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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 05 2011 14:22 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:15 psycroptic wrote:On May 05 2011 13:57 rS.eZrA wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
yeah dude protoss are doing so good vs zerg lately right? All of IdrA's wins vs Protoss were cheese. He said so himself. Zerg still has no counter to FF. Only roaches. why does there have to be a 'counter' for FFs? why does there have to be a counter for everything? I've been wondering that myself lately. Why does there have to be a 'counter' to thors? Why do Protoss players have to beat them by playing high-graphics rock-paper-scissors rather than just outplaying their opponent? *sigh* And if Blizzard's history has taught me anything, once their assbrained 'fixes' hit the PTR they're going to go through, because they have pages upon pages of statistics that somehow prove they make the game more interesting and strategic and that thors were in fact super-duper imba.
There doesnt have to be a 'counter' to thors, there needs to be a way to handle them. If there is no way to handle them then there is no way to outplay the opponent unless you are significantly better than them. This is why there are balance changes.
I mean, let me use an extreme example from the beta. Warpgates had a 60 second research time originally... 60 seconds. There was no 'counter' to this. There was no way to beat it. So, it got changed to 140 seconds. Using your logic, why was this change necessary? Why couldnt other players just outplay them?
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On May 05 2011 15:55 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 15:50 randplaty wrote:
As much as people don't like it... Blizzard is clearly balancing for lower level casual gamers. I HIGHLY doubt that Blizzard took a look at Thorzain's 2-3 games where he dominated with Thors and decided to nerf them.
Blizzard is likely looking at the hundreds of thousands of games where low level casual gamers abused thors in their PvT matchups making the game unfun.
The same is true with 4 gate. Like Tyler and others have pointed out... 4 gate was sorting itself out at the pro level... the problem is, it was not sorting itself out at the lower levels and probably never would. Therefore in order to make the game more fun, Blizzard decides to nerf 4 gate.
We know for a fact that Blizzard uses statistics from lower level ladder play to address balance. They take into consideration 2v2 and other team games also. They take EVERYTHING into consideration, not just pro balance. We here at TL only look at pro level games and feel that only pro level people can talk on balance. Clearly Blizzard does not feel the same way. I remember hearing during an interview that blizzard said that they do look at balance for all levels of play but will only balance something for the lower leagues if they feel it will not hurt higher level of play. Also with the updated patch notes it seems to me they reverted the pvp 4gate changes. the warp gate research is back to normal the only gateway unit that still builds faster is the sentry. So basically the only 4 gate nerf that is still in is the pylon nerf which doesn't make 4gating in pvp impossible imo just harder.
Naw, Warpgate is sitll 20s longer while Sentries are 5s shorter. Still nerfed but the important balancing buffs were taken away. 4 Gate in PvZ/PvT will become as rare as a Stargate opening ever since the Void nerf.
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ITT: People predict the end of 4g rushes
First PvP after patch goes live: People still 4gating, even if unsuccessfully. artosis calls them bad
calling it now
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Thor Nerf is IMHO just totally uncalled for. Thors just did start to get some use in the MU, without being even slightly as effective as the Toss equivalent, being the colossus.
Strike Cannons dealt with the Unit that totally hard counters Thors, the Immortal. Without Strike Cannons u cant play Thors against Immortals, Period.
But thats not even the main problem. Toss players didnt have any problems not using Immortals because the Colossus raped Thors like they do with every Ground Unit. Strike Cannons werent viable against that play, because you wouldnt get into range of the colossi against a halfway decent toss.
The Change just makes Immortals AND HTS negate Thors again. I simply cant understand Blizzards train of thought having already made the experience with Thorenergy.
In my Opinion the Main Problem atm is the Colossus. It just shouldnt be effective agaisnt EVERY ground unit in the game. I mean honestly there is no other unit thats designed like that.
If they want the Unit to be good against everything okay. Just lower the damage. Its benefit will be the allround usability. But cut the overall damage ffs. Or if u want it to be a counter to light units, cut the freaking damage to armored Units.
Its just not understandable why the Colossus should rape light units like nothing else in the game AND also be totally effective against all other units.
As of now the Colossus is on the one hand a better AoE Dmg dealer than the HT post KA and on the other Hand even a better counter to Armored units than the Immortal that was designed for that role.
Im sure blizz will eventually do sth but i cant see why they dont do it now + the Thor Change just makes me angry because in Comparison even a Thor with +50 Dmg wouldnt be as much of a problem as the Colossus.
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On May 05 2011 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 14:22 Ezekyle wrote:On May 05 2011 14:15 psycroptic wrote:On May 05 2011 13:57 rS.eZrA wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
yeah dude protoss are doing so good vs zerg lately right? All of IdrA's wins vs Protoss were cheese. He said so himself. Zerg still has no counter to FF. Only roaches. why does there have to be a 'counter' for FFs? why does there have to be a counter for everything? I've been wondering that myself lately. Why does there have to be a 'counter' to thors? Why do Protoss players have to beat them by playing high-graphics rock-paper-scissors rather than just outplaying their opponent? *sigh* And if Blizzard's history has taught me anything, once their assbrained 'fixes' hit the PTR they're going to go through, because they have pages upon pages of statistics that somehow prove they make the game more interesting and strategic and that thors were in fact super-duper imba. There doesnt have to be a 'counter' to thors, there needs to be a way to handle them. If there is no way to handle them then there is no way to outplay the opponent unless you are significantly better than them. This is why there are balance changes. I mean, let me use an extreme example from the beta. Warpgates had a 60 second research time originally... 60 seconds. There was no 'counter' to this. There was no way to beat it. So, it got changed to 140 seconds. Using your logic, why was this change necessary? Why couldnt other players just outplay them?
What I'm irritated by is the people saying that 'the Blizzard website/Prima strategy guide says immortals counter thors therefore i should make immortals and thors should die'. There's no direct counter to MMM with ghosts and vikings either, and roughly half of all PvTs you play you should lose to that composition even though you made all the right units and did all the right things. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with losing half the games you play against thor-centric armies even though you made immortals and void rays and carriers and whatnot, which is what people seem to have a problem with. x resources worth of immortals are roughly equal to x resources worth of thors thanks to strike cannons, but this is somehow a bad thing and a sign of imbalance because immortals are meant to beat thors dammit. Why can't thors vs. immortals be an even fight decided by who has the better macro/upgrades/positioning/supporting units/whatever else?
This isn't something that only applies to this discussion, mind you - it seems that almost every balance debate comes down to 'I want something that beats this strategy 100% of the time no matter what". I'm not even hating on Protoss players in particular, I think players of every race can get pretty unreasonable about balance, although Zergs get the most flak for it. It just irritates me to see people say "yes, that can beat thor-based armies with that, but WHAT IF he does this and this and this and has a better economy and better micro and i'm only playing with one hand because i'm drinking coffee". There's nothing wrong with a solid composition beating you even though you made no significant mistakes. If your opponent made no significant mistakes either you should lose half the games you play, and this is something that people in this thread and others don't seem to take into account.
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On May 05 2011 16:05 Eknoid4 wrote:
ITT: People predict the end of 4g rushes
First PvP after patch goes live: People still 4gating, even if unsuccessfully. artosis calls them bad
calling it now
Late 4gates still work in PvP.
Nexus Cancels are all the rage now in PvZ, 20seconds on Warpgate won't change that. It might make ling roach all-ins stronger, the need for earlier gateways to get sentries out quicker, but that is it really.
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On May 05 2011 16:21 Ezekyle wrote:
There's no direct counter to MMM with ghosts and vikings either
Likewise, there's nothing wrong with losing half the games you play against mass thor even though you made immortals and void rays and carriers and whatnot.
You should notice something doesn't quite fit here....hurrdurr.
MMM with ghosts and vikings in comparison with...mass thors? Like comparing zealot/stalker/sentry/colossus/templar (yes, that's the same amount of units) with mass immortals? Just to be clear, I disagree with the thor-nerf though since mass thors can be countered.
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On May 05 2011 15:57 Foxx1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 15:15 Yogurt wrote:
I hate how feedback is in this game. I hate how almost every spell in this game is a disabling spell rather than a continuation of micro spell.
Feedback - stops exciting spellcasters
fungal - stops any sort of micro
strike cannon - stun
graviton - stun and lift - somewhat exciting
forcefield - stops micro minus burrowed roach
What happened to dark swarm pushes, plague, irridates everywhere. Not to turn this into a BW vs SC2 discussion, but now with thors having energy, it is becoming a bit ridiculous This reminds me of WoW now I think about it.. lol. So many stuns -_-.
Cheap Shot, Scatter Shot, Kidney Shot, Pounce, Hammer of Justice, Bash, Charge, Intercept, the list grows on and on
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On May 05 2011 16:21 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 14:22 Ezekyle wrote:On May 05 2011 14:15 psycroptic wrote:On May 05 2011 13:57 rS.eZrA wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
yeah dude protoss are doing so good vs zerg lately right? All of IdrA's wins vs Protoss were cheese. He said so himself. Zerg still has no counter to FF. Only roaches. why does there have to be a 'counter' for FFs? why does there have to be a counter for everything? I've been wondering that myself lately. Why does there have to be a 'counter' to thors? Why do Protoss players have to beat them by playing high-graphics rock-paper-scissors rather than just outplaying their opponent? *sigh* And if Blizzard's history has taught me anything, once their assbrained 'fixes' hit the PTR they're going to go through, because they have pages upon pages of statistics that somehow prove they make the game more interesting and strategic and that thors were in fact super-duper imba. There doesnt have to be a 'counter' to thors, there needs to be a way to handle them. If there is no way to handle them then there is no way to outplay the opponent unless you are significantly better than them. This is why there are balance changes. I mean, let me use an extreme example from the beta. Warpgates had a 60 second research time originally... 60 seconds. There was no 'counter' to this. There was no way to beat it. So, it got changed to 140 seconds. Using your logic, why was this change necessary? Why couldnt other players just outplay them? What I'm irritated by is the people saying that 'the Blizzard website/Prima strategy guide says immortals counter thors therefore i should make immortals and thors should die'. There's no direct counter to MMM with ghosts and vikings either, and roughly half of all PvTs you play you should lose to that composition even though you made all the right units and did all the right things. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with losing half the games you play against mass thor even though you made immortals and void rays and carriers and whatnot, which is what people seem to have a problem with. x resources worth of immortals are roughly equal to x resources worth of thors thanks to strike cannons, but this is somehow a bad thing and a sign of imbalance because immortals are meant to beat thors dammit. Why can't thors vs. immortals be an even fight decided by who has the better macro/upgrades/positioning/whatever else?
Because it's one unit. Saying "I have no counter to MMMGV" is an entirely different thing to saying "I have no counter to thors." A balanced composition of five different units should be impossible to counter. A single unit is not a balanced composition, and needs a clear counter, which thors don't really have because they can beat their counter if they have strike cannons. That's the whole point.
Personally, I think it's a fairly silly change - at the very least, 150 energy for strike cannons is an absurdly large number - but there's no way the comparison is valid.
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On May 05 2011 16:53 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 16:21 Ezekyle wrote:On May 05 2011 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 14:22 Ezekyle wrote:On May 05 2011 14:15 psycroptic wrote:On May 05 2011 13:57 rS.eZrA wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
yeah dude protoss are doing so good vs zerg lately right? All of IdrA's wins vs Protoss were cheese. He said so himself. Zerg still has no counter to FF. Only roaches. why does there have to be a 'counter' for FFs? why does there have to be a counter for everything? I've been wondering that myself lately. Why does there have to be a 'counter' to thors? Why do Protoss players have to beat them by playing high-graphics rock-paper-scissors rather than just outplaying their opponent? *sigh* And if Blizzard's history has taught me anything, once their assbrained 'fixes' hit the PTR they're going to go through, because they have pages upon pages of statistics that somehow prove they make the game more interesting and strategic and that thors were in fact super-duper imba. There doesnt have to be a 'counter' to thors, there needs to be a way to handle them. If there is no way to handle them then there is no way to outplay the opponent unless you are significantly better than them. This is why there are balance changes. I mean, let me use an extreme example from the beta. Warpgates had a 60 second research time originally... 60 seconds. There was no 'counter' to this. There was no way to beat it. So, it got changed to 140 seconds. Using your logic, why was this change necessary? Why couldnt other players just outplay them? What I'm irritated by is the people saying that 'the Blizzard website/Prima strategy guide says immortals counter thors therefore i should make immortals and thors should die'. There's no direct counter to MMM with ghosts and vikings either, and roughly half of all PvTs you play you should lose to that composition even though you made all the right units and did all the right things. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with losing half the games you play against mass thor even though you made immortals and void rays and carriers and whatnot, which is what people seem to have a problem with. x resources worth of immortals are roughly equal to x resources worth of thors thanks to strike cannons, but this is somehow a bad thing and a sign of imbalance because immortals are meant to beat thors dammit. Why can't thors vs. immortals be an even fight decided by who has the better macro/upgrades/positioning/whatever else? This isn't something that only applies to this discussion, mind you - it seems that almost every balance debate comes down to 'I want something that beats this strategy 100% of the time no matter what". I'm not even hating on Protoss players in particular, I think players of every race can get pretty unreasonable about balance, although Zergs get the most flak for it. It just irritates me to see people say "yes, that can beat thors with that, but WHAT IF he does this and this and this and has a better economy and better micro and i'm only playing with one hand because i'm drinking coffee". There's nothing wrong with a solid composition beating you even though you made no significant mistakes. If your opponent made no significant mistakes either you should lose half the games you play, and this is something that people in this thread and others don't seem to take into account. Because it's one unit. Saying "I have no counter to MMMGV" has no counter is an entirely different thing to saying "I have no counter to thors." A composition of five different units should be impossible to counter. A single unit should not. The fact is that it's possible to have make pretty much nothing but thors and get your 50% chance of victory. Personally, I think it's a fairly silly change - at the very least, 150 energy for strike cannons is an absurdly large number - but there's no way your comparison between thors and a composition as complex as MMMGV is valid.
True, that's a very good point. I did oversimplify things, my bad. However, most people weren't actually complaining about pure thors, and those who did were flat-out wrong, because pure thors absolutely do die to a number of things. Rather, most people were complaining that thors with support don't auto-die to Protoss unit x. I'm sure anyone who's been paying attention to this thread can recall a handful of times when someone recommends carriers or magic boxed void rays as a counter and is told "no, because the stimmed marines with the thors kill them". And if someone then said that HTs would help to kill the marines, that would be shot down because the Terran obviously has ghosts to EMP them first. And you can't assassinate the ghosts with DTs because he has ravens too. And you can't shoot down the ravens because blah blah blah you get the picture.
So yes, pure thor being countered does happen and it isn't a bad thing. My post probably should have been talking more about 'thor-based compositions' rather than just 'thors'. I'll edit that in a second.
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On May 05 2011 16:53 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 16:21 Ezekyle wrote:On May 05 2011 16:00 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 05 2011 14:22 Ezekyle wrote:On May 05 2011 14:15 psycroptic wrote:On May 05 2011 13:57 rS.eZrA wrote:On May 05 2011 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
yeah dude protoss are doing so good vs zerg lately right? All of IdrA's wins vs Protoss were cheese. He said so himself. Zerg still has no counter to FF. Only roaches. why does there have to be a 'counter' for FFs? why does there have to be a counter for everything? I've been wondering that myself lately. Why does there have to be a 'counter' to thors? Why do Protoss players have to beat them by playing high-graphics rock-paper-scissors rather than just outplaying their opponent? *sigh* And if Blizzard's history has taught me anything, once their assbrained 'fixes' hit the PTR they're going to go through, because they have pages upon pages of statistics that somehow prove they make the game more interesting and strategic and that thors were in fact super-duper imba. There doesnt have to be a 'counter' to thors, there needs to be a way to handle them. If there is no way to handle them then there is no way to outplay the opponent unless you are significantly better than them. This is why there are balance changes. I mean, let me use an extreme example from the beta. Warpgates had a 60 second research time originally... 60 seconds. There was no 'counter' to this. There was no way to beat it. So, it got changed to 140 seconds. Using your logic, why was this change necessary? Why couldnt other players just outplay them? What I'm irritated by is the people saying that 'the Blizzard website/Prima strategy guide says immortals counter thors therefore i should make immortals and thors should die'. There's no direct counter to MMM with ghosts and vikings either, and roughly half of all PvTs you play you should lose to that composition even though you made all the right units and did all the right things. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with losing half the games you play against mass thor even though you made immortals and void rays and carriers and whatnot, which is what people seem to have a problem with. x resources worth of immortals are roughly equal to x resources worth of thors thanks to strike cannons, but this is somehow a bad thing and a sign of imbalance because immortals are meant to beat thors dammit. Why can't thors vs. immortals be an even fight decided by who has the better macro/upgrades/positioning/whatever else? Because it's one unit. Saying "I have no counter to MMMGV" is an entirely different thing to saying "I have no counter to thors." A balanced composition of five different units should be impossible to counter. Single units, on the other hand, need clear counters, which thors don't really have because they can beat their clear counter if they have strike cannons. That's the whole point. Personally, I think it's a fairly silly change - at the very least, 150 energy for strike cannons is an absurdly large number - but there's no way the comparison is valid.
Even Yamato Cannon isn't worth150 Mana, and nothing should cost more mana than unleashing a mini Nuclear Fusion Blast
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Here's an idea Blizzard, remove strike cannons from the game, Thors need no energy bar, tadaaaa!
The strike cannon spell is about as thought out as the Transformer movies, the only reason it's there is because Blizzard hopes it'll attract some 13 year old boys that actually think Transformers is a good movie. Every time the spell gets usage in a Matchup they nerf it (vs Ultralisks TvZ, make Ultra's unstunnable), then they're like "no-one is using it and we put a lot of thought into this unit with large cannons" so they buff it and when it actually gets (sporadically) used again, they nerf it back to it's sucky old self.
Worst thing is that High Templar with storm already counter pretty much every Terran unit composition, the nice thing about the energy removal was that Terran could rely on the Thor's resilience to storm to transition out of bio play, now that Templar can just feedback them again there's no reasonable next step in Terran play.
When is getting High Tempar ever going to be a bad idea from a counter perspective? Terran air clumps heavily and is thus highly susceptible to storm, ravens, bc's and banshees can all be fedback. Storm is obviously great against bio and medivacs can be fedback also. Ghost are a soft-counter relying on who's quicker to use their spell. The only two units that seem 'ok' to have are hellions and tanks and even those suffer heavily under storms, not to mention that Archons do great against both.
Long story short, stupid limiting change based around keeping a stupid spell in the game. Why can't Thors just NOT have a spell so they don't counter immortals and thus not get countered by HT's. How is removing a unit from a MU a better change than removing the (stupid) spell that causes all the problems? It isn't even an interesting spell to look at -_-' If they insist in keeping it in the game they could at least be sensible and make it so it can only hit air units, making pure mech actually good in TvZ and TvP.
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make feedback do 100 energy max too in my humble opinion
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On May 05 2011 17:01 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 16:53 Belisarius wrote:
Because it's one unit. Saying "I have no counter to MMMGV" has no counter is an entirely different thing to saying "I have no counter to thors." A composition of five different units should be impossible to counter. A single unit should not. The fact is that it's possible to have make pretty much nothing but thors and get your 50% chance of victory.
Personally, I think it's a fairly silly change - at the very least, 150 energy for strike cannons is an absurdly large number - but there's no way your comparison between thors and a composition as complex as MMMGV is valid. True, that's a very good point. I did oversimplify things, my bad. However, most people weren't actually complaining about pure thors, and those who did were flat-out wrong, because pure thors absolutely do die to a number of things. Rather, most people were complaining that thors with support don't auto-die to Protoss unit x. I'm sure anyone who's been paying attention to this thread can recall a handful of times when someone recommends carriers or magic boxed void rays as a counter and is told "no, because the stimmed marines with the thors kill them". And if someone then said that HTs would help to kill the marines, that would be shot down because the Terran obviously has ghosts to EMP them first. And you can't assassinate the ghosts with DTs because he has ravens too. And you can't shoot down the ravens because blah blah blah you get the picture. So yes, pure thor being countered does happen and it isn't a bad thing. My post probably should have been talking more about 'thor-based compositions' rather than just 'thors'. I'll edit that in a second.
I need to stop editing my posts after I've said something.
The issue I think is that thors synergise spectacularly well with a unit which is spectacularly cheap. Marine-thor is not a lot more difficult to make than mass thor, as you don't need a lot of rines to make thors trash VRays. This is a side-effect of the fact that thors do surprisingly well even against boxed VRays and carriers - they don't win, but they do far, far better than pretty much any other unit in the game versus its designated counter.
So, for thor 'rine, there's really two things going on here. The only real way to kill pure thor is with a nearly-equivalent value army of heavy toss air, which takes a more or less equivalent time to build. So far so good.
But, heavy toss air is hard countered by rines, which are cheap, ubiquitous and train very quickly. The result is that we need to counter the thors and the rines seperately, but the only good rine counters for toss are also T3; templars and colossi.
So you have a two-unit composition which is exceptionally strong, and requires two different exceptionally high-level tech paths to counter. 'Rine thor is certainly better than pure thor, but I'd argue it's still a lot simpler than MMMGV, despite being at least as difficult to beat.
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On May 05 2011 13:57 rS.eZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
yeah dude protoss are doing so good vs zerg lately right? All of IdrA's wins vs Protoss were cheese. He said so himself. Zerg still has no counter to FF. Only roaches.
jesus stop taking what idra says so seriously, yes he's good but it is known he's just a HUGE whiner
so quit bringing his opinion up it's always super biased
he'd lose 10% of his ZvPs and he'd find a way to say it's imbalanced and he's just godly and everybody else is just bad
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There is a reason it's called a test realm. If people that think any of the changes are bad, why not go to the ptr and test the shit out of it. If you are right and enough people do it, Blizzard might revoke the change you disagree with.
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On May 05 2011 17:20 nihlon wrote:
There is a reason it's called a test realm. If people that think any of the changes are bad, why not go to the ptr and test the shit out of it. If you are right and enough people do it, Blizzard might revoke the change you disagree with.
What's the point in testing dumb things ?
Thor were not even standard strategy yet, it was just the beginning of their use and still blizzard already patch it.
ZvP is fucked up since a few month and they do nothing.
Tweaking bunker for the 1500502 time, like it has any impact on the game.
Things are getting old.
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Reduce the deploy time and undeploy time of the strike cannon by 1 second (its 2 seconds atm) and increase the range of 250mm to 9.
Then it would be worth the ridiculous amount of energy it needs.
150 is more than the Yamato but nowhere near as good.
100 energy seems more fair, still takes a long time as you can't upgrade Thor energy, but if you then do end up with 200 energy Thors, atleast that would have some use other than waiting for them to get hit by Feedback.
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On May 05 2011 17:34 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2011 17:20 nihlon wrote:
There is a reason it's called a test realm. If people that think any of the changes are bad, why not go to the ptr and test the shit out of it. If you are right and enough people do it, Blizzard might revoke the change you disagree with. What's the point in testing dumb things ? Thor were not even standard strategy yet, it was just the beginning of their use and still blizzard already patch it. ZvP is fucked up since a few month and they do nothing. Tweaking bunker for the 1500502 time, like it has any impact on the game. Things are getting old.
If never seen you contribute to anything besides whine about protoss, it's quite sad.
Overall the best approach would be in my opinion to cut the spell.
Right now i can only see 3 uses for it, one would be the ultralisk.
But ultralisks won't get stunned, and the cannon does less dps then the basic attack, so it's pointless.
Against Colossus, to stun them
Against Immortal. The only real effective unit against thors because of their shield and damage.
Only Protoss unit besides Carrier that do decently and are cost effective.
Besides those 3 uses, i cant really find a way where i think the spell could be effective.
If the patch goes through, it will make thors more vulnerable and way easier to counter.
You could go immortal + ht and deal ridiculously amounts of damage.
If you cut the spell, immortal could be used effectively. So to nullify them as best as you can, you have to get ghosts. Which the protoss has to respond by getting templars or to accept that his units day way faster.
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EPT
