EPTWhat's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0...
Performance Enhancing Drug in Starcraft 2? Yes. - Page 24
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Horuku
United States405 Posts
What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0... | ||
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x89
United Kingdom276 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:37 Horuku wrote: It's a slippery slope if you ban it. What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Indeed. I also think it's genuinely not viable though. Some tournaments span days - you'd have to take a piss test right before you play and even then a pro might not take it before a group stage he was very likely to get through and take the drug before the later stages. I'm not sure how long it remains in the system for. That and look at the NASL, people don't go to one location so it's just impossible to test every of the 50 players in it. | ||
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GagnarTheUnruly
United States655 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:29 TreDawg wrote:First off, Adderral isn't illegal and a lot of performance enhancing substances like nootropics and vitamins aren't either. 2nd, the whole point of eliminating things like this is to remove an "unfair advantage" but why are drugs an unfair advantage and practice isn't? They both produce an advantage over someone who someone who doesn't utilize it. Why is one unfair and the other isn't? You also completely ignored the portion where I talk about diet and how it affects your mental and physical stamina. Is that an unfair advantage as well? Fatty foods are known to increase your ability to focus and concentrate. Some people, like vegetarians, don't get a lot of essential nutrients that can make their bodies inefficient and thus, worse at concentrating for long periods of time. On April 19 2011 03:20 Neo.NEt wrote:I've never seen so many ignorant people in one thread...a lot of you are just disregarding this without even thinking about it b/c you think it sounds stupid. If you've never taken adderall, then your opinion on whether or not it makes you better at starcraft doesn't really matter. I'm at work so I can't do this now, but when I get home I'll open up sc2 gears and look at my apm/win ratios for my games on adderall vs. the games not on adderall (which will be very easy b/c it's worn off by the time I get home from work and all of my games on the weekends are when I'm on it). I can guarantee my apm is at least 20 or 30 higher and I would bet my win is going to be higher as well for those of you who want to argue that I'm just spamming faster, which I must say would be a good argument. An ends-justify-the-means attitude is both naive and misanthropic and the consequences of such an attitude can be incredibly destructive. There are a lot of ways players can ensure they have an advantage. Some are legitimate, and others are cheating. So what if drugs improve their APM or concentration. Are we going to accept drug use as a legitimate stand-in for hard work and practice? How about knee-capping your opponents? Or hacking? Besides, there are a lot of little kids playing pro-level SC. Do you really want pro gaming to be an environment where 15 yo kids have to start abusing amphetamines to be competitive? | ||
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thebigdonkey
United States354 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:37 Horuku wrote: It's a slippery slope if you ban it. What's next, going to ban people from listening to trance music while playing because it helps them focus? Or banning people that take multivitamins which give them a boost of energy? Hell, might as well ban people from working out too because that increases their SC2 concentration o,0... Rofl what a terrible comparison. You're comparing something that specifically CHEMICALLY ALTERS your brain state with music? | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
 can people who do not have medical degrees or performed double blind studies with control groups not spout nonsense about the effectiveness of drugs. *It has been proven time and time again that amphetamines do not improve reaction time* - the perception is that the opposite is true. I love drugs they make you realise that the world is simply your perception of it and the whole of reality is a shared experience. The only bad thing about drugs is the laws that makes you a criminal for using them - ironic as most people against them are religious yet god made them ... do drugs improve performance? YEAH in some ways whilst at the same time diminishing in others. If you take amphetamines of course you are hyper and click like a madman ... the tradeoff is that you memory is worse, you learn less and you cannot follow a single train of thought for as long. Maybe that will win in SC2 as a lot of the game is internalised however if you end up playing a wierd game you will have more problems adapting. But tbh why do we think amphetamines are bad yet taking glucose is acceptable? That is WIERD as both cause organ failure over time.; The real problem is that alcohol and marujuana are not exactly performance enhancing but would also have to be banned ... what about salbutamol that is used to treat asthma? Some people need that to breathe yet you are excluding them on medical grounds? The issue is not possible to resolve ... the real problem will come when people are taking drugs just to get on a level playing field which then leads to a situation where peopel are causing harm to themselves to be bale to compete. That cannot be a good situation. As such even an open minded liberal like me who opposes all forms of prohibition would say you are best of not allowing them in professional environments unless dosages can be accuratley measured. The problem then is you can modify substances and so it goes on and on. **The key thing though is protecting the players.** | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
There simply isn't a directly measurable thing that these drugs do. It isn't like steroids where you can point at muscle and know that strength gives an advantage. So all we have left is a big show of faking drug test results and constantly finding alternatives, as you simply can't ban all stimulants like coffee. There will always be a way to get around drug tests and thankfully since e-sports success isn't based on strength and muscle size, we should just allow all drugs. | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:42 thebigdonkey wrote: Rofl what a terrible comparison. You're comparing something that specifically CHEMICALLY ALTERS your brain state with music? I am pretty sure that if the music truly does allow you to focus better, then it is indeed altering your brain chemistry. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:32 Treemonkeys wrote: That's not a legit comparison, at all. You are used to taking it and playing with it, of course you are going to play worse without it. Sounds like you even take it for work and on weekends which is a little extreme, so your body will be going through withdrawal (regardless of if you recognize this withdrawal or not) when you are not on it which is why you can't play as well. You have to compare a healthy person who does not used adderall at all to someone like yourself to get any objective result. It's like comparing a drunk person to the same person with a hangover and saying "see, I play better drunk!", though not as extreme. I take it at like 8 in the morning and I get home to play at like 6-7 at night... how is that not a fair comparison? What do you think once the adderall wears off I can barely function or something? I bet you have an easy time making friends... "compare a healthy person to someone like yourself" and "which is a little extreme".... glad you know enough about me to make these claims. | ||
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Neo.NEt
United States785 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:41 GagnarTheUnruly wrote: An ends-justify-the-means attitude is both naive and misanthropic and the consequences of such an attitude can be incredibly destructive. There are a lot of ways players can ensure they have an advantage. Some are legitimate, and others are cheating. So what if drugs improve their APM or concentration. Are we going to accept drug use as a legitimate stand-in for hard work and practice? How about knee-capping your opponents? Or hacking? Besides, there are a lot of little kids playing pro-level SC. Do you really want pro gaming to be an environment where 15 yo kids have to start abusing amphetamines to be competitive? I didn't say anything about taking it being right or wrong, just that it makes you better. | ||
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HyperLimen
United States278 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:50 skipdog172 wrote: I am pretty sure that if the music truly does allow you to focus better, then it is indeed altering your brain chemistry. Music can trigger physiological responses by your body and nervous system. You know how you get chills down your spine from certain songs ? I'll save the science lesson and just point out how ignorant you are for saying that is a terrible comparison. My main problem with this thread is that the poll question singles out stimulants. Depressants can effect performance just as much if not more than stimulants. Other than that, I think it is too grey of an area to enforce any actual policy in. With the myriad of mental conditions being added to reference books each year, eventually you will have people with new 'disorders' or 'conditions' litigating with claims of discrimination etc. if they are not allowed to participate because of taking a Rx. While nice in theory, the whole idea is impractical. Personally I think that in a non-physical competition like e-sports, players should be able to consume any drug that they wish. There simply isn't a directly measurable thing that these drugs do. It isn't like steroids where you can point at muscle and know that strength gives an advantage. So all we have left is a big show of faking drug test results and constantly finding alternatives, as you simply can't ban all stimulants like coffee. There will always be a way to get around drug tests and thankfully since e-sports success isn't based on strength and muscle size, we should just allow all drugs. Actually there are ways to measure the chemical effect that drugs have on a person, but the perceived effect by the individual taking it is what will vary. | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
Of course music has en effect on physiology, however music involves vibrations of air that occur constantly. Ingesting an amphetamine usually involes a chemical that was produced in a factory with the intention of simulating the same results from music. There is a big difference because the effect that music can have is nothing like the devestating effect ingesting chemicals can have. The choice of listening to a particular song carries no risk of death unless you also tweak other environmental factors. | ||
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ziggurat
Canada847 Posts
Here is a news story from a few years ago: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1092826/Cambridge-professor-calls-healthy-adults-use-Ritalin-boost-brain-power.html Here is a link to the full article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7223/full/456702a.html And here is the conclusion of the article, which seems like a sensible assessment to me: Like all new technologies, cognitive enhancement can be used well or poorly. We should welcome new methods of improving our brain function. In a world in which human workspans and lifespans are increasing, cognitive enhancement tools — including the pharmacological — will be increasingly useful for improved quality of life and extended work productivity, as well as to stave off normal and pathological age-related cognitive declines23. Safe and effective cognitive enhancers will benefit both the individual and society. But it would also be foolish to ignore problems that such use of drugs could create or exacerbate. With this, as with other technologies, we need to think and work hard to maximize its benefits and minimize its harms. | ||
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thebigdonkey
United States354 Posts
On April 19 2011 03:50 skipdog172 wrote: I am pretty sure that if the music truly does allow you to focus better, then it is indeed altering your brain chemistry. Oh in that case we should ban music too. Also, working a 9-5 should be illegal because it lets you get money just like robbing a bank does. | ||
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SoulScream
Bulgaria44 Posts
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acie
United States247 Posts
I read the question as - Should we violate a person's right to privacy because they are playing sc2 professionally? | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On April 19 2011 04:27 ziggurat wrote: There are a lot of issues surrounding the use of drugs that enhance cognitive skills. There is a serious debate going on in the medical community about it. However in my opinion the genie is out of the bottle and too many people are already using these drugs for anyone to ban them at this point. Here is a news story from a few years ago: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1092826/Cambridge-professor-calls-healthy-adults-use-Ritalin-boost-brain-power.html Here is a link to the full article: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v456/n7223/full/456702a.html And here is the conclusion of the article, which seems like a sensible assessment to me: Like all new technologies, cognitive enhancement can be used well or poorly. We should welcome new methods of improving our brain function. In a world in which human workspans and lifespans are increasing, cognitive enhancement tools — including the pharmacological — will be increasingly useful for improved quality of life and extended work productivity, as well as to stave off normal and pathological age-related cognitive declines23. Safe and effective cognitive enhancers will benefit both the individual and society. But it would also be foolish to ignore problems that such use of drugs could create or exacerbate. With this, as with other technologies, we need to think and work hard to maximize its benefits and minimize its harms. The scientific (and especially the pharmaceutical!) community regularly bandwagons on things like this. Amphetamines were prescribed like candy back in the 80s for virtually anything because they were the hot new drug on the block. The truth is natural is almost invariably better in the long term; anyone with a fairly good understanding of human physiology should be able to see why. | ||
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Garmer
1286 Posts
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Vaelestrasz
United States4 Posts
As far as Adderall goes, it would be unfair to to ban the use of that drug because the people who have ADD do legitimately need it to concentrate. Now I do realize how easy it is to get a script of Adderall even if you don't need it.. but think about it...if it's banned than people who do need it for their ADD are at a disadvantage. Eyeglasses make a person's vision better right? Should glasses be banned based on that fact? No. Because glasses are only necessary to help a person whose vision is impaired, much like Adderall is really only necessary to help people who have ADD and whose ability to concentrate it impaired. And Adderall isn't necessarily going to help any Starcraft player who takes it. Sure it enhances concentration but so does caffeine. I think being calm and relaxed before a match would be more advantageous for a player than being all tweaked out and finicky from Adderall. But it'd be a matter of personal preference considering Adderall can affect different people in different ways. But here's the punchline... Caffeine IS A DRUG(FACT) that is proven to enhance concentration(FACT). That being said, shouldn't caffeine be banned based on the fact that when a person uses it they can have an advantage over someone who doesn't use it? What about tobacco? Nicotine IS A DRUG that is proven to calm nerves and enhance concentration. If a player were to smoke a cigarette before a match to calm his nerves, wouldn't that drug give him an advantage over a person who doesn't smoke because the person who doesn't smoke would have to manage his nerves naturally without assistance from a drug? When it comes down to it there's simply too many holes in the logic behind banning Adderall. For this to be logically sound, every single drug in existence (including weed, adderall, caffeine, nicotine, alcohol, etc, etc..) would have to be included in the screening because one could claim that any type of drug could somehow give someone an "unfair advantage." | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On April 19 2011 04:47 acie wrote: to enforce this you would really have to violate everyone's rights pretty badly and it just isn't worth it considering they are legal drugs and players aren't making much money anyway compared to other sports. I don't really think they give an unfair advantage anyway, but others can discuss that. I read the question as - Should we violate a person's right to privacy because they are playing sc2 professionally? They're legal for prescription holders, not for the rest of us (at least in most countries). If the league policy wound up being that using these drugs for non-medical reasons warranted disqualification, and the player agreed to that, then yes, absolutely. Obviously they'd have to discuss players with specific medical needs on a case by case basis. As far as I know, that would be new territory, unless someone knows of a condition a person might have that would require a prescribed steroid treatment and leave them in the physical condition to be a professional athlete. But either way, there needs to be concrete, numerical evidence in support of the hypothesis that using amphetamine based cognitive enhancers actually precipitates higher win percentages within the context of Starcraft 2. Without that, there really isn't a serious conversation to be had. | ||
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SKC
Brazil18828 Posts
On April 19 2011 04:29 thebigdonkey wrote: Oh in that case we should ban music too. Also, working a 9-5 should be illegal because it lets you get money just like robbing a bank does. It is a horrible comparison, but not exactly because of that. Why are drugs banned in any respectable sport? Because it gives an unfair advantage to those who use it AND are harmfull to the players, so everyone taking them to be on equal ground would be ridiculous. If taking a shower before a game helps you focus it's also not bannable in any other sport. On April 19 2011 05:10 robopork wrote: They're legal for prescription holders, not for the rest of us (at least in most countries). If the league policy wound up being that using these drugs for non-medical reasons warranted disqualification, and the player agreed to that, then yes, absolutely. Obviously they'd have to discuss players with specific medical needs on a case by case basis. As far as I know, that would be new territory, unless someone knows of a condition a person might have that would require a prescribed steroid treatment and leave them in the physical condition to be a professional athlete. But either way, there needs to be concrete, numerical evidence in support of the hypothesis that using amphetamine based cognitive enhancers actually precipitates higher win percentages within the context of Starcraft 2. Without that, there really isn't a serious conversation to be had. This happens in every other sport, drugs are never allowed, prescription or not. If the medicine is necessary, and there is no other avaible option, I believe that person can't be an athlete. And there are plenty of drugs with no definitive proof in the context of every sport that are still banned. I guess the question should be what makes StarCraft diferent than any other sport? | ||
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