On October 24 2012 16:47 CiCeRoSC2 wrote: When Destiny started talking about BW, I would have loved to have seen the ITG guys remind the whole community that BW's success was only partially due to Blizzard. The game wasn't even balanced if you used the maps they provided. People outside of Blizzard were who made BW a great esport. Too many people, perhaps Destiny included, think that BW was this holy grail of balance all on its own and that it was destined to be successful because Blizzard was touched by god in the late 90's. It wasn't. It became balanced and became a successful esport because people outside of Blizzard took the game and made it their own. Nobody needed #saveBW to make it sucessful, they did the legwork to make proper maps, start teams, make tournaments, and form the organizations that made it what it was.
That's not the point at all. Destiny even says on the show that the average person doesn't care about how balanced PVZ is at the highest levels or whatever; they just want to play UMS maps with their friends and stuff. That's what most people in Brood War were doing: UMS maps, BGH or fastest. That's the point he's trying to make.
I was one of those guys in BW that mostly played UMS maps when I was 13. I think most of us didn't care about pro BW at all, just like most DOTA players in WC3 didn't care about pro WC3 at all. Just because more people play the custom games doesn't necessarily mean that they are supporting the pro scene at all. As far as I can tell, the people that followed pro BW were the ones that played the normal game. That was just my experience though, I don't think anyone has really looked into this in any scientific fashion. I could be terribly wrong.
Maybe it would be different now because the NA/EU pro scene is much stronger and there is better streaming technology. We don't really know though.
I think there would certainly be some spillover of people playing UMS/custom maps that would discover esports through that, but I suspect it would be a small proportion of them.
Yeah I don't get this "solution" either.
People like to play team games with their friends, so we'll give them 4v4s/FFAs on UMS maps and they'll end up watching our 1v1 tournaments on standard maps.
Uh what? Why not just play a team game like LoL and then watch tournaments that actually resemble the game you're playing?
It's also horrible communication-wise. You can't go around telling people your game is two different things. If the only way out for 1v1 games is to advertise themselves to casuals by pretending they're team games then 1v1 games are fucked.
I had friends in WC3 who only played 4v4s and custom games, but we still watched vods/replays of moon, grubby, etc. Even though they didn't 1v1 themselves, I could still link them an awesome 1v1 game and tell them "hey watch this, it's a cool game" and they would understand it and enjoy it.
Painuser was trying to make the point, before he was shouted down, that the broadest base of the game is the casual base. Everyone starts there, and it builds up from there. Nobody buys SC2 and jumps immediately into 1v1 ladder and starts grinding games to get into master league except for people who already played WC3/BW/other competitive games.
On October 24 2012 17:35 dynwar7 wrote: Wow seriously? After destiny rage quitted, how much swearing did djWheat use?
What the hell? Ok, I am sure I am not the only one. Lost all respect for him. I used to love djWheat & Apollo casting combination but now....just apollo.
It's djwheat. He swears. Do you actually get upset when someone swears?
Yeah I do. A little? No problem. That was too loud, too much and just crazy coming from someone who I thought was well mannered.
And incontrol...I dont really know 100% what happened to him/what he did, however, his reputation I think has just been...demolished. Looking at this
On October 24 2012 17:26 zefreak wrote: Destiny should write a post about how CASUALS are TURNED OFF by the drama whoring and doom and gloom found on r/starcraft.
There is really no point in doom and gloom. WCS Europe had over 100,000 people watching. It's just a select few who believe that because LoL has five times the viewership for their World Final, that nothing but LoL (and maybe Dota2) can be an e-sport come next year. I've seen plenty of LoL and especially Dota2 tournaments with below 50,000 viewers and around the same amount as a SC2 event.
Starladder, one of the bigger Dota2 tournaments and the biggest I believe since the International, was on the same weekend as Dreamhack Dracula, the least hyped big tournament of the year, and had around the same number of viewers the weekend. I might be wrong since you can watch in game client and there might have been different streams other than one listed on TL, but it was hovering around the same 30,000~40,000 as Dreamhack.
I've seen plenty of online LoL tournaments on IPL and others that only get 20,000 or below. GOM is hosting an IPL5 qualifier with the best Korean teams in the world and offering free HQ, but all the games are around 2,000~3,000 viewers at the highest. It's not like everything LoL-related brings in millions of viewers. Valve and Riot are doing well, but it's all sunshine and millions of viewers every week over on that side.
LoL is doing amazingly now, and I respect it as a different kind of e-sport, but who knows about the future? With the Asian teams getting better and better, and the NA scene doing terribly at the World Finals, what happens if they take over the scene just like Koreans did in SC2? Will the fans keep tuning in if their favorite teams get beat down by "faceless" Koreans and Chinese?
I agree, but ever since Destiny's post the community has flipped its shit. It's a positive feedback loop of negativity and I have never seen such a palpable example of mindless groupthink. There was a thread on reddit about someone who watched Dreamhack and fell in love with SC2, just the kind of new player we as a community are interested in fostering, and he mentioned how the doom and gloom and complaining was a big turn off. It's a good thing he fell in love BEFORE he went on TL or reddit.
SaveHoTS and Destiny/Reddit are doing as much harm as good for the scene.
On October 24 2012 17:35 dynwar7 wrote: Wow seriously? After destiny rage quitted, how much swearing did djWheat use?
What the hell? Ok, I am sure I am not the only one. Lost all respect for him. I used to love djWheat & Apollo casting combination but now....just apollo.
For the love of God can we please stop with this shit? Just go fucking email twitch and tell them how offended you are by his 'behavior'
PS: repost of a video of wheat in his natural setting if you previously had no context of his personality
On October 24 2012 16:04 TheWorldToCome wrote: Wheat's analogy with American Idol/Breaking Bad was literally the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
its a good point, he just didnt get the opportunity to carry the analogy through because everything was getting all stupid. geoff mentioned the reasons, separately, earlier in the show. marketing people are not stupid, they do not just look at viewers and allot money to them proportionately, or put all of their money into whatever has the highest viewership. their goal is to sell products, pure exposure is good and with lol (and american idol) you get that purely because theres so many people watch. however if a big percentage of those people arent likely to buy your product whether you sponsor them or not, it's not really all that important how many people watch. lol has a younger audience, many of them are much more casual fans, they're less likely to have disposable income and less likely to buy a product purely because its attached to their game.
sc2 as an esport has proven its a sustainable, quality product. big companies have invested in it before and are apparently happy with the returns as they keep investing and more companies keep coming in. the fanbase is not going to disappear even if it rises and falls, and its a very dedicated, passionate fanbase.
so for the analogy, lol/american idol fans = 14 year old girls with no money, sc2/breaking bad fans = real people.
This is why I have so much respect for Idra despite the flack he cops for "being smug" or bm - though saying destiny's post was too negative when Idra is very out spoken regarding his negative views of SC2... but the guy is smart and articulate Its the same reason I still think that destiny is worth listening to and I feel like if it was just painuser and destiny we would have had a much calmer and logical discussion
Promote painuser to host cause damn I have never seen someone in the sc2 community so calm and professional in such an embarrassing situation before
I hoped for a logical and thought provoking debate amoungst some clearly intelligent people but Incontrol playing up his attitude in a situation where it wasn't called for and djWheat's utterly embarrassing display of unprofessional lack of control did a damage that will echo beyond this weeks episode and even this show.
To address the points yes the game isn't going to totally die just as BW didn't totally die - there are people still playing it and streaming and getting viewers. But the point is its sad and frustrating to imagine where SC2 could be if blizzard had done things differently and while its like LoL would still be ahead of SC2 - with better interface and bnet features sc2 would be bigger than it is
And just want to say again OMFG painuser seriously single handedly saving itg and e-sports. damn man so much respect for you if you ever read this <3
On October 24 2012 17:35 dynwar7 wrote: Wow seriously? After destiny rage quitted, how much swearing did djWheat use?
What the hell? Ok, I am sure I am not the only one. Lost all respect for him. I used to love djWheat & Apollo casting combination but now....just apollo.
It's djwheat. He swears. Do you actually get upset when someone swears?
And incontrol...I dont really know 100% what happened to him/what he did, however, his reputation I think has just been...demolished. Looking at this
It's kinda funny watching incontrol conduct himself in this manner, but also really really worrying. This is the kinda shit people who email sponsors can latch on to.
On October 24 2012 17:35 dynwar7 wrote: Wow seriously? After destiny rage quitted, how much swearing did djWheat use?
What the hell? Ok, I am sure I am not the only one. Lost all respect for him. I used to love djWheat & Apollo casting combination but now....just apollo.
It's djwheat. He swears. Do you actually get upset when someone swears?
Yeah I do. A little? No problem. That was too loud, too much and just crazy coming from someone who I thought was well mannered.
And incontrol...I dont really know 100% what happened to him/what he did, however, his reputation I think has just been...demolished. Looking at this
You didn't used to love djWheat or you would have known about his personality. He is an awesome guy and better than 99.9% of the people in this community. If swearing is enough to make you dislike him, sucks for you.
On October 24 2012 17:26 zefreak wrote: Destiny should write a post about how CASUALS are TURNED OFF by the drama whoring and doom and gloom found on r/starcraft.
There is really no point in doom and gloom. WCS Europe had over 100,000 people watching. It's just a select few who believe that because LoL has five times the viewership for their World Final, that nothing but LoL (and maybe Dota2) can be an e-sport come next year. I've seen plenty of LoL and especially Dota2 tournaments with below 50,000 viewers and around the same amount as a SC2 event.
Starladder, one of the bigger Dota2 tournaments and the biggest I believe since the International, was on the same weekend as Dreamhack Dracula, the least hyped big tournament of the year, and had around the same number of viewers the weekend. I might be wrong since you can watch in game client and there might have been different streams other than one listed on TL, but it was hovering around the same 30,000~40,000 as Dreamhack.
I've seen plenty of online LoL tournaments on IPL and others that only get 20,000 or below. GOM is hosting an IPL5 qualifier with the best Korean teams in the world and offering free HQ, but all the games are around 2,000~3,000 viewers at the highest. It's not like everything LoL-related brings in millions of viewers. Valve and Riot are doing well, but it's all sunshine and millions of viewers every week over on that side.
LoL is doing amazingly now, and I respect it as a different kind of e-sport, but who knows about the future? With the Asian teams getting better and better, and the NA scene doing terribly at the World Finals, what happens if they take over the scene just like Koreans did in SC2? Will the fans keep tuning in if their favorite teams get beat down by "faceless" Koreans and Chinese?
However, at least for me and probably an even larger base of LOL players and the GOM qualifier is that if you're not very good at technical stuff. Then you now HAVE to sign up using either facebook, or twitter. Whereas the first option is something many would not do for a variety of reasons, and the second one because it's not used by that many people. Those who made it before this new policy don't need to however. Additionally, you need to download gomplayer, install it log in etc just to even watch the games of a korean qualifier for a tournament. Now seriously, you think people will bother doing that in general. I tried, until I got angry at needing gom player and gave basically gave up and went off to watch Ocelote Those qualifiers for IPL are like the weeklyish NASL games you just don't bother watching.
LoL is nowhere near this drama filled there is some new shit on this site and SC reddit every week about somebody doing something a little bit wrong and "upsetting" everyone. Get over your fucking selves.
The toxic environment here is disgusting and you guys keep arguing about what...
A friend high five another friend? After a heated debate? Guys if you can't watch 3 people argue about something their passionate about then why watch a TALK show. I can understand that the name calling was unnecessary, but still I open Reddit and there is a 1,000. Fucking 1000 page thread about this shit. What in the actual fuck.. so much drama.
On October 24 2012 16:06 Blackhawk13 wrote: Incontrol, I think you better do yourself a favor and call it a night on this thread. Nothing good can come out of posting here- especially while you're still heated.
he already did. i guess he realized that arguing, calling ppl idiots, and making bets with people on the internet ruins his already bad reputation.
Actually my "bad reputation" has made me one of the most followed, listened to and publicized figures in SC2. You want to take another crack at pretending I am not doing this right?
you like being popular off your bad reputation?
If he indeed becomes popular in doing it, as you said yourself he was, why not?
Maybe because Idra and Incontrol not only represent themselves but represents team EG as a whole? esp. Incontrol who is captain and Idra who DESTINY even stated as THE best foreign player of SCBW, Idra is should be on the Hall of Fame but what I must ask is Idra are you really fcking happy as to were sc2 is? u get thousands of viewers that i understand but thats what a typical average LoL player gets daily. like blizzard listens to you guys so please say something for us the community
How can you STILL not get that? They repeatedly stated that they are NOT happy with SC2. They complain all the time about Blizzard and Bnet. How can you even think that a question like "are you really fcking happy as to were sc2 is" makes any sense right now?
Then please tell me why they argue with Destiny, who wants the community to rally on making blizzard take notice of all of their practices so that HOPEFULLY they fix all the bullshit for HOTS. Comparing Blizzard to Riot Games, showing how if blizzard acted like riot, then the community wouldnt be mad and have debates like this. (sc2 is not at the place we all want it to be and either we have to fix it (not going to happen with controlled policys of bnet) so we gotta fight for change in HOTS)
Assuming the fact that no changes for the casual players will come from HOTS except 1v1 unranked games, how can pro players be satisfied with this?
The only difference between the EG guys and Destiny is that the EG guys don't think that SC2 will die if Blizzard doesn't do everything the community wants. They want many of the same fixes that Destiny wants, but they also see room for improvement outside of Blizzard. In Destiny's post, he basically said that the community can do nothing to help SC2 grow, its all up to Blizzard. That is what guys like IdrA, incontrol, and wheat were getting so mad about. Destiny then got mad because he thought they were "defending Blizzard," which they clearly weren't. Did Geoff and Greg show their argument well? Probably not, but I do think that their premise is much stronger than Destiny's.
i wasnt even particularly mad about his post. he was obviously very dramatic and exaggerated but thats kind of just who he is, i didnt even mention him in my first comment on the whole thing. i called the #savehots people idiots, because they were, but destiny is, on the whole, right. hes just naive and going about it the wrong way. blizzard making shit better would be fantastic. its pretty clear its not gonna happen, or at least not very quickly. best thing to do? fix the things we can do ourselves. worst thing to do? say shits fucked if blizzard doesnt start behaving in a completely different way.
geoff was geoff, he makes his point in a really dramatic funny way. anyone who criticizes that and in the same breath defends destiny is a hypocritical moron. no one got upset until destiny came on yelling and cutting off anyone else who tried to talk, and throwing the same short sighted point at us over and over again, despite the fact that no one was disagreeing with that aspect of his argument.
hahah, you know your explanation analogy was so incorrect with the 14yr old girls having no cash and real ppl watching sc2, plus I saw the gif on reddit, it mustve been an achievement for you getting a hi5 from a former football player, congrats to you bud. You may be the best foreigner but you certainly are not the best foreigner for sc2 anymore.
Incontrol and Idra losing control of the community and spamming back is one of the funniest things I've seen in a while. To see the top act like actual little Halo 3 kids is amazing. Coming from great aspects that are now winning nothing.
On October 24 2012 17:35 dynwar7 wrote: Wow seriously? After destiny rage quitted, how much swearing did djWheat use?
What the hell? Ok, I am sure I am not the only one. Lost all respect for him. I used to love djWheat & Apollo casting combination but now....just apollo.
It's djwheat. He swears. Do you actually get upset when someone swears?
Yeah I do. A little? No problem. That was too loud, too much and just crazy coming from someone who I thought was well mannered.
And incontrol...I dont really know 100% what happened to him/what he did, however, his reputation I think has just been...demolished. Looking at this
You didn't used to love djWheat or you would have known about his personality. He is an awesome guy and better than 99.9% of the people in this community. If swearing is enough to make you dislike him, sucks for you.
Relax bro.
I loved djWheat when he was casting with Apollo in MLG. DIdn't I say that? If not, my apologies, now you know.
So yes, I loved him in the well-mannered casting mode alongside Apollo,not the swearing part.
Well, I dont like him now. Simple. Not the end of the world. No loss
On October 24 2012 17:35 dynwar7 wrote: Wow seriously? After destiny rage quitted, how much swearing did djWheat use?
What the hell? Ok, I am sure I am not the only one. Lost all respect for him. I used to love djWheat & Apollo casting combination but now....just apollo.
It's djwheat. He swears. Do you actually get upset when someone swears?
When it's a personal attack on someone, yes. He's the moderator, he should be better than that. Props to Painuser for trying to tell people they didn't need to resort to that.
Seems like the majority of the community are really sensitive and just do not know DjWheat at all. Wheat was never a calm and collective type person. He's screamed countless times on other episodes of ITG so don't be surprised and just begin to hate on him. All this "he's killing e-sports" is just stupid. You people are acting as if it's an apocalypse because Wheat was yelling. This show is informative and allows the community to hear what these SC2 figures think of X and Y but it is also a form of entertainment...well at least for me. Was the "debate" entertaining? I think so.
Destiny requested to get on constantly sending skype chats to Wheat. What do you think was going to happen? The hosts and the "pillars" of the show initially kept their cool but it was Destiny who started yelling. It was Destiny who kept interrupting. It was Destiny who was not listening/comprehending/understanding to what they were talking about and just lashing out random things "blizzard could fix" which they all told him they agreed from the start. What they didn't agree with is that "blizzard alone can save this game" aspect that Destiny stated.
Yes, it seemed Idra and Inc were a bit frustrated with Destiny b/c it seemed like w/e they said went from one ear to the other and nothing was getting out of it. At some point, Idra was fed up and just made his last statement to Destiny which is if you are not happy with how SC2 operates in the e-sports scene and you are happy with how LoL operates, then go to LoL.
It got out of control and may seem unprofessional by many but these "last time I'm watching ITG"...give me a break. I'm pretty sure you will be tuning in next week just like the rest of us b/c you want to hear what these SC2 figures have to say.
Grow up and stop taking these little hissy fits and go overboard about how much you dislike it.
So a few dudes got all riled up and had their periods on a stream because they're all super passionate and shit. Cool. Grow some cojones and get over it.
What do you want to happen? Apologies all around? What the fuck is that going to achieve? You people are getting mad for the sake of getting mad. You live and breathe drama and it's pathetic.
Wheat screaming nigh uncontrollably at people is nothing new, boy do i know that. calling people a "pussy ass bitch" etc etc however isn't acceptable if you claim you're some kind of important figure.
That sad, the longer the sc2 "scene" drags on, the less and less important these people seem to me personally. not really a personal attack, but stupid shit like this just kills that whole "professional" thing so many people, including wheat, tried to hype up. End of the day they're just guys talking about and playing sc2.
Destiny can get away with it, hes never claimed to be "professional" in that sense and has distanced himself from that, presenting his personality with no filter. Wheat, a caster at mlg and owner of onemoregame, however, is a different story.
On October 24 2012 17:33 mewbert wrote: I liked destinys arguement, pretty childish behavior from incontrol/idra/wheat but you are pretty naive if you didnt know they were capable of acting like this
I also find it disgusting how idra calls the game terrible but once reality hits him and he sees his paycheck might get smaller all of the sudden the game is perfect and SC2 is in good shape
Based Mewbert
Why doesn't anyone mention the worst travesty of ITG's last episode? as in.. when Incontrol said he was getting a raise.. wait what? Hope he was kidding that's for sure
Edit: And doesn't anyone realize this episode was about the same as that SoTG with Avilo? Except of course that DjWheat was hosting the show, instead of McBeta.
Geoff has completely lost it... and has resolved to insult every individual person who insults him on the internet...
Greg on the other hand is having peaceful conversations with the people who disagree with him...on teamliquid.net....
This is so strange.. where am I...
So strange to see Greg post on TL.net again. This is how passionate he is about blizzard sucking at promoting starcraft 2 as an esport.... times must be desperate indeed. 0.o
EPT
Those qualifiers for IPL are like the weeklyish NASL games you just don't bother watching.
