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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 10 2011 02:21 Yeld wrote:Show nested quote +The only way 1 thor wins against 2 Immortals is when some shit stands inbetween and the Immortals hits that.
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After 1 Mech upgrade, the autohit of the Thor does more damage per second than the cannons.
It stuns your enemy for 6 seconds and your Thor for 10.
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How bad is all that together?
[Forgot to mention: Now if they get energy again a 50 mana spell instantly halfkills a Thor again. Time to emo your own Thors again...] Here are some questions: Do you really think a single thor should beat two immortals in an a-move battle? (Considering that two immortals cost a lot more in every respect and are only effective vs a very specific enemy while a thor can be repaired endlessly during battle and is very effective against almost anything) Do you realize one use of 250mm strike cannons kills an immortal without him being able to retaliate? Do you really think this ability is weak? (If what you said was true and your thor was stunned I would see your point, but in fact he is channeling an ability, doing high damage all the time, while the target is actually stunned, unable to do anything)
Did you notice the cost reduction on ghosts this patch? (I don't think you really have to worry about TvP being harder now) You should not complain just for the sake of complaining...
To my defense, I do not know of the 1-2 Thor rush specifically.
BUT what does that have to do with Thors having energy again? I do not speak of some weird overpowered timing attack.
I propose *removing* strike cannons. Simply because they are only viable against immortals and other Thors. If you think Thors are the sweetest thing ever go and abuse them.
On another note, Ghost vs HT:
Feedback compared to snipe:
Snipe only works against 3 units: Zealot, High Templar, Dark templar
Feedback works against any techunit: Ghost, Medivac, Banshee, Raven, Battlecruiser, Thor(again)
Snipe does 45 damage after a 0.2 or so cast.
Feedback does up to 200 damage instantly, killing every unit besides BC and Thor.
EMP removes all (100)shields from every Protossunit besides colossi archons and carriers.
Shields are at most half the HP any protoss unit has(except for Archons).
Psi storm does 80 damage to any unit over a small time. Psi storm near instantly kills Marines(55hp). Psi storm is very effective against: Marauders, Vikings(stack), and sieged up tanks.
Ghosts are build and have to walk to battle.
HT are warped in where there is pylon energy.
Whoever says HT vs Ghost is an even battle is a liar.
Terrans only need Ghosts to emp immortals and High templar.
Protoss used HTs to instakill drops and still use HTs to storm or feedback anything else.
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On May 10 2011 08:23 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 02:21 Yeld wrote:The only way 1 thor wins against 2 Immortals is when some shit stands inbetween and the Immortals hits that.
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After 1 Mech upgrade, the autohit of the Thor does more damage per second than the cannons.
It stuns your enemy for 6 seconds and your Thor for 10.
...
How bad is all that together?
[Forgot to mention: Now if they get energy again a 50 mana spell instantly halfkills a Thor again. Time to emo your own Thors again...] Here are some questions: Do you really think a single thor should beat two immortals in an a-move battle? (Considering that two immortals cost a lot more in every respect and are only effective vs a very specific enemy while a thor can be repaired endlessly during battle and is very effective against almost anything) Do you realize one use of 250mm strike cannons kills an immortal without him being able to retaliate? Do you really think this ability is weak? (If what you said was true and your thor was stunned I would see your point, but in fact he is channeling an ability, doing high damage all the time, while the target is actually stunned, unable to do anything)
Did you notice the cost reduction on ghosts this patch? (I don't think you really have to worry about TvP being harder now) You should not complain just for the sake of complaining... Whoever says HT vs Ghost is an even battle is a liar. Terrans only need Ghosts to emp immortals and High templar. Protoss used HTs to instakill drops and still use HTs to storm or feedback anything else.
Psi Storm also takes 200/200 to research. In addition, Academy doesn't cost as much as Templar Archives does.
In a straight up 1/1, Ghosts take on HTs easily. More range, and AoE spell that drains energy+shields? Definitely better than shorter range where you actually have to aim for the Ghost.
Its definitely an even fight, lol.
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they just don't how to reinforce thor strike cannons usage lol
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Why are Terrans complaining about using Bio? It's not like it's weak.
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Psi Storm also takes 200/200 to research. In addition
It's only one time investment. Ghost also needs to research cloak.
The more interesting question is why FG doesn't need any research at all?...
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On May 10 2011 08:33 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 08:23 Mataza wrote:On May 10 2011 02:21 Yeld wrote:The only way 1 thor wins against 2 Immortals is when some shit stands inbetween and the Immortals hits that.
...
After 1 Mech upgrade, the autohit of the Thor does more damage per second than the cannons.
It stuns your enemy for 6 seconds and your Thor for 10.
...
How bad is all that together?
[Forgot to mention: Now if they get energy again a 50 mana spell instantly halfkills a Thor again. Time to emo your own Thors again...] Here are some questions: Do you really think a single thor should beat two immortals in an a-move battle? (Considering that two immortals cost a lot more in every respect and are only effective vs a very specific enemy while a thor can be repaired endlessly during battle and is very effective against almost anything) Do you realize one use of 250mm strike cannons kills an immortal without him being able to retaliate? Do you really think this ability is weak? (If what you said was true and your thor was stunned I would see your point, but in fact he is channeling an ability, doing high damage all the time, while the target is actually stunned, unable to do anything)
Did you notice the cost reduction on ghosts this patch? (I don't think you really have to worry about TvP being harder now) You should not complain just for the sake of complaining... Whoever says HT vs Ghost is an even battle is a liar. Terrans only need Ghosts to emp immortals and High templar. Protoss used HTs to instakill drops and still use HTs to storm or feedback anything else. Psi Storm also takes 200/200 to research. In addition, Academy doesn't cost as much as Templar Archives does. In a straight up 1/1, Ghosts take on HTs easily. More range, and AoE spell that drains energy+shields? Definitely better than shorter range where you actually have to aim for the Ghost. Its definitely an even fight, lol.
There never is a 1v1 fight between Ghosts and HT.
Also my point is that Terrans don´t want Ghosts of their own accord.
Terrans only build Ghosts to counter HTs and in rare circumstances drain Immo shields.
And even then HT have nearly an even chance.
In a normal TvP
Protoss has gateway units an observer etc. and HTs.
Terran have MMM, Vikings etc. and Ghosts.
Ghosts must try to find HTs and EMP them. Removing shields is a little bonus.
HTs simply storm everything that has no energybar. Instakilling units with too much energy is a bonus.
When the fight begins many of protoss units will already have shield damage. So in effect you remove 50-80 shield on gateway units at best, but probably more like 20-40.
People acting like EMP kills armies just enrage me. It´s stimpacks that kills armies.
[Also using Bio gets old real quick. Think of it like 4gate every game. It brings you up there, but getting tech is not worth it most of the time. Tanks, Hellion, now Thors again. Banshees are a good opening but get weaker the longer the game goes.]
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On May 10 2011 08:40 ReseT wrote:
Why are Terrans complaining about using Bio? It's not like it's weak.
That's true, but it's still the most un-needed change ever. Not even proven to be that good at high level. Don't even say one game changes things.
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On May 10 2011 08:40 Jimbo77 wrote:It's only one time investment. Ghost also needs to research cloak. The more interesting question is why FG doesn't need any research at all?...
It used to be that because EMP didn't, and it wasn't that strong before idk about now
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On May 10 2011 08:40 Jimbo77 wrote:It's only one time investment. Ghost also needs to research cloak. The more interesting question is why FG doesn't need any research at all?...
Ghosts don't even need cloak unless Terran wants to do fancy nuke play/the game goes on for a long period of time. Most Terrans I play against that get Ghost rarely get cloaking for them.
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On May 10 2011 08:40 Jimbo77 wrote:It's only one time investment. Ghost also needs to research cloak. The more interesting question is why FG doesn't need any research at all?...
Templars without storm can make archons and can feedback.
Ghosts without cloak can still emp and can attack (bonus vs light), and snipe which actually is very effective.
Infestors without FG can only make infested terrans and when they're out of energy they can't do anything.
QFT.
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You also forgot to mention that EMP is instant cast, reveals invisible units, 10 range, has a bigger radius than Psi-Storm, can be cast in rapid succession from a single Ghost, attained at a lower tier than HT, does not need researching and you can be used on your own units to mitigate the effects of Feedback
Psi storm near instantly kills Marines(55hp).
Takes 3 seconds to kill Marines
HT are warped in where there is pylon energy.
Ghosts are build and have to walk to battle
High Templars also move as fast as a Thor
Terrans only need Ghosts to emp immortals and High templar.
What the hell, when is it ever a bad thing to have a Ghost in your army? You not only instantly remove shields from Protoss units but you also drain energy from units like Sentries which almost always ball up in the middle of the Protoss army.
Though I don't even understand why you are making the comparison. It is stupid. You should be looking at the unit with respect to their own race, not other units of opposing races. It is like DT to a Banshee, sure they are similarities, but a DT with respect to Protoss is quite different than a Banshee with respect to Terran. Comparing the two side by side makes no sense because both have a different impact on the game given the race that they are being used by.
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On May 10 2011 08:49 Cloud9157 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2011 08:40 Jimbo77 wrote:Psi Storm also takes 200/200 to research. In addition It's only one time investment. Ghost also needs to research cloak. The more interesting question is why FG doesn't need any research at all?... Ghosts don't even need cloak unless Terran wants to do fancy nuke play/the game goes on for a long period of time. Most Terrans I play against that get Ghost rarely get cloaking for them.
They probably don´t get cloak because it takes longer than Psi storm and can´t be chrono´d. Also overinvesting into Ghosts is a surefire way to lose to colossi/some other tech because Ghosts only works vs HT. Medivacs and Vikings cost 75-100 gas.
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On May 10 2011 08:23 Mataza wrote:
Whoever says HT vs Ghost is an even battle is a liar.
Terrans only need Ghosts to emp immortals and High templar.
Protoss used HTs to instakill drops and still use HTs to storm or feedback anything else.
Seriously, ghosts are T1 and require no research whilst HT's are T3, require research and are outranged by EMP. If anything ghosts > templar and the reduction in ghost gas cost is just another way of limiting HT's in TvP after the khaydarin removal.
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Infestors without FG can only make infested terrans and when they're out of energy they can't do anything.
It's not the reason.
By the way, inf terrans from 4-5 infestors are damn good kill all your workers within few seconds, especially considering they can be spawn from borrow state.
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On May 10 2011 08:54 Dommk wrote:You also forgot to mention that EMP is instant cast, reveals invisible units, 10 range, has a bigger radius than Psi-Storm, can be cast in rapid succession from a single Ghost, attained at a lower tier than HT, does not need researching and you can be used on your own units to mitigate the effects of Feedback + Show Spoiler +Psi storm near instantly kills Marines(55hp). Takes 3 seconds to kill Marines HT are warped in where there is pylon energy.
Ghosts are build and have to walk to battle High Templars also move as fast as a Thor Terrans only need Ghosts to emp immortals and High templar. What the hell, when is it ever a bad thing to have a Ghost in your army? You not only instantly remove shields from Protoss units but you also drain energy from units like Sentries which almost always ball up in the middle of the Protoss army. Though I don't even understand why you are making the comparison. It is stupid. You should be looking at the unit with respect to their own race, not other units of opposing races. It is like DT to a Banshee, sure they are similarities, but a DT with respect to Protoss is quite different than a Banshee with respect to Terran. Comparing the two side by side makes no sense because both have a different impact on the game given the race that they are being used by.
First off the area of emp and psi storm is nearly the same.
If you hit into a ball of probes Psi storm hits ~22 and emp hits ~28
Cast range is same.
If you read patchnotes you will notice that emp could not be cast in rapid succession on the same area unlike psistorm.
If 2 units of different races ever act the same way, it´s Ghosts and HTs. They are casters with a mana removal ability and a damaging aoe spell.
And my entire point is having a Ghost in your army is good, but it isn´t as versatile as having a HT. If Protoss go for Stargate centered, Colossi centered or Adelscott gateway style your Ghosts ain´t gonna do shit.
And they use up the gas you need for the appropriate units you should have build. Vikings, Medivacs or maybe even Mech/Banshee.
But now that they cost less gas I am satisfied.
Now onwards to making Carriers as viable as Battlecruisers or Broods.
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@Mataza
EMP Radius = 2. Psi Storm Radius = 1.5. Therefore EMP has a 78% larger AREA than Storm. If 78% difference is "nearly the same" to you then you've got problems.
Cast range for EMP is 10, Storm is 9.
There's no cooldown for casting EMP, therefore you can cast in rapid succession. Psi Storm has a 2 second cooldown between casts. And no - Psi Storm does not and has not ever stacked.
So if you please, stop spreading misinformation. There are too many deluded people who'll eat that up to support their ill informed beliefs on balance. Before stating numbers in the future, check reputable places like Liquidpedia or sc2pod.com/game/ for unit statistics. Perhaps then you'll understand the facts of the game and realize what people are talking about.
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And my entire point is having a Ghost in your army is good, but it isn´t as versatile as having a HT.
That is so absurd, the potential damage from a single Ghost is significantly higher than that of a single Templar. IT is much easier to EMP a Toss army than stroming a Terran, just due to the speed of the Templar you need to set up or be in position, half the time with Ghosts they sit in your army and you EMP as you engage (ala Happy vs Socke)
That is not counting things like draining sentry energy and EMPing Colossus to snipe with your Viking.
And my entire point is having a Ghost in your army is good, but it isn´t as versatile as having a HT. If Protoss go for Stargate centered, Colossi centered or Adelscott gateway style your Ghosts ain´t gonna do shit.
Players like Kas, Thorzain and Happy start adding ghosts long before Templar tech is even out. I can't even fathom why in the mid game you wouldn't even have a single ghost in your army, at that point the damage from an EMP greatly surpasses what you would get from the equivalent damage units.
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As much as I don't really want to get involved in this conversation, there is one additional thing that needs to be noted about ghosts:
In ANY situation in TvP, a ghost EMP will cause hundreds of damage to the protoss ball, thanks to the shields being nuked. This can have a substantially more harmful effect on the protoss army than even losing the ability to storm, especially since storm is avoidable with optimal micro. Having marauders and vikings (or even tank/thor/hellion/banshee) have to do say 800 less damage to the protoss army is between 40 and 80 marauder shots... which is a lot. People saying that taking the shields off the protoss army is a "bonus" seem to not have explored the potential of that ability.
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On May 10 2011 11:59 KnightOfNi wrote:
As much as I don't really want to get involved in this conversation, there is one additional thing that needs to be noted about ghosts:
In ANY situation in TvP, a ghost EMP will cause hundreds of damage to the protoss ball, thanks to the shields being nuked. This can have a substantially more harmful effect on the protoss army than even losing the ability to storm, especially since storm is avoidable with optimal micro. Having marauders and vikings (or even tank/thor/hellion/banshee) have to do say 800 less damage to the protoss army is between 40 and 80 marauder shots... which is a lot. People saying that taking the shields off the protoss army is a "bonus" seem to not have explored the potential of that ability.
Shields regenerate quite fast. HP, taken off by storm, never.
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EPT
