Abilities that nullify micro - Good or bad? - Page 17

LetoAtreides82

United States1188 Posts

March 19 2011 22:04 GMT

#321

On March 19 2011 19:02 CosmicSpiral wrote:

HuK can throw down forcefields with great precision, but his builds tend to be weaker on the macro side so he has less of everything for his pushes.

Huk's forcefields are pretty good, but they're not at MC's level.

Oreo7

United States1647 Posts

March 19 2011 22:12 GMT

#322

On March 20 2011 07:04 H0i wrote:

Show nested quote +

Show me how to:

- Engage a protoss army that has sentries without getting forcefielded
- Engage infestors without getting fungal'ed
- Engage marauders without being slowed

(when playing vs pro's)

So, no, these things are NOT avoidable. That's my whole problem with the mechanic.

And yeah mc was better, but still, july didn't get a chance to show anything, because mc placed his forcefields so well.

-Engage in open, retreat fast and often
-split
-Micro back (this one is less avoidable but also doesn't totally negate micro upon cast...slightly different than the other two I think).

I just don't think we've seen someone play zerg like MC plays protoss. The potential is still there in units like banelings, and infestors, but MC is just much better than most zerg players.

Sworn

Canada920 Posts

March 19 2011 22:17 GMT

#323

I wouldn't Include concussive shells as they don't really negate micro they increase it... Fungal to isnt really as big. I think FF is the only one that really destroys micro hopefully they make a good change to it because it looked way OP in the GSL.

H0i

Netherlands484 Posts

March 19 2011 22:17 GMT

#324

On March 20 2011 07:12 Gentleman7 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Are you serious? Lol?

Just look at some games, it's basically impossible to avoid these moves. Sure you can split but still you'll be hit, and when you attack all units bunch up. Even if you would make every unit attack individually it will still be easy to hit the units with ff/cs/fg. Maps don't have a lot of open space but if you look at the finals you'll see that MC used his ff's against july's units on many open spots (for example on shakuras). Besides that micro-ing back against CS is exactly what a terran wants you to do, because it will allow him to kill quite a large part of your army (the slowed units) for free, which costs you the game.

But please don't forget this thread is about more than just MC vs July.

DoubleReed

United States4130 Posts

March 19 2011 22:20 GMT

#325

As a zerg player, I don't see how much different this is than speedling surrounds. If speedlings are on the field, then you essentially cannot move out unless you know you can win, lest you get surrounded and destroyed.

The main difference in my opinion is that forcefield can be baited to waste sentry energy, and the fact that sentries are so gas heavy.

I'm sorry but just because they're awesome doesn't mean they're imbalanced or really problematic.

Disarm22

United States151 Posts

March 19 2011 22:33 GMT

#326

Food for thought. What if funal growth lasted 15 seconds without damaging the enemy. Simply held them in their place unable to do anything while you had a field day picking apart their army and dancing in front of your opponent. This would be ridiculous. Similarly, constant FF's on a ramp is ridiculous. Defensively they are needed but offensivley, they completely negate micro and army positioning and reinforcements.

keioh

France1099 Posts

March 19 2011 22:35 GMT

#327

A funny idea here : no one ever thought about reducing the size of the FF ?

freetgy

1720 Posts

March 19 2011 22:39 GMT

#328

On March 20 2011 07:33 Disarm22 wrote:
Food for thought. What if funal growth lasted 15 seconds without damaging the enemy. Simply held them in their place unable to do anything while you had a field day picking apart their army and dancing in front of your opponent. This would be ridiculous. Similarly, constant FF's on a ramp is ridiculous. Defensively they are needed but offensivley, they completely negate micro and army positioning and reinforcements.

how are you supposed to win as protoss without forcefields.
Protoss sadly is balanced around that FF both in defense and offense

Zerg is fast and can retreat
Terran can stim and retreat
Protoss can never retreat (most units are as fast as hydras off creep), if P goes out he has to be sure, that his base is safe, and that he judged the enemy army right, cause if not he has to have enough FF to hold himself or he just dies and loses the game.

look at the other way around, terran defends easily with bunkers Zerg has the mobility to defend, protoss has to have enough FF to hope to defend long enough to get "strong" techunits (colossus) out.
How is that balanced?

It isn't, at least it isn't meant to be from what we see Blizzard wanted protoss to play out.

.kv

United States2332 Posts

March 19 2011 22:46 GMT

#329

Forcefields are fine as they are right now...if you play Protoss then you know why we need the spell just as it is now...how can we expand safely against Z without...how do we hold off aggressive T pushes? We rely on forcefields...people say it's easy...all youhave to do is hold F and click everywhere...then you try copying MC...it's just like watching people split their marines...how hard can that be...you just box a couple and right click somewhere

eloist

United States1017 Posts

March 19 2011 22:48 GMT

#330

On March 20 2011 07:35 keioh wrote:
A funny idea here : no one ever thought about reducing the size of the FF ?

I did

SpinmovE

Canada119 Posts

March 19 2011 22:50 GMT

#331

On March 20 2011 07:48 eloist wrote:

Show nested quote +

I did

If it took more then 1 FF to block a ramp protoss would be in a terrible position early game.

Radipon

United States47 Posts

March 19 2011 23:26 GMT

#332

July didn't stand a chance on Metal. I really don't see any way he could've taken army, even if he had maphack. MC's ability to literally change the terrain at whim to make any engagement favorable even against reinforcements overrides any amount of preparation short of total prescience. There's no rationalization for the idea that sentries aren't a gamebreakingly lopsided unit.

Masq

Canada1792 Posts

March 19 2011 23:29 GMT

#333

Redesign forcefield to work like Jim Raynors ability (slow units movement/attack speed) while in the forcefield, or like Ensnare from BWs Queen.

Not being able to micro is stupid.

TheRabbi

Canada2 Posts

March 19 2011 23:46 GMT

#334

Am I wrong to think that this is just isolated? In reality it was just 1 best of 7. On the grandest of scales yes.

I just don't recall anybody having the amount of success with that ability that MC was able to have. If this is really a game breaker, then perhaps next season it will be more evident now that we see how it can be used to it's current maximum potential.

One thing to remember, is that Starcraft has a huge MetaGame behind it. You can't make drastic changes to game mechanics, because you see a player of July's caliber get dominated in one best of 7. We need to relax just a little bit and let the MetaGame evolve before we can make any conclusive decisions on what really needs to be done. Being to hasty to make changes will ultimately dilute game play.

I think everyone needs to relax right now, and just observe how the MetaGame unfolds over the next couple of months.

Av4st

Canada92 Posts

March 19 2011 23:46 GMT

#335

The problem with forcefields lie in the fact that they create situations where the outcome of a game is in the hands of only the protoss player rather than both players.

My suggestion:

Make it so that you can't place forcefields in spots where a unit is already standing like with buildings. This means that the protoss can still block their ramp, and still somewhat use forcefields effectively in battle, but other races have a chance to nullify the strategies that are bad for the game like a protoss blocking the other player's ramp or cutting an army in half whenever they feel like it.

des0lar

Austria126 Posts

March 19 2011 23:57 GMT

#336

The Problem isn't only about Force Field.

It's about Warp-In as well.

Block enemy ramp + warp in your units at the enemies base and you have yourself a recipe for something crazy. Neither Terran nor Zerg can do something like that. Negate defenders advantage and abuse small chokepoints to cut armies and get free kills.

giuocob

United States149 Posts

March 19 2011 23:58 GMT

#337

As a protoss player, I agree that force fields may be slightly too powerful. The balance concept behind being able to snip snap the battlefield into pieces like MC did to July is that a.It requires skill and b.Messing it up is a massive disadvantage to the protoss player. a is fulfilled, and any terran or zerg who claims that it's nothing more than spamming f in a circle is probably terrible at starcraft, but b is not so much. If you invest in 10 sentries while doing a 3gate expand, and you throw out 6 forcefields to catch some lings but completely botch it, it's not actually that big of a blow when you're regenerating force fields that quickly. I think a reasonable change would be to increase forcefield energy to 75, guardian shield to 100, and starting energy to 75. This would not in any way remove these heavy sentry pushes from the game (10 sentries with 2 forcefields each is still a crapton). If anything, it would make them more exciting; MC still would have won most of those pushes with half as many forcefields in the bank, it would just have been a lot more impressive knowing that if he messed it up, he was going to get rolled over by the counter instead of being able to retreat and ff his way to safety.

Attica

United States277 Posts

March 20 2011 00:03 GMT

#338

I think the unit pathing AI makes forcefields a lot worse than they should be. I don't understand why units get stuck on 2 forcefields when they can just walk around. Instead they stand in place and move back and forth rapidly.

I also think 1 sentry being able to cast 4 forcefields is silly. The energy should be around 75. Each one lasting 15 seconds is very high as well. One sentry can lock down a ramp for a minute. How long does it take for a toss army to rape your natural.

Games should be decided by peoples skill as well as their choices. If there's an ability that doesn't let skill or choice into consideration for the opposition then it is broken. I believe forcefield falls under that category.

FeyFey

Germany10114 Posts

March 20 2011 00:32 GMT

#339

i like these skills because they force pre battle micro, also like those skills because they force some micro(as the ai gets beaten up by a certain skill in discussion here). Just because the standard micro doesn't work her doesn't mean they stop micro completly.
Anyway I don't really care since forcefields will be kept anyway, maybe not the concussiv but any other ability will be better anyway and will get more tears. Btw stasis on your own units on a ramp ftw, with a recall follow up. Now thats a super sentry or also called mr arbiter for you.

Xapti

Canada2473 Posts

March 20 2011 02:16 GMT

#340

WTF is people saying FF takes tons of skill? yes it uses SOME skill and SOME thougt, but all you need is mediocre reaction, mediocre precision, and some basic knowledge on when and how to FF.

Anyone who gets gold on psionic defense should be able to use forcefields to 80-90% efficency. The extra 10% good players use FF with does not make a world of difference, it's a problem at all levels of play for exactly the reason that it's effect's are not balanced with the skill to use it.

FFs should last for less time and/or be attackable destructibles, that way with god micro units can break the ridiculous walls that are being imposed on them that they can otherwise do almost nothing about.

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Abilities that nullify micro - Good or bad? - Page 17

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