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Totalbiscuit on IdrA's casting - Page 12
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LoliKuma
United States237 Posts
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
If he would get into it more he would be one of the best. I really like Idras game insights and ideas that he contributes to the cast. And to total biscuit: I dont like his "fugly" voice and he is lacking insight in casting SC II. | ||
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C.W.
88 Posts
Some e-sports-scene caster with a great voice, who is a newbie in starcraft2 gives advice in casting to a guy who is playing this game(s) essentially since the beginning and on a professional level; who was invited to guest-cast/moderate high level starcraft games because said invitee was not... euphoric enough for the casters taste? Since I did look Totalbiscuit up on youtube (totally didn't know who that guy was) I got the impression of a god-given moderation voice, but it also appeared to me that he got some personal issues after I saw him cast this very post that OP quoted. (That cast by the way was technically horrific and I felt a bit embarassed for totalbiscuit). On a productive note I want to add that Idra is full time pro. No one can expect some veteran casting from him since he has no experience whatsoever doing it. Idra however has great game insight and knows his strategies which is why I thought NASL invited him for. Also I do not regard Totalbiscuits post as "bashing" or "smacking" or whatsoever - I regard his tips to be pure waste (Idra does not need improving his casting since he is not a caster) and guess that this was just some deed to get some more attention. | ||
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Swineflew
United States61 Posts
On May 13 2011 17:12 VIB wrote: You completely didn't understand anything TB said whatsoever. Yea, I guess I did. To me it was all TB making up stipulations on how people should cast SC2, which according to him it should be cast more like action sports and less like an RTS. | ||
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blizzind
United States642 Posts
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GummyZerg
United States277 Posts
On May 13 2011 17:11 Two_DoWn wrote: I don't understand your point about suspension of disbelief and comparing it to star wars or movies, seems like a stretch to prove your point. I see what you're saying though, I understand that a caster wants to make moments exciting and keep me in the game, the problem is that most of the community knows when something boring is happening. That's the point I was trying to make. It isnt just for the new crowd. And if you chose to lock yourself off from enjoying someone who makes an effort to keep every game entertaining, well, thats your fault. There is a little thing called suspension of disbelief. It is where actors and storytellers in movies and television are able to do such a good job of portraying unrealistic situations that the audience is forced to stop limiting their awareness to real world situations and actually buy into the unrealistic scenes being presented. Good sci-fi movies like Star Wars do this: you buy into everything going on, even if you rationally know that light sabers arent realistic at all. Better examples are bad movies where you leave the theatre thinking the entire concept was stupid because you were never involved in the movie in the first place. Casing and viewing needs to be viewed in this light. Limiting yourself from enjoying someone like TB who keeps games exciting and entertaining because it is meant for "the new crowd" just harms yourself: its a 1 way ticket to burning out on Starcraft. If you cant enjoy excitement, how are you going to enjoy dry analysis after 3 years of viewing? Hell, I think casters need to show LESS. Stop showing the production tab. Stop flagging upgrades unless you are actually trying to build suspense for a timing push. There was one cast from the gsl, Clide vs someone, where the caster actually turned off the production tab. Clide won a battle and it looked like the zerg was dead. Only 15 ultras hatched and the zerg was right back in it. It was epic because it was so unexpected: limiting information made the game memorable. If you find a situation in a game to be unentertaining, it is because the caster failed. They let you as the viewer have too much information. The suspense is gone. Boxer flying 3 dropships full of marines isnt very exciting if you know that that is all the army he has. But Boxer flying 3 dropships around can be very exciting if the casters dont tell you what the populations are. Or they raise their voices and inflection to increase suspense as the drop goes in rather than saying "well, this is it, all MC has to do is clean this up and he wins." I'll also never get burned out on watching Starcraft, I've been watching Starcraft since broodwar came out. I'll never burn out. But that's beside the point, I'm also not sure how I feel about casters "showing less" I think everyone wants as much knowledge about exchanges and build orders as possible. | ||
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
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haflo
140 Posts
so i am the only one who would like to see idra and TB dual cast after that ? TB is great caster (watch his WTF serias if you havn't) idra is a graet analitic comentator they are both blunt and direct there could be great fireworks during the cast (think of old style WWF commentating) , seriously here i think they have a big boom potential , ipl/NASL make it happen ! i will pay ^^ | ||
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zasda
381 Posts
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Comogury
United States412 Posts
On May 13 2011 17:10 hmunkey wrote: And who is the average person? NASL viewers are by far people who have played SC2 or at least know the basics of the game. I'd actually be willing to bet the average NASL viewer knows as much if not more than TB about the game. For this average viewer, having analytical commentators is a far better thing. SC2 isn't being broadcast on TV nor is this a more mainstream Youtube cast. People seem to forget that professional SC2 is an extremely niche market. Stop treating the viewers like they're dumbasses. And what's wrong with doing that? Some people really are dumbasses that just want to watch a damn game and get excited about it. That's kind of hard when idiots like the person who posted the link on reddit say everyone should be just like IdrA. It feels like you don't want SC2 to break out of the niche market. If everyone were to cast like IdrA, only people like people on TL would be interested in SC2. What it needs to grow is more people that cast in a way that excites its audience. You want the community to cater to a viewership that already exists. How in the world is the game going to grow if that happens? | ||
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Oneoldfogie
United Kingdom61 Posts
I don't claim to be a fan of TB, quite the opposite; I can't stand him. However, I don't see why people are getting angry for him saying Idra is bad, even though we know that, and don't care. (Thats my view on Idra's casting anyway) | ||
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ArhK
France287 Posts
On May 13 2011 16:12 blade55555 wrote: For the casual Idra probably isn't a good caster too, to any player playing competitively or something he is amazing. His knowledge is just fantastic and that is why I love when he speaks. He knows what he's talking about unlike most commentators and its very refreshing honestly. Wish there were more casters like him ^_^. This. It is so refreshing not to have artificial herp derp when a game is over. You can still enjoy the game, knowing it is over. Thinking you have to hide this from the casual fan base is pretty stupid imo. I think trying to make the casual viewers better at understanding the game will benefit all. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18042 Posts
I feel the truth is more in the middle: IdrA often GGs too soon ingame and bringing that over to casting could be very detrimental to the enjoyment of the match. However, trying to hype up a game that is clearly over and one player is just hanging in there with his 1base 10scv vs. 5base opponent lacks sincerity. Sometimes it's necessary to just admit that a player has been crushed and just talk about something only semi-related. It's what happens in soccer (if a match is 6-0 ahead in the 80th minute nobody wonders whether the opponent can stage a comeback, at most a single goal to salvage their honour, but nobody really cares anymore). As for talking about a match when it's boring, that should definitely be done: you should try to hype up the exciting bits in a boring match. A terrible TvT tankline vs. tankline with horrible micro and people attacking straight into tanks can still be made interesting if the casters just focus on the death and destruction bits. Just as a terribly boring football match can be made somewhat entertaining by the commentators hyping up some players' play (maybe referring to other matches, but still giving you hope that something magical will happen when he gets the ball). | ||
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DrManhattan11
Switzerland79 Posts
On May 13 2011 16:06 Swineflew wrote: + Show Spoiler + I'm rather disappointed that this article did very little to substantiate it's claims, but allow me to try and provide a counterpoint anyway. IdrA is not a good caster. He does not have the training to be a good caster, he is too quiet, he is frequently monotone, he stumbles in his speech, he has no flow to speak of, he lacks the ability to express passion and emotion. He is however, an analyst of exceptional skill and calibre, easily one of the best in the business. He should be lauded for this however the distinction must be made there. This is how sportscasting works 101 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_by_play http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_commentator IdrA is a colour-commentator. He fits all the criteria, he is analytical, he is there to provide background and extensive game knowledge, based on experience as a current/ex-player. He is there to fill in time when the play-by-play commentator is not talking and as a knowledgeable resource to back up the play-by-play commentator, who is more often than not, not a professional player/coach/ex-player, but a professional broadcaster. Of the listed commentators in the IPL, there was 1 colour commentator (Painuser) and 4 play-by-play commentators (HD, DJWheat, Catspyjamas and myself). This was in itself a problem and is not the correct setup, something that all the casters have acknowledged publically and are doing their utmost to resolve (to the point where Apollo may be moving in with me temporarily if we are chosen to cast IPL 2, doing all my assigned matchs with in-studio co-commentary). Now onto the main point of this article, the idea of 'telling it like it is'. This is fairly ironic in itself, since casters frequently get criticised for doing such shallow things as telling people what's going on. Half the time it seems some hardcore viewers have an Inception mindset "WE HAVE TO GO DEEPER!", demanding almost precognitive casting and metaphysical insight. Lasers may also be involved. It is not the play-by-play casters job to tell you when a game is over, it is the play-by-play casters job to heighten tension, provoke emotion and increase the viewer's excitement. You cannot do that by calling a game before it ends. The climax of a game should be the GG, regardless of whether or not it's blatantly too late. You call a GG 10 minutes before it actually happens, even if it's absolutely the right call, then you stop engaging a good portion of your viewers, specifically the majority of the viewerbase, the casuals who are there for entertainment. In-depth analysis in sports is generally done post-game, not mid-game. There is definitely space for analysis, plenty of it, but drowning a viewer in 10 mins of in-depth analysis of how Player A fucked up while the game is still going on in the background, will turn off the casual viewer. I should also point out that it is not dishonest to avoid calling game over before it actually happens. You can without question explain that the situation is very bad for Player A with a wide variety of colourful synonyms and language. However, let us consider the viewing demographic. Your average master's league player, hell even high diamond, is definitely analytical enough and knowledgeable enough to see when it's over. He does not need to be told that it's over. He will not learn anything from being told that it's over. I refer to this sentence at the end of the article "Don’t be afraid to tell us when a game is over, or when players aren’t playing like they deserve our attention. Do so, and your audience will only gain a better understanding of the game." Hardcore players will not learn anything from this. Casual players more often than not, don't WANT to learn anything from this. Different kinds of people watch SC2 for different reasons. SC2 has a substantial viewerbase that doesn't even own the game for god's sake, what do you think they tune in for? It certainly isn't to learn how to play better, they don't play at all. No, they tune in to watch one of the most, if not the most exciting eSport in the world and they expect it to be presented as such. It is impossible to get excited about a game that ended 10 minutes ago, when you've just had the fact rubbed in your face by the casting team. It is possible, if you are a skilled play-by-play caster, to keep the tension up, particularly when there are more casual, less knowledgeable viewers watching. You do not have to lie to them, but you don't have to tell them it's done 10 minutes before the GG either. By all means, have the analyst explain why Player A is in such a bad situation and the decisions that lead him up to this point (although I really think some of that should be saved for post-game commentary, a'la sports), but as far as I'm concerned, calling an early GG is a mortal casting sin and should be avoided at all costs. Just my two pence folks. It's a nice opinion piece but it lacks perspective on what casting actually is, as well as being from an obviously niche viewpoint which, while it should be catered to without question, is not the only way to look at things, nor even the majority view. Here is a snip of TB's comment. Link here Anyone else see this and think "wtf, who is this guy to call out another caster when you're only shining point is your voice"? He does not "only" shin with his voice! His voice is so mcuh more then just a voice. It brings you fun, it brings you excitment and it brigs you entertainment. So in short it brings you all this what u want from a commentator. TB knows his bussines well! He may not be the best colour - commentator but he understands the commentating it self pretty good and also he has the skills to show us all how good he realy knows it! So dont say his only shining point is his voice ... it might have been long time ago but he evolved around it and made the best thing happen out if it : FUN and ENTERTAINMENT!  | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
"It is not the play-by-play casters job to tell you when a game is over, it is the play-by-play casters job to heighten tension, provoke emotion and increase the viewer's excitement. You cannot do that by calling a game before it ends. The climax of a game should be the GG, regardless of whether or not it's blatantly too late. You call a GG 10 minutes before it actually happens, even if it's absolutely the right call, then you stop engaging a good portion of your viewers, specifically the majority of the viewerbase, the casuals who are there for entertainment. In-depth analysis in sports is generally done post-game, not mid-game. There is definitely space for analysis, plenty of it, but drowning a viewer in 10 mins of in-depth analysis of how Player A fucked up while the game is still going on in the background, will turn off the casual viewer." The job of casters is to entertain, and nothing else. Whatever you find entertaining is subjective. Some people are into the more energetic style you describe. Others, like me, want brass tacks analysis. So from my point of view, there's nothing wrong with saying that a game is over before the other player leaves because that's simply the fact. I find it condescending and silly when a player has absolutely no chance, yet the casters continue as if there is any tension left in the game. In short, the premise of the OP presumes that everybody wants the same thing as he from the casters. | ||
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Slakter
Sweden1947 Posts
Really. If you can chill, Chill. | ||
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Parnage
United States7414 Posts
Obviously Idra is not going to go into casting and he's doing this out of willingness to help or some such but I suppose it's okay to tell him how he can improve on his casting. Believe it or not I'd love to listen to Idra more if he felt like he actually cared but honestly it sounds like he's answering a email about a replay he just watched half the time. I dunno, maybe it's just me. TB has every right to tell him he can improve because he can and if he's going to cast more it'd behove him and the viewers if he sounded more into it. Ya know? TB isn't slamming him, he's just explaining how he can do better. If someone tells me how I can play better I take the advice and see if it works why should it be such a big deal that TB is giving advice to Idra on casting? | ||
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Befree
695 Posts
From my own experience, I have never understood this idea that casuals want excitement and hardcores want knowledge. I can't imagine anything less exciting than watching something, having no idea what is going on, and just listening to a person be excited about it. I don't watch sports much, but when I do, I absolutely love it when there is an analyst to really explain what's going on. It helps me so much. I'm able to really get an appreciation for what's going on and the strategy/skill involved in it. Occasionally this is not the case, though, and I'm stuck listening to just play-by-play. It just becomes a big mess to me and as a casual viewer, I'm quickly turned off by it because I have no way of appreciating it. I have to imagine that casual viewers of StarCraft feel like this to some extent too. You don't need someone to tell you what you're seeing, you need someone to explain to you why. Without the why, what draws a casual viewer to keep watching? I guess my point I'm trying to make is that I'm questioning the truth behind the common claim that casuals do not appreciate/want analysis. I just can't follow the logic that would make this the case. I value play-by-play to some extent as well, but I just don't think it's value is comparable to what you get from analysis. I guess we'll see how things turn out over time. Perhaps we'll find a better way to gauge the opinion of the community to really get an idea of what they're looking for in casts. I'll just keep on enjoying Idra's casting in the meantime, though. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On May 13 2011 17:18 GummyZerg wrote: I don't understand your point about suspension of disbelief and comparing it to star wars or movies, seems like a stretch to prove your point. I see what you're saying though, I understand that a caster wants to make moments exciting and keep me in the game, the problem is that most of the community knows when something boring is happening. That's the point I was trying to make. I'll also never get burned out on watching Starcraft, I've been watching Starcraft since broodwar came out. I'll never burn out. But that's beside the point, I'm also not sure how I feel about casters "showing less" I think everyone wants as much knowledge about exchanges and build orders as possible. The point about suspension of disbelief was my analogy to being connected and entertained by the game presented. A good storyteller, which is what a caster is, is able to keep you connected to the game at all times, no matter what is going on. You might rationally know in some part of your head that a player is going to lose, but a good caster is able to get you to shut that voice up and enjoy the game. As for showing less, I feel it is a great tool to utilize when casting. Choosing what information to divulge when casting is a great way to build excitement. Perfect information is boring. Who is going to watch a match if they know exactly what is going to happen. The reason sports are so great is because they are unpredictable. In the extreme case of a heavily one sided game, limiting information is incredibly useful in making it seem not so one sided and a little less predictable. | ||
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Defrag
Poland414 Posts
Idra's casting is absolutetly over the top. This is also the reason his, and Sheth's streams are two of the most popular streams on the scene - they give a good insight on the game, instead of just commenting current situation with. | ||
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