EPTTotalbiscuit on IdrA's casting - Page 15
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
In the US alone can anyone think of one national league that isn't chock full of analysis. While one commentator in a duo will do play by play as important events unfold, BOTH commentators play a role in the analysis explaining why what happened jsut happened, why it was good or bad, what insight or observations the players had led them to the decisions they made and what kind of skill those decisions and their execution displays. Commentators give important snap shots of the state of the game at crucial times and explain where each player is and what they can or can't do to come back or clinch the win. While TotalBiscuit is somewhat right in that Idra lacks a lot of technical casting skills, it doesn't matter much because his analysis is so good. Meanwhile TotalBiscuits analysis is so glaring vacant to the game that he is an absolutely terrible caster. He isn't entertaining to anyone who knows what is going on, he actively keeps those who don't in the dark, he's just plain bad for the scene. | ||
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Dojous
United States36 Posts
INCEPTION | ||
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jarrydesque
584 Posts
It's worth noting that I got into watching streams and commentaries through Husky. I found him entertaining and knowledgeable. Then I outgrew him, seeking less screeching and more accurate knowledge. I think it is the natural path. Long story short, both types have their place in the promotion and growth of Starcraft. The screeching castes pull them in and then the knowledgeable casters grow their knowledge and involvement. I do think that it's up to the "play by play" casters to ensure that their knowledge is at least up to scratch though - It's pretty much insta-mute when I hear "HE IS BEING SNEAKY, HE IS GOING TO 4 GATE" when it very, very obviously is not a 4gate for example. I do find that extremely annoying. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
I don't mind either styles, the only thing that makes me sick is commentators who say "oh yeah this is pretty much over" prematurely. There are times where it is true, but some commentators call it early in some cases, then end up being wrong when a critical mistake is made by a player. | ||
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oursblanc
Canada1450 Posts
He must be doing something right. User was warned for this post | ||
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Slyce
United Kingdom173 Posts
I really don't like anything that is solo casted really. There are very few people who can both invoke great emotion and be really analytical (There are exceptions but that is not my point) I think that future events really need to get themselves sorted out and use a 2 person casting duo that balances well. One of each type described in TB's original monologue. I also think that what you like to watch depends on what you are looking for. I am a Master Terran and I love people getting really in depth so that I can learn new things. I do however have friends who are bronze and just wanna see stuff get nuked while someone shouts about it! Maybe Idra and TB should team up! And cast something together, I would pay to watch it! | ||
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Gurgl
Sweden308 Posts
I have watched a couple of games in IPL when Totalbiscuit casts and I have to admit that I mute, I just don´t like his castingstyle, infact he represents alot of what I hate in casters. He talks too much and tends to overhype stuff, he seems to lack knowledge of the game, to me it´s just alot of babbling and nothing interesting. I can imagine that Totalbiscuits castingstyle may appeal to people who are new to the game and if he can get new ppl to watch the game then thats great. I like SC2 casting duos who have a relaxed casting atmosphere like Tastosis in GSL, Demuslim + Apollo at the Dreamhack Stockholm invitational and Idra + Incontrol/Gretorp(Incontrol + Gretorp have grown on me aswell, they have improved alot) in NASL, for example. | ||
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Stimp
South Africa780 Posts
On May 13 2011 17:46 ketomai wrote: Why? =P. I disagree with which casting method he finds suitable for starcraft. I read it but disagree. The casting methods usually don't work on their own. They work together. Which is why TB is saying Idra should work with someone who does play by play while idra does analysis. So ketomai's point still stands. | ||
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RmoteCntrld
United States596 Posts
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x6Paramore
Canada130 Posts
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Looky
United States1608 Posts
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
I too, am firmly in the camp that TB is bringing up some very good points. Listen to IdrA, listen to TB, and realize that these are completely different styles. But as good as IdrA is, it's true that when IdrA just calls "it's a GG" when the game's hasn't ended yet, TB is totally right: the masters and diamonds amongst us see and agree with IdrA, but for the casuals and bronzies amongst us, the game's no longer interesting to watch anymore. I mean, IdrA called it, and who are we to doubt him? Might as well switch the channel right? That's a bad thing. When you take a look at IdrA's commentary on some of his old games, he's rapid fire, moves the screen at an extremely fast pace, and at times speaks so quickly that if you're not focused, he's simply too fast(reference to his Big Foot Networks games). He's incredibly intelligent and a person could learn eons of material from him, but I have to agree: he's the "smart" guy, not the color commentator guy. | ||
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Goibon
New Zealand8185 Posts
Idra's analysis is great. In my mind he's the best and part of that is because with him being such a great current player he has a level of credibility that other player/casters do not have. Not even Day9 or Artosis do. I've not seen these guys compete at the top level of SC2. Their BW accomplishments are worthlesss to me in analysing current play. They could be completely out of touch and i wouldn't neccessarily know. But Idra is there in the trenches, he gets it. But he's boring and lacks any emotion. He's said many times that he's in this for the competition. That plus his monotone casting makes me wonder if he actually gives a shit. Day and Artosis clearly give a shit. Look at the SC v Nestea series. Much like a hot crowd at a pro wrestling event, a caster who is so emotionally invested in a series adds so much to the drama. It was a great series, but i think it was made so much greater with Artosis being Artosis. Now if Idra could bottle a little Artosis passion, pour it into his dusty care cup and chug that shit down, i think we'd have a pretty imba caster on our hands. Until such a time, we've got a rather disinterested sounding guy who is super fucking smart. I love analysis too, the student in me demands that. But i completely agree with TB on this one. I really really hope Idra can improve. God it's a scary thought how great he could be. | ||
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AlgeriaT
Sweden2197 Posts
IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion. He is however, an analyst of exceptional skill and calibre, easily one of the best in the business. He should be lauded for this however the distinction must be made there. I dunno, that pretty much qualifies as "slamming" in my book. Not sure why he had to write that comment to begin with. Casting is hardly IdrA's day job, we should just be happy that he does it at all. (Note: I am not an IdrA fanboy in general) And this coming from the possibly most annoying caster of all time, a.k.a. the Pee Wee Herman of esports casting. Boo. | ||
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Swineflew
United States61 Posts
On May 13 2011 17:57 Stimp wrote: The casting methods usually don't work on their own. They work together. Which is why TB is saying Idra should work with someone who does play by play while idra does analysis. So ketomai's point still stands. I feel like they work for action based sports, I don't think they fit in strategy based games. That's a large part of my arguement, TB is saying that IdrA has a bad style of casting. I think that his casting is fine because it fits the style of the game. Again I'd agree with TB if this was football or soccer or another fast spaced sport, but imo strategy games, and even esports in general shouldn't be handled like actual sports. | ||
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Seide
United States831 Posts
On May 13 2011 18:01 Swineflew wrote: I feel like they work for action based sports, I don't think they fit in strategy based games. That's a large part of my arguement, TB is saying that IdrA has a bad style of casting. I think that his casting is fine because it fits the style of the game. Again I'd agree with TB if this was football or soccer or another fast spaced sport, but imo strategy games, and even esports in general shouldn't be handled like actual sports. On May 13 2011 17:56 oursblanc wrote: IdrA gets more viewers than anyone else in SC2. He must be doing something right. He isn't saying he is doing anything wrong. He is saying he excels in one element of casting, and can stand to benefit from being partnered with someone who excels in play by play. Do schools even teach reading comprehension anymore? It is like you people read the 1st few lines of what was written, and nothing further. Also not hard to get a lot of viewers when you are considered one of the top players in the world for your race. That alone will get you a huge amount of viewers, no matter what you do. | ||
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MurMiLLo
United States260 Posts
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CursedRich
United Kingdom737 Posts
He wasnt bashing Idra so put your knickers away before you twist them up. He was stating the truth because, love him or hate him TB has actually taken the time to refine his voice and is constantly improving his technique. Why, because he understands that there is a lot of technique and methodology to being a commentator. If you prefer the more technical guys fine but to say that the guy isnt good is missing the point. TB could be doing this on TV, Radio etc for many sports and has the skills required. Idra provides some very good insight into the game, and he is way better than INcontrol imo because everything he says doesnt revolve around him, but until youve heard him with a good play by play then dont knock this feedback. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
I agree to some extent to the point made by others that play by play doesn't really fit Starcraft 2 as well as other sports, since mistakes accumulate and evening out the score isn't possibly in many scenarios unless your opponent really mess up, while in a soccer game, being down by 4 goals is extremely hard, you can by brilliant play, without mistakes by your opponent, come back. What I didn't like personally in the post made by TotalBiscuit is where he said: "IdrA is not a good caster". I think, I wouldn't have any problem with it if he said he is not a great caster, and continued with the exact same argument. Many though, and I am one of them, do believe that Idra's lack of skill / experience as a caster, monotone voice and all, is offset enough by his brilliant analysis and exceptional understanding of the game so that he, overall, is quite okay. Even good. As a color commentator, for sure, but - that's being a caster too. It's not just the play by play commentaters that are "actual casters", in my view. And I feel that TotalBiscuit somewhat let it shine through that he thinks only "play-by-play" are "real casters". Which I disagree with. To compare to other casters, I think that Tastosis are in a class of their own. They actually make each other better, and together have great understanding of the game. When I watch Day[9] and DJWheat, I find that Day[9] alone is to me more entertaining. Husky clearly lacks the experience to understand what's important in the game, but is very entertaining to me. HD is a better player, and I feel that it's obvious compared to Husky, but he is also quite a step down from Artosis and Day[9] when it comes to game understanding. DoA and Moletrap, I don't feel have any real connection. They make each other worse than they are on their own, sadly enough. Kelly, I felt was quite good and entertaining - just sadly, her accent, made her hard to understand for me since english isn't my first language. I found her to be responsive and able to work with what the other person was saying combined with what was actually happening in the game. Which I miss when I watch DoA and Moletrap. Some make a distinction between those watching to be entertained, and those watching to learn from it. I feel that's the wrong way to look at it. I believe everyone is watching the games to be entertained, but those with a very good understanding of the game, build orders, etc, find their enjoyment ruined by the casters mistakes. I am nowhere near awesome, and I used to be worse, and when I was worse, what Husky & others that aren't good players said about strategies and what was happening sounded good to me. Now I am slightly better, and often cringe when they try talking about builds and who is behind or ahead, since I can see it's often clearly and obviously wrong. I have no doubt that those at the mid masters level and above, find many more mistakes in what casters say than I do, and is even less amused by play-by-play commentating that's clearly wrong. Don't get me wrong. I find myself enjoying the occasional crota, husky, hd, totalbiscuit casting. Just, some parts of what they say is often so clearly wrong. And, if you watch sports, I would disagree that the "GG" should be the highlight of the game. The whistle at 90 minutes in soccer isn't the highlight if one player scored a hat trick in the first half and a 4th goal at 64 minutes that killed the match. The highlight of the game should be what is actually the highlight. The color commentators job is to identify it, and draw attention to it, and the play-by-play commentators job is to ... not contradict it and try to keep it interesting when it clearly isn't. In Starcraft 2, build orders, positioning, expansions, money management, unit compositions, multi tasking, flanking, multi-pronged attacks, income, etc etc is all part of what decides the winner in the end. If someone goes 6-7-8-9 pool, fast gas, buildings scouted and cancelled, proxies, hidden expos, etc, that is really really important, and the consequences of those actions should be brought to immediate action, as well as possibilites of what the plan is. Where Tastosis is awesome, is that they know enough about the game to immediately catch on in the early game and draw mostly the right conclusions when they see someone do something. It's not nearly as entertaining when someone keeps talking about what's happening, and speculating and being clearly, clearly wrong (you see someone doing roaches and +1 range attack before lair, lair is started, and you say "I hope to see mutas" ... that's just ... weak). Anyway, too long, but ... I feel that TotalBiscuit had some good points, but he set himself up for some flames by the simple statement "is not a good". I am sure he thinks that is correct, but ... some people appreciate those qualities that Idra bring enough that to them, he is actually okay, or even good. And, to hype stuff regardless of whether or not it's worth hyping ... that's just, wrong. If it's over, it's over. Might as well talk about how well the person that is winning is doing, and why, instead of pretending it's still close. People that aren't good players, can still recognize bullshit and I doubt they are entertained by it that much. | ||
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