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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong. It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. | ||
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aderum
Sweden1459 Posts
On May 05 2011 17:43 dzieciol001 wrote: never mind my bad High level zergs have already said that this is a good thing, b/c now the infestors wont run in front of you army when you are moving forward. Look at the latest Stotg, idrA think its a good thing. Stop qq edit: ah well, he changes his statement  | ||
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Ezekyle
Australia607 Posts
On May 05 2011 17:17 Belisarius wrote: I need to stop editing my posts after I've said something. The issue I think is that thors synergise spectacularly well with a unit which is spectacularly cheap. Marine-thor is not a lot more difficult to make than mass thor, as you don't need a lot of rines to make thors trash VRays. This is a side-effect of the fact that thors do surprisingly well even against boxed VRays and carriers - they don't win, but they do far, far better than pretty much any other unit in the game versus its designated counter. So, for thor 'rine, there's really two things going on here. The only real way to kill pure thor is with a nearly-equivalent value army of heavy toss air, which takes a more or less equivalent time to build. So far so good. But, heavy toss air is hard countered by rines, which are cheap, ubiquitous and train very quickly. The result is that we need to counter the thors and the rines seperately, but the only good rine counters for toss are also T3; templars and colossi. So you have a two-unit composition which is exceptionally strong, and requires two different exceptionally high-level tech paths to counter. 'Rine thor is certainly better than pure thor, but I'd argue it's still a lot simpler than MMMGV, despite being at least as difficult to beat. Perhaps. Nevertheless, the ways to deal with to thor/marine do exist, even if it is carrier/HT/collosus. The issue then becomes not 'thor/marine is unbeatable' but 'how do I get carrier/HT/collosus out in time'. In the past no Zergs worried about void ray/collosus/sentry because it's so absurdly gas-heavy that no one could ever make that in a real game, but then people figured out how to do it and suddenly it's not only practical but the dominant strategy in a matchup. You can't just dismiss every way of handling thor play because you played one game against a strategy you've never seen before and lost. | ||
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
On May 05 2011 16:53 Belisarius wrote: Because it's one unit. Saying "I have no counter to MMMGV" is an entirely different thing to saying "I have no counter to thors." A balanced composition of five different units should be impossible to counter. A single unit is not a balanced composition, and needs a clear counter, which thors don't really have because they can beat their counter if they have strike cannons. That's the whole point. Personally, I think it's a fairly silly change - at the very least, 150 energy for strike cannons is an absurdly large number - but there's no way the comparison is valid. Only thors get destroyed by voidrays/carriers/zealots (pick any). Dont act like mass thors cant get beaten, you need support units for the thors. Thor/marine is way harder though. But tank/marine also has no 'counter' in TvZ. Stop talking like everything counters something and that if it doesnt then it's imbalanced  | ||
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Wyk
314 Posts
On May 05 2011 17:14 dogmatix wrote: make feedback do 100 energy max too in my humble opinion Hey guys, dont skip this post! | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
Then make EMP single target and do damage equal to the amount of energy burned, then everyone can play the same race and the game will be balanced. | ||
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dogmatix
Australia339 Posts
On May 05 2011 18:10 Dingobloo wrote: Then make EMP single target and do damage equal to the amount of energy burned, then everyone can play the same race and the game will be balanced. I'm not suggesting it to make it identical to EMP, I just think it would preserve feedback the way it is now without instantly decimating Thors and Battlecruisers which in my opinion is stupid. it would still insta-kill infestors (i believe)? and completely shut down medivac drops and ghosts trying to EMP (it should insta-kill a ghost with >175 energy still? i think?) | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6233 Posts
On May 05 2011 18:00 Deadlyfish wrote: Only thors get destroyed by voidrays/carriers/zealots (pick any). Dont act like mass thors cant get beaten, you need support units for the thors. Thor/marine is way harder though. But tank/marine also has no 'counter' in TvZ. Stop talking like everything counters something and that if it doesnt then it's imbalanced Not every unit counters something, but every unit has to have a counter, If it doesn't, then it is unbalanced. I feel like this change would have been a really positive thing if EMP still stripped max energy. Since it doesn't, it's very hard for T to stop at least a double handful of thors getting feedbacked if toss makes that a priority, and so thors are now crap. But then non-KA templars are useless. I feel like I talk about little else these days, but removing KA completely screwed up PvT. Bring KA back with +15 instead of +25 Un-nerf EMP Strike cannon to 100, with energy Nerf colossi ...and you have a pretty entertaining interplay. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On May 05 2011 17:52 aderum wrote: High level zergs have already said that this is a good thing, b/c now the infestors wont run in front of you army when you are moving forward. Look at the latest Stotg, idrA think its a good thing. Stop qq edit: ah well, he changes his statement It's definitely not a good thing at all. Someone can remark that it's a beneficial situation when you a-move them and they stay further back, but fact is that's the only benefit, and that's only if you're a bad or terrible player (or playing bad). For absolutely all other situations, it's bad. Zerg were having a terrible time keeping their infestors alive in the first place, with units like marauder, siege tank, colossus, blink stalker, and even marines and hellions just ripping them apart in various scenarios— be it running away when your main army died, attacking, or harassing. The weak 90 health of infestors already made them very vulnerable, but now they are even more weak. While I think it's fine that infestors could have 2.25 speed in a perfect world, since it makes a bit more sense to me, the perfect world would also give infestor an HP buff, and not have neural parasite (or even IT) be such trashy skill. | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
On May 05 2011 18:00 Deadlyfish wrote: Only thors get destroyed by voidrays/carriers/zealots (pick any). Dont act like mass thors cant get beaten, you need support units for the thors. Thor/marine is way harder though. But tank/marine also has no 'counter' in TvZ. Stop talking like everything counters something and that if it doesnt then it's imbalanced you forgot DT also. Oh well, back to pre 1.1.2 Thor... | ||
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Shimeone
Belgium16 Posts
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that Infestor don't need nerf or buff or whatever, just don't understand why they change movement speed. In fact, i just don't care, as a zerg player. If armies are stacked and go for a frontal battle, they will be less on frontline, letting glings and roach walk easier in front of them. If units are running after them, they can use Fungal Growth to run away. If they don't have energy to save their ass well... 2.5 speed or 2.25 speed is just the same, they gonna die, especially agaisnt stimpacked marines or blink stalkers. I don't think movement speed is an issue for that kind of unit. | ||
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Gulzt
Netherlands275 Posts
On May 05 2011 19:10 Shimeone wrote: I don't get the speed reduce for Infestor. Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that Infestor don't need nerf or buff or whatever, just don't understand why they change movement speed. In fact, i just don't care, as a zerg player. If armies are stacked and go for a frontal battle, they will be less on frontline, letting glings and roach walk easier in front of them. If units are running after them, they can use Fungal Growth to run away. If they don't have energy to save their ass well... 2.5 speed or 2.25 speed is just the same, they gonna die, especially agaisnt stimpacked marines or blink stalkers. I don't think movement speed is an issue for that kind of unit. You answered it yourself.. | ||
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progeny
Sweden43 Posts
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fuzzy_panda
New Zealand1681 Posts
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KMARTRULES
Australia474 Posts
The ghost change is obviously going to help TvP a lot, but i think that overall these changes will hurt terran. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:22 KMARTRULES wrote: I hate to whine about balance, but i think that it is generally accepted that Toss is stronger than terran in TvP. Recently people have been using a lot of mech (Thors in particular) with some success. Kinda bummed out that a largely unexplored strategy that had the potential to put terran back on the level is being nerfed quite hard, as well as the archon buff which affects the standard MMM style which is already sub par. The ghost change is obviously going to help TvP a lot, but i think that overall these changes will hurt terran. Here's my Idea, Maybe this is a push from Blizzard so that we kinda walk away from Bio mech into Bio air. MMMGV+ Some Battlecruisers or something | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On May 05 2011 20:22 KMARTRULES wrote: I hate to whine about balance, but i think that it is generally accepted that Toss is stronger than terran in TvP. I think you'll find opinion is rather neatly divided - probably between Terran and Protoss players. Personally, I think that the Thor change is uncalled for, but that is why it is a PTR. If Blizzard just want to see what happens, I'm all for that. I think we only have cause for whining when it becomes a proper patch. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
I hate to whine about balance, but i think that it is generally accepted that Toss is stronger than terran in TvP Interestingly, there have been multiple statistical analysis done on this, and the P>T thing turns out to be a myth--if anything, virtually every analysis shows that on the pro level T have a slight edge over P.. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On May 05 2011 21:03 awesomoecalypse wrote: Interestingly, there have been multiple statistical analysis done on this, and the P>T thing turns out to be a myth--if anything, virtually every analysis shows that on the pro level T have a slight edge over P.. Well on the Pro level Terran usually has a the stronger hero roster | ||
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Rorschach
United States623 Posts
Yes lets gimp the toss spell caster even more. WHY would they ever make feedback only take 100 energy? Because the ghost drains max 100? Don't forget that the EMP drains mana/sheilds and is AOE whereas feedback targets a SINGLE unit. Make it area of effect like EMP and I will agree with you until then quite spouting nonsensical ideas... | ||
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