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On May 13 2011 17:25 Defrag wrote:
Seriously?
Idra's casting is absolutetly over the top. This is also the reason his, and Sheth's streams are two of the most popular streams on the scene - they give a good insight on the game, instead of just commenting current situation with.
Idra doesnt talk during his streams, and sheth and idra are popular because they are the only good zerg streamers, relax with the fervor there buddy.
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On May 13 2011 17:21 Acrofales wrote:
The OP is pretty terrible as it rips TB's post out of perspective.
I actually gave more info in my original post than TB did in his youtube video.
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On May 13 2011 16:15 Atlare wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote:
TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting. Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass.
I don't get how he can say anyone is a play-by-play commentator, though. No one in SC2 does that sort of commentary. I mean watch a baseball or hockey game, watch how a play-by-play commentator does it. They're called "play-by-play" for a reason. Someone like Artosis/Idra are as close to that as we have in the SC2 community, their knowledge of the game is ridiculous. Either one of them can discern what a player is doing by the most minute changes in their build... there is no other commentator that can do that to the same level they can.
Color commentary is far more rampant in the SC2 community, someone who will try more than anything else to be entertaining (the ironic part of that entire post is this basically epitomizes how TB casts. He clearly isn't going for the analytical view that only leaves the entertainment (color) commentary for him. Idra clearly isn't someone who is trying to be entertaining when he casts, he's trying to relate exactly what is going on in the match, what each player is doing and what they are doing wrong.
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Idra is just being himself. If he's not doing a good enough job they'll take him off the air. If they don't, he'll gradually improve from experience. That's really all there is to it.
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On May 13 2011 17:06 Swineflew wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 16:56 Vorlik wrote:
I don't understand why the OP made this thread here, it just stirs up more unnecessary drama. I would've rather you vented on the reddit thread then come here. what TB said was accurate and not as demeaning as you might think towards Idra. On a side note, that video was awesome =D Because I enjoy the IdrA/Day[9]/Artosis style casting and I guess it just seemed to me that this was a cheap shot by the TB/Husky style casting. I just felt like he was saying that IdrA is a bad caster and should only throw tidbits of information in when there is a gap in the action. It came off to me as a shot at IdrA like "You can't cast by yourself, you need someone to be the main caster and you can only back him up, although I don't even follow the format that I've described to be good".
Comparing the casting of Day9 and Artosis to Idra's is imho completely wrong.
Day9 and Artosis are the perfect mix of entertainment and analysis, whereas Idra is certainly an analytical-only caster.
I find this debate very interesting as it kind of might determine in which direction SC2 will go to in the future.
I imagine a lot of bronze, silver and gold leaguers to follow the competitive scene without having an analytical or intellectual access to it. In other words: They just consume pro games like people who never really played soccer, but still watch the World Championship for entertainment's sake, do.
And then there is this 2 to 5% of master's league players where 50% of them believe that SC2 is too casual, too noob friendly and being dumbed down by Blizzard to please the masses. And I consider a lot of these people to favor Idra's commentating over a more emotional and enthusiastic way of casting.
Anyhow, I kinda get the impression that these people forget why SC2 has become so professional in such a short time: It is because a lot of people care for this game and not only a small circle of BW-elitists.
If you want SC2 to become big so that players can actually make a decent living of it, if you want your big leagues and tournaments to stay as big and professional as they are, then accept that SC2 and all entertainment related to it has to appeal to a broad group of people - including those who don't care about analysis and just want to hear TB or Husky screaming into the mic.
One last thing to wrap this up: There is a reason why Day9 and Artosis are so much loved by the community. They are the only two I can really think of who bring these two worlds of casual and ambitious players together. They are no pale nerds from the dark basement room, they are cool guys who provide both passion and insight to anyone following their commentaries.
Cheers!
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On May 13 2011 17:27 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 17:25 Defrag wrote:
Seriously?
Idra's casting is absolutetly over the top. This is also the reason his, and Sheth's streams are two of the most popular streams on the scene - they give a good insight on the game, instead of just commenting current situation with.
Idra doesnt talk during his streams, and sheth and idra are popular because they are the only good zerg streamers, relax with the fervor there buddy.
He talked for a few days this past week...because he lost a bet on state of the game
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i love idra's casting, i even think to a point where when he says one sentence, it has the value of more than a paragraph of words from different casters. people have different opinions about things, but drama for things like these should stay outta the sc2 community. just creates bad blood between people.
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This just makes Totalbiscuit sound like a tool, complaining like a little girl about how there may actually be demand out there for a style of commentating that involves skills he doesn't possess, trying desperately to persuade his market not to turn against him.
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On May 13 2011 16:59 hmunkey wrote:
I think someone should run a series of surveys to find out which style of casting the community wants as a whole. It would be interesting to see a TL poll on the topic, seeing as the vast majority of stream viewers are TL users too.
Nah they should force a pop-quiz covering the OP before people are allowed to post.
TB makes a good point. He tells it like he sees it (which ironically is earning him hate from Idra fans).
I personally like Idra's analysis, as I'm sure others who take the game a bit more seriously do as well. But TB's point on play-by-play casting is valid. It's there to appeal to a broader audience and fulfills the notion of spoon-feeding the audience, which happens in every sport (except maybe tennis because they're not allowed to). Casual players watch to be entertained; TB makes the point that the article he is commenting on misses that point and presumes (without much evidence) that blunt honesty and analysis is everything that casting should be.
TB kills btw.
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TB isn't really a good caster himself, he just shouts (literary) about everything without knowing anything at all which in longer SC2 games it just get bothersome/annoying in a sense. I do though recognize that there are times where mouthdiarrhea is good but it certainly isn't in SC2 (outside short rushed games).
Just to clarify I'm not talking Husky mouthdiarrhea, TB is on an entirely different level.
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I understood TB's comment different from most of you.
I think TotalBiscuit tries to say that if Idra has no good play-by-play caster at his side, he will satisfy only a small portion of the possible viewership. In an reddit audio interview, TB stated that he would like to cast with a colour commentator at his side. He does not think that pure play-by-play is optimal, either.
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They are no pale nerds from the dark basement room, they are cool guys who provide both passion and insight to anyone following their commentaries.
Cheers!
Are you kidding me, thats exactly who they are. Thats who we all are.
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It seems people just look so hard for reasons to get upset and angry over nothing. Idra from a technical sense is not a great caster. This is a fact of course and this is what TB dedicates most of his argument to. Reading the article he equals the term good caster to the technical qualities of the job. He is not incorrect to do so although it is a limited approach as well, but not a big deal.
Idra's stream is so popular because he is one of the most popular and best in the world and on top of that he is doing commentary. He is popular as a caster because it's a high level player expressing his thoughts.
Whether or not you think this allows you to call someone a 'good caster' doesn't matter. You can take the approach that these things make a good caster, or you can take the approach that from a technical point of view he is not a good caster. It doesn't matter at all, and anyone arguing about this article is pretty much only arguing semantics without knowing it.
A semantics discussion shouldn't be turned into such an issue.
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On May 13 2011 17:31 [F_]aths wrote:
I understood TB's comment different from most of you.
I think TotalBiscuit tries to say that if Idra has no good play-by-play caster at his side, he will satisfy only a small portion of the possible viewership. In an reddit audio interview, TB stated that he would like to cast with a colour commentator at his side. He does not think that pure play-by-play is optimal, either.
This. You all need to get new glasses if you think this is TB flaming/w/e IdrA.
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On May 13 2011 17:27 Holcan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 17:25 Defrag wrote:
Seriously?
Idra's casting is absolutetly over the top. This is also the reason his, and Sheth's streams are two of the most popular streams on the scene - they give a good insight on the game, instead of just commenting current situation with.
Idra doesnt talk during his streams, and sheth and idra are popular because they are the only good zerg streamers, relax with the fervor there buddy.
Idra talked during almost the entire last week. His number of viewers rose in an impressive fashion as soon as he started to do that.
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Idra may lack the vocal skills of many established casters but he definitely brings something to the table that we have seen little to nothing of.
As a caster with little greed for the spotlight but says things that are concise and to the point, I believe he is one of the few (if not only) casters in a major English casted tournament that would work perfectly in a 3 person casting group. He says very little but you know that he has experienced most situations first hand and can give very good insight to the players mindset going into the next game. If we know the mistakes of the player and the points in which he loses momentum and control of the game we can then identify how on tilt he may be in the next game or how much he has stepped up his game.
Idra is a rare gem in the international casting scene and would not have to put much more effort in to developing his casting ability to be up to par with other casters. As a caster, Idra certainly possesses a harder to attain talent that distinguishes him from others as well as a personality that can definitely keep the standards of player skill high in a league. Who doesn't like the pessimistic caster that down talks bad plays and decisions but will rise to the occasion when something truly amazing happens? His co-casters can hype each game up but you'll truly know something you're watching is a golden moment of sc2 when idra gets excited and praises a player.
On the topic of calling out that the game is over and lost, i agree with TB that saying the game is over ruins the hype. But I believe this is just a result of inexperience and that as Idras casting improves so will the timing and phrasing of what he is saying. If Idra were to identify to the viewers as well and his fellow casters that the battle to come is the deciding battle of the game we would be able to actually see a climax to an already fast paced epic game rather than be led along to believe that that battle is as exciting as when the players split their workers.
To sum my post up, Knowing how the game took place, flowed and how risky each play and each decision is can give as much hype going into the ace match as the most exciting play-by-play caster. Casting is a team effort and Idra is that magical 3rd member with that unique casting personality and unrivaled game knowledge that we have been all missing out on.
Grack the Diamond in the Rough Caster fighting~!!!!!!
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On May 13 2011 17:29 Xeteh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2011 16:15 Atlare wrote:On May 13 2011 16:13 Itzli wrote:
TB wasn't really bashing Idra, he was more on the line of saying he is not a good caster but is more of a colour-commentator which is kind of different from a caster. Idra does the analytical stuff while a caster is more of a play by play kind of thing. There 2 different kinds of casting. Thank god somebody else in this thread who can read and not automatically assume TB is being an ass. I don't get how he can say anyone is a play-by-play commentator, though. No one in SC2 does that sort of commentary. I mean watch a baseball or hockey game, watch how a play-by-play commentator does it. They're called "play-by-play" for a reason. Someone like Artosis/Idra are as close to that as we have in the SC2 community, their knowledge of the game is ridiculous. Either one of them can discern what a player is doing by the most minute changes in their build... there is no other commentator that can do that to the same level they can. Color commentary is far more rampant in the SC2 community, someone who will try more than anything else to be entertaining (the ironic part of that entire post is this basically epitomizes how TB casts. He clearly isn't going for the analytical view that only leaves the entertainment (color) commentary for him. Idra clearly isn't someone who is trying to be entertaining when he casts, he's trying to relate exactly what is going on in the match, what each player is doing and what they are doing wrong.
You have the terminology wrong.
The color commentator is the analyst. The Play-by-Play-commentator is the entertainer.
Read the wikipedia-entries TB provided.
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On May 13 2011 17:22 Befree wrote:
I have to imagine that casual viewers of StarCraft feel like this to some extent too. You don't need someone to tell you what you're seeing, you need someone to explain to you why. Without the why, what draws a casual viewer to keep watching?
Sometimes you need someone to tell you what you're seeing. Even moreso than in football (where all the commentator really has to do is say the name of the player and can then wax euphoric about how good his passing is or whatever), SC2 can be a very complex game at times with 50 things going on at the same time. A commentator who is able to point out the important things happening is an important asset in such games. Not everybody likes to peer obsessively at the minimap when just watching a match and if there's a major battle, two drops and tech going on at the same time it's great to have someone point that out!
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Wow. I've been repping the "color commentary" plus "play-by-play" commentary for so long. Posting on so many threads and so many streams. It's what I liked about IPL (although they only had 1 play-by-play caster many times), and I thought was terrible about other leagues e.g. GSL, NASL, because 2 analysts who don't speak quickly and fluently to describe WHAT is actually going on is just boring. Half the time the "analysis" isn't even game related.
It's like "Hey, you talk for 2 minutes, and then I'll talk for 2 minutes.
Let's get the action wrong. Let's completely predict the wrong person is winning (e.g., Gretorp saying Moman was behind although Moman had 70 to 15 harvesters and 150 to 65 food today in his match against Sjow. Gretorp, <3 you, but if you see that you're wrong, just say it and don't drag it out. Just say Oh wait,my mistake, clearly Moman is in the lead sjow is banking 1000 minerals, not macroing, and has 15 scvs.).
Let's waste everyone's time by talking about Starcraft 1 BroodWar Strategies (Artosis: Oh, my God! This reminds me SO much of ______etc. etc. etc. Hey, Artosis, <3 you. But talk about the game! You're missing stuff bc of tangents like that!) Let's miss the drops the observer is showing us (thanks, great obs out there).
Instead of talking about the 2 competitors' actual openings, we will whine about popular openings that are destroying us on ladder. Let's theory craft what he could do next instead of what he's doing now." Thanks for that guys.
Holy shit, I'm so sick of it, I don't watch GSL anymore. I love Artosis and Tasteless, but I am really over commentators commentating live games like they're casting some replay on Youtube.
That being said, I find it interesting to note that TotalBiscuit disqualifies Idra as a play-by-play commentator, actually, as a commentator in general (before he describes the distinction), only to point out that a play-by-play commentator's litany of duties (quite the condensed version of TotalBiscuit's statement, but accurate).
Now, that being said, we can clearly deduce that TotalBiscuit isn't talking specifically about Idra then, as he clearly states Idra is NOT a play-by-play commentator. So he's not bming Idra or nothing, he's just using his position as a great play-by-play commentator to tell everyone the distinctions that should exist in "commentating" replays or live events. Casting is not the same as commentating. Commentating is an established profession that demands exactly what TotalBiscuit is saying.
So don't hate TotalBiscuit for bringing the truth guns out. He's being honest, pointed out flaws in the IPL he himself casted in, and wants commentary to improve. He's not dissing Idra, and if he is, please read closer! Keep it up in the IPL!
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Does totalbiscuit actually believe himself to be a good caster?
User was warned for this post
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EPT
