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On March 19 2011 19:51 DusTerr wrote:@OP - FG is the only one of the abilities that actually nullifies micro (and blizzard is reducing the duration by half). FF and CS still allow you to move (micro) your units - just slower or with burrow/drop ships. Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:22 Jimmeh wrote:
No one's talking about removing forcefields. We're talking about balancing them so that, as an opponent, you can actually micro against forcefields. Right now if a Protoss uses FFs right you literally cannot micro against them and that is, literally, game breaking. You can modify forcefields so that they're still effective but able to be negated.
If I use medivacs to lift my units away from being trapped by FF is that not micro against FF? Also, FF CAN BE NEGATED by massive units.
You can't expect July to have Ultras when the timing attack hits, also Z's and T's massive units suck really hard against P.
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Just because something is hard to use, doesn't mean it's not imbalanced. Force fields have been abused since day one from beta however and we have seen quite a few builds to deal with them (e.g. quick burrow/tunneling claws or a focus on spine crawlers for defense).
Maybe there is a problem with force fields if used as well as MC does it but July didn't even try to counter them, so that series is of pretty much no consequence for that discussion.
As a Terran player it's not as bad but I am still annoyed by force fields and it's really not much fun playing against a good ff user, so I would welcome a change like force fields not being able to actively split and move around my forces by placing them right inside my army.
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If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
He knew perfectly about the Forcefields on the ramp, but still he tried to defend with only 2 Spine Crawlers and Roaches, and that was a huge mistake.
It's like a Protoss who's facing a Mass Mutalisk Player and tries to defend with BlinkStalkers only. Doesn't work 
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On March 19 2011 23:32 Binabik wrote:
If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
Having seen the game, what exactly could have July done to not "fail at scouting?" The gates were where they couldn't be spotted, the army back away from the ramp and that nexus was building for a long time.
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On March 19 2011 23:34 PBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:32 Binabik wrote:
If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
Having seen the game, what exactly could have July done to not "fail at scouting?" The gates were where they couldn't be spotted, the army back away from the ramp and that nexus was building for a long time.
He could have had a Overlord in the deadzone at MCs expansion, there is always a possiblity that a player might cancel their expansion and go for the kill. Against Zerg this can work very well when you think about how larva works in the game.
There is no reason why a player who early expands+drones and only has a few units should be able to beat a player who 1 bases+cuts probes AND manages to decieve his opponent should not win.
Then you factor in that MC is not a player who is known for his many macro oriented games, thus July should have been more suspicious of this guy.
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On March 19 2011 23:38 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:34 PBJ wrote:On March 19 2011 23:32 Binabik wrote:
If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
Having seen the game, what exactly could have July done to not "fail at scouting?" The gates were where they couldn't be spotted, the army back away from the ramp and that nexus was building for a long time. He could have had a Overlord in the deadzone at MCs expansion, there is always a possiblity that a player might cancel their expansion and go for the kill. Against Zerg this can work very well when you think about how larva works in the game.
Why would this have mattered at all? July knew that it was a fake before the nexus was cancelled as evidenced by the fact he stopped producing drones and started producing pure ling/roaches instead.
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On March 19 2011 23:16 NicolBolas wrote:Show nested quote +I myself get very frustrated as a Zerg, when toss slices my army in half and rapes me, HOWEVER there is not a single game after which I analyzed my replay and I could say: "holly shit, this is imba and impossible for me to beat". That's not what imbalanced means. Let's assume that skill is perfectly quantifiable. That is, you can assign a number to skill, and you can therefore have an objective basis to say that person A has greater, less, or equal skill to person B. A game is perfectly balanced if two players of equal skill play the game and they both win 50% of their games against each other. A game is perfectly balanced if a person of greater skill wins more games against a person of less skill. Given players of equal skill, if the side with FF wins more often than the side without FF, then the game is imbalanced. And considering how neutralizing FF can be against many abilities, it is very possible that dealing with FF-based strategies requires a lot more skill. Does that mean that there's nothing you can do? No. If you have more skill than your opponent, then perhaps you might go back to a 50:50 win ratio. But it's still imbalanced because you have to have more skill than your opponent does in order to achieve 50:50. I'm not saying that oGsMC and July are of equal skill. But there is an argument to be made that FF can neutralize a great deal of an enemy's skill very quickly and effectively.
I wasn't talking about balance, well it wasn't my intention, maybe the fact that English is not my first language mad it look like. I don't know shit about the game compared to those on the pro level. I was talking more about broad spectrum.
As far as "balance" goes by that I mean equilibrium of two things, You just cannot compare two different things with one parameter. They will never be equal. You need a lot of parameters, and even more, and I mean a lot more, events (games played in our case). World wide, not just BO5.
I may be wrong but what I am thinking is that if you cannot beat something don't call it imbalance at first just a counter, you cannot beat it this way. Like 150 energy infestor is a counter to a nice bunch of marines without medevacs. Call it imbalanced only when You take all the shit that is in game combine it with all the possible scenarios and then lose.
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OK, how about this solution: FF is now a channeling spell - it costs 50 energy to cast, meaning Sentry would be left with 150. Maintaining FF would drain 15 energy per second, allowing each Sentry to sustain one for 15 seconds (their current duration). By killing the Sentry you can make his FF disappear.
That way Sentries can't maintain FFs indefinitely, as they'll quickly run out of energy. Using FF will require good energy management, and microing against FF will now be possible (by sniping Sentries even during the battle; their casting range is just 3). Landing EMPs on Sentries results in cancelling FFs.
What do you think, guys?
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On March 19 2011 23:43 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:38 Tyree wrote:On March 19 2011 23:34 PBJ wrote:On March 19 2011 23:32 Binabik wrote:
If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
Having seen the game, what exactly could have July done to not "fail at scouting?" The gates were where they couldn't be spotted, the army back away from the ramp and that nexus was building for a long time. He could have had a Overlord in the deadzone at MCs expansion, there is always a possiblity that a player might cancel their expansion and go for the kill. Against Zerg this can work very well when you think about how larva works in the game. Why would this have mattered at all? July knew that it was a fake before the nexus was cancelled as evidenced by the fact he stopped producing drones and started producing pure ling/roaches instead.
I doubt he knew, had he known he would have made a few more Spines, defended the push and be ahead while MC would have to rebuild his expansion and be behind the entire game.
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On March 19 2011 18:48 lololol wrote:
Concussive shells from a default ability to a 50/50/60 upgrade.
Holy shit when was that a default ability? O.o Beta?
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On March 19 2011 23:47 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 23:38 Tyree wrote:On March 19 2011 23:34 PBJ wrote:On March 19 2011 23:32 Binabik wrote:
If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
Having seen the game, what exactly could have July done to not "fail at scouting?" The gates were where they couldn't be spotted, the army back away from the ramp and that nexus was building for a long time. He could have had a Overlord in the deadzone at MCs expansion, there is always a possiblity that a player might cancel their expansion and go for the kill. Against Zerg this can work very well when you think about how larva works in the game. Why would this have mattered at all? July knew that it was a fake before the nexus was cancelled as evidenced by the fact he stopped producing drones and started producing pure ling/roaches instead. I doubt he knew, had he known he would have made a few more Spines, defended the push and be ahead while MC would have to rebuild his expansion and be behind the entire game.
Watch the game again. Watch the production tab. Now shut up and stop talking shit.
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my solution, move the ghost's EMP and give it to raven and give the ghost an ability that destroys a forcefield and any touching it, and any touching them. its nice as it makes it harder for the toss to nullify micro apart with really good ff placement.
for zerg.....erm.... give brood lords an ability to like burrow from the air, smaching all force feilds in the way??
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On March 19 2011 23:34 PBJ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:32 Binabik wrote:
If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
Having seen the game, what exactly could have July done to not "fail at scouting?" The gates were where they couldn't be spotted, the army back away from the ramp and that nexus was building for a long time.
Well, one of the biggest problems zerg has is early game scouting. July really had to rely on blind luck to spot the gates.
Though the fact that MC's second unit was a stalker should have been a tell, MC wouldn't waste the minerals if he really wanted a FE. But that still relies on guesswork, so it's hard to blame july since he had no way of 100% knowing if a 4 gate was coming.
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On March 19 2011 23:50 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:47 Tyree wrote:On March 19 2011 23:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 23:38 Tyree wrote:On March 19 2011 23:34 PBJ wrote:On March 19 2011 23:32 Binabik wrote:
If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
Having seen the game, what exactly could have July done to not "fail at scouting?" The gates were where they couldn't be spotted, the army back away from the ramp and that nexus was building for a long time. He could have had a Overlord in the deadzone at MCs expansion, there is always a possiblity that a player might cancel their expansion and go for the kill. Against Zerg this can work very well when you think about how larva works in the game. Why would this have mattered at all? July knew that it was a fake before the nexus was cancelled as evidenced by the fact he stopped producing drones and started producing pure ling/roaches instead. I doubt he knew, had he known he would have made a few more Spines, defended the push and be ahead while MC would have to rebuild his expansion and be behind the entire game. Watch the game again. Watch the production tab. Now shut up and stop talking shit.
No Zerg player in the world believes 2 half done Spines and a few Roaches+Lings will stop a 1 base Protoss push, its common sense you need significant defenses to stop that.
And here is the real beauty: if you do manage to stop it, you will win, because July would have been so far ahead MC wouldnt be able to catch up to him.
And there is no reason to talk like that, however angry you are right now, you should calm down.
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Imo nerfing force fields isn't a good idea. They should instead give zerg some kinda counter. For example a spell that removes force fields. I know this is very bad example but something that zerg can do to counter without completely removing ff.
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On March 19 2011 23:01 Vardant wrote:
Or they could do the unthinkable and build a *gasp* Raven.
No shit. Nothing in this game is uncounterable. That's the point.
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On March 19 2011 23:52 Tyree wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:50 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 23:47 Tyree wrote:On March 19 2011 23:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 23:38 Tyree wrote:On March 19 2011 23:34 PBJ wrote:On March 19 2011 23:32 Binabik wrote:
If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
Having seen the game, what exactly could have July done to not "fail at scouting?" The gates were where they couldn't be spotted, the army back away from the ramp and that nexus was building for a long time. He could have had a Overlord in the deadzone at MCs expansion, there is always a possiblity that a player might cancel their expansion and go for the kill. Against Zerg this can work very well when you think about how larva works in the game. Why would this have mattered at all? July knew that it was a fake before the nexus was cancelled as evidenced by the fact he stopped producing drones and started producing pure ling/roaches instead. I doubt he knew, had he known he would have made a few more Spines, defended the push and be ahead while MC would have to rebuild his expansion and be behind the entire game. Watch the game again. Watch the production tab. Now shut up and stop talking shit. No Zerg player in the world believes 2 half done Spines and a few Roaches+Lings will stop a 1 base Protoss push, its common sense you need significant defenses to stop that. And here is the real beauty: if you do manage to stop it, you will win, because July would have been so far ahead MC wouldnt be able to catch up to him. And there is no reason to talk like that, however angry you are right now, you should calm down.
If you actually watch the game you will see that he had more than enough units to hold and the only reason he couldn't was due to being forcefielded on his ramp. The moment MC pushed out July built nothing but units. At all. What else was he supposed to do other than possibly building a couple more spine crawlers which he wouldn't have needed if he could actually get down the ramp?
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On March 19 2011 18:51 wonderwall wrote:
Forcefield requires impossible amounts of micro from one player to deny the other player the ability to micro. Forcefield is probably bringing more micro into the game just from the other player. It also requires the receiver of the forcefield to consider positioning and how he is going to engage much more. If there is one thing forcefield isn't doing its dumbing down the game.
Although forcefield does require micro, it is considerably less micro-intensive compared to Terran micro. I mean, all you have to do to make forcefields is simply press a button and click. Compared to the mm stutter step or marine splits or tank leap frogging or even multidrops, FF is nothing.
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On March 19 2011 23:56 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 23:52 Tyree wrote:On March 19 2011 23:50 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 23:47 Tyree wrote:On March 19 2011 23:43 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 23:38 Tyree wrote:On March 19 2011 23:34 PBJ wrote:On March 19 2011 23:32 Binabik wrote:
If July just built 2 more spine Crawlers instead of the 5 Roaches he built at his main base, he would've been able to defend easily. But there is a reason why he didn't to that:
He failed at scouting!
Having seen the game, what exactly could have July done to not "fail at scouting?" The gates were where they couldn't be spotted, the army back away from the ramp and that nexus was building for a long time. He could have had a Overlord in the deadzone at MCs expansion, there is always a possiblity that a player might cancel their expansion and go for the kill. Against Zerg this can work very well when you think about how larva works in the game. Why would this have mattered at all? July knew that it was a fake before the nexus was cancelled as evidenced by the fact he stopped producing drones and started producing pure ling/roaches instead. I doubt he knew, had he known he would have made a few more Spines, defended the push and be ahead while MC would have to rebuild his expansion and be behind the entire game. Watch the game again. Watch the production tab. Now shut up and stop talking shit. No Zerg player in the world believes 2 half done Spines and a few Roaches+Lings will stop a 1 base Protoss push, its common sense you need significant defenses to stop that. And here is the real beauty: if you do manage to stop it, you will win, because July would have been so far ahead MC wouldnt be able to catch up to him. And there is no reason to talk like that, however angry you are right now, you should calm down. If you actually watch the game you will see that he had more than enough units to hold and the only reason he couldn't was due to being forcefielded on his ramp. The moment MC pushed out July built nothing but units. At all. What else was he supposed to do other than possibly building a couple more spine crawlers which he wouldn't have needed if he could actually get down the ramp?
I have watched the game.
MC is not the first Protoss in SC2 history to forcefield another players ramp, it is something even Gold players do from time to time, a common "trick" to get enough time to kill their expansion. No reason July should not have taken this into account
If your opponent is the best Protoss in the world and he 1 bases you, then you absolutely need Spines to defend that, especially since they are great for fending off Gateway units.
And July knows this, the reason he did not make more Spines is because contrary what you say, July did not know about the cancelled Nexus. He was making Roaches and Lings because that is how he plays Zerg, he does not play like Idra.
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I only really feel that Zergs have a much harder time with forcefields than say Terran because they lack a lot of options to deal with it (Burrowed roaches...maybe Ovie drops...and Ultras?)
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EPT
