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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 11:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I don't get why every time I mention that phoenix should be buffed, people ignore the fact that I say colossus should be nerfed.
You won't need corruptors or vikings as much if you're not fighting colossus. What the hell could T or Z ever do to take air superiority away from Toss is Phoenix did that much damage to everything? Part of the point of units like Vikings and Corruptors is to effectively fight Phoenixes. Moreover, due to graviton beam, Phoenix deathsquads would be nearly unbeatable. Fending off early Phoenixes as Z would be 100% impossible, as even Queens would die nearly immediately. Terran would fair somewhat better due to Marines, but they would never, ever be able to mount any kind of respectable air force, not when their primary air-to-air would get spanked silly by a unit Toss can build faster than a Zealot.
Vikings to fight phoenixes to protect what exactly? More vikings? Banshees?
The whole point of a banshee is a harassment unit; you use them when the protoss has no air defenses around. The conditions for using banshees are already quite limiting as they are now; "no stargate" isn't a very concerning addition, especially when a protoss also usually needs to have a robotics bay in order to fight off banshees in the air anyway.
Queens die to 4 phoenix as it is. They won't die to 2, because that's only 1/3 the firepower of 4. They might die to 3 instead of 4. A chrono boosted phoenix takes about 17 seconds to build -- the same as a probe. I don't see that as being a grave issue at all -- especially when colossus would no longer roast queens or roaches the way they do now.
Right now, when I do phoenix harass, none of my zerg opponents survive if all they depend on is queens. That situation won't change.
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On May 05 2011 11:20 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 11:15 EnderPR wrote:On May 05 2011 11:12 DooMDash wrote:On May 05 2011 10:12 awesomoecalypse wrote:Hmm I don't think that's true. Storm is the scariest thing ever, and actually kills our units. EMP deals 100 damage, essentially, to any unit with at least 100 shields, and simply removes the shields of any other unit. Unlike Storm, it cannot be dodged, and its range is longer than Storm. This is in addition to wiping out 100 energy from any caster caught in the blast. In its effectiveness at dealing terrific aoe damage, and neutralizing casters, against Toss EMP actually combines some of the very best aspects of feedback and psi storm. And Ghosts are substantially cheaper in terms of gas than HTs, which means you can much more easily use them in combination with other higher tech units. Storm is much much much worse. EMP have a peak damage and as many as you have afterwards are useless. You can dodge storm, kinda.. but you can also storm in the direction of the dodging. Storm is really just way better than EMP even if you can dodge it. I'm not saying I want a storm nerf, but to get back on topic the Thor nerf is retarded. I would argue that EMP is stronger. If Toss army gets EMPed at high supply then T can just attack and crush it. Just watch some of MVPs games and some TSL games to see that happen. They are hard to dodge and do significant damage to any gateway army as well. They are also getting cheaper in the next patch. Storm is strong, but with the KA nerf if you miss some then its bad. Not only that, but Marauders are pretty bulky and Medivacs heal pretty quick if you dont just sit in the middle of the storm for its duration. This doesn't even get into how EMP could create a strong timing push if toss doesnt split sentries There really is no argument to be had. Storm is stronger then EMP. That's it. Storm does way more damage in a larger area against all races and all units. You can't really run away if you have FF. Sure storm takes a while to get, but once it's in play (PvT) it's a epic battle to emp the templars before they unleash total devastation. <3 EDIT: Thor's shouldn't have energy. Templars can then feedback: Medivacs, ghosts, thors, ravens, banshees and battlecruisers. That's ½ of the terran army. (6 out of 12 units, or 6 out of 7 high tech units). Remember, it doesn't just do dmg, it takes away from their battle potential too
EMP is stronger per hit than storm, especially in SC2 where battles are won or lost in the span of a storm or two. Also, EMP has a larger radius than storm so I dont see how you can say it does more damage in a larger area. In a TvP scenario, EMP destroys storm in terms of damage and effectiveness. In every other scenario then storm could be looked at as a stronger ability because it actually deals damage.
Also, EMP prevents FF and storm entirely, which is part of why its so strong. 3-4 ghosts can instantly take away half of the protoss armies hp and all of their casting abilities while the equivalent 3-4 HT can storm a few times and potentially do decent damage. It takes 3 full storms to equal the damage done from a single EMP, if there is any dodging it takes more.
Why do I say 3 and not 2? Because the radius of EMP is larger than storm and it will (generally) do at least 60 damage and usually more. Also, again, it prevents any FF or storm when used.
Seriously though guys, just because you say there is no argument to be had does not make it the case. Dont be ridiculous.
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Of course there is an argument, but I'd take storm any day, and I'm pretty sure most people would.
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On May 05 2011 12:48 DooMDash wrote:
Of course there is an argument, but I'd take storm any day, and I'm pretty sure most people would.
i would take fungal growth any day, the instant damage of the other two spells is too good against toss.
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What exactly is terran going to build for a late game gas sink now? The thor change is a huge hit to mech, so for arguments sake let's assume bio is the only viable option come patch time.
I feel like ravens have to get too close to fire seeker missile and will just get feedback casted on them, so even ignoring the slow travel speed of SM I feel that's out of the question. Maybe battlecruisers will be the best option since most terrans will already have a couple starports built by late game? I already have been upgrading air attack when I can afford it to offset armor upgrades by protoss so they have that going for them already I suppose.
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On May 05 2011 12:50 ZoneofEnders wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 12:48 DooMDash wrote:
Of course there is an argument, but I'd take storm any day, and I'm pretty sure most people would. i would take fungal growth any day, the instant damage of the other two spells is too good against toss.
I'd probably take Storm over fungal. I think infestors are better than Templar but I think Storm is the best. Just my opinion though.
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On May 05 2011 12:57 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 12:50 ZoneofEnders wrote:On May 05 2011 12:48 DooMDash wrote:
Of course there is an argument, but I'd take storm any day, and I'm pretty sure most people would. i would take fungal growth any day, the instant damage of the other two spells is too good against toss. I'd probably take Storm over fungal. I think infestors are better than Templar but I think Storm is the best. Just my opinion though.
Alright, I need an explanation here. You think storm is better than fungal, but infestors are better than HT. What is it about infestors that makes them better than HT in your opinion?
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On May 05 2011 12:57 angra86 wrote:
What exactly is terran going to build for a late game gas sink now?
Medivacs and marauders of course, they're the only gas units Terrans are ever allowed to make.
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On May 05 2011 13:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 12:57 DooMDash wrote:On May 05 2011 12:50 ZoneofEnders wrote:On May 05 2011 12:48 DooMDash wrote:
Of course there is an argument, but I'd take storm any day, and I'm pretty sure most people would. i would take fungal growth any day, the instant damage of the other two spells is too good against toss. I'd probably take Storm over fungal. I think infestors are better than Templar but I think Storm is the best. Just my opinion though. Alright, I need an explanation here. You think storm is better than fungal, but infestors are better than HT. What is it about infestors that makes them better than HT in your opinion?
NP completely negates mech / battle cruisers in some situations. You can NP ghosts and EMP any other ghosts. IT's can harass mineral lines really well, and force siege tanks to kill your own units.
I would say storm is slightly better than FG, but still the Infestor counters everything from light to heavy to casters ( not so much ghosts but sometimes ), and its faster than templar, with the ability to burrow.
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Since when do people use ghosts as a late game gas sink? I never really see many pros have too much trouble keeping gas low because mules are throwing off the ratio.
And to the best caster/cast: EMP because you can be cloaked when using it, it nullifies all other casters, uncloaks units, and the ghost can actually attack and has decent speed + the snipe ability.
In 2nd place would have to be the FG. It does so much damage so fast, but mainly it locks down units, unlike any of the others which are dodgeable.
Storm is amazing whenever it can be used correctly, but that rarely happens and I dont like playing based off of luck
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I must point one of the best things about EMP ( shield removal ) is also match specific. FG and Storm are good, but not match specific. That's why you guys would never want to trade for EMP.
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Spore Crawler change was a slap in the face.
I can't believe the brilliant minds of Blizzard haven't even thought about making Queens "Massive"; I guess Protoss needs more buffs huh.
Who knew that Protosses weren't winning tournaments across the globe.
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yeah dude protoss are doing so good vs zerg lately right?
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I like the Thor change. It feels silly to have 250mm strike cannons work so heavily in terms of momentum, since the ability currently refreshes faster than you can replenish any of the heavy units it's good against.
Also, why are people saying HT's are some huge counter for Thors? They probably won't be. If you're using multiple feedbacks to bring multiple Thors down 100-200 energy, that's far less feedbacks on any ghosts, medevacs, and less storms. Then you have a 200-300 HP Thor with whatever other support (tanks, bio, helions, w/e) and possibly still being auto-repaired. I'm not at all convinced this change makes thor/mech unfeasible..
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EDIT: You should probably read the post below mine instead. I'm still too bitter  .
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On May 05 2011 13:30 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 10:37 HallBregg wrote:
I think that to promote HT play it would be better to nerf collous insted of making thors useless again. Funny thing is that with thor play being cut off even before it had time to develop, Terran player will have to rely in bio again making toss player use colosus even more, and hence HT play will not incrase at all.
The bottom line is that toss have two aoe units serving in general tems the same purpose being colussus a lot easier and straightforward to use and HT play is always going to sufer for it.
I personally like the HT-ghost dinamic a lot more than the collosus-viking one, cos I hate that vikings are useless at anything else that killing collusus, and I think the whole introduction of colussus was a design error, but well... is not like they are going to remove collosus at this stage... It's hilarious to read this thread and see so many Terrans saying essentially the same thing I said when Khaydarin Amulet was removed. This will destroy High Templar play, it will force Colossus vs bio play which is far less interesting than Templar based play, etc. Where were you Terrans supporting High Templar back then when we needed you?
I'll translate into less flamebaitish phrasing:
KA upgrade's main advantage was mobility of toss. Without it, they are forced to rely on deathball mechanics, hence, now the Thor change + archon change were made to mitigate that somewhat. But the underlying problem is still there - Toss lack mobility with anything other than blink stalkers and phoenixes, which both are terrible against a solid T defense. The reliance on thermal lance is therefor increased.
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Where were you Terrans supporting High Templar back then when we needed you?
This approves one more time that blizz has no clue about what they do. Removing of KA have much less sense without colossi nerf.
If this Thor change will go live... you all better afraid of HotS. 
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On May 05 2011 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
yeah dude protoss are doing so good vs zerg lately right?
All of IdrA's wins vs Protoss were cheese.
He said so himself. Zerg still has no counter to FF. Only roaches.
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On May 05 2011 13:13 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:06 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 12:57 DooMDash wrote:On May 05 2011 12:50 ZoneofEnders wrote:On May 05 2011 12:48 DooMDash wrote:
Of course there is an argument, but I'd take storm any day, and I'm pretty sure most people would. i would take fungal growth any day, the instant damage of the other two spells is too good against toss. I'd probably take Storm over fungal. I think infestors are better than Templar but I think Storm is the best. Just my opinion though. Alright, I need an explanation here. You think storm is better than fungal, but infestors are better than HT. What is it about infestors that makes them better than HT in your opinion? NP completely negates mech / battle cruisers in some situations. You can NP ghosts and EMP any other ghosts. IT's can harass mineral lines really well, and force siege tanks to kill your own units. I would say storm is slightly better than FG, but still the Infestor counters everything from light to heavy to casters ( not so much ghosts but sometimes ), and its faster than templar, with the ability to burrow.
Wait, you do know that Feedback would trash Infestors, right?
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On May 05 2011 13:57 rS.eZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
yeah dude protoss are doing so good vs zerg lately right? All of IdrA's wins vs Protoss were cheese. He said so himself. Zerg still has no counter to FF. Only roaches. why does there have to be a 'counter' for FFs? why does there have to be a counter for everything?
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EPT
