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On March 20 2011 05:00 eluv wrote:
So I'd like to point out a real inconsistency in a lot of these posts. For months, on and off people have been complaining about a lack of "Overpowered' spells in Starcraft. The examples people brought up in BW were often things like dark swarm, irradiate, BW psi storm, stasis field etc.
This could be the start of exactly what you've been asking for. A spell that seems absolutely ridiculous, and will take time to develop counters too. With that in mind, the thing you should all be asking for isn't for a nerf to FF, but rather some sort of micro based answer for zerg. Is that adding a spell to overseers to disable casters? Is that giving burrow movement to more units like zerglings and hydras? I don't know, but what I do know is the last thing SC2 needs is more nerfs.
I do like this idea. Granted, it would require innovation only likely to be found in expansions - rather than any sort of nerfing/buffing that we're discussing - but that's the basic sort of concept I want to see in an eSport.
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I think that at this point just the forcefield spell is too strong + Show Spoiler +especially ZvP as we saw in the finals last night it almost seemed like mc just needed to throw a few good FF and he won and I know the forcefields were pretty well placed but you could tell he was just spamming them to trap any units he could in almost every game except the first one
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On March 20 2011 02:32 L3gendary wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 02:21 Exstasy wrote:
I don't understand?, Forcefields are strong for sure, but so are alot of abilities.
there is nothign wrong with them as far as I can see. There is a way to deal with it it's not broken, July just got a third spire tech hydra AND Burrow, no way he can afford enough roaches to hold a 2 base all in, let alone he didn't make any spines.
Soon everyone will figure this out the same way everyone figured out kyrixs low tier Aggression and Nestea Stopped MKP's Reign with marines back in Season 2. How can u "figure" it out? The whole point of FF is that u cant do anything about it. Only hydras with range upgrade can counter them but the rush comes at a timing before u can get them out. The problem is that zerg t1 units are melee or short range so when FF's are cast the majority of the army cant attack and the stalkers outrange the roaches (and the roaches cant move into range). Terran units on the other hand are ranged so they can still fight back even if blocked. Also game 1 was just impossible, what can u do when u cant even reinforce ur army. The roaches dont even have the range to attack from the cliff.
Burrowed Roach?, wipes the floor with this.
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On March 19 2011 18:56 wonderwall wrote:Show nested quote +
^ how much micro does holding down F and clicking your mouse in a circle take?
Doing forcefield micro like a pro such as mc or huk is difficult and requires skill. If you don't consider this true then try emulating what they are doing. It's the same as Marineking splitting his marines to negate banelings. He makes it work through his own skill as a player.
Marine vs Baneling micro is WAY different from "FF micro" M v B micro has both players microing intensely. Zerg has to split their banelings and lings up to deal with tanks and marauders. Terran then skilfully splits everything up to counter zerg's play and then it becomes a micro battle, seeing who can out micro the other player.
With FF its: He split the army...
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On March 20 2011 05:00 eluv wrote:
So I'd like to point out a real inconsistency in a lot of these posts. For months, on and off people have been complaining about a lack of "Overpowered' spells in Starcraft. The examples people brought up in BW were often things like dark swarm, irradiate, BW psi storm, stasis field etc.
This could be the start of exactly what you've been asking for. A spell that seems absolutely ridiculous, and will take time to develop counters too. With that in mind, the thing you should all be asking for isn't for a nerf to FF, but rather some sort of micro based answer for zerg. Is that adding a spell to overseers to disable casters? Is that giving burrow movement to more units like zerglings and hydras? I don't know, but what I do know is the last thing SC2 needs is more nerfs.
I'm for this idea.
I don't want the game to remove more abilities. I happy when i read : make it like broodwar and balance the imbalance.
Really I like your post, give zerg a way to deal with energy, or disable spells or with burrow it's really a better way to find solutions.
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On March 20 2011 05:31 hadoken5 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 18:56 wonderwall wrote:
^ how much micro does holding down F and clicking your mouse in a circle take?
Doing forcefield micro like a pro such as mc or huk is difficult and requires skill. If you don't consider this true then try emulating what they are doing. It's the same as Marineking splitting his marines to negate banelings. He makes it work through his own skill as a player. Marine vs Baneling micro is WAY different from "FF micro" M v B micro has both players microing intensely. Zerg has to split their banelings and lings up to deal with tanks and marauders. Terran then skilfully splits everything up to counter zerg's play and then it becomes a micro battle, seeing who can out micro the other player. With FF its: He split the army...
Splitting isn't that hard. I don't play T but can do it almost as well as pro players.
Micro isn't that hard.
User was temp banned for this post.
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July made some very bad choices that cost him 3 out of 4 games.
The game on Metalopolis was somewhat of an upset, but the thing is: he could have build more spine crawlers, rewatch the game, A SINGLE ADDITIONAL SPINE CRAWLER and he could have held this off long enough for his reinforcements to get down the ramp. The first battle was actually pretty dam close.
He sees a push with seven sentries + zealots is incoming and decides to make...drumroll...almost 20 ZERGLINGS. Here's a question, why not make two additional spine crawlers and only 12 zerglings? Sorry to say this, I'm a huge July fan and a zerg player myself, but that is just plain retarded decision making. You're setting yourself up for fail with a decision like this.
Also, he made FOUR overlords right before the attack came in. He was at 48/60 supply when he made those four overlords. That extra supply never saw any use. You build overlords in pairs of two after you get to 50 supply, not four at a time. Sloppy macro, wasted minerals that could have been used to defend MC's push instead. Sloppy macro at that specific point of time (right before a potential 4gate attack) will cost you the game.
He decided to get an extremely early evo chamber (before he had even confirmed the fast expand with his zerglings), aiming for a long macro game, again: plain bad decision making, If he had started that evo chamber AFTER he confirmed the fake fast expand with his zerglings, he could have canceled it in time, giving him even more income to defend this.
The thread of a 4gate attack is so big that you need to play it safe until that specific timing window has expired. If you play it greedy, if you invest too much into macroing it up, you will not be able to succesfully hold off a 4 gate attack. Especially if you decide to mass zerglings vs. a sentry and zealot heavy army...AFTER you scout said army composition.
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On March 20 2011 05:00 eluv wrote:
So I'd like to point out a real inconsistency in a lot of these posts. For months, on and off people have been complaining about a lack of "Overpowered' spells in Starcraft. The examples people brought up in BW were often things like dark swarm, irradiate, BW psi storm, stasis field etc.
This could be the start of exactly what you've been asking for. A spell that seems absolutely ridiculous, and will take time to develop counters too. With that in mind, the thing you should all be asking for isn't for a nerf to FF, but rather some sort of micro based answer for zerg. Is that adding a spell to overseers to disable casters? Is that giving burrow movement to more units like zerglings and hydras? I don't know, but what I do know is the last thing SC2 needs is more nerfs.
I don't think people wanted those spells to be in the game, everyone knows why they aren't, because of easy spellcasting.
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They had abilties which slowed or froze your oponents in sc1 but those abilities were rarely casted and would give a big OOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH moment. Its quite different with sc2 where sentries come out very quickly in tier 1.5. Changing FF seems a bit drastic, but July didn't really play perfectly in all those games where he had many drones and could had spent those on units. In the 2nd game I believe, July was going for a 3rd base when he could have made more army units.
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On March 20 2011 06:16 infinity2k9 wrote:
I don't think people wanted those spells to be in the game, everyone knows why they aren't, because of easy spellcasting.
Wait - what?
Please explain exactly what you mean here.
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None of these abilities stop micro unless the opposing play lets them go off. Yes, if you are cumpling your marines and you get hit by fungal, you can't move them. Yes, if you let your stalker get you by a marauder then you can't micro it, and yes, if your army is split and a choke is connecting them, half can be FF'd off. However, these things are all avoidable. So basically I disagree with your premise - you can totally out micro these moves.
The finals had nothing to do with ff imba. MC could have just done different builds and still slaughtered July. He was just outplaying the guy, in every way possible. July was leaving his units in easily FF'd positions, fighting with Hydras off creep, and getting out metagamed.
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Uh i mean exactly what i said. Everyone knows why very powerful spells like dark swarm are not in the game, because they would be too ridiculous with easy spellcasting. Same for psi-storm nerf.
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just so people know you forcefield faster by ignoring smartcast than by using it, reselecting the sentries and FFing again allow forcefields to go up simultaeously unless smartcasting shift clicks which wait for each FF to finish casting before the next starts.
EDIT: the only issue i've found with forcefield is sometimes if you tell your units to move away, if they are touching a FF they get bugged and just stand next to it to die.
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On March 20 2011 06:27 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 06:16 infinity2k9 wrote:
I don't think people wanted those spells to be in the game, everyone knows why they aren't, because of easy spellcasting. Wait - what? Please explain exactly what you mean here.
He means that the addition of auto-cast makes spell-casting much simpler. In BW powerful spells were partially balanced out by taking very high apm to use effectively. In SC2 if you have a group of casters selected, only one will cast every time you use the spell, while in BW they will all try to cast. None of that changes the fact that people complain about the lack of these sort of awesome spells in SC 2 though.
I'm of the opinion that casters should always be countered by other casters, preferably on different tiers. It leads to really amazing back and forth fights where a player holds out just barely, until suddenly he gets that key unit, and everything turns around, till his opponent gets the counter, and eventually we get up to epic 5 base games.
The dynamic right now with sentry/HT vs ghost is a perfect example of the kind of situation that creates excitement, something like Vessel vs Defiler/Scourge in BW.
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On March 20 2011 05:00 eluv wrote:
So I'd like to point out a real inconsistency in a lot of these posts. For months, on and off people have been complaining about a lack of "Overpowered' spells in Starcraft. The examples people brought up in BW were often things like dark swarm, irradiate, BW psi storm, stasis field etc.
This could be the start of exactly what you've been asking for. A spell that seems absolutely ridiculous, and will take time to develop counters too. With that in mind, the thing you should all be asking for isn't for a nerf to FF, but rather some sort of micro based answer for zerg. Is that adding a spell to overseers to disable casters? Is that giving burrow movement to more units like zerglings and hydras? I don't know, but what I do know is the last thing SC2 needs is more nerfs.
I don't think FF needs a nerf, but it sure is boring as hell to watch 
Now, you use the examples of OP spells in BW; thing is, you can micro to counter these things.
Irradiate? Split.
Dark Swarm? run or irradiate if you're terran
Psi Storm? run or snipe if you have mutas
Stasis? Spread or EMP the arbiter (doesn't get used in PvZ, so meh).
You also have to consider, all those spells you named come out very late into the game. FF comes as soon as your cyber core is done. Often, zerg would just snipe Scivessels and templar with scourge and mutas respectively. Zerg can't snipe sentries until they get mutas, which is way after the timings which MC was using. Now, I'm not saying we need to be able to snipe sentries to handle it, I'm just showing that the comparison between the OP spells in BW is slightly flawed, since there's nothing you can do to out-micro FF.
On March 20 2011 05:02 Rokk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2011 04:53 goiflin wrote:On March 20 2011 04:47 Morphs wrote:But there is also the problem of protoss needing to forcefield their ramp to survive certain rushes. Also something that should not happen, it just sounds and feels lame/unintuitive. Maybe Protoss just needs to start scouting, just like Zerg has to. But FFing the ramp just feels cheap. This FF on the ramp while taking the natural is complete bs imo. On Xel Naga for instance. You cannot reinforce from your main because of that. It's so lame and with 3 sentries you can already FF the ramp indefinitely. Make it 75 energy for fairness. + Show Spoiler +Actually, you need six sentries to hold a ramp indefinitely. Protoss has no easy way to scout; solo gateway units get eaten by zerglings and barracks units, and GL getting a probe into your opponent's base when he's got speedlings or marines out on the field. Zerg have overlords, which they can camp near your base so that they can sac it to get info, and terran have scans if they have a dire need to get info. Protoss has the observer after they get a robo, and most timing attacks that threaten protoss are going to come out before your observer, or you'll need an immo to survive, so no obs. Protoss kinda does need FF to help with rushes. It'd just be nice if 12 sentries and 4 stalkers couldn't kill infinity roaches. by the time zerg has speedlings, you should be very close to having hallucination researched. Until then you should be able to get all the scouting information you need with a couple of probes. Not saying that make your point moot, but still.
Never thought of that, for some reason. And I love me some hallucinate :D
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I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts can be made and Collossi. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
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On March 20 2011 06:34 eluv wrote:
The dynamic right now with sentry/HT vs ghost is a perfect example of the kind of situation that creates excitement, something like Vessel vs Defiler/Scourge in BW.
i don't see any excitement in ghosts owning P casters
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On March 20 2011 06:48 pzea469 wrote:
I think forcefields are fine, its just that zerg might need a better way to deal with it. I'm no pro but I notice that using them vs terran or protoss isnt so bad since Thors/ghosts can be made and Collossi. Zerg can make ultras to cancel forcefields but that just seems way too far, where as collossi and thors can come out fairly early.
All I'm saying is when i mass sentries vs terran and they see it they usually make a thor/ghosts and then my ff's dont mean much midgame. But vs zerg i can keep using them almost all game long. Maybe if there was a way to get ultras out faster, like if the cavern only required the lair or something. That way ultras would still be too expensive to make many of but you could at least make 2 or 3 to lead your army vs toss.
Thors can only destroy one FF at a time and when they do(walk against FF) they stop shooting. they are also slow and big. in big battles, every second counts and you lost half of your army before thors destroy the FFs.
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On March 20 2011 06:32 infinity2k9 wrote:
Uh i mean exactly what i said. Everyone knows why very powerful spells like dark swarm are not in the game, because they would be too ridiculous with easy spellcasting. Same for psi-storm nerf.
Dark Swarm IS in the game.
It's called PDD. =d
Terran would be sooooo strong if they could use raven more, but it's quite hard to pull off good raven builds for the moment.
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Netherlands484 Posts
On March 20 2011 06:30 Gentleman7 wrote:
None of these abilities stop micro unless the opposing play lets them go off. Yes, if you are cumpling your marines and you get hit by fungal, you can't move them. Yes, if you let your stalker get you by a marauder then you can't micro it, and yes, if your army is split and a choke is connecting them, half can be FF'd off. However, these things are all avoidable. So basically I disagree with your premise - you can totally out micro these moves.
The finals had nothing to do with ff imba. MC could have just done different builds and still slaughtered July. He was just outplaying the guy, in every way possible. July was leaving his units in easily FF'd positions, fighting with Hydras off creep, and getting out metagamed.
Show me how to:
- Engage a protoss army that has sentries without getting forcefielded
- Engage infestors without getting fungal'ed
- Engage marauders without being slowed
(when playing vs pro's)
So, no, these things are NOT avoidable. That's my whole problem with the mechanic.
And yeah mc was better, but still, july didn't get a chance to show anything, because mc placed his forcefields so well.
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EPT
