboys being all over it.
One does not write a goddamn book about an article just for drama and attention. One would just throw out a line or two of smack and drama would flow harder, because idiots wouldn't have to bother thinking about it.
You mean a line or two at the start of his article like this? "he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion."
You seem to take this pretty personal. You posted your opinion some page ago and thats fine. Why dont you leave other people have their opinions? All your posts on the last 10 or so pages do nothing but question other people. dont do it! Let the readers decides what they think of every single post and don`t take yourself to serious. imagine everyone would start to post like you do right know. Even right know it is a pain to read through all the comments of people who clearly have not even read the OP, but when guys like you start quoting all kinds of other peoples posts, just because they dont agree with it, it gets out of line.
Well I created the thread, so I do feel some investment in it. I have a few feelings about this that I'd like to make clear then leave the thread I suppose as you're right, I'm just repeating myself to different people trying to get my point across and gaining no ground, which should be expected as people online are pretty stubborn (myself included I suppose). I do feel TB made a cheapshot/slam/personal attack on IdrA, even if it was indirect or even unintentional.
The topic and basis of the gosu.com article had nothing to do with IdrA being an energetic/analytical/entertaining caster. The article was about how blunt and upfront he was about how the game was going and if calling the early GG was a good thing or not. Now with that said I feel that TB's comment was out of place and unwarranted because it was irrelevant to the topic, and IdrA's energy/skill/flow wasn't addressed again.
I feel that TB wants e-sports casting, more specifically SC2 to be cast in a style that he does, because he basically outlines what should/shouldn't be done, which is his opinion and something that I don't agree with.
I think that a strategic game requires a deeper analytical casting than what a "hype man" provides, that being said I watched some of the NASL games and IdrA wasn't the analytical robot that he's being made out be, also the article completely ignores the fact that IdrA wasn't casting alone. Of course I think the play by play and color commentator is an ideal setup, that's not the point. The point is TB took an article about being blunt and up front and his rebuttal is that IdrA is a bad caster and then goes on to state how he thinks that games should be hyped up and you shouldn't be blunt and upfront about a game, always keep up the tension. This brings up the discussion that there are 2 different styles of casting and which type is the preference of the viewers, which leads us to where we are now, although in this thread it does boil down to TB vs IdrA directly.
What I see is a quiet version of Joe Rogan in Idra. Is that really a problem to have? Idra is one the very very few people that commentate SC2 that actually have a high level of understanding of the game, and is able to communicate that, albeit in an unexciting fashion.
What you don't want, is an SC2 version of the Strikeforce commentating team
p.s when did Idra actually call the early gg? I just watched the moon vs rainbow games and + Show Spoiler +
both games he called the gg about 1 minute before it happened
Reply after reply of people throwing around words like analytical and casual etc. Idra is not explaining how to split the atom folks. The decision making and strategic side of the game is not as complicated as people seem to believe. Posters are giving VERY little credit to these so called 'casuals' believing when they listen to Idra cast NASL that they are in fact listening to a lecture on quantum physics.
total biscuits problem ,as always, is that he thinks that sports casting/e-sports casting require the same skills and/or should work the same way...
no idra isn't the caster that generates the most excitement , that shows the most emotion...nor does he need to be as the analyst of a casting duo.But he definately SHOULD call out if a game is essentially over... there's just no point hyping it up if one of the players fucks up so monumentally that he's impossibly far behind,or if it's "almost impossible to hold this push"ect.
and on caster types... maybe there isn't a moment in physical sports where knowing just too little is bad for play-by-play commentators, but in starcraft there IS.
tb doesn't know anything about it above gold/plat level , and trys to make it up in screaming bullshit like so many other casters... which is fine for youtube but doesn'T belong in a big league
so in conclusion idra > pointless screaming ... excitement or no
Wow, the amount of disrespect towards TB is sickening. I guess reddit system is indeed much better as the discussion seems way more mature than here were people insult TB without any basis.
On May 13 2011 20:26 sanya wrote: total biscuits problem ,as always, is that he thinks that sports casting/e-sports casting require the same skills and/or should work the same way...
no idra isn't the caster that generates the most excitement , that shows the most emotion...nor does he need to be as the analyst of a casting duo.But he definately SHOULD call out if a game is essentially over... there's just no point hyping it up if one of the players fucks up so monumentally that he's impossibly far behind,or if it's "almost impossible to hold this push"ect.
and on caster types... maybe there isn't a moment in physical sports where knowing just too little is bad for play-by-play commentators, but in starcraft there IS.
tb doesn't know anything about it above gold/plat level , and trys to make it up in screaming bullshit like so many other casters... which is fine for youtube but doesn'T belong in a big league
so in conclusion idra > pointless screaming ... excitement or no
Koreans treat it as such and they have some of the highest quality casting in esports. You should realize hardcore sc players are not the majority of esports viewers anymore in the West.
Big league Korean casters entail both types of casting, and the reason for their 3 caster set up. Each of them focuses on their strength, casters on entertainment, and commentators focus on analysis. In order for esports to grow, we NEED both kinds of casting.
On May 13 2011 20:26 sanya wrote: total biscuits problem ,as always, is that he thinks that sports casting/e-sports casting require the same skills and/or should work the same way...
no idra isn't the caster that generates the most excitement , that shows the most emotion...nor does he need to be as the analyst of a casting duo.But he definately SHOULD call out if a game is essentially over... there's just no point hyping it up if one of the players fucks up so monumentally that he's impossibly far behind,or if it's "almost impossible to hold this push"ect.
and on caster types... maybe there isn't a moment in physical sports where knowing just too little is bad for play-by-play commentators, but in starcraft there IS.
tb doesn't know anything about it above gold/plat level , and trys to make it up in screaming bullshit like so many other casters... which is fine for youtube but doesn'T belong in a big league
so in conclusion idra > pointless screaming ... excitement or no
Koreans treat it as such and they have some of the highest quality casting in esports. You should realize hardcore sc players are not the majority of esports viewers anymore in the West.
Big league Korean casters entail both types of casting, and the reason for their 3 caster set up. Each of them focuses on their strength, casters on entertainment, and commentators focus on analysis. In order for esports to grow, we NEED both kinds of casting.
TB is right, that said I like idras casting but he can be a little flat sometimes. I like it when casters get excited, why would I get excited about a match even the casters arnt excited about? Put him next to someone like TB And the problem in solved. Plenty excitement and plenty analysis.
This really isn't a big deal, someone saying idra has some basic faults in his casting really shouldn't be surprising, he is a pro gamer not a pro caster.
omg... so many ppl are defending idra... and he wasn't even attacked... like... wtf mates?
btw I have a solution to everyone's problem if game "is over" close the stream. so noobs such as myself can enjoy game with some hype and screams. (seriously all I want is "player A has huge advantage" instead of "player B should gg")
On May 13 2011 20:26 sanya wrote: total biscuits problem ,as always, is that he thinks that sports casting/e-sports casting require the same skills and/or should work the same way...
no idra isn't the caster that generates the most excitement , that shows the most emotion...nor does he need to be as the analyst of a casting duo.But he definately SHOULD call out if a game is essentially over... there's just no point hyping it up if one of the players fucks up so monumentally that he's impossibly far behind,or if it's "almost impossible to hold this push"ect.
and on caster types... maybe there isn't a moment in physical sports where knowing just too little is bad for play-by-play commentators, but in starcraft there IS.
tb doesn't know anything about it above gold/plat level , and trys to make it up in screaming bullshit like so many other casters... which is fine for youtube but doesn'T belong in a big league
so in conclusion idra > pointless screaming ... excitement or no
Koreans treat it as such and they have some of the highest quality casting in esports. You should realize hardcore sc players are not the majority of esports viewers anymore in the West.
Big league Korean casters entail both types of casting, and the reason for their 3 caster set up. Each of them focuses on their strength, casters on entertainment, and commentators focus on analysis. In order for esports to grow, we NEED both kinds of casting.
please read my post again ty
? I didn't miss anything
Korean casters are often gold/plat level as well, and they have much higher quality than most western esports casters. I don't understand what you're trying to say. TB specialize in casting, in fact hes professionally trained for it. IdrA I guess "specialize" in commentating.
Not many people are going to have both aspects readily available like Day9 or OGN commentators.
Also TB specifically points out that Idra is a great commentator, but he is a bad caster; so it's redundant for you to say so.
On May 13 2011 20:34 Egyptian_Head wrote: TB is right, that said I like idras casting but he can be a little flat sometimes. I like it when casters get excited, why would I get excited about a match even the casters arnt excited about? Put him next to someone like TB And the problem in solved. Plenty excitement and plenty analysis.
This really isn't a big deal, someone saying idra has some basic faults in his casting really shouldn't be surprising, he is a pro gamer not a pro caster.
it could be just me here but they DID put him beside someone that is more energetic ... TWICE
TB's casting philosphy is basically to be a shill for whatever organization is hosting the tournament. "Everyone look at how excited I am, because I am excited you should be excited too!"
It's stupid. It's an insult to the more knowledgeable spectators and it does nothing to bridge the experience gap and educate new spectators. If you don't educate new spectators they quickly become non spectators which is why TB is BAD for the SC2 pro scene. There is no credibility with TB's style of casting and his lack of analytical skills is far worse a concern than Idra's lack of showmanship which is why Bobby Knight can get get a job as an NCAA Basketball Commentator and David Letterman or Conan O'Brien couldn't in a million years. There is no established spectator sport that would abide ignorant casters for a micro second, nor false hype. Without credibility you cheapen the truly exciting moments in the game(imagine TB casting the Nestea vs SC series).
I don't even agree that his casting philosophy is valid or represented in any established spectator sport. There are two very popular forms of dual commentary:
One consists of two very knowledgeable players one of whom does the play by play casting and then during the less eventful moments engages in analysis with his co-commentator. In SC2 usually the more play by play commentator is doing the observing while the commentator playing the analyst is looking everywhere the observing player isn't trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to figure out exactly what's going on, basically what Tasteless and Artosis do. When Artosis finds something important and exciting he interrupts Tasteless and builds excitement for the viewer by sharing with it with us and educating us at the same time. Otherwise when nothing exciting is actually happening on the screen and Artosis doesn't interject, Tasteless transitions out of the play by play and engages in analysis with Artosis, debating where the game will go from here, what each player should do or what cues they should pick up on, maybe what other players have done in the past or how a player can come back from a disadvantage, even stating that a player is straight up dead and why.
The other is a more Day[9] and DJWheat style where Wheat's game knowledge is clearly inferior to Day[9]'s but he is more than capable of steering the commentary, doing the play by play and generally playing host. He also plays the role of student while Day[9] plays the instructor in way that the audience can both follow the action and learn from the answers Day[9] gives to DJWheat's questions. Wheat can ask a question or pose a theory on what a player intends to do and ask Day[9] to comment on it, or Day[9] can take control if he sees something happening that's important and DJWheat isn't even aware is happening.
These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
I think play-by-play commentary is pretty redundant in sc2, assuming you're not targeting a tiny fraction of newbies. Analytical commentary is the only sort of commentary that doesn't get muted when I watch tourneys, unless the caster is exceptionally funny or something.
On May 13 2011 20:30 Andorra wrote: Wow, the amount of disrespect towards TB is sickening. I guess reddit system is indeed much better as the discussion seems way more mature than here were people insult TB without any basis.
On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote: He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
"IdrA is not a good caster" How do you misinterpret that!?
Totalbiscuit isn't doing this to help IdrA, if he did he would tell IdrA in private, he is simply doing this to discredit IdrA because a significant amount of people (enough to warrant an article) prefer IdrA's casting style over that of his own.
Let me put it this way. As a public figure, you will be discussed publicly.
i think idra has been doing a great job as a color commentator. he isnt filling both roles, gretorp has been calling most of the play by plays, while he does the analysis. i dont feel that in his role, he has the need to be overly emotional, im pretty sure most people here are fine with the color commentator just providing sound analysis of the game, it isnt his job to get all excited about the plays happening.
just look at hubie brown or any other color commentator in any sport for that matter
On May 13 2011 20:39 hifriend wrote: I think play-by-play commentary is pretty redundant in sc2, assuming you're not targeting a tiny fraction of newbies. Analytical commentary is the only sort of commentary that doesn't get muted when I watch tourneys, unless the caster is exceptionally funny or something.
I hope you realize that teamliquid is a minority, right? We've got around 7500 active members, whereas there's over a million people who bought the game.
On May 13 2011 20:38 Ziggitz wrote: TB's casting philosphy is basically to be a shill for whatever organization is hosting the tournament. "Everyone look at how excited I am, because I am excited you should be excited too!"
It's stupid. It's an insult to the more knowledgeable spectators and it does nothing to bridge the experience gap and educate new spectators. If you don't educate new spectators they quickly become non spectators which is why TB is BAD for the SC2 pro scene. There is no credibility with TB's style of casting and his lack of analytical skills is far worse a concern than Idra's lack of showmanship which is why Bobby Knight can get get a job as an NCAA Basketball Commentator and David Letterman or Conan O'Brien couldn't in a million years. There is no established spectator sport that would abide ignorant casters for a micro second, nor false hype. Without credibility you cheapen the truly exciting moments in the game(imagine TB casting the Nestea vs SC series).
I don't even agree that his casting philosophy is valid or represented in any established spectator sport. There are two very popular forms of dual commentary:
One consists of two very knowledgeable players one of whom does the play by play casting and then during the less eventful moments engages in analysis with his co-commentator. In SC2 usually the more play by play commentator is doing the observing while the commentator playing the analyst is looking everywhere the observing player isn't trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to figure out exactly what's going on, basically what Tasteless and Artosis do. When Artosis finds something important and exciting he interrupts Tasteless and builds excitement for the viewer by sharing with it with us and educating us at the same time. Otherwise when nothing exciting is actually happening on the screen and Artosis doesn't interject, Tasteless transitions out of the play by play and engages in analysis with Artosis, debating where the game will go from here, what each player should do or what cues they should pick up on, maybe what other players have done in the past or how a player can come back from a disadvantage, even stating that a player is straight up dead and why.
The other is a more Day[9] and DJWheat style where Wheat's game knowledge is clearly inferior to Day[9]'s but he is more than capable of steering the commentary, doing the play by play and generally playing host. He also plays the role of student while Day[9] plays the instructor in way that the audience can both follow the action and learn from the answers Day[9] gives to DJWheat's questions. Wheat can ask a question or pose a theory on what a player intends to do and ask Day[9] to comment on it, or Day[9] can take control if he sees something happening that's important and DJWheat isn't even aware is happening.
These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
Funny how TB's stream gets more viewers than most pro players, he must be doing something right ... all the idra fan boys need to stop defending as Idra wasn't attacked in the first place ...
i was never too fond of totalbiscuit, he comes off as rude and arrogant in his casts, ive noticed this many times, and its the sole reason i dont like watching him
On May 13 2011 20:38 Ziggitz wrote: TB's casting philosphy is basically to be a shill for whatever organization is hosting the tournament. "Everyone look at how excited I am, because I am excited you should be excited too!"
It's stupid. It's an insult to the more knowledgeable spectators and it does nothing to bridge the experience gap and educate new spectators. If you don't educate new spectators they quickly become non spectators which is why TB is BAD for the SC2 pro scene. There is no credibility with TB's style of casting and his lack of analytical skills is far worse a concern than Idra's lack of showmanship which is why Bobby Knight can get get a job as an NCAA Basketball Commentator and David Letterman or Conan O'Brien couldn't in a million years. There is no established spectator sport that would abide ignorant casters for a micro second, nor false hype. Without credibility you cheapen the truly exciting moments in the game(imagine TB casting the Nestea vs SC series).
I don't even agree that his casting philosophy is valid or represented in any established spectator sport. There are two very popular forms of dual commentary:
One consists of two very knowledgeable players one of whom does the play by play casting and then during the less eventful moments engages in analysis with his co-commentator. In SC2 usually the more play by play commentator is doing the observing while the commentator playing the analyst is looking everywhere the observing player isn't trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to figure out exactly what's going on, basically what Tasteless and Artosis do. When Artosis finds something important and exciting he interrupts Tasteless and builds excitement for the viewer by sharing with it with us and educating us at the same time. Otherwise when nothing exciting is actually happening on the screen and Artosis doesn't interject, Tasteless transitions out of the play by play and engages in analysis with Artosis, debating where the game will go from here, what each player should do or what cues they should pick up on, maybe what other players have done in the past or how a player can come back from a disadvantage, even stating that a player is straight up dead and why.
The other is a more Day[9] and DJWheat style where Wheat's game knowledge is clearly inferior to Day[9]'s but he is more than capable of steering the commentary, doing the play by play and generally playing host. He also plays the role of student while Day[9] plays the instructor in way that the audience can both follow the action and learn from the answers Day[9] gives to DJWheat's questions. Wheat can ask a question or pose a theory on what a player intends to do and ask Day[9] to comment on it, or Day[9] can take control if he sees something happening that's important and DJWheat isn't even aware is happening.
These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
This man is a professional spectator telling the professional caster what is up.
Leave the spectating to the spectators and the best casters will have the best following.
These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
Reputable leagues and broadcasters also hire casters who are professionally trained to speak.
TB's methods are very similar to djWheat's. I don't see how you set them apart like you did; TB simply has to focus more on the game because he often casts alone. That's the key. He casts alone most of the time, so he has to talk about the game because he can't really talk about strategy. If he had another human being to talk to like djWheat almost always does, they would fulfill a very similar role.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
Korean example says otherwise. To grow a scene you need someone to entertain, not to educate them to the level of a pro player. Korean commentators build excitement and create entertainment. They talk about in depth strategy, but it is not their main focus.
Personally I think that especially due to his experience IdrA is a very good analytical commentator. I agree that there should be a combination of play-by-play and analysis but I think it odd that TB should be bashing on him because he brings a high degree of analysis to the table, more than almost anyone else.
Also the probably main problem I have with TB is that he too often makes blatantly wrong statements (seeing IPL) and I think that that really takes away from the quality of a cast when the caster has no idea of what's going on.
Unfortunately, for the future of SC2 as e-sport, TB is extremely right. When you'll have 90% of the spectator base be people that haven't ever touched SC2 you're gonna have to give up of the technical casting, most of it anyway. It's how shit works, you can't have a large/popular scene and keep with the cryptic (from the random viewer's pov) comments.
Not sure how many went to a football game but the best part when being there isn't even the game, it's the atmosphere and you miss a lot of stuff you'd catch on TV but it's nowhere near as spectacular. And spectacular for the random person is what SC2 needs not 100% of the game in technical commentary which most of the people here don't need anyway. I love to have the game explained in minute details in terms of reasoning, strats but I can tell you if someone just wants entertainment they'll just get bored. They want screaming, shouting, excitement.
The knowledgeable spectators should expect and no, want to get shoved to the side if they care for the development of the game for the public.
On May 13 2011 20:46 Scisyhp wrote: Personally I think that especially due to his experience IdrA is a very good analytical commentator. I agree that there should be a combination of play-by-play and analysis but I think it odd that TB should be bashing on him because he brings a high degree of analysis to the table, more than almost anyone else.
Also the probably main problem I have with TB is that he too often makes blatantly wrong statements (seeing IPL) and I think that that really takes away from the quality of a cast when the caster has no idea of what's going on.
For Gods sake read the OP!! He wasn't bashing Idra...
On May 13 2011 20:35 Nayl wrote: ? I didn't miss anything
Korean casters are often gold/plat level as well, and they have much higher quality than most western esports casters. I don't understand what you're trying to say. TB specialize in casting, in fact hes professionally trained for it. IdrA I guess "specialize" in commentating.
Not many people are going to have both aspects readily available like Day9 or OGN commentators.
Also TB specifically points out that Idra is a great commentator, but he is a bad caster; so it's redundant for you to say so.
my point is why would you get tb to be the play-by-play guy in one of the biggest tournaments while having other play-by-play commentators available that know way more and are just as exciting ?
see incontrol just for an example of what i'm talking about he knows a ton about sc2 and he isn't excactly what i'd call boring to listen to
My Roommate does not play games a lot, if at all. he has SOME rts knowledge from LANs way back when, but his knowledge of sc2 is very limited.yet he LOVES watching sc2 especially when cast by play by play casters like tb. he enjoys the analytical part as well, but for him husky and tb are the far more enjoyable casters to watch. He likes watching me play as well and i always explain to him what im doing.
my point is: the tb bashing here is completely immature and unwarranted. this elitist attitude is actually hampering sc2s progression as an esport. soccer is watched by millions even if they dont play at all or are only very casual players. this is also because of the commentary provided by play by play commentators. tbs criticism is completely legitimate and even though i dont watch him that often because i prefer day 9 and other more analytical casters huskys and tbs popularity on youtube should be evidence enough that these casters do WONDERS for the advancement of sc2 as an esport.
Idra as a solo caster is just as misplaced as TotalBiscuit playing in the GSL.
But Idra in a co-caster situation is really awesome, for any tournament to have. Let him talk about the map, about the strategy their could pick, tech route, some post-game comment on what when wrong for the losing player and so on, and let the main caster (someone as TotalBiscuit) do the most of the casting/talking when the game is going on, and when the battle are raging.
On May 13 2011 20:38 Ziggitz wrote: TB's casting philosphy is basically to be a shill for whatever organization is hosting the tournament. "Everyone look at how excited I am, because I am excited you should be excited too!"
It's stupid. It's an insult to the more knowledgeable spectators and it does nothing to bridge the experience gap and educate new spectators. If you don't educate new spectators they quickly become non spectators which is why TB is BAD for the SC2 pro scene. There is no credibility with TB's style of casting and his lack of analytical skills is far worse a concern than Idra's lack of showmanship which is why Bobby Knight can get get a job as an NCAA Basketball Commentator and David Letterman or Conan O'Brien couldn't in a million years. There is no established spectator sport that would abide ignorant casters for a micro second, nor false hype. Without credibility you cheapen the truly exciting moments in the game(imagine TB casting the Nestea vs SC series).
I don't even agree that his casting philosophy is valid or represented in any established spectator sport. There are two very popular forms of dual commentary:
One consists of two very knowledgeable players one of whom does the play by play casting and then during the less eventful moments engages in analysis with his co-commentator. In SC2 usually the more play by play commentator is doing the observing while the commentator playing the analyst is looking everywhere the observing player isn't trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to figure out exactly what's going on, basically what Tasteless and Artosis do. When Artosis finds something important and exciting he interrupts Tasteless and builds excitement for the viewer by sharing with it with us and educating us at the same time. Otherwise when nothing exciting is actually happening on the screen and Artosis doesn't interject, Tasteless transitions out of the play by play and engages in analysis with Artosis, debating where the game will go from here, what each player should do or what cues they should pick up on, maybe what other players have done in the past or how a player can come back from a disadvantage, even stating that a player is straight up dead and why.
The other is a more Day[9] and DJWheat style where Wheat's game knowledge is clearly inferior to Day[9]'s but he is more than capable of steering the commentary, doing the play by play and generally playing host. He also plays the role of student while Day[9] plays the instructor in way that the audience can both follow the action and learn from the answers Day[9] gives to DJWheat's questions. Wheat can ask a question or pose a theory on what a player intends to do and ask Day[9] to comment on it, or Day[9] can take control if he sees something happening that's important and DJWheat isn't even aware is happening.
These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
On May 13 2011 20:47 Parnass wrote: Just to back up TBs point.
My Roommate does not play games a lot, if at all. he has SOME rts knowledge from LANs way back when, but his knowledge of sc2 is very limited.yet he LOVES watching sc2 especially when cast by play by play casters like tb. he enjoys the analytical part as well, but for him husky and tb are the far more enjoyable casters to watch. He likes watching me play as well and i always explain to him what im doing.
my point is: the tb bashing here is completely immature and unwarranted. this elitist attitude is actually hampering sc2s progression as an esport. soccer is watched by millions even if they dont play at all or are only very casual players. this is also because of the commentary provided by play by play commentators. tbs criticism is completely legitimate and even though i dont watch him that often because i prefer day 9 and other more analytical casters huskys and tbs popularity on youtube should be evidence enough that these casters do WONDERS for the advancement of sc2 as an esport.
This is true. I'm a very casual follower of football and if it wasn't for the great play-by-play i wouldn't be as interested. Color commentary is also interesting but SC2 has a very skewed blend where the color commenter is more prominent than the guy doing the play-by-play.
I really liked the Appolo/DeMuslim cast of Dreamhack. They were very relaxed and had a great mix of play-by-play and analysis. TB is cool but his knowledge is a bit low, most sports casters have alot deeper knowledge of the game than that. Guess he'll learn by working with the IPL.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
Wrong, if you want to make the scene grow, you need to make the casting entertaining. Many of the people who follow TB won't ever follow Day9, Artosis or any "non-play by play casters". Try to "educate" them and they will leave, becaue they don't care - many don't even play the game.
Players must be educated. Spectators must be entertained. That's two completely different types of audience - and even some players watch the matches for fun, not to learn something. As many people said, you follow Day9 to get better at the game, NOT to relax and enjoy the show. In other words, you only follow professionnal players who cast if you're already playing Starcraft 2. On the other hand, you can certainly follow professional casters even if you don't care about being in master league.
Sure, IdrA might not be the most entertaining caster, but his insight into the game is so incredible that it easily makes up for the lack of pointless screaming.
The problem with TB is yes he is good at play by play but that's it. He never casts with someone that's like a Idra that knows what he's actually talking about so it just ends up with him sounding like a fucking retard to people that know more then a move. He's trying to get better at the game (which is good) but till then he really needs a commentator that knows more then what's going on the stream. Fuck If he just did straight up radio casting where we didn't see the game and just listened to his voice maybe then It would be better. also TB I know you hate everything I say so I will end it with you should go visit your local dentist every 6 months.
On May 13 2011 20:47 sanya wrote: my point is why would you get tb to be the play-by-play guy in one of the biggest tournaments while having other play-by-play commentators available that know way more and are just as exciting ?
see incontrol just for an example of what i'm talking about he knows a ton about sc2 and he isn't excactly what i'd call boring to listen to
That is a reasonable argument, while conforming to TBs point.
I personally don't like TotalBiscuits style at all. But he was correct on his assesment of Idra as a commentator. And I don't think Idra aspires to be anything but what TB labelled him as, so I would not expect him to be offended by TBs words in the slightest.
For all the issues I have with Idras personality and arguments sometimes, listening to him in his NASL commentary lately has been a treat. He reads and calls plays with a speed and precision that I have not seen/heard anyone do before in SC2 casts.
But he definately needs someone beside him to liven the cast up. It should be entertaining. It serves the e-sports scene well to have enthusiasm injected into the casts, tempered by precise insights. Theres a reason that most sportscommentaries these days are done in pairs and with the same setup of a speaker and an analyzer/pro. One to deliver flow and one to deliver insight.
That might come at the price of a little overhyping/overenthusiasm, but in the end its better entertainment and therefore better for the development of e-sports.
I'm a huge IdrA fan and really enjoy listening to him but I think it's completely irrational to deny that IdrA is not particularly animated, which is really all TB is saying here. IdrA is not the guy that's going to get the casual/non-player stoked about watching SC2.
I do think TB went a little overboard in criticizing the article though. I read it myself before I saw TB's response and I felt like all they were really saying is they appreciated IdrA's willingness to be a little blunt and not try to find a silver lining in every situation. They weren't trying to hold IdrA up as an example of what all casters should aspire to be.
imho casters should be primarily entertaining. Most of the high level players will know what's going on regardless what the casters are telling them, while most of the low level players just want to see an interesting match. I doubt they want to know the really technical stuff behind it. Trying to analyse a match too much during the game feels a bit of an insult to the viewers intelligence. However, I love it when they can get viewers excited by correctly predicting certain engagements or crazy builds. If they fill up the dull parts of a game with jokes or anecdotes on the players, like the first few minutes or when they're just macro'ing up while not engaging, then they're doing a good job. I feel the same about this with any sport btw, i hate it when football casters are too analytical. Save that for the half-time break or after the match.
On May 13 2011 20:59 Snickersnee wrote: The problem with TB is yes you is good at play by play but that's it. He never casts with someone that's like a Idra that knows what he's actually talking about so it just ends up with him sounding like a fucking retard to people that know more then a move. He's trying to get better at the game (which is good) but till then he really needs a commentator that knows more then what's going on the stream. Fuck If he just did straight up radio casting where we didn't see the game and just listened to his voice maybe then It would be better. also TB I know you hate everything I say so I will end it with you should go visit your local dentist every 6 months.
On May 13 2011 20:38 Ziggitz wrote: TB's casting philosphy is basically to be a shill for whatever organization is hosting the tournament. "Everyone look at how excited I am, because I am excited you should be excited too!"
It's stupid. It's an insult to the more knowledgeable spectators and it does nothing to bridge the experience gap and educate new spectators. If you don't educate new spectators they quickly become non spectators which is why TB is BAD for the SC2 pro scene. There is no credibility with TB's style of casting and his lack of analytical skills is far worse a concern than Idra's lack of showmanship which is why Bobby Knight can get get a job as an NCAA Basketball Commentator and David Letterman or Conan O'Brien couldn't in a million years. There is no established spectator sport that would abide ignorant casters for a micro second, nor false hype. Without credibility you cheapen the truly exciting moments in the game(imagine TB casting the Nestea vs SC series).
I don't even agree that his casting philosophy is valid or represented in any established spectator sport. There are two very popular forms of dual commentary:
One consists of two very knowledgeable players one of whom does the play by play casting and then during the less eventful moments engages in analysis with his co-commentator. In SC2 usually the more play by play commentator is doing the observing while the commentator playing the analyst is looking everywhere the observing player isn't trying to put the pieces of the puzzle together to figure out exactly what's going on, basically what Tasteless and Artosis do. When Artosis finds something important and exciting he interrupts Tasteless and builds excitement for the viewer by sharing with it with us and educating us at the same time. Otherwise when nothing exciting is actually happening on the screen and Artosis doesn't interject, Tasteless transitions out of the play by play and engages in analysis with Artosis, debating where the game will go from here, what each player should do or what cues they should pick up on, maybe what other players have done in the past or how a player can come back from a disadvantage, even stating that a player is straight up dead and why.
The other is a more Day[9] and DJWheat style where Wheat's game knowledge is clearly inferior to Day[9]'s but he is more than capable of steering the commentary, doing the play by play and generally playing host. He also plays the role of student while Day[9] plays the instructor in way that the audience can both follow the action and learn from the answers Day[9] gives to DJWheat's questions. Wheat can ask a question or pose a theory on what a player intends to do and ask Day[9] to comment on it, or Day[9] can take control if he sees something happening that's important and DJWheat isn't even aware is happening.
These two models are pretty much what you'll find in any well established spectator sport in one form or another and you won't find anything like what TB does. You'll find TB's philosophy of casting at the dog races, the horse track, the rock paper scissors world championship, the world's strongest man competition, the circus. Reputable leagues and Broadcasters hire authorities on the games in question which is why so many ex coaches and players end up becoming commentators. Further more TB's style doesn't really fit into any either of the two models above and they are both the kind of models that can provide the depth that veteran viewers want while providing insight and education for newer viewers at the same time.
At the end of the day TB's viewers will not stick around and Idra's will, to grow the scene you need someone who can educate new viewers to the point where they can appreciate the analysis that the pro gamer commentators do. Otherwise they're just going to lose interest because they will grow tired of such a shallow experience as they'll have none of the depth that the more educated fans have to appreciate.
This man is a professional spectator telling the professional caster what is up.
Leave the spectating to the spectators and the best casters will have the best following.
I don't get the article. It doesn't have much structure, and it seems the article is trying to say that IdrA sucks as a "Caster" and is good as an "analyst".
Seems like the confusion is the semantic difference between a caster and an analyst.
To me, IdrA is just Artosis without any vocal flare. That's not supposed to be a knock on IdrA because he doesn't intend to be a caster. He does provide amazing insight, but he's just not all that exciting. To an extent I like listening to DjWheat and TB in that they are entertaining and have a lot of passion for the game that comes out in their voices, but I do feel that their game sense means that I'm missing out on some intrigue as a player.
However, I think that the knowledgeable players and commentators go way too far sometimes. Like Painuser during the EG team league cast. WAY too much time spent saying "so-and-so is going for... ummm... X strategy... or... um.... let's see... it could be... Y". Commentators should be there to predict what the player IS doing. No good sport works that way. We're not expecting you to be a psychic. We want to know what the player's options are, and we may want to know what YOU would do in the same situation. This gives us a baseline. Something we can check the play against in our own mind. When we notice diversions from what you tell us, it sparks our interest. The player then is playing "uniquely".
Telling people that game is "over" is also a bit of a buzzkill. You can build suspense by continually tallying how behind the player is and really emphasizing the nearly impossible task ahead of them. Certainly if it's laughable how behiind they are, no need to sugar coat it. But if a player's attack fails and the defender counters, no need to tell us as the army marches across the map that the player cannot defend it. We probably know that, but we still want to see the stomping and enjoy what little tension there is. We don't care if you're psychic and correctly saw the ending of the game. We don't really care if you can predict when the GG will happen.
I personally just feel that too many casters care WAY too much about predicting what will happen instead of just letting the viewers know what may happen and letting us watch it unfold.
TotalBiscuit just does not belong in the SC2 community.
He saw it as a burgeoning new business venture and forced himself onto the scene due to money rather than having the actual game striking his interest.
I think that is why a lot of people see through his charade and see him for what he really is, a money grubber. He's just so fake and irritating, and sees all the haters as just trolls, which is horrible because it only fuels his nonsensical internet personality.
TB is just bad for the SC2 community.
I'd rather have someone who's good at the game commentate than him, I don't give a shit what format they choose, I want someone who knows what they are talking about.
Totalbiscuit telling someone else "No, you're casting wrong, you should be more like me" is just the funniest thing in the world.
Idra doesn't scream and shout, and you know what? that's just fine. I get that TB built up his fanbase on WoW players, who no one in the world could possibly have a good thing to say about, but SC2 players in general are not satisfied with "he's excited. and he's SO BRITISH! NOW I'M EXCITED TOO!!! YEAHHHH!"
We care about what's going on in the game, and we'll create our own excitement, thanks. I have never heard anyone cast as insightful as Idra. The guy calls a game down to perfection 10 minutes before it ends, with the exact strategy, what players are going to do, what will happen, and who will win. He does this correctly 9 out of 10 times, too. And you know why that's a good style? Because it gives a whole lot of context. You aren't seeing this game from your own personal point of view anymore, but you're seeing it from the pro's point of view. Idra tells you what a pro sees in that situation.
Totalbiscuit is one of the worst SC2 casters in my opinion, and the hilarity of him having the nerve to criticize Idra this extensively screams, to me anyway, that he's extremely jealous. Then again, after some of TB's statements, I've always felt his entire casting career has been nothing more than cashgrab.
I don't see how anyone could disagree with the the need for a play-by-play coupled with a more analytical co-caster, I just don't understand Oo That's how every sport is commentated, I would never watch for example soccer wc if it had no play-by-play. If the focus was on the strategy, yeah i'd learn more about soccer, but that's not why im watching, I watch it for the entertainment. (Insert any competetive sport/game in place of soccer)
The analytical co-caster is ofcourse also needed, especially for situations that the play-by play doesn't understand, and to bring discussion to the cast when the game is moving slow. They should also jump in when the play-by-play is misinterpeting a situation, because nothing ruins the experience more for me then being told something that even I, a guy who hasn't played since january, can see is totally wrong.
You guys seem to think that the only people who watch starcraft are try-hard master league players but that just isn't the case! And btw isn't it contradictory? You say you want the analytical casts and not this "noob friendly" stuff, and yet you can't seem to analyze the game yourselves? The casting is there to bring excitment and to give a casual viewer a basic understanding of what's going on and why. It's not some inside the game replay analysis for you to learn from.
I haven't watched the idra commentaries and im sure he'd make a decent analytical caster, but all the hate agains TB is sickening... Granted I didn't like his style when i first heard him, but i grew to like him during, was it reddit invitational? I don't remember, some tournament where he casted a full day, and after that day when i listened to the more analytical casters do solo casts, it was just slow and boring.
Also look at Tastosis, they do exacty this, Tasteless as the play by play and Artosis as the analyst and they seem to be the most popular duo atm. Well i've rambled on long enough, don't even know if i make any sense since i've just been writing without thinking much about how to get my point across...
On May 13 2011 20:47 Parnass wrote: Just to back up TBs point.
My Roommate does not play games a lot, if at all. he has SOME rts knowledge from LANs way back when, but his knowledge of sc2 is very limited.yet he LOVES watching sc2 especially when cast by play by play casters like tb. he enjoys the analytical part as well, but for him husky and tb are the far more enjoyable casters to watch. He likes watching me play as well and i always explain to him what im doing.
my point is: the tb bashing here is completely immature and unwarranted. this elitist attitude is actually hampering sc2s progression as an esport. soccer is watched by millions even if they dont play at all or are only very casual players. this is also because of the commentary provided by play by play commentators. tbs criticism is completely legitimate and even though i dont watch him that often because i prefer day 9 and other more analytical casters huskys and tbs popularity on youtube should be evidence enough that these casters do WONDERS for the advancement of sc2 as an esport.
I think you are completely correct. I for one never played BW, i only recently picked up SC2. And at first i just played it on occasion, but it was when i found huskys, hd's and psy's channels on youtube and started watching them cast that i got more and more into this game. Their casting made it really fun, and now i'm pretty much an addict, watching everything i can get my hands on, from VODs to streams. And the more people like me, who pay to watch the GSL and NASL, add more viewers on streams to get more commercials, the better for the sc2 scene, right? More money = more esports.
On May 13 2011 20:43 JitnikoVi wrote: i was never too fond of totalbiscuit, he comes off as rude and arrogant in his casts, ive noticed this many times, and its the sole reason i dont like watching him
anyone else get that vibe?
Nope ... he certainly isnt as rude and arrogant as iNcontrol, IdrA and Artosis in their non-commentating podcasts. You must not have watched any casts of TotalBiscuit at all, because you accuse him of being rude and arrogant in his casts. Any "harsh words" are only ever written in posts or said in interviews but NEVER in an actual cast or show and most of the time they are quite true. All that is needed is for the fanboys - IdrAs in this case - to take a deep breath and analyze what has really been said and not what they think has been said.
IdrA is bad as a "primary commentator", but great as an "assistant analytical commentator" ... The primary (play-by-play) commentator carries you through the game and is only assisted by the analyst. Sadly IdrA's droning monotone voice tends to turn off any excitement level whenever he speaks. That is sad but true, but it could be changed. Exciting commentary is NEEDED to make the casts more appealing to non-players / casuals and ultimately to succeed as an eSport. Arrogant people who deny this are the real baddies when it comes to the growth of professional SC2.
TotalBiscuit also admitted his own shortcomings in the lack of an analysis for casts ... remedied by adding d'Apollo for season 2 of the IPL ... if they are chosen to do these casts. IdrA could try and work on his manner of speaking if he thinks about casting more often in the future (and that could be the next step after he is done with his professional gaming career). I think that is all that TB wanted to say.
I personally prefer an analytical caster to get the brain thinking. Artosis is both analytical and play-by-play which is why he's one of the best casters; he appeals to everyone. I also prefer IdrA's analysis as opposed to TB yelling in my face about something which I can see with my own eyes.
Where are all these "casual" viewers that everyone's talking about? And why are they being treated like magpies, only attracted to shiny objects. If I were just getting in to the SC2 scene, I would like to be educated, rather than alienated and left out.
On May 13 2011 21:09 HoldenR wrote: Totalbiscuit telling someone else "No, you're casting wrong, you should be more like me" is just the funniest thing in the world.
Totalbiscuit is one of the worst SC2 casters in my opinion, and the hilarity of him having the nerve to criticize Idra this extensively screams, to me anyway, that he's extremely jealous. Then again, after some of TB's statements, I've always felt his entire casting career has been nothing more than cashgrab.
Weird how people like Day9 DJWheat and chill have said publically that TB is one of the best casters out there ....
Oh wonderful, 28 pages of nonsense, mostly by people who didn't actually read the post.
I stand by everything I said and would like to add now that he is also unprofessional and biased, based on his performance on NASL. I would agree with Complexity gaming's statement on the matter. It is not a caster's place to shit on a player over personal disagreements on air, that makes you a rank amateur.
Do you see me shitting on IdrA during casts regardless of the nonsense he has said about me in public? No.
No apologies will be made because none are required and I'm not going anywhere.
i think hes doing a good job, idra at least knows the game in and out before it is about to happen...gretorp kinda just makes missed called and fumbles over whats happening
On May 13 2011 21:09 HoldenR wrote: Totalbiscuit telling someone else "No, you're casting wrong, you should be more like me" is just the funniest thing in the world.
Totalbiscuit is one of the worst SC2 casters in my opinion, and the hilarity of him having the nerve to criticize Idra this extensively screams, to me anyway, that he's extremely jealous. Then again, after some of TB's statements, I've always felt his entire casting career has been nothing more than cashgrab.
Weird how people like Day9 DJWheat and chill have said publically that TB is one of the best casters out there ....
weird how some people have their own opinions that aren't influenced by people who are not directly linked to the topic
On May 13 2011 21:09 HoldenR wrote: Totalbiscuit telling someone else "No, you're casting wrong, you should be more like me" is just the funniest thing in the world.
Totalbiscuit is one of the worst SC2 casters in my opinion, and the hilarity of him having the nerve to criticize Idra this extensively screams, to me anyway, that he's extremely jealous. Then again, after some of TB's statements, I've always felt his entire casting career has been nothing more than cashgrab.
Weird how people like Day9 DJWheat and chill have said publically that TB is one of the best casters out there ....
I get the sense they are just being polite. It's a way for them to get points with him and make themselves look good for saying such things.
I also agree with his point, Idra doesn't make a game exciting, it isn't his job either.
I tend to judge a caster by not watching the video. If I can't tell how the game is going without the video it is a bad cast. An analytical can "show" the game very well, if done well and not going off on long tangents.
edit, I even "watch" a lot of sc2 while being in game playing a custom map. Not being able to tell how things are going then means I switch to something else. It shows how great day9 daily is for example. You don't have to watch the video, it is still good. It is better with video, but not needed.
On May 13 2011 21:09 HoldenR wrote: Totalbiscuit telling someone else "No, you're casting wrong, you should be more like me" is just the funniest thing in the world.
Totalbiscuit is one of the worst SC2 casters in my opinion, and the hilarity of him having the nerve to criticize Idra this extensively screams, to me anyway, that he's extremely jealous. Then again, after some of TB's statements, I've always felt his entire casting career has been nothing more than cashgrab.
Weird how people like Day9 DJWheat and chill have said publically that TB is one of the best casters out there ....
I get the sense they are just being polite. It's a way for them to get points with him and make themselves look good for saying such things.
Really? Really? Don't be ridiculous. So Day and wheat NEED to make themselves look good?? Sigh ....
I actually learned plenty from IdrA's analytical breakdown during his casts >.>
He's not as enthusiastic and engaging as TotalBiscuit, but IdrA is far more knowledgeable and can actually explain in greater detail the understanding of a pro-gamer vs. pro-gamer match, because he himself is a top pro-gamer.
A commentator having that ability is fantastic, in my opinion. Granted, I can see how different people may want different things from a caster, but that's something I specifically value. But pair IdrA up with someone who has insane personality (like iNcontroL), and you're set.
That being said, how many times has IdrA casted matches compared to actual commentators? IdrA's just doing this as a guest caster. I think it's a little odd to point out someone sucks at something when they have very little experience doing it- especially when they're far more popular doing the thing they actually do.
EDIT: Lost some respect for TB after reading this.
IdrA: calm, analytical, very good at explaining whats going on and not afraid to give his opinion on something wether it be good or bad.
Totalbiscuit: constantly shouting nonsense, very low level knowledge of the game, not qualified to give opinions on most games.
I must be missing something. It's not my intention to flame but Totalbiscuits commentating has put me off watching so many games I wanted to see in IPL and other tournaments because I cannot stand his constant shouting and his often wrong analysis.
At least with a guy like HD his knowledge might not be top notch but hes not shouting all the time shoving himself down your throat.
Someone like Totalbiscuit ruins games for a lot of viewers, and would be best suited sticking to casting on youtube where people can choose to watch or not, instead of major tournaments.
IdrA isn't out to become a good caster. He provides his expert opinion. I'd rather have someone who is quiet and "stumbles on his words" but knows what he is talking about then, someone who is loud, obnoxious and doesn't have a clue how to cast SC2, but has become famous for his casting because he screams alot and because he has a good caster voice. Sorry, TotalBiscuit.
I don't understand why you people [=idra haters] need some random fella to yell some useless bull loudly for you to get excited. It annoys the hell out of me, to be honest. I'd rather have someone who knows EXACTLY what's going on, like idra, to just explain things to me that I myself cannot instantly see. That's what makes him the best caster I've heard so far.
Funny how TB's stream gets more viewers than most pro players, he must be doing something right ... all the idra fan boys need to stop defending as Idra wasn't attacked in the first place ...
I wasn't defending Idra, I was "attacking" what Total Biscuit said so to speak.
Reputable leagues and broadcasters also hire casters who are professionally trained to speak.
No. News channels and daytime talk shows hire people who are professionally trained to speak, leagues hire commentators who know how to speak and also know what the fuck they are talking about. You can be pretty bad at speaking but have great insight and get away with it, you can't have brilliant oratory skills and no understanding of the game and get away with it.
TB's methods are very similar to djWheat's. I don't see how you set them apart like you did; TB simply has to focus more on the game because he often casts alone. That's the key. He casts alone most of the time, so he has to talk about the game because he can't really talk about strategy. If he had another human being to talk to like djWheat almost always does, they would fulfill a very similar role.
If you want to equate djWheat's casting to TB's then there's not much I can say in rebuttal. djWheat's excellent knowledge of the scene and reasonable understanding of the game put him leagues ahead of TB.
Korean example says otherwise. To grow a scene you need someone to entertain, not to educate them to the level of a pro player. Korean commentators build excitement and create entertainment. They talk about in depth strategy, but it is not their main focus.
This is moronic. Who do you think the Korean casters are more akin to? Tasteless and Artosis or Total Biscuit?
so you find enthusiasm stupid and insulting
I find feigned enthusiasm stupid.
Wrong, if you want to make the scene grow, you need to make the casting entertaining. Many of the people who follow TB won't ever follow Day9, Artosis or any "non-play by play casters". Try to "educate" them and they will leave, becaue they don't care - many don't even play the game.
Players must be educated. Spectators must be entertained. That's two completely different types of audience - and even some players watch the matches for fun, not to learn something. As many people said, you follow Day9 to get better at the game, NOT to relax and enjoy the show. In other words, you only follow professionnal players who cast if you're already playing Starcraft 2. On the other hand, you can certainly follow professional casters even if you don't care about being in master league.
Yeah I'm sure the casual observer who doesn't play the game, has no interest in learning any of the strategy and depth to it or follow the players and meta game are going to be important. I'm sure those spectators are going to be around a year or two from now, they'll be the ones buying Team shirts, SC2 merchandise and the sponsors products. No, of course they won't, they'll pass up SC2 as soon as the next E Sport title comes along or lose interest in E Sports entirely because those kinds of viewers have nothing invested in it.
TB does not develop anyone's knowledge of the game and does not appeal to higher level players and spectators and because of it he will ultimately be a stagnant force in the development of the scene.
Although it is pretty obvious TB isn't going after idra in general, there is one thing that he says that really bothers me. I hate it when people get on casters for saying a game is over or not close. I'm not looking to be lied to I don't tune into 10-0 baseball games and think if the announcer is enthusiastic enough it will still be interesting.
other then that most of what he says is true, although I don't think there are that many people who don't know what a color man is.
On May 13 2011 21:09 HoldenR wrote: Totalbiscuit telling someone else "No, you're casting wrong, you should be more like me" is just the funniest thing in the world.
Totalbiscuit is one of the worst SC2 casters in my opinion, and the hilarity of him having the nerve to criticize Idra this extensively screams, to me anyway, that he's extremely jealous. Then again, after some of TB's statements, I've always felt his entire casting career has been nothing more than cashgrab.
Dude, he never said that IdrA should more like him, he just said that IdrA shouldn't be the primary commentator.Different of Artosis, he doesn't have the same entusiasm and intoning while he talks. BUT if IdrA take the role of secondary commentator doing some analytical commentary from time to time during the cast anda iding the primary commentator woul be the ideal scenario.
On May 13 2011 21:09 HoldenR wrote: Totalbiscuit telling someone else "No, you're casting wrong, you should be more like me" is just the funniest thing in the world.
Totalbiscuit is one of the worst SC2 casters in my opinion, and the hilarity of him having the nerve to criticize Idra this extensively screams, to me anyway, that he's extremely jealous. Then again, after some of TB's statements, I've always felt his entire casting career has been nothing more than cashgrab.
Weird how people like Day9 DJWheat and chill have said publically that TB is one of the best casters out there ....
I get the sense they are just being polite. It's a way for them to get points with him and make themselves look good for saying such things.
Really? Really? Don't be ridiculous. So Day and wheat NEED to make themselves look good?? Sigh ....
Of course. Most of the SC2 community puts on a very well mannered image in any public broadcast because the entire SC2 community has that public image of "being mannered". Which isn't the worst thing ever, but you won't hear any casters really putting each other down.
That said, I don't know what day9/chill/wheat's actual opinions of the guy are. Maybe they do like him, they all seem like friendly enough people and like they get along with just about anyone. However, if they disliked him, they could certainly never voice that dislike. It would be a horrible idea for their public image, and probably, for that of SC2's community as a whole.
On May 13 2011 16:11 C.W. wrote: Who is totalbiscuit?
A caster with a great voice but who dont know the game enough to bring something interesting in it. Pretty much the opposite of Idra. I am master Player and I think Idra is one of the very best caster.
The part where is talking about why we turn on VOD is wrong I think.
Majority of people watch vod because they are too lasy to watch a replay (need to turn on sc, need to use your mouse, need to find replay). While watching a VOD, you can eat, you can sit on your coach, you dont have running after replays etc.
There is no point to "non analytique cast". The casual argument is not a real argument. If you know what is going on in the game, you are already excited. Many casters seems to "simulate" excitement. The player who watching the vod just telling himself "ok the caster want to make this exciting, he dont know the game enough to see this attaque will be defented easely" etc.
The first thing who need a caster = know the game, be a good player, be a good analyst. Second thing = the "plaguuuu" factor = good voice, good "gameteller" capacity.
On May 13 2011 21:17 ayekuf wrote: IdrA: calm, analytical, very good at explaining whats going on and not afraid to give his opinion on something wether it be good or bad.
Totalbiscuit: constantly shouting nonsense, very low level knowledge of the game, not qualified to give opinions on most games.
I must be missing something. It's not my intention to flame but Totalbiscuits commentating has put me off watching so many games I wanted to see in IPL and other tournaments because I cannot stand his constant shouting and his often wrong analysis.
At least with a guy like HD his knowledge might not be top notch but hes not shouting all the time shoving himself down your throat.
Someone like Totalbiscuit ruins games for a lot of viewers, and would be best suited sticking to casting on youtube where people can choose to watch or not, instead of major tournaments.
Someone like Totalbiscuit also gets people interested in games with his enthusiasm, especially with people who're not that much into the whole ESPORTS thing already seemed to be quite intrigueded by his style.
In the end it probably comes down to personal taste, while I love TB casting I myself turned off several streams already because djWheat was casting and every time somebody goes on about "Oh he's so great", "he's so awesome" I am feeling alone and start wondering: "What the fuck?"
A point that many seem to miss tho is that TB didn't go "Oh, it's IdrA castin, let's post something to bash him!" it's actually a response to that gosu.com article and everything he points out there makes perfect sense (at least to me) without offending anyone (imho.).
Hardcore players will not learn anything from this. Casual players more often than not, don't WANT to learn anything from this.
WHAAAT? not learn anything from this? not learn anything from the best US Zerg with the best understanding of the game out there? This clearly shows that Total biscuit has no idea what he is talking about. This is not fucking wow we are talking about where everybody knows what everybody is doing and just oogles and some good execution.The Metagame changes constantly and it changes first at the top and when it´s showen in tournaments then it becomes popular on the ladder. This is why It is so great to have someone casting who has such a great insight.
You want to appeal to a more casual audience ? that´s fine i don´t mind. Chill,DJwheat and many others don´t have the knowledge of an idra or Artosis but they know their basics. I´m sorry but when casters make statements that make even a gold level player face palm you're basically leaving out your core fan base. Those are the people who will pay for a stream those are the people who will buy merchandise those are the people who will come out to live events.Not some guy who just happened to click on a youtube video.Those guys are only fans of the caster and only make the caster money.
P.S.I´m a little scared of Chill because i used the word metagame 0.ô
I would agree in terms of a "sportscaster" he could use voice work. But he is a great analyst Sort of the boomer esiason or phil simms role for any football followers, they just have much more voice projection and general speaking skills coming from being a leader of a team as opposed to a gamer.
On May 13 2011 21:09 HoldenR wrote: Totalbiscuit telling someone else "No, you're casting wrong, you should be more like me" is just the funniest thing in the world.
Totalbiscuit is one of the worst SC2 casters in my opinion, and the hilarity of him having the nerve to criticize Idra this extensively screams, to me anyway, that he's extremely jealous. Then again, after some of TB's statements, I've always felt his entire casting career has been nothing more than cashgrab.
Weird how people like Day9 DJWheat and chill have said publically that TB is one of the best casters out there ....
I get the sense they are just being polite. It's a way for them to get points with him and make themselves look good for saying such things.
Really? Really? Don't be ridiculous. So Day and wheat NEED to make themselves look good?? Sigh ....
Of course. Most of the SC2 community puts on a very well mannered image in any public broadcast because the entire SC2 community has that public image of "being mannered". Which isn't the worst thing ever, but you won't hear any casters really putting each other down.
That said, I don't know what day9/chill/wheat's actual opinions of the guy are. Maybe they do like him, they all seem like friendly enough people and like they get along with just about anyone. However, if they disliked him, they could certainly never voice that dislike. It would be a horrible idea for their public image, and probably, for that of SC2's community as a whole.
It was said by Chill on an episode of weapon of choice and Wheat totally agreed with him. I think it was episode 12 or 13.
Hardcore players will not learn anything from this. Casual players more often than not, don't WANT to learn anything from this.
WHAAAT? not learn anything from this? not learn anything from the best US Zerg with the best understanding of the game out there? This clearly shows that Total biscuit has no idea what he is talking about. This is not fucking wow we are talking about where everybody knows what everybody is doing and just oogles and some good execution.The Metagame changes constantly and it changes first at the top and when it´s showen in tournaments then it becomes popular on the ladder. This is why It is so great to have someone casting who has such a great insight.
You want to appeal to a more casual audience ? that´s fine i don´t mind. Chill,DJwheat and many others don´t have the knowledge of an idra or Artosis but they know their basics. I´m sorry but when casters make statements that make even a gold level player face palm you're basically leaving out your core fan base. Those are the people who will pay for a stream those are the people who will buy merchandise those are the people who will come out to live events.Not some guy who just happened to click on a youtube video.Those guys are only fans of the caster and only make the caster money.
P.S.I´m a little scared of Chill because i used the word metagame 0.ô
It's fairly obvious that you did not read the actual article, as is the case with many of the others frothing at the mouth in this thread. If all you want to do is cherry-pick contextless phrases and make assumptions about what they mean, then don't expect any good discussion to happen
After 30 pages of no devellopment or any real discussion. Largely due to the refusal of the gross of participants to actually read the article and the article it was written in reponse to I am locking this gem for posterity to admire in it's entirety.
EPT![[image loading]](http://pcmedia.gamespy.com/pc/image/article/883/883316/backburner_1214010595.jpg)
So I actually think TB's rant was a little bizarre in that respect, but according to his video he seemed to be explaining the difference between the two casting roles and his pet peeve.
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/h5oJh.jpg)
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