EPTAbilities that nullify micro - Good or bad? - Page 12
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maybenexttime
Poland5656 Posts
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StateOfZerg
31 Posts
On March 20 2011 00:52 Captain Peabody wrote: FF is a great spell, and very Starcraft-y. The ability to create chokes, trap units, and manipulate the battlefield is very exciting, strong, and dynamic. It by no means "nullifies micro," any more than Dark Swarm from BW nullified micro. Like Dark Swarm, it cannot be "countered" in such a way as to completely nullify the advantage of its use* (which is what many people seem to think should be happening); but it can be responded to in many ways which make it less effective and less devastating than it would be.* This is a good thing, not a bad thing; and saying it makes the game not fun is stupid, and wrong-headed. DS is also similar to FF in that it's a spell which is almost necessary for their given race to be able to survive in certain stages of the game. And like DS it serves to isolate and almost completely "nullify" certain groups of units, and helps when attacking fixed fortifications. Yes, it makes you work harder and can devestate you playing against it; but it's a good spectator spell, it's exciting, and it should stay in the game. So there. Removing FF or weakening it significantly would be like removing or weakening DS; it would take away excitement factor, remove skill, and make the game blander. Give the other races tools to deal with FF, if they really can't deal with it; but don't remove it or weaken it, because the design of the spell is actually very good, and very Starcraft-y. And anyway, FF is still nowhere near as powerful as DS; now THAT was a spell so imba that if it was in SC2 in its BW form, we'd have at least a dozen threads whining about it... *Admittedly, if the Protoss does a bad job placing his forcefields, it can be pretty much 100% useless...but we're assuming that that's not going to happen at high levels. *No doubt people will respond by saying that DS is a Hive-tech level spell while Sentry is T1.5. However, the fact that Sentries are very, very vulnerable, don't have infinite energy with Consume, are very gas heavy in the early game where you don't have much gas, and take many more clicks and skillful placement to be useful mitigates this. FF has no place in SC2 imo. I agree that its defensive use great but it is way too versatile. Preventing reinforcements by blocking ramps, splitting armies, defending scouting, being the one to decide the engage and terrain. It is all too strong in the hands of a player like MC's calibre. Maybe the game is balanced at our lower levels. BUT in the top tier, it has no place. Dark swarm has been taken out, irradiate taken out. All abilities in SC2 has been watered down , thus it is not fair to compare forcefield to dark swarm. It can be tweaked to reduce its versatility instead of outright removal. Favour more planning and defensive usage by disallowing placement over units and buildings. Thus u cannot split armies but still can choose whether u want to trap the enemy in or deflect enemy melee. Also, ramp blocking can be detered with more micro from the zerg by zergling blocking. It causes for a better game in general. Peace =) . btw im a random player not some zerg QQ whiner TL-ers like to point fingers of accusations at | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
Edit: I'm not saying that anything should be changed, just that people need to realize that how "hard" something is, is a relative measure and that when compared to their yield, FF's are very simple to pull off. | ||
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StateOfZerg
31 Posts
On March 20 2011 00:42 Sanguinarius wrote: Everyone watches the GSL and notes the amazing FFs and how they owned up July, but what people dont notice is that its REALLY REALLY hard to do that. And forcefields are unforgiving in that if you mess them up, you are more than dead. There is a tiny margin for err. Pros are Pros, and things that might be slightly OP for pros are not a balance issue for many of us, because we just suck at placing FFs. IMO, this approach is wrong. We should look at the maximum potential as much as possible. Balance should be for the pros. WE all watch and want to emulate the pros and the general skill level of SC2 players will always increase. We dont want to seek to balance the games at all levels even bronze. its just not possible. I can outright tell u as a random player, Zerg has the hardest mechanics and strategies due to blind playing and less versatility. In this case, it takes a zerg player more skill in mechanics to win a lower skilled player. Is this balance? Well please reconsider your ideas in that Peace | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
On March 19 2011 19:17 Skyze wrote: to anyone who says FF is imbalance.. I have a simple challenge for you. Try to play Protoss at Masters WITHOUT using one forcefield.. I dare you. See how badly forcefield is required. And even if you do use it, 99.9999% chance you will get no where near as good as forcefields as MC.. He is the best in the world, point blank. Watch every other "pro" Protoss player, they dont win every game simply by going mass sentries.. If it was that easy, every protoss would be winning every single game like nothing. Forcefield "placing" is a large talent, trust me.. I have over 2000 protoss games so far, and I still land shitty forcefields once in awhile. It really is an art, and put it this way; you miss one forcefield vs terran, its gg. This doesn't mean anything. I could easily just say I dare you to play Zerg and try to get around what MC did. Because the truth is, the only direction is that everyone will get better and get closer to MC's level of FF use. And then when that happens, what is Zerg suppose to do? You can't get better at getting out of FF because it's completely dependent on the Protoss placing them well or horribly. I agree that Protoss would be absolutely horrible without FF, but they're arguably too strong in the early-mid game stages too. They're already trying to make fungal a projectile, why not experimenting with making FF a projectile? Or even maybe adding a CD to FF so you can't just spam the crap out of it. | ||
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soupchicken
United States322 Posts
On March 19 2011 23:55 epoc wrote: Imo nerfing force fields isn't a good idea. They should instead give zerg some kinda counter. For example a spell that removes force fields. I know this is very bad example but something that zerg can do to counter without completely removing ff. A guy in the other thread had the idea of making queens massive so they can stomp through Forcefields. This would also make them un-liftable by pheonix however which would have to be considered. I for one believe this is the perfect solution for our forcefield issues. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
Someone suggested making queens massive units and it sounds like a good idea. Concussive shells imo should be taken out of the game and tanks should be 2 supply to encourage more mech based play instead. | ||
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Apollonius
70 Posts
can you retreat or reinforce through a FF? no. The effect this has may not just be "imba" but I think it just removes gameplay excitement. Imagine the future, where all toss in the GSL are least as good as MC is now. (shudder...) perfect FF's would destroy zergs. A sentry push definitely would come before any burrow+burrow movement shenanigans. I know I would be far more excited by perfect storms or swarms rather than perfect FF's, because with storms and swarms, there are ways to brilliantly micro your units around them and THIS is a reason for excitement, but for FF's, if they cover an entire choke, there is very little that one can do excepting burrow micro or getting massive units to walk over them. I think that 1 of 3 options are necessary to help the ZvP MU against FF's: -make them have health (which, however, would spoil the nature of impassable terrain creation) -make them require more energy, and increase sentry starting energy to that amount (to help block rushes, but to reduce their power late game -make them unplaceable on creep (this would encourage toss to try to prevent creep spread more actively, and would force toss to chose where to engage more) what do you think about these ideas? Just a note, I don't believe they are IMBA, or anything... I just feel that they make matches so boring when you see a FF blocking a ramp from reinforcements -> GG | ||
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Khalleb
Canada1909 Posts
On March 20 2011 01:57 soupchicken wrote: A guy in the other thread had the idea of making queens massive so they can stomp through Forcefields. This would also make them un-liftable by pheonix however which would have to be considered. I for one believe this is the perfect solution for our forcefield issues. and make the VR hitting even harder | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On March 20 2011 01:47 Kimaker wrote: ...to everyone saying FF's are "hard" to pull off effectively, go try and blanket storms in BW, then come back to me. You have NO clue what you're talking about. I'm not taking anything away from MC, because god knows I can't FF like that, but it really is almost too easy to rip apart a Zerg with FF which requires relatively little actual micro ability. I mean, sweet Jesus, his army was almost pure sentry at some points. Edit: I'm not saying that anything should be changed, just that people need to realize that how "hard" something is, is a relative measure and that when compared to their yield, FF's are very simple to pull off. Yeah, anyone who's played BW knows how ridiculously easy force fields and storms are to pull off in sc2. I wouldn't change anything either, but it's intruguing to think if the game would actually be better with a poorer user interface... | ||
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BeMannerDuPenner
Germany5638 Posts
new fungal will be just another thing in that direction. i just hope that over the next 2 years blizz tries to bring more of the "powerbalance" (the shifting of power within one game that happened so much in bw) and "micro" balance into sc2. since both are very important for more exciting and less onesided games. On March 20 2011 02:04 ParasitJonte wrote: but it's intruguing to think if the game would actually be better with a poorer user interface... well im sure tons of bw players would love to see the game get harder with a worse interface. i fully understand that we need a easy to use interface in 2010. but no one can deny that it took ALOT of excitement out of the game in many situations. i could go nuts about a Z flanking with a huge army in bw cause i know its sick hard to execute that well. i would scream in amazement when i saw good carpet storms winning a game. now i just go " meh he aclicked 2 times" or " spamming storm... something evry silver guy can do...". its way easier to find exciting stuff when you know evrything they do is hard. and its hard to get excited when you watch a top pro level game and think "well that looks like one of my laddergames". dunno if it would be a better game and i doubt it. but it sure as hell would be more exciting to watch in lots of situations. | ||
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Treva
United States533 Posts
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Exstasy
United Kingdom393 Posts
there is nothign wrong with them as far as I can see. There is a way to deal with it it's not broken, July just got a third spire tech hydra AND Burrow, no way he can afford enough roaches to hold a 2 base all in, let alone he didn't make any spines. Soon everyone will figure this out the same way everyone figured out kyrixs low tier Aggression and Nestea Stopped MKP's Reign with marines back in Season 2. | ||
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Rifty
Canada76 Posts
And for the people that say "FF is easy you just point and click"... you can boil ANY action in this game to that... | ||
Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:22 H0i wrote: For example MC vs July. Because of the huge number of forcefields, and MC's skill to place them, there was nothing july could do. I'm getting tired of hearing this, the reason why July kept being unable to hold off the attacks is because he didn't go for burrowed roach, instead kept making hydra dens or hydralisks or spires. You can easily hold those attacks with just burrowed roach, even easier if you went burrowed move instead of roach speed as the first roach warren upgrade, but you dont even need that all you need is burrow and roaches. It's like imagine if terrans were whining about similar force field attacks when terran made vikings, it's just the wrong unit choice (although its an extreme example, the same idea applies) | ||
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krok(obs)
Germany264 Posts
kinda sounds like a good idea to me | ||
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CursedFeanor
Canada539 Posts
- There is nothing that can be done to mitigate their effect until late game (massive units, high-level upgrades, decent amount of flying units, etc.). - They allow a good protoss to utterly destroy any opponent with little effort. - They allow "unfair" tactics way too easily : blocking ramps instantly. (imagine if a terran could instantly bunker-block a ramp...). - Comparable abilities are not available to either zerg or terran. I'm glad that MC showcased this fact in such a brilliant fashion, which will hopefully make Blizzard react. Will anyone argue that MC is unbeatable (at least vs zerg) as it is at the moment? QED | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
On March 20 2011 02:21 Exstasy wrote: I don't understand?, Forcefields are strong for sure, but so are alot of abilities. there is nothign wrong with them as far as I can see. There is a way to deal with it it's not broken, July just got a third spire tech hydra AND Burrow, no way he can afford enough roaches to hold a 2 base all in, let alone he didn't make any spines. Soon everyone will figure this out the same way everyone figured out kyrixs low tier Aggression and Nestea Stopped MKP's Reign with marines back in Season 2. How can u "figure" it out? The whole point of FF is that u cant do anything about it. Only hydras with range upgrade can counter them but the rush comes at a timing before u can get them out. The problem is that zerg t1 units are melee or short range so when FF's are cast the majority of the army cant attack and the stalkers outrange the roaches (and the roaches cant move into range). Terran units on the other hand are ranged so they can still fight back even if blocked. Also game 1 was just impossible, what can u do when u cant even reinforce ur army. The roaches dont even have the range to attack from the cliff. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
Zerg can't take away their energy, but using burrowed roaches or banelings would punish that. Just gotta go to lair for the research a bit quicker in that case. Forcefields are good, but they should be. It's an early game gas heavy unit with little fighting potential that slows down teching. A ghost is the same way, early game gas heavy, with a ridiculously good ability vs protoss. Just allows for more micro on everyone's part. | ||
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krok(obs)
Germany264 Posts
On March 20 2011 02:27 Zelniq wrote: I'm getting tired of hearing this, the reason why July kept being unable to hold off the attacks is because he didn't go for burrowed roach, instead kept making hydra dens or hydralisks or spires. You can easily hold those attacks with just burrowed roach, even easier if you went burrowed move instead of roach speed as the first roach warren upgrade, but you dont even need that all you need is burrow and roaches. It's like imagine if terrans were whining about similar force field attacks when terran made vikings, it's just the wrong unit choice (although its an extreme example, the same idea applies) gettting put speed instead of burrowed movement is the standard. for a reason too. you wanan be able to outrun stalkers and other toss units and be faster on the map, for reasons of map control and agression. burrowed movement comes after that and even then its situational , especially if you base your army around roaches AND hydras, which do not profit from burrowed movement at all. in addition theres the fact that you need another uprade in order to make burrowed movement feasible, namely burrow. apart from that, the thread has already deviated far from the july-mc example and now seems to revolve mostly around forcefields in general. and a 4gate that hits with 4-5 sentries can still ff your ramp forever while burrowed movement can not even be thought about at that point of the game. | ||
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