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On March 19 2011 19:39 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:35 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 19:30 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:24 Apolo wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting. So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce. Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it. But, dude, don't you see? It was only MC's brilliant and original strategy that caused July to not have units at the bottom of his ramp to defend. Ignoring the fact that it's only because of FF that MC won that game, ignoring the fact that no other race would have been able to do that since it relied on denying reinforcements with FF to work, ignoring the fact that July would have held it since he had enough units without forcefields.... MC won because he's a genius not because his race has a T1 ability that can deny reinforcements from your own main while similtaneously having the ability to negate any rush distance with warp gates. I'm sorry, but no. At that point in the game they're both still on similar economy, so it is virtually impossible for July to have amassed an army that would have been able to stop MC's army + reinforcements without any reinforcements.
haha, yeah, he was just trolling^^
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On March 19 2011 19:46 krok(obs) wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:39 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:35 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 19:30 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:24 Apolo wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting. So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce. Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it. But, dude, don't you see? It was only MC's brilliant and original strategy that caused July to not have units at the bottom of his ramp to defend. Ignoring the fact that it's only because of FF that MC won that game, ignoring the fact that no other race would have been able to do that since it relied on denying reinforcements with FF to work, ignoring the fact that July would have held it since he had enough units without forcefields.... MC won because he's a genius not because his race has a T1 ability that can deny reinforcements from your own main while similtaneously having the ability to negate any rush distance with warp gates. I'm sorry, but no. At that point in the game they're both still on similar economy, so it is virtually impossible for July to have amassed an army that would have been able to stop MC's army + reinforcements without any reinforcements. haha, yeah, he was just trolling^^
Yeah, I quoted the wrong person, sigh.
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On March 19 2011 19:45 Azarkon wrote:
I really don't think July was the better player in that series. In any case he hasn't proven it (and no, I will not accept "but July was a legend in BW you noob"). If you want to discuss the game I suggest going to the actual thread, but Ribbon made a great argument for why JulyZerg failed strategically and I much agree: he prepared for a strategy that he didn't actually receive, and his builds and timings betrayed it.
This. It's like people are assuming that MC just made 5 Sentries and walked across the map. MC had an extra Gateway, cut probes, and canceled a Nexus at the very last second after numerous Zergling scouts. You really can't disregard that, it was a brilliant all-in. You can't blame July for taking the bait; pretty much any other player (even MC himself) would've fallen for it (except Nestea, he cheats at that stuff).
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On March 19 2011 19:30 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:24 Apolo wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting. So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce. Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it.
Positioning is a pretty important part of SC2.
You can just as easily lose your entire army because you got caught in a choke with siege tanks, instead of already having your army outside the choke in a nice arch.
Forcefields are strong, just like cloaked banshees are strong, and roaches (production ability) and mutas (harass ability) are strong.
When I play vs. T, the #1 thing I get worried about is cloaked banshees. Do I think they're OP? No. I think if I don't respond properly I'll lose. The same goes for roaches and mutas and forcefields and colossi.
They're simply strong things that each race can pull out and that you have to handle properly. The key to forcefields is your positioning.
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@OP - FG is the only one of the abilities that actually nullifies micro (and blizzard is reducing the duration by half). FF and CS still allow you to move (micro) your units - just slower or with burrow/drop ships.
On March 19 2011 19:22 Jimmeh wrote:
No one's talking about removing forcefields. We're talking about balancing them so that, as an opponent, you can actually micro against forcefields. Right now if a Protoss uses FFs right you literally cannot micro against them and that is, literally, game breaking. You can modify forcefields so that they're still effective but able to be negated.
If I use medivacs to lift my units away from being trapped by FF is that not micro against FF? Also, FF CAN BE NEGATED by massive units.
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On March 19 2011 19:47 gdalam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:45 Azarkon wrote:
I really don't think July was the better player in that series. In any case he hasn't proven it (and no, I will not accept "but July was a legend in BW you noob"). If you want to discuss the game I suggest going to the actual thread, but Ribbon made a great argument for why JulyZerg failed strategically and I much agree: he prepared for a strategy that he didn't actually receive, and his builds and timings betrayed it. This. It's like people are assuming that MC just made 5 Sentries and walked across the map. MC had an extra Gateway, cut probes, and canceled a Nexus at the very last second after numerous Zergling scouts. You really can't disregard that, it was a brilliant all-in. You can't blame July for taking the bait; pretty much any other player (even MC himself) would've fallen for it (except Nestea, he cheats at that stuff).
Indeed, too bad some people here are incapable of seeing it. By the time July realized it, it was over. MC pulled it off brilliantly though, he had that thing planned out down to the very last second Nexus cancel. He didn't even miss a warp gate timing (he was warping in units inside his main).
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On March 19 2011 19:35 Avanar1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:14 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. He got outraced. You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time. The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter. it obviously wasnt the perfect time then and to all the ppl saying give it health...no because toss need FF to survive from stim pushes how r u going to hold off a stim push wen terran can kill ur FF?
Doesn't this say more about Protoss being a broken race than anything else?
If I use medivacs to lift my units away from being trapped by FF is that not micro against FF? Also, FF CAN BE NEGATED by massive units.
This is a stupid argument. In a mid/late game situation I completely agree with you. But in the early game there is literally no way to micro against decent forcefields.
Game 1 of July vs MC. Are you seriously suggesting that forcefields are okay because all July needed to do was get one of the following:
1) Roach burrow
2) Overlord drop
3) Ultralisks
?
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I would add that on larger map than Meta July's spine crawlers would be finished and he had more time to get more units out and down the ramp. Maybe also flank some units so he could attack from 2 sides
Without warp and ff protoss t1 units are just too weak
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I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change.
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I don't play sc2, and thus am not aware of the exact timing windows, but can't Zerg players use Mutas to snipe Sentries the same way BW Zergs tend to get a group of Mutas to snipe HTs?
I know Sentries come earlier in tech, but is it possible to get enough Mutas to be able to one-shot them one by one (similar to picking off Medics vs. Terran in BW too) without flat-out dying to something else? Mutas seem like a decent unit ZvP wise to me (e.g. to exert map control), so their use wouldn't be limited to just countering Sentries.
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On March 19 2011 19:47 gdalam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:45 Azarkon wrote:
I really don't think July was the better player in that series. In any case he hasn't proven it (and no, I will not accept "but July was a legend in BW you noob"). If you want to discuss the game I suggest going to the actual thread, but Ribbon made a great argument for why JulyZerg failed strategically and I much agree: he prepared for a strategy that he didn't actually receive, and his builds and timings betrayed it. This. It's like people are assuming that MC just made 5 Sentries and walked across the map. MC had an extra Gateway, cut probes, and canceled a Nexus at the very last second after numerous Zergling scouts. You really can't disregard that, it was a brilliant all-in. You can't blame July for taking the bait; pretty much any other player (even MC himself) would've fallen for it (except Nestea, he cheats at that stuff).
I'm just whining that once an offensive ramp forcefield is placed, it's game over. I mean, isn't it a little suspect that one race can completely block off reinforcements meanwhile bridging any terrain distance to instantly get their reinforcements into the battle? There are ways around it before it happens, but damn it's like threading a needle.
Edit: Read around, and I'm really liking giving the Queen the ability to break forcefields somehow. Food for thought.
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On March 19 2011 19:52 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't play sc2, and thus am not aware of the exact timing windows, but can't Zerg players use Mutas to snipe Sentries the same way BW Zergs tend to get a group of Mutas to snipe HTs?
I know Sentries come earlier in tech, but is it possible to get enough Mutas to be able to one-shot them one by one (similar to picking off Medics vs. Terran in BW too) without flat-out dying to something else? Mutas seem like a decent unit ZvP wise to me (e.g. to exert map control), so their use wouldn't be limited to just countering Sentries.
no, the push hits too early for mutas. Even if you rush mutas they are too weak in straight up fights.
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I actually don't think July's response to the massive amount of Sentries was the correct one. I would've gone Burrow Roaches + Banes.
Would've been a whole different outcome then IMO.
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On March 19 2011 19:35 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:30 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:24 Apolo wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting. So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce. Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it. But, dude, don't you see? It was only MC's brilliant and original strategy that caused July to not have units at the bottom of his ramp to defend. Ignoring the fact that it's only because of FF that MC won that game, ignoring the fact that no other race would have been able to do that since it relied on denying reinforcements with FF to work, ignoring the fact that July would have held it since he had enough units without forcefields.... MC won because he's a genius not because his race has a T1 ability that can deny reinforcements from your own main while similtaneously having the ability to negate any rush distance with warp gates.
And Terran has T1 units that only need one upgrade and roll over Protoss like they are nothing. I remember that QQ by Protoss players. Now Protoss found a way to handle bio, now FF are too imba. I don't like the FF mechanic either and yeah MC's style looked very abusive, to say the least, that one might think this dominance was a sign of imbalance.
On the other hand July beat anypro in the semi finals. So if Protoss is that rediculously strong, why didn't anypro just roll over July like MC did?
I don't deny that FFs are very strong, maybe there are too strong and yeah, to me Zerg seems kinda weak in some cases.
But, dude, your post isn't that constructive, to be honest.
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Just an idea I had. If queens could break force fields it would stop the early game rush / force field ramp. Queens are slow off creep so it would be hard to use this offensively early and would not change the pvt matchup. Also it might give a unique role to a zerg unit early game.
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On March 19 2011 19:51 mathemagician1986 wrote:
I don't get how people just say "FFs are part of the game, deal with it".
If a protoss attacks a zerg early, they have near equal economy, so they should have near equal armies aswell (if that's not the case either the game has fundamental flaws, or one of the players sucked). So, protoss attacks, constantly forcefields the ramp, cutting the zergs production in half, while having full production and no attacker's disadvantage due to warp gates. You see the problem? Protoss can easily handle an about evenly large zerg army, and as he's getting twice the reinforcements nearly instantly he'll easily crush the zerg armies one after another.
Queens should be able to break forcefields. It has no offensive implications, gives the matchup another micro mechanic and still punishes the zerg, as his production will suffer if he loses a queen while destroying FFs. I don't think it's an unfair change.
But MC didn't have equal economy, he stopped making probes and completely faked july out. He was warping in units inside his base, he made the entire thing look like a regular 3 gate expand and July reacted as if it were a 3gate expand, when he realized it was over.
This is like Protoss forge fast expanding then seing a hatchery going down at the Zergs natural, but the Zerg cancles it after the scouting probe dies then proceeds to 1base quick Nydus/Roach all-in. In that situation the Nydus all-in will come out much faster than he would ever expect it and if he waits until the Nydus worm going down in his base to react, then he losses the game.
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On March 19 2011 19:52 maybenexttime wrote:
I don't play sc2, and thus am not aware of the exact timing windows, but can't Zerg players use Mutas to snipe Sentries the same way BW Zergs tend to get a group of Mutas to snipe HTs?
I know Sentries come earlier in tech, but is it possible to get enough Mutas to be able to one-shot them one by one (similar to picking off Medics vs. Terran in BW too) without flat-out dying to something else? Mutas seem like a decent unit ZvP wise to me (e.g. to exert map control), so their use wouldn't be limited to just countering Sentries.
Definitely not possible.
The talk of FF being OP is a bit silly though. It's really not a problem like people are making it out to be.
In the last game, July seriously snarfed it up when he attacked with hydras and roaches off creep. It's like he was completely oblivious to the fact that MC had a bunch of sentries right there ready to FF. A total mistake on July's part.
Mistakes get punished, deal with it.
On March 19 2011 19:55 Artisan wrote:
Just an idea I had. If queens could break force fields it would stop the early game rush / force field ramp. Queens are slow off creep so it would be hard to use this offensively early and would not change the pvt matchup. Also it might give a unique role to a zerg unit early game.
This would make it completely impossible to do an early push against Z as P. I find it funny that people don't understand how necessary FF is for a gateway army to be effective at all vs. anything T or Z has.
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On March 19 2011 19:51 Dommk wrote:
Indeed, too bad some people here are incapable of seeing it. By the time July realized it, it was over. MC pulled it off brilliantly though, he had that thing planned out down to the very last second Nexus cancel. He didn't even miss a warp gate timing (he was warping in units inside his main).
he even hid the units when that zergling scouts could have seen them
July could have smelled the signs, when he saw very few units during the expand.
A scouting overlord could have given him that information, but he didn't do that....
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On March 19 2011 19:52 seiferoth10 wrote:I'm just whining that once an offensive ramp forcefield is placed, it's game over. I mean, isn't it a little suspect that one race can completely block off reinforcements meanwhile bridging any terrain distance to instantly get their reinforcements into the battle? There are ways around it before it happens, but damn it's like threading a needle.
If you want to talk about threading a needle then closely follow MC's build when the VODs come up. How many times do you see a Protoss do a 2-gas Sentry-based 4-Gate? If a good Zerg player knows a 4-Gate is coming, they will hold it. July didn't know it was coming until it was too late, which no one can blame him for.
Also keep in mind that this was on Metalopolis, one of the older GSL maps (but still great). The newer GSL maps are obviously more open, which weakens the effectiveness and ease-of-use of forcefields.
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What's wrong with lots and lots of spine crawlers, either? Seems like 8 or 10 spines would have held that easily.
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EPT
