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I feel we'll see ways around FF abusing in the future. I do think allowing Queens to stomp FF's would help the Zerg somewhat have a defenders advantage. Or at least not have a bunch of units herp derping at the top of the ramp wishing they could fight. It also seems Zerg has to make more of an educated guess with scouting more so than T or P which can result in a lot of metagaming shenanigans. Though that's just more of a feeling I have.
The Zerg in me was raging about FF's while watching the game however after sitting back and objectively thinking about the situations July was in and the possible tilt he may have been on after game 1 I have a more calm approach to it. What if the Aquanda style of zvp is the answer, mass ling/bling with upgrades and aggressive expanding while baiting FF's with ling balls and countering attacking? What if July had different positioning and not chase MC into a choke point and get FF'd or ball up and get a donut of FF's by spreading his units out more. A bunch of "what-ifs" don't make for actual scenarios but they aren't impossible.
I just dislike how something needs to be nerfed after every GSL final.
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I never liked force field, I'll say that right away. It never seemed Starcraft-like. However I don't think it should be nerfed. Just remember SC2 is an incomplete game, in terms of units, abilities, and maps.
Everything gravitates towards perfect balance. In the mean time, my suggestion would be for anyone upset by this to switch to Protoss and enjoy the ride.
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i just dont like how ppl are talking like its obvious that ur gonna block him all the time...even mc in game 1 almost screwed up, barely kept the block going with 1 sentry @ max range while his army was pressured.
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July failed at scouting because he was only ready to defend against a Zealot/Sentry push, but after MC cancelled the Nexus he was able to add Stalkers, which completly own 2 Spine Crawler.
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they can make force fields have shorter casting range, and sentry have range 4 (same as roach) instead of 5. That way trapped roaches are isolated but can still attack the sentries. Also this would not break the early game, force fields are really essential to protoss to hold off 1 base rushes.
whatever the changes are, they should not be drastic. SC2 is a pretty well-balanced game thus far and you don't want to eff it up because of a few whiners.
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Why would this have mattered at all? July knew that it was a fake before the nexus was cancelled as evidenced by the fact he stopped producing drones and started producing pure ling/roaches instead.
Actually, his ling at the bottom Tower scouted his huge army, and that's probably when he realized MC (or became 100% sure rather) was going to push.
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I think the real solution to the problem is giving forcefield a cooldown. That way they retain their offensive usefulness, but at the same time their placement actually matters and you can no longer just cast FFs semi randomly and win.
Although, I'd also beg to look at this the other way around. MC and ONLY MC has been able to successfully abuse sentries in this way. Huk's build is not nearly as powerful or well executed, as seen in code A. No one else has been able to pull this kind of push off this effectively, which also speaks volumes of how powerful a player MC is. Otherwise everyone would do this, which doesn't happen.
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I have an idea, let's as a community try to figure out how to beat good forcefield use rather than trying to change the spell design so it's not "OP." Forcefield has been used and abused since the beta, and if you watch the GSL finals critically (and without bias), there were several decisions July made that lost him the series. + Show Spoiler + engaging hydras off creep, few to no spine crawlers for defense, engaging at his natural rather than in the middle of the map
This thread is filled with viable suggestions of what July could have done. After game 1 when he had about 10 roaches waiting in his main for the forcefields to go away- he should learn from it and prepare in the future. MC forcefielded him up his ramp constantly, and July was not reacting and avoiding that potential circumstance. MC is well known for his 2base timing pushes, a few extra preemptive spine crawlers is not out of the question or necessarily a bad idea to protect you to the midgame- it's just one idea July didn't invest in.
JulyZerg is the God of War- he's most known for his aggressive style, yet decided to sit back macroing, and we're shocked he got stomped by MC? Or blaming anything and everything but July (or crediting MC?) When MarineKing got rolled by MVP for playing away from his style, nobody questioned the series, it was understood that in those matches he was simply outclassed and outplayed. The same is true here, July straight up got beaten, this fact is just being veiled by the screams of imba from bronze leaguers.
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It doesn't matter what July could've done better. A spell that nullifies micro is bad from both spectator and player point of view.
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I read only about 6-7 pages.. It's just amazing, the 'logic' used in this thread.
There's no getting around that Protoss ABSOLUTELY needs FF's, unless if Zealot/Stalker is buffed to be on-par with MM and roach/ling. And an FF nerf.. for HP? Really? I'm pretty sure those who are saying "give it HP", you haven't played a game of Protoss. It only takes 1 FF to be gone and it's GG for you. I've lost some games before from purely having only a little crevice inbetween an FF or two; it's sad that someone would even mention this. Furthermore, it IS a talent/skill to have to make good FF's. What MC can do is not what every other toss can do - same goes for MKP's marine splitting.. No other Terran can do it how he does it. And i've also been noticing a trend.. Whoever tends to win the GSL, or whatever race that makes it to the final stages, is immediately imbalanced >.>; i've seen this uproar occur each time after a GSL is taken. Oh, the humor, if football fans were like this
"Steelers lost? Oh, wow, packers are so imbalanced"
And a question to Zerg players, as i'm curious. Why can't Z players over maynard their workers to their natural, drone off of both hatches but only slightly on the natural, and save up larva if they expect any pushes? I've been wondering this for awhile - if FFing your ramp is this big of a problem, work around it? Please answer me, as i'm pretty curious.
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On March 19 2011 18:51 theBOOCH wrote:
I think you should focus this thread a little more if you want a better discussion. How about focus on forcefields for now. I believe it was Louder who said during the beta that forcefields were the most broken thing in the game. I definitely think that in many situations he's right......
Excellent post, +1.
I like, the idea of increasing ht ecost of forcefield simply because this prevents a protoss from looking at an army on the otherside of his ramp and then warping in 2 sentries to defend isnstantly. I feel like an ability that strong should be more pro-active.
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This is the thing about forcefields. It makes or breaks your army. If you have bad/none forcefields you lose early and mid game. Gateway units are so weak once people start getting upgrades thats why forcefields are necessary. They are a little strong at times that we can see but nerfing FF's could make gateway units weaker n it becomes a big yellow snowball
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The number of people advocating the removal of force fields is _so wierd_.
Makes it obvious that a lot of you guys are posting without really thinking.
The force field is one of two things that makes protoss able to win any engagement beyond the first 8 minutes of the game (second being collossi) assuming it's against an opponent with equal macro.
The fact is that Protoss ground forces are expensive, all 2 supply, and extremely weak for their high cost. A few marines and marauders can kill twice their cost in Protoss units very easily. A single medivac full can annihilate so many freaking units! This pretty much means warping in units for drop defense doesn't work. Protoss ground armies are just pathetic for their cost. They get raped by pretty much every unit composition from both races. Force field allows you to split your enemy's army and thus make the fight EVEN, as well as opening a plethora of strategies.
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Forcefields felt terribly wrong from the moment I first learned about the spell. Sure, on the surface they can make some dramatic moments, but the dynamic itself is just flawed imo.
In BW you had to work little wonders like using a fucking arbiter to freeze a unit that's crossing the ramp.
In SC2 you use a tier 1 unit and a single click. Wrong.
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Everyone watches the GSL and notes the amazing FFs and how they owned up July, but what people dont notice is that its REALLY REALLY hard to do that. And forcefields are unforgiving in that if you mess them up, you are more than dead. There is a tiny margin for err.
Pros are Pros, and things that might be slightly OP for pros are not a balance issue for many of us, because we just suck at placing FFs.
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On March 20 2011 00:41 niteReloaded wrote:
Forcefields felt terribly wrong from the moment I first learned about the spell. Sure, on the surface they can make some dramatic moments, but the dynamic itself is just flawed imo.
In BW you had to work little wonders like using a fucking arbiter to freeze a unit that's crossing the ramp.
In SC2 you use a tier 1 unit and a single click. Wrong.
Except that once you get to 2 base and leave your main base, one forcefield is useless. You need several sentries (usually minimum 3-4). That's at least a 400 gas investment just to defend yourself against something as simple as mass lings, which in spite of your huge gas investment, one misclick still loses you the game.
The flawed understanding in this thread hurts my brain. People here should go play 100 games as Protoss and get a real understanding of the sentry/FF dynamic before posting potential balance changes.
On March 20 2011 00:44 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:38 42x10 wrote:
The number of people advocating the removal of force fields is _so wierd_.
Makes it obvious that a lot of you guys are posting without really thinking.
The force field is one of two things that makes protoss able to win any engagement beyond the first 8 minutes of the game (second being collossi) assuming it's against an opponent with equal macro.
The fact is that Protoss ground forces are expensive, all 2 supply, and extremely weak for their high cost. A few marines and marauders can kill twice their cost in Protoss units very easily. A single medivac full can annihilate so many freaking units! This pretty much means warping in units for drop defense doesn't work. Protoss ground armies are just pathetic for their cost. They get raped by pretty much every unit composition from both races. Force field allows you to split your enemy's army and thus make the fight EVEN, as well as opening a plethora of strategies.
You make it sound so complicated. If blizzard wanted to remove forcefields, all they'd need to do is buff the units a bit, end of story. The reasoning behind making Protoss units weak in the first place was probably counting on forcefields to make up for it.
4gate is already whined about incessantly, let's buff gateway units and make 4gate even more standard? No thanks.
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On March 20 2011 00:38 42x10 wrote:
The number of people advocating the removal of force fields is _so wierd_.
Makes it obvious that a lot of you guys are posting without really thinking.
The force field is one of two things that makes protoss able to win any engagement beyond the first 8 minutes of the game (second being collossi) assuming it's against an opponent with equal macro.
The fact is that Protoss ground forces are expensive, all 2 supply, and extremely weak for their high cost. A few marines and marauders can kill twice their cost in Protoss units very easily. A single medivac full can annihilate so many freaking units! This pretty much means warping in units for drop defense doesn't work. Protoss ground armies are just pathetic for their cost. They get raped by pretty much every unit composition from both races. Force field allows you to split your enemy's army and thus make the fight EVEN, as well as opening a plethora of strategies.
You make it sound so complicated. If blizzard wanted to remove forcefields, all they'd need to do is buff the units a bit, end of story.
The reasoning behind making Protoss units weak in the first place was probably counting on forcefields to make up for it.
On March 20 2011 00:42 Sanguinarius wrote:
Everyone watches the GSL and notes the amazing FFs and how they owned up July, but what people dont notice is that its REALLY REALLY hard to do that.
it's not hard if somebody's already mastered it, and the game has been out for less than a year.
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On March 20 2011 00:25 DuckS wrote:
I read only about 6-7 pages.. It's just amazing, the 'logic' used in this thread.
There's no getting around that Protoss ABSOLUTELY needs FF's, unless if Zealot/Stalker is buffed to be on-par with MM and roach/ling. And an FF nerf.. for HP? Really? I'm pretty sure those who are saying "give it HP", you haven't played a game of Protoss. It only takes 1 FF to be gone and it's GG for you. I've lost some games before from purely having only a little crevice inbetween an FF or two; it's sad that someone would even mention this. Furthermore, it IS a talent/skill to have to make good FF's. What MC can do is not what every other toss can do - same goes for MKP's marine splitting.. No other Terran can do it how he does it. And i've also been noticing a trend.. Whoever tends to win the GSL, or whatever race that makes it to the final stages, is immediately imbalanced >.>; i've seen this uproar occur each time after a GSL is taken. Oh, the humor, if football fans were like this
"Steelers lost? Oh, wow, packers are so imbalanced"
And a question to Zerg players, as i'm curious. Why can't Z players over maynard their workers to their natural, drone off of both hatches but only slightly on the natural, and save up larva if they expect any pushes? I've been wondering this for awhile - if FFing your ramp is this big of a problem, work around it? Please answer me, as i'm pretty curious.
Hi. I am a random player. I understand your frustration that Protoss needs forcefield for defence. But please understand it from their standpoint as well.
Zerg is really a disadvantaged race. Scouting from Zerg is really REALLY hard. Overlords move far too slow and maps are getting bigger. Zerglings are prevented by both forcefields and wall-ins whilst Zerg bases are open for all to see. The only advantage Zerg has is economy and even that, chronoboost and mules with safe FE like forge FE and 2 rax expand has eroded that.
I agree that FF is indeed too hard on Zerg as playing blind with your opponent going for either 4 gate, 6 gate sentry, stargate play or dt play is extremely tiring. IF and only IF zergs can know what the opponent is up to, then can you argue that July played badly. The fact is, July didn't. MC was just too good at abusing the Zerg race's scouting disadvantage. Not to discredit MC as he is a solid player, but it remains that July didn't play shabby. He was just running out of options and playing blind against a great protoss.
Forcefields are a must for protoss. But i feel tweaking is needed. Enabling forcefield to only be able to be placed on empty hexes would be best. It rewards forward planning by the protoss and does not disadvantage a protoss's defence.
Peace =)
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On March 20 2011 00:43 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:41 niteReloaded wrote:
Forcefields felt terribly wrong from the moment I first learned about the spell. Sure, on the surface they can make some dramatic moments, but the dynamic itself is just flawed imo.
In BW you had to work little wonders like using a fucking arbiter to freeze a unit that's crossing the ramp.
In SC2 you use a tier 1 unit and a single click. Wrong. Except that once you get to 2 base and leave your main base, one forcefield is useless. You need several sentries (usually minimum 3-4). That's at least a 400 gas investment just to defend yourself against something as simple as mass lings, which in spite of your huge gas investment, one misclick still loses you the game. The flawed understanding in this thread hurts my brain. People here should go play 100 games as Protoss and get a real understanding of the sentry/FF dynamic before posting potential balance changes. Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 00:44 niteReloaded wrote:On March 20 2011 00:38 42x10 wrote:
The number of people advocating the removal of force fields is _so wierd_.
Makes it obvious that a lot of you guys are posting without really thinking.
The force field is one of two things that makes protoss able to win any engagement beyond the first 8 minutes of the game (second being collossi) assuming it's against an opponent with equal macro.
The fact is that Protoss ground forces are expensive, all 2 supply, and extremely weak for their high cost. A few marines and marauders can kill twice their cost in Protoss units very easily. A single medivac full can annihilate so many freaking units! This pretty much means warping in units for drop defense doesn't work. Protoss ground armies are just pathetic for their cost. They get raped by pretty much every unit composition from both races. Force field allows you to split your enemy's army and thus make the fight EVEN, as well as opening a plethora of strategies.
You make it sound so complicated. If blizzard wanted to remove forcefields, all they'd need to do is buff the units a bit, end of story. The reasoning behind making Protoss units weak in the first place was probably counting on forcefields to make up for it. 4gate is already whined about incessantly, let's buff gateway units and make 4gate even more standard? No thanks.
1st part: just because something's imba at one point in the game, and then reverse imba at another doesn't make it balanced.
2nd part:
I'm not offering ultimate solutions. SC2 was built on wrong foundations from the beginning. I don't know about you, but I've been in anticipation for Heart of the Swarm in hope it brings changes as radical as BW did to SC vanilla for at least a few months now. So many things are inherently wrong.
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FF is a great spell, and very Starcraft-y. The ability to create chokes, trap units, and manipulate the battlefield is very exciting, strong, and dynamic. It by no means "nullifies micro," any more than Dark Swarm from BW nullified micro. Like Dark Swarm, it cannot be "countered" in such a way as to completely nullify the advantage of its use* (which is what many people seem to think should be happening); but it can be responded to in many ways which make it less effective and less devastating than it would be.* This is a good thing, not a bad thing; and saying it makes the game not fun is stupid, and wrong-headed.
DS is also similar to FF in that it's a spell which is almost necessary for their given race to be able to survive in certain stages of the game. And like DS it serves to isolate and almost completely "nullify" certain groups of units, and helps when attacking fixed fortifications.
Yes, it makes you work harder and can devestate you playing against it; but it's a good spectator spell, it's exciting, and it should stay in the game. So there.
Removing FF or weakening it significantly would be like removing or weakening DS; it would take away excitement factor, remove skill, and make the game blander. Give the other races tools to deal with FF, if they really can't deal with it; but don't remove it or weaken it, because the design of the spell is actually very good, and very Starcraft-y.
And anyway, FF is still nowhere near as powerful as DS; now THAT was a spell so imba that if it was in SC2 in its BW form, we'd have at least a dozen threads whining about it...
*Admittedly, if the Protoss does a bad job placing his forcefields, it can be pretty much 100% useless...but we're assuming that that's not going to happen at high levels.
*No doubt people will respond by saying that DS is a Hive-tech level spell while Sentry is T1.5. However, the fact that Sentries are very, very vulnerable, don't have infinite energy with Consume, are very gas heavy in the early game where you don't have much gas, and take many more clicks and skillful placement to be useful mitigates this.
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