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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 10 2011 01:24 ArtOfficial wrote:Show nested quote +So I guess we go back to defensive emps on Thors so Templars don´t feedback half their life away.
PvT will probably move to Ghost, Ghost, Scan Observersnipe and Ghost on the one terran side and Gateway/Colossi/Templar on the other side.
If I am not entirely wrong HT now counter every terran unit besides Tanks, Hellions and Ghosts, the Ghost only being viable because you can sneak in invisible when they skimp on observers. You guys keep saying this but it's not like Ghosts don't counter every Protoss unit.
Because they don't counter every unit protoss has, they just weaken them for the other units, so they can finish them that much quicker. That is how I see it. 
But onto the thor change in TvP. I don't think that they are gonna be unusable or bad in early-mid(?) game, but I really doubt we are going to see them in late game though.
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United States7483 Posts
On May 10 2011 01:08 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 01:00 Whitewing wrote:On May 10 2011 00:57 ihavetofartosis wrote:On May 10 2011 00:56 Mali__Slon wrote:On May 10 2011 00:54 Whitewing wrote:On May 10 2011 00:51 no.1 kissy boy wrote:On May 10 2011 00:36 Whitewing wrote:
I think it had a lot more to do with the 1-2 thor rushes that automatically killed any fast expanding protoss because you could strike cannon the one or two immortals out and just mass repair the thors after that. Yeah but aren't there like a million builds that you can do to instantly kill a FE protoss as terran? And same vice versa if the terran doesn't bunker up like a boss. No, there aren't a lot of builds that just straight up kill a FE with no chance of keeping the expo at all. There are one base plays that can punish a FE, but generally they don't straight up auto-win. 3 rax shuts it down real easy. Kind of like how 4gate destroys terran FE? I don't see what your point is. Just as you say, yeah, they can kill FE, but they don't auto-win. Decent forcefields can hold the bio at bay long enough to get the necessary units up, you can hold a 3 gate expand against a 3 rax. You can hold a fast CC as terran against a 4 gate too. It's not auto-win though, like the 1-2 thor rush is, since barracks units don't negate forcefields. 3 gate exp is in no way FE. Secondly if terran kills your FE, you will be so far behind == loss. I still havent lost a game where i killed toss FE, I mean you are free to camp and to get your own expansion going.
The two thor rush straight up killed 3 gate expands too, pretty much guaranteed. Hell, one gate expand can be safe against a 3 rax if you control well and only do it on certain maps.
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So according to GOM this patch is going live Thursday?
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Great info Jimbo, thx for sharing. I like very much this new patch.... As far as I don't think it will damage 4gating very much (20 seconds later push with more units....whatever) other changes are very acceptable and desired. I'm very keen to checking out ghosts as more of late game option for terran - terran is really hard in late game now.
Still I think protoss ability to warp stuff everywhere and collossus power are thing to correct a little bit, but we will see what future brings 
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On May 10 2011 01:47 War Horse wrote:
So according to GOM this patch is going live Thursday?
Yep....in Korea, so it should be sooner in US and somewhere after Thursday in Europe.
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On May 10 2011 01:46 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 01:08 Mali__Slon wrote:On May 10 2011 01:00 Whitewing wrote:On May 10 2011 00:57 ihavetofartosis wrote:On May 10 2011 00:56 Mali__Slon wrote:On May 10 2011 00:54 Whitewing wrote:On May 10 2011 00:51 no.1 kissy boy wrote:On May 10 2011 00:36 Whitewing wrote:
I think it had a lot more to do with the 1-2 thor rushes that automatically killed any fast expanding protoss because you could strike cannon the one or two immortals out and just mass repair the thors after that. Yeah but aren't there like a million builds that you can do to instantly kill a FE protoss as terran? And same vice versa if the terran doesn't bunker up like a boss. No, there aren't a lot of builds that just straight up kill a FE with no chance of keeping the expo at all. There are one base plays that can punish a FE, but generally they don't straight up auto-win. 3 rax shuts it down real easy. Kind of like how 4gate destroys terran FE? I don't see what your point is. Just as you say, yeah, they can kill FE, but they don't auto-win. Decent forcefields can hold the bio at bay long enough to get the necessary units up, you can hold a 3 gate expand against a 3 rax. You can hold a fast CC as terran against a 4 gate too. It's not auto-win though, like the 1-2 thor rush is, since barracks units don't negate forcefields. 3 gate exp is in no way FE. Secondly if terran kills your FE, you will be so far behind == loss. I still havent lost a game where i killed toss FE, I mean you are free to camp and to get your own expansion going. The two thor rush straight up killed 3 gate expands too, pretty much guaranteed. Hell, one gate expand can be safe against a 3 rax if you control well and only do it on certain maps.
i will ignore the fact 2 thor rush was designed to kill FE from toss the same way 3gate immortal or 3gate VR is most likely going to kil terrans FE
yet that was possibly the worst change they could make, instead of delaying strike cannon upgrade or even removing it (think it would be better than its now)
they decide to revert the changes they did in beta making tvp even more bio centric and less diverse.
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On May 10 2011 01:55 ShaQAttacK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 01:47 War Horse wrote:
So according to GOM this patch is going live Thursday? Yep....in Korea, so it should be sooner in US and somewhere after Thursday in Europe.
Doesn't Blizz usually release the patch for the US something like a day after Korea?
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On May 10 2011 01:46 Whitewing wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 10 2011 01:08 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 01:00 Whitewing wrote:On May 10 2011 00:57 ihavetofartosis wrote:On May 10 2011 00:56 Mali__Slon wrote:On May 10 2011 00:54 Whitewing wrote:On May 10 2011 00:51 no.1 kissy boy wrote:On May 10 2011 00:36 Whitewing wrote:
I think it had a lot more to do with the 1-2 thor rushes that automatically killed any fast expanding protoss because you could strike cannon the one or two immortals out and just mass repair the thors after that. Yeah but aren't there like a million builds that you can do to instantly kill a FE protoss as terran? And same vice versa if the terran doesn't bunker up like a boss. No, there aren't a lot of builds that just straight up kill a FE with no chance of keeping the expo at all. There are one base plays that can punish a FE, but generally they don't straight up auto-win. 3 rax shuts it down real easy. Kind of like how 4gate destroys terran FE? I don't see what your point is. Just as you say, yeah, they can kill FE, but they don't auto-win. Decent forcefields can hold the bio at bay long enough to get the necessary units up, you can hold a 3 gate expand against a 3 rax. You can hold a fast CC as terran against a 4 gate too. It's not auto-win though, like the 1-2 thor rush is, since barracks units don't negate forcefields. 3 gate exp is in no way FE. Secondly if terran kills your FE, you will be so far behind == loss. I still havent lost a game where i killed toss FE, I mean you are free to camp and to get your own expansion going. The two thor rush straight up killed 3 gate expands too, pretty much guaranteed. Hell, one gate expand can be safe against a 3 rax if you control well and only do it on certain maps.
I'm just gonna echo this, the two thor rush was virtually impossible to beat with a 3 gate expand. The closest I've come was throwing down 3 extra gateways immediately after I saw the thor - I've always lost more miserably if I went for the robo, since by the time you get out one or even two immos they're absolutely done for, and by the time you get out another the CD had finished on the Thor's strike cannon.
The 1 gate FE needs distance between camps to do much of anything.
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"Thors are awfully strong vs. protoss... if you get upgrades for them the only things that deal with them are carriers, voids, and chargelots. Fighting them with immortals is a very dicey thing. Obviously they are too hard to fight head-on, so Blizzard needs to patch this to make them weaker."
"Colossi are awfully strong vs. zerg... if you get upgrades for them the only things that deal with them are corruptors and mutas. Fighting them with ultras is a very dicey thing. Obviously they are too hard to fight head-on, so zerg players just need to learn to play better and learn to not a-move into deathballs."
(Thor move speed: 1.875. Colossus move speed: 2.25, and can move over cliffs and units.)
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On May 10 2011 01:57 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 01:55 ShaQAttacK wrote:On May 10 2011 01:47 War Horse wrote:
So according to GOM this patch is going live Thursday? Yep....in Korea, so it should be sooner in US and somewhere after Thursday in Europe. Doesn't Blizz usually release the patch for the US something like a day after Korea?
Blizzards patch days have always been Tuesday for US and Wednesday for EU.
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The only way 1 thor wins against 2 Immortals is when some shit stands inbetween and the Immortals hits that.
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After 1 Mech upgrade, the autohit of the Thor does more damage per second than the cannons.
It stuns your enemy for 6 seconds and your Thor for 10.
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How bad is all that together?
[Forgot to mention: Now if they get energy again a 50 mana spell instantly halfkills a Thor again. Time to emo your own Thors again...]
Here are some questions:
Do you really think a single thor should beat two immortals in an a-move battle?
(Considering that two immortals cost a lot more in every respect and are only effective vs a very specific enemy while a thor can be repaired endlessly during battle and is very effective against almost anything)
Do you realize one use of 250mm strike cannons kills an immortal without him being able to retaliate? Do you really think this ability is weak?
(If what you said was true and your thor was stunned I would see your point, but in fact he is channeling an ability, doing high damage all the time, while the target is actually stunned, unable to do anything)
Did you notice the cost reduction on ghosts this patch?
(I don't think you really have to worry about TvP being harder now)
You should not complain just for the sake of complaining...
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Zerg have units that can effectively harass and quickly respond to small harasses on far flung expansions. That's the difference.
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On May 10 2011 00:50 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 00:48 Antisocialmunky wrote:On May 10 2011 00:23 tdt wrote:On May 10 2011 00:20 Mali__Slon wrote:On May 10 2011 00:11 tdt wrote:On May 09 2011 12:59 Mykill wrote:
Fungal growth should not be able to stack casted imo. Thats the only thing I would add to this patch.
I didn't realize FG stacked? IMO the thing missing is for blizz to figure out how to get carriers in the game. It's ridiculous such a venerable unit from SC1 and toss top tier capital ship is never used. Granted BC's/Ultra are not used much either but they are found in games 100x more than carrier. BCs are used? Lol. I only see them late game tvt. Z and P have so good counters for them, so making BCs against Z or P is like typing GG. I see em all the time. Like I just watched a game yesterday where goody used like 8 vs nani and rolled him. BCs are pretty good vs Protoss if you can get the at the right time  Totally agree, T's totally dominate ladder with them. Maybe the next patch will fix this issue.
i havent seen much bcs in my games but when i do theres really nothing you can throw at them and come out on the top but like we see from this patch blizzard really listens to the community we just need to bring there attention to BCs and im sure they will adress it
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Thorzain's build has a lot of trouble with early pressure. I use his strat a lot in TvP and I'm nearly certain that it can't hold off a 4 gate. It has about 5-6 marines in a bunker, a tank, and a hellion by the normal 4 gate timing. Obviously toss can't 4 gate every game, but it does have its weaknesses.
Also when I use this strat I notice that toss seems to be way too stuck in their deathball mentality, so they keep trying different unit comps and ramming them head on into the thor ball. This just isn't going to work. The upgraded thor blueflame hellion ball with a raven and some vikings will not die to a comparably sized toss death ball of gateway units plus immo or collo. What toss can do is exploit the immobility of the ball. Do you realize that after I have my third how difficult it is defend from warp prism harass? If you warp in some stalkers into my main when my thors are at the gold on xel-naga carverns, what am I to do? Have my thors slowly lumber their way back to my main?
You toss's are right there isn't really any unit comp that beats this comp(except for 1 carrier but that's obviously for after the initial push), but there are strategies that beat it.
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On May 10 2011 03:52 JaceTMS wrote:
Thorzain's build has a lot of trouble with early pressure. I use his strat a lot in TvP and I'm nearly certain that it can't hold off a 4 gate. It has about 5-6 marines in a bunker, a tank, and a hellion by the normal 4 gate timing. Obviously toss can't 4 gate every game, but it does have its weaknesses.
Also when I use this strat I notice that toss seems to be way too stuck in their deathball mentality, so they keep trying different unit comps and ramming them head on into the thor ball. This just isn't going to work. The upgraded thor blueflame hellion ball with a raven and some vikings will not die to a comparably sized toss death ball of gateway units plus immo or collo. What toss can do is exploit the immobility of the ball. Do you realize that after I have my third how difficult it is defend from warp prism harass? If you warp in some stalkers into my main when my thors are at the gold on xel-naga carverns, what am I to do? Have my thors slowly lumber their way back to my main?
You toss's are right there isn't really any unit comp that beats this comp(except for 1 carrier but that's obviously for after the initial push), but there are strategies that beat it.
The thing is that Protoss units work best when in conjunction with other units to overcome their weaknesses.
If you warp in zealots from a prism you can just run your scvs and the zealots will not catch them, if you warp in stalkers you can a move your scvs and unless you micro really well you won't kill enough of them before stimmed marines show up and rip the stalkers apart.
And lets not get started on immortal or Colossus drops.
We could go DTs, but this build has a Raven incorporated into it most of the time, and getting DTs plus robo plus a big enough gateway army to not plain die before the 10 minute mark is almost impossible.
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On May 10 2011 03:52 JaceTMS wrote:
Also when I use this strat I notice that toss seems to be way too stuck in their deathball mentality, so they keep trying different unit comps and ramming them head on into the thor ball. This just isn't going to work. The upgraded thor blueflame hellion ball with a raven and some vikings will not die to a comparably sized toss death ball of gateway units plus immo or collo. What toss can do is exploit the immobility of the ball. Do you realize that after I have my third how difficult it is defend from warp prism harass? If you warp in some stalkers into my main when my thors are at the gold on xel-naga carverns, what am I to do? Have my thors slowly lumber their way back to my main?
You could probably just base trade while lifting as much as possible and have an 80% win rate in that situation, especially if you have a planetary at the 3rd.
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On May 10 2011 02:21 Yeld wrote:Show nested quote +The only way 1 thor wins against 2 Immortals is when some shit stands inbetween and the Immortals hits that.
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After 1 Mech upgrade, the autohit of the Thor does more damage per second than the cannons.
It stuns your enemy for 6 seconds and your Thor for 10.
...
How bad is all that together?
[Forgot to mention: Now if they get energy again a 50 mana spell instantly halfkills a Thor again. Time to emo your own Thors again...] Here are some questions: Do you really think a single thor should beat two immortals in an a-move battle? (Considering that two immortals cost a lot more in every respect and are only effective vs a very specific enemy while a thor can be repaired endlessly during battle and is very effective against almost anything) Do you realize one use of 250mm strike cannons kills an immortal without him being able to retaliate? Do you really think this ability is weak? (If what you said was true and your thor was stunned I would see your point, but in fact he is channeling an ability, doing high damage all the time, while the target is actually stunned, unable to do anything)
Did you notice the cost reduction on ghosts this patch? (I don't think you really have to worry about TvP being harder now) You should not complain just for the sake of complaining...
You have so missed the point. Nerfing Thor doesnt mean that terran doesnt have options to fight toss, its just that Blizzard is forcing us to use bio ball.
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Completely confused at the Thor energy change. Strike cannons failed to be effective vs Immortals except in small numbers. Try mass Thor vs mass Immortal and Immortals become much more cost effective.
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On May 10 2011 05:33 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 02:21 Yeld wrote:The only way 1 thor wins against 2 Immortals is when some shit stands inbetween and the Immortals hits that.
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After 1 Mech upgrade, the autohit of the Thor does more damage per second than the cannons.
It stuns your enemy for 6 seconds and your Thor for 10.
...
How bad is all that together?
[Forgot to mention: Now if they get energy again a 50 mana spell instantly halfkills a Thor again. Time to emo your own Thors again...] Here are some questions: Do you really think a single thor should beat two immortals in an a-move battle? (Considering that two immortals cost a lot more in every respect and are only effective vs a very specific enemy while a thor can be repaired endlessly during battle and is very effective against almost anything) Do you realize one use of 250mm strike cannons kills an immortal without him being able to retaliate? Do you really think this ability is weak? (If what you said was true and your thor was stunned I would see your point, but in fact he is channeling an ability, doing high damage all the time, while the target is actually stunned, unable to do anything)
Did you notice the cost reduction on ghosts this patch? (I don't think you really have to worry about TvP being harder now) You should not complain just for the sake of complaining... You have so missed the point. Nerfing Thor doesnt mean that terran doesnt have options to fight toss, its just that Blizzard is forcing us to use bio ball.
So you're saying that thors are useless vs protoss without instantly available strike cannons? Also, the Air-centric build TLO and jinro have used in the GSL and copenhagen looks like another style that could have some major potential, and with ghosts costing less gas, they might also be able to be worked into that mix even more effectively.
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On May 10 2011 05:33 Mali__Slon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 02:21 Yeld wrote:The only way 1 thor wins against 2 Immortals is when some shit stands inbetween and the Immortals hits that.
...
After 1 Mech upgrade, the autohit of the Thor does more damage per second than the cannons.
It stuns your enemy for 6 seconds and your Thor for 10.
...
How bad is all that together?
[Forgot to mention: Now if they get energy again a 50 mana spell instantly halfkills a Thor again. Time to emo your own Thors again...] Here are some questions: Do you really think a single thor should beat two immortals in an a-move battle? (Considering that two immortals cost a lot more in every respect and are only effective vs a very specific enemy while a thor can be repaired endlessly during battle and is very effective against almost anything) Do you realize one use of 250mm strike cannons kills an immortal without him being able to retaliate? Do you really think this ability is weak? (If what you said was true and your thor was stunned I would see your point, but in fact he is channeling an ability, doing high damage all the time, while the target is actually stunned, unable to do anything)
Did you notice the cost reduction on ghosts this patch? (I don't think you really have to worry about TvP being harder now) You should not complain just for the sake of complaining... You have so missed the point. Nerfing Thor doesnt mean that terran doesnt have options to fight toss, its just that Blizzard is forcing us to use bio ball.
is forcing YOU to use bio.
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EPT
