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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 08 2011 21:58 Kyuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2011 21:46 Tofugrinder wrote:
I was waiting for Terrans to switch to mech.. as a Protoss player I love carriers, but I cant find anyway working that against bio. With the Thor change maybe even less terrans are trying Mech I think The biggest issues with any high tier tech is how/when you transition into them. I'm sure there will be builds on there designed to get carrier tech at a good time (personally working on some) and not die to different types of terran pushes. I really like this patch btw, I think it will play out very well. I'm still abit baffled by the fact that they don't change the colossi though, the design of the unit is just bad and I can't imagine them beeing happy about it. It needs to be more nisched, and maybe less powerful, smaller, take less psi or something along those lines. I dont know, but the design is just bad imho.
Colossuses have plenty of weaknesses to balance their strength. Everything in the game can hit them. Air units are super effective so that if terran or zerg get a lead they switch to heavier air and completely own colossus play. Colossus suck on their own, in open spaces even with support, or as worker harassment. The weaknesses outweigh their strengths almost.
Why dont we talk about nerfing medivacs or infestors since they cost less but more game changing support units. People that like to 1a are the ones who complain about colossus. Just try fancier tactics ok.
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Fungal growth should not be able to stack casted imo. Thats the only thing I would add to this patch.
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On May 09 2011 02:47 Theberlinwall wrote:
As a Terran player i actually have to say i overall really like this patch, however the one thing i really don't like is the the Thor change. I'm in masters(was 3400+, season 1) and i have been tinkering with Mech a lot recently, with some success.
The fact it is that immortals just about own lone tanks, and although 1 on 1 agasint a thor (no cannons), the Thor will win, immortals are still extremely cost efficent vs mech, that being said i actually feel the strike cannons is required when facing an immortal, chargelot, collosi based army.
i actually will be concerned about the future viability of mech if this change makes it past the the ptr and onto the ladder, too me the strike cannon(with no energy) was a good balance between its absolute devastation and the cost effectiveness of the immortals. Now with an energy bar, not only are thors susceptible to feedback damage but this will also render the Thor without cannons, which i feel are imperative.
i really want to see mech become more viable and not less. i really dont want the thor to become the next reaper.
That's why they lowered the gas cost of Ghosts so you could go mech and BC's. I think this patch will increase dynamics because Ghost will become so integral.
Likewise toss needs HT's to deal with mech rather than just spam immos. Immortals are just terrible vs thor with strike cannon and SCVs on repair. Try it yourself in unit tester. Take only 8 thor vs 16 immos. Strike Cannon first 8 and you will kill off the rest of the immos with normal attack and only lose 3 Thor, you'll find the cost effectiveness you speak of disappears when massing hence the need for feedback since unit designed to counter fails miserably.
I think 150 energy is a bit stupid tho to use SC. should be 50-100. If you're going to be vulnerable to feedback they need to give thor a chance to use SC out of the box and often rather than walk around with full energy.
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On May 09 2011 12:59 Mykill wrote:
Fungal growth should not be able to stack casted imo. Thats the only thing I would add to this patch.
I didn't realize FG stacked?
IMO the thing missing is for blizz to figure out how to get carriers in the game. It's ridiculous such a venerable unit from SC1 and toss top tier capital ship is never used. Granted BC's/Ultra are not used much either but they are found in games 100x more than carrier.
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On May 10 2011 00:11 tdt wrote:
I didn't realize FG stacked?
well it doesn't really stack, but sort of
like Cast Fungal wait a Sec, cast again to kill Workers.
while this wouldn't be an issue with storm, since you can dodge it, Fungal stuns so...
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Cannot wait to try this out. Mad excited about the ghost change
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On May 10 2011 00:14 freetgy wrote:well it doesn't really stack, but sort of like Cast Fungal wait a Sec, cast again to kill Workers. while this wouldn't be an issue with storm, since you can dodge it, Fungal stuns so...
So yeah, fungal growth does NOT stack. Don't be fooled.
Casting a second one before the first one has ended will simply override the first one.
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GG. Thors are now back to unviable vs toss...
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On May 10 2011 00:11 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 12:59 Mykill wrote:
Fungal growth should not be able to stack casted imo. Thats the only thing I would add to this patch.
I didn't realize FG stacked? IMO the thing missing is for blizz to figure out how to get carriers in the game. It's ridiculous such a venerable unit from SC1 and toss top tier capital ship is never used. Granted BC's/Ultra are not used much either but they are found in games 100x more than carrier.
BCs are used? Lol. I only see them late game tvt. Z and P have so good counters for them, so making BCs against Z or P is like typing GG.
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Siege tanks got a heavy nerf for zerg, so now they aren't very usable vs toss.
Now terrans have another mech unit they're using vs toss? Nerf it! You silly terrans, you must go MMM every game! Learn your place!
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On May 10 2011 00:18 thoradycus wrote:
GG. Thors are now back to unviable vs toss...
Back to boring MMM, thanks blizz for killing every inovation. Once i thought terrans were those versatile race, where some strange unit combinations can be viable, i didnt realize they are supoused to be MMM race.
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On May 10 2011 00:20 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 00:11 tdt wrote:On May 09 2011 12:59 Mykill wrote:
Fungal growth should not be able to stack casted imo. Thats the only thing I would add to this patch.
I didn't realize FG stacked? IMO the thing missing is for blizz to figure out how to get carriers in the game. It's ridiculous such a venerable unit from SC1 and toss top tier capital ship is never used. Granted BC's/Ultra are not used much either but they are found in games 100x more than carrier. BCs are used? Lol. I only see them late game tvt. Z and P have so good counters for them, so making BCs against Z or P is like typing GG.
I see em all the time. Like I just watched a game yesterday where goody used like 8 vs nani and rolled him.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 10 2011 00:01 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 02:47 Theberlinwall wrote:
As a Terran player i actually have to say i overall really like this patch, however the one thing i really don't like is the the Thor change. I'm in masters(was 3400+, season 1) and i have been tinkering with Mech a lot recently, with some success.
The fact it is that immortals just about own lone tanks, and although 1 on 1 agasint a thor (no cannons), the Thor will win, immortals are still extremely cost efficent vs mech, that being said i actually feel the strike cannons is required when facing an immortal, chargelot, collosi based army.
i actually will be concerned about the future viability of mech if this change makes it past the the ptr and onto the ladder, too me the strike cannon(with no energy) was a good balance between its absolute devastation and the cost effectiveness of the immortals. Now with an energy bar, not only are thors susceptible to feedback damage but this will also render the Thor without cannons, which i feel are imperative.
i really want to see mech become more viable and not less. i really dont want the thor to become the next reaper. That's why they lowered the gas cost of Ghosts so you could go mech and BC's. I think this patch will increase dynamics because Ghost will become so integral. Likewise toss needs HT's to deal with mech rather than just spam immos. Immortals are just terrible vs thor with strike cannon and SCVs on repair. Try it yourself in unit tester. Take only 8 thor vs 16 immos. Strike Cannon first 8 and you will kill off the rest of the immos with normal attack and only lose 3 Thor, you'll find the cost effectiveness you speak of disappears when massing hence the need for feedback since unit designed to counter fails miserably. I think 150 energy is a bit stupid tho to use SC. should be 50-100. If you're going to be vulnerable to feedback they need to give thor a chance to use SC out of the box and often rather than walk around with full energy.
There are now two counters to mech play for Protoss: High Temlar + Robo units and Stargate play.
Previously, if you didn't go stargate, you had to massively outplay the terran to really have a shot.
For the record folks: Thors are still very very good against protoss, you just can't use them as easily for an early timing attack to roll over the Protoss with strike cannons.
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the only thing thors are good against now are mutas :/
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On May 10 2011 00:11 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 12:59 Mykill wrote:
Fungal growth should not be able to stack casted imo. Thats the only thing I would add to this patch.
I didn't realize FG stacked? IMO the thing missing is for blizz to figure out how to get carriers in the game. It's ridiculous such a venerable unit from SC1 and toss top tier capital ship is never used. Granted BC's/Ultra are not used much either but they are found in games 100x more than carrier.
Blizzard Killed Carriers when they killed mech. Carriers abused the fact that Mech has weak anti air. In SC2 we go MMM, marines have always been good against carriers, its only that BW storm and Reaver made them completely unviable in TVP. Also the AI is better in SC2 then in BW. Carriers would mess with the AI and that was part of its effectiveness.
Also Vikings are an issue. Carriers would play on the cliffs where ground units would at times miss due to higher ground mechanic. In SC2 the viking can spot.
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On May 09 2011 12:59 Mykill wrote:
Fungal growth should not be able to stack casted imo. Thats the only thing I would add to this patch.
They don't stack they only reset
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On May 10 2011 00:01 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2011 02:47 Theberlinwall wrote:
As a Terran player i actually have to say i overall really like this patch, however the one thing i really don't like is the the Thor change. I'm in masters(was 3400+, season 1) and i have been tinkering with Mech a lot recently, with some success.
The fact it is that immortals just about own lone tanks, and although 1 on 1 agasint a thor (no cannons), the Thor will win, immortals are still extremely cost efficent vs mech, that being said i actually feel the strike cannons is required when facing an immortal, chargelot, collosi based army.
i actually will be concerned about the future viability of mech if this change makes it past the the ptr and onto the ladder, too me the strike cannon(with no energy) was a good balance between its absolute devastation and the cost effectiveness of the immortals. Now with an energy bar, not only are thors susceptible to feedback damage but this will also render the Thor without cannons, which i feel are imperative.
i really want to see mech become more viable and not less. i really dont want the thor to become the next reaper. That's why they lowered the gas cost of Ghosts so you could go mech and BC's. I think this patch will increase dynamics because Ghost will become so integral. Likewise toss needs HT's to deal with mech rather than just spam immos. Immortals are just terrible vs thor with strike cannon and SCVs on repair. Try it yourself in unit tester. Take only 8 thor vs 16 immos. Strike Cannon first 8 and you will kill off the rest of the immos with normal attack and only lose 3 Thor, you'll find the cost effectiveness you speak of disappears when massing hence the need for feedback since unit designed to counter fails miserably.
I don´t know how you tested this, but in my test the immortals utterly destroyed the Thors in a 2v1 ratio.
First you must ball them up, since that´s the natural state of any army in SC2. If you preposition the Thors in a way so they have superior position it won´t count.
Immortals are much smaller and much faster than Thors, also Strike cannons take 2 full seconds before showing any effect.
You can hardly micro Thors since they block each other and a second row Thor might as well not be there(Thor at least has a length of 2 attack range, maybe even 3).
I just redid the test again. Shiftclicking the Thors from afar, Immos won even with Thors having a concave.
The only way 1 thor wins against 2 Immortals is when some shit stands inbetween and the Immortals hits that.
I personally think they should remove Strike cannons. It´s a terrible upgrade. It was a hardcounter to Ultralisks originally, but now it´s only really worth it against Immortals, pfortresses and other Thors.
After 1 Mech upgrade, the autohit of the Thor does more damage per second than the cannons.
It stuns your enemy for 6 seconds and your Thor for 10.
Since Colossi have range 9 and Ultras are stunimmune, you only get small units reliably into range meaning Strike Cannons overkill nearly always.
How bad is all that together?
[Forgot to mention: Now if they get energy again a 50 mana spell instantly halfkills a Thor again. Time to emo your own Thors again...]
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On May 10 2011 00:24 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 00:01 tdt wrote:On May 09 2011 02:47 Theberlinwall wrote:
As a Terran player i actually have to say i overall really like this patch, however the one thing i really don't like is the the Thor change. I'm in masters(was 3400+, season 1) and i have been tinkering with Mech a lot recently, with some success.
The fact it is that immortals just about own lone tanks, and although 1 on 1 agasint a thor (no cannons), the Thor will win, immortals are still extremely cost efficent vs mech, that being said i actually feel the strike cannons is required when facing an immortal, chargelot, collosi based army.
i actually will be concerned about the future viability of mech if this change makes it past the the ptr and onto the ladder, too me the strike cannon(with no energy) was a good balance between its absolute devastation and the cost effectiveness of the immortals. Now with an energy bar, not only are thors susceptible to feedback damage but this will also render the Thor without cannons, which i feel are imperative.
i really want to see mech become more viable and not less. i really dont want the thor to become the next reaper. That's why they lowered the gas cost of Ghosts so you could go mech and BC's. I think this patch will increase dynamics because Ghost will become so integral. Likewise toss needs HT's to deal with mech rather than just spam immos. Immortals are just terrible vs thor with strike cannon and SCVs on repair. Try it yourself in unit tester. Take only 8 thor vs 16 immos. Strike Cannon first 8 and you will kill off the rest of the immos with normal attack and only lose 3 Thor, you'll find the cost effectiveness you speak of disappears when massing hence the need for feedback since unit designed to counter fails miserably. I think 150 energy is a bit stupid tho to use SC. should be 50-100. If you're going to be vulnerable to feedback they need to give thor a chance to use SC out of the box and often rather than walk around with full energy. There are now two counters to mech play for Protoss: High Temlar + Robo units and Stargate play. Previously, if you didn't go stargate, you had to massively outplay the terran to really have a shot. For the record folks: Thors are still very very good against protoss, you just can't use them as easily for an early timing attack to roll over the Protoss with strike cannons.
I agree. It's amazing how fast blizz (re) patched this tho. You'd think it would take more than 3 thorzain walk throughs to do it.
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On May 10 2011 00:33 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 00:01 tdt wrote:On May 09 2011 02:47 Theberlinwall wrote:
As a Terran player i actually have to say i overall really like this patch, however the one thing i really don't like is the the Thor change. I'm in masters(was 3400+, season 1) and i have been tinkering with Mech a lot recently, with some success.
The fact it is that immortals just about own lone tanks, and although 1 on 1 agasint a thor (no cannons), the Thor will win, immortals are still extremely cost efficent vs mech, that being said i actually feel the strike cannons is required when facing an immortal, chargelot, collosi based army.
i actually will be concerned about the future viability of mech if this change makes it past the the ptr and onto the ladder, too me the strike cannon(with no energy) was a good balance between its absolute devastation and the cost effectiveness of the immortals. Now with an energy bar, not only are thors susceptible to feedback damage but this will also render the Thor without cannons, which i feel are imperative.
i really want to see mech become more viable and not less. i really dont want the thor to become the next reaper. That's why they lowered the gas cost of Ghosts so you could go mech and BC's. I think this patch will increase dynamics because Ghost will become so integral. Likewise toss needs HT's to deal with mech rather than just spam immos. Immortals are just terrible vs thor with strike cannon and SCVs on repair. Try it yourself in unit tester. Take only 8 thor vs 16 immos. Strike Cannon first 8 and you will kill off the rest of the immos with normal attack and only lose 3 Thor, you'll find the cost effectiveness you speak of disappears when massing hence the need for feedback since unit designed to counter fails miserably. I don´t know how you tested this, but in my test the immortals utterly destroyed the Thors in a 2v1 ratio. First you must ball them up, since that´s the natural state of any army in SC2. If you preposition the Thors in a way so they have superior position it won´t count. Immortals are much smaller and much faster than Thors, also Strike cannons take 2 full seconds before showing any effect. You can hardly micro Thors since they block each other and a second row Thor might as well not be there(Thor at least has a length of 2 attack range, maybe even 3). I just redid the test again. Shiftclicking the Thors from afar, Immos won even with Thors having a concave. The only way 1 thor wins against 2 Immortals is when some shit stands inbetween and the Immortals hits that. I personally think they should remove Strike cannons. It´s a terrible upgrade. It was a hardcounter to Ultralisks originally, but now it´s only really worth it against Immortals, pfortresses and other Thors. After 1 Mech upgrade, the autohit of the Thor does more damage per second than the cannons. It stuns your enemy for 6 seconds and your Thor for 10. Since Colossi have range 9 and Ultras are stunimmune, you only get small units reliably into range meaning Strike Cannons overkill nearly always. How bad is all that together?
This may be the solution with the thor. I never think about that but your have right. there is 2 probleme, canon strick kill all protoss can throw to kill the thor and the energy make them a lot weaker. Blizzard should remove it and it will be ok
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United States7483 Posts
On May 10 2011 00:34 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 00:24 Whitewing wrote:On May 10 2011 00:01 tdt wrote:On May 09 2011 02:47 Theberlinwall wrote:
As a Terran player i actually have to say i overall really like this patch, however the one thing i really don't like is the the Thor change. I'm in masters(was 3400+, season 1) and i have been tinkering with Mech a lot recently, with some success.
The fact it is that immortals just about own lone tanks, and although 1 on 1 agasint a thor (no cannons), the Thor will win, immortals are still extremely cost efficent vs mech, that being said i actually feel the strike cannons is required when facing an immortal, chargelot, collosi based army.
i actually will be concerned about the future viability of mech if this change makes it past the the ptr and onto the ladder, too me the strike cannon(with no energy) was a good balance between its absolute devastation and the cost effectiveness of the immortals. Now with an energy bar, not only are thors susceptible to feedback damage but this will also render the Thor without cannons, which i feel are imperative.
i really want to see mech become more viable and not less. i really dont want the thor to become the next reaper. That's why they lowered the gas cost of Ghosts so you could go mech and BC's. I think this patch will increase dynamics because Ghost will become so integral. Likewise toss needs HT's to deal with mech rather than just spam immos. Immortals are just terrible vs thor with strike cannon and SCVs on repair. Try it yourself in unit tester. Take only 8 thor vs 16 immos. Strike Cannon first 8 and you will kill off the rest of the immos with normal attack and only lose 3 Thor, you'll find the cost effectiveness you speak of disappears when massing hence the need for feedback since unit designed to counter fails miserably. I think 150 energy is a bit stupid tho to use SC. should be 50-100. If you're going to be vulnerable to feedback they need to give thor a chance to use SC out of the box and often rather than walk around with full energy. There are now two counters to mech play for Protoss: High Temlar + Robo units and Stargate play. Previously, if you didn't go stargate, you had to massively outplay the terran to really have a shot. For the record folks: Thors are still very very good against protoss, you just can't use them as easily for an early timing attack to roll over the Protoss with strike cannons. I agree. It's amazing how fast blizz (re) patched this tho. You'd think it would take more than 3 thorzain walk throughs to do it.
I think it had a lot more to do with the 1-2 thor rushes that automatically killed any fast expanding protoss because you could strike cannon the one or two immortals out and just mass repair the thors after that.
Also, to the other poster who compared immortals in a 2:1 ratio to thors, that's the wrong ratio. In terms of supply, an immortal is 2/3 of a Thor, not one half. Try a 3:2 ratio of immortals to thors, and give the thors strike cannons.
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EPT
