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On March 20 2011 02:45 clik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 02:28 krok(obs) wrote:
since were dealing with force fields alone in this thread, id like to bring up an idea ive mentioned before, namely making forcefields not be able to cast on spots that are already blocked by units. this way you can still maintin your defensive stance with forcefields but youd have to cast them earlier. this would make it a lot more difficult to try to separate the opponents army as well as making it possible to prevent the toss player from forcefielding YOUR ramp in order to maintain the flow of reinforcements.
kinda sounds like a good idea to me I like this idea. Kind of adds more skill to both sides. The Zerg has to anticpate and position correctly and the Protoss has to put a little more thought into where he places them instead of brute forcing his way by carving the army how he pleases or pushing units around. Not even a "nerf" as it affects everyone and just changes the way they are used.
Bad idea, it makes ramps impossible to defend early game against lightning fast zerglings and stimmed marines*. I'll hold position a marauder in the ramp and deny all hope of protoss surviving early game against terran.
I think my idea beats yours. IF there's one nerf I'd apply on FF, it would be giving it a cooldown.
*Considering an average mid-skilled dude. MC could definitely pull it off on perfect timing 
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On March 20 2011 02:44 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 02:37 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 20 2011 02:27 Zelniq wrote:On March 19 2011 18:22 H0i wrote:
For example MC vs July. Because of the huge number of forcefields, and MC's skill to place them, there was nothing july could do. I'm getting tired of hearing this, the reason why July kept being unable to hold off the attacks is because he didn't go for burrowed roach, instead kept making hydra dens or hydralisks or spires. You can easily hold those attacks with just burrowed roach, even easier if you went burrowed move instead of roach speed as the first roach warren upgrade, but you dont even need that all you need is burrow and roaches. It's like imagine if terrans were whining about similar force field attacks when terran made vikings, it's just the wrong unit choice (although its an extreme example, the same idea applies) I myself is tired of hearing this counter argument. Why is everyone saying burrowed roaches is the way to go. Roaches may be the counter to forcefield, but a 6 gate blink stalker ball RIPS it apart with or without observer. A zerg player plays the first 6 mins pretty much blind and cannot afford to go burrow roaches and btw it takes 2 upgrades to be viable. The timing of it leaves you pretty much vulnerable to stargate play, DT play and immortal builds as well. Just because u can pass forcefields with burrowed roaches does not mean its the best way to play in the situation. You have to consider the lack of intel July had. Can u assure yourself every game that your opponent is going 6 gate sentry? If your opponent is MC, I fear even luck is not enough to get enough information as overlord scouting is denied and lings cant go up his ramp wrong on so many accounts 1. roaches do not get ripped up apart by 6 gate blink stalker ball 2. it doesnt take 2 upgrades to be viable, if you have good control you dont need Burrowed Movement upgrade just Burrow 3. You can afford getting an overseer still and scouting for stargate play, and you can react and survive to that even if you dont use overseer/overlords to scout it. (as july managed to do in the game july won, he took a little damage but was fine dealing with the air after protoss revealed it to him) 4. DT play and immortals as well? now I just know you have no idea what youre talking about, you have lair and you can easily react to dts and be fine even if you didnt scout the tech/prepare beforehand. And once again like above you can afford to get an overseer + burrow to scout it anyways. Roaches aren't hard countered by immortals, you can still just make roaches and beat immortals I know this from experience of playing this game at a high level, ask other experienced top zergs they'll tell you the same thing, but your post clearly shows your lack of knowledge
1. Couldn't agree more with what you said.
2. I wish you'd just closed this thread lol.. the ignorance on display is making my head hurt
edit; The idea of not being able to FF where units are is terrible. How would one propose forcefielding against mass zerglings if you can't place a single FF where one ling is? Or trying to catch half the terran bio as they stim up your ramp?
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I was talking about that with Slush right now and he said that forcefield should be a channeling ability in his opinion. This change would make forcefield counterable by killing the sentry that is channeling it, it would also stop the sentry from attacking while putting down a forcefield prison but would still be viable to block your ramp / the other player's ramp / his army trying to retreat, etc. But the forcefielded player would have to micro to snipe the sentries that are channeling forcefields. I completly agree with that idea.
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On March 20 2011 02:44 Zelniq wrote:
1. roaches do not get ripped up apart by 6 gate blink stalker ball
I'm sorry but that's just not true. Well microed blink stalker absolutely destroy roaches. I haven't seen pure roach ever work against it outside of low tier play. Hydras work. A combination of lings and roaches with speed aren't cost effective but they can work if u can heavily outproduce the stalkers. Roaches alone tho, definitely not.
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"Terran beats Zerg in the GSL and has tournament success? MARINES IMBA!"
"Protoss beats Zerg in the GSL and has tournament success? COLLOSSI, FORCE FIELD IMBA!"
"Zerg wins GSL and has tournament success? A TRIUMPH OF INDIVIDUAL SKILL THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS IMBALANCE!"
It's really frustrating how people refuse to be objective about this. The game isn't imbalanced, just play and get better. Stop letting your opinions on the game be influenced by which group of people cries the loudest and stop telling me my race is OP every time i beat you in a ladder game.
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On March 20 2011 02:51 StateOfZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 02:44 Zelniq wrote:On March 20 2011 02:37 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 20 2011 02:27 Zelniq wrote:On March 19 2011 18:22 H0i wrote:
For example MC vs July. Because of the huge number of forcefields, and MC's skill to place them, there was nothing july could do. I'm getting tired of hearing this, the reason why July kept being unable to hold off the attacks is because he didn't go for burrowed roach, instead kept making hydra dens or hydralisks or spires. You can easily hold those attacks with just burrowed roach, even easier if you went burrowed move instead of roach speed as the first roach warren upgrade, but you dont even need that all you need is burrow and roaches. It's like imagine if terrans were whining about similar force field attacks when terran made vikings, it's just the wrong unit choice (although its an extreme example, the same idea applies) I myself is tired of hearing this counter argument. Why is everyone saying burrowed roaches is the way to go. Roaches may be the counter to forcefield, but a 6 gate blink stalker ball RIPS it apart with or without observer. A zerg player plays the first 6 mins pretty much blind and cannot afford to go burrow roaches and btw it takes 2 upgrades to be viable. The timing of it leaves you pretty much vulnerable to stargate play, DT play and immortal builds as well. Just because u can pass forcefields with burrowed roaches does not mean its the best way to play in the situation. You have to consider the lack of intel July had. Can u assure yourself every game that your opponent is going 6 gate sentry? If your opponent is MC, I fear even luck is not enough to get enough information as overlord scouting is denied and lings cant go up his ramp wrong on so many accounts 1. roaches do not get ripped up apart by 6 gate blink stalker ball 2. it doesnt take 2 upgrades to be viable, if you have good control you dont need Burrowed Movement upgrade just Burrow 3. You can afford getting an overseer still and scouting for stargate play, and you can react and survive to that even if you dont use overseer/overlords to scout it. (as july managed to do in the game july won, he took a little damage but was fine dealing with the air after protoss revealed it to him) 4. DT play and immortals as well? now I just know you have no idea what youre talking about, you have lair and you can easily react to dts and be fine even if you didnt scout the tech/prepare beforehand. And once again like above you can afford to get an overseer + burrow to scout it anyways. Roaches aren't hard countered by immortals, you can still just make roaches and beat immortals I know this from experience of playing this game at a high level, ask other experienced top zergs they'll tell you the same thing, but your post clearly shows your lack of knowledge My lack of knowledge? You play this game at a high level? I'm not questioning your authority, maybe you are a skilled player but your replies shows one of non zerg understanding. I play random 3200 masters SEA, 3500 NA. Roaches do get ripped apart from a 6 gate stalker ball. Try it yourself with decent blink micro in a realistic non wide area situation. second, you need burrow movement to negate forcefield's effects of dictating the rules of engagement. Proper burrow micro reduces your effective army count in an important battle which negates the fact whether u have a bigger army or not. You can afford to deflect a stargate, IF u can get lair faster than he gets a stargate expand off. Do u know that zergs have been getting lair later and later because its instalose against 4 gate? Last, DT and immortals it would be easy to counter. If I know whats going on in the first place in your base. Constant poking is negated by effective hiding of units in your main. At high level, denying zerg scout is all too easy. The fact is that the game has taken it to the extent that zergs are playing blind for the first 5 minutes and are getting punished too heavily. resulting in blind countering of 4 gate or overgreedy macro.
I love it when someone who has no idea of who people are, un-intentionally talks down to one of the best US players of their race as if they have no idea what they are talking about.
" you are a skilled player but your replies shows one of non zerg understanding."
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On March 20 2011 03:02 42x10 wrote:
"Terran beats Zerg in the GSL and has tournament success? MARINES IMBA!"
"Protoss beats Zerg in the GSL and has tournament success? COLLOSSI, FORCE FIELD IMBA!"
"Zerg wins GSL and has tournament success? A TRIUMPH OF INDIVIDUAL SKILL THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS IMBALANCE!"
It's really frustrating how people refuse to be objective about this. The game isn't imbalanced, just play and get better. Stop letting your opinions on the game be influenced by which group of people cries the loudest and stop telling me my race is OP every time i beat you in a ladder game.
Amen. Most concise and correct post in this thread.
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On March 20 2011 02:56 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 02:45 clik wrote:On March 20 2011 02:28 krok(obs) wrote:
since were dealing with force fields alone in this thread, id like to bring up an idea ive mentioned before, namely making forcefields not be able to cast on spots that are already blocked by units. this way you can still maintin your defensive stance with forcefields but youd have to cast them earlier. this would make it a lot more difficult to try to separate the opponents army as well as making it possible to prevent the toss player from forcefielding YOUR ramp in order to maintain the flow of reinforcements.
kinda sounds like a good idea to me I like this idea. Kind of adds more skill to both sides. The Zerg has to anticpate and position correctly and the Protoss has to put a little more thought into where he places them instead of brute forcing his way by carving the army how he pleases or pushing units around. Not even a "nerf" as it affects everyone and just changes the way they are used. Bad idea, it makes ramps impossible to defend early game against lightning fast zerglings and stimmed marines*. I'll hold position a marauder in the ramp and deny all hope of protoss surviving early game against terran. I think my idea beats yours. IF there's one nerf I'd apply on FF, it would be giving it a cooldown. *Considering an average mid-skilled dude. MC could definitely pull it off on perfect timing
We'll agree to disagree. I mean I don't really think FF's need to be nerfed anyways, though I will acknowledge a good idea just for the sake of it being a good idea.
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when blizzard say they REALLY REALLY like forcefields as #2 said, i must say, i too.
For me the mistake was on Julys site always, fighting with hydras offcreep on the smallest position on shakuras .... RLY ??? no ...
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United States7166 Posts
On March 20 2011 03:01 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 02:44 Zelniq wrote:
1. roaches do not get ripped up apart by 6 gate blink stalker ball
I'm sorry but that's just not true. Well microed blink stalker absolutely destroy roaches. I haven't seen pure roach ever work against it outside of low tier play. Hydras work. A combination of lings and roaches with speed aren't cost effective but they can work if u can heavily outproduce the stalkers. Roaches alone tho, definitely not.
L3gendary it sounds like you're talking about a 1 base blink stalker build, not an expo build where the timing comes much later and you can have speed and burrow and plenty of roaches in time. if that is what you're talking about, yes just pure roaches can work vs blink stalkers, i've experience playing vs Kiwi who's got probably the best protoss micro in NA, which certainly falls "outside of low tier play"
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On March 20 2011 02:59 Fredz wrote:
I was talking about that with Slush right now and he said that forcefield should be a channeling ability in his opinion. This change would make forcefield counterable by killing the sentry that is channeling it, it would also stop the sentry from attacking while putting down a forcefield prison but would still be viable to block your ramp / the other player's ramp / his army trying to retreat, etc. But the forcefielded player would have to micro to snipe the sentries that are channeling forcefields. I completly agree with that idea.
The problem is, that you wouldn't be able to get away without losing every single sentry.
The Protoss army is the slowest one compared to Zerg (2 Speed Upgrades) and Terran (Stim).
And I'm not sure if you could still defend you 3-Gate FE against zerg,
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also think that this is NOT wc3, there is more then micro there is multitask, macro etc etc so much to do and i dont see any "abuse" yet, just mistakes by opponents and july did ALOT BIG mistakes this time (it hurts me as july fan BUT he just did them ... stupid decisions from god of war i know it hurts me even saying it  )
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On March 19 2011 19:30 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:24 Apolo wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting. So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce. Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it.
No way in hell he would have held that with the build order he chose.
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On March 20 2011 02:59 Fredz wrote:
I was talking about that with Slush right now and he said that forcefield should be a channeling ability in his opinion. This change would make forcefield counterable by killing the sentry that is channeling it, it would also stop the sentry from attacking while putting down a forcefield prison but would still be viable to block your ramp / the other player's ramp / his army trying to retreat, etc. But the forcefielded player would have to micro to snipe the sentries that are channeling forcefields. I completly agree with that idea.
If this is the case a protoss army cannot retreat from an offensive manoeuvre or unfavourable fight without sacrificing 2-5 free sentries to his opponent. Toss units are just too slow to retreat.
How about making the sentry's attack beam cost energy to attack. 1 Energy per attack. Means you cannot rely on sentry damage if you want enough forcefields to pull off early FF shenanigans and forces you to have more stalkers in your army early.
It'd make the units ridiculously unforgiving for its cost though.
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yet another thread of people seeing one person with godly micro make something look OP. You know what? Complain enough that blizzard nerfs ff's so theyre completely useless. But if they do that, there is a 100% chance that they will buff zealot and stalker to compensate. If they do that, have fun getting rushed at 6 minutes every XvP matchup.
It's absolutely silly how so many people post that something is broken the second someone dominates a match with that unit/skill. Instead of trying to figure out how to work-around, people just say "ff op/ka op/marine op/marauder op/concussive op/etc" and cry enough/theorycraft nerfs until blizzard hears your woes. All in the name of balance though! Disgusting.
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Fungal would be more dynamic if it slowed instead of stopped.
Concussive shells sucks, and should be nerfed to 33% or 25% instead of 50%.
Force field - I don't really have a problem with it, except I think burrow should be hatch tech. Maybe nerf the duration or the cost?
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Oh I read some more comments and I do like the idea of FF not being able to "push" units away. Or maybe they can only push "light" units away? This way it still maintains its defensive purpose and prevents cutting the other army in half.
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I'm not here to whine or complain (though, god, I hate getting ramp-FF'd), I'm just trying to pull some potential solutions to situations like what occurred in Game 1. Let's take a look at the scouted information available to July.
Given that MC showed at least 1 Stalker and multiple Sentries, does that alone lead to "fake expo"? I don't think so, I feel as if more Protoss players have been doing a good job of trying to cover up their strategy by grabbing one of each these days.
MC did not throw down a Forge at the Pylon at his natural. Potentially telling as someone like MC should not forget that. At the very least, that is suspicious.
You can tell July is desperately trying to sneak a ling up and almost succeeds but only after he runs into a few more units. I don't think that alone is telling as these units were all sentries.
July did leave a ling down south, but not right outside MC's natural. This could have given him maybe enough time to have his 2 spines finish and ideally thrown down more.
July did not have an Overlord placed in the "dead-zone" behind MC's natural. This would have been the ultimate boon to him as he could have perfectly seen the 3 extra gates and the cancel (maybe, but that wouldn't be necessary as he has seen the gates). Then again, July might not expect to need an Overlord there as he had his lings in MC's natural. However, July did have an idle Overlord to the NE of MC's main which had plenty of time to get into position behind the natural.
With that high Sentry count, FF push is the only option once July scouts it. This basically (in my very inexperienced opinion) would necessitate a larger ground force in the Zerg's natural (which could handle the push on their own), a flanking force which could go for the probe or pylon, 3-4+ spines at the natural, or Roach burrow. I don't think he'd have had enough time for Lair->Burrow+Burrow Move unless he be-lined straight for it, and in that case he would not have been able to afford enough Roaches.
So, July lost because he was not able to scout everything. The FF at his ramp was extraneous to his loss IMO as he could still win if his ramp was FF'd and he had, say, 4+ spines at his natural.
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On March 20 2011 03:10 0neder wrote:
Fungal would be more dynamic if it slowed instead of stopped.
Concussive shells sucks, and should be nerfed to 33% or 25% instead of 50%.
Force field - I don't really have a problem with it, except I think burrow should be hatch tech. Maybe nerf the duration or the cost?
What if Fungal was altered to do more damage and more slow the more the opponent moves their units instead of just freezing them?
For example, for every certain distance a fungal'd unit is moved during the duration of the spell, it takes more damage and is slowed more. So it might take 35 damage total when standing still and have a 50% move speed reduction , but 70 damage total and 75% move speed reduction if it continues to move throughout the whole duration of the spell.
I disagree about Concussive. It's how Terran can punish an enemy engaging unwisely, just like Protoss and force fields.
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On March 20 2011 03:04 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 02:51 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 20 2011 02:44 Zelniq wrote:On March 20 2011 02:37 StateOfZerg wrote:On March 20 2011 02:27 Zelniq wrote:On March 19 2011 18:22 H0i wrote:
For example MC vs July. Because of the huge number of forcefields, and MC's skill to place them, there was nothing july could do. I'm getting tired of hearing this, the reason why July kept being unable to hold off the attacks is because he didn't go for burrowed roach, instead kept making hydra dens or hydralisks or spires. You can easily hold those attacks with just burrowed roach, even easier if you went burrowed move instead of roach speed as the first roach warren upgrade, but you dont even need that all you need is burrow and roaches. It's like imagine if terrans were whining about similar force field attacks when terran made vikings, it's just the wrong unit choice (although its an extreme example, the same idea applies) I myself is tired of hearing this counter argument. Why is everyone saying burrowed roaches is the way to go. Roaches may be the counter to forcefield, but a 6 gate blink stalker ball RIPS it apart with or without observer. A zerg player plays the first 6 mins pretty much blind and cannot afford to go burrow roaches and btw it takes 2 upgrades to be viable. The timing of it leaves you pretty much vulnerable to stargate play, DT play and immortal builds as well. Just because u can pass forcefields with burrowed roaches does not mean its the best way to play in the situation. You have to consider the lack of intel July had. Can u assure yourself every game that your opponent is going 6 gate sentry? If your opponent is MC, I fear even luck is not enough to get enough information as overlord scouting is denied and lings cant go up his ramp wrong on so many accounts 1. roaches do not get ripped up apart by 6 gate blink stalker ball 2. it doesnt take 2 upgrades to be viable, if you have good control you dont need Burrowed Movement upgrade just Burrow 3. You can afford getting an overseer still and scouting for stargate play, and you can react and survive to that even if you dont use overseer/overlords to scout it. (as july managed to do in the game july won, he took a little damage but was fine dealing with the air after protoss revealed it to him) 4. DT play and immortals as well? now I just know you have no idea what youre talking about, you have lair and you can easily react to dts and be fine even if you didnt scout the tech/prepare beforehand. And once again like above you can afford to get an overseer + burrow to scout it anyways. Roaches aren't hard countered by immortals, you can still just make roaches and beat immortals I know this from experience of playing this game at a high level, ask other experienced top zergs they'll tell you the same thing, but your post clearly shows your lack of knowledge My lack of knowledge? You play this game at a high level? I'm not questioning your authority, maybe you are a skilled player but your replies shows one of non zerg understanding. I play random 3200 masters SEA, 3500 NA. Roaches do get ripped apart from a 6 gate stalker ball. Try it yourself with decent blink micro in a realistic non wide area situation. second, you need burrow movement to negate forcefield's effects of dictating the rules of engagement. Proper burrow micro reduces your effective army count in an important battle which negates the fact whether u have a bigger army or not. You can afford to deflect a stargate, IF u can get lair faster than he gets a stargate expand off. Do u know that zergs have been getting lair later and later because its instalose against 4 gate? Last, DT and immortals it would be easy to counter. If I know whats going on in the first place in your base. Constant poking is negated by effective hiding of units in your main. At high level, denying zerg scout is all too easy. The fact is that the game has taken it to the extent that zergs are playing blind for the first 5 minutes and are getting punished too heavily. resulting in blind countering of 4 gate or overgreedy macro. I love it when someone who has no idea of who people are, un-intentionally talks down to one of the best US players of their race as if they have no idea what they are talking about. " you are a skilled player but your replies shows one of non zerg understanding."
I'm a SEA competitive player as well. I do not talk down a person's skill but a person's idea. I mean just cause you are good doesn't make it like you KNOW what you are talking about. I believe i did not insult nor did i deride him for his opinions. I just felt his opinions are not correct. and by the way I said I play random and I try put my ideas off as objective and not whine. Peace
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