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On March 19 2011 20:49 TeWy wrote:
It is very superficial to say that concusive shields or forcefields "nullify" micro.
It's actually quite the opposite. They force the players who is facing them to anticipate their usage and engage fights in a perfect position all the time.
If the 2 players are at an equal skill level it's pretty much useless to try anticipating an instant cast spell and definitely takes a lot more effort from the opponent than they guy holding down F and clicking a few times.
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edit nevermind.. not going to fall into the trap of arguing with people crying imbalance.
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On March 19 2011 20:10 Shooks wrote:
If he had scouted that as soon as it was canceled he would've just been able to pop down 1-2 spines with roaches.
He did put down two spine crawlers and he made roaches. Their armies were about even when the attack came. The only reason MC won was because he got 2 warpgate cycles of reinforcements while July's reinforcements were blocked.
I like forcefields. I think it is a cool idea and, in most situations, I think they are fine. However, in this one situation, there does seem to be a problem - that is, ramp blocking to prevent reinforcements combined with warpgate and proxy pylons. All those factors just combine to be so crazy overwhelming in this situation.
Massive queens might be the solution but, like other people have said, that might cause other problems, as forcefield is an ability for a reason.
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LOL...
...talking like FF-ing like MC is easy or something.
MC is a boss. His FFs are boss. and if he can pull them off the way he does, then THAT micro deserves to nullify the opponents micro. Clean and simple.
OH. and btw. the tradeoff with sentries is that 3 probes can take 1 out. i.e they're weak as balls. so stop whining please.
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On March 19 2011 20:34 Tyree wrote:
I knew this would happen, anytime a prominent player loses in GSL we get a few topics on "Is this broken?" because people are upset about the loss and need to vent out.
Forcefields is imo a very exciting spell that is unique in what it does, MC is the best Protoss in the world and it is only fitting that he would master the use of them.
When Boxer was dropping Tanks on cliffs or just doing his drops in BW, nobody said it was overpowered, it was just a excellent micro player doing excellent micro. Same thing applies here. We are not talking about some random Protoss, we are talking about the most dominant SC2 player we have ever had.
It is a sad state when we cant even have matches anymore without kicking over the bee hive and everyone and their mother is up in arms over something.
I am not trying to take the "holier than thou" attitude here on how everyone is a whiner and etc. But it seems like complaining about Terran is "so last year bro" and its Protoss time.
MC was alot better than July, not just in that series but in SC2 as a whole, he deserves the win.
Yeah but people are also right. I mean FF is cool ability and it's hard to use and very few can use them just as MC uses but the problem is that zerg cannot do anything about that. It does not depend on zerg at all that's why people think that this is broken.
That's why I think if keep fungal as a missile it would be better for overall gameplay - FG would be still strong but opponent can avoid it if he is fast with his unit control.
Someone mentioned that if queens could break FFs it would help zerg. I think queen could be made massive that way you can actually bring queen on creep to the battle and micro her to break FFs. And ramp blocks could be avoided also.
On March 19 2011 20:58 andrewwiggin wrote:
MC is a boss. His FFs are boss. and if he can pull them off the way he does, then THAT micro deserves to nullify the opponents micro. Clean and simple.
About what micro exactly you are talking vs. forcefields? FFs cast instant and you cannot avoid them - you can just run away but it again depends on protoss, if he is good he is not going to waste them.
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The problem is smart casting. Bring back bw casting and FF is fine. Fungal growth isn't as abusive because its energy cost is well adjusted.
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On March 19 2011 20:58 andrewwiggin wrote:
LOL...
...talking like FF-ing like MC is easy or something.
MC is a boss. His FFs are boss. and if he can pull them off the way he does, then THAT micro deserves to nullify the opponents micro. Clean and simple.
OH. and btw. the tradeoff with sentries is that 3 probes can take 1 out. i.e they're weak as balls. so stop whining please.
Seriously, that's some utterly idiotic logic, no offence. Even if one player displays immense skill (even though I disagree here, casting FFs takes little skill with smart-cast, imo), the other player should be able to show that he's equally skilled and tie the situation, or even be able to outmicro his opponent.
A mechanic that allows one race to nullify the micro of the other race is simply broken, simple as that.
Consider this scenario:
Race A has a mechanic that nullifies micro of race B. Player X plays race A and player Y plays race B, they both have terrific micro, equally good. They engage in a battle - player A takes advantage of the mechanic that nullifies player B's micro, thus the latter's micro becomes obsolete, while player A can still take advantage of his micro.
How is that even remotely fair?
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Concerning blocking the ramp with forcefields, I imagine with a lot of effort it could be possible to balance the game in such a way it won't be a problem. Say, they can become destructable, they could require more tech, or maybe sentries could be made so absurdly expensive you just wouldn't want to get them, regardless of their effect. Regardless, all of those force the game to change a lot, which just illustrates forcefields are an ability that is so potentially powerful you have to design the game around them.
Which brings me to my point: assuming forcefield is fine the way it is now, aren't ramps broken? I think you could make a point that in a game where forcefield exists, you shouldn't have maps with small ramps that are so easy to block.
Fungal growth is another ability that is potentially broken: delaying pushes for as long as you want to, instantly shutting down all harass, all with an instant-cast and long-range spell. I don't think many would argue it is overpowered though, because infestors are 'squishy' and expensive, so these problems don't come into place a lot. I still find it a pity they revoked the missile attack for FG, however, since it would fix some of these situations where infestors are incredibly useful, if only you had them. Instead, they could be less useful and as a result could be made stronger in other areas, or just more accessible.
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If I have no detection, and suddenly 2 cloaked banshees come into my base, guess what, NO AMOUNT OF SKILL CAN WIN ME THE GAME, this is where scouting becomes important, because there are simply certain situations which need to be addressed preemptively,
Let's say I play a zvp and I see him going 3gate expand with a lot of sentries/zealots. I scout that he moves out and are about to make a 3-5gate pressure with zealots/sentries. Even if I scout this, how am I going to avoid forcefield from my ramp? Put down a ultralisk carvern or what did you have in mind? So you are saying I MUST rely on my current army and not any reinforcement.
If protoss scout cloaked banshees you actually have options to annihilate them completely with either cannons or obs + stalkers. Zerg doesn't have the same luxary against force fields because they can be thrown upon units so you can't block ramp with drones/w/e.
I don't understand your reasoning. Force fields can't be compared to cloaked banshees.
Yes, there are possibilities force protoss to cast ff and you can engange from many sides, but you have to be realistic. I'm diamond player and not a 300apm programer.
I agree with changing Queen to massive being a good idea, spreading creep would be more crucial in zvp.
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Kind of a pity this thread degenerated into Zerg whining about FF, had so much potential.
In any case, I do think abilities that limit movement of a player's units in such a direct way shouldn't be as common and easily available as they are in SC2. Fungal isn't that much of a problem, because of the required time and resource investment - it comes at a point in the game where it's nigh impossible to "abuse". FF and CS, on the other hand, just make the game less fun to play for the player on the receiving end.
Now, I played a lot of games as P, and quite a few as Z, and yet I still rage when I see marauders kite my zealots forever without getting hit at all, or being unable to save stalkers with a bit of micro (and the stalker is a unit that really screams "please micro me so I don't die"). It just feels wrong, and is frustrating as hell. Makes the game less fun, even if it's balanced per se.
Conversely, getting FFed as Zerg in the early game is just sad. You're like "hey, I have awesome mobility, let me set up flanks and surrounds on his slow ball of units", and then he puts down 10 FFs, and you can't do a thing about it. Again, one of the most fun thing about RTS gameplay - controlling your units well - is removed by an in-game ability. This is just not fun.
A good "movement restricting" ability can be witnessed in BW's spider mines. Mines had the opportunity for great damage, but also the opportunity for great control against them. They didn't completely lock the player down, but they slowed their advance even when dealt with efficiently. As an added bonus, they could be used against the Terran player, if they got careless with their placement.
Sadly though, changing FF would probably necessitate a complete redesign of Protoss, so it won't happen, not in an expansion, not ever.
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Abilities like that stop a-clicking, keep them in the game just for that reason. I don't understand July. While MC might be terrifying, mass sentry force field play is what he's been doing all the time.
Focusing those sentries down, using flank attacks, why do people keep trying to a-move into mass sentry armies?
On March 19 2011 20:58 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
I like forcefields. I think it is a cool idea and, in most situations, I think they are fine. However, in this one situation, there does seem to be a problem - that is, ramp blocking to prevent reinforcements combined with warpgate and proxy pylons. All those factors just combine to be so crazy overwhelming in this situation.
Massive queens might be the solution but, like other people have said, that might cause other problems, as forcefield is an ability for a reason.
Probe sniping works, as July showed on Shakuras, so does killing the pylon.
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Alright, check this out. What if forcefields became slow fields, kind of like that bad ass original idea for the mothership to slow and stop bullets? So when units get forcefielded, they can still escape, but REALLY slow (going through water? That's how I'd imagine it. Can't shoot when going through?). That also helps with ffing ramps. Kind of like stationary concussives. I think this would be enough to help toss early game with protecting their own ramp, but still make things fairer for everyone.
EDIT: I'm fine with them as they are, but they can still be frustrating every now and then.
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On March 19 2011 21:22 eLiE wrote:
Alright, check this out. What if forcefields became slow fields, kind of like that bad ass original idea for the mothership to slow and stop bullets? So when units get forcefielded, they can still escape, but REALLY slow (going through water? That's how I'd imagine it. Can't shoot when going through?). That also helps with ffing ramps. Kind of like stationary concussives. I think this would be enough to help toss early game with protecting their own ramp, but still make things fairer for everyone.
Mass roaches/zerglings and all kind of rushes would be pretty much unstoppable for protoss.
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I think that one simply thing that can help balancing FF is making it a channeling spell... when you kill the sentry, or if the sentry moves, the FF disappear...
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On March 19 2011 18:51 theBOOCH wrote:
I think you should focus this thread a little more if you want a better discussion. How about focus on forcefields for now. I believe it was Louder who said during the beta that forcefields were the most broken thing in the game. I definitely think that in many situations he's right.
The better the user... Skill ceilings are essential to the success of a competitive game. If there were a very low skill ceiling, SC2 would get stale very quickly (some say it has- I disagree that the ceiling is too low, though). If a player cannot physically outplay an opponent, then all that's left is strategy, something that develops slowly, but is disseminated quickly. Basically everyone would be at just about the same level. It is not the fact that one player possesses higher skill than another, it is the ability to activate that skill that is a problem.
Of course skill ceiling is a good thing. But what I'm arguing here is that players can partially negate the ability of the opponent to use his skill (micro). The 'input skill' (skill required to use the ability) is not the same as the 'output skill' (negative effect on the opponent), it is a lot lower. Also with a high enough 'input skill' (like MC) you can almost completely negate the opponent's ability to micro.
Essentially, the higher the skill for player x (ff/concussive/fg user), the more lower the skill ceiling (ability to use his skill) for player y.
And yes my post was quite general and I could've made it bigger, but I thought that this was enough.
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Furthermore, please stop whining and start discussing more. I see I've been called a whiny zerg player, truth is, I actually play random (but protoss is my favorite race).
Trust me when I say that using FF properly IS HARD. And trust me when I say that protoss loses without it, but it still is a problem in my eyes, same for concussive and FG, because when used correctly it is very hard/nearly impossible for the opponent to do something about it.
However, it has such a big role in the game that doing anything about it would be very hard. The only way I can see it removed is with a complete redesign for protoss and some changes to the other races. Like said before it's absolutely vital for stopping certain rushes or all in builds.
I think this quote sums it up:
The problem lies deeper with FF. FF is so strong, as is warpgate-tech, that gateway units are in a head to head fight cost for cost worse than their terran and zerg counterparts. Zealots and Stalkers are balanced around FF and Warpgate, resulting in them being shitty. Furthermore Protoss thus needs these super-lol units like colossi and HTs.
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Again please stop whining or QQing, I don't want to see this thread closed.
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Instead of whining how about people learn how to refine their play and beat it? Once you get trapped in thinking you have no control over a situation then you will always lose. So to the people in this thread..cry all you want, I'll be here practicing and refining to beat whatever tactic or strategy employed against me.
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On March 19 2011 21:41 Wegandi wrote:
Instead of whining how about people learn how to refine their play and beat it? Once you get trapped in thinking you have no control over a situation then you will always lose. So to the people in this thread..cry all you want, I'll be here practicing and refining to beat whatever tactic or strategy employed against me.
im a zerg player and i dont feel a need to qq ill just watch and let things cool over.
but i will comment on this..
no matter how much you refine your play. no matter how fast you micro your units. no matter how hard you try. once you have your ramp blocked.
THERE IS NO EXIT STRATEGY
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It would be nice if there was a way out of concussive and forcefield.
I wouldn't be upset if FF had a slightly smaller radius (but still somehow blocked a ramp) and also if it had a shorter duration but only a tiny decrease. Less than 10% ideally
Cuntcussive shells should have a cooldown, be more expensive, take longer to research or come with less damage with the shot (a combination of these is fine)
I would love to see even more micro and specifically more per unit micro.
I also wouldn't have a major complaint with the queen being able to cast a spell on the forcefield to drop it, that feels a little evil and cheap as a tactic. Maybe spawn larvas goo dissolves it or something.
FWIW I play P, not T or Z
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EPT
