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Abilities that nullify micro - Good or bad? - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 General
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HoT
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States69 Posts
March 20 2011 02:31 GMT
#341
HONESTLY, maybe they wouldn't be such a problem if they didn't last 100years when you lay them, 3-5 seconds would be good, or give them recharge/cost more energy.
Khalleb
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1909 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 02:40:59
March 20 2011 02:38 GMT
#342
i think the best idea is to make the sentry energi pool lower, because like every toss say, the early game all in/cheese would be really really really hard to deal with and you gonna see alot more 4 gate play since toss won't be able to fast or relativly soon expand. That mean if they reduce the energy pool, it will be less forcefield and even less with the GS. And for help the def for zerg against FF why no make the queen massif, that will make phoenix easier to deal with too
Liquid'Nony: "I only needed one probe to take down idra. I had to upgrade to a zealot for strelok."
HoT
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States69 Posts
March 20 2011 02:55 GMT
#343
On March 20 2011 11:38 KhAlleB wrote:
i think the best idea is to make the sentry energi pool lower, because like every toss say, the early game all in/cheese would be really really really hard to deal with and you gonna see alot more 4 gate play since toss won't be able to fast or relativly soon expand. That mean if they reduce the energy pool, it will be less forcefield and even less with the GS. And for help the def for zerg against FF why no make the queen massif, that will make phoenix easier to deal with too


I totally agree, your mention is very good idea. hmmm specially about the queen and phoenix.
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
March 20 2011 02:58 GMT
#344
Easiest way to "fix" the forcefield. Make overlapped forcefields negate each other. I hate to even give an example... but seriously, what is wrong with forcefields? It simply forces other tech to quash, just like everything else in this game.

Giving the forcefield health would be a disaster because of the units that it's meant to zone. Either it would have to have an inordinately huge amount of health, or little health and a bazillion armor... and neither would help vs a ball of marines. (unless it had thousands of HP and then it wouldn't even matter.

Adapt to it. Don't complain. Don't ask for horrendous balance changes because your favorite player lost.
A time to live.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
March 20 2011 03:01 GMT
#345
On March 20 2011 11:31 HoT wrote:
HONESTLY, maybe they wouldn't be such a problem if they didn't last 100years when you lay them, 3-5 seconds would be good, or give them recharge/cost more energy.


I'd love to see 25 energy forcefields at 1/2 the duration and see how that works. At least in that case if players FF, but get their sentries sniped then it's a big deal. Likewise players would be forced to have to place FFs properly multiple times during a battle increasing the chance they place poor force fields.

On the other hand there's possible issues with 25 energy FF meaning a few sentries can completely lock down large areas and 1/2 duration might still be long enough to give the P too good of an advantage.
Logo
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
March 20 2011 03:23 GMT
#346
On March 20 2011 11:31 HoT wrote:
HONESTLY, maybe they wouldn't be such a problem if they didn't last 100years when you lay them, 3-5 seconds would be good, or give them recharge/cost more energy.


3-5 seconds would be a pretty huge change, so blizzard wouldn't implement that. It would be nice though if they reduced it to 8-10 seconds. FF would still be powerful but at least not ridiculous like it is now.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
March 20 2011 03:24 GMT
#347
I don't see why this game has spurred such an incredibly intense debate. The better player won. The (arguably) BEST SCII player won. Also I don't know how FF became the focus of the debate, when it is (again arguably) weaker than FG (also why is Conc shells part of this? it takes micro to a whole new level).

In reality, Protoss has 2 ways to control where engagements are (FF, Storm), zerg has 1 (FG), Terran 0 (siege maybe) thus we are really only left with another example of how the races are different.
Freeeeeeedom
happyness
Profile Joined June 2010
United States2400 Posts
March 20 2011 03:28 GMT
#348
On March 20 2011 12:24 cLutZ wrote:
I don't see why this game has spurred such an incredibly intense debate. The better player won. The (arguably) BEST SCII player won. Also I don't know how FF became the focus of the debate, when it is (again arguably) weaker than FG (also why is Conc shells part of this? it takes micro to a whole new level).

In reality, Protoss has 2 ways to control where engagements are (FF, Storm), zerg has 1 (FG), Terran 0 (siege maybe) thus we are really only left with another example of how the races are different.


LOL Are you trolling? FG is better than FF?!?!?

LOL

Also terran has concussive shells and stim, meaning the opponent can't retreat.
HoT
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States69 Posts
March 20 2011 03:30 GMT
#349
On March 20 2011 11:58 ShatterZer0 wrote:
Easiest way to "fix" the forcefield. Make overlapped forcefields negate each other. I hate to even give an example... but seriously, what is wrong with forcefields? It simply forces other tech to quash, just like everything else in this game.

Giving the forcefield health would be a disaster because of the units that it's meant to zone. Either it would have to have an inordinately huge amount of health, or little health and a bazillion armor... and neither would help vs a ball of marines. (unless it had thousands of HP and then it wouldn't even matter.

Adapt to it. Don't complain. Don't ask for horrendous balance changes because your favorite player lost.


Nothing to do with July being my favorite to be honest, this type of thing happens quite a bit GSL or not, even in beta. It'd be different if it didnt last forever in a day. Hard to adapt to it especially when you are vesred with someone that is as skill as MC, seriously bro...
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 03:44:40
March 20 2011 03:37 GMT
#350
On March 20 2011 12:28 happyness wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2011 12:24 cLutZ wrote:
I don't see why this game has spurred such an incredibly intense debate. The better player won. The (arguably) BEST SCII player won. Also I don't know how FF became the focus of the debate, when it is (again arguably) weaker than FG (also why is Conc shells part of this? it takes micro to a whole new level).

In reality, Protoss has 2 ways to control where engagements are (FF, Storm), zerg has 1 (FG), Terran 0 (siege maybe) thus we are really only left with another example of how the races are different.


LOL Are you trolling? FG is better than FF?!?!?

LOL

Also terran has concussive shells and stim, meaning the opponent can't retreat.


No. If Sentries had FG the Protoss army would be just as difficult to face, probably more difficult. The new FG after the patch would be worse for protoss, but just think about colossi ripping through your paralyzed forces that it easily outranges, one line of troops at a time. Protoss wouldn't even need the zealot meatshield, major encounters would be a roflstomp either way.

Edit.

P.S.
FG to Storm > FF to Storm as well
Freeeeeeedom
HoT
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States69 Posts
March 20 2011 03:43 GMT
#351
A bit off topic, why don't the hydralisk have hydralisk speed anymore, that type of thing saddens me deeply, I'm a broodwar fanatic, but some things i feel they should have left in the game...
sushiman
Profile Joined September 2003
Sweden2691 Posts
March 20 2011 03:45 GMT
#352
On March 20 2011 12:24 cLutZ wrote:
I don't see why this game has spurred such an incredibly intense debate. The better player won. The (arguably) BEST SCII player won. Also I don't know how FF became the focus of the debate, when it is (again arguably) weaker than FG (also why is Conc shells part of this? it takes micro to a whole new level).

In reality, Protoss has 2 ways to control where engagements are (FF, Storm), zerg has 1 (FG), Terran 0 (siege maybe) thus we are really only left with another example of how the races are different.

FG is great if you have banelings and is fighting bio, and against some air units, not so much against anything else. Concussive shells are awesome, and extremely good for control - units can't retreat from marauders, melee can't come close. No idea what you're talking about there.

As for FF's - I don't find them imbalanced at all. They can be annoying, yes, but can be negated with baiting and proper spread. + Show Spoiler [GSL spoiler] +
July vs MC is a good example of how to NOT fight against FF's; July rushing in with clumped up roaches against 11 sentries. The more clumped up units are, the stronger FF's get. Splitting up a concave is harder, more units can retreat if necessary, and sentries waste tons of energy with extra fields casted.

Forcefields have been discussed to death since beta, and it always resurfaces now and then. But fact is protoss needs them for both defense and offense to get any use for their gateway units.
1000 at least.
StateOfZerg
Profile Joined March 2011
31 Posts
March 20 2011 03:59 GMT
#353
MC maybe more skilled of the two players in the finals. But being more skilled does not mean u totally drop an opponent into desperation. Clearly in many of MC's pushes july had no option of micro or retaliation. It makes alot of people angry because they start to notice that it is FF which comes out too early in the game, amass-able and abusive. Did u see the last game where pure sentries dissected a pure hydra drop by july? Sentries used by a skill player dissect armies in such a way that for the zerg or terran player, having a economy or larger army does not really matter because he can take minimal losses whilst slicing your army apart.

Being more skilled =/= total thrashing of another highly skilled player. The games have shown how abusive FF is and how much of the outcome of the game lying in the hands of protoss and not the zerg. I play random so I feel for both races when I say that forcefield needs a tweak. Also, dont give some BS about FF taking alot of skill to utilize. If u haven't tried BW blanket storms or dark swarm usage, then dont bother saying such stuff; just because you lack the skill to use FF properly doesn't mean others can't too.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 04:08:24
March 20 2011 03:59 GMT
#354
On March 20 2011 12:45 sushiman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2011 12:24 cLutZ wrote:
I don't see why this game has spurred such an incredibly intense debate. The better player won. The (arguably) BEST SCII player won. Also I don't know how FF became the focus of the debate, when it is (again arguably) weaker than FG (also why is Conc shells part of this? it takes micro to a whole new level).

In reality, Protoss has 2 ways to control where engagements are (FF, Storm), zerg has 1 (FG), Terran 0 (siege maybe) thus we are really only left with another example of how the races are different.

FG is great if you have banelings and is fighting bio, and against some air units, not so much against anything else. Concussive shells are awesome, and extremely good for control - units can't retreat from marauders, melee can't come close. No idea what you're talking about there.

As for FF's - I don't find them imbalanced at all. They can be annoying, yes, but can be negated with baiting and proper spread. + Show Spoiler [GSL spoiler] +
July vs MC is a good example of how to NOT fight against FF's; July rushing in with clumped up roaches against 11 sentries. The more clumped up units are, the stronger FF's get. Splitting up a concave is harder, more units can retreat if necessary, and sentries waste tons of energy with extra fields casted.

Forcefields have been discussed to death since beta, and it always resurfaces now and then. But fact is protoss needs them for both defense and offense to get any use for their gateway units.


But if you are going to talk about Conc Shells you might as well talk about blink, it has nearly the same effect of preventing retreat. Examining things in a box continues to be done, and it continues to be done poorly.

On March 20 2011 12:59 StateOfZerg wrote:
MC maybe more skilled of the two players in the finals. But being more skilled does not mean u totally drop an opponent into desperation. Clearly in many of MC's pushes july had no option of micro or retaliation. It makes alot of people angry because they start to notice that it is FF which comes out too early in the game, amass-able and abusive. Did u see the last game where pure sentries dissected a pure hydra drop by july? Sentries used by a skill player dissect armies in such a way that for the zerg or terran player, having a economy or larger army does not really matter because he can take minimal losses whilst slicing your army apart.

Being more skilled =/= total thrashing of another highly skilled player. The games have shown how abusive FF is and how much of the outcome of the game lying in the hands of protoss and not the zerg. I play random so I feel for both races when I say that forcefield needs a tweak. Also, dont give some BS about FF taking alot of skill to utilize. If u haven't tried BW blanket storms or dark swarm usage, then dont bother saying such stuff; just because you lack the skill to use FF properly doesn't mean others can't too.


And yes being better should translate into a total dismantling of the opponent.
Freeeeeeedom
Angra
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2652 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 04:05:54
March 20 2011 04:04 GMT
#355
Force fields, concussive shells and fungal growth are all absolutely awful for the game.

It's 99% of the reason why we see people massing up armies in their natural all game instead of moving around the map and engaging in skirmishes all over the place. If you push out and try to do any prodding at all before you have an economic advantage, you risk losing the entire game because of getting a portion of your units trapped by one of these 3 abilities.

Regardless of how "cool" Blizzard thinks they are, they make the game a million times more boring than it would be without them in the long run.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
March 20 2011 04:08 GMT
#356
On March 20 2011 13:04 Angra wrote:
Force fields, concussive shells and fungal growth are all absolutely awful for the game.

It's 99% of the reason why we see people massing up armies in their natural all game instead of moving around the map and engaging in skirmishes all over the place. If you push out and try to do any prodding at all before you have an economic advantage, you risk losing the entire game because of getting a portion of your units trapped by one of these 3 abilities.

Regardless of how "cool" Blizzard thinks they are, they make the game a million times more boring than it would be without them in the long run.


Again, I fail to see how that is any different from getting surrounded with speedlings. These abilities let people punish mistakes much more. I see that as a good thing, especially as not only zerg can do it now.
Khalleb
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Canada1909 Posts
March 20 2011 04:12 GMT
#357
On March 20 2011 13:08 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2011 13:04 Angra wrote:
Force fields, concussive shells and fungal growth are all absolutely awful for the game.

It's 99% of the reason why we see people massing up armies in their natural all game instead of moving around the map and engaging in skirmishes all over the place. If you push out and try to do any prodding at all before you have an economic advantage, you risk losing the entire game because of getting a portion of your units trapped by one of these 3 abilities.

Regardless of how "cool" Blizzard thinks they are, they make the game a million times more boring than it would be without them in the long run.


Again, I fail to see how that is any different from getting surrounded with speedlings. These abilities let people punish mistakes much more. I see that as a good thing, especially as not only zerg can do it now.


the difference is ling surround can't cut off army unlike FF
Liquid'Nony: "I only needed one probe to take down idra. I had to upgrade to a zealot for strelok."
Angra
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2652 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 04:14:37
March 20 2011 04:14 GMT
#358
On March 20 2011 13:08 DoubleReed wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 20 2011 13:04 Angra wrote:
Force fields, concussive shells and fungal growth are all absolutely awful for the game.

It's 99% of the reason why we see people massing up armies in their natural all game instead of moving around the map and engaging in skirmishes all over the place. If you push out and try to do any prodding at all before you have an economic advantage, you risk losing the entire game because of getting a portion of your units trapped by one of these 3 abilities.

Regardless of how "cool" Blizzard thinks they are, they make the game a million times more boring than it would be without them in the long run.


Again, I fail to see how that is any different from getting surrounded with speedlings. These abilities let people punish mistakes much more. I see that as a good thing, especially as not only zerg can do it now.


I was actually just about to edit my post and include speedlings in there too as a lesser form of the other 3. :p I definitely think they should tone down speedling movespeed but up their dps in other ways.

The thing is, it's not even just punishing mistakes. It's punishing movement, prodding, and aggression at ALL outside of your protected natural. There's a huge difference between attacking right into someone's natural and getting punished for it, and walking around the middle of the map trying to find an opening, encountering the other army, and then not being able to retreat half of your army because they get trapped just for moving it out of your natural.
Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
March 20 2011 04:17 GMT
#359
This is a silly discussion. When you see a ton of sentries, you avoid engaging them, or try to force the forcefields out early. The same goes for marauders. You just avoid engaging them if you don't have enough units to either win the battle or secure a retreat.. It's that simple. You just micromanage your units and decision-making before the forcefields, fungals, concussive shells.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
Utinni
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada1196 Posts
March 20 2011 04:19 GMT
#360
On March 20 2011 13:17 Wolf wrote:
This is a silly discussion. When you see a ton of sentries, you avoid engaging them, or try to force the forcefields out early. The same goes for marauders. You just avoid engaging them if you don't have enough units to either win the battle or secure a retreat.. It's that simple. You just micromanage your units and decision-making before the forcefields, fungals, concussive shells.

People will learn eventually rather than complaining. All of this will take time though.
“... you don’t have to be Sun freakin Tzu to know that real fighting isn’t about killing or even hurting the other guy, it’s about scaring him enough to call it a day.” - Max Brooks: World War Z
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