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On March 19 2011 19:12 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. July's response was perfectly fine. It was just that due to the nature of eggs having to be at a hatchery, he couldn't reinforce at all due to forcefields. Meanwhile, MC easily reinforced due to do the nature of warpgate being able to warp in at any pylon. Had July not been blocked, I dare say he would have been able to hold that off. They approached the engagement with similar armies. They both reinforced, but July's were blocked.
July's response was perfectly fine... if forcefields didn't exist. Otherwise, why do you not see protosses doing nothing but 4 gate fake? If perfect responses lead to a loss, then you've got a completely dominant strategy there.
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On March 19 2011 19:22 Iamyournoob wrote:
The problem lies deeper with FF. FF is so strong, as is warpgate-tech, that gateway units are in a head to head fight cost for cost worse than their terran and zerg counterparts. Zealots and Stalkers are balanced around FF and Warpgate, resulting in them being shitty. Furthermore Protoss thus needs these super-lol units like colossi and HTs.
This pretty much sums it up. Furthermore, Sentries do rather pitiful damage for their cost, meaning that their army is even weaker as far as damage output is concerned. Forcefields are the only way for a Protoss to survive the early game, and as of now no one except for MC has the skill with forcefields to straight out win without teching past Blink. Placing "decent" forcefields is by no means difficult; doing what MC does and expertly slicing up an army is absurdly hard (go watch the game that July wins where MC has nothing but Sentries vs. Hydras and try to do that yourself).
Essentially, it's all a part of the current metagame. For the past 6 months TvP consisted of Terrans stimming and A-moving. It took a very long time for Protoss to learn how to deal with the Bioball. Now MC (arguably the best player in the world) has changed the metagame, and people need and will learn to adjust their strategy and gameplay. The game's not even a year old, give it some time. Forcefield has been there since beta, and this is the first match where we've seen someone get spanked so hard.
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On March 19 2011 19:24 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting.
So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce.
Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it.
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It's getting pretty tiresome seeing so many people talk about how easy correct forcefield placement is. If you are saying that you obviously don't play protoss. If forcefields were so imba EVERY protoss would be dominating like this. People call for nerfs and balance way too fast. Atleast give the game a chance to balance itself out first (players' strategy/skill evolving). Everyone crying imba over everything and begging blizzard for change is going to end up giving us a crappier game than what we already have.
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I agree with your notion OP.
If an aggressive Protoss can cut a zergs production in half, simply by forcefielding the ramp something is wrong. Warpgates negates the agressors disadvantage (hardly no travelling time) and forcefields negate the defenders advantage (being able to reinforce faster).
I agree that Protoss need forcefields, otherwise they have no chance, so I suggest that queens should be able to break forcefields. I think this would allow Zerg to fight on even grounds. Simply making queens massiv would have issues with graviton beam, but I'm sure blizzard could figure something out.
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storm requires no skill
forcefields require no skill
colossus requires no skill?
what next? chronoboost requires no skill?
i guess anything requires no skill if you lose to it.
This QQ gets pretty overhelming these days
I see Game one, and July got outplayed, faked an expansion, Zerg got to greedy seeing this and got punished for it.
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Honestly I think the best change Blizzard could make regarding forcefields would be to just make queens massive.
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On March 19 2011 19:30 seiferoth10 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:24 Apolo wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting. So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce. Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it.
But, dude, don't you see? It was only MC's brilliant and original strategy that caused July to not have units at the bottom of his ramp to defend.
Ignoring the fact that it's only because of FF that MC won that game, ignoring the fact that no other race would have been able to do that since it relied on denying reinforcements with FF to work, ignoring the fact that July would have held it since he had enough units without forcefields.... MC won because he's a genius not because his race has a T1 ability that can deny reinforcements from your own main while similtaneously having the ability to negate any rush distance with warp gates.
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On March 19 2011 19:30 seiferoth10 wrote:So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce.
Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it.
Had MC not faked an expansion and just blatantly 4-gated July would've had the units already ready and would've easily held. You can't completely ignore the fact that MC perfectly faked the bread-and-butter build of PvZ like no one's seen before.
And if you're complaining solely about forcefield, then split your army up. Roach/Ling is a very mobile army, which is a huge advantage that Zerg has over Protoss (hence why they need Warpgates). Attack the front and flank from the rear or side. Sure, the Protoss might have enough Sentries to completely surround himself, but it'll make the Sentries run out of energy so your ramp won't be blocked.
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On March 19 2011 19:14 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. He got outraced. You can be all fanyboy you want about MC's AMAZING STRATEGY but, at the end of the day, if Terran or Zerg tried to do some sort of shenanigans like that then July would have still been able to defend because he would have had units in time. The only reason July couldn't defend is not because he didn't have the right amount of units, not because he played bad, not because MC played well, not because July over droned or any other reasons that involved "skill". The only reason July lost is because he literally couldn't get down the ramp to defend. July made units at the perfect time; they came out exactly as the attack actually started. However, because of forcefields, it didn't matter.
it obviously wasnt the perfect time then
and to all the ppl saying give it health...no because toss need FF to survive from stim pushes how r u going to hold off a stim push wen terran can kill ur FF?
also if u say well give them enough health to not be able to be killed while fighting without dying at the same time how is it going to change anything? it will only make FFs better, making it a piece of terrain and a meat shield
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ive always found forcefields to be almost ridiculously strong. if you think about it, the ability to influence the terrain to your advantage is really strong, especially against zerg opponents who rely on
using the terrain against their opoonents, namely wide open spaces to flank.
i just sometimes get the impression however that protoss players really need those force fields,otherwise theyd be swamped in a ton of roaches or against terran opponents be utterly crushed in the early game by marauders. then again zerg players face similar issues and have to deal with them without the use of anything like a force field.
so in one way they seem like theyre a necessity for toss players but in other cases they seem ridiculously overpowered, such as forcefielding a zerg players ramp forever to not allow reinforcements to take part in the battle, or forcefielding a terrans ramp to keep him in there throughout most of the early game. they are also very effective throughout the entire game ( well until ultras show up) with 130 toss armies being able to defeat maxed zerg armies just by splitting them up and exploiting the already somewhat narrow maps and abundance of choke points by altering the terrain even more in their favour. however against terran bio it seems to me theyre somewhat of a necessity again or their zealots will be kited into oblivion, at least until charge comes out and colossi make their way onto the battlefield.
forcefields really seem like a bad idea to me and ive always wondered about the implementation of them and why blizzard would think theyre necessary. the general consensus seems to agree with me, well that being people cdomplaining about it^^
in any case i think their duration is a little too long. my idea about forcefields was also that they shouldnt be able to be cast ON units, meaning that you cannot cast them on spaces already occupied by other units. then again this would make it really hard for toss players to cast them effectively but it would be possible to prevent endless forcefielding of your ramp and your army being cut in two all the time.
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There's nothing lamer in SC2 than perma forcefielding a ramp, particularly in the early game. It's incredibly effective (especially against Zerg), requires zero skill on a pro level and is completely boring. Something needs to be done.
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zerg could research tunneling claws for their roaches and escape from the forcefields. zergs mostly massing roaches, terran can load his army in his dropship and can also escape
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Just watched kawaiirice lose a game because a protoss dropped an ezmode forcefield on his ramp. I think map design is going to be important in stopping this. I think we need at least 2ff wide ramps (even the terminus style with rocks is cool) to really balance the FF, rather than altering it.
But don't get me started on warp gates. negating rush distance is unbelievably stupid. There's nothing a protoss can do that's genuinely risky at the moment.
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On March 19 2011 19:35 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2011 19:30 seiferoth10 wrote:On March 19 2011 19:24 Apolo wrote:On March 19 2011 19:09 Barca wrote:On March 19 2011 19:00 Jimmeh wrote:On March 19 2011 18:58 Teivospy wrote:
in the game julyzerg won, i was thinking it would have been great if he microed the trapped hydras and dropped them behind the FF's
which leads me to think that you guys should just use drop or burrow micro to save your units instead of hoping for blizzard to fix things.
on one hand people say they can't wait for SC2 to evolve, but it seems like that only means they want patches to buff their race :| In game one how is July, or any other Zerg in the same situation, supposed to use drop or burrow micro? He literally couldn't get down the ramp due to forcefields, in a situation where forcefields definetely do not require micro. The only reason Force Fielding the ramp was so effective was because July's response was late. Why was his response so late? MC faked an expansion and canceled it at the last second. This cause July to drone up too hard.. Sure, those FF were damn good, but the scenario leading up to them is much more important. Imagine July had properly scouted a 4 gate and not relied to "signs", he would have already had his army down the ramp since he wouldn't have made that round of drones. He got outplayed. Yup. Funny to see people atribute a win / loss to a in game ability but they forget all the rest that lead up to it. It's like MC getting carriers / voids, July doing nothing, and then at the end losing to them. I come here and bitch about how OP voids and carriers are. Kinda makes you wonder the leagues of the players that are commenting. So what you're saying is that July has to have 100 food worth of army already down the ramp when MC arrives? MC rolled up with ~50 food, then forcefielded for a while and reinforced with more army, while it was impossible for July to reinforce. Do people not understand that the forcefields made it impossible for July to reinforce? Had he had the ability to reinforce he would have held it. But, dude, don't you see? It was only MC's brilliant and original strategy that caused July to not have units at the bottom of his ramp to defend. Ignoring the fact that it's only because of FF that MC won that game, ignoring the fact that no other race would have been able to do that since it relied on denying reinforcements with FF to work, ignoring the fact that July would have held it since he had enough units without forcefields.... MC won because he's a genius not because his race has a T1 ability that can deny reinforcements from your own main while similtaneously having the ability to negate any rush distance with warp gates.
I'm sorry, but no. At that point in the game they're both still on similar economy, so it is virtually impossible for July to have amassed an army that would have been able to stop MC's army + reinforcements without any reinforcements.
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I only managed to watch the first game (bday party with the only females present being jailbait, FML), but in my opinion, forcefields make for a less entertaining game. When the protoss players has a ton of sentries, you know that the ball is in HIS court. It is up to the toss to win or lose the battle. Its just not as exciting as when the outcome rests on the actions of both players
When the protoss has only one or 2 sentries, and so can only get a few forcefields off, it just seems more impressive/entertaining when they get the clutch forcefield.
Then again, I was rooting for July, so I guess I'm biased.
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This is hilarious. Force fielding ramps has been in the game since the start of Beta.... It is apart of the game and you have to play around it, how long has it been, how many tournaments has it been used and people didn't call it imbalanced?
This is quite abusrd.
There is no comparison with other races because other races don't have this ability, but it is no different. The lead up is more important than the engagement. As I said before, this is like Zerg faking a macro game but end up all-in-ing the protoss, but the Protoss just doesn't have the required amount of things ready to stop it, it is too late then, you can't look for solutions to get out of that WHEN the fight happens, you had to have prepared for that before it got to that point
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July just got owned by blizzard, the better player lost and there was nothing he could do about it. To bad the great game has to be ruined by little things like forcefields, fungal, concussive(not the worst thing tbh)
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On March 19 2011 19:39 seiferoth10 wrote:
I'm sorry, but no. At that point in the game they're both still on similar economy, so it is virtually impossible for July to have amassed an army that would have been able to stop MC's army + reinforcements without any reinforcements.
I don't see what you're getting at, that's pretty much what he said. MC's push wouldn't have worked if he couldn't have forcefielded that much, and you can't forcefield that much unless you fully invest into the strat.
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I really don't think July was the better player in that series. In any case he hasn't proven it (and no, I will not accept "but July was a legend in BW you noob"). If you want to discuss the game I suggest going to the actual thread, but Ribbon made a great argument for why JulyZerg failed strategically and I much agree: he prepared for a strategy that he didn't actually receive, and his builds and timings betrayed it.
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EPT
