EPT-->try them. shockingly good synergy with roach/hydra
Abilities that nullify micro - Good or bad? - Page 19
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CookieMaker
Canada880 Posts
-->try them. shockingly good synergy with roach/hydra | ||
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Angra
United States2652 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:17 Wolf wrote: This is a silly discussion. When you see a ton of sentries, you avoid engaging them, or try to force the forcefields out early. The same goes for marauders. You just avoid engaging them if you don't have enough units to either win the battle or secure a retreat.. It's that simple. You just micromanage your units and decision-making before the forcefields, fungals, concussive shells. Regardless of how you can or can't beat it, is it even fun at all to watch or play? I really don't think so. I mean look at the ways to beat these mechanics that you just said: "avoid engaging" in two different situations. How does that make for an exciting esport at all? That's why you see GSL matches end up with two armies camped at naturals for 20 minutes, instead of 20 minutes of exciting skirmishes and movement all across the map. | ||
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Veritask
260 Posts
For EMP, I think it would be interesting to see either a missile animation or a DOT effect. Either one of these allows the opponent to micro out of at least some damage. | ||
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redbrain
Northern Ireland117 Posts
1 : Queens = Massive = break FF and give the Queen a buff so they can actually kill a zealot considering a queen is more expensive than a zealot and 10x more important than a zealot. 2 : FF lasts far far far too long and costs pretty much zero energy giving the ability to protoss that roaches cant actually hit you all the while you just lol and use stalkers. 3 : Switch hydra to T1 and roach to T2 with hydra range upgrade actually can negate alot of sentry FF spam because they can still actually shoot at the enemy. 4 : Nerf warpgates they come FAR FAR FAR too early in the game for such an amazing ability, protoss dont have to learn to macro gateways anymore only robo's and stargates. This would actually fix PvP if warp gates costs 200-200 and build time increase they might actually see more back and forth play in PvP Protoss has become this ezmode button and its really boring to watch their games because yeah they can be super tactical and sneaky but really their units are just amazing and if you play zerg and go to play protoss your scouting is 10x better than pure protoss players alot of the time and you can hit so many really disgusting timming attacks that simply just crrrripple zerg soooo hard. I have very little respect for protoss players anymore i used to like ogsmc but really this final was truely pathetic. Showing how strong warpgates and FF is vs zerg. | ||
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
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Utinni
Canada1196 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:21 Angra wrote: Regardless of how you can or can't beat it, is it even fun at all to watch or play? I really don't think so. I mean look at the ways to beat these mechanics that you just said: "avoid engaging" in two different situations. How does that make for an exciting esport at all? That's why you see GSL matches end up with two armies camped at naturals for 20 minutes, instead of 20 minutes of exciting skirmishes and movement all across the map. Not every game is just sitting at your natural building up. A season or two ago.... All we saw was marine rushes. That was super exciting, wasn't it! Nope... but it spawn more marine micro and eventually better maps. As he said above, you have to micro your army until you can get an advantage, whether it be: wasting his energy or just bad positioning. The game is new and still evolving. It's similar to SC:BW... but it is NOT SC:BW. You will learn new things every day just like everyone else. People will figure it out... so get use to it. | ||
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Ponyo
United States1231 Posts
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:32 hitman133 wrote: The problem is protoss at lower level need FF to survive the rush from other races. *Protoss at all levels need FF to survive rushes from other races | ||
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Utinni
Canada1196 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:36 Ponyo wrote: realistically its crazy how good forcefield with blink stalker micro can be. But the key is to not let your opponent get into that comfort zone, which really makes this really challenging for zerg. Ya, it reminds me of just letting zerg mass drone into mass mutas. Can't let that happen *rocks back and forth* | ||
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carbon_based
United States46 Posts
this game is designed by idiots and the whole problem is terran bio. why are force fields so strong and cheap? because toss needs tons of them placed perfectly just to stop a herp derp 3 rax. if terran bio weren't so damn strong there wouldn't be a need for huuuuuuuuuuge maps just for zerg to survive a freaking marine scv push, and guess what u suddenly balanced tvz and pvz is a huge mess now. gj blizz. the core terran units being glaringly overpowered is what is throwing this game into a horrible balance spiral and the fools at bliz's inability to realize it is starting to get on my nerves. | ||
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PatouPower
Canada1119 Posts
If you get all of your roaches in a single ball, in a narrow choke, then you deserve to die by forcefields. But if you provoke the Protoss in a wide area (e.g. The Shattered Temple middle), there is no way he's gonna win because of his forcefields, and then you are rewarded because of that. Also, roaches heal very fast underground, and they can move. If you time it correctly, you can quickly get out of forcefields and escape the protoss who just lost a lot of energy and being stuck with useless sentries. There again, you are awarded for your micro. In TvP, terrans can easily bait forcefields with stimmed bio. If the protoss reacts fast enough, thus has superior micro skills and succeeds in COMPLETELY blocking the retreating path, then he is awarded because of his micro. On the other hand, if they terran is quick enough and run back before he's completely blocked, he wins by making sentries waste energy. This is the same pattern as Muta harrass VS stimmed marines + medivacs in TvZ. | ||
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KoshkaTV
United States430 Posts
with either burrow, or drops, or infestors even.. you need to get a lair... and a lair takes a good amount of time for zerg. Lair + anti-FF upgrade = too much time for it to work. I think players of all races are getting stronger, but zerg has the least tools available early and therefore suffers early. | ||
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Flanagan
United States166 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:20 CookieMaker wrote: One word about FF's: Ultras. -->try them. shockingly good synergy with roach/hydra Ultra rush at 6:00? Sounds like a plan. Sure, if zerg players are smart enough, and I'm not being sarcastic, but 1 ultra in the late game with the army at all times... actually, more than one, works wonders with an army. But most of what the qq'ing, mixed in with actually logical and competent remarks... is the early push. 6 gate hits before hive. 4 gate hits before hive. Any 2 base semi-mid to early game from protoss side is before hive, if not, just getting started. Early - mid, it's just not ideal. Edit: Just gonna add, actually straight up ultra hydra is amazing. the roaches and ultras tending to bug themselves out. Just have good creep spread, and then you can actually get away. Edit2: Actually, there's a point that a lot of people are missing, I think. Everyone is talking about mid to late game answers on how to deal with this type of play, and that's fine. But it seems like that every zerg player is trying to say is that OUR EARLY GAME SUCKS. Which, it honestly does. We have little to no options in terms of what we want to do without going super all in.... basically, we have 2 different openings that people need to watch out for that our opponent, and that is all in and macro based play... if our opponent sees all in , they either have to (talking about one base play here for zerg): Terran: Wall with bunker. Protoss: Wall with ff's. Pretty simple, right? Once they're up, zerg all ins are nullified, unless the opponent is just bad. The amount of flexibility is immense for the other two races. Zergs have to know exactly which all in is coming to prepare for it... otherwise, you're dead. Just my two cents. | ||
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MiyaviTeddy
Canada697 Posts
Just because you can't micro your way out, does that mean you can't micro anymore at that point in time because you're in a corner, forcefield trapped? No, you're just tactically fucked. Fungal/Forcefields aren't always as easy as it seems. You're zerg, going to attack a stimmed group of marines that are nearly dead. They're running at you (whatever reason) and you're about to fungal they're ass and win that fight. You click on a spot where they'll run into and they JUST SO HAPPENS to turn back and avoided that fungal and for some reason you die. Two things: -The major thing happened here is that you lost in the mindgames where the terran ran at you, tried to bait out that fungal and ran. This scenario, it worked and you got screwed over with a bad fungal. -The second thing is, the micro was always there. It's just that, both players have a set of goal in mind and they got a plan. And everything went according to plan. Zerg wanted to fungal, so zerg went up or whatever and fungal'd where he wants to fungal to trap the marines and screw him over. Terran on the other hand, wants to juke the zerg player into wasting a fungal and runs in, baits it out and run. Point being is that (in my opinion, this should be the better definition) micro isn't moving shit around or nice storms, it's your overall (army) control and execution. Blinking dying stalkers back is a nice parlor trick, burrowing dying roaches is nice, but that isn't the epitome of micro, it's your control and execution of a plan to win the game | ||
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happyness
United States2400 Posts
On March 20 2011 12:37 cLutZ wrote: No. If Sentries had FG the Protoss army would be just as difficult to face, probably more difficult. The new FG after the patch would be worse for protoss, but just think about colossi ripping through your paralyzed forces that it easily outranges, one line of troops at a time. Protoss wouldn't even need the zealot meatshield, major encounters would be a roflstomp either way. Edit. P.S. FG to Storm > FF to Storm as well Too bad zerg doesn't have a colossus, so your argument is void. With the patch, FG will last 4 seconds. Compared to 15 for FF. FG can't cut off reinforcements. FG costs 75 energy and is really only viable late game when zerg's army is going to be weaker than toss's. Infestors cost more than sentries. I could keep listing reasons But anyways, I'm not saying FG is bad, but FF is definately better. And all your doing is theorycrafting. Can you give an example of a game between good players where FG effectively wins zerg a game vs toss? On March 20 2011 13:20 CookieMaker wrote: One word about FF's: Ultras. -->try them. shockingly good synergy with roach/hydra I think Ultra's are underused, but the argument is around the early game right now, and Ultra's are only viable to get late game. Plus if you ever get to that point in a game, the zerg has probably killed off most of the sentries and toss is focusing on collossus/stalker/immortal/archon. I don't think FF is too horrible late game, it's FF in the early/mid game where it gets ridiculous(on a pro level ofc) | ||
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Ageless
United States67 Posts
On March 19 2011 19:03 Durn wrote: I'm not trying to sound offensive here, but you really can't just look at one BO and call out the ability as being OP or needing to be removed. If you've watched any PvT lately, you'd know that FF are absolutely pertinent to staying alive through early stim pushes. So... to outright remove the ability from the game would leave a gaping hole in Protoss defense. I'm trying to speak impartially (I am a Zerg player) so I think it's unbiased when I say the ability has its place. That being said, in the capable hands of MC and his weird fast 4gas into 6gate Stalker/Sentry, it's ludicrous. I guess my question to you is, rather than just point out its flaws, how would you go about balancing the situation? My suggestion would be to make FF cost more energy or perhaps make it a Twilight Council upgrade? If you make it a TC upgrade then then it wont be out for early stim pushes and it will basically force protoss into one-base tech plays since toss need FFs to expo early. The FF is not broken in the slightest because terran can can simple hold down "A" all game long and never lose. And zerg can spam tier 1 ultras (roaches) and force tier 3 from toss. Toss has to tech to win, and they need FF to tech. FF is not OP and you can't look at one game and decide that. | ||
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Ageless
United States67 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:27 redbrain wrote: Man that final was awful i love gomtv and the production was truly amazing but zerg is soo broken at the moment its insane. FF is completely retarded as it stands really the only thing i see could be either: 1 : Queens = Massive = break FF and give the Queen a buff so they can actually kill a zealot considering a queen is more expensive than a zealot and 10x more important than a zealot. 2 : FF lasts far far far too long and costs pretty much zero energy giving the ability to protoss that roaches cant actually hit you all the while you just lol and use stalkers. 3 : Switch hydra to T1 and roach to T2 with hydra range upgrade actually can negate alot of sentry FF spam because they can still actually shoot at the enemy. 4 : Nerf warpgates they come FAR FAR FAR too early in the game for such an amazing ability, protoss dont have to learn to macro gateways anymore only robo's and stargates. This would actually fix PvP if warp gates costs 200-200 and build time increase they might actually see more back and forth play in PvP Protoss has become this ezmode button and its really boring to watch their games because yeah they can be super tactical and sneaky but really their units are just amazing and if you play zerg and go to play protoss your scouting is 10x better than pure protoss players alot of the time and you can hit so many really disgusting timming attacks that simply just crrrripple zerg soooo hard. I have very little respect for protoss players anymore i used to like ogsmc but really this final was truely pathetic. Showing how strong warpgates and FF is vs zerg. Queens are not a military unit, they are an econ unit. qqing about your race is not going to change the fact that too many zergs do not take advantage of timings since their builds are based around finding timings to drone and not timings to build attacking units. The goal of the game is kill your opponent, not get seven bases. Gateways build units SO SLOW that they are useless after 2:00 minutes. PvP cannot be fixed. Ever. It would simply become 2 gate vs. 2g gate. Protoss is not an easy mode. You just have to be a good player. Zerg is statistically OP even more than terran cause their units are hulk smashers which require NO MICRO just positioning. Do you have any idea how hard it is for toss to beat a fast roach zerg? It requires tons of micro while the zerg just 1 "a"s. And hydras are so good against GW units its not even funny. Finally, if FF didnt last that long toos would just simply die to any baneling bust and stim push that came by. It is time that zergs everywhere start becoming better at micro and stop complaining. | ||
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TyrantPotato
Australia1541 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:27 redbrain wrote: It is time that zergs everywhere start becoming better at micro and stop complaining. i remember when the 5 rax reaper was around. this was the line that was seen everywhere. on topic. personally i dont see FF imbalanced. just really really strong. like banelings, when they hit its gameover. but i will ask you this. how can zergs improve their micro to get out of a situation where they got 4-6 gated and their ramp is blocked? no complaints. just a simple question. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On March 20 2011 14:19 happyness wrote: Too bad zerg doesn't have a colossus, so your argument is void. With the patch, FG will last 4 seconds. Compared to 15 for FF. FG can't cut off reinforcements. FG costs 75 energy and is really only viable late game when zerg's army is going to be weaker than toss's. Infestors cost more than sentries. I could keep listing reasons But anyways, I'm not saying FG is bad, but FF is definately better. And all your doing is theorycrafting. Can you give an example of a game between good players where FG effectively wins zerg a game vs toss? No, just because Zerg does not have Collosus or High Templar does not make the argument void. Protoss has Colossus and HT because FF is WORSE than FG. The fact that you admit that Toss with FG would be ridiculous makes my point totally clear. FG>FF, Storm>Baneling, Colossus>Ultra (For pure aoe damage situations) IT makes perfect sense. I can give you an example of a game where FG wins a game: delaying until Ultras pop. But in any other situation the point is invalid. Roach/Hydra beats Zealot/Stalker/Sentry even with good FF placement, its only when T3 units get put into the mix that Protoss win (for the most part). | ||
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Elefanto
Switzerland3584 Posts
If you see in the early, he masses sentries, and doesn't go to much other units, build spine crawlers at your natural for instance. Spine crawler are immensly strong, they don't take up larva, and in the later stage you can even move them on the creep to defend new expansion / fortify positions. So if you see he builds a massive sentry count, build like 8 or 9 spine crawlers, and don't go roaches?Build Spine Crawler / lings in the early game, and then tech to hydras. Get your third base, and react to what the protoss is doing. Just an example, it doesn't have to be THE solution to the problem, but you can get around certain problems. I've got the feeling that sc2 has dumbed down everyone with it's easier functions. We mostly think about crushing the enemy army head-on. 1-aing our way to victory, with our army that counters the enemy army. Watch at the forge expansion into air protoss play that ace did at iem, everyone was buffled how to beat it. Then moon showed up and hydra dropped him. The same with july vs mc. Yeah, he hydra dropped against an air build. Unreasonable, but it works very well. | ||
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