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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 11:15 EnderPR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:12 DooMDash wrote:On May 05 2011 10:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:Hmm I don't think that's true. Storm is the scariest thing ever, and actually kills our units. EMP deals 100 damage, essentially, to any unit with at least 100 shields, and simply removes the shields of any other unit. Unlike Storm, it cannot be dodged, and its range is longer than Storm. This is in addition to wiping out 100 energy from any caster caught in the blast. In its effectiveness at dealing terrific aoe damage, and neutralizing casters, against Toss EMP actually combines some of the very best aspects of feedback and psi storm. And Ghosts are substantially cheaper in terms of gas than HTs, which means you can much more easily use them in combination with other higher tech units. Storm is much much much worse. EMP have a peak damage and as many as you have afterwards are useless. You can dodge storm, kinda.. but you can also storm in the direction of the dodging. Storm is really just way better than EMP even if you can dodge it. I'm not saying I want a storm nerf, but to get back on topic the Thor nerf is retarded. I would argue that EMP is stronger. If Toss army gets EMPed at high supply then T can just attack and crush it. Just watch some of MVPs games and some TSL games to see that happen. They are hard to dodge and do significant damage to any gateway army as well. They are also getting cheaper in the next patch. Storm is strong, but with the KA nerf if you miss some then its bad. Not only that, but Marauders are pretty bulky and Medivacs heal pretty quick if you dont just sit in the middle of the storm for its duration. This doesn't even get into how EMP could create a strong timing push if toss doesnt split sentries
There really is no argument to be had. Storm is stronger then EMP. That's it. Storm does way more damage in a larger area against all races and all units. You can't really run away if you have FF.
Sure storm takes a while to get, but once it's in play (PvT) it's a epic battle to emp the templars before they unleash total devastation. <3
EDIT: Thor's shouldn't have energy. Templars can then feedback: Medivacs, ghosts, thors, ravens, banshees and battlecruisers. That's ½ of the terran army. (6 out of 12 units, or 6 out of 7 high tech units). Remember, it doesn't just do dmg, it takes away from their battle potential too
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Another vote against this change to Thors
Most games (bronze, silver, gold) don't even USE strike canon in 1 out of 5 matches that we build thors, and now we're going to see any hero thors (survivors with half health and full energy) vaporized to feedback? how confusing is that. We mech (without strike canon) because bio is too easily vaporized to storms if you don't have a 120 APM, and now those VERY SAME protoss units are going to kill our thor backbone?
If the problem was strike canon was OP then decrease its damage 20% or increase its cool down or take the damn thing away. But this nerf is much worse.
Can't help but feel someone is having a laugh.
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On May 05 2011 02:26 Jojo131 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 02:23 Zaixer wrote:
why the f must blizzard try to destroy every single terran strategy involving anything else than bio and tanks. It really feels like it. Just watch, people will start utilizing mass Banshees with Raven/Viking support like we've seen a few Terrans already doing then once it gets too popular: "HEY, WHAT YOU GUYS DOING PLAYING WITH STARPORTS? WHY ARENT YOU MAKING MARAUDERS?!"-- Blizzard <3
And if toss makes carriers + pheonix, 'HEY GUYS, WHAT ARE YOU GUYS DOING NOT MAKING COLOSSUS?"
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On May 05 2011 11:21 nyc863 wrote:
Another vote against this change to Thors
Most games (bronze, silver, gold) don't even USE strike canon in 1 out of 5 matches that we build thors, and now we're going to see any hero thors (survivors with half health and full energy) vaporized to feedback? how confusing is that. We mech (without strike canon) because bio is too easily vaporized to storms if you don't have a 120 APM, and now those VERY SAME protoss units are going to kill our thor backbone?
If the problem was strike canon was OP then decrease its damage 20% or increase its cool down or take the damn thing away. But this nerf is much worse.
Can't help but feel someone is having a laugh.
Yep, i do.
Nobody cares for low level balance, high level is everything that matters.
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On May 05 2011 11:18 Ritos753 wrote:
This broke thors just when they were starting to see some use
Yeah, this is odd to me. I personally hadn't seen anything to make me think that Thors TvP are too much of a problem (the only game that comes to mind is Thorzain vs. Tyler but Tyler responded somewhat poorly). I find it weird that they're addressing something before it becomes a real issue, it generally requires a lot more complaining and stuff to get things changed. Would like to know Blizzard's rationale behind this change.
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On May 05 2011 11:08 dump wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 10:20 DreamSailor wrote:On May 05 2011 10:15 dump wrote:
They seriously need to stop dancing around the HT/colossus problem and start addressing it head on.
-Nerf colossus. I'm tired of having to build colossus every game. Make it do full damage only to light units.
-Buff phoenix or templar. Either give us back khaydarin with a 15mp increase instead of 25, or make phoenix do full damage to all units.
-Make zealot charge cost less than the current 200/200. Neither zealots nor zealot charge aren't worth as much as zealots or leg speed were in Brood War; it's extremely lazy design to keep their upgrade cost the same. We can't even make it up to templar tech without making a detour to colossus tech first; there's just way too much of a timing window.
As protoss I'm seriously sick of playing colossus, and neither the thor nerf nor the archon buf help at all when the whole templar tech path leaves such a ridiculously long vulnerability window. Making Phoenix do 10x2 to everything would be incredibly broken. They would start to beat Corruptors, they would beat Broodlords, they would be Vikings much worse then they already do, Voidrays would be even more of a joke against them. Not to mention they would actually be cost effective against Capital Ships, and the phoenix lift would be damn broken. Phoenix are in a good spot right now, they are strong, but not brokenly strong. I don't get why every time I mention that phoenix should be buffed, people ignore the fact that I say colossus should be nerfed. You won't need corruptors or vikings as much if you're not fighting colossus.
Its irrelevant. If Colossus get nerfed, the Deathball while still be a very viable strategy. Buffing Phoenixes in the way you suggest would just change the Colossus/Voidray deathball into a Colossus/Phoenix deathball, that would with your suggested changes, be virtually unstoppable.
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On May 05 2011 11:30 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:18 Ritos753 wrote:
This broke thors just when they were starting to see some use
Yeah, this is odd to me. I personally hadn't seen anything to make me think that Thors TvP are too much of a problem (the only game that comes to mind is Thorzain vs. Tyler but Tyler responded somewhat poorly). I find it weird that they're addressing something before it becomes a real issue, it generally requires a lot more complaining and stuff to get things changed. Would like to know Blizzard's rationale behind this change.
I suspect its due to making Mech/Ghost economically viable, and realizing that if Terran reacts properly with EMP and strike cannons, there is essentially nothing that can beat a strong mech composition supplemented by a few ghosts.
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On May 05 2011 11:31 DreamSailor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:08 dump wrote:On May 05 2011 10:20 DreamSailor wrote:On May 05 2011 10:15 dump wrote:
They seriously need to stop dancing around the HT/colossus problem and start addressing it head on.
-Nerf colossus. I'm tired of having to build colossus every game. Make it do full damage only to light units.
-Buff phoenix or templar. Either give us back khaydarin with a 15mp increase instead of 25, or make phoenix do full damage to all units.
-Make zealot charge cost less than the current 200/200. Neither zealots nor zealot charge aren't worth as much as zealots or leg speed were in Brood War; it's extremely lazy design to keep their upgrade cost the same. We can't even make it up to templar tech without making a detour to colossus tech first; there's just way too much of a timing window.
As protoss I'm seriously sick of playing colossus, and neither the thor nerf nor the archon buf help at all when the whole templar tech path leaves such a ridiculously long vulnerability window. Making Phoenix do 10x2 to everything would be incredibly broken. They would start to beat Corruptors, they would beat Broodlords, they would be Vikings much worse then they already do, Voidrays would be even more of a joke against them. Not to mention they would actually be cost effective against Capital Ships, and the phoenix lift would be damn broken. Phoenix are in a good spot right now, they are strong, but not brokenly strong. I don't get why every time I mention that phoenix should be buffed, people ignore the fact that I say colossus should be nerfed. You won't need corruptors or vikings as much if you're not fighting colossus. Its irrelevant. If Colossus get nerfed, the Deathball while still be a very viable strategy. Buffing Phoenixes in the way you suggest would just change the Colossus/Voidray deathball into a Colossus/Phoenix deathball, that would with your suggested changes, be virtually unstoppable.
You realize that marauders are armored, right?
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On May 05 2011 04:46 Yaotzin wrote:It's economically inefficient. This means that the rest of his army will clean yours up.
Terran has to do the same with vikings, so what's your point?
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On May 05 2011 11:35 dump wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:31 DreamSailor wrote:On May 05 2011 11:08 dump wrote:On May 05 2011 10:20 DreamSailor wrote:On May 05 2011 10:15 dump wrote:
They seriously need to stop dancing around the HT/colossus problem and start addressing it head on.
-Nerf colossus. I'm tired of having to build colossus every game. Make it do full damage only to light units.
-Buff phoenix or templar. Either give us back khaydarin with a 15mp increase instead of 25, or make phoenix do full damage to all units.
-Make zealot charge cost less than the current 200/200. Neither zealots nor zealot charge aren't worth as much as zealots or leg speed were in Brood War; it's extremely lazy design to keep their upgrade cost the same. We can't even make it up to templar tech without making a detour to colossus tech first; there's just way too much of a timing window.
As protoss I'm seriously sick of playing colossus, and neither the thor nerf nor the archon buf help at all when the whole templar tech path leaves such a ridiculously long vulnerability window. Making Phoenix do 10x2 to everything would be incredibly broken. They would start to beat Corruptors, they would beat Broodlords, they would be Vikings much worse then they already do, Voidrays would be even more of a joke against them. Not to mention they would actually be cost effective against Capital Ships, and the phoenix lift would be damn broken. Phoenix are in a good spot right now, they are strong, but not brokenly strong. I don't get why every time I mention that phoenix should be buffed, people ignore the fact that I say colossus should be nerfed. You won't need corruptors or vikings as much if you're not fighting colossus. Its irrelevant. If Colossus get nerfed, the Deathball while still be a very viable strategy. Buffing Phoenixes in the way you suggest would just change the Colossus/Voidray deathball into a Colossus/Phoenix deathball, that would with your suggested changes, be virtually unstoppable. You realize that marauders are armored, right?
Yes, I do.
Colossus do a lot of damage, and honestly, they probably need a nerf. But they will still be siege type units, that sit behind your army. Protoss still has forcefields, and Zealots to tank damage and block marauders from getting too close.
The strategy will be weaker. But it will still be viable if they even nerfed Colossus' damage by hell, 5 per shot.
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On May 05 2011 11:32 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:30 S.O.L.I.D. wrote:On May 05 2011 11:18 Ritos753 wrote:
This broke thors just when they were starting to see some use
Yeah, this is odd to me. I personally hadn't seen anything to make me think that Thors TvP are too much of a problem (the only game that comes to mind is Thorzain vs. Tyler but Tyler responded somewhat poorly). I find it weird that they're addressing something before it becomes a real issue, it generally requires a lot more complaining and stuff to get things changed. Would like to know Blizzard's rationale behind this change. I suspect its due to making Mech/Ghost economically viable, and realizing that if Terran reacts properly with EMP and strike cannons, there is essentially nothing that can beat a strong mech composition supplemented by a few ghosts.
Other than air. And if he has a ton of marines as well as mech, you can have a ton of HTs as well as air units and wreck them. There is no way anyone has played against thors enough to conclusively and objectively decide that they're imbalanced. And if they are unbeatable, then don't let them build up the deathball. Protoss can drop, not as well as Terran of course but just as well as Zerg can. Small numbers of void rays trade with thors easily, allowing you to keep their numbers down. There are just as many ways for Protoss to deal with a Terran deathball as there are ways for Zerg to deal with Protoss deathballs (in fact I'd say there are more).
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On May 05 2011 11:39 DreamSailor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:35 dump wrote:On May 05 2011 11:31 DreamSailor wrote:On May 05 2011 11:08 dump wrote:On May 05 2011 10:20 DreamSailor wrote:On May 05 2011 10:15 dump wrote:
They seriously need to stop dancing around the HT/colossus problem and start addressing it head on.
-Nerf colossus. I'm tired of having to build colossus every game. Make it do full damage only to light units.
-Buff phoenix or templar. Either give us back khaydarin with a 15mp increase instead of 25, or make phoenix do full damage to all units.
-Make zealot charge cost less than the current 200/200. Neither zealots nor zealot charge aren't worth as much as zealots or leg speed were in Brood War; it's extremely lazy design to keep their upgrade cost the same. We can't even make it up to templar tech without making a detour to colossus tech first; there's just way too much of a timing window.
As protoss I'm seriously sick of playing colossus, and neither the thor nerf nor the archon buf help at all when the whole templar tech path leaves such a ridiculously long vulnerability window. Making Phoenix do 10x2 to everything would be incredibly broken. They would start to beat Corruptors, they would beat Broodlords, they would be Vikings much worse then they already do, Voidrays would be even more of a joke against them. Not to mention they would actually be cost effective against Capital Ships, and the phoenix lift would be damn broken. Phoenix are in a good spot right now, they are strong, but not brokenly strong. I don't get why every time I mention that phoenix should be buffed, people ignore the fact that I say colossus should be nerfed. You won't need corruptors or vikings as much if you're not fighting colossus. Its irrelevant. If Colossus get nerfed, the Deathball while still be a very viable strategy. Buffing Phoenixes in the way you suggest would just change the Colossus/Voidray deathball into a Colossus/Phoenix deathball, that would with your suggested changes, be virtually unstoppable. You realize that marauders are armored, right? Yes, I do. Colossus do a lot of damage, and honestly, they probably need a nerf. But they will still be siege type units, that sit behind your army. Protoss still has forcefields, and Zealots to tank damage and block marauders from getting too close. The strategy will be weaker. But it will still be viable if they even nerfed Colossus' damage by hell, 5 per shot.
5?? I'd say go with 10 against non-light, really.
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I don't get why every time I mention that phoenix should be buffed, people ignore the fact that I say colossus should be nerfed.
You won't need corruptors or vikings as much if you're not fighting colossus.
What the hell could T or Z ever do to take air superiority away from Toss is Phoenix did that much damage to everything? Part of the point of units like Vikings and Corruptors is to effectively fight Phoenixes.
Moreover, due to graviton beam, Phoenix deathsquads would be nearly unbeatable. Fending off early Phoenixes as Z would be 100% impossible, as even Queens would die nearly immediately. Terran would fair somewhat better due to Marines, but they would never, ever be able to mount any kind of respectable air force, not when their primary air-to-air would get spanked silly by a unit Toss can build faster than a Zealot.
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Darn. I dislike this Thor change. It was perfect how it was I thought. Hmmm.
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On May 05 2011 11:20 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:15 EnderPR wrote:On May 05 2011 11:12 DooMDash wrote:On May 05 2011 10:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:Hmm I don't think that's true. Storm is the scariest thing ever, and actually kills our units. EMP deals 100 damage, essentially, to any unit with at least 100 shields, and simply removes the shields of any other unit. Unlike Storm, it cannot be dodged, and its range is longer than Storm. This is in addition to wiping out 100 energy from any caster caught in the blast. In its effectiveness at dealing terrific aoe damage, and neutralizing casters, against Toss EMP actually combines some of the very best aspects of feedback and psi storm. And Ghosts are substantially cheaper in terms of gas than HTs, which means you can much more easily use them in combination with other higher tech units. Storm is much much much worse. EMP have a peak damage and as many as you have afterwards are useless. You can dodge storm, kinda.. but you can also storm in the direction of the dodging. Storm is really just way better than EMP even if you can dodge it. I'm not saying I want a storm nerf, but to get back on topic the Thor nerf is retarded. I would argue that EMP is stronger. If Toss army gets EMPed at high supply then T can just attack and crush it. Just watch some of MVPs games and some TSL games to see that happen. They are hard to dodge and do significant damage to any gateway army as well. They are also getting cheaper in the next patch. Storm is strong, but with the KA nerf if you miss some then its bad. Not only that, but Marauders are pretty bulky and Medivacs heal pretty quick if you dont just sit in the middle of the storm for its duration. This doesn't even get into how EMP could create a strong timing push if toss doesnt split sentries There really is no argument to be had. Storm is stronger then EMP. That's it. Storm does way more damage in a larger area against all races and all units. You can't really run away if you have FF. Sure storm takes a while to get, but once it's in play (PvT) it's a epic battle to emp the templars before they unleash total devastation. <3 EDIT: Thor's shouldn't have energy. Templars can then feedback: Medivacs, ghosts, thors, ravens, banshees and battlecruisers. That's ½ of the terran army. (6 out of 12 units, or 6 out of 7 high tech units). Remember, it doesn't just do dmg, it takes away from their battle potential too
Technically, storm has a smaller area of effect and a lower max damage than EMP, but don't let that stop you ranting.
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I'd like to say I'm surprised that Terran is getting nerfed, through the Thor, but I'm really not ... So silly.
I really would have never guessed Blizzard was seeing Terran's late tier single target DPS unit as a problem when there are cliff-walking laser shooting siege tanks that auto-heal wreaking havoc across the entire SC2 world. Seems ... odd.
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remember the increased range for roaches? 3 range for archons is going to be awesome! it allows those archons in the back to get in their dps, and good bye muta's and corruptors!
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On May 05 2011 12:06 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:20 tnud wrote:On May 05 2011 11:15 EnderPR wrote:On May 05 2011 11:12 DooMDash wrote:On May 05 2011 10:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:Hmm I don't think that's true. Storm is the scariest thing ever, and actually kills our units. EMP deals 100 damage, essentially, to any unit with at least 100 shields, and simply removes the shields of any other unit. Unlike Storm, it cannot be dodged, and its range is longer than Storm. This is in addition to wiping out 100 energy from any caster caught in the blast. In its effectiveness at dealing terrific aoe damage, and neutralizing casters, against Toss EMP actually combines some of the very best aspects of feedback and psi storm. And Ghosts are substantially cheaper in terms of gas than HTs, which means you can much more easily use them in combination with other higher tech units. Storm is much much much worse. EMP have a peak damage and as many as you have afterwards are useless. You can dodge storm, kinda.. but you can also storm in the direction of the dodging. Storm is really just way better than EMP even if you can dodge it. I'm not saying I want a storm nerf, but to get back on topic the Thor nerf is retarded. I would argue that EMP is stronger. If Toss army gets EMPed at high supply then T can just attack and crush it. Just watch some of MVPs games and some TSL games to see that happen. They are hard to dodge and do significant damage to any gateway army as well. They are also getting cheaper in the next patch. Storm is strong, but with the KA nerf if you miss some then its bad. Not only that, but Marauders are pretty bulky and Medivacs heal pretty quick if you dont just sit in the middle of the storm for its duration. This doesn't even get into how EMP could create a strong timing push if toss doesnt split sentries There really is no argument to be had. Storm is stronger then EMP. That's it. Storm does way more damage in a larger area against all races and all units. You can't really run away if you have FF. Sure storm takes a while to get, but once it's in play (PvT) it's a epic battle to emp the templars before they unleash total devastation. <3 EDIT: Thor's shouldn't have energy. Templars can then feedback: Medivacs, ghosts, thors, ravens, banshees and battlecruisers. That's ½ of the terran army. (6 out of 12 units, or 6 out of 7 high tech units). Remember, it doesn't just do dmg, it takes away from their battle potential too Technically, storm has a smaller area of effect and a lower max damage than EMP, but don't let that stop you ranting.
Lower max damage if you do one storm... EMP does a lower max damage in just about every other situation and is not capable of killing anything.
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On May 05 2011 12:09 TimeSpiral wrote:
I'd like to say I'm surprised that Terran is getting nerfed, through the Thor, but I'm really not ... So silly.
I really would have never guessed Blizzard was seeing Terran's late tier single target DPS unit as a problem when there are cliff-walking laser shooting siege tanks that auto-heal wreaking havoc across the entire SC2 world. Seems ... odd.
Because the Protoss deathball is weaker than the other races deathball by a large margin without the Colossus? Have you forgotten that the other viable Tier 3 Protoss tech was nerfed considerably with the KA removal?
The Colossus is so strong because it's the most reliable. Going HT tech first is idiotic
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wow an increase to archon range...thats...very unexpected but very very cool, its often times that immortals and archons will just be stuck behind the army so hopefully this will add to the archons abilty ability
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EPT
