EPTStasis
Lockdown
I thought those were both good abilities. I think FF is just maybe a little too cheap, expecially once EMP gets nerfed.
Abilities that nullify micro - Good or bad? - Page 20
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
0neder
United States3733 Posts
Stasis Lockdown I thought those were both good abilities. I think FF is just maybe a little too cheap, expecially once EMP gets nerfed. | ||
|
Skyze
Canada2324 Posts
I dont think July realizes that these are not SC1 spines.. they are MUCH stronger. And if he would of made afew of them, he would of probably held off every attack except for the one where he was softened by DTs first. Seriously, the hardest thing in the world to fight in PvZ for me, is when the zerg gets spine crawlers. It basically forces you to get collosus, because stalker/sentry/zealots are so fragile that spines take them out so fast.. AND still have to deal with the lings/roach/hydra after that. Oh.. and guess what.. You cant forcefield spine crawlers! If you have 4 of them (after seeing a 4gate obviously coming).. the Protoss HAS to deal with them first, then tackle the units too! Even 2 spine crawlers, make a much bigger difference than 4 roaches would. Not saying this would of changed the game, there was many other major mistakes July made.. but seriously; is any other zerg losing to 4gates?? No. No other protoss does such ultra mindf*cks as MC in which he waits til the expo nexus is 99% done before cancelling, or DTs into a 6gate push... but in a standard game, this whole conversation of Forcefield being imbalanced is fucking stupid. Learn how to defend a rush, Everytime a protoss forge fast expos vs a zerg who gets an early roach warren, they REQUIRE cannons to hold.. how come zergs cant learn to get 2 spines after seeing a 4gate?? | ||
|
DropDown
United States7 Posts
The suggestions in this thread are abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous. "oh just get burrow on roaches." Okay so zergs should be expected to tech to lair, get burrow, and get tunneling claws before protoss can make his first attack at the, what, 6:30 minute mark? Yeah, people have a point, burrow and burrow movement, as well as massive units are ways to counter FF and that's acceptable. But as we clearly have seen, these counters do not come early enough to be viable against early to early/mid game rushes, that simple. Let's take a look at warcraft 3 spells for a moment: the tier two unit sorceress has a default (much like sentry's default FF) slow ability, that will slow one unit's movement speed an attack speed. this can become a major problem for mostly tier one units making them ineffective and inefficient when fighting, and making retreating next to impossible. This unit, with its slow ability, is also seen as most effective against orc, as most of their units are slow moving and slow attacking to begin with. Orc can have a tough time against this unit without the proper counter, the tier two spell disenchant from the tier two unit the spirit walker. Why do I mention that disenchant is a tier two ability? Because it will take time for the ability to upgrade, where as slow is a default ability. I like to make this comparison to zerg and dealing with FF. Sentries gain the default ability FF. Sorceresses gain the default ability slow. Disenchant is a tier two ability which must be researched. Burrow and burrow movement are tier two abilities which must be researched. But wait, how does orc deal with slow before disenchant finishes? Orc has speed scrolls, which can make retreating from sorcerer's slow completely viable. Speed scrolls are a cheap, and effective way to retreat from this slow ability (slow essentially makes fighting/retreat impossible much like FF). My question is, why doesn't zerg have a way to counter FF at tier one. (Much as orc has a way to counter slow at tier one). It really makes no sense. Speed scrolls are only effective up to a certain point in the game, so the better alternative is needed eventually. So why not something like queens smashing FFs? It would only be effective on your own turf and would only work up to a certain point in the game, similar to speed scroll, which only works up to a certain point in the game as well. FF being a basic tier one ability, needs a basic tier one counter that's all there is to it. And none of this "but FF is hard to use" bullshit. If protoss has an ability that zerg cannot counter before a certain time, then protoss has the advantage before zerg has the counter. End of story. Another point: abilities that PREVENT movement altogether (to more than one unit at a time) do not belong in this game. Concussive shells make sense, because they SLOW but they do not PREVENT movement. In warcraft 3, the very fell spells that PREVENT movement to more than one unit at a time (as FFs do), last less than one and a half seconds. FFs last 15. "Durr but FFs dont prevent movement" you're wrong, yes they do. when your army gets cut in half, half of your army can either run into their army to their certain doom, or fight to the death. Sure, they can move, but they might as well not be able to. "Well dont fight in chokes stupid, durrr" when protoss has this ability, they get to choose where to engage, not zerg. And zerg is even further hindered by this because zerg wants to fight away from their base, so they can continue to make reinforcements, this lowers zerg's choices of where to fight even more so. | ||
|
Authweight
United States304 Posts
On March 19 2011 19:14 Jimmeh wrote: He got outraced. You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time. The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter. There's a great word to describe the timing of units that spawn just in time to get blocked at a ramp: late. July should have built more units earlier. He was totally faked out. That's just how the game is. I also felt that July let MC control the battlefield way to much. If you fight toss in small, cramped areas with tiny ramps, of course you lose. If you fight against walls, cliffs, or buildings, you're at a disadvantage. Once again, that's just how it is. MC played beautifully, July's response was weak and ineffective. I was really hoping for a July win, but MC made him look like a scrub. | ||
|
Signum
Canada99 Posts
On March 20 2011 17:45 Authweight wrote: There's a great word to describe the timing of units that spawn just in time to get blocked at a ramp: late. July should have built more units earlier. He was totally faked out. That's just how the game is. heres the thing, he wasnt faked out. tasteless and artosis made a point ot of july not seeing the cancel because they're commentators, but july knew what was happening the second mc moved out. he had cut drones by the time mc's army cleared the choke between his main ledge and thirds ledge. and he was outraced. how exactly was he supposed to react faster when ovie scouting is impossible against a warm opponent in those spawns? if zergs have to react faster, there has to be a means to see whats happening earlier. how was july supposed to know mc wasnt building probes? | ||
|
emc
United States3088 Posts
Think of it this way, the Toss is getting a shit ton of sentries for a reason, generally to defend your natural expansion and they can move out if they want to. If they see a bunch of spine crawlers they run away and suddenly the Zerg is behind on economy because they had to use drones for spines and larva for units, meanwhile the toss is continuing probe production and can just defend infinitely with all those sentries, get a robotics and observer and counter your unit composition perfectly. I'm not saying zerg can't do the same thing, but larva is the main factor here, you have to pump drones like a madman when toss takes his expansion and you get punished when he moves out and just cuts your army in half. My suggestion? Don't nerf FF, I think they are necessary, just buff Zerg in a way that ZvT is unaffected. Making Queens massive is one way, although It's too easy to make a lot of queens off two hatch and then FF would be useless. Maybe allow queens to evolve into a massive unit like they had in Alpha stages of SC2, where it costs gas to morph them and they lose their defensive abilities like Transfusion, spawn larva and creep tumors. Maybe burrow at hatchery after spawning pool? Possibly increase the research time so that it's almost to the point where it would take as much time to get a lair and burrow as it is now. I'm just throwing ideas out there but I think MC really showed how abusive you can be with FF. | ||
|
Signum
Canada99 Posts
| ||
|
Authweight
United States304 Posts
On March 20 2011 17:57 Signum wrote: heres the thing, he wasnt faked out. tasteless and artosis made a point ot of july not seeing the cancel because they're commentators, but july knew what was happening the second mc moved out. he had cut drones by the time mc's army cleared the choke between his main ledge and thirds ledge. and he was outraced. how exactly was he supposed to react faster when ovie scouting is impossible against a warm opponent in those spawns? if zergs have to react faster, there has to be a means to see whats happening earlier. how was july supposed to know mc wasnt building probes? I don't pretend to understand the balance involved precisely, and I'm not saying its balanced. I do know that saying July built units in time to defend the push is ridiculous when the whole reason he lost is that he didn't have units out in time to defend the push. The argument I responded to was essentially this: 1) July built units in time 2) FF stopped those units from being used 3) Therefore FF is broken My point is that its not that July built units quickly enough but FF unfairly blocked them at the ramp, its that because of FF July didn't build units quickly enough. Changing FF would alter the required timing, but so would changing build times, or changing scouting possibilities, or any of a hundred other possible changes. I don't know if it was possible for July to counter the push or not, I suck to much at this game to try and figure that out. | ||
|
SpaceGhost
United States61 Posts
On March 19 2011 18:51 theBOOCH wrote: One possible solution- increase the energy requirement for using forcefields while at the same time raising the starting energy of the sentry. This would mean that a single sentry would still be enough to defend a rush while not having so much energy as to become overly useful later in the game. Only a thought. This. I was thinking exactly this when I saw those games last night. The early game use of sentries would not be compromized, and Sentries could still be used to micro during other stages of the game, though not to the same extent. I think 75-80 starting energy/ ff requirement would be better. Otherwise Hallucination might not see as much play; and I really like what some people are doing with hallucinations right now (using them to blink onto high ground w/o an observer; warp in dts etc.) | ||
|
Signum
Canada99 Posts
On March 20 2011 18:40 Authweight wrote: I don't pretend to understand the balance involved precisely, and I'm not saying its balanced. I do know that saying July built units in time to defend the push is ridiculous when the whole reason he lost is that he didn't have units out in time to defend the push. The argument I responded to was essentially this: 1) July built units in time 2) FF stopped those units from being used 3) Therefore FF is broken My point is that its not that July built units quickly enough but FF unfairly blocked them at the ramp, its that because of FF July didn't build units quickly enough. Changing FF would alter the required timing, but so would changing build times, or changing scouting possibilities, or any of a hundred other possible changes. I don't know if it was possible for July to counter the push or not, I suck to much at this game to try and figure that out. i would think the argument 'july built his units on time' is actually something closer to 'july built his units within a reasonable time of the pushes start'. the timing argument depends on scouting as much as it does the race across the map vs the race down the ramp. if july couldn't be expected to practically scout out the fake sooner, than there is a problem. | ||
|
billy5000
United States865 Posts
If you guys don't know what I'm talking about, it was a tvp matchup and both players played standard: Terran went bio ball w/medvacs+vikings; toss, gateway units/colo/phoenix. Honestly, I have to admit there was some micro, but it wasn't what I expected. I think the majority of the micro was Boxer individually destroying colossus with his vikings and a few storms and forcefields. That's it, and it really made me wonder why Boxer's still playing sc2. Consequently, I think that micro is really a small part of sc2. This is the reason why I believe Blizzard came up with forcefields and whatnot. But still, anyone with a keyboard and mice and do it. Personally, I don't think abilities will ever replace the role of micro. Oh blizzard, just give us back our stone-age commands and limited highlight selections. Maybe a few tweaks here and there. You're killing the competition for the pros out there.. | ||
|
Penecks
United States600 Posts
| ||
|
Sabu113
United States11053 Posts
On March 20 2011 07:20 DoubleReed wrote: As a zerg player, I don't see how much different this is than speedling surrounds. If speedlings are on the field, then you essentially cannot move out unless you know you can win, lest you get surrounded and destroyed. The main difference in my opinion is that forcefield can be baited to waste sentry energy, and the fact that sentries are so gas heavy. I'm sorry but just because they're awesome doesn't mean they're imbalanced or really problematic. Of the posts on the thread, I feel like this is the best opinion. Though I do wonder at times about midlate game. It gives zerg an incentive to get ultras out to negate FF to some degree. Lategame ff is necessary and disgusting at the same time. It's necessary because otherwise you'll never see a gateway army deal with the horde. It's disgusting because it feels like the impetus is entirely on one player to win or lose the game and that momentum is kept by the FF player. Collosi deathballs you can conceive of ways to find a solution. ultra efficient forcefield armies... unless a way of baiting them or better eco hatch timings are developed it's going to be difficult. | ||
|
hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On March 19 2011 19:22 Jimmeh wrote: No one's talking about removing forcefields. We're talking about balancing them so that, as an opponent, you can actually micro against forcefields. Right now if a Protoss uses FFs right you literally cannot micro against them and that is, literally, game breaking. You can modify forcefields so that they're still effective but able to be negated. It's literally game breaking? Does your SC2 DVD snap in half when you get FFed? Do your game filee get corrupted? | ||
|
Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 20 2011 19:04 billy5000 wrote: I haven't seen the match the OP has brought up, but I did see boxer play in the TSL. Unfortunately, I didn't see the boxer that I knew I would see. There were no creative plays in almost the entire rounds, and it made me qq a bit..I miss the bw days. If you guys don't know what I'm talking about, it was a tvp matchup and both players played standard: Terran went bio ball w/medvacs+vikings; toss, gateway units/colo/phoenix. Honestly, I have to admit there was some micro, but it wasn't what I expected. I think the majority of the micro was Boxer individually destroying colossus with his vikings and a few storms and forcefields. That's it, and it really made me wonder why Boxer's still playing sc2. Consequently, I think that micro is really a small part of sc2. This is the reason why I believe Blizzard came up with forcefields and whatnot. But still, anyone with a keyboard and mice and do it. Personally, I don't think abilities will ever replace the role of micro. Oh blizzard, just give us back our stone-age commands and limited highlight selections. Maybe a few tweaks here and there. You're killing the competition for the pros out there.. Boxer is scared of TvP and his opponent was one of the most passive protosses ever. Don't read to much into it. Also, there was a guy above me who said that Terran can get ghosts, siege tanks with siege mode and Thors so they had no problem with force fields, but poor zergies HAD to get burrow and maybe burrow movement/OL drops. The hell, do you think burrow takes longer to get than siege tech or a thor? MC used 1k+ gas on sentries in that push. It's not a 4gate rush that comes 5 minutes in. It took him 8 minutes to get there. By that time I can get a cloaked banshee off one gas... He does that push often enough that zergs should know it's coming. Get your lings and roaches out on the field and prepare to flank, get an early burrow if you see more than 3 sentries and you're playing MC. It's like dying to a proxy void ray while spamming marauders and going on about IMBA. Jesus... | ||
|
Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
On March 20 2011 15:40 Skyze wrote: Thats one thing I noticed about July's play vs other zergs who never lose to 4gates.. No spine crawlers.. I dont think July realizes that these are not SC1 spines.. they are MUCH stronger. And if he would of made afew of them, he would of probably held off every attack except for the one where he was softened by DTs first. Seriously, the hardest thing in the world to fight in PvZ for me, is when the zerg gets spine crawlers. It basically forces you to get collosus, because stalker/sentry/zealots are so fragile that spines take them out so fast.. AND still have to deal with the lings/roach/hydra after that. What are you talking about ? I strictly remember july throwing down 2-3 spines at least on metalpolis, as soon as he realized Nexus was canceled (like....the second it was even possible to realize). | ||
|
Hypemeup
Sweden2783 Posts
On March 20 2011 21:12 Gotmog wrote: What are you talking about ? I strictly remember july throwing down 2-3 spines at least on metalpolis, as soon as he realized Nexus was canceled (like....the second it was even possible to realize). Yeah, he did that. Also I feel that SC1 sunkens where much more powerful then our Spine crawlers now days. | ||
|
DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On March 20 2011 13:14 Angra wrote: I was actually just about to edit my post and include speedlings in there too as a lesser form of the other 3. :p I definitely think they should tone down speedling movespeed but up their dps in other ways. The thing is, it's not even just punishing mistakes. It's punishing movement, prodding, and aggression at ALL outside of your protected natural. There's a huge difference between attacking right into someone's natural and getting punished for it, and walking around the middle of the map trying to find an opening, encountering the other army, and then not being able to retreat half of your army because they get trapped just for moving it out of your natural. So you think opponent's should be able to constantly prod and be aggressive without the defender being able to punish that? And yes, it is punishing mistakes. It encourages scouting a lot more. Tone down speedling speed? You realize speedlings literally don't work properly without surrounds for the most part. I'm sorry, but it just simply sounds like you want to take out a fundamentally important part of the game. | ||
|
tek_ger
Germany140 Posts
| ||
|
Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
On March 21 2011 00:35 tek_ger wrote: why didnt july put 1 spinecrawler above at the edge in the first game? it couldnt get targeted by toss Because you can just move your army a bit to the left, and still be able to forcefield the ramp. | ||
| ||
