EPTOn March 19 2011 22:36 ChaseR wrote:
Dark Archon's vs Z where insane
Dark Archon's vs Z where insane
This is the best thing I've read all day.
Abilities that nullify micro - Good or bad? - Page 9
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
This is the best thing I've read all day. | ||
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mumming
Faroe Islands256 Posts
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Vardant
Czech Republic620 Posts
On March 19 2011 22:31 mumming wrote: we are talking zerg vs protoss and we are talking about microability + ht's have more range than ghost and feedback is instant. You're kidding right? HT vs Ghost has been talked to death in the past few weeks and you don't remember one thing from that? It was one series. Only one and there are already at least 3 threads about FFs being OP. If it was so easy and everyone could do, what MC did, wouldn't the finals be PvP?... | ||
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Torumfroll
290 Posts
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HuHEN
United Kingdom514 Posts
On March 19 2011 21:15 Krewli wrote: Let's say I play a zvp and I see him going 3gate expand with a lot of sentries/zealots. I scout that he moves out and are about to make a 3-5gate pressure with zealots/sentries. Even if I scout this, how am I going to avoid forcefield from my ramp? Put down a ultralisk carvern or what did you have in mind? So you are saying I MUST rely on my current army and not any reinforcement. If protoss scout cloaked banshees you actually have options to annihilate them completely with either cannons or obs + stalkers. Zerg doesn't have the same luxary against force fields because they can be thrown upon units so you can't block ramp with drones/w/e. I don't understand your reasoning. Force fields can't be compared to cloaked banshees. Yes, there are possibilities force protoss to cast ff and you can engange from many sides, but you have to be realistic. I'm diamond player and not a 300apm programer. I agree with changing Queen to massive being a good idea, spreading creep would be more crucial in zvp. The person was using the fact that you couldn't respond properly AFTER being FFed to prevent reinforcements from the main to argue that they were unfair, the fact is that in starcraft you sometimes need to take preventative measures to ensure something doesnt happen. Often you cant completely prevent the main ramp FF from being somewhat effective, but you can make it less effective by having lots of units guarding your expo, july was just completely not expecting a 4gate, so of course he lost. | ||
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iChau
United States1210 Posts
On March 19 2011 22:31 mumming wrote: I know i made zerg look silly.. but we are talking lategame here im both zerg and protoss yeah if you get a chunk of zerg food close on to the protoss you will prolly win, but with enough skill from the protoss' side, that shouldnt happen edit: we are talking zerg vs protoss and we are talking about microability + ht's have more range than ghost and feedback is instant. I'm sorry to say that EMP range is 10 and psionic storm AND feedback range is 9. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On March 19 2011 22:45 Torumfroll wrote: Lets just make all races the same with the exact same units, stats and abilities so people would shut the fuck up about game balance. It would be a boring game to watch but hey at least its balanced right Trolling? July deserved to lose in game one, but july vs mc is just an example of a game. The fact that july couldn't do anything in game 2 4 and 5 against mc's quality forcefields (the games where he did 6gate) is just bad. I would estimate july's micro on par or close to mc's, but july could not show his micro, because he was forcefielded all the time. The only way to dodge those forcefields is to not engage, which is hard because mc was the one attacking. | ||
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Dommk
Australia4865 Posts
On March 19 2011 22:52 H0i wrote: Trolling? July deserved to lose in game one, but july vs mc is just an example of a game. The fact that july couldn't do anything in game 2 4 and 5 against mc's quality forcefields (the games where he did 6gate) is just bad. I would estimate july's micro on par or close to mc's, but july could not show his micro, because he was forcefielded all the time. The only way to dodge those forcefields is to not engage, which is hard because mc was the one attacking. Don't think it is. When July hydra dropped MC he didn't even bother to use overlords to save and micro hydras over force fields. All MC had were like 7 Sentries and 3 stalkers, no way he could have killed those overlords. Moon did it in IEM, no excuse for July to not do it. | ||
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 19 2011 22:50 iChau wrote: I'm sorry to say that EMP range is 10 and psionic storm AND feedback range is 9. However, observers show where the ghosts are permanently, which allows the templar to get the first hit in, whereas the terran needs an active scan to do it. | ||
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Jochan
Poland1730 Posts
When everyone knows that something is impossible, there's someone who doesn't know, and do it. I did not play SC1, I am from the weave of people that flooded TL in SC2 beta, but I strongly believe that some of you are too rooted in the old ways of SC1. What I mean by that, it's just that SC1 and SC2, although they share same concept and lore are totally different games. SC2 is typical modern game, by that I mean, simple, trivial tasks like movement, automining, rally, attack are done automatically. Basically the mechanics of the game, which as many of pros stated is very very easy compared to SC1. All the new things are moved towards spells and more and more complex abilities that are possible because game engine and computing power of modern hardware makes it possible. That makes game more shinny and all that jazz. That also change the metagame tremendously, and maybe I am naive but I believe we barely scratched the surface of what is possible through different combinations of units, spells etc. I myself get very frustrated as a Zerg, when toss slices my army in half and rapes me, HOWEVER there is not a single game after which I analyzed my replay and I could say: "holly shit, this is imba and impossible for me to beat". There is always something that I could have done differently and not even by changing my build order and unit comp, just by little tweaks here and there, like positioning, place to fight, static defense etc. And if you think that what your opponent is going for is totally imba imba, then scout like hell and try to kill him before he does it... Well if you know your destiny is death by rape, then why not change the rules of the game and try something else before the doomsday ? You are dead anyway right? | ||
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
the only game where i felt like july got completely crushed by forcefield abuse was metalopolis, which is just a crazy abusive map for forcefields in general. the truth is july should've studied mc's style, and realized that while he has lots of timings, they often involve a lot of sentries, and he should've favored faster lairs with burrow or drop. he was doing it much slower than you would if you were going to be worried about such a thing. but at the same time, even though i think it's a completely valid tool for protoss and frankly can't even be taken out of the game at this point for how much early game timings rely on it, i think the reward for doing them as well as you could with as many sentries as mc managed to make, ends up creating a disproportionate value that you get out of units. then again, that's kind of how a lot of protoss units work, and there's ways to deal with each of those situations as well, and they're all equally frustrating and seemingly ridiculously imbalanced until a solid solution is discovered it's funny because i noticed mc really liked 11 sentries. that's somewhere around 20 forcefields depending on how long he waits and assuming a few are full energy. i can't imagine ever beating that without deliberately teching to an anti-forcefield option. i think that's a fair trade too, with over 1000 gas into a couple abilities essentially. the issue i have, mainly one out of ignorance for studying mc's timings, is how can you possibly scout a mass sentry build so deceptively hidden the way mc did? i know how to read a 6 gate, i can get burrow for that, but what happens when all i see is pylons at the natural, and a new nexus nearly complete with a normal amount of sentries for such a build? mc was very clever about it, i'm not sure how i'd deal with that without overcompensating or blindly teching at this point. | ||
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Vardant
Czech Republic620 Posts
On March 19 2011 22:52 H0i wrote: July deserved to lose in game one, but july vs mc is just an example of a game. The fact that july couldn't do anything in game 2 4 and 5 against mc's quality forcefields (the games where he did 6gate) is just bad. I would estimate july's micro on par or close to mc's, but july could not show his micro, because he was forcefielded all the time. The only way to dodge those forcefields is to not engage, which is hard because mc was the one attacking. Can you somehow support the fact, that July lost only because of the perfect usage of Force Fields? This whole thing looks more like people being upset, that MC crushed July so easily. And because MC can't possibly be better than him, then some sort of game breaking mechanic must be found. If he somehow managed to go Carriers every single game, then they would obviously be OP. On March 19 2011 23:00 Dalavita wrote: However, observers show where the ghosts are permanently, which allows the templar to get the first hit in, whereas the terran needs an active scan to do it. Or they could do the unthinkable and build a *gasp* Raven. | ||
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H0i
Netherlands484 Posts
On March 19 2011 23:01 Vardant wrote: Can you somehow support the fact, that July lost only because of the perfect usage of Force Fields? This whole thing looks more like people being upset, that MC crushed July so easily. And because MC can't possibly be better than him, then some sort of game breaking mechanic must be found. If he somehow managed to go Carriers every single game, then they would obviously be OP. Or they could do the unthinkable and build a *gasp* Raven. No I actually am an MC fan and feel like he would've taken the game, even without FF. The sad thing about his amazing use of FF is that july just didn't have a chance to micro and do something about it. Without the abuse of FF to nullify july's micro, I think the finals would have been much more exciting, with longer games, and a different score like 4-3 for mc. I think mc played better and deserved the win, but july didn't have the opportunity to show anything, because mc is able to forcefield so well that july was unable to micro. | ||
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n0ise
3452 Posts
- Starting Energy +25 - Forcefield mana cost increased to 75. (Guardian Shield and Hallucination cost tweaked) fixed ezpz In all seriousness, the spells listed in the OP are micro abilities which take 'some' skill to use, I think it's great to see such kind of stuff - just not to a point when it completely overwhelms the other player, without him being to able to have a proper response. | ||
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NicolBolas
United States1388 Posts
I myself get very frustrated as a Zerg, when toss slices my army in half and rapes me, HOWEVER there is not a single game after which I analyzed my replay and I could say: "holly shit, this is imba and impossible for me to beat". That's not what imbalanced means. Let's assume that skill is perfectly quantifiable. That is, you can assign a number to skill, and you can therefore have an objective basis to say that person A has greater, less, or equal skill to person B. A game is perfectly balanced if two players of equal skill play the game and they both win 50% of their games against each other. A game is perfectly balanced if a person of greater skill wins more games against a person of less skill. Given players of equal skill, if the side with FF wins more often than the side without FF, then the game is imbalanced. And considering how neutralizing FF can be against many abilities, it is very possible that dealing with FF-based strategies requires a lot more skill. Does that mean that there's nothing you can do? No. If you have more skill than your opponent, then perhaps you might go back to a 50:50 win ratio. But it's still imbalanced because you have to have more skill than your opponent does in order to achieve 50:50. I'm not saying that oGsMC and July are of equal skill. But there is an argument to be made that FF can neutralize a great deal of an enemy's skill very quickly and effectively. | ||
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Bergys
Sweden337 Posts
I do think they should make some changes to force fields, f.ex. making EMP remove them or something like that. If you want to nerf them to the ground/remove them completely then you'd had to buff the stalker/zealot so much that 4-gate would become ridicolusly overpowered and then something else would have to change. I do also agree that force-fielding a ramp becomes kind of stupid sometimes so maybe making the queen a massive unit would be a good change aswell. | ||
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flodeskum
Iceland1267 Posts
Honestly, only one of the games last night was actually decided by FF play (game 1) but even that was only because MC faked an expo and hid part of his army to make july overdrone. All the other games MC simply had way too much stuff... his macro was just better (which is seemingly the only way to get a respectable win according to some on here). It wasn't really exiting to watch but it wasn't some great injustice either. MC was the better player by some distance. Obviously the fact that protoss is perceived to be at an advantage in pvz currently is coloring the discussion somewhat. There was no complaint when FD beat rainbow in an equally one-sided final or when MC beat rain as in both cases the winners race was seen to be weaker in the matchup (and rain was clearly out of MCs league). I mean look at the games, not a single robo was made and all the games MC won was by pure gateway units and just having a lot more of them. When a protoss player has more gateway units than a zerg player has roaches/lings there is clearly a bit of a gap in skill. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Btw lol at the guy who said Dark Archons were insane. What game were you playing? | ||
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Vardant
Czech Republic620 Posts
On March 19 2011 23:08 H0i wrote: No I actually am an MC fan and feel like he would've taken the game, even without FF. The sad thing about his amazing use of FF is that july just didn't have a chance to micro and do something about it. Without the abuse of FF to nullify july's micro, I think the finals would have been much more exciting, with longer games, and a different score like 4-3 for mc. I think mc played better and deserved the win, but july didn't have the opportunity to show anything, because mc is able to forcefield so well that july was unable to micro. Oh, ok. Sure, I would have loved to see some great macro game too, but this was also amazing on its own merit. I had no problem enjoying the games fully. We haven't seen games like that in the GSL and people generally weren't aware, that aggressive toss can be this dangerous early in the game. Especially if he goes against the most aggressive player in the tournament or so we thought. I was even thinking, that if MC haven't lost the two Phoenixes in game 3, he might have actually be able to defend. Not win, but possibly defend that drop. Also judging from the interview, MC's preparation was just superb. Who comes up with a strategy and not only practices it, but also asks people to hard counter it blindly, so he does have a follow up? That must have seriously taken a while. | ||
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Sadist
United States7218 Posts
On March 19 2011 20:03 Buddhist wrote: I'm just going to restate once, because people need to acknowledge it, before I leave the thread: July snarfed it up, at least in the final game. He attacked with roaches and even hydras off creep vs. blink stalker sentry after he already knew MC was using really heavy FF play in the previous games What is the result of that, I wonder? 0 losses for P maybe? I'd hope so, because Z just made a HUGE GAME LOSING MISTAKE. July fucked up. He's great, but he fucked up badly. FF is required for a gateway army to be cost effective vs. anything T or Z can make, at any point in the game. The problem with FF is that players forget they need to know how to use positioning to not lose. When you make mistakes, you SHOULD be able to be punished. Z has speedlings, T has concussive shells and stim, P has forcefields. That's how the game works. He was dead if he didnt attack anyway. It was 3 base vs 3 base when the hydra rape happened in the middle. So =( He had to try to do something | ||
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