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I love the finals for this very reason, this discussion. I've been saying since beta that forcefields are the most broken ability in the game, from a zerg players point of view.
And I'm going to call it - Forcefields will get a nerf, one way or another. Be it Queens getting massive unit status, them having health instead of a timer, max 1 forcefield per sentry at a time, it's going to happen. It's clear how broken it is when you can cut off zerg's production in half just by placing it on a ramp. Something is going to have to change, there's not much the zerg race can do at the moment, tech lair and get a nydus JUST IN CASE? no, something else please.
I've lost so many games on DQ due to that bs.
I think such abilities, like the ones you described OP, have no place in starcraft.
Sucks that one ability can more or less shut down your opponents micro completely.
What's next, an ability to punch your opponent in the face over the internet?
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On March 19 2011 19:56 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:51 Dommk wrote:
Indeed, too bad some people here are incapable of seeing it. By the time July realized it, it was over. MC pulled it off brilliantly though, he had that thing planned out down to the very last second Nexus cancel. He didn't even miss a warp gate timing (he was warping in units inside his main). he even hid the units when that zergling scout was about to see them July could have gotten the sign, when he saw very few units during the expand. A scouting overlord could have given him that information, but he didn't...
Cross positions Metalopolis = no chance of scouting overlord. MC even abused this fact by placing his gateways in such a position so that no overlord would have been able to scout it.
Game 1 MC just played an amazingly abusive game by exploiting Zerg's lack of scouting ability and the fact that forcefields, if done right, can deny reinforcements from the opponent's main as long as you want.
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On March 19 2011 19:51 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:35 Avanar1 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:14 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. He got outraced. You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time. The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter. it obviously wasnt the perfect time then and to all the ppl saying give it health...no because toss need FF to survive from stim pushes how r u going to hold off a stim push wen terran can kill ur FF? Doesn't this say more about Protoss being a broken race than anything else? ?
Yep, Protoss is broken since gateway units suck so hard. I am okay with the way it is, but as I stated above: Give us strong and fierce zealots and stalkers that can stick up to marines and marauders and you can have your colossi, HTs, Warpgate and FF nerfed all they way you want.
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the point about ff being in sc2 from the beta on.
hmmm im trying hard to remember the early days of the beta and the subsequent official release but from what i remember ff wasnt used to the abusive amount it is now, at least thats what i recall, since builds like 3gate expand that revolve around heavy sentry use didnt evolve right from the start. in addition, this doesnt change a thing about the fact that it irs really strong and too readily accessible.
but the thread does not only revolve around the ff alone, though id say that this is the ability most players have a lot of trouble with since it is not really negatable and very easy to pull off. a lot of people say that it is NOT easy to pull off and you have to place perfect forcefields. for one i dont think that forcefielding yours or the opponents ramp is really very difficult. in addition yes in some cases it might be difficult but casting perfect forcefields is simply not necessary and its is definitely not an art in itself. its really not like its boxerisque micro that is required to lay them down. especially because no matter what you can always spam more of them even if, for instance, the lings managed to slip by them and have actually reached your troops, youre free to go ahead and lay down some more ON your own units to heavily reduce the surface area.
the longer i think about it it seems that forcefields were only implemented because during the design process, blizzard foresaw that with the new abilities to produce faster, strike faster,earlier and in greater numbers in the early game ( larva inject, chronoboost, mules ) which led to such "great" strategies as 3 rax, 4gate, speedling allin/roachpush) they decided that ff would be necessary for protoss players to be able to protect themselves from just such early game agression. terran players can of course bunker down and be safe, which kinda leaves zerg out in the open but meh, zerg being left out in the open to fend for themselves and taking the brunt of everything without any special gimmicks and abilities is nothign new :-D
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On March 19 2011 19:52 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't play sc2, and thus am not aware of the exact timing windows, but can't Zerg players use Mutas to snipe Sentries the same way BW Zergs tend to get a group of Mutas to snipe HTs?
I know Sentries come earlier in tech, but is it possible to get enough Mutas to be able to one-shot them one by one (similar to picking off Medics vs. Terran in BW too) without flat-out dying to something else? Mutas seem like a decent unit ZvP wise to me (e.g. to exert map control), so their use wouldn't be limited to just countering Sentries.
The only time forcefields are 'broken' is the time before drop is out. Banelings dropped from overlords kill sentries so laughably cost effective its awesome. Muta's aren't that strong versus sentries because of guardian shield, and the possible stalker buddy's with them. Overlords however don't care about guardian shields.
The only way to stop an MC style gateway push is to build a metric shit-ton of spinecrawlers, because there isn't any zerg unit aside from the upgraded hydra that can hit if the forcefields are placed correctly, so you have to build static D that has the range and non-pushed-away advantage to overcome the forcefield problem.
The trick is to scout 100% of the time. You need to know where his army is, what his army consists of, and how big it is to be able to build a sufficient counter to a protoss push. If you slip up on scouting just 2 percent, you're totally screwed because the timings of the units hatching/spinecrawlers finishing are completely turned around.
Spinecrawlers counter gateway armies. Unless the stalkers have blink and can get past the spines. But by then you should have a sufficient amount of zerglings to kill the stalkers while the sentries stand by idly outside of the base.
Though having queens being massive ( and archons too for that matter ) would be pretty sweet. Because I gotta say FF on my ramp is pretty BS.
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This would make it completely impossible to do an early push against Z as P. I find it funny that people don't understand how necessary FF is for a gateway army to be effective at all vs. anything T or Z has.
Well early game zerg has usually one or two queens. The protoss can kill the queen if it comes to the front to break the force field. If the protoss has a few sentries force fields can still be effective but the zerg have an option to deal with it. I'm looking at it like a defenders advantage like Terrans have with their wall in.
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Cross positions Metalopolis = no chance of scouting overlord. MC even abused this fact by placing his gateways in such a position so that no overlord would have been able to scout it.
Game 1 MC just played an amazingly abusive game by exploiting Zerg's lack of scouting ability and the fact that forcefields, if done right, can deny reinforcements from the opponent's main as long as you want.
Lack of Scouting ability? MC's strategy only worked because he let July scout his natural numerous times until the very last second of the Nexus completing.
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On March 19 2011 19:14 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. He got outraced. You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time. The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter.
His units weren't out at the exact perfect time since they got FF'd inside his base? Duh? Losing.
Did he forget that MC had sentries or something? Seriously, think before you post. He reacted late and was FF'd in his base. It's as simple as that. You think MC put up his nexus and then canceled it for no reason? Of course not, July saw the expo and didn't make units until he saw MC coming. Not only did MC have more units than he thought but July didn't think he was going to move out that fast thus the units from his main weren't down the ramp before the battle ensued which is why he got beat.
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I'm just going to restate once, because people need to acknowledge it, before I leave the thread: July snarfed it up, at least in the final game.
He attacked with roaches and even hydras off creep
vs.
blink stalker sentry
after
he already knew MC was using really heavy FF play in the previous games
What is the result of that, I wonder? 0 losses for P maybe? I'd hope so, because Z just made a HUGE GAME LOSING MISTAKE.
July fucked up. He's great, but he fucked up badly.
FF is required for a gateway army to be cost effective vs. anything T or Z can make, at any point in the game. The problem with FF is that players forget they need to know how to use positioning to not lose.
When you make mistakes, you SHOULD be able to be punished. Z has speedlings, T has concussive shells and stim, P has forcefields. That's how the game works.
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On March 19 2011 19:55 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:51 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change. But MC didn't have equal economy, he stopped making probes and completely faked july out. He was warping in units inside his base, he made the entire thing look like a regular 3 gate expand and July reacted as if it were a 3gate expand, when he realized it was over. This is like Protoss forge fast expanding then seing a hatchery going down at the Zergs natural, but the Zerg cancles it after the scouting probe dies then proceeds to 1base quick Nydus/Roach all-in. In that situation the Nydus all-in will come out much faster than he would ever expect it and if he waits until the Nydus worm going down in his base to react, then he losses the game.
I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation.
And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg.
I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title.
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FF is required for a gateway army to be cost effective vs. anything T or Z can make, at any point in the game. The problem with FF is that players forget they need to know how to use positioning to not lose.
When you make mistakes, you SHOULD be able to be punished. Z has speedlings, T has concussive shells and stim, P has forcefields. That's how the game works.
^
People need to learn that you can't engage an army wherever. In game 1 July engaged in as close of a choke as it's going to get. Sure, he was pretty much forced to engage there, but half of that was due to MC's sneaky build. And there was no flanking whatsoever. What do you expect when you engage in a choke against Sentries with units that have less range?
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On March 19 2011 20:04 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:55 Dommk wrote:On March 19 2011 19:51 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change. But MC didn't have equal economy, he stopped making probes and completely faked july out. He was warping in units inside his base, he made the entire thing look like a regular 3 gate expand and July reacted as if it were a 3gate expand, when he realized it was over. This is like Protoss forge fast expanding then seing a hatchery going down at the Zergs natural, but the Zerg cancles it after the scouting probe dies then proceeds to 1base quick Nydus/Roach all-in. In that situation the Nydus all-in will come out much faster than he would ever expect it and if he waits until the Nydus worm going down in his base to react, then he losses the game. I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation. And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg. I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title.
Yet, if he couldn't have FF'd the ramp, he would have lost the game, even though his strategy was genius, and July totally fell for it.
Meaning, if FF weren't that good, July would have won, which would be completely fucking retarded.
FF is balanced QED.
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Mabye, they need to make the forcefield cant stack on eatch other. So protoss need to place the forcefield perfect or they give gaps in between. Because I think giving forcefield health is not going to work, because the battles are going so fast in sc2.
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On March 19 2011 20:04 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation.
And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg.
I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title.
Cutting off half of a Zerg's production isn't a problem because getting there is nearly impossible. If you somehow manage to do it, you should win because that's what the entire strat is based around. You can't exactly just run a Sentry across the map and hit F.
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On March 19 2011 20:04 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:55 Dommk wrote:On March 19 2011 19:51 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change. But MC didn't have equal economy, he stopped making probes and completely faked july out. He was warping in units inside his base, he made the entire thing look like a regular 3 gate expand and July reacted as if it were a 3gate expand, when he realized it was over. This is like Protoss forge fast expanding then seing a hatchery going down at the Zergs natural, but the Zerg cancles it after the scouting probe dies then proceeds to 1base quick Nydus/Roach all-in. In that situation the Nydus all-in will come out much faster than he would ever expect it and if he waits until the Nydus worm going down in his base to react, then he losses the game. I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation. And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg. I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title.
You don't look for a Nydus you don't even know that is going up, you prepare for it, pylons at appropriate places. July prepared for Protoss going 3gate expand but when he found out it wasn't, MC;s units where already on his half of the map
But as the poster above me said, getting to the point where you can just force field a ramp against someone who is prepared for it is next to impossible, otherwise we would see it soo much more often
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On March 19 2011 20:06 Buddhist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:04 mathemagician1986 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:55 Dommk wrote:On March 19 2011 19:51 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change. But MC didn't have equal economy, he stopped making probes and completely faked july out. He was warping in units inside his base, he made the entire thing look like a regular 3 gate expand and July reacted as if it were a 3gate expand, when he realized it was over. This is like Protoss forge fast expanding then seing a hatchery going down at the Zergs natural, but the Zerg cancles it after the scouting probe dies then proceeds to 1base quick Nydus/Roach all-in. In that situation the Nydus all-in will come out much faster than he would ever expect it and if he waits until the Nydus worm going down in his base to react, then he losses the game. I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation. And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg. I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title. Yet, if he couldn't have FF'd the ramp, he would have lost the game, even though his strategy was genius, and July totally fell for it. Meaning, if FF weren't that good, July would have won, which would be completely fucking retarded. FF is balanced QED.
o_O. that makes like no sense on so many levels. amazing...
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IdrA stopped Whitera's 4 gate at IEM, even admitting he thought Whitera was going a standard 3 gate expand, he just had most his roaches pop at the bottom natural and targeted Whitera's sentry's with he's Roaches down the ramp. Don't even know why people are trying to use the MC vs July match as an example, July didn't even scout that MC canceled, MC built nothing on the low ground and July should have been more suspicious. If he had scouted that as soon as it was canceled he would've just been able to pop down 1-2 spines with roaches.
In close positions you should already be wary of shit like that happening and try save larvae to pump out roaches.
Again, stupid to bring this match up just now when this 4 gate was used months ago, and yet no one complained, even before the 1 gas 4 gate.
And nerfing FFs will be a hard task considering if Blizzard do, then they'll probably need to nerf early Terran pushes, then that will lead to Blizzard needing to nerf other things to. It's harder than what people think.
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On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :|
In every single game that MC won, he killed July way before burrow ever came into effect. The one game he actually was able to obtain burrow half his army was already dead and there was no way in hell he was getting movement in time as well.
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On March 19 2011 20:08 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:06 Buddhist wrote:On March 19 2011 20:04 mathemagician1986 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:55 Dommk wrote:On March 19 2011 19:51 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change. But MC didn't have equal economy, he stopped making probes and completely faked july out. He was warping in units inside his base, he made the entire thing look like a regular 3 gate expand and July reacted as if it were a 3gate expand, when he realized it was over. This is like Protoss forge fast expanding then seing a hatchery going down at the Zergs natural, but the Zerg cancles it after the scouting probe dies then proceeds to 1base quick Nydus/Roach all-in. In that situation the Nydus all-in will come out much faster than he would ever expect it and if he waits until the Nydus worm going down in his base to react, then he losses the game. I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation. And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg. I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title. Yet, if he couldn't have FF'd the ramp, he would have lost the game, even though his strategy was genius, and July totally fell for it. Meaning, if FF weren't that good, July would have won, which would be completely fucking retarded. FF is balanced QED. o_O. that makes like no sense on so many levels. amazing...
He meant, if he was one force field too short, or if one force field weren't enough to block off that ramp, those 8-10 roaches would ahve came barreling down the ramp and killed everything that was left regardless of the amount of effort MC put into that strat. MC's sentries were all out of energy at that point, he was relying on newly warped in sentries to keep that ramp blocked (but off 6 gas you can't keep that up) as well
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On March 19 2011 20:03 Buddhist wrote:
He attacked with roaches and even hydras off creep
vs.
blink stalker sentry
after
he already knew MC was using really heavy FF play in the previous games
What is the result of that, I wonder? 0 losses for P maybe? I'd hope so, because Z just made a HUGE GAME LOSING MISTAKE.
Wut, Hydras is the best thing you can expect to have against blink Stalkers. Are you saying a Zerg shouldn't attack until his creep is inside the Protoss base? Which, if you didn't know, equals to never.
Why are you brining his unit composition into this?
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EPT
