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Nice read from TB.
I think IPL would do well to have teams casting. I absolutely loved TBs casting, the hype was unbelievable (Ladies and gentlemen, prepare for violence and bloodshed! etc). BUT... the obs control from him (and Wheat...and Cats Pajamas) was definitely lacking. There is almost nothing more frustrating then seeing the battle commencing or a drop touching down on the minimap while the caster is talking about upgrades and looking at a main...
Ideally, the play-by-play guys could be paired with a colour commentary guy who could run the obs. If that can't/won't happen, I like TB enough to forgive the bits of action that he misses.
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Few days ago Naniwa was casting with vampire lady dailymotion cup i believe and i as a true Nani fanboi was super excited. I thought that he was the best caster ever and every time he said anything i got nerd chills just like those from Tastetosis, for me he was the best caster ever !
On the other hand from a professional point of view he was probably horrible because he lacked certain casting skills but i didnt care because i was his fanboi and was super excited and will be again if he casts more.
I think thats the point of this thread, TB is pointing out that professional point of view whats wrong with Idras casting and we all know what kind of fans Idra has, so ofc they will only flame TB for it.
U people need to come down, TB isnt trolling or bming Idra, hes just pointing out what he lacks to become a professional caster, if ur a true fan u will accept that, or not care because u love Idra anyway exactly how he is. If ur a troll zerg fanboi that watches Destinys stream for 10h a day u will probably flame TB.
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On May 13 2011 17:43 Wolf wrote:
Wow, TB makes some great points. He's not even bashing. The comments in this thread make my head hurt.
Same for me.
TB basically says: "IdrA is not an experienced caster but he has excellent game knowledge, so he should be paired with an experienced play-by-play caster so the casts provide insight _and_ excitement and is entertaining for everyone".
I don't see how anyone except could disagree with that. I guess there are really some hardcore-purists that are unable to relax and enjoy something just for the sake of entertainment. Makes me sad 
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On May 13 2011 18:14 aidnai wrote:
Nice read from TB.
I think IPL would do well to have teams casting. I absolutely loved TBs casting, the hype was unbelievable (Ladies and gentlemen, prepare for violence and bloodshed! etc). BUT... the obs control from him (and Wheat...and Cats Pajamas) was definitely lacking. There is almost nothing more frustrating then seeing the battle commencing or a drop touching down on the minimap while the caster is talking about upgrades and looking at a main...
Ideally, the play-by-play guys could be paired with a colour commentary guy who could run the obs. If that can't/won't happen, I like TB enough to forgive the bits of action that he misses.
IIRC IPL planned to have casting duos in the next season, season 1 was just to get everything set up and try things out, which is why there was only one caster.
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Totalbiscuit's entire argument is flawed because it presumes that the skills which make someone a good sports commentator are also the skills which make someone a good SC2 commentator.
There is a reason why people who actually understand the game like Artosis, Tasteless, and Day9 are the commentators most beloved by the community. Once you dedicate even just a small mote of time to trying to understand SC2, play by play commentary suddenly becomes both stagnant and dull. Thing is, if you watch a replay commented by Day9, it is certainly not to relax and enjoy a Starcraft 2-related distraction.
Listening to Day9 is training. Listening to Totalbiscuit is having fun.
I'm high diamond and I have a corresponding understanding of the game. TB is the only caster I follow on a regular basis, because I watch replays to be entertained. If you consider casting as a way to improve your play, you will follow Day9 and a couple of others. But if you watch replays to have a good time, what TB says is not only true, it's a no-brainer. If you want to keep people entertained, don't tell them the game is already over.
Maybe you want to learn something when you watch replay, in that case go Day9, Artosis, or whoever you like. Just don't assume that everyone does - as TB says, many of the people who follow him don't even have the game.
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I really enjoyed Lee and idra casting the GSL, with som practise that would have been a great combo. PbP with colour.
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I don't know why this was written but he can really stand behind it means it must be valuable in ways. And it was. If you take away IdrA and just focus on the analysis of casting it was incredibly insightful and accurate. Accurate up to the extent that one can only speak in general terms, different people like different things.
What I would want to repeat from the article is the role prediction plays. When MLG comes around watch for it, Day9 is one of the only casters who is actively manipulating this information. Even when he knows it is likely to go a certain way he will keep just enough information behind not to make this clear and allow the situation to unfold in an exciting manner. I feel this is one of the main points that was getting put across. One that is enlightning to accept and look out for in future casts.
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Completely (and respectfully) disagree with TB.
But my first reaction to this article is: are you KIDDING me?!?! So when a game is obviously over, TB is stating (undeniably), that the commentator should act like its not. As a viewer, I would get SO pissed if I knew that this "expert", this person who is supposed to know something about the game and therefore is commentating on this, is bullshitting me and telling me LIES. TB literally states that its the commentator's job to make the 'gg' the climax, and therefore should keep excitement up until that point... by acting like the game is still competitive.
TB makes an argument here that relies on pretty rhetoric without base and arguments without substance. He makes a pretty argument that different viewers watch the games for different reasons, and lists a few. Yet at the same exact time, he assumes that he knows WHAT everyone wants. And not only do I think he is wrong in assuming that, I disagree with WHAT he assumes.
Firstly, let's use an analogy. Imagine a basketball, football, whatever sport game; let's pick football for the sake of it. The score is 42-3 and there are 2 minutes left on the clock. Do you REALLY want some commentator to be saying "the other team has a chance..."... No. Personally, that's just ridiculous, and I think a lot of people would agree here.
My personal opinion is this. Commentators are not simply people who "hype" up the audience and make it exciting until the final moments of the game. Those people are commonly called "cheerleaders". Commentators have a much, much larger role, and a very symbolic one at that. They are, to the audience, the figureheads, the link between the audience and the sport. In a bad analogy, they would be the bridge that separates the professional world, and our computer screens and TV sets. I don't want this bridge to be a rickety, untrustworthy bridge through which I get all my information. I want this bridge to be solid, truthful, honest, straight, and trustworthy, so that I KNOW I'm getting the truth, and so that I hope I can learn a bit about the game, even if I don't play it. That's another place I disagree with TB. Everyone who watches the game, regardless of whether they own the game or know how to play it or not... they want to know how its played. Do you watch football to say "oh yay a flying ball! cool!"? Even new people watch football and try and learn how the rules are played, and maybe try to learn the complex strategies behind the sport. Why do you think all these parents and kids sit at home and yell at their TV's, "they should have done this move! or that move!" when they clearly know very little about what's actually going on? It's human nature. We want to know what's going on. That's one of the reasons we listen to these live casts instead of just watching the replay in silence.
Finally, I disagree about one last thing. TB said something along the lines that "diamond/master players will know when the game is over." This is true, yet it hardly helps TB's point in any way. There are often 20-40 minutes for a game, and TB is talking about the last few minutes. And I can promise you this: not even diamond players will always know what's going on. Do you know why? Because we don't care enough. We don't follow both bases and keep the unit compositions and build orders in our head, and keep track of production tabs. We don't follow all the upgrades and see when tech is rising or whatever. Etc. What I'm trying to say is, we don't watch everything as viewers. Some do, some don't. Even for lower-level gamers (gold/silver/bronze), though they might not be as good at the game, they still have a strong sense of the game and want the commentators, who have been following all the game's stats closely, to fill them in and keep them updated with truthful news.
So, TB, I respectfully state my view that some of your arguments are without merit here. And I'm sure you had some reason, but to me, your "IdrA is a bad caster" is clearly an attempt to draw attention and therefore is in really poor taste. As a commentator, you should be ashamed of yourself for speaking like that about a fellow commentator, even if the points you make are true, e.g. IdrA is not a very good/exciting speaker.
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He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
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Not doing play-by-play means you can not build up excitement and emotion? Analysis mid-game turn off the casual viewer?
Hey TotalBiscuit. Have you ever herd of this guy called Artosis? I guess not.
EDIT: Keone man, you deserve a medal. Pretty much everything you said has better arguements then TBs post.
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On May 13 2011 18:18 Telenil wrote:Show nested quote +Totalbiscuit's entire argument is flawed because it presumes that the skills which make someone a good sports commentator are also the skills which make someone a good SC2 commentator.
There is a reason why people who actually understand the game like Artosis, Tasteless, and Day9 are the commentators most beloved by the community. Once you dedicate even just a small mote of time to trying to understand SC2, play by play commentary suddenly becomes both stagnant and dull. Thing is, if you watch a replay commented by Day9, it is certainly not to relax and enjoy a Starcraft 2-related distraction. Listening to Day9 is training. Listening to Totalbiscuit is having fun. If you consider casting as a way to improve your play, you will follow Day9 and a couple of others. But if you watch replays to have a good time, what TB says is not only true, it's a no-brainer. If you want to keep people entertained, don't tell them the game is already over. Maybe you want to learn something when you watch replay, in that case go Day9, Artosis, or whoever you like. Just don't assume that everyone does - as TB says, many of the people who follow him don't even have the game.
I don't think there is anything wrong with having casters that appeal to different kind of people. Although when watching a tournament like GSL I prefer having casters with more knowledge than TB but when it come to smaller tournaments or even larger with players I don't really care for I often prefer TB since he brings an element of entertainment to something that I wouldn't watch otherwise. It's sort of watching a funday monday, you don't do it for the quality of game play.
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Of the listed commentators in the IPL, there was 1 colour commentator (Painuser) and 4 play-by-play commentators (HD, DJWheat, Catspyjamas and myself).
great read but i dont really know about know about this part... no offence the only commentator in sc2 who fits this description is jason lee and maybe some day totalbiscuit if jason took him under his wing peace
Play-by-play announcers are the primary speakers, valued for their articulateness and ability to describe the events of an often fast-moving contest.
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His analytical abilites are so good he can be excused from putting in passion and emotion imo, TB has it right in most parts but i feel that most of it is excusable.
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On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote:
He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
The thing is, TB is horrible and what makes it worse is that TB never listens to the advice of other people about his own casting.
So why the hell would anybody care what TB thinks other casters should do to be better?
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i love idra's casting but what TB says is true.. I mean idra will flat out say "ok, it's over this guy has no chance" and the game will go on for 10 minutes..
But on the other hand he sees 1 barrack, 1 refinery and 15 scvs and call out battlecruisers at 15 mark and it happens lolol
I think beside artosis no one is near idra in terms of calling out strats and reading the game, the only thing he lacks his when to give emotion to the casting. If he sees a game breaking move by someone he will say it but he will say it like he's going to the bathroom lolol
anyways i love his casting!
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I don't think that NASL has the casual viewership he is referencing when he points out that many viewers of starcraft don't play and hence don't want to learn, they just want excitement. I would dispute that they don't want to learn though. As if there aren't millions of sports nerds totally incapable of playing the game, but ravenous for the most technical knowledge they can get so they can disect and understand the game at the highest level possible.
I think that viewership watches Husky/HD et al on youtube VODs. That's why they get many times more unique views than NASL has live watchers. They are less likely to be tuning in at primetime every day to the early rounds of a tournament. I don't think they are the 13k watching NASL at present, and certainly not the ones paying for it.
That could be a problem in itself, but I think for the demographic NASL attracts at present, Idra is a great choice.
But even sidestepping that, I see no problem in having an enthusiastic colour play by play guy to pair with Idra's analytical punditry, other than that NASL don't have that commentator. Idra does what he does very well, the problem is that his co casters can't fulfill an equally specialized complimentary role. Gretorp in particular isn't an effective analytical commentator, and he lacks the requisite charisma to perform in other roles. I hardly think Idra as a guest commentator is a chief problem.
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On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote:
He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
He's pointing out what he assumes are faults in regards to him casting games, which a lot of people don't agree with. I personally don't like the "hype man" style of casting and like the more analytical style of casting, and I'm not some diamond/masters player that TB would assume I am.
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On May 13 2011 18:13 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 17:17 C.W. wrote:
So let me get this straight.
Some e-sports-scene caster with a great voice, who is a newbie in starcraft2 gives advice in casting to a guy who is playing this game(s) essentially since the beginning and on a professional level; who was invited to guest-cast/moderate high level starcraft games because said invitee was not... euphoric enough for the casters taste?
Since I did look Totalbiscuit up on youtube (totally didn't know who that guy was) I got the impression of a god-given moderation voice, but it also appeared to me that he got some personal issues after I saw him cast this very post that OP quoted.
(That cast by the way was technically horrific and I felt a bit embarassed for totalbiscuit).
On a productive note I want to add that Idra is full time pro.
No one can expect some veteran casting from him since he has no experience whatsoever doing it.
Idra however has great game insight and knows his strategies which is why I thought NASL invited him for.
Also I do not regard Totalbiscuits post as "bashing" or "smacking" or whatsoever - I regard his tips to be pure waste (Idra does not need improving his casting since he is not a caster) and guess that this was just some deed to get some more attention.
It was a response to a journal article in which IdrA was praised for his casting, when in fact he's not a caster. Please read the OP before hating.
When I read the OP nothing said it was a response.
I am very sorry that you read my post wrong.
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Different strokes for different folks. I have enough knowledge as a player to know when a game is over(except on some very rare occasions like rain vs inca or nestea vs sc), and I like it when I'm told whats what. Don't sugar coat things, tell me when 1 player is playing horrible or when they have no chance to come back, because that's exactly what I'm thinking when I watch it anyway
As stated though I'm very likely to be in the minority, so pandering to the "casual" may be the way to go. TB may be biased on this viewpoint though, since the vast majority of his own listeners are casual, so he has to appeal to a different audience than others. Idra appeals to the more 'hard core' players.
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On May 13 2011 18:21 johanngrunt wrote:
He's not saying Idra is horrible.
He's pointing out Idra's faults (of which there are a few) so hopefully Idra can learn from them.
Idra is not doing anything wrong, I DON'T want him to be a play-by-play caster, we have enough of those. Idra is amazing as a caster (and by far my favorite) because he has such a great game knowledge that I can learn a lot just from watching the games he casts.
The way he casts now is pretty much ideal for me atleast.
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I play SC2 at a platinum level; however, I am not in the least bit interested in deep analysis when watching NASL, TSL, GSL or ISL. I want to be entertained. If I wanted to train I'd just go play some more.
Again: I want to be entertained.
Idra is, for casuals like me, a horrible caster: his voice is dull, he doesn't show any emotion at all and sometimes doesn't even care about a game when it's obvious it's over. However, he would be absolutely fantastic as someone who gives post-game analysis.
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EPT
