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Abilities that nullify micro - Good or bad? - Page 8

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Yuffie
Profile Joined June 2010
132 Posts
March 19 2011 12:57 GMT
#141
What about Ultralisks, Broodloards or Drops ?

Forcefield just stops the cheap tier 2 units that die to colossi anyway.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
March 19 2011 12:58 GMT
#142
On March 19 2011 21:51 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
It would be nice if there was a way out of concussive and forcefield.
I wouldn't be upset if FF had a slightly smaller radius (but still somehow blocked a ramp) and also if it had a shorter duration but only a tiny decrease. Less than 10% ideally

Cuntcussive shells should have a cooldown, be more expensive, take longer to research or come with less damage with the shot (a combination of these is fine)

I would love to see even more micro and specifically more per unit micro.
I also wouldn't have a major complaint with the queen being able to cast a spell on the forcefield to drop it, that feels a little evil and cheap as a tactic. Maybe spawn larvas goo dissolves it or something.

FWIW I play P, not T or Z

Nice language. And how can you make forcefields smaller without making them pointless?
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
H0i
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands484 Posts
March 19 2011 12:59 GMT
#143
On March 19 2011 21:57 Urbanspaceman wrote:
What about Ultralisks, Broodloards or Drops ?

Forcefield just stops the cheap tier 2 units that die to colossi anyway.

If you had watched the finals you'd seen that the attack comes to early for this.

Massive queens will make it impossible to lift them. I think queens should be able to be lifted.
Bactrian
Profile Joined December 2010
Australia176 Posts
March 19 2011 13:00 GMT
#144
I don't feel like any of these abilities really nullify micro.

As I'm sure other people have said, you can burrow and drop under/over forcefields, and spread units out to minimise fungals. And you can still micro units hit by concussive, it's just harder.
Senx
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Sweden5901 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 13:08:12
March 19 2011 13:02 GMT
#145
Very much agree, atleast on fungal, shells and forcefields, abilities that actually remove gameplay and removes micro from the opponent when used - you can't actually do anything once it happens -- you're just watching yourself get detroyed without you being able to DO anything.

And that to me, is poor game design.

In SC:BW there was queen slow, and that was actually a spell so thats a bit more fair as you don't run around with 20 queens like 20 sentries or 20 marauders - because its a high tech niche unit.

Arbiters had crystalize that made units freeze BUT cannot be attacked - this is good design, make everything good have a drawback. The unit is expensive and high tech so the impact of the spell is far less than a early game unit like the marauder and sentry.
"trash micro but win - its marine" MC commentary during HSC 4
Cabinet Sanchez
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia1097 Posts
March 19 2011 13:04 GMT
#146
On March 19 2011 21:58 Grumbels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 21:51 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
It would be nice if there was a way out of concussive and forcefield.
I wouldn't be upset if FF had a slightly smaller radius (but still somehow blocked a ramp) and also if it had a shorter duration but only a tiny decrease. Less than 10% ideally

Cuntcussive shells should have a cooldown, be more expensive, take longer to research or come with less damage with the shot (a combination of these is fine)

I would love to see even more micro and specifically more per unit micro.
I also wouldn't have a major complaint with the queen being able to cast a spell on the forcefield to drop it, that feels a little evil and cheap as a tactic. Maybe spawn larvas goo dissolves it or something.

FWIW I play P, not T or Z

Nice language. And how can you make forcefields smaller without making them pointless?


Oh sorry that was a complete mistake, you have to believe me, all Z and P players love coming up against those shells, honest! My sincerest apologies.
Cabinet Sanchez
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia1097 Posts
March 19 2011 13:06 GMT
#147
On March 19 2011 22:02 Senx wrote:
Very much agree, atleast on fungal, shells and forcefields, abilities that actually remove gameplay and removes micro from the opponent when used - you can't actually do anything once it happens -- you're just watching yourself get detroyed without you being able to DO anything.

And that to me, is poor game design.



Agreed and I know the rocks will start getting thrown but that's why I loved Warcraft 3 having so many ways to nullify a spell. Collapsing FF for example is far too difficult for most races.
Synk
Profile Joined April 2010
United States297 Posts
March 19 2011 13:08 GMT
#148
You guys do realize that only roaches can burrow move and roaches lose pretty badly to large numbers of stalkers ( especially with blink ). Also burrow moving is even worse than doing nothing at all if he has an obs over his army as your roach takes about 5 sec to move completely under a FF and will die almost every time before it completes the movement. More over with the number of sentry's MC had if you did burrow move under his FF he could just FF you again delaying you another 5 sec. Also theres is literally no spot on any map where MC couldn't have completely FF'd the zerg army away from his army, they could have been fighting in just a giant open field and MC still could have FF'd the zerg army into pieces, he just had that many sentrys. I mean did no-one else see him split the middle of Shakuras in half, and then drop even more FF's right after. Once you have that many sentrys you can just FF as much as your finger can hit the F key it seems.
Don't argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Toadvine
Profile Joined November 2010
Poland2234 Posts
March 19 2011 13:08 GMT
#149
I'd also like to add, that abilities like these don't just nullify micro, they also make retreating a lot harder. This is one of the reasons why we see people move their armies in huge balls, instead of having skirmishes all around the map. Splitting off a part of your army to harass/pressure an outlying expo is really risky when they can just get FFed/slowed/fungaled and owned by a larger amy without being able to withdraw.

It's also why most battles are so one-sided. Normally, the weaker side could engage, stall for a bit, and then retreat, but it just too costly in SC2.
"There are always some Eskimos ready to instruct the Congolese on how to cope with heat waves." - S.J.Lec
Wochtulka
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic66 Posts
March 19 2011 13:10 GMT
#150
I think good change to forcefields would either be good maps or making FF channeling
sleepyguy
Profile Joined March 2011
United States272 Posts
March 19 2011 13:10 GMT
#151
Just throwing these out there:

1. What if FF duration was lowered from 15 to 10 seconds? 15 seconds seems way too long.

orand

2. Have FF become a channeled ability that drains energy (for example 15 energy per second) and the sentry can't attack while channeling

or/and

3. Make FF an aoe ability that surronds said sentry at it's current position? Sort of like a static field that makes the sentry immune to damage, but also takes the sentry out of the battle for the duration? This way they are still viable defensively as the sentry must be in position, say ramp, to turn on or cast it's FF. Offensively the sentry would be need to get in position before opponents notice and opponents would have to snipe or retreat accordingly, making it more of a micro race?

Very new to RTS and sc2 in general, would love some feedback
WE FOKKEN LOST BOYS
Neivler
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Norway911 Posts
March 19 2011 13:13 GMT
#152
I have been thinking about writing about this and other features that make the game worse than it could be.

Many of the new features in the game, just has not been through thoroughly enough.
I pwn noobs
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
March 19 2011 13:19 GMT
#153
Finally, Dommk proved Jimmeh wrong. His posts were "der". Of course you die if you can't respond to the strategy. The guy who talked about the cloaked banshees brought up that point. No amount of skill can save you if you fail hard.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
mumming
Profile Joined June 2010
Faroe Islands256 Posts
March 19 2011 13:20 GMT
#154
Forcefields are one of the things that destroy the game. When skill ceiling is reached at this state of the game, zerg won't be able to touch protoss... soooo many microable units for protoss.

zealots so great when they come up close. forcefields allow that
sentry's... u know it
HT's best spell unit in the game after sentry and work so well with sentry's and kills all other spell casters if microed
archons just so strong + a splash unit
blinkstalkers annihilate drops + very microable
dt's your dead without spotters
immortals annihilate zergs only unit that can take down forcefields
collosi such a long rance splash unit
warp in, yeah make your units anywhere
phoenix very microable and totally own zergs most microable unit the hydralisk

+ all these units have very great synergy

zerg

infestors stop a chunk for 8 secs soon to be reduces to 8, veeery fragile
zerglings in late game only usefull for fast reinforcing and counterattacking can do nothing behind a forcefield
roach short range so almost useless behind ff, but can burrow under forcefields, but most of the time theyre just too slow underground to make it viable.
hydra, good on creep but nullified by splash and forcefields
ultra easily killed with microing any unit but collosi and sentry
mutalisk zergs most microable unit but can only take out an army supported my less microable units
curropters...
broodlords hard to get to good for a minute but easily killed by blink/air very slow
banelings decent for drops in this matchup

anyone up for a microwar?
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
March 19 2011 13:25 GMT
#155
On March 19 2011 22:20 mumming wrote:
Forcefields are one of the things that destroy the game. When skill ceiling is reached at this state of the game, zerg won't be able to touch protoss... soooo many microable units for protoss.

zealots so great when they come up close. forcefields allow that
sentry's... u know it
HT's best spell unit in the game after sentry and work so well with sentry's and kills all other spell casters if microed
archons just so strong + a splash unit
blinkstalkers annihilate drops + very microable
dt's your dead without spotters
immortals annihilate zergs only unit that can take down forcefields
collosi such a long rance splash unit
warp in, yeah make your units anywhere
phoenix very microable and totally own zergs most microable unit the hydralisk

+ all these units have very great synergy

zerg

infestors stop a chunk for 8 secs soon to be reduces to 8, veeery fragile
zerglings in late game only usefull for fast reinforcing and counterattacking can do nothing behind a forcefield
roach short range so almost useless behind ff, but can burrow under forcefields, but most of the time theyre just too slow underground to make it viable.
hydra, good on creep but nullified by splash and forcefields
ultra easily killed with microing any unit but collosi and sentry
mutalisk zergs most microable unit but can only take out an army supported my less microable units
curropters...
broodlords hard to get to good for a minute but easily killed by blink/air very slow
banelings decent for drops in this matchup

anyone up for a microwar?


You just made protoss units sound like a boss while making zerg units look like crap.
a) That's not fair.
b) You must QQ a lot.

Put zealots/stalkers together. Now put that against a ~40 food bio ball. Great synergy my ass.

Even with sentries, you can barely survive. Why? Sentries cost 100 gas. I HOPE it does something.

Dt's you're dead without spotters. Cloaked banshees you're dead without spotters. HERP DERP.
Ghosts can EMP and make toss units useless and casters useless just as well as HT's can, so don't talk about that.

I bet the rest of your post is just garbage, so I won't continue to prove you wrong.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
jhNz
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
Germany2762 Posts
March 19 2011 13:28 GMT
#156
i think it requires a lot of skill to use forcefields properly without blocking your own units away from the enemy. it's not as easy as it may look when some pros do it.

but i already thought about making the ffs a bit smaller. don't know how that would work out though.
http://twitter.com/jhNz
iChau
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1210 Posts
March 19 2011 13:29 GMT
#157
On March 19 2011 22:28 jhNz wrote:
i think it requires a lot of skill to use forcefields properly without blocking your own units away from the enemy. it's not as easy as it may look when some pros do it.

but i already thought about making the ffs a bit smaller. don't know how that would work out though.


That would be really different because you then have to use 2 forcefields per small ramp (a couple of hexes makes a different), and all-ins would be that much more powerful. Unlike other races, protoss can't stop all-ins with pure "fighting" (cough) units, so that's why we rely on sentries and the versatile cannon. Well, unless we're on 2 bases with a lot of upgrades.
us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/1688911/1/SaniShahin/ | http://teamenvy.net/
decaf
Profile Joined October 2010
Austria1797 Posts
March 19 2011 13:31 GMT
#158
On March 19 2011 22:28 jhNz wrote:
i think it requires a lot of skill to use forcefields properly without blocking your own units away from the enemy. it's not as easy as it may look when some pros do it.

but i already thought about making the ffs a bit smaller. don't know how that would work out though.

You wouldn't be possible to FF the ramp anymore.
mumming
Profile Joined June 2010
Faroe Islands256 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 13:35:38
March 19 2011 13:31 GMT
#159
I know i made zerg look silly.. but we are talking lategame here

im both zerg and protoss yeah if you get a chunk of zerg food close on to the protoss you will prolly win, but with enough skill from the protoss' side, that shouldnt happen

edit: we are talking zerg vs protoss and we are talking about microability + ht's have more range than ghost and feedback is instant.
ChaseR
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Norway1004 Posts
March 19 2011 13:36 GMT
#160
With that logic you might as well remove all spells and abilities in the game and have a completely bland and empty game...

In BW abilities is what made the game dynamic, Dark Archon's vs Z where insane as maelstrom could stun entire armies and Archon splash + storm could then clean up everything without the opposing player being able to do diddly squat.
Life is not Fucking Fair and Society is not Fucking Logical - "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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