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On March 19 2011 20:11 Gigaudas wrote:
Wut, Hydras is the best thing you can expect to have against blink Stalkers. Are you saying a Zerg shouldn't attack until his creep is inside the Protoss base? Which, if you didn't know, equals to never.
Why are you brining his unit composition into this?
Attacking with Hydras is considered to be one of the stupidest things you can do 99% of the time.
Hence attacking off creep into Blink Stalkers with a good number of Sentries is just a bad idea.
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On March 19 2011 19:35 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:30 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:24 Apolo wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting. So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce. Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it. But, dude, don't you see? It was only MC's brilliant and original strategy that caused July to not have units at the bottom of his ramp to defend. Ignoring the fact that it's only because of FF that MC won that game, ignoring the fact that no other race would have been able to do that since it relied on denying reinforcements with FF to work, ignoring the fact that July would have held it since he had enough units without forcefields.... MC won because he's a genius not because his race has a T1 ability that can deny reinforcements from your own main while similtaneously having the ability to negate any rush distance with warp gates.
The races have different abilitys, strengths/weaknesses, you are not the first to discover this. You could as easily say stim won a terran a game, or inject won zerg a game, youre right, so? What bothers me about this thread is that its all a front, you're pretending that the issue with forcefield is that its "anti-micro" solely as an excuse to QQ about forcefield, guess what, FF IS micro, infact its one of the coolest and most interesting abilities in the game which is STILL rarely used optimally, if you don't want stuff like that in the game, then we are talking about creating a very very boring game indeed. You also claim that you cant micro against forcefield, this is not true, a big part of the micro is positioning, in the case of zerg you have burrow micro also, so yes, there are a number of things a player can do to limit the effectiveness of FF.
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On March 19 2011 20:08 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:06 Buddhist wrote:On March 19 2011 20:04 mathemagician1986 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:55 Dommk wrote:On March 19 2011 19:51 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change. But MC didn't have equal economy, he stopped making probes and completely faked july out. He was warping in units inside his base, he made the entire thing look like a regular 3 gate expand and July reacted as if it were a 3gate expand, when he realized it was over. This is like Protoss forge fast expanding then seing a hatchery going down at the Zergs natural, but the Zerg cancles it after the scouting probe dies then proceeds to 1base quick Nydus/Roach all-in. In that situation the Nydus all-in will come out much faster than he would ever expect it and if he waits until the Nydus worm going down in his base to react, then he losses the game. I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation. And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg. I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title. Yet, if he couldn't have FF'd the ramp, he would have lost the game, even though his strategy was genius, and July totally fell for it. Meaning, if FF weren't that good, July would have won, which would be completely fucking retarded. FF is balanced QED. o_O. that makes like no sense on so many levels. amazing...
Er, what? I'm saying MC should have won the game, and the only reason he did win was because of FF. Therefore, if FF were worse, he'd have lost, which would be bad. Therefore the strength of FF is a good thing.
If you seriously think a zerg should be able to hold off a push from P, when he's completely unaware it's coming, and has been playing as if the P was expanding the whole time, then you're biased or stupid.
Like, do you people think Z expansions should be invulnerable? Rofl. Let's just take away the one thing that lets Protoss players attack a Zerg player before the 15 minute mark. That makes sense.
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On March 19 2011 20:07 gdalam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:04 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation.
And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg.
I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title. Cutting off half of a Zerg's production isn't a problem because getting there is nearly impossible. If you somehow manage to do it, you should win because that's what the entire strat is based around. You can't exactly just run a Sentry across the map and hit F.
I think you'd be surprised how many strategies are based on getting to the opponent. It's kinda the point of the game you know, and not exactly hard. When a P is 4 gating he won't have a considerably weaker army than a Zerg, so Z can't really attack full on in the middle of the map (he can bait FFs however). Exactly how is Protoss not supposed to get to the zergs base?
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On March 19 2011 20:03 ThinkAboutIt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:14 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. He got outraced. You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time. The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter. His units weren't out at the exact perfect time since they got FF'd inside his base? Duh? Losing. Did he forget that MC had sentries or something? Seriously, think before you post. He reacted late and was FF'd in his base. It's as simple as that. You think MC put up his nexus and then canceled it for no reason? Of course not, July saw the expo and didn't make units until he saw MC coming. Not only did MC have more units than he thought but July didn't think he was going to move out that fast thus the units from his main weren't down the ramp before the battle ensued which is why he got beat.
You're basically proving my point that forcefield is a broken ability. Not imbalanced, but broken.
The only reason July lost was because his units couldn't get down the ramp. The only reason they couldn't get down the ramp is because of an ability that allows you to wall of your opponent's ramp as long as you want. No amount of skill on July's side would have changed the game unless he was psychic, knew what was coming and thus built units earlier as a result. If July was the best player in the world it wouldn't of mattered.
Any ability which can change the architecture of a map is broken by design. It shouldn't have ever existed. In a game where chokes, ramps etc. are key to defending then having an ability to change the size of these is these is the stupidest thing ever.
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On March 19 2011 20:13 Buddhist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:08 mathemagician1986 wrote:On March 19 2011 20:06 Buddhist wrote:On March 19 2011 20:04 mathemagician1986 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:55 Dommk wrote:On March 19 2011 19:51 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change. But MC didn't have equal economy, he stopped making probes and completely faked july out. He was warping in units inside his base, he made the entire thing look like a regular 3 gate expand and July reacted as if it were a 3gate expand, when he realized it was over. This is like Protoss forge fast expanding then seing a hatchery going down at the Zergs natural, but the Zerg cancles it after the scouting probe dies then proceeds to 1base quick Nydus/Roach all-in. In that situation the Nydus all-in will come out much faster than he would ever expect it and if he waits until the Nydus worm going down in his base to react, then he losses the game. I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation. And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg. I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title. Yet, if he couldn't have FF'd the ramp, he would have lost the game, even though his strategy was genius, and July totally fell for it. Meaning, if FF weren't that good, July would have won, which would be completely fucking retarded. FF is balanced QED. o_O. that makes like no sense on so many levels. amazing... Er, what? I'm saying MC should have won the game, and the only reason he did win was because of FF. Therefore, if FF were worse, he'd have lost, which would be bad. Therefore the strength of FF is a good thing. If you seriously think a zerg should be able to hold off a push from P, when he's completely unaware it's coming, and has been playing as if the P was expanding the whole time, then you're biased or stupid.
I said, I'm not referring to that game in perticular. I showcased a scenario that happens very often in ZvP and has fundamental problems for the Z, which you responded to by stating "logic" that has no relevance to my post. Hence I said it makes no sense.
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On March 19 2011 20:13 gdalam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:11 Gigaudas wrote:
Wut, Hydras is the best thing you can expect to have against blink Stalkers. Are you saying a Zerg shouldn't attack until his creep is inside the Protoss base? Which, if you didn't know, equals to never.
Why are you brining his unit composition into this? Attacking with Hydras is considered to be one of the stupidest things you can do 99% of the time. Hence attacking off creep into Blink Stalkers with a good number of Sentries is just a bad idea.
But then when are you supposed to attack with Hydras? Because you do need Hydras against Blink Stalkers or Immortal Play.
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On March 19 2011 20:13 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I think you'd be surprised how many strategies are based on getting to the opponent. It's kinda the point of the game you know, and not exactly hard. When a P is 4 gating he won't have a considerably weaker army than a Zerg, so Z can't really attack full on in the middle of the map (he can bait FFs however). Exactly how is Protoss not supposed to get to the zergs base?
Spine Crawlers would've held even the push that MC did. July was completely oblivious to the fact that it actually was a 4-Gate instead of an expansion build, meaning he was outplayed, meaning MC earned the win. There's no strat that's uncounterable.
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there is no micro counter (having build counters only are lame .. depends on scouting luck), the result of a fight depends largely of the ability of one player, this sucks. There should be some counter micro possibilities, maybe FF should not be instant ..
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On March 19 2011 20:16 gdalam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:13 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I think you'd be surprised how many strategies are based on getting to the opponent. It's kinda the point of the game you know, and not exactly hard. When a P is 4 gating he won't have a considerably weaker army than a Zerg, so Z can't really attack full on in the middle of the map (he can bait FFs however). Exactly how is Protoss not supposed to get to the zergs base? Spine Crawlers would've held even the push that MC did. July was completely oblivious to the fact that it actually was a 4-Gate instead of an expansion build, meaning he was outplayed, meaning MC earned the win. There's no strat that's uncounterable.
yeah, I agree that MC should have won, he's the much better player by far. I just have a problem with the scenario that a P can FF a ramp and it's gg for the Zerg.
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I will not go on about CS and FG here since my main race is toss but as far as toss goes il tell you this:
July microed poorly and didn't try to "bite" those forcefield well enough, on the other hand... it was MC using them.
I agree force field need a nerf to make them less efficient since a player like MC can just ROFLSTOMP you with them, on the other hand nerfing ff would be shiting on 99,99% of the toss player, including me and all the ppl that read this thread, since we can't micro as well as MC, i don't think anyone can actually. Therefor if the force field ability is to be removed/re designed it would mean toss units need to be redesigned aswell, i.e a zealot should stand a chance vs Mara or marines w/o ff, stalkers should stand a chance vs roaches w/o ff and so on.
And that would be something around the line of changing the concept of the race itself up until late game, and even then ff are shit usefull mainly in PvZ.
I for one never liked ff and CS much aswell and i think the game would be more fun w/o them but they are not a huge problem atm.
There is only one MC and only one Marine king so for the moment ff and CS isn't "overpowerd" anywhere else then in GSL so it isn't something i would change the whole game over for...
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On March 19 2011 20:15 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:13 Buddhist wrote:On March 19 2011 20:08 mathemagician1986 wrote:On March 19 2011 20:06 Buddhist wrote:On March 19 2011 20:04 mathemagician1986 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:55 Dommk wrote:On March 19 2011 19:51 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change. But MC didn't have equal economy, he stopped making probes and completely faked july out. He was warping in units inside his base, he made the entire thing look like a regular 3 gate expand and July reacted as if it were a 3gate expand, when he realized it was over. This is like Protoss forge fast expanding then seing a hatchery going down at the Zergs natural, but the Zerg cancles it after the scouting probe dies then proceeds to 1base quick Nydus/Roach all-in. In that situation the Nydus all-in will come out much faster than he would ever expect it and if he waits until the Nydus worm going down in his base to react, then he losses the game. I was talking in more general terms, not specifically this game. The problem fo cutting off half of a zergs production with forcefields is simply a fundamental problem, it doesn't really matter how the players arrived at the situation. And the big difference is, that Protoss can actually deny Nydus play easily, but how is zerg supposed to deny a protoss forcefielding a ramp? Micro should be a competition where the best player wins, not simply casting 1 spell and it's gg. I have to agree though that MC's play was brilliant, it's why I feel he really deserves the title. Yet, if he couldn't have FF'd the ramp, he would have lost the game, even though his strategy was genius, and July totally fell for it. Meaning, if FF weren't that good, July would have won, which would be completely fucking retarded. FF is balanced QED. o_O. that makes like no sense on so many levels. amazing... Er, what? I'm saying MC should have won the game, and the only reason he did win was because of FF. Therefore, if FF were worse, he'd have lost, which would be bad. Therefore the strength of FF is a good thing. If you seriously think a zerg should be able to hold off a push from P, when he's completely unaware it's coming, and has been playing as if the P was expanding the whole time, then you're biased or stupid. I said, I'm not referring to that game in perticular. I showcased a scenario that happens very often in ZvP and has fundamental problems for the Z, which you responded to by stating "logic" that has no relevance to my post. Hence I said it makes no sense.
I guess it makes little sense when taken only as a response to your post. The point is that many people aren't acknowledging the fact that MC was supposed to win that game because he used the superior strategy. The only reason he did win was because of FF. That means that FF being weaker would be imbalanced.On March 19 2011 20:17 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
there is no micro counter (having build counters only are lame .. depends on scouting luck), the result of a fight depends largely of the ability of one player, this sucks. There should be some counter micro possibilities, maybe FF should not be instant ..
Positioning.
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I don't care much for the balance talk, but if SC2 wants to start having longer games and be a better e-sport then something needs to change. If all ZvP starts looking like this i don't want to watch it. Do whatever it takes so the games become longer/better.
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On March 19 2011 20:13 Jimmeh wrote:No amount of skill on July's side would have changed the game unless he was psychic, knew what was coming and thus built units earlier as a result. If July was the best player in the world it wouldn't of mattered.
There were tells to the fact that MC wasn't going the standard 3-Gate Sentry expand, like the fact that he didn't build anything by his Nexus (it's standard to wall off from the ramp to the Nexus with a Forge). By the time July realized what was happening it was too late, it was simply a brilliant build by MC that no one has seen before. Now that we have seen it, people will be able to keep an eye on it.
On March 19 2011 20:15 Gigaudas wrote:
But then when are you supposed to attack with Hydras? Because you do need Hydras against Blink Stalkers or Immortal Play.
When you're on creep, it's really that simple. Do a better job of spreading your creep, he can't stop it until he gets Robo tech. Now obviously there's times when you should/need to attack with Hydras off creep, but the last game wasn't an example of it.
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On March 19 2011 20:18 Aterons_toss wrote:
I will not go on about CS and FG here since my main race is toss but as far as toss goes il tell you this:
July microed poorly and didn't try to "bite" those forcefield well enough, on the other hand... it was MC using them.
I agree force field need a nerf to make them less efficient since a player like MC can just ROFLSTOMP you with them, on the other hand nerfing ff would be shiting on 99,99% of the toss player, including me and all the ppl that read this thread, since we can't micro as well as MC, i don't think anyone can actually. Therefor if the force field ability is to be removed/re designed it would mean toss units need to be redesigned aswell, i.e a zealot should stand a chance vs Mara or marines w/o ff, stalkers should stand a chance vs roaches w/o ff and so on.
And that would be something around the line of changing the concept of the race itself up until late game, and even then ff are shit usefull mainly in PvZ.
I for one never liked ff and CS much aswell and i think the game would be more fun w/o them but they are not a huge problem atm.
There is only one MC and only one Marine king so for the moment ff and CS isn't "overpowerd" anywhere else then in GSL so it isn't something i would change the whole game over for...
I don't think MC's FF usage is unique. HuK could replicate it, 0 doubt.
I also don't think what MC did was overpowered. I think what July did was flawed strategy.
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On March 19 2011 20:13 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:03 ThinkAboutIt wrote:On March 19 2011 19:14 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. He got outraced. You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time. The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter. His units weren't out at the exact perfect time since they got FF'd inside his base? Duh? Losing. Did he forget that MC had sentries or something? Seriously, think before you post. He reacted late and was FF'd in his base. It's as simple as that. You think MC put up his nexus and then canceled it for no reason? Of course not, July saw the expo and didn't make units until he saw MC coming. Not only did MC have more units than he thought but July didn't think he was going to move out that fast thus the units from his main weren't down the ramp before the battle ensued which is why he got beat. You're basically proving my point that forcefield is a broken ability. Not imbalanced, but broken. The only reason July lost was because his units couldn't get down the ramp. The only reason they couldn't get down the ramp is because of an ability that allows you to wall of your opponent's ramp as long as you want. No amount of skill on July's side would have changed the game unless he was psychic, knew what was coming and thus built units earlier as a result. If July was the best player in the world it wouldn't of mattered. Any ability which can change the architecture of a map is broken by design. It shouldn't have ever existed. In a game where chokes, ramps etc. are key to defending then having an ability to change the size of these is these is the stupidest thing ever.
If I have no detection, and suddenly 2 cloaked banshees come into my base, guess what, NO AMOUNT OF SKILL CAN WIN ME THE GAME, this is where scouting becomes important, because there are simply certain situations which need to be addressed preemptively,
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On March 19 2011 20:13 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:03 ThinkAboutIt wrote:On March 19 2011 19:14 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. He got outraced. You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time. The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter. His units weren't out at the exact perfect time since they got FF'd inside his base? Duh? Losing. Did he forget that MC had sentries or something? Seriously, think before you post. He reacted late and was FF'd in his base. It's as simple as that. You think MC put up his nexus and then canceled it for no reason? Of course not, July saw the expo and didn't make units until he saw MC coming. Not only did MC have more units than he thought but July didn't think he was going to move out that fast thus the units from his main weren't down the ramp before the battle ensued which is why he got beat. You're basically proving my point that forcefield is a broken ability. Not imbalanced, but broken. The only reason July lost was because his units couldn't get down the ramp. The only reason they couldn't get down the ramp is because of an ability that allows you to wall of your opponent's ramp as long as you want. No amount of skill on July's side would have changed the game unless he was psychic, knew what was coming and thus built units earlier as a result. If July was the best player in the world it wouldn't of mattered. Any ability which can change the architecture of a map is broken by design. It shouldn't have ever existed. In a game where chokes, ramps etc. are key to defending then having an ability to change the size of these is these is the stupidest thing ever.
No, the only reason July lost was because he bit the bait, hook line and sinker. Look at the effort MC put into his builds, his DT build didn't even rely on the DT's doing damage, he prepared for complete hard counters (like if there were spore crawlers waiting for him)
When it came time to needing units down the ramp, it was too late.
This is like when Zerg Roach all-in Protoss but protoss lose because he didn't have enough Cannons or didn't have enough sentries. What do you do when there is a huge roach army staring down your throat? You can't just magic up a cannon or more sentries if your warpgates are on cooldown, you just die, but you don't start calling Roaches imbalanced
Having your army being shut out from out from defending your natural has existed since the very start of the beta, it has never been a problem because you just cannot continuously do that against someone who is prepared for that kind of stuff.
Stop trying to focus so hard on force field, you are trying to see the forest from the trees.
On March 19 2011 20:22 HuHEN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 20:13 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 20:03 ThinkAboutIt wrote:On March 19 2011 19:14 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. He got outraced. You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time. The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter. His units weren't out at the exact perfect time since they got FF'd inside his base? Duh? Losing. Did he forget that MC had sentries or something? Seriously, think before you post. He reacted late and was FF'd in his base. It's as simple as that. You think MC put up his nexus and then canceled it for no reason? Of course not, July saw the expo and didn't make units until he saw MC coming. Not only did MC have more units than he thought but July didn't think he was going to move out that fast thus the units from his main weren't down the ramp before the battle ensued which is why he got beat. You're basically proving my point that forcefield is a broken ability. Not imbalanced, but broken. The only reason July lost was because his units couldn't get down the ramp. The only reason they couldn't get down the ramp is because of an ability that allows you to wall of your opponent's ramp as long as you want. No amount of skill on July's side would have changed the game unless he was psychic, knew what was coming and thus built units earlier as a result. If July was the best player in the world it wouldn't of mattered. Any ability which can change the architecture of a map is broken by design. It shouldn't have ever existed. In a game where chokes, ramps etc. are key to defending then having an ability to change the size of these is these is the stupidest thing ever. If I have no detection, and suddenly 2 cloaked banshees come into my base, guess what, NO AMOUNT OF SKILL CAN WIN ME THE GAME, this is where scouting becomes important, because there are simply certain situations which need to be addressed preemptively,
This is exactly it. This is like Protoss faking DT's. MC's bluff wasn't some ordinary bluff, it was something that had a lot of though and planning go into it, I wouldn't be surprised if 99% of Zerg players get caught by it, but you can be darn sure that anyone who actually wants to win against MC from now will be preparing for it
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On March 19 2011 20:20 Chro wrote:
I don't care much for the balance talk, but if SC2 wants to start having longer games and be a better e-sport then something needs to change. If all ZvP starts looking like this i don't want to watch it. Do whatever it takes so the games become longer/better.
Did you even watch any of the other ZvP's this season? There's pleny of macro games. Besides, there's a reason that the new GSL maps are so huge.
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I knew this would happen, anytime a prominent player loses in GSL we get a few topics on "Is this broken?" because people are upset about the loss and need to vent out.
Forcefields is imo a very exciting spell that is unique in what it does, MC is the best Protoss in the world and it is only fitting that he would master the use of them.
When Boxer was dropping Tanks on cliffs or just doing his drops in BW, nobody said it was overpowered, it was just a excellent micro player doing excellent micro. Same thing applies here. We are not talking about some random Protoss, we are talking about the most dominant SC2 player we have ever had.
It is a sad state when we cant even have matches anymore without kicking over the bee hive and everyone and their mother is up in arms over something.
I am not trying to take the "holier than thou" attitude here on how everyone is a whiner and etc. But it seems like complaining about Terran is "so last year bro" and its Protoss time.
MC was alot better than July, not just in that series but in SC2 as a whole, he deserves the win.
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It is very superficial to say that concusive shields or forcefields "nullify" micro.
It's actually quite the opposite. They force the players who is facing them to anticipate their usage and engage fights in a perfect position all the time.
Though as a general rule I'm opposed to passive spells which are not visual (like concusive shields) because they aren't impressive from a spectator point of view and from a gamer point of view : they don't require any micro to be used. But that's another debate, if concusive shields had to be manually casted and that the missile was impressive, I would totally support the ability.
And to comment the GSL results since everyone is doing that here, there have actually been 3 totally different Zerg players entering the GSL final, while Protoss only got into the final 2 time and it was 2 time the same guy.
So don't talk about protoss dominance, when it's actually MC owning alone, there is no other Protoss who would come close to 4-1 July.
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EPT
